התמלול המלא של Paul Grogan

first asked me to come on this show 37 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:55.319 six years ago, I think something like that. Yeah, yeah, 38 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:57.719 And I went, oh, I'm going to really struggle with, 39 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:01.040 you know, choosing what games to pick and everything else. 40 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:03.480 It wasn't actually that difficult. I think I was just 41 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.319 in the right place. 42 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:09.080 And so I always ask people to send me a 43 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.199 bio beforehand, and most people send me four lines, and 44 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:13.919 I have to try and I have to try and 45 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:18.800 coax a show out of that. Your bio is absolutely fantastic. 46 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:19.240 Thank you. 47 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:25.000 So tell us what criteria you chose for picking the games. 48 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:29.159 It would have been so easy for me to say, right, 49 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:30.960 I'm going to pick games which I can play so 50 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.360 low and have got lots of replayability. That would be 51 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.960 the easy option. And you would have probably got the 52 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:38.599 same games for me as you would have got from 53 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:41.800 everybody else. You would have had your Spirit Islands, you 54 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.560 would have had your you know, your Gloom Havens and 55 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.000 things like that games with if I was really stuck 56 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:52.520 in a cabin the rest of the world had gone, 57 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:54.639 what games am I going to be able to keep 58 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:57.840 playing forever and keep me happy? And I decided I 59 00:02:57.879 --> 00:02:59.439 didn't want to do that, and I spoke to you 60 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.520 about it, just just to confirm that this is okay. 61 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.479 This isn't just which games am I going to be 62 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:07.319 happy playing for the rest of my life on my own? 63 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:10.639 But with the world has ended and I'm on my own, 64 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:13.120 which games do I want with me that have some 65 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:17.360 kind of meaning to me, some kind of importance in 66 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:21.120 my life for various reasons. And as soon as I 67 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.400 decided I was going to do that, I thought, ah, 68 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:25.719 this show is going to be a bit more and 69 00:03:25.719 --> 00:03:28.000 you wanted something a bit more personal rather than just 70 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.439 let's talk about some games. And at that point I 71 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:33.080 scrolled down the list and I'm like, oh, there's that 72 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:34.840 one because of this, and there's that one because of this, 73 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.680 And literally, we

could do a twenty five games for 74 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.360 Doomsday and a four hour podcast and I could pick 75 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.800 twenty five games that I've got a story about as 76 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.400 to why it's important for me. Filtering that down to 77 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:49.319 the top five was the tricky bit, And. 78 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:53.759 So if people watch your channel, they might get the 79 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:58.360 feeling that you're a very rational, very straight guy, and 80 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:03.960 yet speaking to you, it's interesting how kind of emotionally 81 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:10.159 connected you are, Like are these games? Do these games 82 00:04:10.639 --> 00:04:12.240 create feelings for you? 83 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:15.400 They will create feelings to the point where you're going 84 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:17.480 to have to edit out parts of this podcast because 85 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:19.800 I'm going to get I'm going to choke up. I mean, 86 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:22.600 I can guarantee that that's going to happen. And it's 87 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:24.160 interesting what you say because there's been a lot of 88 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:28.079 talk recently about people who have YouTube channels with fake 89 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:32.920 online personas, and I'm not one of those people. I'm 90 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:36.560 a Withzywig to quote an IT term from the nineties. 91 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.439 What you see is what you get, and you're absolutely right. 92 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:41.519 If you're watching one of my how to play videos, 93 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.399 you see no emotion because I'm reading from a script 94 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.040 on something that's taken me fifty hours to create, and 95 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:50.959 it's literally I mean, I try to smile a little bit, 96 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.680 but you know, it's a how to play video. It's 97 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:57.040 a professionally created tutorial video. And even in my playthroughs, 98 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:01.759 that online persona of his, he's happy. He's going to 99 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:03.319 teach you how to play. Again. That's what I do. 100 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:07.839 It's only in my videologues or live Q and as 101 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:13.800 where the mask slips now and again, and I will occasionally, 102 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:16.959 you know, drift into something which which might upset me 103 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:20.720 or just cause me to feel something which will affect 104 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:22.800 me online. And I don't edit those out. You know 105 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:25.000 that they stay in. There was one live Q and 106 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:27.879 A that I did, and this is going back quite 107 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.560 a few years, and I think it was during Lockdown. 108 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:35.240 During Lockdown, I ran a virtual online convention and basically 109 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:36.920 what I did is I got all of these publishers 110 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.759 around the world to donate games and we did an 111 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:43.519 online global charity raffle, and we raised twelve and a 112 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.160 half thousand pounds for the Chrysalis Youth Empoundment Network and 113 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:51.279 they built a bloody school with that money. And I 114 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:55.040 did that and I did that because I wanted to 115 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:56.720 do it and it seemed like a good thing and 116 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:58.519 it was great and it all went well. And then 117 00:05:58.519 --> 00:06:00.879 somebody started talking about it in the Q and and 118 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:02.360 a live Q and A about how it made me 119 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:04.360 feel and how much money did we raise and this 120 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.680 that and the other, and I just I was it. 121 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.600 I And this is still on YouTube somewhere. I don't 122 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.199 know what it was. But I'm sat here crying my 123 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:14.839 eyes out. I turned the camera off, but we left 124 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.920 the stream running because I'm like, and Vickie's there sound 125 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:20.680 next to me, you know, wondering what to do. And 126 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.240 there was about a minute and a half where I 127 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:25.240 just had to, you know, compose myself and then come back. 128 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:29.399 But yeah, I get very emotional when I talk about 129 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:32.680 anything important in life, which is which is everything? 130 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:37.240 Yeah, And I mean I'm fortunate in that all of 131 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.199 my emotions have died and the one remaining one is anger. 132 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:44.120 But you know, I mean anger is good too, So 133 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:45.920 so let's go back to the beginning. Then, So you 134 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:50.160 live in Devon. People associate you with Devon your game 135 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:56.480 convention as the word Devon in it, but the accent, 136 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.959 you don't sound like a farmer, I'm not. So you 137 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.600 grew up in the north of England. So where did you? 138 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:06.560 Where did you grow up? And is it grim up North? 139 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:11.360 So I lived. I was born in Blackpool, a place 140 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.399 with the tower, and I actually lived for twenty seven 141 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.519 years of my life in a town called Thornton Cleveley's. 142 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.519 It's about five miles away from Blackpool. Nobody's heard of 143 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.120 Thornton Cleveley's, so I just say Blackpool. 144 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.959

It might be the most English sounding name of a 145 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:28.240 place ever. 146 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:32.199 So yeah, But so born grew up there and everything else. 147 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.480 Finally left home at the age of twenty seven. I 148 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:37.920 was a bit of a late bloomer and then and 149 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.399 then got a career in I was already in it 150 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.160 at the time, but I left permanent employment, became a 151 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:48.079 contractor and then basically dabbled around with it contracting for 152 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:51.800 many years and moved away. So it's interesting because the 153 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:55.160 last time I went up to Blackpool, I could hardly 154 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.959 understand what people were saying, and yet down here everybody says, oh, 155 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.279 you've got a northern accent. So what's been actually a 156 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.120 massive advantage to me is that I still have a 157 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.639 Northern accent, but the harshness of that accent, the strong 158 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.680 parts of it, have gone, and I've kind of ended 159 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:16.680 up with this relatively neutral ish accent. So I get 160 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.800 a lot of comments on my videos from people around 161 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:23.360 the world in like, you know, Brazil or wherever. To say, Paul, 162 00:08:23.720 --> 00:08:26.480 I watch your channel because I can absolutely understand what 163 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:28.639 you're saying, because it just sounds like you've got a 164 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.839 you know, a neutral accent kind of thing. And I said, ah, 165 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:32.559 that's handy then. 166 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:37.600 And so you studied astrophysics, so firstly, what drew you 167 00:08:37.679 --> 00:08:40.600 to that? And then secondly, why didn't you finish a degree? 168 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.039 So when I was growing up, I was always into 169 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.120 fantasy sci fi. I always loved anything to do with 170 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:49.600 space and everything else. You know, used to watch Patrick 171 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:53.240 Moore on the TV Stars at Night, Sky at Night, 172 00:08:53.279 --> 00:08:55.320 Sky Sky at Night. Yeah, so anything to do with. 173 00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.440 Something the American listeners are gobbling that up by the 174 00:08:58.879 --> 00:08:59.919 Patrick Moore chat. 175 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:04.639 The Yeah, always always interested in that as a kid. 176 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:07.080 And then when I was at school, I was very 177 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.720 much a science person. So your maths, your physics, your chemistries, 178 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:13.840 et cetera, et cetera. And I did my A levels 179 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.759 and I did really well at physics A level because 180 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.840 it just seemed really easy. I really struggled at some subjects, 181 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:25.200 you know, any any that history, English, just barely scraped 182 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:28.200 through English to get my O level. But when it 183 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:31.279 came to the sciences, especially physics, a lot of it 184 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:34.559 just made sense. So because my career plan, and I 185 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:36.559 did have a career plan when I was at college, 186 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.879 which was to go to university, get a physics degree, 187 00:09:40.679 --> 00:09:43.039 get a PGCE, and become a physics teacher. That was 188 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:45.559 that was my life plan, to become a physics teacher. 189 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.519 So just for the Americans, the PGCE is what. 190 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:51.600 It's a one year course that you do after a 191 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:54.919 degree that means you can then become a teacher. I 192 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:56.519 don't know what he stands for post. 193 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.840 No post graduate qualification of education. It doesn't exist anymore. 194 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:06.200 Probably no, so that oh levels don't exist anymore either either. 195 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:07.480 Poor I hate to break it to you. 196 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.600 Then life kind of turned upside down. There was there 197 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:17.080 was a few mitigating circumstances. And when I was starting, 198 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:18.840 I think I was about a month or two months 199 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.080 into my second year at university and life took a 200 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.200 bit of a turn and I had to drop out. 201 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.480 And I thought, right, I'm going to take a year out, 202 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:28.480 I'm going to recompose myself and then I'm going to 203 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.399 go back. But I'm going to need a job to 204 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.039 keep me going. Even though I was living at home 205 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:35.759 with my parents, I felt, well, you know, I can't 206 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.039 like take nine months off do nothing, so I'll get 207 00:10:38.039 --> 00:10:40.600 a job. So I got this job working for the 208 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:46.519 Civil Service in a computer department, working shifts supporting. I mean, 209 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.799 this was nineteen eighty nine, so it was big ICL 210 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.399 mainframe computers, loading huge real tapes onto things to run 211 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:59.159 back ups, you know, unloading massive paper off printers. These 212 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.360 were the printers that were printing the gyro checks that 213 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:04.879 were going out to old people for their heating benefits 214 00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:07.200 and stuff like that.

