התמלול המלא של Creativity, Freedom, and the Courage to Begin

integrity very much like that. 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:43.759 We talked about how we hold it so central to who we are and what we do. 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:54.240 And I'm thinking about when we have integrity together, or as we hold integrity, what we know is there's a common trust that you're gonna do the right thing, right? 00:02:54.400 --> 00:03:06.080 I can kind of anticipate that you'll be consistent, you'll do the right thing, I'll do the right thing, even when no one is watching, even when it's difficult, because that's what it means to hold integrity, to have integrity, right? 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:21.199 Why I think this connects to creativity is because what we know in so much of the work that we do and what we know the moment needs for us to be able to unleash our most creative thinking, we know a main ingredient for that is trust. 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:34.319 You have to trust the folks you're engaging with so that you can really state your most audacious ideas, be your most creative genius, put it on the table with no fear of judgment, no fear of ridicule. 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:35.840 I'm not the most radical. 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:40.719 They're not gonna see me as crazy, but really the moment is calling for our most creative juices. 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:42.639 So I'm excited about this conversation. 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.240 You know I'm a classic creative. 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:45.199 Oh yeah. 00:03:46.080 --> 00:04:06.960 And it actually reminds me a lot of uh, I think how I got to know you, Shaka, and even my introduction to the work that we do together, MBI, the Haywood Burns Institute, and just thought um, I wanted to start off by kicking it to you to tell us a little bit about how you stumbled into this idea that creativity was the path for the future. 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.479 Yeah, you know, it takes me all the way back. 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:24.240 Like when I was in college, I went to the University of Wisconsin and Madison, and it was predominantly white university, and connecting with others, students of color, black folks, Latinos, Native American folks, South Asian. 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:38.240 Uh, we we came up with I really came up with this notion of create your own reality for organizing and like organizing to be creative about the time we were there because we were all trying to get our education, but we also wanted to have a meaningful impact. 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:52.399 Started organizing and getting involved in different things, running campaigns and what have you, and ended up meeting this woman who was from California and going out just to see her, you know, on a trip. 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:57.360 The root of every good story is a nice woman, a strong woman in that story. 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:03.759 Yes, yeah, we were together and she was a serious leader. 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:10.720 So she was from Oakland and was going home to see her parents, and I was like, Yeah, I would love to come out there and meet them. 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.399 And so, you know, we go out to Oakland, and you know, I'm loving it. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:20.240 And because it Wisconsin's freezing like in the wintertime, and most of the time, except for the summer. 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.959 And so it was great to get out and you know, just be out in Oakland. 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:35.920 It's funny because her dad was really good friends with James Bell, and at that time I didn't know him, but I had been to her dad's house, and there's a picture of him on the refrigerator. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:37.199 A picture of JB? 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.040 Yeah, her and her dad, right? 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:39.680 Hanging out. 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:41.519 So it's you know, it's his buddy. 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:42.800 And I'm like, who is that? 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:44.959 This guy looks like Forrest Whitaker, you know. 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:50.319 So she's like, Yeah, we're going to go to this barbecue at my dad's uh friend house. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.959 So we get there, and I finally got to meet him. 00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:04.959 And at some point in the evening, and you know, we were hanging out just talking, and we got into a whole discussion about, you know, whether someone should ever be locked up and what does that mean conceptually? 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:10.800 And he was talking about it in these ways that were just um mind-bending for me, right? 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:22.800 This whole notion that incarceration was not just being in a cage, but that this was a much larger concept of the criminal justice system and how social control was happening. 00:06:22.879 --> 00:06:37.279 And I I'm sitting there, you know, as a young organizer in college, I was just like, wow, I wish I would have met this man like maybe seven, eight months ago while we were in the middle of this campaign because he had such gems and understanding about how things all work. 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:42.079 And then come to find out, he tells me he's, you know, ready to launch his own organization. 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:48.000 And I was like, oh, okay, well, wait a minute, you know, like say more about that, right? 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:49.920 Because I was also about to graduate. 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.800 And you're young and you're in love and you're at a barbecue and you're thinking you need to make money. 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.000 Well, obviously, and you know, California's not cheap. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:06:58.959 You know what I mean? 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:16.399 And so decided, you know, I really was interested in what he was talking about and what he was trying to start in terms of this notion of the Burns Institute and bringing together what he knew about the system and how it worked, and this like legal mind. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:20.319 You know, this man was a brilliant legal mind, and I'm over here like, hmm. 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:30.240

