התמלול המלא של Testing the Waters: Fred Karger’s First Steps Toward the White House

lot of coverage, and then a lot of goodwill within the LGBT community because, you know, particularly the activists want to fight back. 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:29.120 But what we'd been doing in the 27 gay marriage votes we'd lost around the country was to be the nice ones, talk about loving couples and everything, but never really go after the other side. 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:37.120 Well, I had done that, and I got a lot of cheers from uh the LGBT community, and and it was uh kind of a big signal. 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:44.879 So I'd established my credibility a little bit, I thought, and then I also had to figure out could I make this sacrifice? 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:50.960 I mean it's a two and a half year commitment if I may went through the whole project, pro the whole campaign. 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:53.840 And so it was um fundraising. 00:02:53.919 --> 00:03:04.800 I was subpoenaed by the Mormon Church's front group, the National Organization for Marriage, twice in federal lawsuits, big, big deal, and never been in anything like that, so I had to get lawyers and do all that. 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:07.280 They had the best lawyers in the country, so I raised money. 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:11.599 I had a legal defense fund, and I was able to raise enough money to cover most of my legal bills. 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:13.120 So that was a test, too. 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:14.319 What could I raise money? 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:20.560 And just, you know, had there been a gay candidate, how was the president, Obama, the incumbent on LGBT rights? 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.520 He was still opposed to gay marriage at that point in 2010. 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:24.879 It wasn't until 2012. 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:35.759 So there are various things that I came up with and putting a team together and things like that that I thought I would at least, as we say, legally test the waters about running for president, and that's just what I did. 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:37.919 Hey, this is Fred Carger. 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.199 I am in New Hampshire. 00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:40.479 It's my first official day. 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:48.879 It's Monday, March 1st, and I'm off uh to kind of test the waters or test the snow, I guess, in in New Hampshire, and I'll keep you posted along the way. 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:53.039 You'd been working, of course, in politics for a you know quite a while at that point. 00:03:53.199 --> 00:04:03.759 Um did you feel that there were still things you needed to learn about like ballot access or other sort of comp like uh nuts and bolts components of running a campaign? 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:05.599 Absolutely, yeah. 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:06.560 There's so much to it. 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:10.639 I'd worked on nine presidential campaigns, but never managed one. 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:15.280 Uh so I worked on different parts of campaigns, west western states, things like that. 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:22.000 But no, uh as far as the nuts and bolts of getting on ballots and getting endorsements, things like that, I'd never really uh looked at. 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:30.000 So I had to do a crash course in presidential campaign running 101 and um put a good team together. 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:45.120 Um and that's how we really came to be because uh Brian Wilson, who had worked on my Prop 8 campaign full-time as we went after the big donors, he tracked a lot of the donations and published a list that we called the uh the dishonor role. 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:48.639 And so he came on board first to help me organize these early trips. 00:04:48.800 --> 00:05:07.360 And then this young man that came to me because uh I had gone very aggressively against this Mormon front group in Maine the year after Prop 8, and he was from Maine, so he had known about my efforts there and wanted to help however he could, and was very helpful to me, very smart guy, Georgetown graduate, generalist could do everything. 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:08.319 He came on board. 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:10.720 So now I've got a a good support system. 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:19.040 Uh Kevin ended up working the full-time two and a half years, traveled with me, the poor guy, for the entire campaign, a lot of Christmases and birthdays. 00:05:19.439 --> 00:05:21.680 And then Brian Wilson was kind of the anchor. 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:25.120 He stayed in California and just did everything else. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:30.800 Bookings and um, you know, when we had to get a campaign bus, he arranged for the wrapping for it. 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:31.519 He just did everything. 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:35.279 He's a great generalist and just a real bright guy and great mind. 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:42.639 So once I had a little team together, that made it a lot easier, a lot more I was a lot more able to deal with this because it wasn't just me now. 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:43.759 I had some support. 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.439 It sounds like your team came to you based on your your message. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:52.480 They weren't mercenary, you know, mercenary for higher political operatives. 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:56.560 It sounds like they all were drawn to you and your activities and your message. 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:58.639 They certainly weren't in it for the money. 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:09.279 I paid never missed a payroll, like a lot of candidates do, but uh but we did um I had a very dedicated team, and then that grew from there. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:11.279 You mentioned your legal defense fund. 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:18.240 Tell me again how that was instructive in terms of like your understanding of how fundraising worked, because that's you know, very different purposes. 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:19.120 Yes. 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:35.120 And so when I started my efforts to go after the big donors of Proposition Eight, one of the things I announced to the campaign that was doing that, I will not raise a

dime, I will contribute money to the campaign, which I did, but I won't compete with you, which was of course a fear they had. 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:59.040 But then when that ended, right after that, and I went to Maine, I was on Labor Day, that following Labor Day, the the knock on the door, I was in Laguna Beach with friends over and you know, Fred Carger, and I said yes, and I just had this sinking feeling, and it was a subpoena, and his name's James Bop Bop, who was the uh Republican National Committeeman actually from Indiana, but he was the author of United uh Citizens United. 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:00.639 He was the original attorney who brought that. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:09.600 Ted Olson took it over, but you know, just this revered right-wing political guy, I mean, uh lawyer, political lawyer, and so constitutional lawyer, actually. 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:11.439 So that was pretty intimidating. 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:14.720 And so I started a campaign called Five for Fred. 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:16.959 Give five dollars to my legal defense fund. 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:24.480 You know, it's one of these things I never ever thought I would have to to to launch was a legal defense fund, but I did. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:30.480 And you know, some people took me literally and sent me five dollars, but then others were very, very generous. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:45.920 And that was uh pretty emotional for me because I uh you know I I'd funded everything myself, I was independent, I wanted to do that, but then to see that that money was coming in because they believed in what I was doing and they felt sorry for me, you know, going up against these huge, huge guns. 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:50.000 I was not Lambda legal, I was not the HRC, it was just me. 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.040 So um I was very successful in that. 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:54.720 And that happened again. 00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:05.439 They subpoenaed me again, this National Organization for Marriage, and when they were suing the IRS and I put another legal defense fund, some stranger from Manhattan Beach, California sent me$5,000. 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:06.240 Wow. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.680 And talk about uh an awakening when I opened that check, I couldn't believe it. 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:20.000 Um so you know, they get support like that, knowing that there are people around the country that are watching what I'm doing and and cheering for me made a huge difference. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.160 What was the uh purpose of the subpoena? 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:22.959 I'm curious. 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:35.519 It's a bit of a tangent, but it's a little complicated, but yeah, the somebody had requested the National Organization for Marriage's 990 tax returns, and the IRS screwed up and sent the unredacted version. 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:43.759 And that individual in Boston gave it to the HRC who released it, taking credit for it, which of course it was just given to them.

