התמלול המלא של Jim Grover

inspiring man, I realized that, you know, this is all about selfless service, you know, selfless service in the community. 00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:58.879 And so the so if you like, the visuals, you know, were used to communicate that. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:07.920 That here is someone who you may be familiar with in the Sunday service, you know, giving the, giving the sermon, but actually it's a 24-7 job. 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:17.360 And, you know, at all times you are in service of your parish uh to give spiritual strength, to share your faith uh with others. 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:29.199 Uh and so so documentary photography is not just you know assembling a series of images that the viewer happens to like for whatever reason, uh, but it's also about saying something. 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:31.199 You need to use your voice to say something. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:36.720 And so what I found is that, you know, you say so you take the cafe, you mentioned the cafe story. 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:47.439 So in in Clapham, there's a little local traditional, we'd we'd call it a builder's caffeine, you know, a cafe used by builders in the morning to get big, hearty breakfast before they start their work. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:52.480 And they're typically fry-ups, you know, bacon, eggs, pudding, fried bread. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:53.600 They're fantastic. 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.199 Um, and very traditional. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:57.759 Uh, not very healthy, by the way, but delicious. 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:06.000 Uh, and you know, when I discovered that this cafe was celebrating its 21st birthday, I thought that's remarkable. 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:13.439 You know, to basically have a family traditional CAF, you know, run by the same husband and wife teams for 21 years, that's extraordinary. 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.560 You know, that by itself was something I wanted to say. 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:18.720 But then I discovered actually it was a community. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:21.680 You know, the the people who go in are regulars. 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:25.360 They're in there, you know, kind of every day at typically the same time. 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:28.399 And for them, therefore, it's a community. 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:44.399 Uh, and so I also wanted to share this notion that, you know, it's not just, you know, at one level, it's a cafe that is that is giving sustenance to people who want to buy lunch or breakfast or whatever, but also for those who want it, typically older people, it's offering community. 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:54.160 You can go in there, you'll meet the same people, have a chat, uh, and you'll feel safe and at ease before you head out into the big wide world again for another 24 hours before you come back again. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.800 So I wanted to kind of say this is a community. 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:58.639 It's not just a cafe, it's a community. 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.839 So I'm trying to always find something to say about my stories. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.800 Jim, and there's a lot I want to unpack in there. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:13.360 And and first of all, I should point out that on your website, and everybody it's Jim Groverphotography.com, spelled exactly the way you would imagine. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.160 You've actually got two stories about the cafe. 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:22.399 You you've got life in the cafe as one gallery, and then you've got the regulars uh as a completely different gallery. 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:24.480 So you discovered two things in there. 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:28.879 But I want to step back one second, you talk about having something to say. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:38.800 I know it's not a it's a I know it's not an irrevocable decision, but how do you decide whether you're telling their story or you're telling your own story about them? 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.720 Okay, so it has to be the latter because uh for me it has to be the latter. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:55.439 It has to be because you are the, if you like, you are the documentary photographer, you know, you've got to decide what you want to say about the subject matter that you are exploring. 00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:02.000 That subject matter might be an individual, you know, like my parish priest uh or my current project, Maurice Dorfman. 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:06.959 It might be about a place, a cafe, it might be about a bench, you know, on the common. 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:15.199 But you've got to decide what you want to say, you know, using imagery, because you know, we're visual, you know, we're visual communicators here. 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:19.920 You've got to decide what you want to say about whatever you've chosen to document. 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:20.959 Okay. 00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:28.800 And by the way, I, you know, full disclosure here, I'm a little bit angry with you about the bench project because I got one I just started and you beat me to it. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:34.000 Um I think I think that's a great idea. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.720 And I was I was loving going through it through those images. 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.200 I want to go back to your priest for a second. 00:08:39.840 --> 00:08:44.240 You talk about the kind of patience to discover what you want to say. 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:49.039 How photographically did the idea of service come to you? 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:59.039 Actually, this is this is actually a really interesting story, this one, because when I this is my first ever story, my first piece of documentary photography, because I've been challenged by someone. 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:05.600 I unlike many photographers, I'd always sort of taken my camera out and snapped things on the street and some landscapes and some people or whatever it might be. 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.039 But there was never, you know, more than just a set of individual images. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:15.120 And so the

challenge was, uh, Jim, find yourself a subject that you can really immerse yourself in. 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:20.879 You know, get under the skin of it, you know, get to know the characters, what's going on, what's the story. 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:25.200 And when I when I started this story, I had no idea. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:30.799 I was literally, this is my first ever piece of documentary work, and I had no idea what I was going to discover. 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:42.240 What what led me to explore this subject was that I thought to myself, okay, everyone knows what a parish priest does on Sundays and, you know, weddings and funerals and baptisms. 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:44.480 But what do they do for the rest of the week? 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:56.480 You know, so that was my my inquiry, for like my curiosity was, you know, I don't know what on earth a parish priest in the Church of England in a South London parish does, you know, Monday to Saturday. 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:57.600 I haven't got a clue. 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:08.399 And so, so if you like, my interest was first of all to explore, okay, so what exactly does, you know, Kit, his name is Kit, my my priest, what does he do? 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:26.799 And by discovering what he did, that that's when I realized, you know, what he really did, which was to kind of, you know, take his faith into the community for those who wanted, you know, spiritual leadership and the strength he could bring to bear. 00:10:27.039 --> 00:10:28.799 He was there, willing to give it. 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:35.840 And, you know, his mindset was, you know, I am here, you know, to serve God in my community. 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.639 I had a very interesting early conversation with him. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.919 My background is business. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:43.360 I was a corporate, you know, uh guy running around the world for multinational. 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:51.759 And of course, you know, corporates have got, you know, quite rigorous appraisal systems so they can kind of tell each individual, you know, how are you doing? 00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:54.639 You know, you know, what's your development plan, all that good stuff. 00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:00.080 And early on I asked Kit, so Kit, you know, kind of, you know, who who appraises you? 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.039 You know, you know, what's what's the appraisal process in the Church of England? 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:06.240 Thinking there'd be some sort of forms and templates. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:11.120 And uh, you know, that didn't go very far, that conversation, because there isn't anything. 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:14.480 So I said, you know, Kit, so, you know, who are you accountable to? 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:20.480 You know, because in in a corporate environment, you're you're typically accountable to your boss, whoever he or she is. 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:25.200 And that's a kind of there's a clear sort of structure in place,

