התמלול המלא של Luke Laurie

Monopoly and your classic play on the floor 73 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.439 with your brothers and sisters. Had a big family. Everyone 74 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:28.279 would cheat and try to get an edge, and we 75 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.480 played chess in my household. We had my parents were 76 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.040 kind of educated and wanted to try to be lofty 77 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:37.399 a bit. But when I was about ten, I was 78 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:40.319 at a sleepover birthday party and I played my first 79 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:45.120 game of Dungeons and Dragons and I was hooked immediately. 80 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.879 It was no time at all before I was, you know, 81 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:52.040 saving up my allowance to get the books and start 82 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:57.519 to design adventures. And I wasn't really very good at 83 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.439 taking other people's ideas. You know, I had I had 84 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.040 the modules. Back in the day. It was all about 85 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.800 getting the modules, which was kind of like reading a 86 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.720 script and try to hope that it worked out okay. 87 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:13.240 But I couldn't do that. I had to design my 88 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:15.399 own adventures. So even when I was eleven and twelve 89 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.240 years old I was. I was the dungeon master right 90 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:21.360 in my own campaigns, and I played D and D 91 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:25.360 for about thirty years, dabbled in various board games along 92 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:29.319 the way. I recall when the kind of the Milton 93 00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:35.439 Bradley showgun came along, I call being in you know, 94 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:39.680 actual game stores in my teenage years. We didn't have 95 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.759 one where I lived, but we had when I traveled 96 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:45.040 and got to go places, I would see those things. 97 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:49.720 Magic the Gathering came along somewhere around the time I 98 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:54.839 was in college, and so I dabbled in that. Euro 99 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.720 games in the early aughts started you know, discovering those 100 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:02.319 just here and there. And then at some point we 101 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:04.399 kept not being able to get the D and D 102 00:06:04.519 --> 00:06:08.120 crew together. So I'd been a dungeon master for like 103 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.680 thirty years, and they're like, well, you know, we can't 104 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.439 play D and D, but we got these, you know, 105 00:06:12.519 --> 00:06:15.199 other people, and I've got these board games. And then 106 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.439 I remember one night we played and I learned the 107 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:22.839 same night I learned Dominion and Agricola. Wow. And I'd 108 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.439 learned a few others before that. But and I remember 109 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:30.040 San Juan, which is kind of like a derivative card 110 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:32.160 game of Puerto Rico was one of the first like 111 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:36.040 euro E games I really owned because I could play 112 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:39.920 with my kids. But yeah, Dominion and Agricola played those 113 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:43.759 one night and kind of shut down the D and 114 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:48.600 D campaign within a year and retired from having to 115 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:54.000 bear that heavy responsibility of, you know, spending hours and 116 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:58.600 hours and hours designing adventures that my players would inevitably 117 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.360 deviate from. Catch me off guard. 118 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:07.600 So I mean, fab it from me to to to 119 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.839 out your age on this podcast. But I assume you're 120 00:07:10.839 --> 00:07:13.600 a you're a person who's familiar with saiko. 121 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.720 You mean the number you need to hit exactly of zero? No, 122 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:26.279 never heard of it. But I'm I'm of the era 123 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:31.439 before that existed, where Wow, you looked at tables, you 124 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:35.639 rolled percentile dice for treasures you had to make, you know, 125 00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:39.240 a Ben Barr's lift gates and pick pockets check that 126 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:44.839 had no parallel mechanical reference to anything else in the game. 127 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.360 So you're an avid mountain biker. What's the attraction to that? 128 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:55.000 I so I like being alive. There's that. 129 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.720 I think it's massively overratedly frankly. 130 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.600 And for many years I've basketball and I was never 131 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:05.560 good at it. But I got out and spent a 132 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:07.639 lot of hours on the court, and that was kind 133 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.959 of my like my cardiovascular and my fitness, and it 134 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:13.839 balanced out the hours and hours at my computer and 135 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:19.560 the hours and hours playing tabletop games. So I got 136 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.279 to the age where I was a little worried about, 137 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.480 you know what it would be like, you know, pulling 138 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.480 a hamstring or blowing out a knee or whatever it 139 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:32.639 was going to be playing basketball, because I've watched countless 140 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.919 people my age go down and not get back up. 141 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:39.200 It happens to twenty five year olds all the time. 142 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:45.759 Yeah. So mountain biking is something that my brother, my 143 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:49.759

younger brother, got me into, but it took me years 144 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.159 to get a good bike, you know, the real, you know, 145 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:55.799 heardy hardcore mountain bike where you can take the tough 146 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:59.679 trails and so on. So once I was able to 147 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.000 do that, once I was able to, you know, get 148 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.320 a game that made me enough money to be able 149 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:07.799 to get a decent mountain bike, I hit the trails 150 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.039 every week and I love it. I love the combination 151 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.080 of being outdoors. I love being kind of you know, 152 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:18.399 sometimes I ride with friends, but I also like being 153 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:21.120 alone with my thoughts. So I like kind of being 154 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:24.919 out there in the hills. We have some beautiful natural 155 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:28.679 environments on the central coast of California. It's a year 156 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:32.080 round activity here. I can mountain bike anytime a year, 157 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:36.679 and so I ride one hundred miles a month, which 158 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:42.279 isn't a ton, but it's a very regular, paced exercise 159 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:43.519 regimen that I keep with. 160 00:09:44.759 --> 00:09:48.159 And so you've mentioned that you live in California, and 161 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:53.759 you know, there's this notion that California is magical. Is 162 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:56.120 that true? 163 00:09:55.840 --> 00:09:59.639 I love it here. It's not only just that I 164 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:04.279 love where I live. Specifically, I love that within a 165 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:09.159 few hours I can be in the incredible like Mohabi Desert, 166 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.679 I can be out at I could be sitting poolside 167 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.840 in Palm Springs, or I could be out hiking and 168 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.360 Joshua Tree, or a few hours north of there, I 169 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:22.360 could be up in the Sierra Nevada Mountains and just 170 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:31.399 like the incredible, untouched just massive granite mountains, forests, redwoods beaches. 171 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:34.759 A lot of people come to California and they experience 172 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.759 whatever Disneyland in La or they go to San Francisco 173 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:40.840 and maybe they say the bridges in Carra Delly Square, 174 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:47.639 but California. I always say there are many Californias. You 175 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:51.399 can't know California, And even in my own life, I'm 176 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:55.120 still just starting to discover some parts of California that 177 00:10:55.200 --> 00:11:00.159 I did not know. And yeah, so I do. I 178 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.200 really like living here. I know there's all this stories 179 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.919 about whatever, people fleeing California or California's too expensive or 180 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:12.039 all these other things. But I've been here the vast 181 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:16.440 majority of my life, raised my kids here, and it's 182 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:24.000 a great place of of diverse geography, whether people, it's 183 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.000 it's just it's a great place to live. 184 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.159 So from a divine location to a divine game. Your 185 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:34.279 first game is Concordia. Why is this game so special? 186 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:40.240 So Concordia designed by Matt Gyerretts. So that's a game 187 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:44.399 that I would take to the doomsday cabin because of 188 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:50.799 its elegant It's simple in terms of how you play, 189 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:57.159 and it's complex in terms of what evolves. So it's 190 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:03.320 it's a design that I admire immensely, and I keep 191 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.279 waiting for the chance to get to tell this directly 192 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.320 to Mac. So it's like we keep crossing paths. In fact, 193 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.399 he was literally doing like a press thing across the 194 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:15.799 aisle from me at essen, and I never got over 195 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:16.399 there while he. 196 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:21.639 Was there, wasn't Plag's booth, Like, yeah, I could have. 197 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.399 Yeah, they were right over there, and I we didn't 198 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:27.559 cross paths. So so Mac, if you're out there, you know, 199 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:31.600 we gotta we gotta gotta cross paths. So uh yeah. 200 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:36.120 Mac Garrett's designs tend to have like a simple turn sequence, 201 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:42.759 and Concordi in particular is basically play one card. That's it. 202 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:48.440 That's that's the whole design. It's extension. It's even simpler 203 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:50.600 than all of these. There's all of these kind of 204 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:53.639 like dual and battle games where it's play one card 205 00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:57.120 and either use it for its value or use it 206 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.440 for its effect. It's even simpler than that. It's you 207 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:04.039 always use it for its effect. So you play the 208 00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:07.879 card and you carry out what the card says. And 209 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:12.159 in my dream, I'm designing a game that can pull 210 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:16.039 that off that's at least as interesting without not being 211 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.600 a direct copy, because I greatly admire Concordia. 212 00:13:21.519 --> 00:13:26.799 So you're a designer. I'm not. I'm just some idiot 213 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.919 who dances around at the edge

