התמלול המלא של Michael Kessler- Why He Mails Strangers Free Music on CD

high. 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:47.199 And like I still like it still um, you know, introduced me to some you know really like meaningful people who are still in my you know ecosystem and I still talk to occasionally, but like uh at scale it was unsustainable. 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:50.399 So I that was probably 2021 or something. 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.040 Um I rebooted it in maybe 2023 or 24. 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:56.639 Honestly, I'm not sure anymore. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.240 Um, because it just runs in the background. 00:05:58.319 --> 00:05:59.040 I don't think about it. 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.079 I just see the orders and I I put them together. 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:06.480 Um at least two years now it's been running like nonstop. 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:31.279 Um and yeah, I tried a if you're familiar with the term VSL video sales letter, I uh I tried a new ad with that, which is basically it's me to camera uh making making a very sincere, unscripted entreaty to you know check me out. 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.319 And um I uh I think I also have an edge as a video editor. 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:39.680 I can make these things really snappy and organic. 00:06:39.839 --> 00:07:02.240 Um and uh yeah, that really resonated with people, I think, uh just like me face to face, um explaining what the hell I'm trying to do and giving people the option to look me up rather than like uh I don't know, in a in a canned way, kind of uh ramming down their throats. 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:07.439 That that being said, I've I've also seen success with like performance videos of me and my band playing. 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:10.160 Those have also worked too, but recently. 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:16.000 But the number one thing has been that video sales letter that has worked great. 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:17.839 So now it's it's interesting. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:27.199 I sell a book, it's called Quit Selling Your Shit, which is uh basically how creative businesses can be ruined by product first selling. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:44.639 So instead of like, here's my CD, here's my C D, you're like, no, it's it's sell yourself, sell Michael, sell Kytoon, sell the person behind it, because people are more willing to engage with another artist or with another person rather than just buying their 500th freaking CD, especially when everything is digital these days. 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.160 So I think it's really interesting that you know you you're well aware of this. 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:50.160 You're you're like, and this is actually and it works. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.560 So I I love having this conversation because this book that I sell says do exactly what you're doing. 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.519 You had no idea this book existed, you had no idea I existed. 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.720 Yet you're using the same technique, and you're like, this shit works. 00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:08.000 So yeah, I mean, I'm glad to I'm glad to see more people are adopting the philosophy behind it. 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:21.439 I mean, if you're a small business, like that's kind of the uh it's it's one of the few remaining edges you have over, you know, corporations is absolutely personalization and human the human touch. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:22.639 So right. 00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:28.240 So I found you on Instagram offering to give away your music on physical disc if someone's willing to cover that shipping. 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.839 So that's the opposite of how most musicians are taught to think about their work. 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:34.080 So where did the idea originally come from? 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:40.320 And what have you learned about the people who say yes to that offer versus the people who scroll right past it? 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:54.960 Um I I think the the thought behind it originally was so you know, the cost of shipping large like CDs are very inexpensive to make, especially in mass. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:04.480 Like the I I've I started ordering like 100 at a time, 200 at a time, and you know, your cost per CD at that level is two to three dollars. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:10.320 I'm now ordering batches of like 2,000 at a time, and that's less than a dollar per CD. 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:37.200 So, you know, with shipping recouped, very low cost to me, and I am uh, you know, um the I am I'm just trying to, you know, uh find people who uh genuinely um are into what I'm doing and in a way that grabs your attention. 00:09:37.360 --> 00:10:11.679 I mean like music has become so commodified now, like I I guess it's the put an important distinction for me that maybe doesn't apply to so many musicians is like I really genuinely don't care about the vanity metrics, like streaming numbers or followers, and this ad strategy does not if that's all you care about, this is a very inefficient way to go about growing your streaming numbers. 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:18.159 Like you could just buy those, like from a you know, an AI bot farm or something. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:21.200 Um I genuinely don't care. 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:32.960 So I uh like having a smaller but like but like real, like you know, somewhat diehard fan base is way cooler and more enticing to me. 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:40.559 And like I'm far more likely to find those people by kind of taking a taking a leap and and you know extending, I don't know. 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:55.679 I'm I can try a bunch of different metaphors for this ad strategy, but you know, called an olive branch, like you know, here, like I also physical media is is really uh uh you know it's making a big comeback. 00:10:55.919 --> 00:11:05.919 Like granted, like I don't even listen to to physical CDs, but like there's such a huge contingent of of music lovers out there who just love having them. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:10.960 And this those are also like those are intentional music fans. 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.559 So the the the whole point

of this is just to find those people specifically. 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:22.559 Um second question: what are these people like? 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:35.200 I think I partially answered that uh my long ramble, but um yeah, I mean, like it's not your typical, you know, casual music listener who's taking this offer most of the time. 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:48.559 Like um, there are plenty of people who just take the five dollar shipping, you know, cost and and the one CD and get it and then never and then unsubscribe from my mailing list and then never follow up. 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.759 But that that's the minority though, genuine, genuinely. 00:11:51.919 --> 00:12:00.639 Like most people stick around, like most people stay on my mailing list after that, um, which is nice. 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:09.679 Uh, and I don't abuse it because you know that's like you know, everyone's the email is a sacred thing. 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.480 Uh and my email list is really important to me. 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:20.720 So um yeah, I mean I found them to be very, very uh intentional, like active music fans. 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:31.440 They're typically you know, taking the initiative and looking into more about Kytune and and just like the super fan type of person. 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:44.000 Not every person who takes this offer is a super fan, but like um there are plenty of people who I would qualify as that who uh have discovered me through this. 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:54.799 So yeah, it's just a it's just a a higher caliber of music listener and customer, you know, in terms of in terms of sales and whatnot. 00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:10.559 Because like who spends$35,$40 on a random any artist like who they just that I the people haven't even heard my music yet, and they they they will buy all three CDs just to discover in real time uh what it is. 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:11.840 That's crazy. 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.960 I I can hardly imagine doing that. 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:20.960 So I think I I think with the offer that I saw that I took advantage of is the first CD was for free, and I was like, yeah, just pay for shipping. 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:22.879 I'm like, yeah, sure, I could do I can what's five bucks, right? 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.039 And then you're like, hey, no, no, wait, because you have a sales funnel. 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:31.279 And for those of you who aren't familiar with what a funnel is, it's basically one thing that leads to another thing that leads to another thing that eventually gets you to pay for something. 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.720 And so the original offer was one CD for free plus shipping. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:35.519 I'm like, okay. 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.440 And then you're like, hey, wait, wait, I got a second CD. 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:40.159 You want me to throw this one in with no cost, just throw it in there as well. 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.000 I'm like, well, shit, yeah, that's a great deal.