00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:51.120 But anyway, so then they went nuts, the National Organization for Marriage, and their donors, because their donors were listed there, which they're not supposed to be. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:55.840 So they um then sued HRC, who pulled everything down, but by then it was too late. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:07.919 So I took those names who were on that list who had not filed major donor reports, and they had not filed the National Organization for Marriage had not filed with the state of California these monies they had received. 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:13.440 So I filed a complaint with our ethics commission, which bam, they they announced they were going to investigate it right away. 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:22.240 So because I took that information, which was public information, it was published Huffing to Post all over, and then filed a legal action against them with our state ethics office. 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:23.200 They didn't like that. 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.679 And they didn't like me anyway, so then they s they subpoenaed me in this federal lawsuit. 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:30.240 I was actually a witness for the IRS. 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:33.360 I had to hire more attorneys, I had to go face them. 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:39.840 Um and the the interesting one, their attorney and the chairman of the National Organization for Marriage then was John Eastman. 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:51.440 And that name may sound familiar because he was the one who was the you know trying to overturn the Trump election and and ended up, you know, getting prosecuted on that and still fighting the charges. 00:09:51.679 --> 00:10:07.519 And he had been my nemesis, and so here he is sitting across from me in this deposition of the United States Attorney's Office with my attorney and and the uh their attorneys, and it was just, as the headline said in the Frontiers magazine, he was uh, what was it, befuddled. 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.639 He was just the he was so disorganized. 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:24.960 This is his constitutional scholar, apparently, but he he was awful and it kept objecting to stuff he couldn't object to, and he'd reach down, he'd pick up, go through his briefcase, and he'd come back up, and his face was so red, I thought it was gonna explode. 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:27.039 So anyway, it was not a great show. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:34.879 But again, I had to get attorneys and take that very seriously because subpoenas, which I said I didn't even know how to spell it, I didn't know there was a P in it. 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:36.639 I I learned. 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:42.399 So that that taught you a lot about how how you could reach out and and and draw in uh fundraising dollars. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.519 But yeah, to see if I could, and that was one of my checklists. 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:47.120 Um am I able to raise money? 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.039 Because I hadn't before. 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.360 I believe you had a family meeting in Hawaii. 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:53.279 Was that something that was on your checklist as well? 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:54.960 And and tell me about that. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:11:00.639 So yeah, there are various things you do writing your memoir like I did that you have to do when you run for president. 00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:12.720 One is the traditional family meeting to get the sign-off, and as uh coincidence, we were having a my mother died a few years earlier, so we're having the big family Christmas, my brother's house in Hawaii. 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:17.519 And so there were 13 cargers there, and I thought, well, this is a good time to broach the subject. 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:20.240 It was in December of 2011. 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.000 I'm sorry, 2009. 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:28.240 So it was right before you know I was gonna go to my testing the waters trip to New Hampshire and DC and New York. 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:31.440 And so I I announced it to him first. 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:38.879 I got uh consulted a few friends how to go about this, so I thought, you know, tell him first before everybody else, which I did. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:50.080 And he's having a cigar sitting out in his lanai, and you know, he's his son comes in and goes, you know, you want to hear the craziest thing that you've ever heard in your life, you could never guess it in in a million years. 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.399 He goes, What, Fred's running for president? 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.799 So my good friend Shane Miller had told him, but he had kept the secret. 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:00.879 So anyway, then the cat was out of the bag and everybody signed off. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:09.759 He wasn't as enthusiastic as my brother about it, but everybody else, his kids and my cousins and my, I called him my second brother, was a cousin, Butch Carger. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:14.240 Everybody was very enthusiastic and started opening their checkbooks and stuff. 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:18.320 But it was the sign-off that I needed, and it's just one of the traditional things. 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:26.960 Mitt Romney, who of course became the nominee, he did the exact same thing a year later, took his family, the bigger family to Hawaii to discuss it with them. 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:29.759 But of course, he had made up his mind too, like I had. 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:31.759 More for show. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.559 I like the um the mid rom Mitt Romney following in your in your footsteps. 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:38.639 Yeah, copied me the whole campaign. 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:44.480 You mentioned that the personal cost, like the two and a half years. 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:52.399 Were there other sort of factors in in thinking about the personal cost to devoting this much time and energy to a presidential run? 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.759 Um yes, and that was a major decision of mine because I had retired. 00:12:57.919 -->

00:13:07.600 I'd been retired about six years at that point, and I was living in Laguna Beach and I was wearing, you know, shorts and t-shirts every day and having a pretty good life. 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.720 And do I want to change that for the blue suit? 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:24.720 And um I gave it a lot of thought because it was, you know, and I hadn't geared up to ever run for office, so I didn't live my life like someone who was planning to run for political office might. 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.159 And so that's one of the things I I learned in the memoir. 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:44.480 And, you know, I'd go to parties, I experimented with drugs, and I did that, and then I'd look back Obama in his book and his memoir, you know, he talked about, and there was a very specific thing I remembered from his campaign, he talked about using marijuana and cocaine and admitted it in his memoir. 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:54.080 Well, then when Hillary Clinton's one of her New Hampshire state chairs attacked him for his cocaine use, it was a non-issue because all the press, oh, he wrote about that. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:14:02.080 So I said, Wow, that's all you gotta do is write about a few things in your past, and that's not an issue, which is always something we advise candidates. 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.519 We'd ask them every which way, anything in your past we should know about. 00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.759 Tell us anything, any illegal, any anything, and they would all, no, no, no, no, no. 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.519 And then, of course, you know, month before the primary, something would come out. 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:19.519 So my life is, yeah, no different this year, but my life is literally an open book. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:32.159 And I, you know, it's a very personal memoir as well, written by a brilliant writer, Steve Pfeiffer, I grew up with, who wrote Morris Dees's two memoirs as head of the Southern Poverty Law Center, James Baker III memoir. 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:40.879 I've been the Secretary of State, Chief of Staff, and so he had great experience with that, and just a brilliant writer, law school, graduate from the University of Chicago, Yale. 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.799 So anyway, we teamed up and and put that memoir together, and I was in the clear. 