and everyone understands how the organization structure. 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:28.639 And as Kit looked at me and said, Jim, I'm I'm accountable to God. 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:49.200 I'm accountable to God, and I'm accountable to myself to serve God as best I can in this community and give the community everything I possibly can that I'm able to, you know, and so and so that sort of, you know, really profound, you know, kind of conversation, incredible sort of conversation. 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:57.279 And, you know, so that so that then led to me, you know, kind of partnering with him, going on home visits into care homes. 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:02.480 You know, so the more time I spent with him, you know, the more I saw what he did with his time. 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.120 And that's when it sort of all clicked into place. 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.279 This is all about selfless service. 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.879 How did you negotiate the issues of privacy? 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.799 Um, it's a great question. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:19.840 Um, it's actually, people always ask this question, particularly those on my sort of workshops, you know, how do you get all these permissions and everything? 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:28.399 And the first thing I say to them, okay, so the first thing to understand is a documentary photography, the most precious thing you need to get is access. 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:40.000 You've got to earn, you know, access so that people are willing to have you be in their midst, you know, and take photographs, because ultimately that's what you're going to need to do. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:47.360 And, you know, that takes time, you know, that takes time to get because you've got to build up trust and trusted relationships. 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.279 I don't find that to be a problem, actually. 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:55.679 It's very rare I'll find someone saying, look, I don't want to be part of your project, Jim, because they tend to like the project I'm kind of embarked upon. 00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:04.480 I'll I'll show them some of the images I'm creating so they can see the sort of work I'm creating and you know what sort of images I'm trying to, you know, kind of create. 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:24.000 Uh, but in something like when you're doing a project with some with someone like Kit and you're kind of on his shoulder, sort of wandering around with him in the parish, you know, basically people immediately accept you because they know that the the you know, the fact that Kit has, you know, given you permission to be with him, that's all they need to know. 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.240 You know, that they just assume this is all fine because Kit's got this guy working with him, that's great. 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:31.679 As far as I'm happy, you know, I'm happy because I'm happy with Kit, therefore I'm happy with Jim. 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.879 Um obviously it requires different approaches and different situations. 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.120 In the cafe, for example, I just spent a lot of time there, you know, chatting to the locals. 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.440 Uh, because I I'm you have to be genuinely interested in people, and I really am. 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:49.919 You have to be interested in people, their stories, you know, and you know, genuinely be engaged by those stories. 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:53.440 And so in the cafe, I just spent time there, chatting with the regulars, you know. 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:54.960 Eventually I got my camera out. 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:10.960 And actually, what was funny about that story is you, as you say, the the way the cafe's split, there are sort of two walls, one on the left, one on the right, as you go in, and the left-hand wall, as you say, has got kind of everyday cafe life, kind of classic reportage, you know, documentary photography, you know, kind of crazy cafe life. 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.240 And on the right are all these portraits of the regulars, because I who make up the community. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:22.639 And it says a few things about, you know, how long we've been coming for the cafe for and what were you doing before you, you know, what's your job or whatever. 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.559 And we had people saying, I really want to be in this, in this, uh, on this wall. 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:33.679 We had people after the wall was filled up, people sort of chasing the uh the owner of the cast saying, please can you get Jim to come and do my photograph? 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:34.720 I want to be on the wall. 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:52.559 Um, so actually, it's uh so I I find that because I'm typically celebrating life, I'm typically celebrating life or the lives of individuals, celebrating communities, you know, that's a very uplifting, kind of, you know, heartwarming thing to be doing, celebrating life. 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:59.200 And so people tend to be, certainly for me, very willing to be part of the stories that I want to tell. 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:02.960 Because without their, you know, without their consent, if you like, it wouldn't happen. 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:11.840 But I I don't, for example, get bogged down in getting consent forms and model release forms because that kills the, you know, it just kills the mood and the moment. 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:20.639 You know, what I'll tend to do is when I get close to finalizing an exhibition or a book, I'll then go back and just get permission for people, are you happy to be in this? 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:23.679 So rarely do I get someone saying, no, I don't want to be in it. 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:24.159 Thanks. 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.320 I think everyone's now so familiar with mobile phones. 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:31.279 People are used to having images, you know, taken by them, of them, you know, with them. 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:36.399 And by and large, people, you know, just love being part