00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:50.720 And then the third one, which is the one that I think is brilliant, you're like, I also have this new CD coming out, and you're like, you just have to pay for the CD though, but I'll throw it in with the other two since you're already getting the shipment. 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.559 And it's brilliant marketing in that regard. 00:13:52.720 --> 00:13:54.960 And I did, I bought all three because I was like, well, why the hell not? 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:55.279 You know? 00:13:55.440 --> 00:14:04.320 Um, and it's brilliant marketing because it's this, it's taking those little steps, that little offer, and it's like, uh, yeah, and this is like you're, and I know you didn't come up with this. 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:13.360 I mean, this is marketing strategies 101 here, but it's like taking that idea of here's something for free, you're already invested, and just for a little bit extra, you can help me out, you get something in return. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.559 It's newer, and so then you can continue to support me as an artist. 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:19.519 And it's just a brilliant funnel to work to walk people through. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.600 And I didn't feel at any time like you were pressing me because the option was always yes or no. 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:27.120 And I could have at any time been like, nah, just give me the free shit, let me get out of here. 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.759 But I just love that it just played out really well. 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.799 And you know, when you were talking in that video, your music is in the background. 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.320 So, I mean, obviously, I was like, okay, I had an idea of what I was getting into. 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:37.759 It does fit with what I listened to. 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:38.559 So I was like, Yeah. 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.879 Plus, as soon as I saw it, I was like, Yeah, I'm interested in this. 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.200 I jumped over to Spotify and I'm like, yeah, let's listen to you. 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.200 And I'm like, yeah, this is kind of shit that I'd like to listen to. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.720 So I'm like, all right, let's grip the CDs. 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.759 And so paying that little bit of an ups charge for an actual CD, I'm like, yeah, that works for me. 00:14:51.840 --> 00:15:00.559 And it's for those entrepreneurs who are listening, who are trying to do something to get those grassroots movements to go going on here, you're not saying you have to give away everything for free. 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:06.559 You're like, this is a marketing strategy, and eventually you can charge for something and people will take advantage of that. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:13.519 And I'm pretty sure that if I had to guess, you're probably like 20%, maybe 30% of people who actually pay for the last CD. 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:14.720 Is that about right? 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:20.879 Um well, let me first slight

correction, actually. 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:25.039 That second CD is there, that is a charge. 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.679 That's like, I think right now it's like seven dollars or something. 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:33.840 So both are up sales, but if you get all three, it's 35. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:39.679 Um, the number of people who take all three, yeah, I mean, at least 20, 30 percent. 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.000 I mean, some, yeah, I mean it depends on the on the week. 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.759 I feel like it's been going up as time goes on, which is crazy. 00:15:45.919 --> 00:16:00.879 I think it's just the ad that it's just people are I don't know if it's people changing or if it's like Meta's algorithm finding the right people at a lurk cost, but it's a good, it's a good chunk of people, it's more than enough to offset the loss that I see. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.399 Okay, so then what's the full size? 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.559 What's the full price then on the third CD thing? 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:09.600 Um, if you get all three through this offer, it's 35. 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.039 Uh that that includes. 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:12.559 Okay. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:13.759 Um and that's at a discount. 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:23.360 So those those other two CDs I give you the option to get, and if you get them like with the free plus shipping and handling CD, you're getting it at a significant discount. 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.480 Like both of those are almost twice as much if you just buy them solo. 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.120 So that's kind of the incentive there. 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:29.679 Okay. 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.279 So I mean it it just it makes sense. 00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:35.440 And the only reason we're breaking it down like this is because I want the listeners to understand this is this is the process. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.799 And so, yeah, and thank you for correcting me because I hate it when I get this things wrong. 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:40.399 So feel free to correct me in some way. 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:42.960 So there's no ego here. 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:47.840 We're good at so, but every CD that you ship goes out with a handwritten note and your signature. 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.360 So, in a world where most transactions are frictionless and automated, you chose friction on purpose. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:57.360 So you're giving out uh physical media, personal notes, real postage. 00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:00.639 So, what made you to decide to slow the transaction down? 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.799 And what does that cost you in time versus what it gives back? 00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:07.680 It is a significant time investment. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.279 The main reason I want to do that, well, there are two. 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:19.839 The main reason I like to do it is I don't want people to think like I'm drop shipping these CDs, having someone else fulfill them, and I'm not involved in this at all. 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:25.440 Like it's not a it's not like a turnkey type of operation. 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:27.680 Like I physically, it's an event. 