Anyway, that was it. So I 215 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.559 got this job in it and then life turned again 216 00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:12.799 and I went, I'll tell you what, I think I 217 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:14.639 might just stay here and not go back to university. 218 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.519 And that was it. So never been back, never never 219 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.960 got any formal qualifications beyond beyond my A levels. 220 00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:26.039 Do you ever regret not going back to university? 221 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:30.000 No, not at all. The thing is with universities is that, 222 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.039 especially now, you've got to go to university to get 223 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.039 a degree in if you want to apply for a job, 224 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.600 because if you're an employer and you've got twenty people 225 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:39.120 applying for the job and ten of them have a 226 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:42.080 degree and ten of them don't, you're kind of going 227 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:44.480 to shortlist out the ten that have got a degree. 228 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:46.440 So I think having a degree or that kind of 229 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.000 qualification in the UK is essential to then moving on 230 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:52.639 because it proves that you've got, you know, the commitment 231 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:56.399 or whatever. Thankfully I never needed that. I managed to 232 00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:00.600 survive a twenty five year career in it because of 233 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.600 what I did and what I had done in the past, 234 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.120 rather than the qualifications. 235 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.000 And So when did games into your life then, and 236 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.039 what were the ones that really pulled you in? 237 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.639 When I was a kid, I mean it goes back, 238 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:18.080 so I was an only child, So I think I 239 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:20.240 had a lot of time just thinking back to when 240 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.000 I was like, you know, six, seven or eight years 241 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:25.240 old at home on my own or whatever, and I 242 00:12:25.399 --> 00:12:28.399 have these memories. Although parts of my life in my 243 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.559 memories have gone, I have certain memories from when I 244 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:33.759 was really young and I was sat there on my 245 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.360 own playing spy Ring. If you don't know it, look 246 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:40.159 it up nineteen seventy seven. I loved spies as a kid, 247 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:42.399 grew up loving James Bond and everything else, so playing 248 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:45.279 this game called spy Ring on my own. Also playing 249 00:12:45.320 --> 00:12:49.919 games like Monopoly or Pludo or Frustration, the one where 250 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:51.480 you push the thing in the middle and you have 251 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:53.919 to roll a six to Yeah, great, make game mechanism, 252 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.360 that is. But I always loved games even when I 253 00:12:57.399 --> 00:12:59.919 was a kid, and it wasn't just the fact that 254 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.600 I was a kid and I played games. I really 255 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:07.120 enjoyed the process of playing games. So it always was 256 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.799 something which was there from an early age. But the 257 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:12.720 biggest thing which started me on the journey to where 258 00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:16.480 I am now is when I was in a bookshop 259 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:19.120 in Cleveland's And the bookshop is no longer there, but 260 00:13:19.159 --> 00:13:21.000 I was in this bookshop in Cleveland's I think nineteen 261 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.279 eighty two or nineteen eighty three, and again I grew 262 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:25.840 up loving fantasy, loving sci fi, and I saw this 263 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:26.960 book and it was called the Wall of c of 264 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.679 Foutop Mountain, and I was like, ooh, what's this. Oh 265 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:34.679 I get to play, I get to make decisions and 266 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.960 everything else. That then led on to basic Dungeons and Dragons, 267 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:43.200 which led on to joining D and D groups when 268 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:45.279 I was a teenager, led onto playing lots and lots 269 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:47.679 of D and D. That led on to other games 270 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:49.840 that led on to playing games in the late eighties, 271 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.399 such as Acts as An Allies, eighteen thirty Civilization, you know, 272 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.279 the old Avalon Hill style games that then led on 273 00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.080 I mean, you know, I've played Dungeons and Dragons for 274 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.840 twenty five years. That onto Magic Gathering, that led onto 275 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.600 other gaming groups that led onto all sorts of other 276 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.080 things war gaming. I was basically doing everything. I was 277 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:11.919 one of those kids where, you know, instead of going 278 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:14.240 out and getting a girlfriend and smoking and drinking, I'd 279 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.320 be playing D and D with my friends. And yeah, 280 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.080 definitely one of those nerdy, geeky types. 281 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:25.320 So your first game then is a very Unpaul Grogan game. 282 00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:29.919 So you in your bio, you said, I hate randomness, 283 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.600 this is what drew me to eurogames, and yet your 284 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:38.639 first game is Talisman. For someone who hates randomness. How 285 00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:40.919 could you justify choosing Talisman. 286

00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:42.919 Well, the funny thing is, if I had to come 287 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.240 on this show when you first invited me, Talisman would 288 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:48.399 not be on my list, because going back to the 289 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.200 fourteen fifteen year old me, Saturday afternoon, I've got five 290 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:55.279 friends round and we sit there and we play Talisman 291 00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:57.360 all afternoon. That's what we do. I mean, the games 292 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.799 that we had in the mid eighties were not as 293 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:02.519 good as the games that we have now, so we 294 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:05.360 add a lot more limited choice. And of course I 295 00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.399 was younger, so you know the fact that, ah, you 296 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.000 know Duncans roll one and he's been turned into a 297 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.320 toad for three turns. Yay, that's hilarious right now. If 298 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:15.840 that happens in a game, me and you would just 299 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.240 flip the table and walk away and say, I'm going 300 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.159 to rethink my life. What is this hobby? But at 301 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:26.600 the time, things like that were funny, and Saturday afternoons 302 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:28.279 would be either D and D or we'd be playing 303 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.600 Talisman and this and the other. So played a lot 304 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:35.279 of Talisman with our kid. However, my memories of Talisman 305 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.080 are this is just totally and utterly random. This is 306 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.440 complete and utter random nonsense is you're just rolling a dice, 307 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.480 moving around aboard, drawing a random card, rolling random dice, 308 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:49.440 and random stuff happens. And then No Mad Games, who 309 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:54.360 are a UK software developer. They do the digital version 310 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.759 of Talisman, and they released the digital version of Talisman 311 00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:02.039 fifth Edition. Now I subscribe to them because I've covered 312 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.799 one of their other games on the channel previously, or 313 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:06.519 at least i've got it, I can't remember. But I 314 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:08.440 got this news letter from them and it said Talisman 315 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:13.480 fifth Edition Digital and something in my mind went fifth edition, right, 316 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.080 what's new with this one? Is this just another reskin, 317 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:21.039 another you know, artwork overhaul or whatever. And for some reason, 318 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.399 I had like thirty seconds free and I went, I'm 319 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:25.480 going to have a look at what is fifth edition? 320 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:27.720 So I looked at it and they went, oh, we 321 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.679 tweaked some of the rules and this, that and the other, 322 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:32.279 and No Mad Games basically said I'm on their list 323 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.320 of reviewers and they said we'll give you a digital key. 324 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.960 So one day, this is about, I don't know, eighteen 325 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.080 months ago. Now, I thought I'm going to do this 326 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.080 as a joke, and I spoke to No Mad Games 327 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.080 and I said, look, I'll tell you now, I hate Talisman. 328 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.039 I absolutely hate the game. I think it's awful. But 329 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:52.240 as a joke, and it wasn't April first, but I 330 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.080 was going to do it anyway as a joke. I'm 331 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.840 going to do a video is me playing Talisman because 332 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:59.039 I have spent the last ten years telling everybody how 333 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:02.519 much I hate Talisman. That everybody's going to be really 334 00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:05.240 confused as to why I'm doing it. And they said, 335 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.039 that's absolutely fine, as long as you don't criticize our 336 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.480 online implementation of it. You know, if you're able to 337 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.359 separate the two. You hate the game, but the online 338 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:15.880 implementation was quite good. I said, yeah, that's absolutely fine. 339 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:18.720 So I did this, and this is on the channel. 340 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:21.279 This is me playing Talisman Digital. And I got to 341 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.720 the end of it and I went, I actually enjoyed that. 342 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:28.480 And I don't quite know, well I do quite know why, 343 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.279 but it seemed a big jump for me spending so 344 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.599 many years saying how much I hate the game to 345 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:40.039 actually I enjoyed this. Now I say enjoyed it. It 346 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.759 is still roller dice, move around the board, draw a card, 347 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:44.119 it is still that. 348 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:45.680 It's still shites, right. 349 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.119 Well, No, the tweaks in fifth edition. I would never 350 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.839 play fourth edition. So it's not like I've changed my 351 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.680 mind on Talisman. I've changed my mind on Talisman because 352 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.960 of some small tweaks in fifth edition, which actually for me, yeah, 353 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.400 I would never play without those. And what was also 354 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.599 interesting is not only did I enjoy it, I then 355 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.680 played it three or four more times, and I enjoyed

356 00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.519 it every single time I played it. And I went 357 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.640 into the game going lett, I know this is roll 358 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:17.319 dice for movement, and I know this is moving around 359 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.519 the boarder and I know it's drawing random cards. But 360 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:21.680 was one of the streams that I did once and 361 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:24.640 it was actually watched by another YouTube channel called the 362 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:27.440 Talisman Tavern, and all they do is Talisman, right, That's 363 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:29.759 all they cover on their channel. They watched one of 364 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.000 my videos and they did their own live stream of 365 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.599 them watching my video and talking about what I was doing, 366 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.279 and they were actively criticizing the decisions that I made 367 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:44.200 in the game. Now I know these guys, I'm friends 368 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.000 with them, and I watched that video and they were 369 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:51.119 doing it, you know, in a funny way. But I went, 370 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.559 you're absolutely right, And what I realized, I'm not trying 371 00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:56.839 to convince you that Talisman is the most strategic game ever, 372 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:00.799 but because they know the game really well, Like, yeah, Paul, 373 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:02.759 you know on that term where you decided to do that, Well, 374 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.400 if you'd done this instead, that would have meant that. 375 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.480 And suddenly I was like, oh, there is a little 376 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.799 bit more to this game than I actually gave it 377 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:11.319 credit for. 378 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:14.960 But basically, you want to make the correct decision in Talisman, 379 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:17.759 so the game ends quicker, right, That's what I found 380 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:18.960 when I played talis book. 381 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:21.119 Because you're trying to win. 382 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.359 Well, no, because you're trying to get to the end 383 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.279 of this bloody roll and move nightmare that takes five hours. 384 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:28.799 Well he doesn't now, So fifth edition, as well as 385 00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:33.240 tweaking some of the rules, they've also made some under 386 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.720 the bonnet changes with the composition of the cards in 387 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:38.400 the deck that games don't take five hours anymore. They 388 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:40.720 now take hour and a half two hours. 389 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.680 Well, that's at least reasonably acceptable for doing something that's pointless. 390 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:47.160 So I want to move on now and talk about 391 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.720 your role as a rule book editor. So, firstly, how 392 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.160 does one become a rule book writer? 393 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.200 I have been asked this question so many times from 394 00:19:57.279 --> 00:19:59.720 jealous people who go, Paul, I love what you do, 395 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:04.000 and how do I get into this? It was purely accidental, really, 396 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.880 I mean I fell in love with Check Games Edition 397 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.960 before they were even Check Games Edition, when they were 398 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.279 a different company and they had their first game, and 399 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:19.039 then I got in contact with them and I basically said, look, 400 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.480 I love you, I'm a passionate board gamer. Is there 401 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.559 anything that I can do to help you with your games? 402 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:29.880 And they basically invited me to say, well, look, we 403 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.400 do rule books, and if you wanted to have a 404 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.599 look at these rule books and maybe give some comments 405 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.079 on them. And the first rule book that they ever 406 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.920 shared with me, like the week before it went to 407 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.960 print was Dungeon Louts. And I read through the whole 408 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.680 thing and I spotted one small error in the rule book, 409 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.640 which was one of the flavor texts. You know, Jason 410 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:56.119 and Vlajer normally put lots of humorous bits in their 411 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.640 rule book, and there was one bit where it says 412 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.960 is as hard as cheese or as hard as a 413 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.960 Swiss cheese. That was it, And I said, the phrase 414 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.359 is actually as hard as Swiss cheese, there's no a. 415 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.680 So they removed the a that's it. That's my first 416 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.759 ever rule book edit that I made is removing the 417 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:20.000 letter A from a bit of fluff text in Dungeon Loods. 418 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:23.599 But what that led to is me working with CGE 419 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.920 for many years being involved in their rule book writing 420 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.400 and editing process, and they have such a really good, 421 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:36.200 strict process of version control, collaborative working, lots of people 422 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:39.880 adding comments, the graphic designer implementing those comments, doing a 423 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.400 new version, everybody checking the new version. Oh, the graphic 424 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.519 design has accidentally moved in a major bit to the left. 425 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.799 We leave another

comment, and this iterative process of working 426 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:51.759 on rule books, and I was like, I quite like this. This, 427 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:54.960 this is good fun, and I'm helping to contribute to 428 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.359 these rule books being really good for games from public 429 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.079 from a publisher that I really like. But that led 430 00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:05.000 to me doing similar things for other publishers, which then 431 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:09.160 led to me actually starting to edit parts myself, not 432 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.039 just pointing out little typos, but actually doing some rewriting 433 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:15.400 and editing, which then led on to more writing rather 434 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.720 than editing. And it turns out that I'm good at it, 435 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.799 and I accidentally found and uncovered a skill within myself 436 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:28.079 that I didn't know I had for technical writing, and 437 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.880 it's it's something that a lot of people say, Oh, well, 438 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:32.599 you came from an IT background, so it was probably 439 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:37.200 from that. No, it wasn't from that. It was because 440 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:42.240 I am such And I can't use the word because 441 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:43.720 your podcast will get banned. 442 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:46.799 But oh no, please swear we're all adults. Aple. 443 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:53.720 I am an absolute, anally retentive grammar you know, yatzymes 444 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:57.960 to these things, and I don't settle until something's perfect. 445 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:01.160 We prefer the term grammar Authorougharan bo Ego. 446 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:04.480 Yeah, I'm absolutely that person. You know. I'm the type 447 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.160 of person who if I'm sat in a room where 448 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.039 there's twenty five people playing games and I'm playing my 449 00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.119 own game, but I hear you on the next table 450 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.079 telling somebody a rule wrong, I will hear that and 451 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:21.920 I will get up from my chair and I will 452 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.039 go over and I say, skates, babe, ben. But I 453 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:27.839 think you'll find that I am that person. Now, that 454 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:29.839 person is an absolute dick and we know them and 455 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.799 we hate them. That's me and I can't stop that. 456 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:35.960 I can't turn it off. If I see something that 457 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:40.160 needs fixing or could be made better, I go at it. 458 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:41.759 Like a dog in a bone, like a dog with 459 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.759 a bone, until until it is fixed. So it isn't 460 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.359 the fact that you know, I'm a language professor, or 461 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:51.279 I know how to use a semi colon or anything 462 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:55.519 like that. It's just that I've got this driven desire 463 00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:59.640 to make things better continually, and because I've got so 464 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:02.599 much experience of playing games, I know when I read 465 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:05.359 a rule if it's unclear, I know, I know when 466 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:09.720 things are ambiguous. I know how to write something so 467 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:11.920 that it is clear to people reading it. 468 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:16.440 And so there came a point, I guess around twenty 469 00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:21.319 fifteen twenty sixteen where basically you were the go to 470 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.279 person for rule books in the industry. You became that 471 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:29.559 sort of you became sort of synonymous with that aspect 472 00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:32.920 of the industry. And to the point we were talking 473 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:35.920 before we hit record that you did a podcast, you know, 474 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.960 last week where you were talking about when you were 475 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:42.480 talking about rule books, So you're still the go to 476 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:44.039 person for rule books? Is that weird? 477 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.640 It is weird because you know, it's not something that 478 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.200 I ever planned, And I've done seminars on rule books 479 00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.920 and how to write good rule books, and I have 480 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.160 actually done private sessions for publishers where I've met with 481 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.559 their development team and their editorial team, teaching them good 482 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.680 practices on how to write good rule books. And it's 483 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:09.759 weird because it happened almost accidentally, and like I said, 484 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:13.240 it uncovered this skill that I had that I didn't 485 00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:15.680 know I had, that I didn't choose to go into. 486 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:20.240 But I'm happy about it because I remember when I 487 00:25:20.279 --> 00:25:22.240 was doing the first seminar, and I think it might 488 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:23.920 have been at UK Games Expo, and they asked me 489 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:25.839 to get up and do a seminar on rule books. 490 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:28.400 And I was talking to Vicky, my wife, and I 491 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:31.079 was talking to my supporters, and I'm like, I'm really 492 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.400 nervous about this. I've never really stood on a stage 493 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.599 and done a presentation before. That's the kind of thing 494 00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.599 other people do. I don't have the faintest idea where 495 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.160 to start. And they all said

