התמלול המלא של Designing with Intention: David Hoang on Building the Right Things First

what made you stay in the profession? 00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:05.040 Yeah, I think like many people my generation, so what you call a geriatric millennial, uh, I started, I kind of stumbled into design. 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:10.960 And it's just one of these serendipitous moments that I think you don't know until you see it or kind of run into it. 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:17.599 But growing up as a kid, I was always really enamored with visual arts drawing. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:27.599 I remember always rating my uncle's like comic book collection and just like, you know, it's just as a kid, you just draw all the time. 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:33.919 And through high school and college, just really had an interest in in the visual arts and in art history. 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.159 And, you know, really didn't have a plan. 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:43.759 I think like really my most solidified plan was going to grad school, getting my MFA, and maybe being an art instructor. 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:50.400 But one of the things that was really helpful at the school I went to, it was very multidisciplinary and encouraged a lot of electives. 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:58.319 So I ended up taking a lot of humanities courses, philosophy, and and computer science just because I was really interested in that. 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:05.599 So, you know, during the Great Recession of like the 2000s, so much like a lot of my colleagues trying to figure out what to do. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:14.960 And it's really interesting when those volatile times can really make shape of something that's really interesting and something you better than you could even imagine. 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:23.439 It just happened to coincide with the time, you know, the iPhone launched and iOS became a big thing, and it was kind of this new form factor. 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:37.360 And the way I stumbled into design was really um, you know, a lot of these engineers frantically trying to find people who can make these beautiful schemomorphic layouts in Photoshop. 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:45.759 So I kind of just started my switch from art to being a production designer and really I kind of got into the craft that way. 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.240 And uh, you know, have always kind of really worked closely with engineering. 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:56.000 So like, you know, from that step went from kind of art and it more into design. 00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:03.840 And though they're not mutually exclusive, I think uh the thing that I really liked about design was art to me always felt more like self-expression. 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:13.520 And design was something where I think being able to take like something and build something that people would use and have value and have impact. 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.240 So that was something that was really special for me. 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:29.920 And I think that's really what keeps me in design today, where you can kind of take expression

and some of the practicality to really create these experiences that can really be at different scales, very, very impactful for people's livelihood. 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:31.920 Yeah, and I want to go back to one thing you said. 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.560 You mentioned you graduated basically in a recession, you know, it was not always easy at the start. 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:47.920 Uh, and that feels a lot like today, I imagine, for a lot of college students graduating, master's students graduating, and trying to figure out like how do I fit into this new normal because we've had like kind of a wonky economy for the past few years. 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:50.800 And um, but we have this like fresh new opportunity of AI. 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:58.240 So I appreciate you sharing that because I think that's helpful for uh younger, younger folks trying to figure out their way to see what you've been able to accomplish since then. 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:04.240 Yeah, it's just one of those things where um I'll just say a lot of my colleagues moved back with their parents, right? 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:23.439 And that may be a thing that people are feeling now, but just from there, like it's good to give yourself, even like, you know, not only in startups, but in your own life, just some runway to kind of think and and and explore, like, you know, what is something like bold you can t do and take in uh in times where things are kind of reshaping. 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:23.920 Yeah. 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:40.319 And and speaking of bold, I mean, if someone pulls up your LinkedIn, like you've clear they would clearly see that you've had like a really great career that's has a lot of household name brands like One Medical and and Um Web Replit and Webflow, um, and Atlassian, of course. 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.160 But you shared publicly that it wasn't always easy to get that start. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:50.079 So was there a particular role early on in your career that was like a really big jumping off point for you? 00:05:50.399 --> 00:05:50.560 Yeah. 00:05:50.720 --> 00:06:02.879 The first one I think of, and I think for Amber, this is literally gonna hit home a lot, was you know, one of my first roles was at a company called Exact Target that started in Indianapolis. 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:09.759 And to me, that was like my first company where I really felt like I was starting to work in tech. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:16.480 You know, ET was also a company where when I joined, like they were in like an extreme hypergrowth phase. 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:20.959 This was before the IPO, this was before the Salesforce acquisition. 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.600 And I really didn't know better, if I was honest with you. 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:37.759 I was just like, you know, uh I was in my my twenties at the time and started kind of working in tech and started to see like how you know it started shaping up and and being in a place where things were growing and changing really rapidly. 00:06:37.920 --> 00:06:44.240 So I I always fondly remember those moments of like being able to kind of make that transition. 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:53.199 I think for me, and I think for a lot of people, you know, the next generation, there's probably a lot of like FOMO and pressure at the time. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:07:04.160 Like a lot of my my colleagues were they were moving to San Francisco, they're working at the the cool tech companies, the the Googles of the world, and I was still trying to figure it out too. 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:11.360 And I think for me, you know, and when I look back at my career, I tell people it's like, you know, none of this was really intentional. 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:16.079 It kind of all kind of connects in, you know, looking backwards in a lot of ways. 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:24.800 And and the thing I always say now, it's just like when when I think about any anything in my career, just first and foremost, I'm just like, what's that story I want to tell? 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:25.120 Right. 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:30.240 Like what are the people who are the people I want to remember working with and and also have an impact. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:39.279 But yeah, I would say, you know, that that that first one was definitely exact target, really um having the opportunity to to start working in tech. 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:39.839 Yeah. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:41.920 I was really hoping you'd mention exact target. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:50.800 Um I think a lot of peak people on the West Coast don't necessarily know what it is, but being from Indianapolis, yeah, being from Indianapolis, it's like a huge local success story. 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:54.720 It basically had like a$2.5 billion acquisition by Salesforce. 00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:03.680 So it was one of those like local ecosystem pollination moments where a lot of people kind of got their start there and and then started other startups as a result. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:04.639 So super cool. 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:05.120 Yeah. 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:06.800 Yeah, that's that's really cool. 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.839 So when you, you know, you were in kind of like more of the IC role on the design side. 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:18.160 When and why did you decide to actually move over into design leadership rather than remain in the IC side? 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:19.279 You know, it's funny. 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.680 In my early career, I was like, I'm never gonna be a manager. 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:25.199 Managers are completely useless. 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:27.839 Like, why would you from designers all the time, by the way? 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:29.040 Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:30.959 The the biggest, uh yeah, for sure. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:33.360 It's like, was a manager even gonna do for me? 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:40.720 And like I always wanted to really like carry like honing in your