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:40.160 Like I sit down, I'll put a movie on in the background, and for like an hour or two, I will hand, you know, assemble all these orders, sign all the CDs, put the notes in. 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.240 It is a it is a time suck. 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:54.640 It turns what would otherwise be, you know, to do like say 30 orders that would take me maybe 20 to 30 minutes, maybe less, if I wasn't signing all the CDs. 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:59.680 But to sign them, I have to take them out of the shrink wrap because I can't get them without shrink wrap, which is super annoying. 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.200 And then open it, and I'm going through Sharpies left and right. 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:10.480 Honestly, and then the stickers that I put in there, like that's that's also a huge, a huge cost, uh, if you add it all up. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.240 Um, but I also buy those. 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.200 That's that's such a large quantity that's been going down too. 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:34.960 Um but what I get back is uh oh the second thing I wanted to say is uh that there are so many people who who find the intrinsic value of a signature from someone who they've never heard of before to have so much potential. 00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:39.839 I think a lot of people like the signature because they think maybe someday it will be worth something. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:46.880 I you know, I'm not encouraging people to assume that, but like that also gives it inherent value. 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:57.039 Um but uh yeah, I mean the the what I get back is just the genuine, you know, fan connection there. 00:18:57.119 --> 00:18:58.559 Like that's really important to me. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:12.559 I love talking to people and hearing from people who get what I'm doing and empathize, and you know, um, you know, from a music standpoint or from a lyrical standpoint, like I don't know, it means that means so much to me. 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:26.799 Like I love making music at face value, and I'd be doing that even without validation, but like hearing getting getting validation from people and like actually talking to people who get what I'm doing, it's something something that I never thought would happen in my life, really. 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:29.279 Like uh it's really cool. 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:42.720 So I just I want to I want to lead with that um intention and and you know uh just just yeah, make it as human as possible. 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.960 Like that's the whole that's the whole point of this to me. 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:48.160 I I love it. 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:56.480 I love that at that uh approach to it because especially in this age where everything has become AI, everything, you know, it's really nice to see a personal touch to

it. 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:03.359 And what I've what I've recognized being because I'm creative, I've been doing art for over 20 years now, is that it's a pendulum. 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.480 And when AI came out, everybody was like, jump in ship, get rid of the humans, let's just do AI, and they're like, oh, but the stuff we're getting is not good. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:17.920 And so now they're coming back, and they're like, We're so tired of everything being AI, we want something from a human being, and we want to be assured that's coming from a human being. 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:23.440 So I think the fact that you're signing it, it it's like that justification this was made by humans. 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:31.359 Yes, and you're and you're it's touched by humans, it's not all automated, it's not drop shipping, it's not doing something that takes the human being out of it. 00:20:31.440 --> 00:20:40.480 And so they're directly representing you and and talking and and communicating with a real human being who does the effort. 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.039 And I think it's it's yeah, great and it's it's perfect. 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:44.880 I like doing it. 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.400 That's the whole reason. 00:20:46.559 --> 00:21:02.559 If I was make if I was doing music to to fucking, you know, uh um you know, just just get make a quick buck, which you know, who's ever said that in the past 20 to 30 years? 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:06.319 Like, it's not lucrative, but like I do this because I like to do it. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:13.599 I like making music and I like uh playing it and you know, talking to people. 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:26.640 Um, and like I don't want to people to think for a second that AI is involved in any aspect of it, like because it's not, and like it never has been, and it's not it's not gonna be now. 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:33.759 And we're at a point now where everyone questions everything creative, which is totally warranted. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:47.839 Um, I want to make it as clear as possible, you know, that like I write and produce my own music, and like this is uh yeah, this is a very a very sincere uh operation. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:54.240 I could save myself so much time by not signing these CDs and not doing the stickers. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:59.440 Um and I don't even know how much of an impact that would have on on. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:50.079 the you know uh conversion rate but like um i i'm almost stubborn about it like i i have the same mentality as the Costco guy with the hot dogs it's just like I um I feel so little pressure at the moment to like lower my or whatever like I I'll make obvious decisions here and there to like make this whole thing that I'm doing efficient as I get more and more orders every week like I have to find ways to um do it quicker and um if I can find a way to produce these CDs for even less I will as long as it doesn't diminish the quality but I will never stop doing it myself you know that's that's kind of really important to me. 00:22:50.400 --> 00:23:55.279 And I I think that's that's the takeaway right here is that it's one you enjoy it you're doing what you love to do and you know yeah it's a little bit more work on your end but that work isn't a burden it's just part of the job you know you it'd be the same thing if you're sitting at a table at your concert signing merch as people are walking by it's the exact same thing you're just doing it en masse using online uh sales as as an aspect of it totally I just think it's it's it's it's a it's a smart approach to doing this especially for a person who no offense is not a big name yeah you know no like absolutely I think I think the merch table uh analogy is a really good one because at concerts so many people will go to the merch table like you entice people to come by saying hey come come talk to me come hang out people will do that and it's like but for like of course they will like like if why who wouldn't want to talk to the artist that has you know like people people are I don't know it's it I don't see why it why you can't do that in a in a digital medium. 