of the industry. 214 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:31.679 How well you said it, not me, But. 215 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:40.159 How does he do it? It seems it seems almost absurd. 216 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.080 You play a card and do what it says, and 217 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:48.279 yet out of this blooms this astonishing experience. 218 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:53.240 Yeah, it's almost like, I don't know. Within each of us, 219 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:57.720 there are multitudes. In this case, it's the interactions between 220 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:03.320 the effects that creates the magic and the overall kind 221 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:07.279 of flow of Concordia is something that parallels the flow 222 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.279 of all of my major designs after my first design, 223 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.720 which is this idea that there are no rounds, there's 224 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:19.440 no changing urn order. And while I play and I 225 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.360 love a lot of games that include those things, I 226 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:26.960 feel like those are clunky mechanisms. Changing turn order is clunky. 227 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:30.720 Having a round where you got to stop and reset 228 00:14:30.759 --> 00:14:35.879 all this stuff is clunky. The idea where the game 229 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:40.240 continues to flow and it kind of resets itself as 230 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:44.080 it goes that there is an incentive for the players 231 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.639 to take the actions that are going to kind of 232 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.919 refresh this or that as the game goes on. That's 233 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.120 magic because you're never taken out of the experience of 234 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.720 playing the game. You play, you play, you play, and 235 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.480 as you go you follow along a path that has 236 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:04.480 an arc, and so there's a sense of growth, growth, growth, growth, 237 00:15:04.600 --> 00:15:08.679 and then kind of this eclipsing moment. And when you 238 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:12.240 have a game that has that more times throughout the game, 239 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:14.720 you always feel like you're on your way to that 240 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:18.759 next big moment where you experience that that excitement of 241 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.759 you know, getting flooded with resources or being able to 242 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.440 put out a bunch of your tokens or houses or 243 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:29.639 people or whatever it may be. And CONCORDI hits that 244 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.600 that sweet spot and I tempt to do that in 245 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:33.279 my designs. 246 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.120 So I want to move on there and talk about 247 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.559 your form of profession, which was teaching. So what exactly 248 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:42.600 did you teach? 249 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.639 So I was a junior high as we call it, 250 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:52.519 where I was in junior high science teacher in Santa Maria, California. 251 00:15:54.320 --> 00:16:00.440 My role was really to help kids cope with an 252 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:06.000 ever complex world and cope with that interim stage between 253 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:11.519 childhood and adulthood. Along the way, there's science involved, and 254 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:17.720 that was definitely tertiary to my role. My passion involved 255 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:25.360 giving my students opportunities to discover potential careers in science, mathematics, 256 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:30.000 and engineering. And for over two decades I was involved 257 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:34.360 in programs that brought robotics into my students' lives and 258 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:41.159 pre engineering experiences. The community in which I taught this 259 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:43.200 is actually the community in which I live, is the 260 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:48.480 West side of Santa Maria, and to describe it, it's 261 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:50.600 hard to describe it in a way that's not disparaging, 262 00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:54.320 because I love being here. This is my place. My 263 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:58.799 students are almost one hundred percent of Mexican American origin 264 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:03.960 or direct immigrant students. And in fact, every morning, my 265 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.359 first class of the day was my newcomers class. So 266 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.000 these are non English speakers that I would teach every morning, 267 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.400 and I'd be teaching them, you know, chemistry and physics 268 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.640 and robotics and how to use computers. In some cases 269 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.400 students who had come from parts of Mexico where they 270 00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:27.799 literally shot iguanas with bows and arrows to make gado 271 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:30.519 the iguana, which is a soup that you make out 272 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:36.240 of reptiles. I loved my students, I loved my work. 273 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.640 I had a great passion for, you know what I 274 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:44.680 could pass on to my students, and I appreciated the 275 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:50.160 idea that we were kind of at the bridge between 276 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.839 multiple cultures. Like I like that bridge. I like being 277 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.920 this place where it's like I want to I want 278 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:00.839 to show them the best parts of like American culture 279 00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:08.119 without without destroying and what's the word disillusioning people for 280 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:12.480 the dreams that they could seek. So yeah, and I 281 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:18.240 had countless students become engineers, become teachers, become professionals in 282 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.960 all

sense of the word. And then I get to 283 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:23.400 I get to live in the same community where a 284 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.000 lot of my students stay, and as adults, I run 285 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.519 into them, and that's probably one of the most we're 286 00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:34.359 rewarding things about the decades I spent as a teacher, 287 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.599 which was almost three decades I spent as a teacher, 288 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:45.279 And Yeah, I gave to my community. I gave to civilization, 289 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.039 and I like to feel that there's some degree of 290 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:54.160 that in making games. It's a slightly more selfish pursuit, 291 00:18:54.279 --> 00:18:56.759 and that this is what I have the strongest passion for. 292 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.599 But when I get to meet and encounter the people 293 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.599 who are fans of my games, I know that I 294 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.400 created something that added value to their lives. 295 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.359 So I occasionally speak to American friends who are in 296 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.039 the teaching profession or have left the teaching profession, and 297 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:19.839 I hear horror stories and to someone from Europe, the 298 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.599 idea that you have to spend your own money on 299 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.079 materials for class and stuff is it's frankly bloody absurd. 300 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.720 What is the reality of teaching in the American school system? 301 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:34.640 Is it kind of as horrific as I'm led to believe, 302 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.759 with metal detectors on the doors of the schools and 303 00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:38.400 all of that sort of stuff. 304 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:45.559 It's worse every horror story you could imagine I have lived, 305 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:53.720 and I have lived ones you probably can't imagine. There 306 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:59.440 are there are bizarre ways in which so the United 307 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.759 States have course has never come to grips with how 308 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:08.160 its economy truly functions and the relationship between what social 309 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:14.960 services should provide, what should be those inalienable rights of 310 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.839 what it means to be a citizen or even a 311 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:24.119 resident of a nation and human dignity is something that 312 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.480 you can't put a price on, and yet it's something 313 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:34.440 that we seem unwilling to pay for sometimes. So, yes, 314 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.359 you know, we have experiences in our public schools where 315 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.640 you know, there's just not even enough bathrooms for the employees. 316 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:51.039 There are situations where people live in absolute destitute poverty, 317 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:58.839 and yet they provide absolutely critical services to children. There's 318 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:01.519 all kinds of things that don't make any sense. And 319 00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:06.680 we also are in a social environment that's changing so 320 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.599 rapidly that our practices don't always keep up. And then 321 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:17.039 in our effort to be or attempt to be enlightened, 322 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:22.119 sometimes people they miss the mark. So I've been in 323 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:28.680 a school where we experienced several years of extreme violence, 324 00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:33.680 like levels of violence. You would just be like that school, 325 00:21:34.119 --> 00:21:36.960 like if you saw the violence, and people did see 326 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.039 the violence because it was on social media, if you 327 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.559 saw the violence, you would be like, how is that 328 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:46.359 school still open? You know, why are the police not 329 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:55.279 there at that point? And so, yes, schools can be 330 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:01.880 at this level where, yeah, why would you stay? And 331 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:05.200 a lot of people stay because of their passion and 332 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:09.799 their sense of duty to protect children, because this is 333 00:22:10.039 --> 00:22:14.079 what they always wanted, and because it's also aspirational. We 334 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:17.559 always have the sense that whatever is going on today 335 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.720 couldn't possibly continue tomorrow and also couldn't possibly get worse. 336 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.759 I was fortunate that after a few rough years post 337 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:32.640 COVID at my school, and after some very strong activism 338 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.599 by colleagues that I worked with, we were able to 339 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.519 turn our school around. We were able to replace some 340 00:22:38.599 --> 00:22:42.559 of the leadership. We were able to change direction, and 341 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.119 we were able to create again that warm, comforting and 342 00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:49.480 safe school environment. And so my last year of teaching 343 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.359 was really positive. And as I continue to stay in 344 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:58.759 touch with my colleagues, things are going well. The challenge 345 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:04.559 is it was temporary. The next movement, the next fire, 346 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.640 the next you know, kind of like social media trend. 347 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.960 Anything can start a fire that will be difficult to put. 348 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:18.880 Out and so on. Lave and why did you leave teaching? 349 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.240 I love teaching because Peter Vaughan talked me into it. 350

00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.960 The reality is I'd been teaching for three decades and 351 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:36.680 I I was very passionate as a teacher, even right 352 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.039 up to my very last day, but I'd become more 353 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:43.559 passionate about the creative pursuits that I wanted to do 354 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:48.079 with game design. I really really wanted to have more 355 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:50.960 of my time to be able to work on games 356 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:56.480 and to be immersed in games. And I'd been teaching 357 00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.119 long enough for my best years as a teacher were 358 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:04.559 behind me. I did it. When I was a teacher. 359 00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:09.680 I was somebody who pursued you know, awards, recognition, but also, 360 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:13.160 like I wrote, all these grants, I ran these programs. 361 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:16.799 It was it was more than just running the classroom. 362 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.640 It was being kind of a shaper and influencer in 363 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.759 the field. But I'd also been doing it long enough 364 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:27.039 that the things that I'd shaped and the things that 365 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:32.240 I had influenced had been forgotten. It was there's the 366 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.640 sun was setting on my style and my approaches. I 367 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:42.039 mean literally I got computers into my classroom in nineteen 368 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.640 ninety nine, Like it was like it was so incredible. 369 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:49.880 We were doing robotics. I had my students designing HTML 370 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:54.680 web pages. Wow, back in the day. And now it's like, 371 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.599 well baseline as you had the kid a computer before 372 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:03.039 you even take attendance, And yeah, the technologies in the 373 00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:07.440 schools and it's almost the opposite. The technology isn't like 374 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.920 the innovation. The technology isn't the here's what we're going 375 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.759 to create and do something new and novel and experiential. 376 00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.759 The technology is a way to kind of shut down 377 00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:24.920 thought and to kind of escape from creativity at this point, so, yeah, 378 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:28.799 my days as a teacher, my shining moment as a 379 00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:35.759 teacher were eclipsing and my moment as a designer. You 380 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:43.440 described me in your intro as a rising star. I 381 00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:46.640 like to think that my best work is ahead of me. 382 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:49.400 As a designer, I like to think that I have 383 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:55.759 something to contribute as a developer of games. And I 384 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:58.400 got the opportunity to go to work as a developer 385 00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:03.559 for Cardboard Alchemy. So Brad Brooks and Peter Vaughan, co 386 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:09.079 owners and founders of Cardboard Alchemy, offered me a position 387 00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:13.039 as a developer. I did development work on flamed Craft Duels, 388 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:18.000 which is hitting the market right now. It's shipping from 389 00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:22.119 its Kickstarter campaign and its tremendous hit. It's going to 390 00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.319 be a tremendous hit. And I'm working on a game 391 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:30.440 called Whisper Would for Cardboard Alchemy. Meanwhile, I am doing 392 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.000 design work in a variety of different ways, and I'm 393 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.640 getting to kind of freely collaborate with my colleagues, and 394 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:44.440 all of this is it's inspiring. It's really I don't 395 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.720 have any barriers now to getting together with my colleagues, 396 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.119 to learning from my colleagues, to working on games, to 397 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:56.000 encountering games. I do get more time to play games, 398 00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:57.799 but I still need to figure out how to how 399 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:00.200 to get more of that too. That's the one of 400 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.039 the hardest parts still, but I get to get to 401 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.839 the events, and so that's been the real big change. 402 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.759 My last year of teaching, I did make more exceptions. 403 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.720 I did get out to packs unplugged, I did get 404 00:27:13.720 --> 00:27:18.359 out to Essen for the very first time. And so 405 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.799 now I'll be able to attend events all throughout the 406 00:27:21.880 --> 00:27:26.559 year and interact with my colleagues, network work on designs, 407 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:31.039 and all of that is it's a big life change 408 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.400 for me that would not be possible in the United 409 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.880 States of America if my wife was still not a teacher. 410 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:41.359 So my wife is carrying the health insurance and the 411 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.559 benefits and the adult part of what it is like 412 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:50.359 to live in a capitalist economy. And we're able to 413 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:53.920 do this thing. And I was close enough to my 414 00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:58.480 retirement that I will I'll be okay for the next 415 00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.200 several years. And that's that's what's going to allow me 416 00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:02.079 to do games. 417 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:07.240 So your next game then is dominion. And at the 418 00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.599 moment on my show, I'm running a we're doing a 419 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.400 poll on the discord