to me, Paul, you 496 00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:45.079 are generally regarded as one of the world's best rule 497 00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:48.119 book writers and editors. If you can't stand up and 498 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:51.960 give a talk on it, nobody can. Just They said, 499 00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.599 if can you talk for an hour about rule books? 500 00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.720 And I went yeah, And they won't just do that then, 501 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.480 and I was like, all right, okay, and I did it. 502 00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:03.119 And what was really it made me quite proud, actually 503 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:05.880 is I got on that stage and I talked, and 504 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.920 I sounded like somebody who knew exactly what they were 505 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.759 talking about. And that's because I did know exactly what 506 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:14.319 I was talking about, and I felt so comfortable about 507 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.039 it that it went a lot smoother than I thought. 508 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.519 Yeah, I mean, I talk out of my ass almost exclusively. 509 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:23.440 But if I ever get on a subject that I 510 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:29.200 genuinely know something about, it is very easy to talk about. 511 00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:33.039 So tell us, then, what is the key to a 512 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:34.000 good rule book? 513 00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:39.240 There's so many aspects to a good rule book. Ultimately, 514 00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:42.680 a good rule book is one where the people who 515 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:44.680 buy the game can sit down, read through the rule book, 516 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:46.400 learn how to play the game, and then play the 517 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.160 game without any questions. So it's not just. 518 00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:55.400 That's a platonic ideal though, right, yeah it is. It 519 00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:56.960 doesn't exist, No, it does. 520 00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.720 There are a few rule books out there where it 521 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.079 does actually exist, so it Yeah, the purpose of a 522 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:04.799 rule book is to teach people how to play games. 523 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.839 But if I go back to, you know, the Avalon 524 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:10.240 Hill games from the late seventies and early eighties. I 525 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.079 was able to get those rule books, learn the game 526 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:14.759 from those rule books, and then play the game, and 527 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:16.839 I generally didn't have any questions. But were they good 528 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:20.200 rule books? No, because they were walls of text with 529 00:27:20.440 --> 00:27:23.920 no images, no examples and know nothing and the structure 530 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:27.039 was all wrong. But ultimately I was able to play 531 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.720 the game from that rule book without consulting, without phoning 532 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:31.759 the you know, the one eight hundred number to get 533 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.920 rules help or whatever it was back in the back 534 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:36.680 in the day. So these days it's a lot more 535 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:41.559 about structure, the process of how you teach somebody how 536 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.079 to play a game through the physical medium of a 537 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:47.559 rule book, and the order in which you present that information. 538 00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.480 So to give you a simple idea, bad rule books 539 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:53.480 these days have a lot of front loading of information 540 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:55.039 and I hate it and it's one of the worst 541 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:58.079 things ever, and publishers keep doing it, and I don't 542 00:27:58.119 --> 00:27:58.640 know why. 543 00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.160 Is this the one where where you open the rule 544 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:03.359 book and they tell you every aspect of the card, 545 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:05.240 or they tell you all the concepts of the game, 546 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:07.400 and they don't actually get into how you play the 547 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:09.519 game until page ten exactly. 548 00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:14.279 That drives me nuts. Yeah, it's ridiculous. How many publishers 549 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:16.440 still do it. So you open the rule book. You've 550 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:19.759 got your overview, fine, you've got a contents list. That's fine. 551 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:24.000 And then here's two pages of card anatomy. So here's 552 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:26.200 all of the cards, here's what all of the icons are. 553 00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.079 None of that makes any sense to me. Right now, 554 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.359 here's some really important concepts that we need to get 555 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:34.200 across to you. Four pages of that and you're like, no, 556 00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.640 just tell me the game lasts for ten rounds, each 557 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.359 round to divide into five phases. Right, You bring that 558 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.640 information into people at the point it's needed. So there, 559 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:47.559 that's a problem with rule books at the moment. The 560 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:54.000 other problem with rule books is not having FAQ in 561 00:28:54.039 --> 00:28:56.680 the rule books. And this this frustrates me a little 562 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:00.119 bit because when you start actually playing the game and 563 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:01.880 you think, okay, we've read the rules, we think we 564 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.599 know how to play, right, let let's make a start. Okay, 565 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:08.279 turn one, I've got this card that says, whenever I'm 566 00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.960 doing such and such in action, I get this right. Well, 567 00:29:11.160 -->

00:29:14.200 how does that work with this that you can guarantee 568 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.640 that that question cropped up in the first ever playtest, 569 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.079 and yet the answer to that question is not clarified 570 00:29:20.119 --> 00:29:22.799 in the rule book. So it's not just about teaching 571 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:25.599 people how to play the game, it's about helping them 572 00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.000 to actually be able to play the game. So all 573 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.400 of your questions about the game that cropped up in 574 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:34.680 your playtests, the answers to those are the questions people 575 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.079 are going to have in their first game, and therefore 576 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:38.240 they need to be in the rule book. 577 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.359 So your next game, then, is a hell of a game. 578 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.319 I'm writing a book at the moment, and there is 579 00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:47.640 a chapter devoted to this particular title, and this is 580 00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:52.720 Through the Ages. So how did this game change your life? 581 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:55.839 I mean I picked this game because you told me to. 582 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.559 I mean, basically, I'd say that to every every guest 583 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.200 on the show, but you're one of the few people 584 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:05.799 it was stupid enough to listen to my instructions. 585 00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:07.839 Yeah, I think we both have the same opinion on 586 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:11.279 Through the Ages, which which is always always good to hear. 587 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:14.680 So Through the Ages the original game, which was called 588 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:17.880 Through the Ages a Story of Civilization, was a game 589 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.480 published in two thousand and six by a company called 590 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:28.480 check Board Games CBG, so not CG but CBG, and 591 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:32.039 it was this small check publisher from this unknown design 592 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:35.440 of Large Battle, and they turned up at Essen, and 593 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:40.200 because I've loved civilization games like you know, forever, some 594 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.079 friends of mine set, oh, Paul, have you seen the 595 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:44.599 list on board game Geek of new games coming out? 596 00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.480 There's this civilization game coming out from a you know, 597 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.559 unknown check company. I thought, oh, right, I'll go and 598 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.200 check that out, and I did, and it was they 599 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:58.759 had a tiny, tiny booth opposite Tony Boydell and they 600 00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:01.680 had this game called Through the Ages for thirty euros, 601 00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:05.160 which I still have in the attic. It's the first 602 00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:10.119 edition Through the Ages in the attic. And it was 603 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:12.880 just three of them there at this booth and I 604 00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:15.000 got this game and I was like, oh, that's right, 605 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:17.599 civilization game. Great. Took it back to the hotel room, 606 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:19.920 played it, et cetera, et cetera, fell in love with 607 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:25.079 it straight away, And in fact, every year since nineteen 608 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.279 ninety nine, one month after Resen, I have hosted a 609 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:32.279 game's weekend where I invite all of my friends around 610 00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:33.720 and we play all of the new games that I 611 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.240 brought back from Mesen and I've been doing that since 612 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.079 nineteen ninety nine. That has now turned into Gridcon, which 613 00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:42.240 is my own convention, which is one month after Essen, 614 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.119 so I don't get to play all of the new 615 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.720 SSEN games anymore. But that year two thousand and six, 616 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.440 instead of I spent three days at home that weekend 617 00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:55.400 one month after Reson, and instead of playing all the 618 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.519 ESSEN games, I played through the Ages, and then I 619 00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.559 played through the Ages, and then I played through the Ages, 620 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:02.039 and then I played through the Ages, and I played 621 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.079 four games through the Ages, and I came last in 622 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:08.880 every single game. But that's how much that game just 623 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.240 absolutely ticked all of my boxes and it was fantastic. 624 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.599 And then the year after two thousand and seven, I 625 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:20.079 went back. CBG still existed as a company, but the 626 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:22.559 two people who were the main driving force behind the 627 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:26.160 company had a difference of direction of where they wanted 628 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.839 to go with the company, so CBG stayed the same, 629 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:34.799 and then CG was formed Check Games Edition and two 630 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.119 thousand and six, sorry, two thousand and seven, they had 631 00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.720 a booth as CGE and they were selling League of 632 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.160 Six Fantastic game, Galaxy Trucker Fantastic Game. And I met 633 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:45.720 Larger for the first time, and I went up to 634 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:51.079 Larger and I just absolutely fanboid, just like I was 635 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:55.880 almost on my knees just praying, going this game is amazing. 636 00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:59.480 I love you, And yeah, it was a

bit embarrassing 637 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.079 looking back, Large is really humble and he's really embarrassed 638 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:04.640 because he's like, who's this guy like licking my shoes? 639 00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.440 And I basically swapped to email addresses with people from 640 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:12.960 CGE and that's how the relationship started. It was simply 641 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.640 me swapping emails with the guy who did their graphic 642 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:20.319 design and exchanging emails with him, and over a couple 643 00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:23.680 of years period, just me offering to do more and 644 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:27.279 more for them as a publisher, which led to me 645 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.079 actually doing rulebook work, me doing game testing, me running 646 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:35.000 demos of CGE games at UK conventions for free. I 647 00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:37.039 wasn't being paid to do this. I was just I 648 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.079 was loving doing it. And then a few years later 649 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:44.720 I got invited to go to the Czech Republic in 650 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:47.799 March for a week of game testing and development with 651 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:54.880 them and Peter Kislava note Lava, Petermurmak and Vladisha Battle 652 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:58.279 wanted a meeting with me, so they sat me down 653 00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.319 and they basically said, Paul, over the last few years 654 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:04.920 you've been doing all of this. They said, how many 655 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:07.119 hours a week do you spend doing all of this 656 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.320 for us? And I was like, oh, I don't know, 657 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:13.320 on average, probably maybe ten to fifteen hours a week 658 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:16.559 doing all of this stuff. And they went, we can't 659 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:21.360 have you carrying on doing all of this stuff for 660 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:25.400 us for free. We need to pay you to do it. 661 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:28.679 And I'm like what, and they went yeah. So we 662 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:32.519 agreed an hourly rate and from then on, at the 663 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:34.440 end of each month, I would send them an invoice 664 00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.880 for the work that I'd done and they'd pay me. 665 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.320 And I was like, oh, well, that's cool. I'm getting paid, 666 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:41.880 you know, I'm getting paid to do the stuff that 667 00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:44.280 I want to do. But that's how it all started. 668 00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:47.960 That's how my career in the board game industry started. Again. 669 00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:52.039 It's not something that anybody can just do themselves. It 670 00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:55.400 was right place, right time, and building those relationships. But 671 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:59.199 I hadn't ever planned that. It was purely, you know, 672 00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:00.760 just actit dental as it were. 673 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:07.320 So reading your bio, I got incredibly jealous because I 674 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.400 realized not only of you, not only did you work 675 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.719 on the rule book for Through the Ages, but you 676 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:19.159 also had some input into the design decisions. What did 677 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:20.760 you design in Through the Ages? 678 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.760 So nothing in the original game, but in the new version, 679 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.840 the Through the Ages a new story of civilization. I'd 680 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.360 already been working with CG for many years at that point, 681 00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:34.840 so it made sense that I was involved in the 682 00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:37.800 playtesting and the development of it. And there were a 683 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:41.960 couple of areas where I had an imput so one 684 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:45.519 of the broken combos from the original version of the game, 685 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:48.440 I'll say broken combo, it wasn't as broken as some 686 00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:50.960 people say, but it was still very powerful, was the 687 00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:55.039 Michael Angelo sent Peter's Basilica combo, which was basically Michael 688 00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:58.559 Angelo gave lots of happy faces and Sent Peter's Basilica 689 00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.880 doubled the number of happy faces you got. And any 690 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:09.159 game effect on any game, ever where you start introducing multipliers, 691 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:13.440 it can get potentially out of control, and that's what 692 00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:18.280 happened with the original version of the game. So I 693 00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:22.960 proposed a new wording for Saint Peter's Basilica, which was, 694 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.079 instead of doubling the number of happy faces, just increases 695 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.880 the number of happy faces by one. So you've got 696 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.360 to have happy faces, but it just adds one and 697 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.000 Vligie went yeah, that's right. That fixes it done, and 698 00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:38.320 I'm like, all right, okay, is that it? And they 699 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.159 basically went, yeah, Now, they added it to their online 700 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.480 testing system and they tested it and it came out 701 00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.320 that it was good. It was still powerful, but it 702 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:50.239 wasn't completely unbalanced as the original one. So I'm happy 703 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.239 that the wording on the new version of Saint Peter's 704 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:56.360 Basilica was my suggestion. There was another discussion as well, 705 00:36:56.360 --> 00:37:00.400 and this was a really interesting