of what I'm doing, which makes my life much easier. 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:43.919 Jim, what do you do when you get the necessary photograph that's not especially flattering? 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:46.960 So that's a that's a really good question. 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:52.720 I will tend, um, okay, I'll tend probably not to use it. 00:15:52.879 --> 00:16:00.159 Um, you know, I I I don't want to portray people in ways they wouldn't want to be portrayed. 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.039 You know, um, you know, someone might say to me, Jim, I hate how I look. 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.399 I say, no, you look beautiful. 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.080 You look absolutely beautiful, trust me. 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:12.879 You know, so so you know, so I I I will sometimes end up persuading someone who doesn't like the way they look in a certain photo. 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.960 I'm saying, no, actually, you look absolutely lovely, trust me. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.840 Trust me on this, you look wonderful, and you'll look lovely in this total set of images as one of them. 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:26.799 Uh, but if you know if someone, for example, it's very hard to photograph someone eating food and making them look good. 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:32.960 So I tend to not photograph people eating food because I know that it never makes for good photographs. 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:38.879 Similarly, it's never worth trying to photograph someone who really doesn't want to be photographed. 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:40.480 It never makes for a good image. 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:56.159 So I, you know, so if so if I quickly suss out, if I don't know, 25 people in a room that I'm in and I'm photographing, I don't know, a dominoes community, uh, which I've done a few times, and I know there's one person who really doesn't like being photographed, you know, I won't, I won't spend time trying to persuade him or her because it's not worth it. 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:01.120 You know, they they've decided they don't want to be photographed, and they tend to make for not terribly interesting images. 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.759 I suppose you could say I'm quite a kind photographer. 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:04.960 I want people to look good. 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.079 Doesn't mean I'm gonna, you know, sort of uh stage them. 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:15.440 I sort I want to catch candid moments uh and I want them to be, you know, looking how they always look, you know, authentic, real life. 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:23.279 But if I if there's a really unflattering photograph, I, you know, I almost certainly won't use it because I don't want to kind of I don't want to, you know, be hurtful to someone. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:25.279 It's just not my my persona. 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:33.839 But to go back to the story with your priest or something um, you know, a little bit more current like Windrush or or the cafe or the bench, yeah. 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:41.440 What what you know if

you get somebody in a moment of anguish, let's say, or or or a moment of real I mean, I'm not talking unflattering, like they don't look good. 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:41.839 Yeah. 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:46.799 Um, but emotional vulnerability, are you going to step toward or away or negotiate that one? 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:48.240 That's a great question. 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:49.680 Uh I I've done both. 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:50.480 I've done both. 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.680 So here's an example. 00:17:51.839 --> 00:18:06.880 On the bench story, so for those who don't know the bench story, basically um every day during August, um, I decide that I was going to photograph someone who just sat down on a particular bench by a pond in Clapham. 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:08.160 I wouldn't know him or her. 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:10.000 I'd ask them a couple of quick questions. 00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:11.599 How has COVID affected you? 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.119 And how long have you been coming to this bench, if you like? 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:20.880 And then I'd take a couple of couple of uh portraits, and then once I'd got that portrait for the day, that was it. 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:22.720 I'd wake, come back the next day, and do it again. 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:33.440 Um, so I was kind of just it was the sort of randomness of seeing who turned up at the bench, photograph them, that was it for the day, and then I'd go home and come back the next day. 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:46.079 The very last, and what was interesting about this story, of course, is when you ask about how's COVID affected you, you get the full array of responses from people saying, actually, it's been quite nice. 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:55.519 I've been working from home and I've been seeing my young family grow up around me, or I don't know, I work for a food courier company, I've been busy as anything, made lots of money. 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.920 Actually, COVID's been quite good to me. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:11.519 And then at the other extreme, on the very last day, very last day, little old lady sat down, beautiful lady, wearing a lovely beautiful coat, and lady she's called Yvonne, and I started chatting with her. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:16.880 And she said, When I asked her, so how's COVID affected you? 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.160 She said, and I always record on a mobile phone. 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:24.880 So to rather than take notes, I just put the mobile phone down and just let people say, just ignore this, just talk. 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.720 And uh I put the phone down and say, just how's COVID affects you? 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:34.480 And the story goes that, you know, she says, Well, actually, it's kind of changed my life. 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:37.200 And she gets very emotional. 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:51.759 And she tells me how her husband was admitted to hospital without COVID, caught COVID in hospital and died in hospital. 00:19:52.400 --> 00:20:03.680 And it was a time when, you know, relatives were not able to visit their loved ones as they slipped away because of the fear of the infection, so she couldn't be with him. 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.240 And they had to, it was a long time before they could even bury him. 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.160 And this was obviously, you know, hugely emotional, you know, for her. 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:13.119 Unbelievable. 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:14.960 I mean, I was just almost crying with her. 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:16.319 It was so moving. 00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:18.880 You know, for that I I need to I need to capture that. 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:23.359 That's a really important story, and very sensitively, you know, photograph her. 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.039 And she was, you know, very happy to do that, which is very kind of her. 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:33.440 So that in that case, you know, I kind of walked towards, if you like, the emotion because I knew it was really, it was a really important story to tell. 00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:35.119 Really important story to tell. 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:43.920 Um by the way, I should interrupt you there to tell everybody you need to go look at this image because the woman is sitting on a bench, but the bench is a memorial bench. 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.960 So there is that uh emotion going on as well. 00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:47.519 Exactly. 00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:49.839 Um, there's there's a small bouquet of flowers. 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:53.759 And there's a really interesting bit in your web design. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.799 Um, when you mouse over the picture, that story appears. 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:57.119 Yeah. 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:57.359 Yeah. 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:57.759 That's fine. 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:03.920 Um so there's a really interesting interplay between the image and then the text going with it. 00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:05.119 So anyway, go on. 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:06.960 Anyways, no, there's actually we'll come back to that. 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:12.799 I think that actually very often it's the combination of the text, the narrative, and the imagery that the sort of one plus one equals five. 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.599 Um there, but here's another example, right? 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:32.400 So so with the project with my priest, it's Christmas Day, and uh one of the regulars before the Christmas Day service starts to have a conversation with Kit, and she burst into tears. 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.680 And uh the photographer in me said, This is an amazing moment. 00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:41.519 You know, she's collapsing in tears, you know, with Kit. 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.480 And of course, photographer saying, This is a really amazing moment. 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:46.480 I need to capture this, but I actually couldn't. 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.119 I couldn't, I thought this is this is just inappropriate. 00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.559 This is an incredibly,