to find out what the game 420 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:17.079 of this current century is. And I'm writing a book 421 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.839 at the moment, and I've written a chapter on dominion, 422 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:22.920 and I'm coming round to thinking that possibly Dominion might 423 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:26.799 be one of the most important game designs of this century. 424 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:28.920 Am I overegging the pudding? 425 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.359 You know what, I've never heard anyone say that, But 426 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.880 that's not the first thing that's come out of your 427 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:40.519 mouth that I've never heard anyone step. But yeah, that pudding. 428 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:44.359 I don't know if you can overegg it with Dominion, 429 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:52.279 because Dominion is an incredible design because it takes one 430 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:56.160 of the key parts that people loved about collectible card 431 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.039 games and translated it over to like more I don't know, 432 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:09.279 elite group of hobbyist game design, and now you have 433 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:14.000 a game that has so many iterations, there's been so 434 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:18.119 many expansions, and it is one of the most replayable 435 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:23.799 games of all time. And for me, I chose this 436 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.960 game because it's one of my son's favorite games, and 437 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.640 so if I were to name games that are some 438 00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.200 of his favorites. And by the way, my son was 439 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:37.400 absolutely instrumental in helping CO, I should say CO design 440 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.920 Andromeda's Edge, but then also he was a key playtester 441 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:46.319 and advised me on pretty much every one of my designs. 442 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:53.519 Cryo Whistle Mountain, Dwellings of Elderville but Dominion, you sit down, 443 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:57.279 everybody knows the rules, Like the rules are so basic, 444 00:29:57.400 --> 00:30:01.279 they're so easy. You look at the cards and every 445 00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:04.200 time you play, got this different combination of cards, and 446 00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:06.920 you don't know what's going to win, and you make 447 00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:12.799 this prediction of different you know, cards and optimizations that 448 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.720 might come about. But it's also a game where the 449 00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:24.359 most like fundamental of strategies can be competitive. So my daughter, 450 00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:27.079 when she's like six and seven years old, it's just 451 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:32.640 like I buy a silver, I buy a silver, I 452 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:39.680 buy a gold, I get a province. My daughter won 453 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.279 several games while we were trying to do the like 454 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.480 ultimate combos, multiple actions and all this stuff. So there's 455 00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:54.240 this cool level playing field with Dominion where you don't 456 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:57.839 have to go the most complex path to win the game. 457 00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:00.759 You have to look at the value and you have 458 00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:05.400 to look at the benefit. And so I love that 459 00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:09.960 it's it's accessible. I love that it's highly replayable. And 460 00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:14.039 in my vision of this, you know apocalypse where I'm 461 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.680 going to a cabin and I got to survive, my 462 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.519 kids are there and we're playing Dominion. 463 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:25.920 So I interviewed Donald X. Facorino and he said something 464 00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.599 that I'll never forget, which was I designed games as 465 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:32.039 a hobby and I cashed Dominion Royalty checks as a job. 466 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:38.400 Is that the dream of every designer, you think, to 467 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:42.319 have a game that's such an evergreen that you don't 468 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.039 really have to think about the success of future designs. 469 00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:50.519 I don't know if I want that, actually, like I 470 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:53.680 would love to have. The hardest thing I do in 471 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:57.079 my day is like go to the bank and cash 472 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:01.200 a check and literally we don't know and does that anymore? 473 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:05.640 It like what where does money come from? Oh? Yeah, 474 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:13.960 it's just like it pops up right. I've strongly believed 475 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.000 for many years that I think the best games are 476 00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:19.839 yet to be made, and that became our slogan for 477 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:25.640 the League of Game Makers. It's fascinating because time and 478 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.240 time again, I'm reminded as I go to events and 479 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.119 I meet and I interact with people that you know, 480 00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:36.279 the League of Game Makers was a blog that several 481 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:42.200 game designers and publishers self publishers came together. We wrote blogs. 482 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.400 You know, this has got to be like now, thirteen 483 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.559 fourteen years ago. This back when we started, I was 484 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:50.440 writing for the League before I even had a published game. 485 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:55.440 I think, and we wrote on all kinds of topics 486 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:02.160 thirteen and fourteen years ago, maybe twelve, and we had 487 00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:07.079 an impact on basically spreading this knowledge, and that was 488 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:14.279

valuable to spread that knowledge. So oh, I lost where 489 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:15.640 we started? Where do we start here? 490 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:20.240 We're talking about having an evergreen that a game that. 491 00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:24.680 Just and we're talking about dominion, and we're talking about 492 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:31.279 replayability and so anyway, this this idea that you could 493 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:35.440 that you could reach this pinnacle of game design, I 494 00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:40.519 don't think that exists. So we made the theme for 495 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.079 the League of Game Makers the best games are yet 496 00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.079 to be made. And sure enough, you know, in the 497 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:47.759 decade since we did the league, there's all kinds of 498 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:50.759 games that I think are they're better than what we 499 00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.799 used before. Now now some people would argue me and 500 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:57.079 like you've got your like your old classic games, and 501 00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:59.799 some people might say, well, you could never improve on this, 502 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:04.160 where you could never improve on that. But even like 503 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.920 almost every older game I go back to, there's like 504 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:12.320 nuggets of genius and then there's also moments of frustration 505 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:16.800 and it's like, wow, this is really a great game. 506 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.039 You know. Too bad Ben got eliminated in the second 507 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:22.280 round and he has to go like, you know, I 508 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:23.920 don't know what Ben's going to do for the next 509 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:31.119 three rounds because he's out or or this is a 510 00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:35.559 game where the decision, the first decision you make, possibly 511 00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:40.159 determines the outcome of the game. So we've gotten I think, 512 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.800 smarter about what to include and also how to make 513 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.960 games more accessible and inclusive of everybody at the table 514 00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:52.760 the whole time the game is going on. We have 515 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:56.079 you know, we have tight and frustrating games too. But 516 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.599 I think that taking the innovations, new innovations and building 517 00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:03.559 on them is kind of the nature of what came 518 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:09.000 design does, and Dominion's able to has been able to 519 00:35:09.079 --> 00:35:13.440 kind of grow and expand. And now you have all 520 00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:15.920 these different card possibilities, and you might have some you 521 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.840 don't like, and you got all these different options, but 522 00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:22.000 you know, you can take or leave any

given card combination. 523 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.079 But every time you sit down, you can have, you know, 524 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:29.800 hopefully a new unique experience that's highly interactive or at 525 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.880 least interactive in a way where everybody has a chance. 526 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.320 So I want to get more into your design now. 527 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.320 So when did you realize that you have talent for 528 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:41.480 designing games? 529 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:46.920 So I started designing games before I had talent, and 530 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:52.280 that's true of almost anything I have pursued. So I'm 531 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:57.159 that kind of person who makes things. I always have 532 00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:02.920 been someone who made things, and any given like pursuit, 533 00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.880 whether it was by necessity or desire, I wanted to 534 00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.360 figure out how that thing worked and how I could 535 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.559 do it myself. So I'm sitting here in an office 536 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.679 that I built. I did the word work in this office. 537 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:22.960 I did the wiring and electrical in this office. I 538 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:27.559 did the you know, the painting, the plaster, the dry wall, 539 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:32.639 et cetera. I didn't do the carpet, put in the lights, 540 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:36.320 et cetera. But ten years ago I did know how 541 00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:41.320 to do that. I built my bathroom, I did the tile, 542 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:47.719 I did some of the plumbing, built countertops. Three years ago. 543 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:49.760 Five years ago, I didn't know how to do any 544 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:53.760 of that. So I've always been the kind of person 545 00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.079 who liked to make things. I was a Lego kid, 546 00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:59.760 like totally the lego kid. And you remember back in 547 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.760 the day when you had to figure out technology, like 548 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.440 I had to literally climb on the roof and like 549 00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:12.199 move the antenna to get the right channels, the unhooking, 550 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.719 and you know, disconnecting all of the devices. You know, 551 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.360 we had a VCR, you know, eventually like a CD 552 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:23.239 DVD player came along. We had a stereo and et cetera. Madness. 553 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.599 Then okay, now we got Wi Fi. Got to figure 554 00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:33.440 that out. As a teacher, you inevitably are you have 555 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:37.880 at your disposal antiquated technology, and none of it is 556 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.639 designed to work together. So like my very first days 557 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:43.360 in my classroom was trying to figure out how to