discussion which I've been 706 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:03.400 meaning to do some kind of podcast about this myself, 707 00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:10.880 is the psychology of the cost of certain cards in games. 708 00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.480 And I'm talking specifically about a card called Drama, which 709 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:17.960 is the first card that you get, the first Theater 710 00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:20.559 card that you get, and the Drama cards for those 711 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:24.119 people who don't know the game, the Drama cards gain 712 00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:27.320 new culture. Culture is victory points, and you need victory 713 00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.719 points to win. But as we all know from playing 714 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.639 euro games, you don't want victory point engines at the 715 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:35.760 start of a game. You need other engines. You need 716 00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.199 to be building up your resources, your food, you need 717 00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:40.199 to be building up all of the other stuff. So 718 00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:43.039 having cards at the start of the game whose whole 719 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.840 point in the game is to generate you victory points, 720 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:52.639 they have a perceived lower value because you don't need 721 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.559 them at the start, you need them near the end. 722 00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:58.079 So the Drama card nobody bought. Nobody ever bought the 723 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.320 card because they didn't want it, and it was costed 724 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.760 a little bit too high. And I had this really 725 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.440 long discussion with Larger and he went, look, Pool, here's 726 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.880 the stats, and he showed me all of these Google 727 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:11.519 sheets and stats and graphs and percentages and everything. He went, 728 00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.440 that card is perfectly costed for what it does. And 729 00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:19.599 I'm like, yes, but nobody's buying it because it's too expensive. 730 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:22.079 But he's not too expensive. And I'm like, look, I 731 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.440 know it's not too expensive from the maths and stats 732 00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:28.360 point of view. It's perfectly costed, but nobody's buying it. 733 00:38:29.079 --> 00:38:32.480 So he went, okay, well, let's reduce the cost of 734 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.559 it by one and they did, and it was now 735 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.159 on paper, it was a more powerful card than it 736 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.159 should have been, but it actually worked better because now 737 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:45.480 people did actually buy it, and when they bought it, 738 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:49.199 it was actually balanced. And yeah, I was quite quite 739 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:51.719 pleased with that discussion and how it went and it 740 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:57.440 was nice to have some really deep discussion with somebody 741 00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:59.719 like largish of adult who's an absolute genius when it 742 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.840 comes to board game design and I'm just, you know, 743 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.920 a nube. But I was able to have that discussion 744 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:06.840 with him on a fairly equal level. 745 00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:10.960 And so in what ways as through the ages demonstrate 746 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:14.880 Vlader's brilliant as a game designer. 747 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:17.400 I mean, it's such an old game now, I mean 748 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:22.840 twenty is now, but it's for that to have been 749 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:28.400 his first proper published game, you know, it's not like 750 00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:31.840 a designer who's spent years developing and getting better and 751 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:34.280 better and then comes up with their magnum opus after 752 00:39:34.519 --> 00:39:38.480 you know. It's there's just so many things about it 753 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:43.760 that I think have influenced future games. The common rule 754 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.239 that we all see in games now is when the 755 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:48.199 end of the game is triggered, you finish that round 756 00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:50.760 and then you play one more round. And the reason 757 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:54.519 for that is, as a player, I want to know 758 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:57.920 that this is my last turn before I'm taking that turn. 759 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:01.159 It's a psychological impact. I don't want me to take 760 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.000 a turn in the game and then something happened and 761 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:05.039 the end of the game is triggered. Oh, I don't 762 00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:08.880 get no, no, sorry, and so many games have that now, 763 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.840 and I'm going to credit it to Through the Ages. 764 00:40:11.079 --> 00:40:12.800 You can look this up later. I might be wrong, 765 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.159 but I remember Through the Ages being one of those 766 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.559 games that used that mechanism because it just makes sense, 767 00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.239 and so many games afterwards have used it. Again, I 768 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:27.079 might be improperly attributing it to Through the Ages, but 769 00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:30.639 there's other things about the game as well. There's the 770 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:34.559 the way that he's done a civilization game without a map, 771 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:39.039 and it showed that games don't need maps. I don't 772 00:40:39.079 --> 00:40:41.159 need little pieces on the board that I'm moving four 773 00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.480 spaces towards you. All I need to know is that 774 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:48.239 Ben's kingdom is within attack reach and I can attack 775 00:40:48.280 -->

00:40:51.840 it if I want to. So it abstracted out the 776 00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.199 map part of any civilization game, and I don't think 777 00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:57.880 it lost anything lost nothing. No. 778 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:03.679 I want to talk now about what you're probably most 779 00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:06.880 well known for in the world of gamers, and this 780 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.400 is gaming rules. So what made you venture onto YouTube? 781 00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:15.719 This was down to the fact that my career in 782 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:21.239 it was not going smoothly. I was having issues with 783 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:25.400 the place that I was working at the time, and 784 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:31.280 I basically needed a plan in my mind for what 785 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.400 I can do in the future. Now, going back to 786 00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:37.039 what we were talking about earlier on when I went 787 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:40.119 to university, my plan was to become a teacher. I 788 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:43.960 love imparting knowledge to people. I loved teaching games, but 789 00:41:44.119 --> 00:41:47.199 not only I love teaching games. I love teaching anybody 790 00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.480 about anything. If I find out any fact, I will 791 00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:53.320 not quite walk around Clumpton and tell everybody because I 792 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:57.880 just love teaching people information about the world and everything else. 793 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:02.519 So always liked teaching game. And then it was at 794 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.599 the point, this is going back maybe thirteen years now, 795 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.760 twelve thirteen years, where I went, I love teaching games. 796 00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.199 My career in it is not going so well, and 797 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.199 I need something else to do. Have got an idea. 798 00:42:16.519 --> 00:42:18.079 What I'm going to do is I'm going to create 799 00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:22.360 a YouTube channel where I teach people how to play games. 800 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.480 And this was this was my idea. I thought, this 801 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:25.280 is a great idea. 802 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:28.519 So who came first? You were Rodney Rodney, right. 803 00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.880 But the funny thing is when I then spoke to 804 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.119 a few people about this idea, they went, you mean, 805 00:42:35.239 --> 00:42:38.159 like Rodney Smith, And I went, Who's Rodney Smith? So 806 00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:40.880 I went onto YouTube and looked at Rodney's early videos 807 00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:43.000 from like, you know, twelve years ago, and went, no, 808 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:46.480 he stole them my idea, so he st and of 809 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:47.960 coause he didn't steal my idea. He came up with 810 00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:50.159 the idea first. But what I'm saying is I didn't 811 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:53.079 steal his idea. I had the idea on my own 812 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:55.679 in the shower one morning, and it was only when 813 00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:57.599 I spoke to other people about it that they said, 814 00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:00.519 there's already this guy already doing it. And I basically 815 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.480 looked at those videos and went, yeah, there's literally exactly 816 00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.199 what I want to do. A not a review, not 817 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.719 a playthrough, nothing like that. I'm just going to sit 818 00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:10.760 here and I'm going to teach you how to play 819 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:12.360 a game. And that's what I wanted to do. And 820 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:13.719 I thought this is going to be good for me 821 00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.880 because I like teaching people how to play games. So 822 00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:18.519 that's that's how I came up with the idea. 823 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:23.000 And so what do you think, I mean the obvious 824 00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:25.320 The obvious answer is I help people learn games. Up 825 00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:29.480 there are lots of channels, and there's a reason that 826 00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:33.320 there were there's a reason that you and Rodney still 827 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:37.360 kind of remain the sort of gold standard for that 828 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:39.360 kind of board game content. What do you what do 829 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:40.880 you bring to board game media? 830 00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.440 Do you think if we're if we're focusing specifically on 831 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:47.679 the how to play videos, which is mainly what Rodney does, 832 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.199 I do them. I do other types of content as well. 833 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:56.519 But if we're focusing specifically on the pure tutorials, what 834 00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:00.000 it brings is an alternative way for people to learn 835 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:05.079 a game without any fluff, so they don't want, for example, 836 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:06.639 play through videos that I do can be two and 837 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:09.199 a half hours long. Right, Well, we don't have two 838 00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.360 and a half hours sometimes, So the how to play 839 00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:15.159 video is essentially the same as reading the rule book, 840 00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:19.159 but in video form. Now, I'm not going to go 841 00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:21.719 through the appendix. So the appendix at the back of 842 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:24.360 the rule book where it explains all twenty five different 843 00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:26.199 prophecy titles, I'm not going to go through all them. 844 00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:28.519 I'm going to say, refer to the appendix for what 845 00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.760 the prophecy titles do, but I am going to explain 846 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.960 how to play the

game. And the idea is if 847 00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:35.480 you watch one of mine or Rodney's how to play videos, 848 00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:39.119 you can then go away and play the game. Without 849 00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:41.440 having to have read the rule book and the real 850 00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.920 big advantage of these videos, and I'm surprised more people 851 00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:46.880 don't do this. If you've got a games night, you 852 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:49.320 know what game you're going to play, people come round 853 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:52.119 and I get so many messages from people that say, Paul, 854 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.440 thank you very much for your video. I'm playing this 855 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:57.440 game this weekend. I've watched your video three times and 856 00:44:57.480 --> 00:44:59.960 I've practiced teaching it to my dog. I'm now read 857 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:02.800 I can teach my game group. And I'm like, yeah, 858 00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.599 Or what you could have done is invited them around, 859 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:07.679 put the laptop at the end of the table, press 860 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:13.000 play and you would have zero stress because more or you. 861 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:15.559 Could send them the video beforehand and make them watch. 862 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:20.039 It or do that. Now that has mixed results because 863 00:45:20.039 --> 00:45:24.079 there's always one person, there's always one absolutely, But yeah, 864 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:26.119 if you just put the how to play video on 865 00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:29.639 at the end of the table, then A you don't 866 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.119 have to have spent the entire week learning it and 867 00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.320 practicing it, worrying that you're going to miss a rule 868 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:39.400 because I'm doing it for you. And yeah, I think 869 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:42.039 it's I think it's a good way of learning games. 870 00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:46.559 But ironically I can't learn games from how to play videos. 871 00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:48.960 I can't do it. My brain does not work that 872 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:49.679 way at all. 873 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.440 So you do a lot of stuff on your channel 874 00:45:55.800 --> 00:45:58.920 because it's your job and you know you need to 875 00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:03.320 and the algorithm needs that kind of feeding. How hard 876 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.000 is it to produce so much content? 877 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.480 I think I have a different outlook on it to 878 00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.880 some other content creators. So if I was to tell 879 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:19.159 you that if I stopped doing any paid content tomorrow, 880 00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:23.159 I would carry on with my channel almost exactly as 881 00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:31.880 it was. I don't run gaming rules. How do I 882 00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:33.280 want to say this? If