craft and just being the best crafts person was important to me. 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:41.759 It still is, you know. 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:45.759 But I think when I kind of moved into leadership, there were a couple of things. 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:48.399 So it was not intentional, just kind of with that mindset. 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.720 It's just kind of like I think some of the best leaders are the the reluctant leaders, right? 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:58.879 They're never looking like I want to be in this role so I can have this sort of you know influence or or control. 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:07.759 But I think you step into it as a way to be able to scale impact and be able to, you know, have have more leverage too. 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:17.840 So for me, my few leadership opportunities were when there was a transition and there was an opportunity to take on like the organization. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:29.759 So, you know, like Black Pixel, where I was before one one medical, and you know, that was a moment where like Kimber Lockhart, our CTO, was like uh, you know, asked me if I wanted to take on this role of leadership. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:38.720 And for me, I what I kind of realized was like there's only so much you can do, like quite literally as an IC, you know, in your area of impact. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:41.679 So there's only so much time in the world to focus on one area. 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:52.080 And then I said, if I if I was able to move in this leadership route, uh I can work with other designers, work across the organization upward to kind of help influence the things that are most important. 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:59.279 And I think that's always what I've felt is important is just leading through the craft and and the impact first. 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.279 And you know, you can do that in different roles. 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:09.679 But that was really what instigated me moving in in into management more more formally was was that opportunity. 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:14.159 But it was something I, you know, if I were honest with you, I never like planned on it. 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:15.519 It just kind of happened. 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:16.080 Yeah. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.000 I mean, definitely the scaling with impact. 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.559 I think there's a lot of people that will resonate with that. 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.039 I think about that too, in terms of my journey. 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:34.960 And I'm sure I know Amber and I have talked about that, just the opportunities that you get with impact as you get into these leadership roles and the influence across the company and then also on how you know the companies are shaped. 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:36.399 So it's really great to hear that. 00:10:36.639 --> 00:10:36.879 Yeah. 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:50.559 And I I feel like just having been inside of organizations too, I've seen that every team needs this, but certainly design, like having somebody who's a strong advocate that comes in, especially like participating in executive reviews, where like not all the designers are there to share their point of view. 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:57.039 So you need, you know, somebody there explaining why we should have a certain quality bar and why we should be thinking about things a certain way. 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:00.879 So kind of shows, I think, back to your early comment about like why do we even need managers? 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:08.080 I think that's what you can add, particularly if you're somebody who has spent time getting to know the craft before kind of moving into that role. 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:09.120 So super cool. 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:09.600 Okay. 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:14.799 So we can't bring you on the podcast without discussing how founding designers are kind of having a moment right now. 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:22.639 What do you have to say to founders or to designers who are thinking about starting a company or even thinking about joining as like employee number one or two? 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:23.200 Yeah. 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:33.519 Uh this may be a hot take for me coming from a design background, but I guess my first my first belief is not every designer should be a founding designer. 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:43.840 And I think it takes a certain type of designer to be able to do it because I think when you're in a founding designer role, uh there's a lot of interesting things that come with that. 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.799 You know, whether you're the first designer or you're a designer who's starting a company. 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:54.399 And I think, you know, what's tough for a a lot of designers is being able to balance. 00:11:54.559 --> 00:12:06.639 I always say the best like founding designers, you have to contradict yourself a lot of times, where it's like, you know, sometimes you want this pixel perfect design that you want, and that's really why you want to start something to really kind of shape that vision. 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:12.799 And though that's important, you now are responsible for so many other things, especially a design founder. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:19.200 You're responsible for the constructs of the business and like thinking about how to apply design across the company. 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:24.320 And that might be something, you know, comes down to we can't do the rebrand. 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.720 We need to hire someone to work on go to market or something else. 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:37.759 So I think the best design founders like know how to balance that like pushing craft and applying that impact across the areas of the business. 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:55.679 And so I think that's like my first reaction is like, you know, when we I I do think I do believe in the the power of like designer, like first designers coming in and shaping it, but it is a thing you have to recognize the stage in which like

where the company is and then have that vision to be able to mature it. 00:12:55.759 --> 00:13:03.440 Because I think if you if you stick too much to your conviction as a practitioner, as a designer, it could be things that are detrimental to the business too. 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:06.639 So you have to be comfortable with with that iteration cycle. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.480 So for those who are perfectionists, it's a little bit a little bit of a challenge, right? 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:22.240 Like I've I've known some designers where they want want to start a you know, they're starting a company, they might raise a seed round or just like a friends and family round, and then they spend all their time working on the pitch deck or something. 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:30.000 So yeah, it's like you have to be uncomfortable, you have to be comfortable like switching modes and how you apply design, not just like the pure craft of it. 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:30.399 Totally. 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:30.799 Yeah. 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:31.039 Yeah. 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:32.559 Stage is super important. 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:40.639 And, you know, you've been at a lot of, you know, different companies in those growing stages, and especially, you know, companies that later went public. 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:45.919 Um, curious about when you're dropped into like the chaos of like that growing company. 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.399 Is there anything that you look for in particular first? 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:49.919 Yeah, that's a good question. 00:13:50.159 --> 00:14:01.679 I think for me, the thing I always look for, you know, I think, yeah, with exact target and and one medical, those were kind of like my first arcs of hypergrowth companies that that rapidly changed quickly. 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:09.279 I think for me, it's just kind of really thinking about the trajectory of kind of where things are going and just like how fast that transformation's happening. 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:29.759 Because I think it's like, you know, for me, hypergrowth is not only about like the headcount or the, you know, that growing, but how much the maturity is growing from uh, you know, the the revenue velocity and you know how you need to think about scaling orgs and it's it's that it's that awkward growth stage for for a lot of people. 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:38.159 So, you know, every like Webflow and One Medical, especially, like I felt like every year there felt like working at a different company. 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:45.279 And, you know, and I think you know, if and for me, company building is the thing I I I love being a part of too. 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.840 So that's kind of the things I kind of look forward to kind of like, you know, where's this company now? 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:51.360 Like, what is the trajectory? 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:55.759 But in addition to trajectory, like what are the growth phases they might be going through? 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:57.120 And how can how can I help? 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:57.360 Right. 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.080 And some people enjoy it, some people hate it too, you know. 00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:01.919 So it's like um yeah. 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.720 The pace of change, yeah, I'm sure it can be. 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:05.679 Yeah. 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:06.159 Yeah. 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:20.960 Was there anything like I'm curious, like if you know, from one medical, like being a very healthcare focused kind of company and then Webflow or Lassian or Replit, like more on like the enterprise side, like was there any commonalities across those as you were building and scaling? 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.240 Or do you think that they just they all had like their own trajectories? 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:26.000 Like I said, like from a sector perspective. 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:26.559 Yeah. 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.240 Um I'll tell you what the common thread is. 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:36.879 I'm I think the common thread is really kind of fostering behavior change over time. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:38.799 And it's very different people, right? 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:42.799 So but uh behavior change in in in workflows and tools. 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:51.679 That is something that you know I've kind of said throughout my career, it's been a common thread, whether it's a doctor or it's a Majira admin, right? 00:15:51.759 --> 00:16:03.200 It's like, of course, the stakes are a little bit different in in different capacities, but but what is kind of common is really applying the user experience and and the workflows and tools for people. 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:11.759 So I remember at one medical, it was really challenging to make a lot of changes in the workflows, even like the button position of something. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:20.320 But if you're thinking about like a clinician who's seeing like dozens of patients every single day, the UI is not even the thing they're thinking about, right? 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:24.480 They're thinking about the person who needs care uh wait waiting in the guest room. 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:26.159 So or waiting in the waiting room. 00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:32.399 And like, um, and you think so they're they have this habit that they've been doing for decades, and all of a sudden it changes. 00:16:32.480 --> 00:16:34.879 They're just like, oh my goodness, this is so challenging. 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:42.480 Um, Webflow, Replit, you know, I think uh designers and developers have these habits, have these perspectives. 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:59.519 They spend, they spend so much of their livelihood in the workflows, you know, whether it's their own livelihood or livelihood of and dependency on the organizations, that to me has been the common thread from, you know, like my entire career is just like the the the tools and workflows and what impact what impact that could be. 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:04.160 And you talked