558 00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:47.079 do cool stuff with things that you know, basically I 559 00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:49.360 didn't have the right stuff. I had to build and 560 00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:53.000 make and adapt things to make it work. I literally 561 00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:55.840 went down to the library and I got a turntable 562 00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.079 so that I could have music in my classroom, and 563 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.320 I had my LP Ease stacked over there. This is 564 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:05.400 in nineteen ninety seven, and I had to have my 565 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.719 record player to have music in my classroom. And I 566 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.400 did that. So when I got into Euroboard games, I 567 00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:18.599 was immediately intrigued not just by how they played, but 568 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.519 what it would take to make them. And so it 569 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:29.199 was somewhere around twenty twelve or so I put together 570 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.679 a game called Age of Prophecy. Of course it's called 571 00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:37.000 Age of Prophecy to this day, there's no game called 572 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:39.519 Age of Prophecy, and I'm sure nobody takes it because 573 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.440 at some point I got to make that game right, 574 00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.360 and it was a work replacement game. I wasn't even 575 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.280 quite sure what work replacement was at that point. I 576 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.920 got barely played any work replacement games. And the workers 577 00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:55.440 would become different kinds of like you put it over here, 578 00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:57.559 and it's a ship, you put it over here, and 579 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.480 it's a warrior you put it over here, and farmer. 580 00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:07.159 It had different seasons that were like the events. You 581 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.599 go through the phases, and then the seasons would occur, 582 00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:15.199 and the seasons consisted of here's what happens with war 583 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.480 and violence, Here's what happens with your crops and your 584 00:39:21.320 --> 00:39:26.960 your agriculture production, Here's what happens with your trade, and 585 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.800 what's good with buying and selling. And so I built, 586 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.400 like right away a heavy euro Like my very first 587 00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:38.559 design was kind of a medium heavy Euro. It wasn't 588 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:41.960 it never became like a finished design, but I took 589 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:44.280 pieces of that and went from there. It wasn't long 590 00:39:44.360 --> 00:39:47.519 before I had a smaller design called Stones of Fate. 591 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:49.199 I had a friend and we wanted to be a 592 00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:55.039 self publisher, and so that was the company Cosmic

Wombat Games, 593 00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:57.920 and so they published my first design, which was called 594 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:01.440 Stones of Fate, which was kind of a memory area 595 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:07.679 strategy game that was used tarot cards. And then in 596 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.920 no time and all I had built what became the 597 00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:15.480 Manhattan Project Energy Empire. And there's a whole lot of 598 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:21.199 luck and basically taking advantage of the situations I got 599 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.480 in with who I met very early on. I met 600 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:28.960 Peter Vaughan and we formed the League of Game Makers. 601 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:31.719 Brad Brooks and Christian Strain were also part of that, 602 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:36.800 and all of us are in Cardboard Alchemy. I met 603 00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:43.000 Aldo Giazzi and he was distributing games for Minion Games, 604 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.280 who made the Manhattan Project, and he's like, hey, you 605 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.760 know he played a game I had made, which was 606 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:53.519 called Drill, Baby Drill, and we played that game and 607 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:55.199 he said, hey, this could be a this could be 608 00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:59.639 a sequel in the Manhattan Project line. And within a 609 00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:02.119 year we were on that path and that became the 610 00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:07.119 Manhattan Project Energy Empire. I was also lucky that other 611 00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.119 designers live in my area, and so I got to 612 00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:13.559 learn and interact with several other designers. The principle of 613 00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:18.719 which was Tom Jolly, and Tom Jolly was a legend 614 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:23.639 in game design, and you know his designs such as 615 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.400 wiz War. You know, these are kind of the these 616 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:28.800 are kind of the games that Fantasy Flight Games was 617 00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:33.960 built on, these old school games. And Steve Jackson, i 618 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:36.480 think published also a version of wiz War at some point. 619 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:41.400 So Tom Jolly taught me some things about you know, 620 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:43.920 getting my games published helped open some doors. And we 621 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:48.880 co designed two games together, the Manhattan Project Energy Empire. 622 00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:50.800 He came on late on that game and helped me 623 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:54.440 hit the finish line. And then Cryo Will we built 624 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.199 together after that, and we got signed with Fantasy Flight, 625 00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.039 which went to wind Writer, which went to z Man 626 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:04.880 and it's an asthma D game and by now it's 627 00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:09.800 sells like one copy a year. But to this day 628 00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:12.639 I've run into people where like cry oh Man, that's 629 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:17.599 my favorite gaming designed, which is fun. So I'm fortunate 630 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:22.519 that no publisher has really messed up the game itself 631 00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:26.000 in terms of like they didn't mess up the mechanics, 632 00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.679 they didn't mess up the art. So all my games 633 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:31.840 they look good, they play well. They haven't all been 634 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.840 marketed to the extent that they could be, they haven't 635 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:37.800 all hit the market. So like you go into store 636 00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:40.239 and generally you're not going to find very many of 637 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.239 my products, You're not going to find very many of 638 00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.840 my games, and that becomes you know, that's that's been 639 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:48.719 a struggle for me. But in terms of like taking 640 00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:51.559 care of the game itself and doing it well, I've 641 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:52.360 had very good luck. 642 00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:58.440 So can you give me and the listeners an insight? 643 00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:00.840 What is a Luke Glory game? 644 00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:04.719 M So that's funny because you know, I have a 645 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:06.840 lot of fans who say, like, oh, yeah, that's a 646 00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:08.880 Luke Glory game, that's a Luke Glory design, that's a 647 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:13.039 Luke Glory thing. If I were to describe it, I 648 00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:18.480 would say that a Luke Glory game is one where 649 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:23.599 you have interesting choices. Most of my major games are 650 00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:27.320 worker placement, though there's a whole lot of designs I've 651 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.039 made that I didn't get published or didn't pursue along 652 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:33.039 the lines that are not work replacement. I like a 653 00:43:33.079 --> 00:43:37.119 continuous flow. I like low down time. I like the 654 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:39.920 idea that I'm going to make a decision, it's going 655 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.480 to be significant decision, and that the decision is potentially 656 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:48.719 going to impact a whole lot of different things. I 657 00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:52.840 like the smooth flow and the sense that you will 658 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:58.440 have escalations or kind of like a build up to 659 00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:01.760 a big turn where you'll be to capitalize on or 660 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:05.599 get rewarded for the past things that you've done and 661 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:12.960 the circumstances in which you currently exist. So I want 662 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:18.360 a game that is easy to understand, that has a 663 00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:24.440 simple

action selection mechanism by which you can have a 664 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:30.639 whole diverse breadth of emergent opportunities through the course of 665 00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:35.559 the game. I like a medium level of interaction. I 666 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:38.800 like a level of interaction where players absolutely know they're 667 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:44.079 playing against each other, and yet they are not completely 668 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:49.039 destroying one another's opportunities. I know that that can hit 669 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:52.880 limits at high player counts, but I know that in 670 00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:56.320 medium player counts, I like there to be the sense that, yeah, 671 00:44:56.360 --> 00:45:00.760 we're fighting for space, we're racing to get this or that, 672 00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:05.519 but everybody has a chance. And also, you took the 673 00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:08.079 thing that I wanted, and when you took it, the 674 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.960 thing that I wanted even more got revealed, so that 675 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.679 I want that ability to pivot. I want that tactical 676 00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:20.920 play where new discoveries are new and exciting discoveries during 677 00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:24.760 the course of the game create new opportunities for choice. 678 00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:30.480 So in a nutshell, what's a Lukelori game? I struggle 679 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:34.519 to say anything in a nutshell, but that's more or 680 00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:35.039 less it. 681 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:40.239 So your next game then is Star Wars Rebellion. How 682 00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:42.639 well does this capture Star Wars? 683 00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:48.239 Oh Man, Star Wars? It can be. Rebellion can be 684 00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:52.800 a slog sometimes because you've got this planning mechanism where 685 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:56.039 you're planning out all of the actions that you will take. 686 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.400 You're planning who's going to go to these different parts 687 00:46:00.440 --> 00:46:03.960 of space or be in charge of that different mission, 688 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:07.840 and so you have this, you have this kind of 689 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:16.199 like hidden bluffing game with your opponent, and I enjoy that, 690 00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.039 like I enjoy that tension. Tension is something that I 691 00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:23.960 also value as part of my games too. In my games, 692 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.000 it's usually what we consider to be an external threat 693 00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:32.280 and then some degree of direct impact with other players, 694 00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:36.920 like you know, Battle and Dwellings and Andromeda's Edge. But 695 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:41.480 the external threat is this idea that we always kind 696 00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:44.159 of got to be on the lookout for something. You know, 697 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:48.519 white Walkers might be coming down to the wall and 698 00:46:48.599 --> 00:46:50.639 Winter is coming. We got to be ready for that. 699 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:56.920 Star Wars Rebellion is much more that the threat is 700 00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:00.000 the unknown threat of what your opponent might pull off, 701 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.239 and it is a it's a really great interaction game 702 00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:09.440 where you're playing with someone who is equally competitive, but 703 00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:12.159 they're also okay losing, Like they're okay with this idea 704 00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:14.440 that we're gonna we're gonna have this duel. What of 705 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:16.960 us is gonna lose. We're not gonna be sore losers 706 00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:21.199 about it. We're gonna respect the other person's amazing skill. 707 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:26.760 But Star Wars Rebellion does something magical thematically, and it 708 00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:31.039 lets you take a universe that I at least have 709 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:34.320 all kinds of associations with, and it lets you tell 710 00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:38.559 news stories in that same universe. So you can play 711 00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:41.440 a game of Star Wars Rebellion and it can be 712 00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:45.480 that game where it's not Princess Leah that gets captured, 713 00:47:45.639 --> 00:47:50.039 you know, it's obi one that gets captured, and it's 714 00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:54.119 it's Princess Leah that destroys the Death Star. You know. 715 00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:56.719 It's like you can just you can mix it up 716 00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:59.880 in these ways where you just are completely retelling this 717 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:04.400 story with familiar characters in new ways, And I find 718 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:10.159 that that's just like particularly compelling because the that ip 719 00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:14.599 is so vivid. The stories of Star Wars are so 720 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:18.320 vivid that retelling them in different ways comes kind of naturally. 721 00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:21.679 You go to those worlds, you imagine those characters, you 722 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.920 laugh as certain you know events transpire. 723 00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:31.400 And so you know, you clearly have an affection for 724 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:35.920 the game, but also for the for the franchise itself. 725 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.320 And you're a positive guy with a positive frame of mind. 726 00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:45.320 Are you done with Star Wars? Has it been completely ruined? 727 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.639 Or are you someone who still holds a torch for it? 728 00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:52.840 So? Are you asking if there is a new hope? 729 00:48:53.559 --> 00:48:59.159 Or well, indeed, so and Or is one of the 730 00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:04.400 best Star Wars stories of all time. And it's new ish, right. 731 00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:06.440 You know, we