I say I don't run 883 00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:36.360 gaming rules to make money, no, that's it. I don't 884 00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:38.639 run gaming rules to make money. That is not my 885 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:42.079 driving force of why I have the channel. What is 886 00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:44.719 the driving force on me producing as much content as 887 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.760 I do? Because I want to produce content. I don't 888 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:51.480 do it for the algorithm. I don't do it for 889 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.639 the views. I do it because I'm a passionate gamer 890 00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:58.960 who wants to do it. Now. The fact is I 891 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:01.480 have managed to turn it into a career and a 892 00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:03.480 lot of the content that I do is paid for. 893 00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.239 I can't spend, you know, eighty five hours creating the 894 00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.760 how to play void for video for free. It is 895 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.800 a job. Do I enjoy doing that job? Hell yeah, 896 00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:15.559 when it's a game like Void Fall, where I'm going, 897 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:17.719 oh my god, they've picked me, I'm gonna be the 898 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.559 one that does this, and it's a game that I love. So, 899 00:47:21.880 --> 00:47:25.000 you know, there's enjoyable parts of it. The least enjoyable 900 00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.280 parts of it is when the rendering software is failing 901 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:28.800 and I'm up at three o'clock in the morning for 902 00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:31.480 four days trying to get it to work because I've 903 00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:32.880 got a deadline of getting the video done. 904 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:36.960 You know that if your ram dies now, you're absolutely. 905 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:41.119 Screwed, exactly exactly. So yeah, to say that I don't 906 00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:46.239 run the channel in order to get views, grow the channel, 907 00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:51.199 you know, make money or anything like that. My entire 908 00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:54.639 reason for doing everything is because I like playing games 909 00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:57.119 and I like creating content. At the end of every 910 00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.719 sponsored playthrough video that I do, or even at the start, 911 00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:03.400 I say, look, this is a sponsored play through video, 912 00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:06.000 so a live playthrough on the channel, it's sponsored by 913 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.039 the publisher. I say, because it's sponsored, we're not going 914 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:09.760 to give you an opinion for me to do a 915 00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:11.840 sponsored play through video and ant the end of the video, 916 00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:13.840 say we all think this game is fantastic. You should 917 00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.360 all go and buy it. It's like, no, I'm not 918 00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.400 going to do that. But what I say is I'm 919 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:21.599 here to help you make a decision about whether this 920 00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:23.599 is the kind of game you like. And if you've 921 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:27.800 watched my play through video and you go, I hated that, 922 00:48:27.800 --> 00:48:32.199 that's awful. I'm not going to buy this game. I'm happy, right, 923 00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:34.679 I'm happy. The publisher is not happy, But I'm happy 924 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:38.280 because I've helped you make a decision and put you 925 00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:39.920 off buying a game that you were perhaps going to 926 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:42.199 buy because some of the content creator has told you 927 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.679 how great it was. I've shown you the game being played, 928 00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:48.800 You've seen it. You've made a decision. It's an informed 929 00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.000 a decision, and that makes me happy. 930 00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:54.079 What you should do, Paul, is you should play the game, 931 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:57.159 not like it, then send an email to a publisher 932 00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.960 saying if you give me extra money, I'll do it 933 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:01.039 good review of your game. 934 00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:02.519 That's what you should. Hang on a minute, I'm gonna 935 00:49:02.519 --> 00:49:04.440 write that down. That's a really good tip. Right. 936 00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:08.679 Okay, So so you make money on Patreon, you make 937 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:13.199 money from publishers. Firstly, Firstly, what percentage of your income. 938 00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:14.920 I'm not going to ask numbers, but what percentage of 939 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:18.360 your income? Are those two things? And secondly, does the 940 00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:24.719 precarious nature of being funded by randos on the internet 941 00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:25.719 stress you out? 942 00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:30.360 The percentage changes? And I would like to say where 943 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:33.800 we are right now, at this moment in time, it's 944 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:38.480 about sixty forty in favor of Patreon. So approximately sixty 945 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:42.119 percent of my monthly income comes from Patreon and approximately 946 00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:46.320 forty percent comes from publishers paying for it. Go back 947 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:49.800 four years, it was eighty twenty in favor of publishers. 948 00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:56.480 So as my Patreon support has increased, I've been doing 949 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.239 less and less paid content because it feels wrong to 950 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:03.760 me to say, look, I'm doing all of this paid content. 951 00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:08.000 Also give me money on Patreon and get paid again 952 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:10.159 for the stuff that I'm already being paid for. So 953 00:50:10.239 -->

00:50:13.480 what I try to do is I try to balance it. 954 00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:15.119 And this is purely because this is what I want 955 00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:17.199 to do. Nobody's telling me to do this. But as 956 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:20.280 more and more Patreon money comes in, I'm doing more 957 00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:22.639 and more unpaid content. If we look at the content 958 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.840 that I'm doing this week, for example, I think i've 959 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:28.920 got five live streams this week and none of them 960 00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.719 are paid for, not a single one. So that makes 961 00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:37.079 me happy because A, I'm getting enough money from Patreon 962 00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:39.159 that I don't need to worry about oh my god, 963 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:41.639 I'm not doing any paid work this week. But also 964 00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.800 it makes me feel better that all of these people 965 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.639 that are giving me money they're getting something more back 966 00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:49.599 and just going back to what we said earlier on 967 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:53.039 I'm not doing these five live streams this week because 968 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:55.400 of this monthly money I'm getting from Patron. I'm doing 969 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:56.480 them because I want to do them. 970 00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.119 So your next game, then, is what you wrote in 971 00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:03.599 the bio was no one is going to have heard 972 00:51:03.639 --> 00:51:05.880 of this, and I haven't heard of this, and this 973 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:08.440 is X bugs, So step what is X bugs and 974 00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:09.400 why is it specialty? 975 00:51:09.559 --> 00:51:09.639 So? 976 00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:15.159 X Bugs is a little Tiddley Winks style flicking game 977 00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:21.320 from Steve Jackson Games Now. Going back to the late nineties, 978 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.719 I was part of the Steve Jackson Games demo team 979 00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:27.920 known as the Men in Black, and I grew up 980 00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:33.280 playing car Wars, Ogre Illuminati, various games from Steve Jackson 981 00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:36.599 Games Now. Steve Jackson Games are now famous for Munchkin 982 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:40.920 and various other games, but Munchkin was the big one 983 00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:46.599 for them. And because I was just an excited gamer 984 00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:48.840 and wanting to do things, I had the opportunity to 985 00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:51.559 join the Steve Jackson Games demo team in the late nineties, 986 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:56.079 and I actually went to UK conventions demoing games like 987 00:51:56.360 --> 00:52:01.119 Ogre and Munchkin and you know, things like that. And 988 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:08.519 I was at jen Con UK in two thousand and three. 989 00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:14.360 So jen Con UK has had

various iterations over the years, 990 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.039 and I think in two thousand and three they were 991 00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:21.800 trying to make it into a bigger, more prestigious event 992 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.039 than it had been before, which was basically at Leicestershire 993 00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:27.360 University or something like that. So it was at the 994 00:52:28.039 --> 00:52:33.119 Olympia in London, proper big venue and they properly organized 995 00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:36.800 it and everything else. And I was there with another 996 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:40.880 member of the Steve Jackson Games demo team known as Guy, 997 00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:43.320 an Irish guy called Coln who had never met before, 998 00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:47.239 but I was sharing a room with him, and we 999 00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:49.400 were there and we had this little table upstairs in 1000 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:54.360 the exhibitors area and we were demoing Munchkin and probably 1001 00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:56.400 a couple of other games, and we were also demoing 1002 00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:01.239 this little Tilliy Wings game called xbugs. Now, so how 1003 00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:04.639 old was I I'm trying to I'm trying to up 1004 00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.239 thirty three. Yeah, so I think I was thirty three 1005 00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:09.920 years old, but acting like I was twenty one because 1006 00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:13.920 my my growing up and my knowledge of the real 1007 00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:17.159 world kind of developed a lot later in life. Meanwhile, 1008 00:53:17.159 --> 00:53:20.000 you've got this Irish guy, Colm, who is the most 1009 00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:23.679 extrovert person you can ever meet. And at one point 1010 00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:26.320 we were there and it was fairly quiet. He said, 1011 00:53:26.519 --> 00:53:30.719 I'm going to go off and get me some girls, right, 1012 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:34.360 So he just ran off and left me there on 1013 00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:36.000 my own. I mean there was there was nobody there 1014 00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:37.800 at the time, but I was I was like, okay, right, 1015 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:41.880 And then about fifteen minutes later he arrived back with 1016 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.000 two girls, these like, you know, university students that were there, 1017 00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:49.360 and he sat them down and said, Paul, teach them 1018 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.760 how to play this. I taught them how to play 1019 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:56.039 x bugs. And he was awful. I mean, he was 1020 00:53:56.239 --> 00:54:00.199 just the most flirtatious person and they was. It was 1021 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.239 making me uncomfortable because my experience of the world was 1022 00:54:03.440 --> 00:54:06.519 quite low at this point and I'm like, you can't 1023 00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.599 say that. They're probably like, you know, nineteen or something, 1024

00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:13.960 and it was just right, really anyway, then we got 1025 00:54:13.960 --> 00:54:15.880 on and we taught them how to play Munchkin, and 1026 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:19.400 then he invited them back to our hotel room. And 1027 00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:23.920 I'm like, hang on a minute, that's not how it is. 1028 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:26.440 I mean, I've heard stories of this thing kind of 1029 00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:29.400 thing happening of many inviting women back to I said, 1030 00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:33.440 but they're quite young and we don't know them, and 1031 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.480 this is all making me a little bit uncomfortable. But 1032 00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:39.920 he was like, so, I. 1033 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:41.800 Mean, especially as you're an in cell at the time. 1034 00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:47.199 Right now, he was, I mean, I still know cold now. 1035 00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:51.519 He was just very flirtatious. He wasn't like arrogant or 1036 00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.639 full of himself or anything like that. It was all 1037 00:54:53.679 --> 00:54:59.199 just fun. But they said yes, and I'm like, what 1038 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:02.400 are you doing? Why are you saying yes to two 1039 00:55:02.440 --> 00:55:06.559 strange men older than you who you don't know, who 1040 00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:09.320 were inviting you back to their hotel room in just 1041 00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:11.800 this is weird. This is really weird. Anyway, they came 1042 00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:13.920 back and we just sat there and we chatted about 1043 00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.320 games and you know, various other bits, and he was 1044 00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:19.719 still flirting like there was no tomorrow, to the point 1045 00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:23.079 where I thought, again, this was making it a little 1046 00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:25.840 bit uncomfortable because there's a there's a final line between 1047 00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:28.199 flirting when you obviously don't mean it and you're just 1048 00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.880 saying stuff to have fun and does he actually really 1049 00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:35.280 mean the things that he's saying. But anyway, we exchanged 1050 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.760 numbers and they you know, we walked them back to 1051 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:42.360 their hotel room and that was that was the evening, 1052 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:44.239 and I think we met up with them the next day. Anyway, 1053 00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:49.119 I'm now married to one of them, and. 1054 00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:55.320 So and so basically X Bugs is the reason that 1055 00:55:55.360 --> 00:55:56.159 you're a married man. 1056 00:55:56.559 --> 00:56:00.880 Yes, now the story has been in the asked It 1057 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:04.639 was through Munchkin that we met, but that is a 1058 00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:09.840 little bit of a change of the reality. To quote 1059 00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:13.320 a game that people have heard of, the actual game 1060 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:16.239 that I first taught Vicki how to play was xbugs 1061 00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:18.039 and there is still a copy of it in the 1062 00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:22.159 attic and therefore that will go with me into the cabin. 1063 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:31.639 So how did uk ge last year complete this circle 1064 00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:32.360 of romance? 1065 00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:39.679 So yeah, well, we've talked about Colon already and we 1066 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:43.719 stayed in contact for a little bit afterwards, but not much. 1067 00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:47.639 And then last year at UK Games Expo, I was 1068 00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:50.760 at the Martin Wallace booth chatting with Julia, Martin's wife, 1069 00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:54.199 and there was this guy stood next to me at 1070 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:58.559 the booth, also talking to them about fighting, fantasy books 1071 00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:00.000 and this, that and the other, and I just said 1072 00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:02.960 to him, which is your favorite book? And we started 1073 00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.360 chatting about books, and then we both just looked at 1074 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:14.360 each other and there was this Yeah. There was just 1075 00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:17.559 this moment for about five seconds where we just stared 1076 00:57:17.559 --> 00:57:21.239 at each other, and then he went Paul, and I 1077 00:57:21.280 --> 00:57:24.000 went yeah, and that was it. Yeah. 1078 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:31.000 And so did you have that moment where you looked 1079 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:34.239 at him and you realized how old you were? 1080 00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.719 Yes, and how old he was as well. I mean, 1081 00:57:37.800 --> 00:57:41.679 it's been twenty two years since I last tore him, 1082 00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.679 and it's been twenty years since I spoke to him, 1083 00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:49.079 and I'm aware that he is in the board game hobby. 1084 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:51.320 He's got a board game cafe, and he's got a 1085 00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:55.360 board game museum in Ireland, a little bit like Tony's music. 1086 00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:57.800 Don't tell Tony Tony Tonio burn it down. 1087 00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:01.599 And he's got all of these, you know, memorabilia and 1088 00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:04.480 things like this. He's got some of the original scripts 1089 00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:07.360 that Ian Livingston wrote for the and Steve Jackson the UK. 1090 00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:10.800 Steve Jackson wrote for the Fighting Fancy Books signed He's 1091 00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:14.159 got the original manuscripts of them, so yeah, he's very 1092 00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:17.400 much still in the hobby. It's just I've not had 1093 00:58:17.440 --> 00:58:20.960 any contact with him, and it was just, yeah, seeing 1094 00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:24.000 him again at the point where i am already in 1095