you know, intense moment. 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.680 I it would be intrusive of me to step in, because I always use very short lenses, 35 mil. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.119 Uh 28 mil or whatever, and it would just be inappropriate. 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:06.960 So I think so I judge it, you know, moment by moment. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:08.480 I'll give you one other example. 00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:22.240 I've done a lot of work with the Caribbean community here in London, uh, and they've kind of you know welcomed me into their lives, which has been incredibly kind of them, and I've been asked to photograph various of their funerals for them, and also for my documentary work. 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:36.160 And it they are very unique and distinctive Caribbean uh funerals, and they typically have an open casket, open coffin in the church service so people can come up and you know pay their respects. 00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:49.279 And the first time I photographed one of these, I just didn't think it was appropriate to photograph this beautiful woman lying in the casket, even though other people come out with mobile phones, because they regard it as just completely normal. 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:50.559 I I I just couldn't. 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.440 It was just for me, it was sort of culturally too difficult. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:23:14.319 But uh, but I realized actually that this is such an important part of the of the whole funeral and grieving process that actually by the time I'd photographed the next one with an open casket, I was much more, you know, I just knew I had to photograph the open casket uh to do it sensitively and beautifully, but I had to do that. 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:21.759 You learn what you're willing to do and how far you're willing to push yourself into difficult moments. 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:27.920 Because of course, the difficult moments, you know, make for incredibly evocative, emotive stories. 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:37.039 That, you know, that you know, I I I I frequently end up, I don't know why, when I exhibit in galleries uh my work, very often we have people in tears. 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:44.799 Because my imagery has got the potential for some people to really kind of cause an emotional connection. 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:46.880 And I don't go in there wanting to cry. 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:48.319 That's not my ambition at all. 00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.599 I want people just to kind of be stimulated, provoked, engaged, intrigued, and hear my voice if you like. 00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:07.359 But um uh on this uh on this story about Kit, my parish priest, uh it's the last day of the exhibition and Sunday afternoon, and I suddenly as a woman is in front of one of the pictures and she's crying. 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.680 And so I go up and say, you know, you okay? 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:16.480 And she said, No, look, I just want you to know that my husband has no idea what I do as a priest. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.960 Because she was a priest too, she was a uh priest. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.400 She said, My husband has no idea what I do. 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:28.720 What you've created here brings to life what I do, and I'm so grateful for you doing it. 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:31.759 And now I can show my husband what I do, and he'll understand. 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.799 And for her, that was a sort of a breakdown moment. 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:52.240 She was just so moved to see her life, you know, her role revealed, you know, because obviously she's a she's also a Church of England priest, and she's a uh a woman, so she's had some other challenges because the it was quite difficult being a woman priest initially, this country. 00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:54.000 And it moved her to tears. 00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:59.519 And actually, the current exhibition I've got about this man, Maurice Thorphan, will come to in a second, I'm sure. 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:13.599 I have several people have been in tears on this one because they they knew him, and the exhibition has revealed a huge part of his life they knew nothing about, and they wish they'd spent more time with him. 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:17.440 They come away thinking, I wish I'd spent more time with him, I wish I'd known that. 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:28.559 And because in the exhibition I'm also playing a sort of 30-minute reel, which includes some audio conversations I had with him, you can hear his voice. 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:42.240 So if you knew the man, you suddenly find yourself viewing images of his life that you didn't know he led, and then you hear him talking in the background, and you just kind of just for some people just absolutely grabs, you know, grabs their emotions. 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:48.400 And uh I I would love to hear that because in in the book you have transcripts of something in his own voice. 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.519 Yeah, um, I I would love to hear the his own voice as well. 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:58.079 And and we're certainly going to get to that book in just a minute, but there's one other question from your website that I found intriguing. 00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:07.200 You make a distinction between projects, yeah, you know, COVID tales from Thomas Bench, here I am, things not seen, and then something called short stories. 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:07.440 Yeah. 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:12.640 Going back to this notion of narrative, of documentary work being telling a story, yeah. 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:16.640 What's the difference for you between a project and a short story? 00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.480 Okay, so so that's really more yes. 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:19.680 Okay, so a project. 00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:33.359 So my my work, uh, when I immerse myself in a new story, you know, typically they will be long-term projects, you know, kind of Morrisdorf, Michael. 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.839 That's that's been 18 months of my life. 00:26:36.079 -->

00:26:42.559 Kit, I wanted to spend a whole year, you know, documenting, if you like, a year in the life of a parish priest. 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.200 You know, even the COVID tales from Tom's Bench, that was a whole month, you know. 00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:55.200 So so they tend to be, you know, longer, you know, you know, long immersions in a subject matter, usually months. 00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:03.039 Whereas I might just go out there, you know, spend a few hours shooting, I don't know, Westminster Bridge or, you know, kind of shadows. 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.839 And that to me is just a you know, just a little short story. 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:11.440 Um, a few days in Moscow, uh on the streets in Moscow, you know, a football match. 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:18.799 I mean, that to me that they they they they aren't really, they aren't, they they're they're just short little stories because I'm not saying anything really. 00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:25.680 I'm just I'm just trying to assemble a bunch of images that I think you know a viewer might enjoy that together work as a group. 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:37.200 Uh and that's different from a project when I'm immersing myself in for something for a long time, and I would I really want to get to know the subject matter, whatever that might be. 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:43.039 And I want to also decide, having immersed myself in it, what do I want to say? 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:44.400 What's my voice? 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:49.279 Um, because the thing about also, you know, documentography, it's not objective. 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:52.720 You know, people often say, you know, it's objective, it's not objective. 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.079 It can't be because it's something that you know you or I create. 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.240 Therefore, it's very personal. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:03.279 You know, it's my view of what I'm seeing and want to share. 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:05.279 So it's not really objective. 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.680 Uh, each person will come in a different way. 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.359 It's a it's a personal thing. 00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:20.960 I always say to people that you know, you you're probably going to be helped by working with a curator or someone to help you edit your work because most documentary photographers are terrible at editing their own work. 00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:30.480 They just can't, you know, sift out, you know, the gems from the stuff they're emotionally connected with, but which actually aren't terribly interesting images. 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:34.720 But ultimately, I say to you know, people, ultimately, it's your work. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:43.200 So if you end up disagreeing with your creator, which can be a really healthy piece of creative tension, ultimately you make the call because it's your work, it's your voice. 00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:44.960 And curators know that, they recognize that. 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:47.119 They'll say, Jim, I'd recommend this. 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.720 And I might say, Yeah, I agree with you. 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.640 Or I might say, you know what, I don't agree with that. 00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.440 I think this is a this is the more important image, and here's why. 00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:00.079 And we may have a big debate for half an hour, but ultimately, you know, the curator knows that it's ultimately my work, and I get the call. 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.279 And that's that's and I'll I'll live or die by that. 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.039 Let's take just a quick break. 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:14.400 We hope very much that you are enjoying today's episode. 00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:20.799 The very fact that you are listening to this podcast suggests that photography means a lot to you. 00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:27.440 And if that's the case, you might want to have a look at Frames, quarterly printed photography magazine. 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:31.920 We truly believe that excellent photography belongs on paper. 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:36.240 Visit readframes.com to find out more about our publication. 00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.920 And now, back to today's conversation. 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:53.680 You know, curators for uh photographers, just like editors for writers, are uh absolutely necessary for that little bit of perspective and depth, you know, depth of knowledge and history and stuff. 00:29:54.000 --> 00:30:02.480 Jim, you have created a book, an exhibition that is profound and remarkable and frankly huge. 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:09.920 Um I think you know, if you were to say the life of Maurice Dorfman was a photo book, you've done a great disservice. 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:11.119 You've written a biography. 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:24.799 Um you have written a full-blown biography, including all sorts of images, both that you took and then images of documents and stuff that seem to just, you know, appear. 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.440 I mean, not I don't mean the work, but I mean the the subject. 00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:31.279 So tell everybody first of all, just give give us the rundown. 00:30:31.359 --> 00:30:32.559 What is this this project? 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:33.440 Where did it start? 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:37.359 Okay, so this is a uh It is huge. 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:39.279 This is huge, and it's quite some story. 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:42.240 So um here's how this story started. 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:46.720 And uh very often I find one story I work on leads to another, you know, down the road. 00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:56.720 So back in 2016, I did a story all about the high street on in Clapham, my local high street. 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:03.599 And it was called 48 Hours on Clapham High Street, because I wanted to if you like live you know round the clock. 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:22.160 What's this high street like, you know, at three in the morning and at 10 in the morning, middle of the night, middle of the day, I

wanted to kind of bring to life this extraordinary high street because actually it's alive all through the night because it's got a very full-on bar, you know, kind of uh restaurant scene. 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:32.880 Um, and anyway, as part of that, I went into this shop for the very first time in my life called Jeanette Fashions, uh, that had a rather kind of faded look to it from the outside. 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:34.480 It's a habadashery shop. 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:42.160 Went into it for the very first time, pushed the door open, it triggered a sort of you know, homemade shop bell to tinkle above me. 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:50.640 Uh I was confronted by this big, empty, kind of cavernous, you know, shop that was sort of clearly had its, it was past its best years, if you like. 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.160 It was starting to look a bit faded, there wasn't a huge amount of stock. 00:31:54.240 --> 00:32:04.480 Um, and right at the far end was this man standing behind his cutting table, which is what habitashers have, big cutting table to cut fabrics, um, called Maurice Dorfman. 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:05.839 And I'd never met him before. 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.519 I'd never been to his shop before. 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.000 I told him I was doing this story about the high street. 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.400 I'm just talking to people about, you know, life on the high street. 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:22.640 Anyway, what quickly transpired in that first conversation was that, you know, he had been trading from this high street shop for 66 years. 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:31.440 He's the it was the longest, you know, kind of traditional retailer on the high street, which I thought, wow, 60 years. 00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:35.279 You must have seen a few changes in your life over six decades. 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.359 You know, that was sort of older than me. 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.519 And also, I saw someone who was living by himself alone. 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:46.720 He was at that point in his mid-80s, and every day he was still opening the shop all by himself. 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.880 And so every time I was down the far end of the high street, it's it's at the far end. 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:52.079 There are two ends of the high street. 00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:58.559 There's the kind of the sort of the more affluent end with a big supermarket and the post office and a bank. 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:03.839 And then there's the sort of less affluent end further down, and his shop is at the sort of less affluent end. 00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:08.880 But anyway, every time I was in that end of the high street, I just drop in, say hello, how are things, Maurice? 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:10.880 He always had music playing, we just chat. 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:12.400 So I just sort of to keep him company. 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:18.240 It was just purely, just I just enjoyed dropping by, having a chat, nothing more than that. 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:25.039 And then he got very ill just after Christmas 2019 and got admitted to hospital. 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:29.920 And four of us who'd kind of, you know, were similarly kind of, you know, had befriended him. 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:33.440 He had no family, he was completely without any family, direct family. 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:36.160 We took it in turns to kind of you know look after in hospitals. 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.559 He's always there was always someone there to keep an eye on him. 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:40.640 And then uh he died. 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.240 He died in February, just before COVID struck this country. 