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:54.720 You mentioned um previously a few people uh and their work that has really uh inspired you. 00:14:55.120 --> 00:15:03.200 Um you mentioned Shirley Chisholm's campaign as an inspiration and somebody whose name you invoke and try to keep uh in the conversation. 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:12.159 Um and I just wonder if there were any certain aspects to her run for president, her historic run for president that were really instructive to you. 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:17.279 Well, yeah, I did as much research and talked to as many people who were around for that as I could. 00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:22.799 She ran 1972, and not just as the first black candidate, but as a woman. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:28.799 So back in those days particularly, I mean the Civil Rights Act had just passed, and so it was very bold. 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:34.639 But she was an elected Congresswoman from New York, and I just patterned my campaign after hers. 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:36.080 And she was a fighter. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:41.200 She fought to get into the debates, she succeeded eventually, but she was dismissed. 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:50.159 The the black caucus in Congress didn't even support her, she didn't get, which kind of equated to my uh lack of support from the LGBT leadership. 00:15:50.320 --> 00:16:00.159 And she was just always very together, very articulate, dressed well, just a great representative as the first African American candidate for president. 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:14.559 And there's some wonderful books about her, and I could, I mean, at every opportunity I would talk about her campaign and her because you know, you get erased in this business if you're not careful why I'm sitting here today with this podcast. 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.759 Because uh sixteen years ago is a long time. 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:21.039 And you know, she was you know, fifty four years ago. 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.080 So it's it's important that this dialogue continue. 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:29.039 So I don't know if somebody will defend me or talk about me in twenty years. 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:39.519 Um but it's it's important, and and she was such a pioneer and so courageous in 1972 that yeah, I I tried to do everything I could to emulate her campaign. 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.720 You all have also referenced uh David Plough's book, The Audacity to Win. 00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:48.320 Were there were there lessons in that um book? 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:49.840 Tell me about your experience with that. 00:16:50.240 --> 00:17:01.440 So yeah, Pluff and David Axelrod ran the the Davids ran Obama's Upstart campaign, uh Audacity to Win, and that was my yeah, my instruction book. 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:12.960 I mean, Pluff, you know, they're both brilliant guys, but Pluff wrote the book, and it was basically, you know, I mean Obama, other than his big speech to the Democratic Convention, you know, he's just he wasn't that well known. 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:20.079 I mean, obviously terrible, incredibly charismatic candidate and obviously very successful in the long run. 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:27.599 But when he started, you know, very few people knew of him, and his battleground state was Iowa, which is kind of strange, I thought. 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:35.519 But you know, when you're looking at one of the two and not both, which is traditional for first-time candidates, you know, he went to Iowa. 00:17:35.839 --> 00:17:37.680 And meaning New Hampshire or Iowa? 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:38.079 Right. 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.279 What is the or you pick you usually do both? 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:50.480 What's

the Um usually you go to one, your strongest state, unless you know you're Hillary Clinton, um, you know, that that kind of for your debut, essentially? 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:52.400 Well for your first battle. 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:52.880 Okay. 00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:01.440 Because the Iowa caucuses, which are very different than New Hampshire primary, the states are very different geographically, uh, philosophically, everything. 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.119 So it was um it was a great lesson. 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:10.000 And the the real takeaway I got from Pluff's book was just you know, take chances. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:11.359 Like, why are you going to Iowa? 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.200 You can't do it, you can't raise all that stuff. 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:18.240 He said, screw it, we're gonna go, we're gonna take the chances, we're gonna do everything we can to win this thing. 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.279 And that was the takeaway that I got, along with a lot of other how-to's. 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:34.640 But you can be a first-time candidate like Obama, you know, way more going for him than I had, but at least, you know, he went, took a chance, and and of course, won in Iowa. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:36.079 Big upset. 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:45.359 Um Hillary Clinton finished third after spending$28 million in seven in 19 uh or 20 20 2008 money. 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.319 Be like a hundred million now, and she finished third. 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.759 So, you know, it was a lesson. 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:54.160 One of the reasons I did not avail myself to the Iowa caucuses. 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.119 Okay. 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:05.680 So with your checklist in hand, marked off, you s you had uh you had a essentially a plan on paper, or at least uh a go-ahead for yourself to move forward. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:13.680 What was your first concrete uh action to test your candidacy or your viability as a candidate in the in the real world? 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:19.039 Well, I learned from my boss Bill Roberts, you know, for you have to have a campaign plan and budget. 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:27.759 And the way you get that is by doing your due diligence, talking to as many people as you can talk to, and learning, because you're going to a new state. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:29.680 I didn't know anybody in New Hampshire. 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:43.279 And so that was the important thing, and I I that was my original you know target, but on the way to New Hampshire I stopped in Washington, D.C., which you gotta do that and check that box and meet with a lot of the leadership there, LGBT. 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.519 Um I was also, it turned out, the first Jewish Republican to ever run for president. 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:53.599 I'd been a member of an organization called the Republican Jewish Coalition, which was tiny, tiny, tiny then. 00:19:53.839 --> 00:20:00.880 Um and um I I long time, I mean lifelong, not lifelong, but as

long as they'd been around, I'd been a member. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.039 So I met with Matt Brooks, who was the head of that. 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:16.880 I met with the HRC and the Victory Fund, and I did as many meetings, another organization I was very involved with called Republican Majority for Choice, mostly all women, um, some very prominent women, um, and I'd been a supporter of theirs. 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:27.039 They were very excited about my candidacy because, of course, of the 11 major candidates, there's only one who supported uh you know women's reproductive rights and uh was pro-choice. 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:31.359 So I got support from them and ended up um doing uh pretty well with them. 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:40.960 But uh, you know, various reactions, and then New York, you have to kind of touch base in New York City with a lot of the leadership is here in the LGBT community pretty much. 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:47.359 That trip didn't go as well uh because it was February and the big storm came in. 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:48.799 February 2010. 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:49.759 2010. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.359 You can look on your farmer's almanac. 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.400 It was a bad winter here, so a lot of the stuff was canceled. 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:57.440 I was discouraged. 