00:58:24.039 --> 00:58:30.079 an emotional state because I've just been chatting with Ian Livingston, 1096 00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:33.400 sir Ian Livingstone about the Fighting Fancy Books, which, as 1097 00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.320 we've discussed earlier on in this podcast. Without them, I 1098 00:58:36.360 --> 00:58:38.719 wouldn't be where I am now. So I'm already in 1099 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:42.840 this state where I'm almost about to break down in tears, 1100 00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:46.800 and yeah, bumped into col So that was really nice. 1101 00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:50.400 So I want to talk about something more broad now, 1102 00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.320 which is the state of board games. Because you're someone 1103 00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:56.760 who loves the art form and someone who thinks about 1104 00:58:56.760 --> 00:58:58.840 the art form. So where do you see the state 1105 00:58:58.880 --> 00:58:59.920 of games currently? 1106 00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:05.199 It is interesting because there's so many positives about games 1107 00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:08.719 and there's so many negatives. So there are always people 1108 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:12.280 every year that say, I've looked at the two and 1109 00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:14.960 a half thousand new games coming out that this year's 1110 00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:19.840 essen and they're all shit. There's nothing of interest right right, 1111 00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:23.239 And I'm friends with some of these people. But you know, 1112 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:28.719 I'm always on the positive side of gaming in that 1113 00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.000 every year there are always a whole bunch of games 1114 00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.000 that come out that are great and I love playing, 1115 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.199 and I don't care that twenty and twenty five was 1116 00:59:38.239 --> 00:59:40.920 a weaker game than twenty twenty four. I don't care 1117 00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:43.360 as long as some great games came out in twenty 1118 00:59:43.480 --> 00:59:46.800 twenty five that I really enjoy playing great, that's it. 1119 00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:52.320 So there's always good games coming out. However, there's also 1120 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:54.480 a lot of terrible games coming out, and I think 1121 00:59:54.519 --> 01:00:00.559 crowdfunding has led to this issue. Think a lot of 1122 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:03.280 people saw gloom Haven and when I can do that, I. 1123 01:00:03.199 --> 01:00:06.679 Think crowdfunding is the single worst influence on board game 1124 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.960 design right to have happened, but much worse than AI 1125 01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:10.719 frankly right. 1126 01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:14.480 But we also get non crowdfunding games that come out 1127 01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:16.719 at essen that are just not good games. So we 1128 01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:20.760 do get bad games coming out, We get terrible games 1129 01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:22.920 coming out, but we also get great games coming out. 1130 01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:25.960 I think the state of the board game hobby is Yes, 1131 01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:28.400 there are more bad games coming out now than there 1132 01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.840 were before, because we have more games coming out than 1133 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:34.800 we had before. I don't think the percentage of bad 1134 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:38.320 games versus good games. I don't think it's changed. I 1135 01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:42.239 think we've just got more of everything. And so is 1136 01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:45.360 it a good thing that we have more of everything now? 1137 01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:47.199 Or is it? Or is it a bad thing? 1138 01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:49.880 It's there's too much. I mean, it's a bad thing 1139 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:53.000 from a few angles. First of all, as a consumer, 1140 01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:56.639 you just can't buy everything. And if you do buy everything, 1141 01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:58.440 you can't play everything. So what's the point in buying 1142 01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:00.119 it if you're not going to play it. As a 1143 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:05.559 content creator, I have had to get over and this 1144 01:01:05.719 --> 01:01:07.639 was a really difficult thing for me to do about 1145 01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:10.400 four or five years ago. I had to mentally get 1146 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:14.559 over I am coming back for Messon, not with all 1147 01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:18.000 of the hot games, and I every year I have 1148 01:01:18.079 --> 01:01:19.920 to look through the list and I go, right, I'm 1149 01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.800 gonna pick twenty of these, and there's at least twenty 1150 01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:25.000 more that I could have picked. But I have to 1151 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:28.760 draw the line somewhere because there simply isn't enough time 1152 01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:31.480 to cover all of these new games. So it's great 1153 01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:35.039 that we've got a lot of choice, but it's also 1154 01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:37.679 bad that well, it's not a bad thing, it's just 1155 01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:40.599 a reality that I'm going to get to place. Sorry, 1156 01:01:40.639 --> 01:01:43.880 I'm not going to get to play some great games 1157 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:46.280 that came out at s and last year because I 1158 01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:48.119 just haven't got the time to do so. 1159 01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:52.599 And So, where do you see the hobby in sort 1160 01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.400 of the next five to ten years and your place 1161 01:01:55.440 --> 01:01:55.800 in it? 1162 01:01:56.800 --> 01:01:58.880 I think my place in it, I'm hoping he is 1163 01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:02.039 going to still be exactly the same now. The only 1164 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:04.280 thing I think that's going to change for me is 1165 01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:06.440 when I can eventually get fiber broad band to the 1166

01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:09.519 house and I can start streaming in four K. I mean, 1167 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:12.639 I mean, I'm talking really technical specifics here, but I 1168 01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:16.360 can't see me doing anything different in at least five 1169 01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:18.599 years from now because I want to carry on doing 1170 01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:21.360 what I'm doing. I just want to improve the quality 1171 01:02:21.559 --> 01:02:25.519 of what I'm doing rather than changing, you know, what 1172 01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:27.760 it is that I do. As far as the hobby, 1173 01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:31.559 I'm thinking I've been waiting for the bottom to fall 1174 01:02:31.599 --> 01:02:34.400 out of the crowdfunding market for the last three or 1175 01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:36.800 four years. I mean, there's so many games now that 1176 01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:43.119 are no cheaper on Kickstarter. You know, so many stories 1177 01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:46.119 of oh but it was available in retail like one 1178 01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:49.199 day after for cheaper than Yeah, this is happening all 1179 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:54.280 the time, and yet still the crowdfunding platforms are making 1180 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:58.039 a huge amount of money from games, so it's clearly 1181 01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:00.320 still working for them. It's clearly success there not going 1182 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:02.719 to stop using it as a platform because it's working 1183 01:03:02.719 --> 01:03:06.239 for them. But I am still confused as to how 1184 01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:11.639 more and more people are not, you know, stopping crowdfunding 1185 01:03:11.679 --> 01:03:13.880 because of all of the issues. And to be fair, 1186 01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:16.320 it's not all of the publishers that have got all 1187 01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.599 of the issues. Some publishers are really good at using it. 1188 01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:22.039 But even publishers that aren't good at using it, that 1189 01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:26.000 have got terrible customer service, still managed to raise huge 1190 01:03:26.000 --> 01:03:29.000 amounts of money, and I don't understand how that happens. 1191 01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:31.800 I'm going to do a video on this fairly soon. 1192 01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:35.039 I'm going to try and elucidate some of the reasons 1193 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:38.639 I think it is. I am I am. I think 1194 01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.880 I think crowdfunding was wonderful when it was a genuine kickstarter, 1195 01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:47.400 when it was funding the dreams of clever people who 1196 01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:51.039 just didn't have the capital. But now it's a it's 1197 01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:55.280 a PR and a PR thing, it's a marketing thing, 1198 01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:59.880 it's a pre ordered thing, and fundamentally, my biggest issue 1199 01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:05.400 is and I wouldn't ask you to besmirch yourself. But 1200 01:04:06.119 --> 01:04:10.960 game found offering stretch pay on board game pledges, I 1201 01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:13.679 think is predatory and disgusting. 1202 01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:20.559 Frank as a consumer, lots of people love it. 1203 01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:23.599 Yeah, lots of people love drinking ten pints every night. 1204 01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:24.719 And it's not good for them. 1205 01:04:24.639 --> 01:04:24.920 Is it? 1206 01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:25.239 You know? 1207 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:27.639 I see what you mean. Yeah. 1208 01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:32.719 So your next game then is your number one, and 1209 01:04:32.760 --> 01:04:35.880 it's by a little known designer out of the Czech 1210 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:39.719 Republic called Ladachvatal, And this is Mage Night. Why is 1211 01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:42.840 Mage Night not Through the Ages? You're number one? 1212 01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:47.719 I mean, yeah, there's something a little bit more special 1213 01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:50.639 about Mage Night than Through the Ages for me because 1214 01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:55.880 of my possible lover fantasy in background, and the fact 1215 01:04:55.880 --> 01:04:57.800 that I played D and D and Mage Night is 1216 01:04:57.840 --> 01:04:59.880 not D and D. But you are a fantasy car 1217 01:05:00.159 --> 01:05:03.559 are traveling around killing monsters, getting experience points, leveling up, 1218 01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:06.800 et cetera, et cetera. I think for Mage Night. I mean, 1219 01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:10.199 my first experience with Mage Night was when I'd already 1220 01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:13.440 got a relationship with Larger at this point and he said, Paul, 1221 01:05:13.480 --> 01:05:15.320 I've got this game that I'm working on. It's a 1222 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.079 big fantasy, you know, dungeon crawl style game, but not 1223 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:22.360 in a dungeon across you know, overland and whatever. And 1224 01:05:22.400 --> 01:05:23.760 I was like, all right, yeah, and he says, but 1225 01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:27.559 it's not going to be with CGE because CG can't 1226 01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:30.239 They're not geared up to be able to publish this game. 1227 01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:31.920 It's too big for them, and it's going to need 1228 01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.400 miniatures which they can't do, and everything else. So it's 1229 01:05:34.440 --> 01:05:37.760 going to be published by a US company called wiz Kids. 1230 01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:41.039 And I said, okay, well send me through what you've 1231 01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:43.880 got and I'll have a look at it. And he 1232 01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:47.400 sent me through this eighty five page word document which 1233 01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:49.880 he'd written because Larger writes all of his own rule 1234 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:54.960 books and stuff. And I I just read through it, 1235 01:05:55.039 --> 01:06:02.039 and if it's possible to be sexually excited by

reading 1236 01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:03.760 board game rule books. 1237 01:06:03.880 --> 01:06:08.639 I'm sure there's there's a lane for everyone. Paul. 1238 01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:12.199 The impact it had on me, I mean I was 1239 01:06:12.599 --> 01:06:15.280 literally just frothing at the mouth by reading this game. 1240 01:06:15.679 --> 01:06:17.599 And the words that I said at the time were, 1241 01:06:17.960 --> 01:06:20.119 this is a game I've waited my whole life for 1242 01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:26.440 because traditionally your fantasy dungeon crawley, fighting monsters, getting experienced points, 1243 01:06:26.519 --> 01:06:32.079 leveling up, etc. Are dice based randomness, you know, that's 1244 01:06:32.159 --> 01:06:35.719 traditionally what they are, and this wasn't. This was a 1245 01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:39.880 deterministic puzzle style game using the cards that you have 1246 01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:42.480 available to you in order to try and achieve what 1247 01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:44.880 you need to achieve. And I was just and this 1248 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:47.480 was just from reading through the rules and then when 1249 01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:49.480 I print and played my own version, it took me 1250 01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:52.079 three days to print off all of the bits, make 1251 01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:54.719 it up, and play a game of it. I was 1252 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:59.800 just like, oh wow, this is something very very special 1253 01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:02.920 and I knew it at the time. And I am 1254 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:08.840 so glad that we are now what fourteen fifteen years 1255 01:07:08.840 --> 01:07:13.599 on that the game is still massively popular and still 1256 01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:17.239 being played and still you know, as of recently being 1257 01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.679 continued to be supported by wiz Kids. So yeah, it 1258 01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:22.840 was right from my first experience reading through the rule 1259 01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:24.880 book and then playing the game was just great. 1260 01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:31.800 And so did this help you to form a relationship 1261 01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:32.639 with wiz Kids? 1262 01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:36.280 Absolutely, I mean it didn't help form the relationship. It 1263 01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:38.760 did form the relationship because I had no relationship with 1264 01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:42.039 wiz Kids before this. And also, going back to what 1265 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:44.599 we were saying earlier on about rule books, I was 1266 01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:49.559 involved in helping proofread and edit, you know, the original 1267 01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:52.840 rule book. Me and VICKI I think I think I 1268 01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:56.039 took a week off work because there was a deadline. 1269 01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:59.239 It needed checking and it was huge. Whiz Kids didn't. 1270 01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:02.679 They weren't expecting it. They weren't expecting a game of 1271 01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:07.760 this level of complexity. But yeah, so it took a 1272 01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:10.679 lot longer to proofreado and check the rule book than 1273 01:08:10.800 --> 01:08:15.159 they were expecting. And what I did. The year it 1274 01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:18.079 came out, wiz Kids were like, well, we do have 1275 01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:21.119 a boother essen, right, We've got this booth and we're 1276 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:23.439 going to have these glass display cabinets where we're going 1277 01:08:23.479 --> 01:08:25.640 to be showing all of our Dice Master stuff and 1278 01:08:25.680 --> 01:08:29.279 our hero Click stuff and everything else. And we'll probably 1279 01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:32.720 have a couple of small tables for just to have 1280 01:08:32.800 --> 01:08:34.720 a game on so that people can see the components. 1281 01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:36.920 And I went, well, I want to demo this game, 1282 01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:40.640 and they went, well, we don't have space for you 1283 01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:42.399 to demo this game. And I said, but I really 1284 01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:45.199 want to demo this game to people. Having this game 1285 01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:48.000 in a display cabinet is not going to do it. 1286 01:08:48.439 --> 01:08:50.680 You're going to need a table. I said, look, if 1287 01:08:50.680 --> 01:08:53.520 you give me a table I will sit and I 1288 01:08:53.560 --> 01:08:58.520 will demo Maje Night NonStop for four days, and they went, okay, 1289 01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:00.760 we'll get you a table. So they got me this 1290 01:09:00.920 --> 01:09:04.039 two foot square table. Now, Mage Night is a big game, 1291 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:08.479 and we managed to run three or four player demos 1292 01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:12.760 of this game NonStop. And again this was pre me 1293 01:09:12.960 --> 01:09:16.000 working in the industry really, so I wasn't getting paid 1294 01:09:16.000 --> 01:09:18.760 for any of this. I offered to do it because 1295 01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:22.760 I wanted the masses to know about this new game 1296 01:09:23.600 --> 01:09:26.560 called Mage Night. And yeah, I spent four days demo 1297 01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:29.640 and get on this tiny little table, and everybody who 1298 01:09:29.640 --> 01:09:32.359 came over was just they had the same feeling about 1299 01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:35.279 it as I did when I first experienced it. And 1300 01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:37.720 because I was so excited and so passionate about it, 1301 01:09:37.960 --> 01:09:41.199 I put that into the demo and that really helped 1302 01:09:41.199 --> 01:09:44.600 as well. So reading all of the reports after essen 1303 01:09:45.159 --> 01:09:47.319 of oh we got this demo of mag Night, it 1304 01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:48.760 was fantastic. And now I've bought the game and it's 1305 01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:51.039 the best game ever. It was just it. It made 1306 01:09:51.119 -->