Imagine blending that with some community organizing and really bringing in a strong, you know, relationship to these two major forces in the work. 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:32.560 It spoke to me in a deep way. 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:37.839 Because I had working at an university setting, it was like everybody's basically gonna be all right. 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.639 You know, you're at you're at college, you're at the University of Wisconsin. 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:46.959 It was like one of the you know,$1.5 billion annual budget, extremely well-resourced institution. 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:52.160 If you've made it here, you know, you technically you should be on track to be able to find success. 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:56.000 Where so many people I knew were not even on that track at all. 00:07:56.079 --> 00:08:04.399 And there was another track built for them, and it was huge and more well-funded, really, in terms of just the apparatus of of incarceration. 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:10.319 So that spoke to me that that was the work he wanted to do, and that he was trying to figure out something new. 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:15.279 He told me he was tired of suing these places that that wasn't working, right? 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:21.680 And that as far as I understood, there was, you know, everybody was like, You should go to law school, so you could you could go and you could do that kind of work. 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:23.439 You could sue people, you can make things happen. 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:33.200 And here I'm talking with somebody who had done all that, and he was like, Yeah, actually, that's not working for what I want to see, for the change that that I like to see. 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:42.399 And the fact that he was open to just looking at something that he had done with a lot of success and being real, like, and yet that's not enough. 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:44.720 You know, I had to reach for something more. 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:51.200 And so it it it I mean, it resonated with me at in at the cellular level in my soul. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.639 I was like, oh, you know, right, I'm definitely wanting to get down. 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:16.000 And so we connected, and I was able to start working with him right when he launched the Burns Institute with Ophelia Williams, who also uh was hired with me at the same time, and Shannon Farley, and it was a little small crew of us, but we really got to tap into our creative juices because there was no roadmap for what we were trying to do. 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:23.919 So, Shaq, let me ask, you you use this metaphor around tracks a lot, train tracks, the different directions it can take you. 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:27.600 Dive into that a little bit, like unpack that for folks listening. 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:33.279 I mean, yeah, all my life I just, you know, I played sports, and so they would see me, or you're a big black kid. 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:41.519 So you get put into this track

of playing sports, and then you get into school and you have a relationship to that institution. 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:50.559 And for me, that was always contentious because I could get my work done and get good grades, but they would say I was being disruptive and then would want to punish me. 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:57.120 So I got put on a track there where all of a sudden I'm getting taken out of the class, they're calling my mom all the time. 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:02.399 There's all these repercussions for how I'm just being in the class, as far as I understood. 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:05.519 I wasn't trying to be disruptive, I wasn't being disrespectful. 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.440 I had good grades, but yet it was just constant. 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:17.600 I also got, because of my behavioral issues in public school, I got to go on the Scared Straight program where they take you to local jail. 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:23.919 And you get to see, you get to see that experience because apparently your behavior is telling them that they think you're gonna be in trouble. 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.000 Now, mind you, they didn't ask my mother about whether she wanted me to go on this program. 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:29.360 So they brought me there. 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:36.320 And I'm well, I'm standing in the little viewing area over the waiting area of the rec room, and it's you know, hundreds of people in there. 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:38.720 They're mostly all black folks. 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.039 And the first thing I thought was, well, this wouldn't be that bad. 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:45.679 Because I'll be in here with all these black folks. 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:48.159 Honestly, that was the first thing I thought. 00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:50.240 It was like this wouldn't even be that bad. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:52.559 It was not what they had intended. 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.559 It wasn't like I wanted to go be there. 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.840 I also saw very clearly what this was about. 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:01.919 And that's what we know professionally now, dealing with these issues. 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:05.200 That it's a web that really entangles. 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:12.559 Well, and I think it's an important note to say that we know now data shows that scared straight programs are harmful for young people. 