just saw season two of van Or 732 00:49:06.599 --> 00:49:08.840 last year and it's a masterpiece. 733 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:12.800 It could it be said to be the loan peanut 734 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:13.679 in the turds though. 735 00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:20.800 So here's here's where I am. All of us need 736 00:49:20.840 --> 00:49:26.440 to be mindful of whether our work is innovative and interesting. 737 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.559 And I respect someone who has an eye. You got 738 00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.320 an ip so good that you actually can do a 739 00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:38.159 cash grab. You know, that's impressive, right, So yeah, there 740 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.760 have absolutely been this kind of like cash grab mentality 741 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:46.199 with what Disney has been doing with Marvel and Star Wars. 742 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:50.440 And I probably have to be careful about what I say, 743 00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:53.159 or I could de que myself from a possible future 744 00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:57.679 Star Wars game. But it's true in the in the 745 00:49:57.800 --> 00:50:01.079 game universe too. You know, not all Star Wars games 746 00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:05.079 or IP games you know, really have magic. They don't 747 00:50:05.119 --> 00:50:07.159 all like hit the mark, you know, some of them 748 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:11.599 have a stamp on them, but there's there's a whole 749 00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:15.000 lot of diamonds in the rough. And I also think 750 00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:17.800 that the Star Wars deck Building game, you know, it's 751 00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:20.840 a two player dual deck building game with Star Wars. 752 00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:25.840 It's brilliant. It's super derivative. Like there's very little in 753 00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:28.360 that game that like hasn't been done elsewhere. But the 754 00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:32.960 way it's pieced together is the gameplay is fantastic. It's 755 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.679 super interactive, It has all these characters and chips in it, 756 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:39.119 and it lets you do Star Wars and it lets 757 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:41.679 you have a fun, quick two player game that's really 758 00:50:41.719 --> 00:50:46.519 easy to teach. Brilliant. Can Star Wars, you know, be 759 00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:51.920 saved absolutely? I mean there's countless people who have so 760 00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:56.239 much passion for Star Wars and work on Star Wars films. 761 00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:59.440 I've been lucky enough that you know, some of my 762 00:50:59.599 --> 00:51:02.719 friends have been you know, employees of Industrial Light and 763 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:07.519 Magic or worked with LucasArts in various ways. Because a 764 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:09.639 lot of my interactions are up in the Bay Area 765 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:13.159 with you know, Bay Area conventions and so on. There's 766 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.719 brilliant people working on these things. But sometimes you know, 767 00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:22.280 the marketing department or the you know, the the even 768 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:26.079 the best intentions of creative people are We're going to 769 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:30.159 create this thing that everyone's going to love. And when 770 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:33.599 you're shooting for a market of everyone's going to love 771 00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:39.159 this thing, sometimes you miss everyone. You you make something 772 00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:44.960 that is so middling, so inoffensive, that it also doesn't 773 00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:46.400 really stimulate. 774 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:49.280 And you know, you bring back the one character that 775 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.000 was thrown out of a spaceship at the end of 776 00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:54.840 the last trilogy and you just bring him back for 777 00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:56.800 no good reason. That that's also a thing. 778 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:03.039 So the the whole like bring a character back from 779 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:05.360 the dead, is that you know, that's an that's an 780 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:10.000 old trope from all of like various series TV series 781 00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:13.159 at various times, like oh, they're not dead. Oh, it's 782 00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.079 so incredible. You couldn't believe it. They were murdered, you 783 00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:17.519 know who shot j R. 784 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:20.480 Well, at least Dallas had the bulls to just say, 785 00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:24.400 fuck it, it's all a dream. He was in the 786 00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:27.440 shower and fell over and banged his head. At least 787 00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.280 they had that JJ Abrams just just went, oh, we'll 788 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:31.639 just bring the Emperor back. 789 00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.880 Isn't that like Bob Newhart. Isn't that like the end 790 00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:40.199 of the entire series? Yeah, it's entire series was a dream. 791 00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.920 It's Bobby Bobby Ewing. Yeah, we're showing our age here, Luke. 792 00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:53.519 In any case. Yeah, So sometimes we're all guilty of nostalgia. 793 00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:57.840 We're all guilty of like nostalgia that is delusional nostalgia too. 794 00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:01.480 We think that something that was really great in the 795 00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:04.119 past is so great that we need to go back 796 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:06.440 there and we need to revisit it. We need to 797 00:53:06.480 --> 00:53:09.239 bring it back to life. We need to make another 798 00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:13.320 version of the Running Man. And it's like The Running 799 00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:18.239 Man was at best a mediocre, super campy film to 800 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.880 begin with, Like the best part of the Running Man 801 00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:26.400 was it had Richard Dawkins on it, Like, here's a 802

00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:31.920 game show host a real game show host calling out 803 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.199 a bloodbath, you know, duel to the death, gladiator match 804 00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.800 in a in a kind of cheesy, you know, Arnold 805 00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:44.760 Schwarzenegger cliche film that was The Running Man, And then 806 00:53:44.760 --> 00:53:48.360 we decided that we need to remake that. No, but 807 00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:53.079 should we revisit the Blade Runner universe? Maybe so, but 808 00:53:53.239 --> 00:53:54.360 just be careful over there. 809 00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:57.440 Then you could make a film that's actually interesting for once. 810 00:53:57.559 --> 00:54:00.599 Yeah, Blade Runner twenty forty nine is is a pretty 811 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:03.960 darn good film. It's got a couple of flaws. 812 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.079 Better than the first one. I'll give it that. 813 00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.599 Oh, come on, now, you take it one of the 814 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:11.280 greatest films of all time. 815 00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:13.519 I take you one of the most overrated films of 816 00:54:13.559 --> 00:54:13.960 all types. 817 00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:18.960 Certainly fair enough overrated, not in its day. Got to 818 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:25.000 remember that this game, this film was a flop, and 819 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:25.559 it's time. 820 00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:31.599 So I want to move on now to a subject 821 00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:34.239 that makes me happy and I think makes you happy too. 822 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.320 And this is whiskey. When did you discover whiskey? 823 00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:42.400 So what's funny is I discovered Scotch at gen Con 824 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:46.159 and I hope I'm not getting anyone in trouble by 825 00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:50.960 telling this story. So if I get to too salacious 826 00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:53.360 a story. I know, you move a little bit forward 827 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:55.760 in your chair and you get excited that this is 828 00:54:56.159 --> 00:55:00.519 this is going to be. But I was playing a 829 00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:03.920 board game in the board game library at gen Con 830 00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:09.599 late one night, and this is ages ago in board game, 831 00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:13.760 you know, years. It was something like fifteen years ago. 832 00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:18.320 And I was with a friend and we were playing 833 00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:24.239 with a publisher and they said, hey, you know, I've 834 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:28.079 got a friend. And I barely knew this particular publisher. 835 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:30.800 They said, I've got a friend. He's got some scotch. 836 00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:34.000 He's like really good scotch. He's got it, like hidden 837 00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:36.920 under the table and whatever. Because whatever, they didn't allowed 838 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:39.119 drinking at gen Con at that point.