00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:15.839 But then to the rescue came another family member, Dave Carger, a cousin of mine, who's gay and good friend, and his uh parents who I was at their wedding, my cousin Tom and Mary Jane, and you know, we went out for brunch because he was going to drive me to New Hampshire, which he did from New York. 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:27.440 We went to his parents' uh house for brunch, and then we went the next day to uh that same day to New Hampshire, where his grandmother lived, and also uh some of his cousins and stuff. 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:39.119 So he was instrumental in that, and then his mom, and I said I'd been discouraged after my New York cancellations and Washington, you know, wasn't jumping up and down about it. 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:46.720 Um, but she after brunch, I was helping clear the plates in the kitchen, she said, you know, you just gotta do this. 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.240 And she'd become an activist when her son Dave came out. 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:54.720 He's on the board of Glisten and did many, many things, and she just said, you know, you've gotta run. 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:55.519 You've gotta run. 00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.039 We had brunch in our dining room. 00:21:59.200 --> 00:21:59.759 Fred helped me. 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:26.880 So she was just she gave me that pep talk I needed, but I still wanted to give New Hampshire a week and see how things went there. 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:36.240 So touching down with with Dave and talking with uh Mary, Mary Jane, was it like your your first foray into New Hampshire? 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.440 Were your first official step into New Hampshire? 00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:39.920 Yeah. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:23:02.559 Well, there it was kind of a that brunch was a little bit of a launch for that campaign, and then ended up having another brunch with his uh his grandmother and then um her family there that owned a restaurant and I became close to and friends, and so I had a little kind of a little base of support there, although they were they didn't really know me. 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.519 They were like, well, who is this crazy guy? 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.359 You know, and I always try and look the part for president. 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:10.559 Right, right for president. 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:11.680 You know, that was the thing. 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:18.240 So, you know, as I said before, I've the first thing I had to do was to, you know, show people I was a serious candidate. 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:20.400 Because, you know, who the hell is this guy that's never heard of me? 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:21.039 What's he done? 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.359 Nothing, and so never run for office. 00:23:23.519 --> 00:23:27.519 So, you know, I always made a point, like Shirley Chisholm always really looked good. 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.200 You gotta look like a serious candidate. 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:41.599 So I traded the shorts and t-shirts for these blue suits and ties, and and you know, tried to convince people and and made a lot of headway, and particularly with a lot of the journalists who were particularly skeptical. 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:44.240 I want to go back a step just for a moment. 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:51.119 You mentioned uh uh an early meeting with the Victory Fund, and I want to talk about how that went, where that was and when and how that went. 00:23:51.599 --> 00:24:05.039 So the LGBT Victory Fund, which has been around for probably 30 years, its mission is to identify and support LGBTQ candidates for office, any office, you know, local office, state office. 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:17.519 At that point, when I met uh Chuck Wolf, who was the head of it at a dinner in Los Angeles, he had heard rumblings because I had already come out as a candidate to the head of the HRC and this Bruce Bastion. 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:23.200 They were at a party I had hosted in that Sundance for that documentary that I was in. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.599 Um and so the word was out in DC. 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:29.039 Well, Chuck Wolf, when I said, you know, I'd love to talk to you, I'm heading to D.C. 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.799 next week, thinking right, he said, I know we're not gonna support you. 00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:37.279 I go, you know, hold on, hold on, you know, never had a gay presidential candidate. 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:38.640 Just, you know, hear me out. 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:45.920 And so through him, I ended up with a meeting with a guy named James Dozier at the Victory Fund offices in D.C. 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:47.039 on that trip there. 00:24:47.119

--> 00:24:48.480 And uh, you know, it was pretty funny. 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:54.240 He's was kind of the in-house Republican, and so they didn't have very many Republican candidates for anything. 00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.839 But he had a checklist that he's asking me, you know, all these questions. 00:24:57.920 --> 00:24:59.839 So have you talked to your local leaders? 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.119 Oh, wait, that wouldn't apply. 00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:06.480 Have you um talked to the uh the mayor of your have you talked to the local newspaper? 00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:13.519 It was all geared for what they'd been doing, which was getting local LGBT people elected to office. 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.920 Um so it didn't quite apply because I'm running for president, that was kind of funny. 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:27.279 But yeah, they actually at that point, and it's all because of this Chuck Wolf, and I've written about it extensively, um, he was trying to sabotage my campaign. 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:48.799 So not even just letting me run and not taking a position, but making me jump through all these hoops, which took a lot away from my campaign, writing full campaign plans, a lot of meetings, going to their conferences, and then wouldn't even put it up for a vote, which is almost when a fist fight broke out between him and I, first time in my life. 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.440 Um, it was he was just impossible. 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:55.680 Now they've changed quite a bit uh through the last head of it. 00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:07.759 Anise Parker actually put a sentence in the website in the 2012 year when Tammy Baldwin was elected senator from Wisconsin, and then also that their first openly gay candidate ran. 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:16.000 It was that's I got a sentence, and then through Evan Lowe, who is the new head of it, who's a former assemblyman from my home state of California, we've become close. 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:21.680 I actually was just at their conference that they hosted at World Pride, and so they've come around quite a bit. 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:33.759 But uh I just, yeah, I'm I'm bitter because that's not the way you treat somebody, and particularly with my track record as an activist, to just, you know, not just say, you know, we're gonna sit this out. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:44.720 But I I specifically, everybody I talked to when I first started on that trip, and then subsequently was I said, you know, two things I'm asking, just you know, watch what I do and keep an open mind. 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.279 I wasn't looking for endorsements, I wasn't looking for money, I just you know, just see what happens. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:52.640 And I didn't know what was gonna happen, but at least keep an open mind. 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.440 And uh he he didn't do that, but most others did. 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:59.759 Did he ever tell you uh why he was uh opposing you? 00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:06.000 So so I'm sure the Republican thing didn't help, um, but there might be a few other things. 00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:13.440 No, we never never really got into that, but you know, I have my I'm speculating, but yeah, it's just not the way you treat people. 00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:16.559 When did this almost fist fight happen? 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:21.279 It was in DC after I had gone through all the requirements. 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:28.640 I submitted a 26-page campaign plan and budget specifically designed for victory and how we could work together and all that. 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.440 And that's when he said, you know, I said, What's the status? 00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:35.279 I said, You've taken a vote, there's a process through committee, and then the full board. 