about kind of um, you know, joining a growing company where every single year feels different. 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:14.079 I think Rachel and I could probably relate with Komodo and Cruz, but I'm curious, like how did your mindset and approach change to joining a new company when you were dropped into a large company like Atlassian? 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.799 That must have been like a semi-different experience just given the stage. 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:17.279 Yeah. 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:24.160 You know what's interesting is with Atlassian, I thought it was gonna be a huge major change. 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:30.720 And and I think Atlassian is like that it's probably that perfect size to kind of have like it be familiar. 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:38.880 So I think what makes it feel a little bit smaller is uh there's like it's one of the first places I've been where there's a there's a portfolio of companies, right? 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:42.799 A lot of the places I've worked, the product was like quite literally the company. 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.839 The business existed to to build the product, right? 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:54.400 But I think um, you know, what Atlassian has done well over the almost two decades of existence is like portfolio construction in that. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:09.519 But I think um I think even so just kind of in the dynamics of the market, what I believe is gonna be like an AI revolution, I think a lot of Atlassian like feels a little bit more of like a still like going in their growth stage, right? 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:16.400 It's like it's just kind of funny to see like a company that has IPO'd now going through their growth stage in in a lot of ways. 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:37.599 So again, that's why I kind of tell people it's like you know, the growth and scaling is not about like you know what round you're in or if you're pre-IPO or post, but kind of like the the market dynamics, like where the where the business is going and like some of these new frontiers like mobile and AI, like those are kind of the things that are around uh navigating growth. 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.079 But but it is like, yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised how uh how comfortable it's been. 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:52.400 You know, there might be some nuances where it's like, you know, at a startup you get access to these tools like a lot quicker and like in a more corporate setting. 00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.960 I'm like my my first week was just getting single sign-on working and all that stuff, but you know, in the grand scheme of things, not too bad. 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:14.240 Yeah, well, what you shared is probably a good sign because I think there's probably a lot of these mature companies that are gonna struggle to kind of read the room and and figure out how do we fit into this new AI world where we have all these tools at our fingertips and all these startups popping up. 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:22.799 I think it's

a huge opportunity, not only for the startups, but also for these bigger companies to figure out like how do we sort of rethink things sometimes from a first principle's perspective. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:26.720 So it's good to see you feel like they're kind of going through a growth stage right now. 00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:27.599 So yeah. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:28.079 Yeah. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:41.599 And the thing I'd say, Amber, it's like, you know, just being open, like when I joined Atlassian, I was kind of thinking about like, wow, you know, a lot of my experience has been in startups, not so much in like the the larger enterprise. 00:19:41.759 --> 00:20:00.640 But to what you touched on, I think many if many of the enterprise companies right now are kind of really thinking of this as an excess existential moment of like what does B2B even look like in a world where it's much smaller teams, you know, it's not gonna look like what you know, I I'm pretty confident it's not gonna be what it looks like today. 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:02.799 And just kind of going through that transformation. 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:14.240 The thing that gave me like feeling a little bit uneasy about I felt actually become a differentiator where like all these companies want to figure out how to work like a startup, how to be lean in that regard. 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.759 So it's it's like was really perfect time timing to join. 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:18.240 Yeah. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:23.519 It just related to that, the thing you said about like how B2B is really going to change given everything going on with AI right now. 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:24.480 Do you subscribe to that? 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.680 There's been this like notion going around that SaaS is dead. 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.079 Like, do you think that the entire model is completely going to be dead? 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:40.799 Or is it um is it just like the monetization path changes and the products are similar, but they're built in a different way and they're distributed in a different way? 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.039 Just curious how you sort of think about that. 00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:43.599 Yeah. 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.519 Uh I'll share, I'll share my personal perspective on it. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:55.599 Is I do think do you think SaaS will die if SAS itself doesn't kind of transform how it how it works and and function? 00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:05.039 But I will also say it it it in the tech world and in like the SaaS world, it takes a long time for things to die too. 00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:23.039 So I think it's not gonna happen overnight because you know, for us, like really being in the heart of tech and like kind of that, you know, that that early adopter phase and crossing the chasm, we forget there's still a lot of these legacy companies that are very behind trying to modernize in that way. 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.599 So I I don't think it's gonna happen overnight.