01:09:54.520 me so happy. And therefore Whiskeys went, who's this random 1307 01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:56.840 guy who's just demoed for us for four days? But 1308 01:09:57.199 --> 01:09:59.039 you know, working at the booth I got to know them, 1309 01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:01.960 got chatting with them. Yeah, that led on to a 1310 01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:04.119 working relationship, which is fifteen years now. 1311 01:10:05.439 --> 01:10:07.159 So I want to talk now about the future. So 1312 01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:10.319 you've already touched on this, but what is the future 1313 01:10:10.359 --> 01:10:11.399 for gaming rules? 1314 01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:15.640 More of the same, literally, more of the same. Well, 1315 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:18.199 I say more of the same. What I've been trying 1316 01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:21.479 to do over the last year year and a half 1317 01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:26.680 and sometimes unsuccessfully, is say no more. Because I get 1318 01:10:26.680 --> 01:10:30.159 offers from publishers. To Paul, we've got a game, it's 1319 01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:31.760 coming to Kickstarter. We'd like you to do a play 1320 01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:33.560 through video. How much is it going to cost. I 1321 01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:35.600 go back to them, We discuss costs, and they say yeah, 1322 01:10:35.640 --> 01:10:37.800 we'll do it, and then I get it. I cover 1323 01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:39.840 the game, I get paid for covering the game. I 1324 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:41.560 help you make a decision about whether it's the kind 1325 01:10:41.600 --> 01:10:43.479 of game you like, and then I never play the 1326 01:10:43.479 --> 01:10:47.600 game again. And I want to do less of them now. 1327 01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.279 In some respects, I need to do them in order 1328 01:10:50.319 --> 01:10:53.119 to pay the bills. But like we discussed earlier on 1329 01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:56.039 the Patreon money is so good right now, I'm in 1330 01:10:56.039 --> 01:11:00.600 the fortunate position where I can turn down more, and 1331 01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:03.920 I should be turning down more because as I've got 1332 01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:11.880 older and my tolerance has come down, and I've realized 1333 01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:15.720 that my time is the most valuable resource in this game. 1334 01:11:17.239 --> 01:11:21.720 There's nothing worse for me right now than spending my 1335 01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:24.079 time playing a game which I don't think is a 1336 01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:28.279 great game, and it really fills me with a really 1337 01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:30.560 I mean, I go to bed with massive anxiety and 1338 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:32.439 not able to sleep for three hours because I've played 1339 01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:34.399 a bad game, and therefore I've wasted three hours of 1340 01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:36.520 my life. The fact that I got paid for doing 1341 01:11:36.560 --> 01:11:39.560 it is irrelevant. I don't want to be spending

my 1342 01:11:39.680 --> 01:11:43.159 time playing bad games when I've got loads of great 1343 01:11:43.239 --> 01:11:46.800 games that I can play. So I think what I'd 1344 01:11:47.039 --> 01:11:49.439 like to do is over the next few years, assuming 1345 01:11:49.479 --> 01:11:54.800 nothing changes, is learned to say no better, even if 1346 01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:58.079 it's the offer of paid work. For example, this Friday, 1347 01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:01.760 I am taking the I'm doing Buddy is day off work, 1348 01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:04.199 and I'm covering two games that I'm not being paid 1349 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:07.319 to cover. Next Friday is another day off work, and 1350 01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:09.840 I'm covering two games that I'm not being paid to cover. 1351 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:14.000 But that will make me happy because these four games 1352 01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:17.199 are on my pile of opportunity and therefore, when they 1353 01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:19.399 get off my pile of opportunity, I get a little 1354 01:12:19.439 --> 01:12:22.520 dopamine hit. You know, that's four more ticks on the 1355 01:12:22.560 --> 01:12:25.359 list of games that Paul's owns but he hasn't played yet. 1356 01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:28.000 And the fact that I get those four games off 1357 01:12:28.039 --> 01:12:30.199 that list and they might be good games, they might 1358 01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:33.520 not be I don't know, but that I want to 1359 01:12:33.560 --> 01:12:36.159 be doing things that make me happy rather than getting 1360 01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:38.880 paid to do things that don't make me happy. 1361 01:12:40.039 --> 01:12:44.279 So, when you think about your career in the industry 1362 01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:47.520 and your career as a I hate the term, but 1363 01:12:47.560 --> 01:12:50.079 it's nevertheless the term we use content creator. What do 1364 01:12:50.119 --> 01:12:53.439 you think you've brought to this hobby over the last 1365 01:12:54.159 --> 01:12:55.159 decade and a half? 1366 01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:58.359 Content creator I find as the best term to use. 1367 01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:03.600 It's the term influencers makes me want to go, well, 1368 01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:04.800 it makes me want to go and have a shower 1369 01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:08.399 with hydrochloric acid. It's just it makes me feel icky 1370 01:13:08.760 --> 01:13:13.239 being called an influencer or a reviewer. But content creator 1371 01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:17.439 I find as a very generic. It's a description of 1372 01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:20.680 what it is that we do, and therefore that's fine. 1373 01:13:21.760 --> 01:13:24.479 What was the question again, what have you brought to 1374 01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:30.760 this industry? I think I've brought myself. I've not tried 1375 01:13:30.840 --> 01:13:35.640 to bring any fake personality. I've just brought myself, who 1376 01:13:35.680 --> 01:13:38.560 is somebody who is very passionate about board games

and 1377 01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:42.399 who actively wants to help people learn and teach those games. 1378 01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:46.159 And whilst my channel might not have gone off and 1379 01:13:46.239 --> 01:13:49.359 been as massively successful as some of the American channels, 1380 01:13:49.960 --> 01:13:54.600 the audience that do watch me appreciate me, and I 1381 01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:58.319 think for me that's one of the most is the 1382 01:13:58.359 --> 01:14:01.479 thing that gives me the warm and fuzzy feeling more 1383 01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:04.439 than anything else is the people who watch my videos 1384 01:14:04.880 --> 01:14:07.479 and make comments that they're glad that they're seeing the 1385 01:14:07.520 --> 01:14:13.960 real me doing those videos rather than somebody pretending, because 1386 01:14:13.960 --> 01:14:16.039 it is the real me, and what people see is 1387 01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:19.239 the real me. So yeah, I think that's that's what 1388 01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:23.199 I bring. But also when you look at my how 1389 01:14:23.239 --> 01:14:27.079 to play videos, I think they're really good because I 1390 01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:31.399 spend so long structuring the script. It's not just like 1391 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:34.359 I'll turn the camera on and press record and start talking. 1392 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:37.439 You know. For Void Fall, I spent three days writing 1393 01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:40.560 the script. That is almost twenty hours of work writing 1394 01:14:40.600 --> 01:14:43.560 that script, and not just writing it but getting it checked. 1395 01:14:43.920 --> 01:14:46.039 I literally sat down with somebody who didn't know how 1396 01:14:46.079 --> 01:14:49.520 to play the game, and I read through the entire 1397 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:52.319 script and taught them how to play from the script. 1398 01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:55.439 And anytime that they got confused, they put their hand 1399 01:14:55.479 --> 01:14:57.479 up and I stopped and I went what And they 1400 01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:00.319 went that thing you just said, I didn't understand it, right, Well, 1401 01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:03.600 let's tweak the script. So it isn't just writing the 1402 01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:05.600 script and then filming the video. It's writing the script, 1403 01:15:05.880 --> 01:15:09.079 checking the script, testing the script, editing the script, and 1404 01:15:09.119 --> 01:15:12.359 making sure you know. It's like anything you know with 1405 01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:15.279 the work that you do. It's a script. You test 1406 01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:17.560 the script. If parts of a script don't work, you 1407 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:19.239 go back and you edit the script and you change 1408 01:15:19.279 --> 01:15:24.439 it until it's better. And I think I'm really happy 1409 01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:28.800 that I bring with the how to play videos a 1410 01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:31.920 certain way of doing it that some people