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:37.519 And he said, We're not gonna we're not gonna do that. 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:39.039 You don't want to, you don't want to know. 00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:40.720 And I said, I want to know. 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.400 And it got very tense. 00:27:42.480 --> 00:27:46.000 And I didn't realize till I just saw him a few months ago, he was a lot bigger than I am. 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:51.599 But I tell you, it was gonna, it was the only time in my life I thought I was gonna get into a fight. 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:52.480 Wow. 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:57.119 But now I've let bygones be bygones, sort of. 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:05.039 You chose New Hampshire rather than Iowa as your as your sort of your first uh as your testing round. 00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:16.960 Um and you've gone a little bit into that, but who who when you arrived, who are the people that you met with in New Hampshire that you wanted to meet with who were or who were willing to engage with you? 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:18.640 Well, it's pretty interesting. 00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:26.319 I knew that both those states would be more interested than the other 48 states, because they have the first two caucus primary in the nation. 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:31.359 And so I just decided on New Hampshire first because I thought a primary would make more sense. 00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:56.640 The research I did showed that they think 42% of the voters in New Hampshire were were independent, registered as and not with either party, which was a big indicator to me, which is how I came up with my description as an independent Republican, which fit me because I was very different on my positions than certainly all 10 of my opponents, but the party platform and everything else, much more progressive than that. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.000 So I thought this might be a good state for me, and I want to start there first. 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:22.000 So my first meeting was actually in Sacramento with a friend of a friend of a very well-regarded campaign operative, Steve Maviglio, didn't know me from Adam, met with me and just gave me tons of advice on New Hampshire because he had been a state representative in New Hampshire, one

of 400 in the lower house, but he knew the state very well before he'd moved to California. 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:31.440 So he was just a wealth of information and told me, you know, here's who you meet with, as I did with everybody, I took copious notes, but he said, you can use my name. 00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:32.960 I was like, wow. 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:39.119 You know, Democrat revered in the state, revered in California, and that opened a lot of doors for me. 00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:42.000 And I'm forever indebted. 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:55.519 But yeah, he told me specifically, and there was a guy who's a state representative, current at that time, who had gotten married, the first gay marriage of a state representative, uh Robert Thompson, married his husband, Mike. 00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:02.079 And the first one of the first meetings I had, we had lunch at the big political hangout, Puritan back room in Manchester. 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:16.160 And he took me from there over to the one and only television station in Manchester, New Hampshire called WMUR, which is what every presidential candidate uh aspires to because it's the one station that everybody watches. 00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:19.759 Now, again, this is you know 14 years ago, so things were different. 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:29.119 Um actually 16 years ago, and so that was um a big breakthrough, and they interviewed me and put it on the news that night because I was newsworthy having come out. 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.400 And this was two years before the primary, it's 2010. 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:34.400 So we became very close. 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:49.440 He was a huge asset to the campaign, um, Democrats supporting Republican, and did unbelievable stuff, and his whole family got involved, and it was uh it was a very gratifying and still a friend and great, great guy. 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.559 But I met with a lot of people, and then I'd done my due diligence to it. 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:54.960 There, you know, who's in the news and politics? 00:30:55.119 --> 00:31:01.440 Well, there were these two professors who both were always going, the press were always going to them for comments. 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:10.000 One did a poll, um, and so I wanted to, you know, introduce myself to them again, just not looking for support, but you know, getting information. 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:11.440 Who should I talk to and all that? 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:30.240 So I started to get a little picture of this, and then the one meeting I had was at the state Republican Party office with the executive director there, and um it was funny that two young guys were meeting with me, the communications director too, and they're like just had this look, which I kind of grew to accept, of bewilderment. 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:31.920 Okay, and that was pretty funny. 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:33.519 Uh and I'm asking a lot of questions. 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:35.200 How do you even get on the New Hampshire ballot? 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:35.759 I had no idea. 00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:41.440 Well, it's a thousand dollars once you're declared with the Federal Election Commission, you pay a thousand bucks, you're on the ballot. 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:43.759 A lot of states, it's a lot more complicated. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:50.720 So it was a really educational trip, but the thing that gave me the green light was I spoke, and that was my first day there. 00:31:50.799 --> 00:32:01.119 I'd called this Gay Strait Alliance at the University of New Hampshire in Dover and said, thinking of running for president, gay activist, love to come talk to the group. 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:06.240 And I'd seen that, they were having that meeting that night, and so they said, sure, come, we'll give you 10 minutes. 00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:16.319 So I drove out to Dover in my rent a car, and there um I don't know, 30, 40 kids mostly sitting on the floor of the student union there, and gave my pitch. 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:23.920 And it's actually um it's on my website, Fredcar.com, because I had a flip cam, because the phones didn't take video then. 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:31.680 And one of the students took the video of me, uh, my first speech, um, and got a huge response. 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:36.000 Is that your first official speech or your first absolutely campaign speech? 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:45.599 And it was um very emotional for me because I talked about you know, my uncle who'd committed suicide, my activism, and it was I just kind of told a personal story. 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:47.359 And these kids just reacted. 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:50.000 I got so many positive responses. 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:56.480 We've got interviews of several of the kids, you know, and never even thought of an openly gay candidate running for president. 00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:58.400 You know, it's uh they were intrigued by it. 00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:02.960 And that's the group that I would determine that I wanted to really get involved in my campaign. 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:14.319 College campuses and um GSAs and um college coordinators really were a big part of your campaign, particularly there. 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:22.400 Um did you what what were the other um components to your to to working with or speaking to college students? 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:28.720 Well, that was kind of I determined early on um that they would be more likely to support me. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:34.720 And I wanted to do a big voter registration effort, which of course didn't quite work out in New Hampshire because they have a whole different system. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.480 Um you have to actually go to the town hall in person to register. 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:43.279 You can't have a card table set up at schools, and I'd hope to do that as a part of my campaign. 00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:48.160 But you know, the older, more conservative Republicans I didn't think would be likely to