00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:27.359 I do think the things are gonna be important. 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:35.680 Like to me, if I were just future casting, what I think it's gonna be is yeah, I think the teams are gonna be a lot leaner or smaller. 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.279 Scott Belski talks a lot about like the talent stack collapsing. 00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:41.440 So a lot of these roles might be different, right? 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:49.599 Like there may not be just a designer, an engineer, and a product person, but it's one person using AI tools to really kind of leverage that. 00:21:49.759 --> 00:22:01.200 I think I think the opportunity for SAS is to really what I like to call own the handshake, where it's like these sort of moments where it's like partnerships with whether it's customers or Other integrations. 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:18.079 That's why I'm really excited about something like you know Model Context Protocol MTP, where it's like, I don't think it's gonna like completely bring down the walled gardens of SaaS, but it does kind of force SaaS companies to think about like, okay, how do you kind of modernize the partnerships and things? 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:25.440 You can't just you can't just vendor lock anymore because the speed to be able to like switch to something else is like so much faster, right? 00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:30.160 You can go from like one cloud IDE one day and almost like bring everything over. 00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:38.240 So I think I think that's gonna be important for like SaaS companies to think about how do you start how do you start modernizing that era? 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:48.160 And I think the thing uh the forewarning I would give a lot of these like enterprise companies is like you can't rest on the laurels that it's like, hey, you know, these things aren't aren't going to change. 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:58.000 But, you know, like even thinking about next generation builders, like they are gonna have a completely different lens in like what they want to be using and what they expect from. 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:02.480 And if you don't adapt to that, then you know, you're gonna become irrelevant pretty fast. 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:03.279 Yeah. 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:13.359 Um, so switching gears back to kind of more on the early stage side, um, you know, we often hear in the industry that some early stage founders, you know, maybe they can't afford design yet, right? 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:15.359 Especially if they're not like a founding designer. 00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:18.559 Maybe they're more on the engineering side or more on the sales side. 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:20.480 What's your response when you hear something like that? 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:20.880 Yeah. 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:22.480 It's a good question. 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:33.039 Part of me doesn't believe that is because I'm kind of like, like, you know, when you when someone sees their first first few hour hires, a lot of it's prioritization, right? 00:23:33.200 --> 00:23:44.559 And I think I might need to fact check this, but I think like, you know, with Mercury, like Juliana, who's their VP of design, first designer, she might have been like the third employee or like pretty, pretty early. 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:49.279 So that's an example of a company that's like, hey, like design's important, you know. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:59.359 So you know, I think when I talk to a lot of founders and a lot of early stage startups, and they say we can't afford a designer, but I'm like, what have you spent before that? 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:01.519 You know, what have you spent on infrastructure? 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:03.039 What have you spent on go to market? 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:06.319 You know, sometimes I feel like it's it's almost an excuse. 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.240 But that said, I think, and again, it's uh it's a spectrum too, right? 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:13.119 Because then you can over-index on design in that regard. 00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:25.039 I think the thing that's really cool to see, and of course, like I'm I'm personally invested in this, is seeing that more designers are interested in becoming early stage investors and advisors. 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:33.440 And now there's kind of this network and community for founders to have access and have some guidance in in the work too. 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:45.440 So um, you know, I think when I kind of was in my career, it was you could count the design investors like, you know, in one hand, you know, and now at least starting to see a lot more blooming. 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:46.240 So that's really cool. 00:24:46.400 --> 00:25:00.640 So I think that's been that'd be kind of my advice to a lot of the founders is like, you know, like like get you if you can't afford a designer, you know, like get get one on the cap table or get, you know, like work with funds that can give you access to that. 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.880 And yeah, even that short time can provide um a lot of value. 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:17.920 And and that's where I like spending my time is I actually like spending time with companies where they don't have a designer to to be able to kind of help, like, you know, provide guidance in kind of different paths it can take too. 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:31.119 Yeah, and we've seen that a lot of like top companies that have ended up becoming unicorns and decacorns actually started off either with a founding designer as a co-founder or with design as something that was like valued early on in the company. 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:35.039 I know even when I worked at Snap, that was like probably Evan Spiegel's favorite. 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:39.519 I don't know if he would consider himself a designer by trade, but that was like the place that he spent all of his time. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.759 And you see that at like Figma, Airbnb. 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.079 It's definitely in the early DNA of

the company. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:48.720 And now I feel like VCs and early stage startups are starting to catch on to that. 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:55.359 So you're seeing a lot more emphasis on like how do we get that early support, whether it's through a designer or through an advisor or through an early hire. 00:25:55.599 --> 00:26:07.839 But I was chatting with sort of like a top recruiter in design in the Bay Area, Garrett Fowler, and he was just saying that like a lot of designers just don't want to join companies if they don't feel that the company values design. 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:25.680 Um so I'm curious, you know, what's what sort of things can founders do that are not maybe they're not designers by trade, but they, you know, when they're having those conversations with designers and getting them excited to join the team, what are the sort of things that they can discuss they can have with the designer to kind of show that they truly care? 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.160 Yeah. 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:32.400 First, uh Garrett's awesome and yeah, glad to glad he was on the you had a chance to chat with him. 00:26:32.559 --> 00:27:03.680 I think um you know, the way I would say it to founders is I think for designers, it's like it's first knowing like what success looks like as a founding designer or a co-founder that's a designer, because I think the n I'll tell you the number one mistake is in what's really disappointing for designers kind of talking to startups is when there's a founder that reaches out and it's like, you know, we need a designer, and you're talking to a product designer and they're like, Hey, we need like pitch decks or we need like marketing materials, and they're like, There's just a lot of people. 00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:07.599 Yeah. 00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:08.559 Yeah, exactly. 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:17.839 So I would say, you know, for founders or kind of people looking to kind of bring on design and is talk about like what are the areas where there's impact and what are the outcomes, right? 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:30.880 So I think to me, the the the founders who are designers or founding designers, where it's most successful is and I think where they want to have impact is across the entire company. 00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:38.400 Because for many of us, like, no, let's be real, like design often gets like added on later. 00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:42.079 There's already been like um decisions already made. 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:49.519 So when you're a designer, you you never really get to kind of really be intentional in the decision-making process early on. 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:53.359 You're dealing with tech debt, you're dealing with organizational debt, and these other things. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:04.160 And I think for like if I was pitching for a designer come board, it's like, hey, these are the areas where you can help decide on what the intended outcomes are, and that's done through design. 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:10.480 Whether that is how do we think about our hiring process or how do we think about the product UI. 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:16.160 So again, I think I think what's helpful is just getting clarity to what type of designer you want to bring on. 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:24.240 There's so many different specializations, it may depend on industry too or sector uh in in that regard too. 00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.119 Yeah, I love that. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:43.200 It reminds me of what you were saying earlier about how you connect your different companies that you've been at, where they're all about like user behavior change and how that's again so much more expansive than maybe what an early stage founder is thinking, like, oh, we need help with like the pitch decks or like you know what you're saying, Amber, with the pixels and moving those in the ground. 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.759 It's really about the company building and like the vision and outcome there. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:48.640 So that's awesome. 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:55.759 Yeah, I remember at one medical that was really fun to be able to have design impact there and like other things. 00:28:55.920 --> 00:29:03.039 So one of the one of my favorite projects was working on revamping employee onboarding and doing something like that, right? 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:10.640 Because it was like we were um we were in our tiny office on Souther Street Market and we were kind of bursting at the seams when we were really growing. 00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:15.279 And it was kind of hard to kind of not have a like know when new people are started. 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:21.680 So, you know, we got to design like, hey, when people start in the first day, we designed these like welcome balloons. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:27.839 So when like a new person joined at their desk, it just kind of broadcasted a signal for people to come in and say hello. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:52.000 And it's like those are the cool things about designing like at a startup too, is like not only experience for like the product you're building, but really being able to think about that because you think about like the behaviors and the psyche, the like the first impression someone will have in on their first day if you didn't have any signal and they then no one ever came up to them and said it might feel a lot different than when there's something to really kind of celebrate that. 00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:58.480 So I think those are kind of like the the really small like design the design work that can really also be impactful. 00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:58.960 Yeah. 00:29:59.200 --> 00:29:59.920 That's awesome. 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:15.759 Um when you I'm curious now, as a as an executive leader in design, when you advocate for the design team inside of a company, how do you balance giving strong design opinions versus stepping back and kind of letting the the founders and other members of the team kind of find their way a