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:17.679 They do not deter bad behavior, and it is not something that anybody should be doing. 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:17.919 Right. 00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:27.759 Actually, we were just listening to somebody from New Zealand talk about uh Western ideologies and how we tend to see things as these um almost like widgets. 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.919 They're these independent systems, right? 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.919 These things, almost like they function independently in isolation. 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:52.480 And they were talking about the different perspective outside of a Western ideology, and certainly what they were embodying in New Zealand and an indigenous culture was really what they see is the space in between those individual things are actually all the interwoven relationships, right? 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.480 That that's actually where that's where the stuff is. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:07.600 That's who we are, it's spirit, it's heart, it's relationship, it's trust, it's all the things that then make the structures that we're trying to build work for us or or not work for us, right? 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.519 And maybe work for an elite few. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:20.240 And so I think like when you talk about the story, at least what I saw from the outside, and as BI was coming together and standing up, it was like a bit of a creative genius, right? 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:38.960 Here you had, you know, James Bell with this long history, successful history of suing institutions, fighting for racial justice, standing up in an institute that he named in honor of Haywood Burns, who has his own legacy and you know, spirit that's driving, driving that work and legacy. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:50.000 And then you have James trusting this set of young folks coming out of college, finding each other, wanting to do this, being in the street, organizing in a different way. 00:12:50.159 --> 00:13:03.519 And it's just really, I think it speaks to both his creative genius and his trust and care in setting up the next generation to really help shape and take this work in a very different direction. 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:09.440 I I would venture to say I'm sure that's how James lived his life in a lot of different aspects. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:19.600 But what a beautiful thing to see almost like how ahead of his time he was in setting that up and how fortunate you were to be a part of that, you know, that beginning. 00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:31.600 And now how you're taking it now and thinking about the work that we have ahead of us now and all the folks who want to share in the responsibility of building a better tomorrow. 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:37.759 And so, what do you think? 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:45.200 Like, what are some of the things in your own kind of creativity and how you think about this now, 20 plus years later? 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:59.039 What are some of the things that that you think is really important to flag for folks wanting to be involved and wanting to really get into a space of being able to unleash their creative genius? 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:06.240 You know, I mean, I just think about like claiming it, you know, and and not shying from it. 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:11.360 And so even like when you said you're a closet artist, I was like I totally am a closet artist. 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:18.080 I am I mean the closet is awfully large, it should be expansive because you're quite the artist. 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:25.600 And I just feel like we kind of all did that, you know, we're like closet

doing what we do because we care deeply about it, right? 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:35.279 And I think it this has been an incredible journey for me personally, because I need that freedom, you know, I need that creative freedom. 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:39.600 I need to not I can't just do something because we're good at it. 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:41.360 And and that's enough. 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.120 Like that will not be enough for me. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:54.799 And so it's been a privilege to be in a place where you can both be proud of what you're doing and then at the same time be real about the you know, like is this working? 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.559 Are we getting there, you know? 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:04.399 And so and the nexus of that is true moment of creative opportunity because you really don't know what's next. 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.519 You know, you don't have a guarantee of what's to come. 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.440 And you know, I always I always tell people like history is not walking in the room and gonna tell you that you're making it. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:23.039 You know, nobody's had the chance to know that what they're doing is gonna have this huge impact or not, you just have this opportunity. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:44.320 I I'm curious about for you, Sam, also like I mean, because early in my journey on this, we met because of James's creative juices, you know, he brought people together who were doing way different work, you know, and so here I am organizing community members to address the system, and there you are in your role. 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:48.159 And we connect through our work at the Burns Institute, right? 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.559 But it began to open doors, I think, for me. 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:55.679 And so I'm curious for you about like how was that moment, that nexus for you? 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:57.840 How did that how did that live? 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.679 Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because I think it two things you said that really stood out to me just now. 