support me. 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:56.559 The New Hampshire primary works differently than most states, and every state, and I learned quickly, has a different set of rules. 00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:56.960 Yeah. 00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.240 Well, it's just that every primary and every state is different. 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:17.199 And so New Hampshire, they've got a system where the 42% of the independent voters who are registered independent can walk into the polling place and re-register as a Democrat or re-register as Republican, then go vote in the primary, then as they're leaving, change back again to an independent. 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:27.199 So I targeted independent voters specifically because Obama was then nominee, and so why play with the Democratic field? 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:28.960 You got he's gonna get it anyway. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:35.840 You can play and vote for the more liberal, moderate Republican running, of which I was, you know, by far and away the only one. 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:37.519 So that was kind of my core. 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:47.920 The second night I went to Dartmouth to speak to that Gay Strait Alliance, and that's where my grandfather had gone to college, which I whom I was named for. 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:55.760 I never knew he died before I was born, but it had kind of a certain um connection, even though I could have never gotten in there. 00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:01.840 But I went there and spoke to this Gay Strait Alliance, and um again, I got an incredible response. 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:07.119 And these are not, you know, the anybody conservative in there, pretty progressive school. 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.360 And so they became some of my big supporters. 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:22.239 Tyler Ford, who was in that first meeting, invited me to the speak at their Pride, annual Pride event, which was a great honor, at the Rockefeller Center, which is my start in politics when I was 14. 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.639 I was working on Nelson Rockefeller's campaign for president, it's named for him specifically. 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:36.559 So, yeah, this all these things were kind of falling into place, and it really gave me that thumbs up to to go ahead with this, at least give it a try. 00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:38.079 Tell me about the St. 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.679 Anselm straw poll. 00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:40.320 What is that? 00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:43.360 And uh how did that how did that uh play into your candidacy? 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:44.000 Who was St. 00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.039 Anselm anyway? 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:47.760 I uh way back. 00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.400 I determined that you know I'm gonna make New Hampshire my state. 00:35:52.480 --> 00:36:02.559 And I'd get into this later, but I'd gone to Iowa several times at this point, and the caucus thing scared me away because it's you know it's very difficult and need a lot, a lot of money. 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:10.320 So I I

made New Hampshire my battleground, and one of the schools I went to initially was in Manchester suburban, is this St. 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:29.679 Ansom College, which is a Jesuit Catholic college, so pretty conservative, but they had a uh young Republican chapter there, and I got involved with them, supported them financially and everything, and they put on this straw poll every year with all the Republican candidates in it, and it's the first one in New Hampshire, so it gets a huge amount of attention. 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:37.360 And so I made I all hands on deck, and you know, it's a small thing, but it did get a lot of attention, and I'd heard about it. 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:38.639 So I brought our intern. 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:49.920 We had an intern, Matt the intern from San Diego State University, who was in D.C., but he came up and we had the whole team and I would go there for a week every single day campaigning. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:59.519 We had T-shirt day, we gave away the Fred Who t-shirts, we had Fred Frisbee Day, we gave away the Fred Frisbees one day, and I just campaigned like hell. 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:04.960 We had a table set up, and then the day of the vote, and I'd hoped, you know, to finish second, maybe. 00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:16.480 Romney, who's from the neighboring state and the Boston media market, had been governor and you know, well known and you know, favorite to win that nomination, and then Trump even was on the ballot. 00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:21.440 Then he had taken an exploratory trip to New Hampshire just to, you know, fan the flames. 00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:23.599 Nobody thought he was serious, but he was on the ballot. 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:28.719 So a lot of these people, and so as it turned out, I won. 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:32.320 And my and the the swing votes came from Dartmouth. 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.119 And you didn't have to be a student at um St. 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:37.920 Anselms, you could just be, you know, in New Hampshire. 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.159 So Tyler Ford got a van. 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:46.800 I had to buy the pizzas, but he brought down all his whole fraternity house, which put me over the top, and I won the thing. 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:55.760 And there's a great speech of me accepting it, and the president um the young Republicans presented me, or college Republicans rather, presented me with the winning thing. 00:37:55.840 --> 00:38:02.719 And it it was a very decisive factor in turning this, you know, non-serious candidate. 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:08.400 I surprised a lot of people with that, and suddenly started to get treated much more seriously in New Hampshire. 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.199 Tell me about the Washington Post story. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:14.000 That seems like it was uh uh uh crucial. 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.400 So I'm I'd had an event in Washington, D.C. 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:25.440 after, you know, probably being in this for eight or nine months, and I it was I called it my coming out party. 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:34.239 It was at this great gay bar uh to the Washington LGBT establishment, who were of course starting to hear rumblings, but very skeptical and all that. 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:35.280 So I threw this. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:47.599 Mike Manning, who was my celebrity endorsement, who had been on Real World DC that year before, so was very well known there and was helping me like crazy making a lot of appearances, was gonna be the star. 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:54.719 And uh unfortunately he had a cancel because he was at an HRC thing he was working with in Arizona, but he did a wonderful video. 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:56.239 I'm glad you asked. 00:38:56.400 --> 00:39:03.039 Fred Carter is seriously considering running for president in 2012 and would be the first openly gay candidate to do so. 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:04.400 Crazy, right? 00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:05.679 Well, not really. 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:18.159 What is crazy is that members of the LGBT community are still being fired from their jobs because of their sexuality, are still being denied the right to serve in the military, and gay teen suicides are making headline news. 00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:20.719 This is what's crazy, and this needs to stop. 00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.599 You can start to make that happen by supporting Fred Carter. 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:28.559 Fred Carger has already proven himself to be an articulate and passionate advocate for gay rights. 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.639 And having an openly gay candidate for U.S. 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:35.519 president, well, that will make our issues, these gay issues, American issues. 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.559 Thanks a lot, Fred, and uh, you have my support. 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:44.800 And I just wanted to showcase what we're doing and to show I was serious about this. 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:52.800 So I arranged for the diner, which is this great gay bar restaurant, um, to uh you know, to hold it there. 00:39:52.880 --> 00:40:05.440 And I invited everybody who was important and significant, and I knew, of course, a lot of people in DC, so it was a great event, and uh got a lot of press off of it for the first time. 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:14.719 But then a couple months later, I'm at the diner, coincidentally, with Kevin having dinner, and the phone rings, the 202 number, and it's like, hello, yeah, this is Dan Zach. 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:16.880 I'm a reporter with the Washington Post. 00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.119 Oh boy, that's and she said, I'd like to cover your campaign. 00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:24.000 I'd like to come up to New Hampshire for a few days. 00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:30.000 And I had to step outside because are we ready for the Washington Post, which of course ruled. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.199 This is 14, 15 years ago, ruled. 00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:36.079 And so we got to do it, and we're gonna be ready. 00:40:36.159 -->