little bit? 00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:17.119 Yeah, it's a good question. 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:24.720 I think for me, this may be a contrarian thing, but for me it's really you do want to lead with a lot of conviction. 00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:38.000 And I think that's important because one of the lessons I learned in my career is like people want to know like what you believe and what your point of view is, but that doesn't mean you know it it has to be like my way or the highway. 00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:46.559 But I think that helps kind of people think about the clarity in like how they should be thinking about the work, you know. 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:51.200 And they think um, you know, I I remember this like all the time. 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:56.720 So Amir Dan Rubin, who was our CEO at One Medical, he always kind of said the same three words. 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:01.599 He's like, our priorities perform, innovate, and grow, which is funny because PIG is the acronym. 00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.160 Uh, but but and I was like, man, he keeps just saying that like every day. 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.519 It's like, but that's as a leader, that's so important, right? 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:25.920 It's just like, how do you like distill things to the simplest form to provide clarity when you're not around so people can like think about the decisions and to be able to give people a clear picture and the highest fidelity of like what you believe and what you care about, it helps them think through it, right? 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:34.720 And and then they'll be able to make their decisions on like, you know, like some people might know, like, hey, David cares about this thing, but I have this context. 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:37.279 I'm comfortable making the decision on it too. 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:48.960 And and and then I think uh, you know, with founders, worked with a lot of founders in my career, and I think it's important to bring something in to challenge the point of view too. 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:51.599 Like uh, and I think the founders want that as well. 00:31:52.160 --> 00:32:01.599 I always encourage people, it's like you you you want people to know like what you're about just as you're joining, and then and then like you'll find ways to adapt to the company. 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:08.160 So then it gives people like a baseline and kind of like know know what what they expect from you. 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:13.359 Yeah, and the fact that you still remember the the acronym, you know, that clearly stuck with you, right? 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:14.480 Like it worked. 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:15.440 It's funny. 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:20.319 Anytime I see X1 medical colleagues, we're like perform, innovate, grow. 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.559 Yeah, and it's like, yeah, yeah, so right. 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:23.359 So important. 00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:24.319 Something like that. 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:24.559 Yeah. 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.240

So I know we know that you work, you know, obviously with a lot of first-time founders. 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:31.759 You're an angel advisor, um, angel investor and an advisor as well. 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.519 Is there a piece of advice that you give more than any other? 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:36.720 Question. 00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.160 Let me think for a second. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:33:00.079 I think the one thing the one thing I say to every founder that I work with is like it's really nothing nothing novel or nothing like mind blowing, but I think it's kind of making sure like I always feel like the number one way to be productive or have impact is to to reduce the iteration cycle. 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:04.160 So like again, don't be don't be a perfectionist on this stuff. 00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:28.240 And it's like, you know, it's not gonna be you know, zero to a hundred that you have to get to a hundred percent, but it's maybe iterating each percent on the stuff because uh, you know, for early stage like time is of the essence, and it's like, you know, and I think uh one thing I always remember Amjad saying that replet is he's like, you know, like anyone who kind of knows him is like he he's very zero sum in like everything in life. 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.240 And he said, look, everything's zero sum, the only thing that is not is time. 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:43.279 And I'm like, that's so true, you know, and I think that's like the lesson for the founders is like the moment you have in front of you and the time that you have to be able to like get that out there. 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:55.519 And again, just I think as designers, it's it it is uncomfortable to to kind of say that, and but you gotta just like uh get the thing out there and and give yourself more shots on goal to to iterate. 00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:04.079 Uh and just kind of switching gears again here, you've also kind of built a public voice as a as a person in design, as a design leader through writing and speaking. 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:08.159 Was that kind of a conscious personal brand strategy or did it happen organically? 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:11.280 Yeah, like anything in my life, it kind of happened organically. 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.800 Yeah, because I wasn't like, I want to be a speaker and and do that. 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:23.360 Like, you know, the same way I used to think managers were worthless, I thought speaking and then that stuff was too. 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:25.039 But I'll tell you what I learned from it. 00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:31.679 So I think one of the first people who encouraged me to speak is uh a woman named Jamie Newberry. 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:36.880 Like we overlapped at at Black Pixel, and she gave talks that I was like really excited about. 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:49.360 And, you know, I remember what she told me was just like, you know, public speaking is really not about yourself and being on the stage, but it's like what