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:09.519 One was I always think of creativity as the thing that unlocks my freedom. 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:13.759 I come I hold those two together all the time, creativity and freedom. 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:20.399 And you just put those together and it was like, oh yeah, that's like my soul music right there, like creativity and freedom. 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:21.279 Um, for sure. 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.759 I think the other part is the unknown. 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:30.879 When you said, like, in order to step into that creativity, you have to also be okay to face the unknown, which I think is the scariest thing. 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:37.919 And I think in the last couple episodes, we've talked about how sometimes the fear of something is kind of what locks us in. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.679 It kind of protects the status quo, it creates barriers, right? 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.799 For us to be able to really unleash our potential. 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:54.240 And I think that um, you know, I don't want to stand here and say, like, oh, I've got the big S on my chest and I'm super brave, and I step into the unknown. 00:16:54.559 --> 00:17:03.759 I think I've been forced to step into some unknown situations and have really just been able to ground myself in a sense of trust. 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.599 Like, I mean, dropping to my knees, praying, guide each step because I'm not brave enough to take the next step. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:11.519 Like just show me where to take the next step. 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:32.640 And I say that also as a young person who immigrated here and had to kind of build forward on my own, never imagining that I'd be in a place kind of by myself and having to figure it out and being really young, and not only not being, you know, when you grow up and you're in university and you have all your friends and your network, and then you end up in a place and you had you know no one. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.720 There's no quick person to call. 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.599 And not only that, this is when I would carry a map. 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.519 Like rather than having GPS of my phone, right? 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:43.519 Like I had a big map. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.480 Uh, because I didn't even know my way home from work. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.279 You know what I mean? 00:17:47.359 --> 00:17:49.680 Like I was learning everything for the first time. 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:53.119 And uh, you know, and it was, it was, it was scary, it was depressing. 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.119 I was trying to figure it out, but I deep down had this seed of trust. 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:03.359 Like I felt like, no, this is for whatever reason, I'm supposed to be here, I'm supposed to do this, I need to keep going. 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:04.640 This is what I'm meant to do. 00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:05.839 Just figure it out. 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:15.119 Um, but you know, in that, I felt like it also, I'll tell you, my first year, I thought, this is really, really, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:16.480 Am I gonna survive? 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:16.720 Right. 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:19.519 My first year was just really trying to learn how to survive. 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:25.839 Also, you're you go from a place where you're home or you're in school, and suddenly you're an adult, you're on your own, you're paying bills. 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:27.119 It just got real, right? 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:32.000 So I had to figure that part out, like teaching myself to start by adulting, right? 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:51.279 And then by the second year, I thought, okay, second year, I start establishing networks, relationships that build from places of employment, or I played basketball at the local court, or I would, you know, I immigrated to Florida, I would go to

the beach, whatever I was doing, I was starting to now see familiar faces, I was creating a bit of a network. 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:58.400 By the third year, I decided, year three, okay, you know your landscape, you have a few friends, you have a bit of a network. 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:00.640 Now you can decide if you actually like it or not. 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.599 I have enough around me that I can decide if I like it. 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:18.000 I'll tell you, when I recognized I had survived and I was actually able to, I dare I say, felt like I was beginning to thrive, then I felt, bring on the next country, bring on the next place, what's next? 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:24.000 I'm I'm ready for it because it was such an amazing feeling to know that I can do this. 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:28.000 I'm gonna find my people, they're gonna help me, we're gonna keep going. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:36.319 So when I found myself in Baltimore and I was doing a lot of work in communities, similar to you, I was doing alternatives to detention, loved it. 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:49.279 I felt like as an adult, my responsibility in life was to tell young people the things that I wish somebody had told me that would have made the next few steps in life a lot easier. 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:51.200 I that's what I saw as my job. 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:55.920 Let me give you access to information, know that I'm here, let me help you out. 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.640 And then I got a job that um, you know, you feel you get promoted out of your passion. 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:05.359 So you go from being with the people, you're in community, you're loving it, you're thriving. 