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:51.359 And so I thought it was important to communicate to the locals in the high street that Maurice had had passed away. 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:59.680 So I put in the window some big portraits and images I'd created back in 2016 as part of this other project, because I'd photographed him. 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:03.359 And, you know, signs saying, you know, sadly Morris is now no more. 00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:06.960 Six decades of high street trading comes to an end. 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.760 And it the response was extraordinary. 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:17.840 So many people sort of stopped on the pavement, you know, looked at all these images, and they'd start to talk to each other. 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:28.000 They'd talk, they'd talk to strangers because so many of them, once you've been on the high street for six decades, you know, so many people had sort of been in the shop and had got to know them. 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:29.760 So people were sharing their experiences. 00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:33.440 And, you know, Clappham wasn't then a very wealthy part of London. 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:39.199 Uh, and so you probably, if you were a woman of a certain age, you probably made your own clothes and made your clothes for children. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.760 So you bought the patterns and the fabrics for Maurice. 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:48.400 So they all knew, you know, Morris through that experience of dressmaking and knitting and you know, making crochet. 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:50.400 Um, so I thought, wow, this is amazing. 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:51.760 There's something going on here. 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:57.039 Um, you know, people, you know, have this huge affection for this man, and now he's past. 00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.880 I need to do something more than just have a few pictures in his window. 00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:11.920 So the idea of a tribute exhibition came to mind that I'd I'd try and find out more about his life, and I'd tell a bigger story about his total life, not knowing what that really was. 00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:18.800 Um anyway, so I raised some money through Kickstarter and I thought it would be a short, you know, three to six month project. 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:25.360 Uh, and I'd have a small exhibition in his shop, be a good place I thought,

to exhibit it, and then blow me down. 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:31.199 You know, the more I researched his life, the more people I talked to. 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:37.519 I ended up interviewing almost 70 people, seven, zero people who, you know, wanted to share their stories about him. 00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:43.119 The more I discovered about him, the more this remarkable life, you know, emerged. 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:45.599 He had, he had an extraordinary life. 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.039 Um, and so it became an 18-month project. 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:57.039 I decided I had to write a book with it because, you know, obviously an exhibition is one thing, but you don't want to overwhelm people with text in an exhibition. 00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.039 So I decided to write a book with it. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:00.639 And then it's being exhibited right now. 00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.000 Actually, got a second extra month. 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:03.519 It's gone really well here in Clapham. 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:11.920 And it the it's it's taken over the entire, there's a big library here in Clapham, modern building, and they've given me the entire space, and it kind of weaves its way through the whole building because it's enormous. 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:13.360 It's the exhibition is huge. 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.960 So that's I wish I could get over there and see that. 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:21.039 Let's let's just talk a little bit about research and access again. 00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:28.880 You say in the book that you know, because of the earlier project, you had about 90 minutes of audio tapes, yeah, which you could then transcribe. 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:30.320 And so you had that. 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:32.960 But you've I mean you're not related to this guy. 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:40.719 I mean, you you are not family, and suddenly you've got all of this personal documentation, government documentation, that kind of stuff. 00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.719 How did you go about accessing the material you needed? 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:45.760 Great question. 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.559 I and I when I started out, I wasn't sure how I was going to do this. 00:36:48.719 --> 00:36:58.159 Um, firstly, he had distant family, and uh they were happy to let me during COVID sort of you know photograph inside the shop, obviously, because it's now empty. 00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:00.079 He's die, he's died, so the place is empty. 00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:02.400 The this huge building is basically empty. 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:06.400 So they were very happy for me to wander around the shop and his home and take photographs. 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:14.880 When I'd been talking to him in the past, he'd kind of got uh sort of envelopes out of his drawers and show me one or two pictures of his national service. 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:16.880 So I knew some things about him. 00:37:17.039 --> 00:37:31.840 So that was the first source of material, you know, photographs I could create for myself or photographs that I discovered in his home or his flat, including some wonderful codachrome slides from 1961, which I had digitized and cleaned up. 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:33.119 So that's one source. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:43.199 Second source was that I basically found the genealogist, you know, who's really good at researching, you know, the history of family trees, if you like. 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.840 Because if you know how to do that, it's amazing what's possible now. 00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:48.480 It's not something I've done in my life, so I've not a skill I have. 00:37:48.639 --> 00:38:03.119 But he was able to kind of you know document the family tree and go all the way back to his grandparents who came from this makes it so poignant, who who fled Ukraine, which was then part of Russia. 00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:15.679 They were Jewish, they were escaping the kind of anti-Semitic pogrons in what was then Russia and came to London's East End as refugees in 1902, which of course is incredibly poignant given what's happening right now. 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:22.960 Um, so he managed to trace the family all the way back to that with sort of government forms that you can now get online. 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:25.199 Uh so that was the second source. 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:35.360 The third source was as I interviewed all these people, they'd often say, Oh, I've got a photograph you might like to see, Jim, or I've still got some dress patterns from 1985. 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:35.920 Do you want that? 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.159 And so I said it to everyone, I'm collecting objects. 00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.880 If you've got anything you think I'm interested in, let me have it. 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:53.679 So, so if you like, I started to collect, you know, objects, including I found the daughter of his first girlfriend from the 1960s, who is now a whipping photographer thing, living in the States. 00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:59.039 Uh and she still had lots of photographs, you know, of her mum with Maurice, and she would be there as well. 00:38:59.119 --> 00:39:01.440 Uh, so those came actually all the way from the States. 00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:02.880 So that was the third source. 00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:14.079 And the last source, and probably the luckiest break I had in piecing this together, is I found in Maurice's shop his really old phone direct, his phone book. 00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:14.880 Really old. 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:18.480 You know, most of the phone numbers were dead, you know, disconnected years ago. 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:29.440 But out of that, you know, a dozen or so really helpful conversations, you know, opened up that they were all so excited that this was being done for Morris, because obviously they they were in the book because they knew him. 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:31.280 So they there was a relationship there. 00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:37.760 So they also shared all their stories