00:40:39.199 And I'd spent probably, I don't know, four or five trips to New Hampshire. 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.079 I'd usually say at least a week when I'd go there. 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:44.400 So I'd done enough spade work, and sure. 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:58.400 So in January, end of January, we pick them up at the airport and we put this three-day tour together, Kevin and I, and it was a non-stop house parties, a lot of media, a lot of radio interviews, all kinds of things. 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:12.480 Um, and I was one of the causes I'd adopted was the Save the Sagamore Bridge, which they were gonna decommission and was gonna put a lot of these stores out of business, and they'd sought my help because they knew I was uh good at getting stuff done. 00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:14.719 And so we had a big meeting at the Sagamore. 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:16.239 So it's a whole mix of things. 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:21.280 So Dan was so excited, he was going around, he couldn't talk to enough people. 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:27.440 So everywhere we went, radio station, television station, house party, he'd go interview people. 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.079 Dan Zack, Washington Post, what do you think of this? 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:38.000 And so the word of the Washington Post covering the Fred Carger campaign just caught on very quickly. 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.760 Even before the story came out? 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:42.320 Oh, long before the well, the story came out pretty soon. 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:44.719 But yeah, as it was happening in real time. 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:58.960 I mean, it's a small state and the political establishment just this guy, James Pendell, who was on the television station there and had the big exclusive newsletter I subscribed to, who who I had never been able to meet with, suddenly is calling me. 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.000 When can we, you know, grab a coffee or something? 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:15.280 It just completely changed the whole state for me, that one story, and then way beyond New Hampshire, and it's an incredible front page, long, long story that I still kind of get teary-eyed when I read. 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.280 But he just got it, Dan Zack. 00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:24.239 He captured the whole thing, he brought his camera, he took all the pictures, so a lot of pictures, but just all these interviews with people, childhood friends. 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:25.760 He it's quite a piece. 00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:31.039 But importantly, in New Hampshire, it completely changed the dynamic as far as my campaign went. 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:33.840 Opened other doors and every door, yeah. 00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:34.320 Wow. 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:41.920 And then the the the main newspaper in New Hampshire, and each town has one, and they're very loyal. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:45.920 Uh of course, it's changed again in the last 15, 60 years. 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:53.199 But the Manchester Union leader, which then became the New Hampshire Union Leader, was the determining factor, particularly in Republican primaries. 00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:55.599 The owners, the Loeb family, they endorsed Reagan. 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:56.320 Reagan one. 00:42:56.719 --> 00:43:07.119 So whoever they they were passed away, but there was Joe McQuaid was the um publisher at this point, and you know, scared to death of him, very conservative newspaper. 00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:14.320 But I had a one-on-one meeting and editorial board, he was the editorial board of one, with him in his office, uh scared to death. 00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:16.880 He just you know devours people and stuff. 00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:18.960 Could not have been nicer to me. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:20.159 Kevin and I were in there. 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:22.159 First thing he said, I want to show you something. 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:25.519 And he opens the doors to his conference room, night right off his office. 00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.320 He said, We call this the Theodore Roosevelt Room. 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.199 And he said, I know you were a big Theodore Roosevelt fan. 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:36.559 And I was, because he was, I said, the first progressive Republican who ran a hundred years before I did. 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:44.880 So here's this guy, this very conservative Republican, opening the doors to the most liberal Republican president we've ever had, Theodore Roosevelt. 00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:53.679 So those kind of doors that were opened, not just the conference room, but just getting into his office and you know, putting a face on a gay person. 00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:59.760 And then what was funny in these precincts walks we did, you know, every Saturday, different town with a whole group of volunteers. 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.440 Tears, the bagpiper. 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:08.880 We're walking down one street in Manchester, and this uh woman at the house who took the frisbee and she goes, Are you going next door? 00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:10.400 And I go, Yeah, we're going to every house. 00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:11.599 And she goes, You know who lives there? 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:13.440 And I said, No, she said, Joe McQuaid. 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.199 So are you kidding? 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.639 So the publisher of the paper. 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:17.760 So sure enough went there. 00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:20.400 He wasn't there, but his wife was there, took the frisbees and everything. 00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:22.639 And another one was the senator, the U.S. 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:26.800 Senator, Kelly Ayote, who I'd met a few times, and we ended up there. 00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:31.039 We knew we were going to her house because we had the precinct sheet that had the names on it. 00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:33.360 And so she wasn't there, but her husband was. 00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:37.920 And so, you know, she, when I saw her a few days later, she said, Yeah, thanks for the