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:10.240 And then you get this job where you're no longer in the street and you're now working on policy. 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:20.480 And, you know, it's great, it's a promotion, you're doing better, but dang, did they just like rip you away from all the things that make you feel you're living your purpose? 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:21.440 You know what I mean? 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.559 And then I always say I was really fortunate. 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:37.359 I had a grant to receive technical assistance from no other than the Haywood Burns Institute, and got to know James Bell, got to know Shaka, got to know Mike Finley, who was there at the time. 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:44.319 And I'll tell you, it was in that relationship where I think, I think James had said to me once, like, yeah, you know, you're doing great. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.000 Like being in community is great. 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.400 You're touching about 300 kids a year. 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:49.279 That's wonderful. 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.920 Doing it this way, though, you're gonna touch thousands, hundreds of thousands. 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:57.200 Like you're gonna change the way people think about this. 00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:04.400 We're gonna change these systems, we're gonna change how folks are living right now, we're gonna create a different type of access. 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:06.640 And it was, it was what I needed to hear. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:11.759 It was the thing that said, Oh my gosh, yeah, I'm I'm all the way in, you know, like let's just keep going. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:16.480 And I did feel like it was another, okay, and what does that look like? 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:17.119 I don't know. 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:17.920 You don't know? 00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:23.359 Okay, but he invited me in with you all to start creating together and building together. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.160 And one of the things I love, and Shaka, this is one thing I I give you so much credit for. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.960 When I formally joined the team, and I would say, like, could we try doing it this way? 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:34.640 And you'd say, Yeah, of course, what else? 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:35.599 Like, try this other thing. 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.000 Yeah, what? 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.920 And I was so used to folks saying, like, well, no, we don't really do it that way. 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:43.920 You know, let's do it this way because we're getting good results here, so let's do this. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.160 And I felt like you and James were always like, Oh, no, no, that's okay. 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:50.400 Yeah, this works, but maybe your way will work better. 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:52.079 Let's try that, let's try that. 00:21:52.240 --> 00:22:02.799 And I feel like that's at the root of some of this is something so simple is just being open to letting new folks, new Energy, just try something a little bit different. 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:03.759 And you know what? 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:04.720 So, what if it fails? 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:14.559 Fail forward, tweak it, do it again, do it again and again and again until you're blowing way past the thing that you thought was good, and now you're changing the course of history. 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:20.559 And as I listen to you, it just really feels like creativity requires some confidence. 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.319 Or blind trust. 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.960 Well, I mean, even blind trust, right? 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.559 On some level, you have to be confident that, like, I'm gonna do that. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.039 I'm gonna actually do the trust file with you. 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.640 You better catch me. 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:34.559 But you have to kind of go with it. 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:51.279 And so I would just listen to over your the experiences you've had, you know, how like you've said, as you have more, I don't know if confidence is the right word, but that's kind of what I heard was like, yeah, as our confidence grows, we can tap into that creativity. 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:54.880 It's it's it's interesting the relationship to them. 00:22:55.039 --> 00:23:03.759 And I would say that resonated for me

meeting James, and he was comfortable doing this, and he brought all that information. 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:17.039 And then meeting people, meeting you and other folks who were in the community on the ground, who are also like, Yeah, there's gotta be something more we can do about this, and we're real about it, right? 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:27.119 And so it was it's so it's like one of those unique chances in life where we're we're all real people, but we're really being posed with this question that's much larger than us. 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:32.400 And we get this opportunity to try to take it on. 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:45.359 And there's plenty of people who think we can't do it, who will tell you why you can't do it, who are confident that you can't do it, who will uh want you to prove over and over that you can do it, and how did you do it, and show me the impact. 00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:52.720 So, you know, it's like one of those existential challenges that was exciting to embrace. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:24:06.079 So, Shaka, as we're thinking back and we're thinking about the trajectory of these tracks and our even our own stories, we've just glossed over the last couple of decades, right? 