and you know, ended up with 140 pages of interview transcripts. 00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:42.079 So, you know, masses and masses of data uh over the 18 months. 00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:57.760 The challenge then, again, working with a really good exhibition curator was how do you take all that you know rich material and just sit it down to something that is, you know, that is that is possible for a viewer to kind of you know engage with and not get bored to tears by. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.400 So that's so that's that's where the material all came from. 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.480 So when you're putting this together, I mean, forget the exhibition for a second. 00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:12.320 When you're putting the book together, did you find a tension between text and image just in your own creativity, or was it always a compliment? 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:14.159 Uh so the text was always a compliment. 00:40:14.239 --> 00:40:16.480 So you know, I am first and foremost a visual storyteller. 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:22.320 You know, I want to tell, I want to tell stories and say something with images first and foremost. 00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:29.920 I've I've learned with experience that narrative with the images can make a huge difference. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:41.440 It could just be a simple caption that could be thought-provoking, uh, or it could be, you know, a few lines, or it could be a page of text in a book next to an image. 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.880 So I I've learned that text really helped really helps. 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.840 I don't find it easy writing, I'll be honest with you. 00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:49.360 It's it's a hard work. 00:40:49.440 --> 00:41:04.079 I'm I'm in awe of journalists who can go in to a, you know, take my cafe, a journalist can go in there, interview three people, turn it around into a piece of copy for a newspaper or a radio broadcast, you know, within 10 minutes. 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:05.280 I can't do that. 00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.519 I just physically haven't got that skill set. 00:41:07.599 --> 00:41:18.239 You know, I'll I'll I'll sweat, you know, blood, you know, taking my my iPhone recording and trying to I it's it's just not it's not a natural skill for me, but I have to do it. 00:41:18.320 --> 00:41:42.719 But but I you know, I am a visual storyteller, but I I know that for many people, not not all, by the way, what where I learned this was when I did the Windrush story, which was a story about the Caribbean community in South London to celebrate the seventh anniversary, you know, I I I basically interviewed a number of these uh these uh first generation migrants, amazing stories when they came over in the kind of 50s and 60s. 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:47.039 And I included in the exhibition just some printouts, you know, of these stories. 00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:53.519 So if you wanted to sit down and read, you know, just just stapled transcripts, you could. 00:41:53.840 --> 00:42:03.280 And I was

completely gobsmacked by how many people sat down, wanted to find all 12, and might sit there for two or three hours reading them all. 00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:03.920 Amazing. 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.079 Not everyone, by the way, not at all everyone, but there was a good group wanted. 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:19.280 So when I re-published the second edition of the book, I put all the interviews in there because I realized that actually, for some people, they really want to get more than just see the images. 00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:31.440 And so I always advise people, you know, ask yourself, you know, how can text, you know, really help tell a story, but in a in a clever way rather than bore people with too much text? 00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:35.199 Because that's again, you know, a temptation you can overwhelm with text. 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:49.039 You know, the this whole notion of storytelling, and especially for those of us that work with series, with collections of images, is really, I think, very closely allied to uh text storytellers, fiction writers, essayists, the rest of it. 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:53.519 And we even use a lot of the same language composition, pacing, that kind of stuff. 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.239 Do you going back to just the images now? 00:42:56.480 --> 00:43:01.519 It do you have a style that you would say this is how you can recognize my work? 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:06.400 Um that's I wish the answer to that question was yes, because I always pose it. 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:18.400 Because I think it's probably, you know, ultimately, you know, you you should develop a way of you know creating imagery that's got some consistency. 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:25.679 And so when someone looks at it, they'll say, yeah, that that that's the sort of images I expect, you know, to see when I see Jim's work. 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.920 And what's interesting is this, so usually the answer to that question is yes. 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.639 You know, I'm shooting reportage, candid, fleeting moments. 00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:39.519 You know, I'm not worried about pin sharpness, I'm worried about does the image convey something? 00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.920 How does it crystallize some emotion? 00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:44.880 Does it say something profound and emotive? 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:49.920 That's that's guiding my selection of, you know, when I click the camera, if you like, click the button. 00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:51.760 And so that's my usual style. 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:55.760 As and and you would have seen that in some of the work that you've looked at on the website. 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.400 But also, you know, I like to try different things. 00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.760 So the other thing about photography. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.119 You can try things. 00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:19.360 So, you know, the the tales from, you know, COVID tales from Tom's Bench is more of a kind of portraiture, you know, project where I've tried to the bench is in the frame in the same way, so you get that consistency, and all that changes is the light, depending on how the day was. 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:22.400 You know, is the grass green because it rained yesterday or not? 00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:28.880 You know, are the flowers in the little the little vase behind the bench, are they alive or dead because they get replaced each week? 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:30.480 So that's a portrait project. 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:35.599 On this project for Maurice Dorfman, I've tried something new, which is I've I've done still life. 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:47.519 You know, I've basically composed little still life compositions that might have five photos, you know, on the backcloth of one of the fabrics that Maurice chose to sell in the shop. 00:44:47.599 --> 00:45:02.159 So if you like, Maurice is in the exhibition, he's almost curated it because all of the backcloths on which I've photographed these still lives are fabrics I've taken from his shop that he chose to sell to people here in Clapham. 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:03.599 Uh, but they're still lives. 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.920 Different style of photography completely. 00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:12.000 I I at one level, you know, I when I'm doing reportage, documentary work, candid. 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.440 Yeah, my style is very familiar and recognizable as Jim. 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.719 People often say, Oh, I've seen your work, Jim, because they now know what it looks like. 00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.199 But the nice thing about photography is you can try things. 