I don't know 839 00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:41.559 do they allow it now. I don't know. I can't 840 00:55:41.639 --> 00:55:45.639 keep I can't keep track of the weird rules. Like 841 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:48.199 you go to Okay, so you go to Essen, you 842 00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:51.559 can drink a beer for breakfast and nobody cares, right, 843 00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:54.559 It's like and here in the United States it's like, 844 00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.960 oh no, you can't drink a beer for breakfast, but 845 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:02.159 you can have sixty beers in the evening at a pub. 846 00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:06.320 Right, right, and then all bets are off. 847 00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:09.480 And then yeah, then you're in Nevada, which is, you know, 848 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:12.360 clearly a Mormon state where you can drink all you 849 00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:16.000 want in the major cities at a casino. So yeah, 850 00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:19.400 none of it makes any sense, like what's what's acceptable 851 00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:24.519 appropriate social behavior, chemical use, et cetera. But in any case, 852 00:56:25.440 --> 00:56:29.400 I had a Scotch in a plastic cup and I 853 00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:32.800 don't even remember what scotch it was, but I was like, 854 00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:38.400 that's the stuff right there, that is it. I didn't 855 00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:41.280 like run right out and buy bottles of scotch because 856 00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:45.199 that like took some time and some financial stability to 857 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:50.519 get there. So my family has had a mixed relationship 858 00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:53.760 with alcohol to say that, you know, we have to 859 00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.920 watch not destroying our lives and our families and so on. 860 00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:04.800 But Scotch, especially ped scotches, I appreciate a lot like 861 00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.920 what they do flavor wise, you know, I like a 862 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.760 whiskey that tastes like it has a cigar built in, 863 00:57:12.119 --> 00:57:17.559 and but I also just like exploring not just the 864 00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:20.199 idea that this is something that is you know, it's 865 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:24.599 alcohol and it's drunkenness or whatever, but there's a whole art, 866 00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:29.239 there's a whole craft behind this. And then I'm tasting 867 00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:34.000 something that took time, that it took effort, and it's 868 00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:39.039 thoughtful and it is my wife and always say so, 869 00:57:39.119 --> 00:57:43.039 I used to be a Rush fan, you know, early twenties, 870 00:57:43.199 --> 00:57:46.639 you know, you know bootstraps, you know, thinking about like 871 00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:53.119 individualism and so on. And there's a there's a song 872 00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:58.119 Red Barchetta that mentions an old car racing around in 873 00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.119 the future, but it is as a relic of a 874 00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:07.480 better managed time. And I have this nostalgia about a 875 00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:12.239 better managed time when we could slow down and we 876 00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:16.119 could appreciate things of value that we weren't in a 877 00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:19.159 rush to make the next appointment, that we weren't constantly 878 00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:23.239 checking our phones to see how many likes and follow 879 00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:27.039 we got, but that we can sit there. We can 880 00:58:27.079 --> 00:58:30.679 appreciate another person, We can appreciate a story, we can 881 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.559 appreciate a sunset or nature. We can appreciate the taste 882 00:58:35.159 --> 00:58:39.199 of something that's sat in a barrel for fifteen years. 883 00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:45.400 And so, okay, there's a lot of people listening to this, 884 00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:48.159 and I think my listeners are of a certain demographic 885 00:58:48.400 --> 00:58:51.559 and they're probably vigorously nodding their head. But there are 886 00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:55.079 going to be some people who doubt what you say 887 00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:00.039 or aren't experienced enough, can you recommend some whiskeys to 888 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:03.199 a novice who want to who wants to get on 889 00:59:03.239 --> 00:59:04.079 the whiskey train. 890 00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:12.639 So my go to Scotch is lafroug Ten and it's 891 00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:24.199 a medium cost, very pdy, extremely smooth Scotch whiskey. I've 892 00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:31.039 put I've done blind whiskey tasting and you could take 893 00:59:31.039 --> 00:59:34.599 a lafraug ten or you could take a lafroug quarter 894 00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.199 cask and you could put it up against one hundred 895 00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:46.239 and fifty dollars obah, and it'll hold its own in 896 00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:50.280 terms of accessibility. It's going to depend on taste because 897 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:56.239 an Islay Scotch Islay like the Islands Isle of Sky, 898 00:59:56.559 --> 00:59:59.559 et cetera, which I've never been there, and I'm speaking 899 00:59:59.559 --> 01:00:03.679 from ignorance of the geography and everything, but the style 900 01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:08.239 of whiskey from that region is smoky. It's p d. 901 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:12.679 They literally burn the insides of the barrels that they 902 01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:16.480 that they soak the whiskey in. They you know, they 903 01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:26.400 infuse pete smoke into the flavor of the liquor. Not 904 01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:31.480 everybody's into that much smoke. And then you know, I 905 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:39.440 like the McCallin as a as a non smoky alternative. 906 01:00:40.320 --> 01:00:44.920 But I think people could probably if they approach Scotch 907 01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:47.639 whiskey and they only go with the cheap stuff and 908

01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:52.079 they only go with the blends, they might they might 909 01:00:52.159 --> 01:00:55.320 miss it. They might miss what Scotch is about. 910 01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:59.840 And I'd recommend if anyone's listening to this, I'd recommend 911 01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:02.280 it Alaska if you if you want something that's not 912 01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:05.960 quite hefty, I like a Taliska. And if you want 913 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:09.480 to go irish, I think a red Breast is also 914 01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:14.440 an absolutely fabulous whiskey, and it's it's not an expensive. 915 01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:17.039 One, and its green green spot. 916 01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:21.320 It is also great. Yeah, rightest Tears is also also wonderful. 917 01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:30.760 And uh, and everybody is uh, cheap Irish whiskies destroy me. 918 01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:34.800 They are just not my thing. But yeah, I like 919 01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:38.760 a green spot and then a Talisker. Several years ago, 920 01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:42.199 Tom Jolly and I had a bottle of Talisker over 921 01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.559 the course of a weekend and basically a big, a 922 01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:49.840 big bag of little mini Hostess doughnuts that held us 923 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:55.079 over at a at a Dondracon convention that was priceless memory. 924 01:01:57.039 --> 01:02:00.480 So your next game, then is a is an chapter 925 01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:04.880 in my book, Lou. Actually it's surprising. It's almost as 926 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.760 if you've hacked my computer and this is Battlestar Galactica. 927 01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:12.119 How well does Battlestar Galactica leverage social deduction. 928 01:02:14.239 --> 01:02:21.679 It's my favorite social deduction film because it's it's there's 929 01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:27.960 so many reasons why you want to act in everyone's benefit, 930 01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:33.840 even when you're the bad guy. There's no like obvious 931 01:02:34.119 --> 01:02:37.760 like the player is the player who's the cylon is 932 01:02:37.880 --> 01:02:40.000 right away going to just be like I'm going to 933 01:02:40.079 --> 01:02:44.079 immediately act against everyone else else's interest. It just doesn't 934 01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:50.079 work that way. Instead, it's that real slow burn. And 935 01:02:50.119 --> 01:02:54.440 then you also have incentives for players who are not 936 01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:59.440 the cylon to act against the the wellbeing of the 937 01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:05.679 group as a whole. Also, the game's too long, and 938 01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:08.800 that's part of the reason why it's in the Doomsday 939 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.639 Cabin and doesn't hit the table every week because in 940 01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:15.760 the Doomsday Cabin, you know, I'm imagining we have like 941 01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:18.039 infinite amounts of time, and it's just like, what are 942 01:03:18.039 --> 01:03:22.159 we going to do now, Well, the world's ending, we 943 01:03:22.239 --> 01:03:27.320 might as well play Battlestar Galactica. And also Battlestar Galactica 944 01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:29.840 as a TV series if we go back to the 945 01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:33.639 series that that that that game is based on, it 946 01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:38.840 is this desperate story of survival. It is this here's 947 01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:45.000 your one last chance. There's so many things about that 948 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:48.400 series that I love and appreciate and then still kind 949 01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:53.400 of affect my my sense of of where we are 950 01:03:53.519 --> 01:03:58.599 as people. It's a truly kind of I'll probably I'm 951 01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:01.480 going to spoil a twenty year old series right now 952 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:09.480 in a couple of ways. Yeah, our kids old enough 953 01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:12.320 to watch. It was the question that we had at 954 01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:15.440 one point, and now my kids, Yeah, they can drink 955 01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:24.440 alcohol legally wherever they like. Battlestar Galactica takes place, as 956 01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:30.679 you know, the world or the thirteen Colonies of the 957 01:04:30.760 --> 01:04:32.519 Old World are being destroyed by it. 958 01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:34.800 If you just say the world, you're giving nothing away. 959 01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:41.159 Luke, Okay, there we go. But the battle Star Galactica 960 01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:45.920 survives because it's not wired to the Internet. The whole 961 01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:50.679 thing is, this is a ship that's so old it's 962 01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:54.480 not connected, and like we can take this into the 963 01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:58.639 modern world. And it's like I'm looking at some random 964 01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:03.920 website and has AI on it, and I'm like all 965 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:05.920 I wanted to do was just look and see you know, 966 01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:08.599 what are the movie times? Why are you trying to 967 01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:13.840 read my mind? Right now? What's going on here? 968 01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:14.440 Uh? 969 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:17.920 You know, we live in a world where AI has 970 01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:23.840 basically instructed humanity to build giant data centers to divert 971 01:05:24.199 --> 01:05:28.239 all of our financial resources to AI's will, and we 972 01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:29.119 are complying. 973 01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:31.960 I'm looking to upgrade my graphics card at the moment, 974 01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:36.039 Luke snaps, So, yeah. 975 01:05:35.800 --> 01:05:40.079 Here we are. And and in that story, you have 976 01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:44.960 the ship that's offline survives the cyber attack where basically 977 01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:51.360 everything that's wired is taken over. The cylons decide that 978 01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:57.039 Now I think, did