really like. 1411 01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:35.960 So your last game, then, is a game I played 1412 01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:38.439 recently for the first time in ages and I really 1413 01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:42.600 really enjoyed. And this is Sherlock Holmes consulting Detective. Why 1414 01:15:42.680 --> 01:15:43.840 is this one special to you? 1415 01:15:44.520 --> 01:15:48.119 So as a kid, we've talked about my love of fantasy, 1416 01:15:48.760 --> 01:15:54.239 science fiction, James Bond. Sherlock Holmes is another one. So 1417 01:15:54.319 --> 01:15:58.399 I grew up watching the Black and White Sherlock Holmes 1418 01:15:59.039 --> 01:16:05.079 films with Basil Rathbone, which now as a Sherlock Holmes fan, 1419 01:16:06.199 --> 01:16:08.600 you look back on and think, God, these were awful. 1420 01:16:09.399 --> 01:16:13.479 They were not good in terms of how accurately they 1421 01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:18.039 portrayed Sherlock Holmes, especially Watson. Watson, he's not a bumbling 1422 01:16:18.039 --> 01:16:21.279 idiot like he was portrayed in those. But it was 1423 01:16:21.399 --> 01:16:26.000 those black and white Surlock Holmes things with Basar Rathmann 1424 01:16:26.039 --> 01:16:28.279 I watched as a kid, and I loved Chilock Combs, 1425 01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:30.800 and I had the whole collection of all of the 1426 01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:34.439 Sherlock Hombs short stories and read through them and loved them. 1427 01:16:35.199 --> 01:16:38.039 So when I was it's either twelve or thirteen, I 1428 01:16:38.039 --> 01:16:40.840 think it was thirteen, I was on holiday, So this 1429 01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:43.039 was nineteen eighty three. I was on holiday with my 1430 01:16:43.119 --> 01:16:48.760 parents in a caravan somewhere I don't remember where. It 1431 01:16:48.840 --> 01:16:50.439 may have been Whales, it may have been the south 1432 01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:54.239 of England, it doesn't matter. But at that point I 1433 01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:57.439 just got into the wallocka fartop mountain, and I just 1434 01:16:57.520 --> 01:16:59.560 got into I think I'd just got into maybe D 1435 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:01.560 and D or or something like that. Anyway, we were 1436 01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:04.760 on holiday and we were in this town and I 1437 01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.159 persuaded my mum and dud to find a game shop, 1438 01:17:07.399 --> 01:17:09.359 or we walked past the game shop whatever, I don't know, 1439 01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:11.359 but we walked into this game shop and they had 1440 01:17:11.399 --> 01:17:12.800 all of these games on the shelves and there was 1441 01:17:12.840 --> 01:17:16.479 one game and it said Shurlock Coomb's Consulting Detective. And 1442 01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:19.359 I was like, well, I've got to buy that because 1443 01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:22.479 I love Sherlock Combs. So we bought it and we 1444 01:17:22.520 --> 01:17:25.840 took it back to the caravan and we tried playing 1445 01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:30.840 Case one, the Case of the Murdered Munition's Magnate March twentieth, 1446 01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:34.640 eighteen eighty eight, if I remember rightly, and for anybody 1447 01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:36.960 who has played Shurlocomb's Consulting Detection. 1448 01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:41.399 I completely I completely shagged this one as well. I 1449 01:17:41.439 --> 01:17:43.000 didn't get any of the questions right. 1450 01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:46.800 It's not an easy game, and Case one in Box 1451 01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:51.439 one is not short, there's a lot of narrative, and 1452 01:17:51.520 --> 01:17:53.560 we played it for about three and a half hours. 1453 01:17:53.920 --> 01:17:56.119 We got none of the questions right. We scored like 1454 01:17:56.199 --> 01:17:58.560 minus one hundred and forty five points because we went 1455 01:17:58.600 --> 01:18:01.520 to forty low CA and we couldn't work out. I mean, 1456 01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:05.159 I was thirteen, and you know my parents were not 1457 01:18:05.319 --> 01:18:08.399 really into that kind of thing, but that was my 1458 01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:12.159 first ever experience with that game. Now, I absolutely love 1459 01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:15.960 Shulla Comes Consulting Detective because it's such a different game. 1460 01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:19.600 It's a precursor to any kind of escape room games 1461 01:18:19.640 --> 01:18:22.119 or puzzle games, and it's not a puzzle game as such, 1462 01:18:22.479 --> 01:18:27.560 but it is a narrative driven puzzle that you've got 1463 01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:29.159 to solve. In terms off, you get all of these 1464 01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:31.600 different clues in the narrative, and some of the clues 1465 01:18:31.640 --> 01:18:34.039 are very subtle. You know, you'll get some kind of 1466 01:18:34.079 --> 01:18:37.119 you'll go to a pub and there'll be some bit 1467 01:18:37.159 --> 01:18:40.159 of what you think is flavor text about somebody at 1468 01:18:40.159 --> 01:18:43.760 the bar wearing a black hat and wearing green shoes 1469 01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:46.640 or whatever, and you'll just dismiss it as a piece 1470 01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:50.840 of insignificant text. And then later on you'll be investigating 1471 01:18:50.880 --> 01:18:53.520 the body at the hospital or something like that, and 1472 01:18:53.560 --> 01:18:55.159 you'll say, oh, yeah, there was a piece of green 1473 01:18:55.239 --> 01:18:57.880 fabric found in and oh green fabric. Ah, didn't you 1474 01:18:57.920 --> 01:19:00.279 have green ah? And you'll start to piece all of 1475 01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:02.720 this together. And one of the great things with Sherlock 1476 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:06.000 Comes Consulting Deteated is you don't get told when the 1477 01:19:06.039 --> 01:19:08.560 game ends. You don't get a piece of narrative that says, 1478 01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:12.079 well done, You've solved the case. You literally keep playing it, 1479 01:19:12.119 -->

01:19:14.239 going too all of these locations and reading more and 1480 01:19:14.239 --> 01:19:17.840 more until you think you've got enough information to answer 1481 01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:20.079 the questions, which you don't know what the questions are 1482 01:19:20.119 --> 01:19:22.720 going to be. So then you say, right, I think 1483 01:19:22.720 --> 01:19:25.880 we're done. Then you open the question book and it 1484 01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:28.359 says who murdered such and such a person? And you go, right, 1485 01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:29.760 I think it was him, and you write it down 1486 01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:32.520 and then it says, and what was the significance of 1487 01:19:32.560 --> 01:19:35.760 the cigar found at twelve Beach Street? And you're like, 1488 01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:40.600 what what cigar? We didn't go to twelve Beach Street. 1489 01:19:40.600 --> 01:19:43.720 Oh maybe we should have gone. Oh yeah. So you 1490 01:19:43.880 --> 01:19:46.560 then answer the questions only when you finish the game, 1491 01:19:46.880 --> 01:19:48.319 and then you get rated on how many of the 1492 01:19:48.359 --> 01:19:52.880 questions you've got right. It's a fantastic experience and absolutely 1493 01:19:53.000 --> 01:19:58.359 love it. And then years and years later is Starry Games. 1494 01:19:58.760 --> 01:20:01.720 A French publisher got the rights to redo it because 1495 01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:04.760 Sulo Combs is big in France. It's a very popular thing. 1496 01:20:05.159 --> 01:20:10.520 So Istarigames republished the game Sulla Comb's Consulting Detective in 1497 01:20:10.560 --> 01:20:13.439 an in a box and made a complete mess of it. 1498 01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:16.960 It was a bit of a disaster for a few reasons. 1499 01:20:17.680 --> 01:20:21.720 Part of the reason was huge amounts of typos and 1500 01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:24.800 errors all through all of the books, and in a 1501 01:20:24.840 --> 01:20:29.760 game like this where the details are essential, it was 1502 01:20:29.800 --> 01:20:33.319 a problem. And the other problem was production issues. People 1503 01:20:33.319 --> 01:20:37.199 were getting casebooks with missing pages and there was all 1504 01:20:37.239 --> 01:20:41.319 sorts of problems. It hurt the game. It really damaged 1505 01:20:41.399 --> 01:20:42.760 the game because a lot of people bought it and 1506 01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:45.039 a lot of people just couldn't play it and struggled 1507 01:20:45.039 --> 01:20:51.119 with it. But then Istarigames disappeared and merged into Space Cowboys, 1508 01:20:51.520 --> 01:20:53.399 and in fact all of the people who worked for 1509 01:20:53.479 --> 01:20:59.680 Istarigames moved across to Space Cowboys. Space Cowboys were a 1510 01:20:59.720 --> 01:21:02.520 client of mine because I'd done some work with them 1511 01:21:02.520 --> 01:21:07.159 on time stories, and I remember the day Space Cowboys 1512 01:21:07.159 --> 01:21:10.720 contacted me and says, Paul, you've done some editing work 1513 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:13.399 for us. We'd like you to do some more editing work. 1514 01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:16.399 We are going to be redoing a new version of 1515 01:21:16.439 --> 01:21:20.560 Sherlock Comb's Consulting Detective. Are you interested. They had no 1516 01:21:20.680 --> 01:21:24.159 idea of my history with the game, and bared in 1517 01:21:24.199 --> 01:21:26.119 mind as well as that game that I played with 1518 01:21:26.159 --> 01:21:29.560 my parents in nineteen eighty three. Every gaming group that 1519 01:21:29.640 --> 01:21:31.640 I've ever been a part of I have got this 1520 01:21:31.760 --> 01:21:33.720 game out and I have run it for them. So 1521 01:21:33.800 --> 01:21:37.039 I've been running this game for multiple groups for like 1522 01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:41.159 twenty years. And then they asked me to help with 1523 01:21:41.279 --> 01:21:44.159 the new version of the game, published by Space Cowboys, 1524 01:21:44.479 --> 01:21:49.680 and I said, yes, I would absolutely love to, but please, 1525 01:21:49.800 --> 01:21:52.680 will you let me make some changes to some of 1526 01:21:52.720 --> 01:21:56.640 the original cases to fix some of the issues with them? 1527 01:21:57.039 --> 01:21:59.680 And they went what issues? And I went, here's a 1528 01:21:59.720 --> 01:22:02.600 list issues with the original cases. In case number three, 1529 01:22:03.159 --> 01:22:05.680 at this location, it says that the carriage drops him 1530 01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:07.199 off at the corner of such and such as greet 1531 01:22:07.399 --> 01:22:09.439 that's wrong. It shouldn't be that great. It should be 1532 01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:11.960 this one. We all know that. And they went, oh, 1533 01:22:12.000 --> 01:22:13.920 it sounds like you know about this game. I like, yeah, 1534 01:22:14.000 --> 01:22:16.880 I do know about this game. So they brought me 1535 01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:20.159 on as editor for the new version, which was the 1536 01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:22.920 brown box version from Space Cowboys, and they allowed me 1537 01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:25.800 to make some tweaks to the game, and they then 1538 01:22:25.840 --> 01:22:28.520 went on and did three more boxes and then unfortunately 1539 01:22:28.560 --> 01:22:31.640 that's it. The series is finished now. But yeah, I 1540 01:22:31.800 --> 01:22:33.560 was very pleased to be involved in that. 1541 01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:37.359 So one more question then, So you're heading out of 1542 01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:40.600 Devon to the cabin, and you go round a corner 1543 01:22:41.159 --> 01:22:44.600 and the back door of the car flies open. Four 1544 01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:48.000 of the games fly down one of the many ravines 1545 01:22:48.039 --> 01:22:53.079 in Devon, ravines in Devon into a into a river, 1546 01:22:53.159 --> 01:22:56.640 and I swept away to posterity. Which game do you 1547 01:22:56.800 --> 01:22:58.680 hope is on the back seat of the

car. It's 1548 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:04.079 got to be Mage Night, it has to be. Whilst 1549 01:23:04.159 --> 01:23:06.560 I do have the emotional attachment to the other ones, 1550 01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:10.960 Maje Night is the one that I will happily sit 1551 01:23:11.000 --> 01:23:13.239 there and play every day of my life on my 1552 01:23:13.359 --> 01:23:18.560 own because everybody else is dead. So if people want 1553 01:23:18.600 --> 01:23:20.560 to get hold of you, if anyone listening to this 1554 01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:23.399 hasn't isn't aware of where you are on the internet, 1555 01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:24.560 how do they go about doing that. 1556 01:23:25.039 --> 01:23:27.279 It's actually trickier than it used to be because I 1557 01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:29.600 don't have a website anymore because I got rid of that, 1558 01:23:29.960 --> 01:23:32.880 so people can leave me comments. The YouTube channel is 1559 01:23:32.920 --> 01:23:37.479 Gaming Rules Videos rather than Gaming Rules because the Gaming 1560 01:23:37.600 --> 01:23:43.319 Rules channel was already taken. It was some gambling YouTube channel, 1561 01:23:43.359 --> 01:23:45.359 so I couldn't have that one. So the YouTube channel 1562 01:23:45.399 --> 01:23:50.840 is Gaming Rules Videos. I'm also on Facebook as gaming 1563 01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.359 rules videos as well. I think it's either gaming rules 1564 01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:57.640 videos or gaming rules I'm no longer on that Twitter 1565 01:23:58.000 --> 01:24:01.079 x thing whatever. I'm on blue Sky well, but I'm 1566 01:24:01.119 --> 01:24:04.760 not actively taking part. I'm not engaging with people on 1567 01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:07.960 blue Sky. I basically have somebody who posts my stuff 1568 01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:10.119 to blue Sky, to my blue Sky account, but I'm 1569 01:24:10.159 --> 01:24:12.760 not I'm not actively on there. So the YouTube channel 1570 01:24:12.800 --> 01:24:14.880 through that is probably the best way of people gain 1571 01:24:14.920 --> 01:24:16.399 holding me or on Facebook. 1572 01:24:17.560 --> 01:24:20.840 Excellent. Well, Paul Grogan, thank you very much, Thank you 1573 01:24:20.920 --> 01:24:23.079 very much. You could support the show in many ways. 1574 01:24:23.119 --> 01:24:24.600 You can tell your friends, you can talk about it 1575 01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:26.399 on social media. You can talk about it in your 1576 01:24:26.399 --> 01:24:28.720 own blog, podcast, or video. You can support it directly 1577 01:24:28.760 --> 01:24:31.039 by going to Patreon dot com, forward slash five gfd 1578 01:24:31.119 --> 01:24:33.199 for a rolling donation or for a one off donation, 1579 01:24:33.399 --> 01:24:35.319 hitting the PayPal link at the bottom of the website 1580 01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:38.159 of five gfd dot com into these donations that keep 1581 01:24:38.159 --> 01:24:40.520 the show going. You can join the best discording Gaming 1582 01:24:40.560 --> 01:24:43.720 by going to five gfd dot com and clicking the button. Also, 1583 01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:45.560 if you want to say something nice about the show, 1584 01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:47.600 but if you want to say something horrible about the show, 1585 01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:51.560 you can contact me add five games for doomsagmail dot com, 1586 01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:54.239 and if I've succeeded in dancing away from the spitting 1587 01:24:54.319 --> 01:24:57.800 cats and the reform twats, I'll see you in two 1588 01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:02.760 weeks for another five games for Doomsday