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:28.559 To be digital, if you're not printing in a dark room, you can try things so easily and see if it works at almost no cost. 00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:30.000 The only cost is your time. 00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.480 And that's one of the magic of photography. 00:45:33.599 --> 00:45:41.599 Um, you know, Jim, looking at your work, going back to something you said at the very beginning, you know, you are a documentary photographer of your community. 00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:41.920 Yeah. 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:52.400 And whether it's the bench or whether it's the patrons of the cafe or whether it's Dorfman, you have a real empathy and a real love for the people that are your neighbors. 00:45:52.480 --> 00:46:00.239 Um, and so I do think there is uh a recognizable attitude, if not a recognizable uh look to the work. 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.239 Um one last question. 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.440 You are also a teacher, you teach for the Leica Academy. 00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:07.440 To tell me about your teaching world. 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:11.119 To tell me, you know, what you're getting from that and what you're hoping to give. 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:17.599 So um uh I teach uh I quite think Laica find me quite interesting, actually. 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:28.239 Um so I started when in the heart of COVID, like many of these academies, they

were trying to find material to share through Zoom, if you like. 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:44.000 And so I did a sort of uh a teaching about you know finding beauty in the ordinary, you know, kind of you know, very often little things, little objects, you know, can be made absolutely beautiful if you photograph them, you know, sensitively and thoughtfully. 00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:46.480 And the ordinary objects can be things of beauty. 00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:48.960 So I did one, I did that, that went very well. 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:52.960 Then I basically decided to I I also collect photography. 00:46:53.119 --> 00:47:13.119 I collect, you know, sort of uh particularly documentary photography from the sort of 60s, 70s, 80s, and I decided to do a course for the Like Academy about, you know, how you could learn uh from the masters of photography, you know, Kurtesh, Kudelka, you know, Chris Killipp, you know, the all the sort of genre of amazing doc photographers did that. 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:17.679 And but then I got into this whole uh documentary photography workshop, which is fantastic. 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:19.440 It's it's it's worked so well. 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:29.360 It's it's because basically what it does, um it first of all gives people a graph, it's basically anyone who wants to kind of try their hand at being a documentary photographer. 00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:36.079 And so I've I've accrued some a little bit of theory, you know, about what documentary photography is all about. 00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:43.119 But I've also accrued, you know, kind of 20 odd, you know, photo essays that I admire and we look at those and say, why do these work? 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:50.159 You know, why why is this photographer, you know, actually got this to work, whether it be the edit, the sequence. 00:47:50.320 --> 00:48:01.039 As part of it also, the participants also have to create their own photo essay as part of the five-week course, which gets them out shooting, you know, work and thinking about how to tell a story. 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:08.719 And then the the most, one of the most illuminating things about this thing about, you know, most of us need to work with an editor or creator. 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:17.039 So, so the brief they're given is okay, I want you to now, you're gonna you're gonna create an 18-image sequenced photo story. 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:18.639 You know, it can be of anything you want. 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:20.239 You decide what you want to tell a story about. 00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:21.599 Your choice can be anything. 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:27.920 We've had people talk about, you know, horse vet, you know, there's a place in south of France, you know, I location, a community. 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.519 We've had all sorts of stories being told. 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:30.639 It doesn't matter what it is. 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:46.800 But I also then say to them after, so and then we look at all of us look together

at uh, you know, the the course is usually four to eight participants, so we'll see either four or eight different very different photo essays each has created, and we'll all you know share our thoughts and say why we love them or what they could do to make them even better. 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:53.760 Then I say to them, okay, I want you to take your 18 images, and I want you to give me your also 18 rejects. 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:55.199 They didn't quite make the cut. 00:48:55.280 --> 00:49:14.880 Okay, so you're gonna give me 36 images, and I'm now gonna give those 36 images to one of your colleagues on the same workshop, and their job is to edit from that 36 and sequence, if you like, what they would use to tell the story you want to tell. 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:39.599 And I've now done this with uh three courses, uh, and in every case, every course, every every individual, the person who is the, if you like, the editor ends up creating a better edit in terms of images used and sequence than the photographer he or she had created for themselves. 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:41.679 And it's a fantastic example. 00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:47.440 They all they all the they all get this big aha moment, okay, I need to have someone to work with me. 00:49:47.679 --> 00:50:00.320 Because we've just demonstrated in spades that you will always get a better result if you work with someone else who can be objective, who can be a kind of positive critic of your work. 00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.760 And it they just the they all say, okay, I get it. 00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:09.119 This because I say to them, um, if you're a documentary photographer, there are two skills you require. 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:15.440 One is, of course, to take images, create images that together, you know, work and can tell a story. 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:30.480 But the second skill is to edit typically from a huge number of images down to a final tight edit and sequence it in a way that holds the attention of the viewer from the very beginning to the very end. 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:38.719 Whether it's a book, an exhibition, an online slide, it doesn't matter what it is, you've got to hold the attention of that viewer all the way to the end. 00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:39.519 And that's never easy. 00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:45.360 And when you do that for somebody else, of course, you're also forwarding your own skills to do that about your own work. 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:48.159 So you get better and better as you help others as well. 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:48.800 Absolutely. 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.360 Jim, we are running out of time here. 00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:52.800 This has been fantastic. 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:58.480 I am and I gotta tell everybody the life of Maurice Dorfman, you gotta go see this book. 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.119 Um, if you're in London, go see the exhibition. 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:08.079 It is, like I said, it's much more than a photo book, it is a biography with images of all sorts. 00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:10.320 And go look at the rest of Jim's work. 00:51:10.639 --> 00:51:13.840 This is social documentary at the very highest level. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:15.119 Jim, thank you very much. 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:16.000 Thank you very much. 00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:16.880 It's been a real pleasure. 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:18.239 I've really enjoyed the conversation. 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:20.239 Uh, and thanks for having me on the show. 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:21.679 Frames. 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:26.159 Because excellent photography belongs on paper. 00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:30.800 Visit us at www.readframes.com.