I shut these off? Checking my 979 01:05:57.280 --> 01:05:58.800 checking my audio test test? 980 01:05:59.039 --> 01:06:00.239 No? No, everything's fine. 981 01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:04.679 Okay, this is the other thing, Like even my headphones 982 01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.440 and my phone and my computer, they all are trying 983 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:10.280 to make decisions for me all the time. You're going 984 01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:12.400 to switch the audio over here, it's going to be 985 01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:15.039 logging in over there. We're going to be like next thing. 986 01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:17.320 I know, like I'm on the TV, Like, how did 987 01:06:17.360 --> 01:06:23.800 that happen? I didn't even try? Yeah. It is amazing 988 01:06:23.880 --> 01:06:30.199 the things that we've done technologically to avoid work, Like 989 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:32.239 so much of it is, like why are we avoiding 990 01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:36.199 all this work? Like I like work is where I 991 01:06:36.320 --> 01:06:39.920 kind of derive my satisfaction from life, Like I like 992 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:42.079 to make things. I like to do things. I like 993 01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:46.119 to solve problems. As I was leaving teaching, some of 994 01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.519 my younger colleagues are like, why are you doing that? 995 01:06:48.599 --> 01:06:52.000 You could just have AI do that. I'm like, I 996 01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.639 like the learning process. I like the satisfaction that I 997 01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:00.920 accomplished this. I actually would get no status faction from 998 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:06.000 having it done and not having Now AI could hold 999 01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:08.840 the other side of a sheet of dry wall for 1000 01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:13.079 me while I'm like building my walls, or you know, 1001 01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:16.039 if it could, you know, take the other end of 1002 01:07:16.119 --> 01:07:19.039 the spool of wire while I'm wiring something up. But 1003 01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:23.960 there's all kinds of things that tech can't do, won't do, 1004 01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:27.079 isn't made for the humans are still going to have 1005 01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:31.280 to do, and I don't want. I don't want the 1006 01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.800 fun and creative stuff taken away. And the only thing 1007 01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:38.039 left for us to do is to be wiring the 1008 01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:43.199 servers so that AI can keep running, Like let's uh, 1009 01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:47.480 let's keep something for us. Anyway, all of this started 1010 01:07:47.559 --> 01:07:50.880 on Battlestar Galactica. So yes, it's a social deduction game, 1011 01:07:51.320 --> 01:07:57.400 and the in my version of the Doomsday cabin. I'm 1012 01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:00.400 there with my you know, my friends, my face family, 1013 01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:04.440 and we've got a long time to kill and we 1014 01:08:04.559 --> 01:08:09.360 are We're working towards survival. All of us are working 1015 01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:12.960 towards survival. Just the Cylons are doing in a slightly 1016 01:08:13.000 --> 01:08:16.439 different way that might interfere with everybody else's survival. 1017 01:08:18.199 --> 01:08:20.560 So I want to talk now about the future, not 1018 01:08:20.720 --> 01:08:26.560 the far far future. I'm doing rabbit ears around the 1019 01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:30.079 word future of Battlestock Galacxica, but the future of Luke 1020 01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:33.159 Lorii game designer. What can we expect from you in the. 1021 01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:39.960 Future, So I am. I've been a developer now for 1022 01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:43.520 Cardboard Alchemy for going on six months, and so I'm 1023 01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:46.840 still working on figuring out how to balance my work 1024 01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:50.199 as a game developer, my you know, going to events 1025 01:08:50.880 --> 01:08:56.800 and being involved in the Cardboard Alchemy company, which, speaking 1026 01:08:56.840 --> 01:09:01.239 of rising stars, holy smokes, Cardboard Alchemy is crushing it. 1027 01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:07.760 So my game Andromeda's Edge and the Andromeda's Edge Genesis 1028 01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:13.359 Expansion are Cardboard Alchemy titles, and I'm definitely looking forward 1029 01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:16.640 to designing more games that can be Cardboard Alchemy titles. 1030 01:09:17.640 --> 01:09:22.039 I have another game that's been announced ish that is 1031 01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:26.319 a Fantasia game, and so we had a big party 1032 01:09:26.319 --> 01:09:29.880 at S and it's you know, coming soon. So I'm 1033 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.880 working with my son Maximus, who helped me with and 1034 01:09:32.920 --> 01:09:38.680 Drama's Edge, and Johnny pack Canton, the legendary Johnny pack Canton, 1035 01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:45.279 and we are making a game that we we are 1036 01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:49.880 tentatively calling it Castaways, And I mentioned that on a 1037 01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:53.920 couple of podcasts, So that's not a that's not a 1038 01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:57.159 big reveal. But the game itself and game name has 1039 01:09:57.199 --> 01:09:59.880 not been announced. But it takes a lot of this 1040 01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:03.399 sensibilities of my other work, and that it is work replacement, 1041 01:10:03.880 --> 01:10:07.840 that it is tableau building. It has some new mechanics 1042 01:10:07.880 --> 01:10:11.079 that I don't know if anyone's used or not, but 1043 01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:15.119 they're out there, some new dice mechanics, some interesting exploration mechanics. 1044 01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:17.800 But this is a game where you are going to 1045 01:10:17.880 --> 01:10:24.720 explore an island where anything is possible. And so this 1046 01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:28.520 is you imagine your ship that looks something like the 1047 01:10:28.560 -->

01:10:32.760 Titanic and it, you know, it runs aground in a 1048 01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:36.720 storm and these Castaways are washed up on the shore 1049 01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:39.840 of this mysterious jungle island, Like why are we in 1050 01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:45.119 the Tropics? And yeah, it's going to have Indiana Jones, 1051 01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:51.239 King Kong, dinosaurs, who knows, spaceships, anything is possible on 1052 01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:55.600 this island, polar bear, smoke monster, who knows what you're 1053 01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:55.960 going to have? 1054 01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:01.760 And so when you think about your career thus far 1055 01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:06.399 and what you've achieved, what is it that you want 1056 01:11:06.479 --> 01:11:12.239 to bring to the world of board games. 1057 01:11:13.039 --> 01:11:15.600 I don't know if any of my work will be 1058 01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:21.680 this kind of like groundbreaking sea change. Everybody remembers when 1059 01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:28.319 Luke Lori did X, Y or Z. I'm okay with incrementalism, 1060 01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:32.199 like I'm okay with the idea that we are all 1061 01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:35.720 all of us designers admire each other's work and learn 1062 01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:40.920 from each other. I had, you know, a real great 1063 01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:47.039 experience meeting the designers of Revive and Recall, and last 1064 01:11:47.119 --> 01:11:48.800 year at Essen it was the first time when I 1065 01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:55.600 met Fabio Lopano, who designed Shackleton Base and a bunch 1066 01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:56.359 of other games. 1067 01:11:56.399 --> 01:12:00.640 But I heard you had rather a royal stir with 1068 01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:01.520 Martin Wallace. 1069 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:13.039 I've definitely had encounters many Martin Wallace. But we learn 1070 01:12:13.119 --> 01:12:15.760 from each other, we grow from each other's work, We 1071 01:12:15.800 --> 01:12:21.199 admire each other's work, and so subtly, what what I 1072 01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:24.960 bring to the table is how to take complex games, 1073 01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:27.359 try to make them more accessible, try to make the 1074 01:12:27.399 --> 01:12:31.800 flow of a game more natural and cohesive, to try 1075 01:12:31.880 --> 01:12:35.560 to take away those barriers that'll keep people from playing 1076 01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:40.199 games that have more components or have more mechanics in 1077 01:12:40.239 --> 01:12:44.359 them by making the kind of the triggering mechanism simple. 1078 01:12:44.720 --> 01:12:47.880 So you take a game like Andromeda's Edge and you're 1079 01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:50.600 either going to launch a ship or pull your ships back, 1080 01:12:51.159 --> 01:12:53.600 like if you're going to summarize the game, that's the game. 1081 01:12:54.279 --> 01:12:59.199 And then the infinite possibilities of what all those choices 1082 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:02.840 can bring is where the weight of the game is. 1083 01:13:05.680 --> 01:13:09.159 I you know, I admor Myer games even like you 1084 01:13:09.159 --> 01:13:15.359 know Vitala Serta games. But there's also games where it's 1085 01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:20.039 like you get to this level of how many contrived 1086 01:13:20.800 --> 01:13:24.319 mechanisms or choices like why am I going up this track? 1087 01:13:24.359 --> 01:13:26.239 I don't know? It just says, so what does it mean? 1088 01:13:26.319 --> 01:13:32.119 I don't know. I've given up? And you know a 1089 01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:35.600 game that has eleven phases per round and everybody's got 1090 01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:38.159 to walk through all the phases and then I don't 1091 01:13:38.199 --> 01:13:40.760 want the game to play you. I want you to 1092 01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:43.600 be able to play the game. And so what do 1093 01:13:43.680 --> 01:13:46.399 I want to do. How do I want to influence 1094 01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:49.880 the field? Is to keep that sense of that flow, 1095 01:13:50.159 --> 01:13:54.640 that sense of accessibility, and that's what I strive to 1096 01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:55.760 achieve in my own work. 1097 01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:01.039 So you lost game then is I mean? I guess 1098 01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:03.680 it's not a cheat, it's just quite vague. And this 1099 01:14:03.840 --> 01:14:08.439 is my next prototype. So how exciting is it embarking 1100 01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:09.520 on a new project. 1101 01:14:10.359 --> 01:14:15.600 It's the best. I have several irons in the fire, 1102 01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:18.800 some of them things I'm doing mostly my own, some 1103 01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:25.039 of them collaborations. And there probably isn't anything to me 1104 01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:31.439 that is as motivating as like that initial conception of 1105 01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:36.279 the design through, like seeing it manifested as something playable. 1106 01:14:37.199 --> 01:14:44.119 It's really really gratifying. Fortunately my interest doesn't stop there, 1107 01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:47.199 but it can wane from time to time. You know, 1108 01:14:47.279 --> 01:14:50.479 there's a grind that you get to where I've got 1109 01:14:50.560 --> 01:14:54.399 a game. It works. Can't we just be done now? No? 1110 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:57.000 We're not done. Now. We have to play this one 1111 01:14:57.039 --> 01:14:59.800 hundred more times. We have to test all the different iteration, 1112 01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:03.560 the publishers asking for all these other things that we 1113 01:15:03.640 --> 01:15:07.800 need to try to include in there. So the ability 1114 01:15:07.880 --> 01:15:11.359 to see the game all the way through is of 1115 01:15:11.399 --> 01:15:15.199 great value. But the idea that I would bring to 1116 01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:20.000 the doomsday cabin a game that is something that I'm 1117 01:15:20.000 --> 01:15:23.279 passionate about that it's