00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:00.000 I I've grown up on the computer it's talking to people online is very organic to me. 00:24:00.240 --> 00:25:05.839 Yeah um so yeah I just kind of want to make I want I don't I'm I I don't want to pretend like there are any barriers uh between you know you the listener or fan and and me I am genuinely there's that's such a big music industry thing that's like left over from the the the 90s and before where the artist is this um you know this deity this un unreachable you know um um person on a pedestal and it's just like there are no more there's no there's there are no more barriers to entry like anybody can do this and just a regular person um I do not I respond to artists in the same way like I prefer to I I get more and I feel more listening to artists who present themselves as human beings and don't try to fake it till they make it like that's that's also almost a genre specific thing too at this point. 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:39.920 Well some genres are doing that more than others like pop and rock for sure like people like to pretend that they have way more fans than they do or they'll they'll um you know beef up their Instagram or TikTok followers with with you know bots which only you're shooting yourself in the foot by doing that because now you can't actually reach the real people um but they just like the way it looks and they think like they're they're they're doing that to appeal to the industry. 00:25:40.079 --> 00:27:54.960 They want record labels to see that because they think they need to find a record label and not appeal to the to the fan which is the the customer in this term in the in the in this context like the your your pe that's yeah I get I'm getting I get flustered talking about this because it makes me so mad and annoyed and it's like

so many indie artists who are focused on um catering to what they think uh like industry bigwigs want to see and it's like they don't they don't give a shit unless you're making money that's the only thing they care about I'm not I'm not saying that to like to like um condemn you know the music industry that's just that's how it is it's a business so you all you're but so many people just neglect like refuse to grasp that concept and think like they're gonna fool like uh some like I don't know like scooter bronze gonna see you with a hundred thousand purchased Instagram followers is gonna DM you and be like oh my god how did this person not have representation yet right that's not real that's never gonna happen that's not a thing if you if you're if you're not interested in talking to your actual fans the people who listen to you and you're only interested in and um you know this vanity metrics and the your your preconceived notion of what you know success the music industry is uh you're you're fucked like it's just not gonna work like you shouldn't be doing it you it's not gonna work it makes me sound no it it won't and it's it's the same with any uh creative outlet it's whenever you know because everybody's like oh I I need a I need an agent and I need a publisher to publish my book no you can self-publish the thing is you go to an agent to get your book published and they're like okay how many people are you bringing along who are going to buy your book because nobody knows who you are you're like oh okay well I've got X amount of people well you know you need to be at uh this other value first and they have to be people who are willing to buy because of the exact same it's a business they're here to make money they're not signing you because they think you're cool or that your music is good or your product is good. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:59.839 They're hiring you because they know they can make a dollar off of you by getting you into their market. 00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:10.880 But you've got to work twice as hard then and then you start it's a whole freaking argument about selling out which I which I hate because we want to as creatives be successful. 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:18.640 Success does not mean that you're selling out what's selling out is when you go sign with these companies and you are no longer you who was signed in there. 00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:28.640 You become whatever the industry wants you to be because then they can move money and you make less they make more that's that's selling out but you now have the fame that goes with it. 00:28:28.720 --> 00:29:24.480 But that again that fame is fake it's it's a false idol that you're creating of yourself when the reality is if you would have just stuck with who you are found your audience whatever way you wanted to do it stayed true to them those fans will elevate you way more than the fake fame that you get for from selling out right and you own your business like you're not selling

a piece of it for no reason to a record record labels haven't really done anything for artists like in a long time unless you're at such a scale that you genuinely need a business entity to manage all of your um physical music and merchandise and stuff like you're at a and even even then I still wouldn't do a record label because like they're they're I'm I say this as someone who works in the music business beyond just being an artist like they are very inefficient at managing businesses. 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:34.480 Like whatever it is they're get a small business loan before you take an advance from a record label. 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:38.960 Like you're gonna get a better interest rate and like the terms are going to be better. 00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:40.000 Don't do it. 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:59.279 But so many people really want to because they like the way it sounds right um yeah no you everything uh you said I feel like was spot on um and the music industry hasn't developed talent from scratch in decades. 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:44.000 That is not a thing that stopped being a thing when uh iTunes came out like people and people stopped buying music and the the the scale of the music industry shrunk drastically like it hasn't been as big as it was since because there's just not as much money as as there used to be um so yeah just just any any opportunity I get to dispel those myths I'll go I'll I'll I'll go on this rant but glad to give you the platform man yeah thank you all right so you describe yourself as a sludge beast making murky synth pop songs about depression from your bedroom that's not a traditional marketing pitch but it's completely specific and completely honest. 00:30:44.160 --> 00:31:12.960 So for creative entrepreneurs who've been told to clean up their image and make their work more broadly appealing what does your experience say about the value of being exactly what you are instead of what the market wants you to be I think that this is only fun for me if I can be myself like and so from a just from a longevity point of view I feel like if I'm not doing that it's not gonna work out for me because I'm gonna want to stop doing it. 00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:19.839 And uh so that's the purest reason why I'm doing it. 00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:29.359 Like it's no image I'm crafting I have other things that I like to do that make more money than making music. 00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:41.359 So if I decide that I need to craft some persona or image that I'm not and I and it's more work to keep up like I'm just not gonna want to do that for very long. 00:31:41.680 --> 00:33:12.799 So um for me as an artist that's where that language comes from that's just like the those descriptions that you read off of me each one is from a different time period and it's always just like stream of consciousness like oh I have to type a bio here and that's what I put uh there's a recurring theme of slime and sludge um and yeah I don't know it's just a