what message do you want to scale and get across to people? 00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.000 And she kind of said it was kind of like giving back at scale, which I loved, right? 00:34:54.159 --> 00:35:02.639 It was like, oh, you have this format and platform to be able to instead of like sharing it with one person, you can share it to the world, and that's the value of it. 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:08.000 So that was something that um, you know, I I really loved the framing of it. 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:13.199 And that's what encouraged me to speak and like put stuff out there. 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:21.360 The writing in a lot of ways was like um really just a time in my life where I wanted to have more consistency. 00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:26.400 So I, you know, I was one of those people where they're I kept saying, like, I want to write more. 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:32.400 And I'll write like one blog post like every two years and just like said, I didn't know that's like me. 00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:33.920 Yeah, totally, right? 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.079 It's like and I think we've all felt that way, right? 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:41.280 Because I think we're like, hey, there's so much, like, there's so much stuff out there, like, why would someone listen to me? 00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:52.480 And one of my mentors just kind of said, like, you know, the one thing you could write about any identical like topic, but the one thing that's gonna be unique is just your own experience, perspective, and voice. 00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:55.440 That kind of encouraged me to start writing. 00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:59.440 I I did the first on deck writing program, which was like so much fun. 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:13.599 And yeah, that's how I started um from 2019, you know, writing proof of concept is just something where um I've done it consecutively weekly for the past five coming on six years as that. 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:18.000 And it was really kind of like building that consistency and holding myself accountable. 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:33.199 Oh, there's some weeks where I'm like, I don't even know what I'm gonna write, but you know, because if I brought that consistency in that area in my life, I I thought it would like help in at the workplace, you know, like just my my my personal relationships too, to kind of spread there. 00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:47.679 But I think I think um, you know, personal brands kind of an interesting thing because I do think it's important to kind of put yourself like out there and be able to really articulate, you know, like what are those things that you have can conviction about. 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:57.440 And I think writing's also a great format to connect to uh other areas or connect to other people in relationships that you'd never know, right? 00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:10.960 There's so many people that I've reached out to because they wrote a blog that really touched me, or you know, I saw a talk, you know, Brett Victor's Inventing on Principle was like one of those talks that just changed how I thought about things. 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.760 And like those things are like so so valuable. 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:34.400 I love that you talked about giving back at scale because I I think like as you progress with in your career, there's so many people that want to pick your brain and want to see and so even just doing things like this, like being on a podcast and talking about your your learnings or or joining a conference or writing your blog, it's a incredible way for others to learn from you without you being like, I'm gonna be in one-on-ones the rest of my life. 00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:36.159 I know doing mentorship meetings. 00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:37.599 So yeah. 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:42.639 So let's uh let's talk a little bit about where you're at today and looking forward. 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:44.639 Um, your current chapter at Atlassian. 00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.679 What made you want to join a bigger company and join Atlassian? 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.239 And what's sort of your North Star leading design in such a beastly suite of products that you mentioned? 00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:53.840 Yeah, you know what's interesting? 00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:55.360 I'll be completely honest. 00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:02.239 I think when I joined Atlassian, a lot of people were surprised because it was it like it felt like a different shape of a place I would go. 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:08.559 But I think for me, what was really interesting is A, I really wanted to be a place that was founder-led. 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.559 And I think that's something I'll always be a place. 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:13.599 Yeah, uh Mike Cannon Brooks. 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:15.199 That's rare for so long. 00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:16.639 Almost 20 years, right? 00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.199 It's great. 00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:19.519 So again, it's been it's been awesome. 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:28.079 Um, so yeah, I wanted to go somewhere founder-led, but I also like you know, wanted to go to a place where just thinking about kind of where things are going moving forward. 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:36.719 So, you know, uh of course when I was thinking about the opportunity at Lassian, um, I kind of wrote down the things that I'd wanted to kind of see impact. 00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:38.480 And, you know, two that come to mind. 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:50.960 The first one was just really about like being at a place where there's an organization for design to kind of help think about like what an AI first or AI native world is to kind of build that literacy for the team. 00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:59.360 At Lassian Design has always had a really strong reputation of like almost the internal community of all the designers working together. 00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:13.199 You know, and I think I wanted the other opportunity I saw was uh how do you take a company that's had such a rich history of the

past 20 years and propel it into the next 20 or the next two years, five years, right? 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:14.639 Like everything's kind of changing. 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:20.320 So that was like really compelling for me to see like what we can do there. 00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:34.480 And I think, you know, in in my role, I work on Atlassian Rovo, which is our product at GAID, uh, you know, last last October and really kind of thinking about you know, those new like constructs and ways of working. 00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.800 And again, back to tooling workflows and behavior change, right? 00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:46.800 And all the customers and people I talked to in the enterprise are like we were trying to figure out the rest of this decade with with AI. 00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:56.639 And I was just like, wow, I can't think of any better place in Atlassian to be there and make an impact and think about not only the transformation for ourselves, but but our customers too. 00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:58.079 Yeah, that's awesome. 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:11.840 And then how do you think about like building that design team within Atlassian that really just stays curious and doesn't burn out, just given, you know, all of the the changes and challenges ahead, especially in the the AI world that we live in next. 00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:15.119 Yeah, it's uh it's a weird time for design, right? 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:23.360 Where it's kind of like, you know, you look on Twitter and people are always like, Rest in peace, this this discipline, like AI. 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:34.480 And you know, and I think for design, it's trying to think about, you know, the things that we're used to doing, the tools we're used to to using is is now being a little bit automated. 00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:38.239 And like a lot of things like you know, are getting pretty good. 00:40:38.320 --> 00:40:44.559 And like I almost feel like the baseline is you have to at least be able to design as good as a generative AI now. 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:55.519 And I think for me, like what's really exciting is with with gen AI and as and these automations, as these things kind of normalize and you kind of have this baseline of what AI can do. 00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:02.800 We now have to like think about some of the big challenges, what I like to call kind of I call it new original, uh new originality. 00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:12.559 Like, what are the things that we need to we have opportunities to really kind of innovate and create uh that that AI hasn't figured out yet, right? 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:17.760 And that's kind of like the mindset we have on the design team. 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.920 The thing I like at Atlassian too is there's there's different groups of design teams. 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.880 And and I work with Charlie Sutton, our head our head of design. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:26.320 He's someone I've wanted to work with. 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:34.559 So it's been like