something that keeps me going, like 1118 01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:27.000 that could keep me alive even in the most desperate 1119 01:15:27.039 --> 01:15:31.199 of circumstances. That hope of what I'm making next is 1120 01:15:31.239 --> 01:15:32.479 something that keeps me going. 1121 01:15:33.840 --> 01:15:38.920 And you see a guy who is fairly self assured 1122 01:15:39.279 --> 01:15:42.239 and fairly confident in themselves. Do you ever have imposter 1123 01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:43.720 syndrome when designing? 1124 01:15:45.399 --> 01:15:48.920 Imposter's syndrome is kind of a weird thing because it's 1125 01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:55.159 like if I if I imagine I'm the greatest designer 1126 01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:59.000 in the world, that that would be imposter syndrome. If 1127 01:15:59.039 --> 01:16:03.199 I imagine I'm someone who has had some real successful 1128 01:16:03.279 --> 01:16:05.319 games and I want to try to do that again, 1129 01:16:06.279 --> 01:16:12.600 that's just where I am. So I think people use 1130 01:16:12.680 --> 01:16:16.520 the term imposter syndrome when they're feeling self doubt, and 1131 01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:20.439 we all feel self doubt from time to time. My 1132 01:16:20.560 --> 01:16:25.840 self doubt comes from is it could be that gnawing 1133 01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:29.239 sensation of like, am I going to make anything unique 1134 01:16:29.239 --> 01:16:35.159 and original? I have? I hit my peak? Is my 1135 01:16:35.359 --> 01:16:39.079 last game that I you know, my previous game, is 1136 01:16:39.159 --> 01:16:42.640 that my best work? Am I going to have a 1137 01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:45.159 flop because I've never really had a flop. Am I 1138 01:16:45.159 --> 01:16:47.319 going to have a flop because everybody has a flop? 1139 01:16:49.239 --> 01:16:54.199 Is my work going to be like in some way 1140 01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:57.039 as the publisher going to somehow fall down on my work? 1141 01:16:57.680 --> 01:17:01.079 Am I going to experience that super unfortunate circumstance where 1142 01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:06.279 business failures lead to one of my games getting stuck 1143 01:17:06.319 --> 01:17:10.479 in limbo, or you know, the product never delivered to 1144 01:17:10.560 --> 01:17:15.640 people who wanted it. So I've had enough ups and downs, 1145 01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:20.560 you know. Literally, James Matthew of Minion Games passed away 1146 01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:27.000 after one of my expansions, expansion to Energy Empire. He 1147 01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:31.920 just finished the campaign for the expansion, the Cold War expansion, 1148 01:17:31.960 --> 01:17:34.399 and then he passed away, and that sat in limbo 1149 01:17:34.479 --> 01:17:37.640 for a couple of years. I got lucky that it 1150 01:17:37.680 --> 01:17:41.479 was Grail Games, and then Frosted Games came back. They 1151 01:17:41.640 --> 01:17:47.479 reissued Energy Empire just this year, and then previous to 1152 01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.439 that they had put out the expansion, they'd shipped expansion 1153 01:17:50.479 --> 01:17:56.760 to the backers. I don't count on having a charmed 1154 01:17:56.800 --> 01:18:00.840 life for having all those things, you know, line up 1155 01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:05.000 for me at every moment. What I count on is 1156 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:10.119 that I am going to continue that incremental work that 1157 01:18:10.199 --> 01:18:13.720 I will keep chipping away at the work, and if 1158 01:18:13.760 --> 01:18:15.880 the work isn't good, I'm going to make it good. 1159 01:18:15.960 --> 01:18:19.119 I'm going to keep going until it gets there. It 1160 01:18:19.399 --> 01:18:24.239 absolutely requires faith. You've got to have faith that it's 1161 01:18:24.279 --> 01:18:25.920 going to get there. You've got to have faith in 1162 01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:28.359 the people you're working with, You've got to have some 1163 01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:32.000 faith in yourself. But you also have to have patience. 1164 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:34.720 And this is where this is where I think the 1165 01:18:34.760 --> 01:18:39.600 imposter syndrome can settle in. Sometimes it's like if I'm 1166 01:18:39.640 --> 01:18:42.560 in the middle of a design and I'm like, oh man, 1167 01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:45.319 there's some parts of this design that aren't working. And 1168 01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:48.399 this happens in every design and every design. To get 1169 01:18:48.439 --> 01:18:50.119 to this point where you know there's parts of this 1170 01:18:50.199 --> 01:18:52.840 that are not working, there's parts of this where it's 1171 01:18:52.920 --> 01:18:56.800 like the people playing in and trying it out. It 1172 01:18:56.880 --> 01:18:59.159 doesn't really have a spark to it. It needs to 1173 01:18:59.199 --> 01:19:04.520 be better. And if I respond to that ride away, 1174 01:19:04.840 --> 01:19:07.840 if I have this impatience about it, I say to myself, 1175 01:19:08.640 --> 01:19:12.439 this isn't working. I'm no good as have all my 1176 01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:16.079 creative days are those behind me. If I get to 1177 01:19:16.119 --> 01:19:20.079 that point, that's destructive. But if I say to myself. Okay, 1178 01:19:21.359 --> 01:19:24.560 I have to have patience. I have to keep thinking 1179 01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:28.239 about this and my mind will go to that place 1180 01:19:28.279 --> 01:19:31.720 of problem solving. But sometimes that means that I need 1181 01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:34.279 to step away from the work. I need to go 1182 01:19:35.520 --> 01:19:38.399 experience other people's work, or I need to get away 1183 01:19:38.439 --> 01:19:42.680 from work entirely. There's so many times where I'm out 1184 01:19:42.720 --> 01:19:46.880 on a bike ride by myself when the answer comes, 1185 01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:51.359 when the innovation comes, and it's like, I wasn't at 1186 01:19:51.359 --> 01:19:55.000 my computer, I didn't have my spiral notebook

around, I 1187 01:19:55.079 --> 01:19:59.039 wasn't play testing. I was just alone with my thoughts. 1188 01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:03.680 And sometimes stepping away and getting that distance is where 1189 01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:07.199 the answers come from. 1190 01:20:07.720 --> 01:20:10.720 So one more question. So you're heading out towards the 1191 01:20:10.760 --> 01:20:14.439 cabin down the windy California roads and you go around 1192 01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:16.479 a corner and the back door of the car flies open. 1193 01:20:16.560 --> 01:20:19.920 Four of the games fly out down a ravine into 1194 01:20:19.920 --> 01:20:22.800 a river and swept away to posterity. Which games you 1195 01:20:22.880 --> 01:20:24.560 hope is sitting on the backseat of the car. 1196 01:20:25.359 --> 01:20:31.359 Holy smokes, what a tragedy. So I'm the kind of 1197 01:20:31.399 --> 01:20:34.880 person where that would not happen because I would have 1198 01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:39.359 checked that latch. I would have stacked those games right, 1199 01:20:40.880 --> 01:20:46.800 but we all face circumstances where we now. The judge 1200 01:20:46.840 --> 01:20:50.479 of a true like character is how you respond to 1201 01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:54.359 the thing you didn't plan for. And I would calmly 1202 01:20:55.000 --> 01:20:57.520 walk to the back of that car, and I would 1203 01:20:57.520 --> 01:21:02.880 accept whatever didn't fly out of the back. I would 1204 01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:07.720 probably hope that it was my unfinished design. I could 1205 01:21:07.720 --> 01:21:13.119 live with it being dominion. I could live with it 1206 01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:17.600 being none of the games. They all are washed down 1207 01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:21.119 the stream, They're out there in the mud, They're lost forever. 1208 01:21:22.119 --> 01:21:25.439 And because really, you know, what this world is all 1209 01:21:25.479 --> 01:21:28.640 about is us living our lives and the interactions that 1210 01:21:28.680 --> 01:21:32.039 we have with people, and games are just one of 1211 01:21:32.079 --> 01:21:35.520 the ways that we do that. There's something that we 1212 01:21:35.560 --> 01:21:38.920 put in front of us to have experiences together. 1213 01:21:41.680 --> 01:21:43.640 So if people want to get hold of you, if 1214 01:21:43.640 --> 01:21:45.479 they want to see what you're up to and all 1215 01:21:45.479 --> 01:21:46.760 of that, how can they go about doing that. 1216 01:21:47.359 --> 01:21:51.640 I'm super easy to find. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, 1217 01:21:52.000 --> 01:21:55.640 I'm on BGG. You ask any question about any of 1218 01:21:55.640 --> 01:21:58.960 my games, I'm so subscribed and dial in I might 1219 01:21:59.039 --> 01:22:01.000 be anyone else. The answer. 1220 01:22:02.239 --> 01:22:06.079 Excellent. Well, Luke Lorie, thank you very much, Thank you 1221 01:22:06.479 --> 01:22:09.359 very much. You can support the show in many ways. 1222 01:22:09.359 --> 01:22:10.880 You can tell your friends, you can talk about it 1223 01:22:10.920 --> 01:22:12.680 on social media. You can talk about it in your 1224 01:22:12.680 --> 01:22:14.920 own blog, podcast, or video. You can support it directly 1225 01:22:15.000 --> 01:22:16.880 by going to picture on dot com forward slash five 1226 01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:19.319 GVD for a rolling donation, or for a one off donation, 1227 01:22:19.439 --> 01:22:21.319 hitting the PayPal link at the bottom of the website 1228 01:22:21.319 --> 01:22:24.159 Five Games for Doomsday dot com. It's these donations that 1229 01:22:24.239 --> 01:22:27.600 keep the show going. Also join the best discord in 1230 01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:31.680 gaming by going to five gfd dot com, clicking the button, 1231 01:22:32.079 --> 01:22:34.920 and you can contact me at five Games for Doomsday 1232 01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:38.439 gmail dot com. And if I've managed to leg it 1233 01:22:38.439 --> 01:22:43.119 from the Dancing Tulips and all the fucking bombs, I'll 1234 01:22:43.119 --> 01:22:47.760 see you in two weeks for another five Games for 1235 01:22:47.880 --> 01:23:01.960 Doomsday comic Big Fa