fixation of mine I find I find it so funny my podcast uh called the slime zone that we ran for a for a while uh yet another iteration of that so yeah I love putting my personality out there um I love I love comedy and any opportunity to you know um flex my weird idiosyncrasies uh because there are plenty of people who there are plenty plenty of people who find it really annoying and off putting and that's fine because you're not my people those aren't your customers yeah you're not my people so exactly no hard feelings I'm trying to find the people who to get it it's the lowest energy approach for me because I don't have to I don't have to um you know I there's uh what's the word I'm looking for like there's no there's no um I don't have to dress it up at all it's very it's very easy and low effort for me if I can always speak in my own voice. 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:15.119 So that's my approach. 00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.240 It doesn't it doesn't kill the momentum of you doing your job. 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:30.559 If every day you're like oh shit I got to put on my outfit you know I got to put on this personality that I'm not so that I can do the thing that I I want to do but I don't think anybody's going to appreciate it unless I'm performing as this other thing. 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:31.200 Right. 00:33:31.359 --> 00:35:45.519 Or you can't put out this is the guy who's dressed as a barkeep in a fake guitar who's talking to people I was like but this is literally like who I am I was like I'm just gonna go out here and be this guy who wants to talk to cool people but it it's very much just that it's like like I do this because I'm having fun you know it's like in there's oh what is it like 11 million podcasts I think right now is currently on iTunes and it's like you stand out in anything like that like you don't do something that's gonna bring you joy to take a risk like do something different just do something different like uh and and if if the the path of least resistance to doing something different is being as genuine and organic as possible like do that that's the way you know at least in in my case with music like with other things like you know I'm not saying everything needs to be completely uh you know unfiltered and organic like like your podcast or or other like storytelling podcasts like that's that's um you know a more intentionally creative endeavor but as an artist like Kytune specifically Kytune is me so um that's where all of that comes from whatever I happen to be at whatever point in time in my life like that's what Kytune is so I can keep it very that way yeah there's there's an evolution to being a human it's it's my favorite story is Trent Reznor Nine Inch Nails I'm sure you're very familiar with so so back in the 90s you know he was his first album he recorded he was actually the maintenance cleanup crew for the studio that he worked in and at night he could use the equipment as long as he did his job and so he created

these and it was a very angsty very angry we'd go watch you know downward spiral and concert and it's very angry aggressive music but then he's still touring today yeah and you go there and they're wearing cardigans and they're up there rocking it out and and you know they are asking trends they're like you know your your audience wants that super aggressive you know hungry artist from the 90s is like I'm a multimillionaire like that's not my problem anymore. 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:59.199 Yeah you know it's like I can't be that because I evolved like everyone else should evolve and to want to capture him in that moment and say that you cannot grow from this is it's a denial of life for that artist. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.440 You have to be willing to grow to see where they go to it. 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.400 Same thing with like you too or any of any of these major bands. 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:14.239 So the fact that you're just naming it right now you're like no it's you're gonna see the evolution of my life because I write about who I am and what is going on and there's nothing wrong with that. 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:21.199 Yeah I can't be writing angsty like love songs about rejection or unrequited love. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:27.519 I can't be doing that for the rest of my life like I'm in a I'm in a very happy like stable long-term relationship now. 00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:35.280 I mean I eventually the content of my music has to evolve and I'm more than happy to let it do that again. 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:47.920 Yeah I it's the only way I can I can keep this up you know so by day you shoot and edit videos for other musicians through Vanity Project by night you make the Kytune records in your bedroom. 00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:49.199 I don't even know what's in your bedroom. 00:36:49.280 --> 00:37:10.159 Okay it's just what your bio says yeah so for creative entrepreneur it hasn't been my bedroom for a while but you know it's my house so close enough there you there you go in your house there we go all right so for creative entrepreneurs who are doing the same split commercial work funding the passion project how do you keep the two from colliding and what does the video work give the music and what does the music give the video work? 00:37:10.719 --> 00:38:00.000 Uh I'll start with what the music gives the video work because approaching you know my my video work and and and projects there with the experience and like mindset um and understanding of what it's like to be an artist allows me it gives me an edge of other videographers who aren't musicians but who work here in Nashville like I I can you know empathize and and and think creatively and understand you know the the environment that I'm in working in in music videos and and concerts and um performance shoots and whatnot. 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:07.920 It's like the all the shorthand I already know and I can ask you know um important questions. 00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:24.880 I know