uh not only a portfolio of companies, but like a portfolio of design groups too, to really kind of understand that space. 00:41:34.719 --> 00:41:37.360 So that's been that's been really fun, you know, in that regard. 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:41.360 But yeah, I think uh with AI, it's like every design team is trying to figure it out. 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:51.440 And I think uh what's been great is the investment there to use these tools, explore, understand how it's gonna change the constructs of of organizations. 00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.960 It kind of reminds me in the the the early mobile days too. 00:41:55.119 --> 00:42:03.599 You know, in that regard when mobile became it was such a different form factor and there was a lot of playing around and trying to understand like the implications of these things. 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:03.920 Yeah. 00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:04.320 Cool. 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:10.239 What's a new uh like what's an example of a new originality that you've been you know noodling on? 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.679 The honest answer, Rachel. 00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:13.199 I I don't think I've seen it yet. 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.679 You know, like like what are the things and I it may just come over time, right? 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:22.480 I think it's like I mean it could be new, like new, new UI patterns, right? 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.599 So I always tell this story all the time, right? 00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.599 It's like I don't know if he was the first person that created it, but he made it popular. 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:41.199 It's just like uh in the mobile era, you know, there was a developer named Lauren Brichter who was working on this app called Tweety, and he was the one that made that pull to refresh pattern really popular. 00:42:41.599 --> 00:42:44.880 It ended up becoming something adopted at Apple. 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.679 You know, Path was one that really made popular that that floating action button that people kind of remember. 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:58.960 And and I think in design and AI, I kind of wonder like, like, have we seen that pull to refresh moment yet? 00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:00.239 I don't think we have, right? 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:04.159 And I think that's the thing about pushing new originality in that regard. 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:15.280 So, you know, whether it's how we do things, how we make, or, or, you know, not only just design patterns, but but things that kind of introduce something new for industry. 00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:18.960 All right, we're gonna hit you with a few quick fire questions. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:20.639 So say the first thing that comes to mind. 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:21.840 I'll let Rachel kick off. 00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:22.559 Sounds good. 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.119 So what do you think is the most underrated skill for a founder other than design? 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:29.360 We said to go fast, so I gotta go fast. 00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.199 I think the willingness to change your mind. 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.400 And what's a myth about design that drives you crazy? 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:42.960 It's uh just pixels, you know, like design that can design is technical too, you know, it's like so many passes. 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.119 A book, movie, or album that changed the way you lead. 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.719 One of my favorite books is The Humane Interface by Jeff Raskin. 00:43:52.960 --> 00:44:11.440 It's probably behind me somewhere, but just around talking about uh yeah, just kind of um, you know, to me he's Like the the Don Norman of like kind of design engineering, just like really thinking about you know cognitive efficiency and really putting people first and machine systems and more important than ever. 00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:12.239 Awesome. 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:14.000 Best decision you've made in your career? 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:15.440 Not going to grad school. 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:16.639 So nice. 00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:17.519 Yeah. 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:25.039 So when I was trying to get that MFA, couldn't afford to go into grad school and then got a lot of opportunities working on mobile apps. 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:25.760 Nice, nice. 00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:28.400 What's a mindset shift that helped you grow as a leader? 00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.679 Yeah, I think it's um consistent consistency builds trust. 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:36.159 I think uh Polina Maranova, who writes the profile, talks a lot about that. 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:38.639 And I think again, perform, innovate, and grow, right? 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.119 What what Amir would say that consistency is so important as a leader. 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:46.639 That's inspiring me to get started with some sort of writing program. 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:49.519 What's a piece of startup wisdom that you actually disagree with? 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:51.679 Hire great people and get out of the way. 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:54.719 I think that's the worst like advice you can give. 00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:01.920 No matter how great of talent people you you hire, you you need you need to be involved, you need to lead in that regard. 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:02.559 Good. 00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:08.320 Um and before we transition to the last question, I noticed is that is that a Dune board game that you have behind you? 00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:08.800 No. 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:10.559 Um it is a book. 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.719 Wow, that's a big one. 00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:16.800 Yeah, it is called um The Art and Soul of Dune. 00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:17.920 Wow, I love it. 00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:18.880 Yeah. 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:24.239 It's turning into show and tell, but the the one that was most common in my background was was this one. 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:27.280 It's the art and soul Blade Runner 2049. 00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.679 So I figured it was time to to switch a book.

00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.280 So I went I went with Dune. 00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:38.079 Yeah, I didn't realize we were fellow sci-fi lovers, but actually the Dune board game I asked because I'm very addicted to that board game. 00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:39.440 So now I need to buy it. 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:40.880 Yeah, it's great. 00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:41.360 All right. 00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:42.320 So last question. 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:46.239 If you had a magic wand, what's one thing that you you get three wishes? 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:51.360 You can fix one thing for yourself, the startup ecosystem, and the future of product design. 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:53.599 What are your what are the three things you would want? 00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:55.519 My goodness, this is such a tough question. 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:56.480 Loaded. 00:45:56.719 --> 00:45:57.199 Let's see. 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:02.880 For myself, I would the magic wand, I would I would say uh, you know, optimal health. 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:06.400 I think if you want to do this for a long time, you gotta take care of yourself, right? 00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:14.960 And I think I have um, you know, fortunately been in places where these things are addressable and and I think that's so important. 00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:18.320 Like being a founder, it's a marathon, right? 00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:24.159 It's just not maybe it's not your first company, but your tenth company that you need to show up for. 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:25.519 So that longevity. 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:29.280 What was the second one for the startup ecosystem? 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:29.760 Yeah. 00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:41.039 Um and so many wishes, but I think I think for me, what I benefited from was a lot of these, like man, I'm trying to think oh, rocket space. 00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:45.920 That was like a co-working space, like early on in like the early 20s. 00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:54.320 But I think I think what I'm saying is like I'd wave a magic wand so people have like that space in that community to be able to work on those things. 00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.440 Like, you know, it's it's lonely as a founder. 00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:07.199 There's a lot of solo founders down there, just kind of like having that comedian space where people kind of understand, like, and it's not even about like the tech, right? 00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:18.239 But just like being able to talk to other people of like, you know, how hard, um, how hard being a founder can be on your relationship or other things and have that have that support system. 00:47:18.559 --> 00:47:20.719 And then for uh future product design. 00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:22.079 Future product design. 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:34.960 Okay, this might be a spicy one, but I think it's really if I could wave a magic wand, I'd love for the discourse of like the things you hear about design Twitter go away and like focus on the important stuff. 00:47:35.039 --> 00:47:39.360