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:11.440 And I think the fundamental question that we keep coming back to is is it working? 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.200 Is it working enough? 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.880 Where do we go from here? 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:31.839 Yeah, and picking up on like just meeting James, starting the Burns Institute, and this notion that like suing institutions on behalf of the young people who are being abused in those institutions as an effort to try to get those institutions to change was not working. 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:33.200 Now he was effective. 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.119 He could win the case, win case after case after case. 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:48.240 But James himself said, yeah, and they would change the awning, put a new name on the place, act like they changed some policies in the handbook, and then go on doing business as usual. 00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:54.000 And he saw that over and over and was like, no, I want to sit with and work with the decision makers. 00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:04.480 That was a radical shift for people to think that you could actually bring all these folks together, which they represent paramilitary organizations that don't work together. 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:10.319 So they're not used to hearing from the different entities that make up the so-called system. 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.200 And it really doesn't function like a system at all. 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:28.559 So that was critical because in their various decision making was so much opportunity to actually change the the day-to-day practices and to change the impacts that you know people are having by touching the justice sector at all. 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:31.359 And so to do that was a big shift. 00:25:31.759 --> 00:26:01.440 And then to

say, well, we're gonna do that, we're gonna bring in community members and people who've been directly through your system from the neighborhoods that are most overrepresented, which was frightening for the law enforcement stakeholders to think they're gonna sit at the table with people who are from the the neighborhoods they would say are dangerous and that they go into hyper-aggressive most of the time and and are really just, you know, doing all kinds of harm in terms of their relationship with the people who live there. 00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:11.039 And so it's frightening to also sudden have those people who live there to come to your meeting and to be able to speak to this behavior and the treatment that they experience. 00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.519 So that was a major move and very frightening for folks. 00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:38.720 And then doing all that, we were able to demonstrate that you could actually collect data, analyze each decision point by race, ethnicity, gender, geography, and offense, and literally address the actual target populations and move safely those populations out of these systems into community settings with the supports that folks needed. 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:43.519 And at the same time, we found success all over the country doing this practice. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:45.759 We worked in over 300 jurisdictions. 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:53.920 Over and over and over, the situation would not only persist, but the disparities would often get worse in spite of our success. 00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:06.640 Now, some folk could have said, well, that's because the issue's larger than anyone's approach, so we're gonna keep at it and we'll be, you know, happy to just keep getting the success we're able to find. 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:11.759 We did not believe that that was at all what we were aiming for. 00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:30.799 Uh and we actually wanted to achieve a society where we could all have equal access to opportunity, we could all really thrive, we could, you know, have racial equity and the things that so much uh social justice organizations lift up and promote and are talking about. 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:33.039 And that those are worthy goals. 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:34.480 A new world is possible. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.160 These things are not just sayings, we can do better. 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:39.839 And we looked at the history. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:50.799 So our work was always informed by history, which it was kind of easy to see that, well, we're still on the same tracks that we originally were on when this thing started. 00:27:51.039 --> 00:28:03.759 Is it reasonable to think that you're going to reform these institutions that were built to execute racial hierarchy in this country to become vehicles of racial equity? 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:05.680 Like, that's not really realistic. 00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:10.720 You know, you don't get zero emissions from reforming the gas engine. 00:28:11.119

--> 00:28:15.599 You got to get rid of the gasoline engine, the gas tank, the gas station. 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:17.920 You have to have a whole new approach to the vehicle. 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:19.920 But as we see, that can be done. 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.440 And so it's a real opportunity. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:39.200 It feels like one of the greatest opportunities for creativity on the horizon in terms of rethinking how we are in relationship to each other in this new modern society with AI and all of the challenges that come with these advancements. 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:40.240 Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:45.359 We probably have the most tools at our disposal to be as creative as possible. 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:54.880 And whether it is about being brave, and I I think I've said this to you once before because I don't see myself as somebody to, I mean, deep down, yeah, like sure, I'm a Spartan warrior. 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.519 That's how I see myself for real, but you know. 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:00.160 All right, all right. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:02.319 That is who I am, yeah, for sure. 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:08.559 But but in those moments, I feel less in the space of stepping into a brave space. 00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:14.000 Like that's just not, I don't always expect folks to feel like, yep, I'm gonna jump right in. 00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:32.640 I do think for me, and maybe this is a bit of a cheat sheet that I can offer to folks, like I'm somebody who definitely, like, every time I had to take that step, uh, honestly, I felt like whether it was the ancestors looking out, whether it was my faith, whether it was like whatever it was, the universe was conspiring to have my back. 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.000 Like I felt covered. 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:41.039 I felt so long as I was holding my integrity, I was taking that step because that's what I was destined to do, because that was my purpose. 00:29:41.200 --> 00:30:03.039 And even if there was no path forged in front of me, I was supposed to do this, was because somebody had something had me covered to do that, which is in in that, in that regard, I do feel like I felt a lot less brave, but I felt like I I trusted, like there was there was a love that was guiding me through that I felt got me to the next space. 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:15.440 So I share that just for whatever it's worth and however it helps anybody to move through, because I think being fearless in moments of absolute, what feel like absolute chaos can feel daunting, right? 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:20.880 Sometimes trusting your instinct and leaning in on your faith can feel a lot more comforting. 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:28.160 Yeah, you know, I think it's deep how I'm accepting all these things that are about to go through me. 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:37.839 The energy, the unknowing, you know, what's gonna happen tomorrow, which unfortunately is more real than not, you know, some real stuff that we're all worrying about right now. 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.119 And just believe that, you know, and have faith and confidence. 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:43.440 That's why I kind of brought it, brought it back to confidence. 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:50.400 Maybe we might have to do a show on confidence at some point, because you know, people talk about faking it so they make it. 00:30:50.559 --> 00:31:00.799 I think these are all like psychological ways of kind of realizing I don't feel as confident, and then later looking back with great confidence and kind of analyzing and reflecting. 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:08.160 So But wait, but wait, but let me ask this because I actually almost said this before when we were talking about the work and with James. 00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:24.640 What do you do when when you have to do better, when humanity is relying on you to create completely different systems and structures, ways of being, ways of being in relationship with yourself, with others, with your environment, with everything around you. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:44.799 And it's it's so connected to what where we are right now, and getting folks to realize like it, it's really time to let go of it, almost like defy the gravitational pull that is keeping you anchored to what you know, what is, and what you think is the only way, and that is kind of protecting the status quo and keeping things as they are. 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.519 Let go. 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:57.759 Just be willing to let go of all of that, to close your eyes, release yourself from that foundation, and just fly into space where you could really imagine what if it was the utopia that you wanted? 00:31:57.839 --> 00:31:58.640 What does it look like? 00:31:58.799 --> 00:31:59.920 What does it smell like? 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:01.200 What does it sound like? 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:02.079 What are you seeing? 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:02.799 What are you tasting? 00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.839 What are you touching? 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.119 Like, let's build that, you know, like just limitless. 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.519 And then we figure out step by step, right? 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:10.720 How we get there. 00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:20.960 But let's like just take away any barrier that prevents you from even seeing and touching and feeling what that could be, and then we build forward. 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.640 And that's Future on Deck. 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:38.640 Hey, this is Chris James from Oakland, California, by way of Vicksburg Pacific, and my vision for the future is a society of radical acceptance. 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.599 Hi, I'm Keishaana, and I am from Maryland, DLZ. 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:52.960 My vision for the future is a world where all children have access to development, love, and community. 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:06.079 We recognize what a privilege it is to share this time and space with you all as we consider our limitless potential to build a better future for this world. 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:10.799 We would like to thank our listeners for your support, and thank you to our team and producers. 00:33:11.599 --> 00:33:20.880 There is a bright future on deck, and we hope this podcast is a reminder that you all have a meaningful part and a great responsibility in building it. 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:22.960 It's the opportunity of a lifetime. 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.799 You can download Future on Deck wherever you get your podcast. 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.160 Be sure to like and subscribe and leave a comment to us about your own vision for the future. 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:33.759 Help us get the word out. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:35.920 So if you're new here, come on in. 00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.319 This is a space where we all belong.