what to shoot like if I'm shooting um you know I I I shoot a lot of like bluegrass stuff sometimes and uh just as a music fan like I know what bluegrass fans want to see they want to see people's hands specifically you know that's a big thing. 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:41.440 Whereas like a conventional you know production studio has never worked with artists before might not know that and they don't get any you know close ups of hands or they don't get they don't know what you know when a solo is happening because they don't know they don't some people just don't have an ear for music at all. 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:45.119 That's not me like taking a dump on people. 00:38:45.199 --> 00:39:00.079 It's just genuinely like some people just were born without that um but those plenty of those people are out there you know uh working in you know video and film and that that can make it hard to work in in this particular facet of it. 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:01.840 So that's helpful. 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:17.039 Um and uh vice versa I mean I produce all of my own music and all my own videos and um both you know video editing and music production. 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:41.920 I mean there's so many parallels between the two technically and creatively um you know uh I'm working in to use technical terms like nonlinear editors uh for for both you know I use all the Adobe software for video and um for music you know I mostly use FL Studio but you know I use Ableton sometimes or Pro Tools and whatever. 00:39:42.159 --> 00:40:20.960 So um being very very technologically savvy as an independent artist is extremely useful uh and saves me lots of money and gives me an edge over even other indies because I feel like I can approach this stuff at a semi-professional level um which a lot of people at my level as an artist don't have access or the funds for you know as a videographer I work for other friends at all the time at a discount but a lot of the times like they just can't afford the the services that I'm able to provide myself as much as I want. 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:26.000 So that's really uh yeah that's a that's a very practical application there. 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:58.960 So how do you how do you deal with the people that you have to say no like obviously they want you they're like oh you've got the skills you've got the ear you've got the vision you want all of this but we're broke I mean you know historically like I will I will really try and reach a compromise and you know like I I can't devalue the work that I do too much because once I start you know making crazy friend deals like then everyone's my friend and you know uh all that's a lot of work that I'm doing for nothing. 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:20.800 I already probably do too much uh too many friend deals but I try and keep a cap on that I'll either most people um and especially like friends like people understand and like respect the the the value of what I'm doing and like know like how busy I

am and um it's usually not a problem. 00:41:20.880 --> 00:42:18.000 I haven't had anyone get genuinely offended uh at the rates that I give them I think most people know like this is a very you know um like it's practically a a trade you know it's like everyone can kind of edit video a lot but to do it at you know the the level and scale that I do takes thousands of hours and so much equipment and um you know like it just there's just there's fair rates for that stuff that are are are pretty standard so um yeah uh that that said like I love doing work for for for friends who don't normally have access to like really good video gear or or video editing I love doing it as much as I can I just can't do it all the time. 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:20.880 So just situation specific. 00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:52.559 Absolutely absolutely so switching gears so you answer every DM is what you is that's actually the one thing that got me is like you because I was watching your plead video of like buying the CDs but at the end you're like if you you know I'll answer every DM if you DM me and I'm like all right let's test this and this was this this invite to this podcast was through that DM I said hey I just bought your music I run this weird podcast I like to talk to artists I was wondering if you'd like to be a guest and you actually replied within within like 24 hours too I'll I'll give you you know applaud you for that one because usually you're like wait months or whatever. 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:52.880 Right. 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:54.159 So you actually did that. 00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:59.599 You also ship uh CDs with handwritten notes you give the music away to get it into the right hands. 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:16.000 So what does it feel like when it works when someone finds Kytunes who actually needed it and what does it that tell you about what creative entrepreneurs are actually looking for when they say they want a bigger audience when it works it is incredibly validating to me. 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:23.679 It feels like um it's almost like the it closes the loop of why I like to do this. 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:54.320 Like I start with an idea for a song and and do all the work producing I've created this whole brand that is Kitune and and you know you have to understand a lot of people don't know what they want out of it when they start a lot of people do music purely because they want to be on an elevated platform literally in front of a lot of people like and that is where their their goals end. 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:58.320 It's like I don't care what it takes like I don't care who it is. 00:43:58.480 --> 00:47:37.840 I just want to be uh uh uh on an elevated platform a stage um in front of a lot of human bodies and if that is your sole motivator uh the strategy and and the approach that i take to to my music career uh is insane and and ineffectual to you that then that is so many people that i know um because i try and you know i get i've plenty of musician friends or or acquaintances who are struggling to you know grow their audience or whatever and like i tell them exactly what i'm doing or give them genuine uh advice and most people don't take it and continue doing the the wrong thing in my opinion because they're they want to be in an elevated platform in front of a lot of people and they think the best way to do that is to get the attention of a record label so um those people I cannot help um I'm trying to remember your original question uh you refreshed so I said uh so basically the the question was is uh so is what does that tell you about what creative entrepreneurs are actually looking for when they say they want a bigger audience sure um yeah I guess depending on how they would uh a fellow creative entrepreneur would react to me describing the strategy to them tells me um if their heart's really in it you know if you uh if you can't be satisfied with with an a a niche but you know rabid fan base if that if if that doesn't um excite you then you know maybe reevaluate what you really want to be doing uh specifically with with music but in in creative entrepreneurship in general because there are so many like you said everyone has a podcast everyone's making music um physical art too I mean digital art like AI generated art nothing's real anymore so you kind of it and reaching like the you know global phenomenon level like it there is no there is no guaranteed path there no matter how talented or how hardworking you are even with the benefit of nepotism it's still not a guarantee that you become that you need all you need a confluence of so many lucky things to happen so if you can't envision yourself long term being happy with uh with a again incredibly like with a cult following I I think I think you know maybe yeah like I said maybe maybe take a step back and and and reevaluate why you want to be a creative entrepreneur in the first place because everything's a cult following now like yeah there's some the everything is segmented and that's fine that's I think it's great like I think there's more great music more great films um podcasts storytelling like there's more great everything now than ever before because there's so much of it and it's we're just beyond the point of one thing dominating you know the cultural zeitgeist at a time it's just there's just so much now that's just not really a thing. 