And you know, these are so many things about I remember telling a lot of people on my team this. 00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:43.920 I was like, you know, there's the there's the designers wanting a seat at the table, right? 00:47:44.000 --> 00:47:47.920 And I'm like, if you keep acting like this, they're gonna put you in the kids' table, right? 00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:52.960 And it's like like really like stop playing the victim, like nobody cares about design. 00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:59.199 It's it's our job to get people to care about design and kind of know what the impact is across the business. 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:07.760 So yeah, I think that's I'd wave that magic wand and for designers to really kind of um, you know, like like that is our job, right? 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.960 Is to kind of like bring that intention and understanding and yeah, maybe not whine about it too much. 00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:14.400 Yeah, less whining. 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:14.800 Yeah. 00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:20.880 We all we all need to complain, but I mean sometimes I'm like, this is like no one's ever gonna listen to us if we act this way. 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:22.239 I'll just react to one thing. 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:30.400 I love that you brought up uh just personal health, just because I I see that, you know, all across executives, high performing employees, founders. 00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:32.800 It's a just a mindset marathon, like you said. 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:40.159 And I feel like people don't realize it until it's too late and stress just builds up and it it it comes out in your body in ways you weren't even expecting. 00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:43.840 And so I think the earlier people can get their minds around that, the better. 00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:44.800 So yeah. 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:45.840 All right, Rachel. 00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:46.400 Go ahead. 00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:46.800 Yeah. 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:47.519 Awesome. 00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:49.920 Well, David, thank you so much for being here. 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.000 Where can people find you and your work online? 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:56.960 I think the best place these days is on my website, just davidhong.com. 00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.920 Of course, my sub stack called Proof of Concept. 00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.480 That's probably the best way to engage. 00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:05.039 Yeah, we can definitely add those in the show notes. 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:05.599 Thank you. 00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:06.079 Yeah. 00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.159 Thanks so much for um coming on today. 00:49:08.239 --> 00:49:09.280 It was so great to have you here. 00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:10.639 Yeah, great chatting with you. 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:11.360 Thanks for having me. 00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:12.639 Yeah, it's awesome to see you. 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:13.679 Thank you so much for coming. 00:49:13.840 --> 00:49:14.880 We'll chat too. 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:16.320 That was such a great conversation. 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:17.920 Amber, what stood out for you? 00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:18.719 Yeah, a lot. 00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:37.119 I probably could have talked to him for another hour, but I think number one, just stylistically as a leader and somebody who's developing his public presence, not only is he authentic and kind of doing it for the right reasons, but I loved what he said about consistency and how that builds trust over time and how it's actually been more of a learned skill than a natural skill for him. 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:49.920 I could totally relate, you know, for me, it feels like a huge undertaking to write a blog post and that that notion of like, I'll do one of these big ones every two years, and that perfectionist in me kind of stops me from being consistent on shorter time frames like that. 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:57.760 And so I think a lot of people feel like that when they see somebody write 243 bro blog posts like he has, they're like, Oh, I could never do that. 00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:02.800 But actually, it sounds like that was something he really had to put work into to become that consistent with. 00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:07.039 And I just respect the fact that, you know, he's still doing it five years later. 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:07.840 Totally. 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:08.400 Yeah. 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:18.320 And then the other thing that stuck out to me was his comment about his transition from healthcare at one medical to working on more SaaS products and enterprise products. 00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:27.440 And it it resonated a lot because at the council, as you know, we invest in, you know, vertical software for industrial sectors and also healthcare. 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:32.320 And I get this question a lot from LPs, especially like why would you invest in those two things side by side? 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:35.039 Like it's so much easier to have specialty in one or the other. 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.840 How, you know, these are totally different things to diligence. 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:41.599 And yes, there are a lot of things that make healthcare unique, as you know. 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:46.159 And certainly even within industrial sectors, each sector kind of has their own nuance. 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:55.440 But I think that is what makes them all common, is that they're all nuanced, they're all complicated, they all involve their own sort of hurdles, whether it's regulatory or other. 00:50:55.599 --> 00:51:02.480 And it all comes down to designing something for, you know, customers and users that aren't really optimizing for what's on their computer. 00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:07.519 They're optimizing for some sort of real world operation or real world task that they're doing. 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:14.800 And so I think that link of like the workflows and tools that he mentioned is so similar to how we look at things at the council. 00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:16.559 So that really resonated for me too. 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:18.079 Yeah, absolutely. 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:25.599 I know the the big thing that he mentioned for me was really related to that, the changing that user behavior. 00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:33.199 Um, I think part of it just again coming from the customer success background, you know, there's always the uh change management that you need to do. 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:41.360 And working with someone who's really skilled at that from like an overall design perspective, um, I think is just so critical. 00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:44.159 You know, I wish I had a design partner like David. 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:44.639 I know. 00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:46.400 When we're thinking through, right? 00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:53.679 Like just things that we're doing in the company and things that we can like shape um in terms of even how we onboard, you know, a new customer. 00:51:53.840 --> 00:51:55.599 So yeah, totally. 00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:02.480 Well, I I mean, I knew this going into the conversation, but even walking away, I can say David is just a perfect example of a first builder. 00:52:02.719 --> 00:52:06.000 He's been on early teams at companies before their success was obvious. 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:09.199 And I feel like with every move he's made, he's gotten stronger and stronger. 00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:12.079 And you can really see that as it comes through now. 00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:17.440 And it seems like he's always showing up early, building the right foundation, but also with humility. 00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:22.159 Like he's not like, hey, I'm gonna come in and just, you know, transform this place overnight. 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:26.159 He's also like humble to understand the stage that the company's in and how they do things. 00:52:26.320 --> 00:52:30.800 So I I'm really grateful that he shared his story with us, and I hope it inspires our audience as well. 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:32.079 Yeah, absolutely. 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:40.800 Well, if you learned something new today, and I I know I have, send this episode to a founder, leave a review, and subscribe to First Builders wherever you get your podcasts. 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:42.320 We'll see you next time.