frisbee. 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:40.239 My husband said he had a nice visit with you. 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.480 So those kind of situations where I would meet a lot of the leadership there. 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.440 I never got to meet the state chairman, John Sununu. 00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:51.119 He was uh not too cooperative, but um, everybody else was. 00:44:51.280 --> 00:45:01.039 I got a really good red carpet there, and I just tried to be you know a pleasant, decent person and put this face on the first gay candidate running for president. 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:02.320 And they they were great. 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:16.400 I get the sense, and you can tell me if I'm I'm wrong about this, that uh most of the people that you met were charmed by you, and that that really had a big effect on like your your warm reception to a lot of places that you wouldn't necessarily have uh imagined it. 00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:24.159 Uh the story that Dan Zach I referred to in the Washington Post, I think in the first paragraph, he said, Fred Carger's a nice guy. 00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:35.760 And I can't tell, you know, in the Washington Post, this first big profile, I mean, that that was my goal. 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.719 And he picked it up instantly. 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.920 Had you not been a nice guy, you wouldn't have gotten the same kind of article. 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.199 So well, you know, it's it helps. 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:45.440 Yeah. 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:54.000 And it one of the things, and I I mean, you can Google Fred Carger for president in thousands and thousands and thousands of stories. 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.280 A lot of international press, they were really fascinated. 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:01.039 The biggest newspapers, magazines, and countries all over the world. 00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:05.440 You know, what are you wasting time talking to the number one magazine in Brazil for? 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:10.159 Well, because I want that message to reach the kids in Brazil who are LGBT. 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:15.440 So, you know, they don't vote in New Hampshire, but you know, I want to affect their lives in a positive way. 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:23.119 So the reporters and the journalists that I was courteous and accessible to and were very went after to get coverage. 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:33.280 We called it the Gary Johnson Strategy, who was the former two-term governor of New Hampshire, of New Mexico, who I became very close to, great, great guy. 00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:41.920 Um, he'd get a lot of positive pieces in Atlantic magazine, big Esquire, because you know, credible guy, wealthy. 00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.639 And so we would call up the Atlantic. 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:48.719 I wouldn't, my communications director wouldn't say, hey, you know, this other candidate you might want to talk to. 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:53.199 I remember the meeting with Chris Good in with the Atlantic in Washington, D.C. 00:46:53.440 --> 00:47:02.159 We had a flight to catch, but Kevin and I go there, we met him at the Watergate of all places, and we had this thing, I had the press kit, I had my aide, we're all both wearing suits. 00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:07.039 And you know, he said, I just I got I can meet you for coffee, it'll be very, very quick, but you know, I'll I'll meet you. 00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:08.880 And so gave him all the stuff. 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.360 And anyway, you could see that he was kind of taking me a little more seriously, it wasn't just a courtesy meeting, and then as I'm on the plane going back, I got the text that said, I'm gonna do a story. 00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:35.599 And so, you know, is it was you know one piece at a time, but when you get a national story in the Atlantic magazine, then or you know, the Washington Post or Mother Jones or these other national uh magazines, newspapers who were covering me, that really elevated my stature. 00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.599 I still missed a lot of opportunities like CNN, not once. 00:47:40.159 --> 00:47:52.000 And I knew several of the journalists' hosts there, but uh MSNBC I was on a lot on every show there, many several times, particularly thanks to Thomas Roberts, who was the first one to put me on. 00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:53.519 That kind of opened the door. 00:47:53.679 --> 00:48:02.239 Um never Fox News, never CNN, but uh a lot of other TV and talk to you about uh MSNBC in a in a subsequent episode. 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:05.199 So we'll we'll uh we'll talk more about that for sure. 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:05.760 Rachel. 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:06.400 Yeah, exactly. 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:07.440 Rachel Mellow. 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:13.039 Uh I understand you had the first very first town hall of the 2012 election. 00:48:13.199 --> 00:48:14.639 What uh what was that? 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:18.320 So town hall is something I heard of on my very first trip. 00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:25.440 It's a candidate who comes to speak to a group of people and then takes questions, and that's considered a town hall. 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:36.880 So somebody I'd become very close to, Susan McNeil, who headed the AIDS organization in Keene, New Hampshire, had become a great supporter of mine, and she offered to put a town hall together for me. 00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:44.800 So we had it at a Mexican restaurant right on Main Street called Margaritas, and as we're driving there, I thought, is anybody gonna show up? 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:46.079 Who's gonna be at this thing? 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:47.199 She organized it. 00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:54.000 And so sure we walk in and it's like 40 or 50 people and free margaritas, which helped. 00:48:54.159 --> 00:49:01.280 John McCain, when he ran for president four years earlier, he had a first town hall, it had like 20 people, he gave away donuts. 00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.599 So I think I I think I was thought I was onto something with the margaritas.

00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.199 But it was an incredible time. 00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:11.119 I had John Kaitello was doing the documentary on the campaign and our commercials. 00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:13.199 He was there, so he captured the whole thing. 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:22.559 But it was just great interchange, gave everybody t-shirts, and it was it was the first, and it got a lot of coverage too, and sent the message that this is a serious campaign. 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:25.760 And was I was on such a high after that for so long. 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.880 We did one other town hall at the uh initially at the gay bar in Manchester, the element. 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:35.519 We had an open bar for an hour, which I was warned, you know, it's gonna break the bank. 00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:37.519 And I said, how bad can it be? 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:38.960 Well, how bad was it? 00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:40.159 Three grand. 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:40.800 Okay. 00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:42.960 But it was an incredible event. 00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:51.760 Again, it was kind of my coming out party to the LGBT community in Manchester, and it was a hugely successful event and paid, you know, dividends for years. 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:56.719 So yeah, I did the grassroots organizing that is what they that's what they love in New Hampshire. 00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:02.800 Uh does t does town hall itself has it have an official like function in terms of your candidacy? 00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:11.119 It's just you know, something you organize or someone organizes for you, like Susan did when you just you give a give a talk and then you have to take questions. 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:12.559 That's the two requirements. 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:14.079 I took questions all the time, anyway. 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:15.039 I mean, that's part of it. 00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:18.960 But those are the as told to me the two specific requirements. 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.119 You can, you know, treat people or not. 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:26.079 But yeah, I'll we had a lot of uh margaritas throughout the campaign. 00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:28.559 It's a continuing theme. 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:36.719 In New Hampshire, Fred had found proof that an openly gay candidate could compete for attention and even find people willing to take him seriously. 00:50:36.960 --> 00:50:41.119 Future campaign stops would test what happened when the welcome was less certain. 00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:47.760 For more on this historic campaign, please join us for the next episode of Fred Who Part Two, A Legacy Project. 00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.280 Thank you for joining us for Fred Who Part Two, A Legacy Project. 00:50:55.679 --> 00:51:04.559 This episode featured Fred Carger in conversation with interviewer Matthew Breen, produced for PHM Studio by Josh Rosenzweig and Matthew Breen. 00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:06.800 Executive producer Fred Carger. 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:09.599 Original music composed by Nell Balaman. 00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:11.840 Graphic design by David Serrano. 00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:16.559 If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.