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:53.840 So yeah I also think that you can as a when you find those fans I think that there is the possibility that those those fans are going to be more genuine genuinely fans than people who like when Seinfeld was on and the only thing is like what'd you watch on Thursday night? 00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:58.400 Same thing everybody else watched on Thursday night because there were four channels like this is what we had to do. 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:17.360 It's like no it's it's the same thing but now we've it we've opened that up and you can niche down

as much as you want and find those fans and stick with that fandom I think what a lot of people don't understand is that especially with creative entrepreneurs is that you're yes fame and fortune would be awesome but the reality is so is comfort. 00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:49.119 Owning a home being able to pay your bills on time while doing the thing that you actually enjoy doing there's something to be said about that especially in this day and age when people who have real jobs who are hate it absolutely miserable still can't make their damn rent every single month but here you are doing something that you enjoy doing on multiple venues but then you're also like making a success you are comfortable and you don't necessarily have to be ultra wealthy to be comfortable you just but you're you know there's something to be to be gathered from that. 00:48:49.519 --> 00:49:14.239 I would also add like even even towards the path of becoming like massive a massive creative entrepreneur comedian or musician or filmmaker whatever I think approaching your work and community building there as if it were a cult following from the beginning is the best way to get there. 00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:26.239 Like genuinely um like people are so fatigued and oversaturated with commercial everything. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:50:13.280 The artists that break through now are ones that start with cult following so many artists go unrecognized forever and they're content that I mean Chapel Roan if you know music like Chapel Roan forever was pretty obscure but she had like a cult following same with Charlie XCX um those are the only two I can think of right now but like there's so many that that fit that description and um yeah just keep that in mind I just wanted to add like I don't want to say becoming you know like very successful and and and you know even like wealthy like exorbitantly wealthy is completely unattainable. 00:50:13.519 --> 00:51:01.519 I just think like if you if you approach your your creative business you know like with that as your as your sole goal like you're probably not gonna get there you know I feel like that clouds your judgment in so many ways um and that doesn't you doesn't really you just have to recognize like your your customer your fan you know that they uh you have to you have to respect people's intelligence and and if it seems like you're you're out you're just you're not really you're perpetually unhappy with the scale of your fandom or whatever like that's like disrespectful to the people who are there and really invested you know like don't take it for granted. 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:13.360 No absolutely absolutely not and that's and it speaking of like that with like with they want to have this influence and I I've talked to enough high school kids or whatever I'm like what do you want to do with your life I want to be an influencer or I want to be a YouTube star. 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:16.079 I want to be on Twitch I want to be Twitch famous or whatever. 00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:20.480 But I'm like you guys have to have you have to stand for something like you can't influence on nothing. 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:30.079 You have to influence doing something that you are ultimately passionate about but also almost an expert in so that you can influence other people who are not at that level. 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:31.920 I mean that's the whole point behind it. 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:40.159 And to be honest with those people who are who are following you I mean you've got to one put in all the work yourself and then and be true to it. 00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:45.760 If you tried to be liked by everyone you're gonna gray out you're gonna not be who you are. 00:51:45.920 --> 00:52:06.400 It's better to like like you're doing stand on your own two feet do the things that you want to do unapologetically and then your fans find you and then you're also not disregarding those people who like oh I knew Michael back when you know he was he was pushing CDs at the back of an alley after a show where three people showed up you know that kind of that kind of gig I mean it's like that's that's true. 00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:13.360 If you ignored those people then you would have a heart you'd be losing people as fast as you're gaining people rather than building this really solid base. 00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:19.039 Yeah for sure absolutely so your your second album is called Heartbreak Simulator. 00:52:19.199 --> 00:53:47.119 You've described it as journaling your dubious life decisions in the form of 11 emotionally tinged tunes quitting your job a breakup hitting the gym finding love losing it and finding it again for creative entrepreneurs who are sitting on real messy personal material and wondering if it's too much to share, what made you decide to put all of that on a disc and ship it to strangers I think like people who are who are so um so guarded about their like personal life and and but like want to share it they're just like worried about I don't know I just think getting people to care in the first place is such a huge achievement like whatever you're whatever you're nervous about sharing um because for whatever reason like but it's in your art and you just think it's too this or that like just put it out I feel like people probably aren't going to care in the first place and if they do it's gonna be endearing um you know and and real it's just like it's just you know um yeah again I people the word authenticity is set it's been it's been used and abused in in music over the past you know five to ten years where everyone wants to appear to be authentic. 00:53:47.280 --> 00:54:09.119 But if you try too hard to appear to be authentic you come off as inauthentic and um I think I think true authenticity is like just again like I'm not saying everyone has to be an open book I just if it's something that you put in your art and you want to share I think just just do it and take risks.

00:54:09.280 --> 00:55:02.159 I'm so big on taking risks with with this in particular because like it's again it's so oversaturated and the worst what's the worst that's gonna happen like if you put something out like you think it might be cringy like to some people it's like that's the worst thing but it's like you're not un you're not like setting fire to your career your brand right if people are already that invested in you um then you've already you've already succeeded at quite quite a quite a fair amount like um yeah I think don't presume that your life is so interesting and people are so invested already that you have to be super guarded about the art that you want to put out like that that is presumptuous. 00:55:02.320 --> 00:55:35.840 I think you I think what what hasn't been heard before um are you know your specific life experiences you know like there are a million generic love songs you've been getting them en masse since since recording technology was developed a hundred years ago like like what you have to bring to the table is your specific experience you know if you aren't interested in writing about that then maybe become a commercial songwriter. 00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:54.719 That's something that I decided I didn't want to do when I moved to Nashville because that that meant I would have to I'd have to write vaguely you know and um write whatever you know publishing companies are interested in and you know buying right now and that's just not something that I want to do. 00:55:54.880 --> 00:56:10.960 If you want to be a creative entrepreneur um creativity is such a personal intimate thing I just think I mean unless it's grossly inappropriate like just put it out that's my that's my mindset anyway. 00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:16.239 Honestly if it is grossly uh put it out anyways because trust me your audience is out there. 00:56:16.480 --> 00:58:07.360 Yeah exactly I think it it really is the people yeah people are there's so many people who think and and feel exactly like you do no matter who you are no one is exempt from this like you're not as you're you're you're not as alone or or or unique in your life experiences or hangups or trauma as you think you are and to me I find that very comforting genuinely you know um so yeah whatever whatever weird story or experience you have to share that you think might be too specific to resonate with people artistically it's not that's the stuff that you should really be harvesting and and putting out there like that's interesting because if anything it makes you stand up yeah you know for sure it's all just it's all about standing out like we that's the only that's just that's gonna that's your greatest uh uh edge as an independent artist absolutely absolutely so all right so heading toward the end here so for adventurers listening that want to find car uh Kytune or they want to grab a CD or work with you on other uh creative projects where should they go um probably you know my Instagram like that's that's the platform I pay the most attention to um at Kytune Music that would be the place um to see what I'm up to hop on my email list too like that's kind of the besides Instagram the main destination uh I I treat my email list like first class citizens and everyone and then Instagram is sort of second class so um yeah the way to do that would be to go to my website somewhere on there kytoon.music I grabbed that URL they they started making dot music URLs I was front of I was first in line because I got an email about it. 00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:18.960 So nice nice all right perfect I'll have all of Michael's links in the show notes including kytoon.music where you can get your hands on the physical copy with the handwritten note from the restless bard himself. 00:58:19.199 --> 00:58:27.519 Trust me worth every penny of that free ship of that shipping cost okay so I want to thank Michael for pulling up a chair tonight and proving something that this tavern needed to hear. 00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.119 You don't have to become something else to find your audience. 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:38.719 You just have to be what you are completely, stubbornly and unapologetically and keep moving until the right people find you. 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:40.880 So here's what I want you to take away from tonight. 00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:58.159 The restless bard doesn't optimize he doesn't polish he doesn't perform for the algorithm he makes the murky thing ships it by hand signs every copy writes the note and trusts that somewhere out there is exactly the person who needed exactly this that person will find it. 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:10.880 It may not be today it may not be this week but the restless bard keeps moving town to town DM to DM handwritten note to handwritten note until the audience that was always meant to be his finally arrives. 00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:23.920 Creative entrepreneurs if you've been waiting to share your work until it's polished enough, optimized enough or commercial enough, Michael's question for you is simple what are you actually protecting it from the right people don't need it to be perfect. 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:25.519 They need it to be real. 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:31.760 So if Michael's story resonated findune at kytoon.music again I'll have the links in the show notes. 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.880 Get the CD you won't regret the shipping cost, okay? 00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:41.519 And before you go, I'd like you to head over to gamifybusiness.com forward slash quiz and take the Tavern personality quiz. 00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:58.480 You get to find out your class, your strengths, your blind spots, and how the brain approaches the adventure you'll get a free 11 page deep dive into your business personality at no cost, no catch, just clarity about the adventurer that you already are until next time remember business is an adventure don't be an NPC. 00:59:58.719 --> 00:59:59.519 Thanks