התמלול המלא של 078 - Experiments that Changed Fire Science pt. 2 - BRE Cardington with Tom Lennon

I think the steel industry saw in Cardington and saw in this idea of whole building behavior, an opportunity for them to demonstrate. 00:05:00.151 --> 00:05:05.172 The inherent performance of the structure compared to the single elements. 00:05:05.172 --> 00:05:13.052 And this is where we maybe started to move away from standard fire testing towards a more sort of holistic, robust approach. 00:05:13.644 --> 00:05:15.625 but their motivations were. 00:05:15.925 --> 00:05:26.476 Commercial, they were looking to increase their market share and particularly in the office medium to high rise office, market, which was what the first building, still building inside carton looked like. 00:05:26.788 --> 00:05:28.732 Um, we had a different objective. 00:05:28.732 --> 00:05:34.851 We were looking to develop fundamental data to understand structural performance in fire. 00:05:34.951 --> 00:05:37.692 And I came from a structure side, not the fire side. 00:05:37.951 --> 00:05:49.651 And I think that was really quite significant cause the people on the fire side, Who had a background in fire dynamics, very clever people, but they didn't really have an understanding of structural engineering. 00:05:49.651 --> 00:05:58.451 And I think bringing together these two disciplines was one of the greatest achievements of Cardington and one which has had some, some legacy, I think. 00:05:58.689 --> 00:05:59.329 it's quite funny. 00:05:59.750 --> 00:06:00.810 Did you say this? 00:06:00.810 --> 00:06:09.612 Movements into understanding the building behavior in fire and, using more advanced ways to demine the, the structural response to fire in, in general. 00:06:10.702 --> 00:06:23.899 When I had an interview with, with Professor Babrauskas some time ago, he told a very similar thing related to 1970s even, that they thought that the computer modeling will soon replace the standard testing. 00:06:24.310 --> 00:06:30.600 Then you positioned around mid nineties, had the same objective and I would say many of, fire research. 00:06:31.225 --> 00:06:36.264 Today still would have the same objective, like standard fire testing is, is is still here. 00:06:36.264 --> 00:06:37.625 It's not going anywhere. 00:06:37.995 --> 00:06:46.767 However, I the performance based, engineering and recognition of structural fire engineering has, has really changed over the course of years. 00:06:47.348 --> 00:06:50.367 Was there even structural fire engineering when you started this? 00:06:50.478 --> 00:06:52.608 Like would people optimize structure for fire? 00:06:52.702 --> 00:06:53.324 no, not really. 00:06:53.394 --> 00:07:01.105 I mean, it, it's quite hard to look back at that time and realize where we were because there's been so much progress made, then and now. 00:07:01.754 --> 00:07:08.291 Um, put our mindset back at that time, um, there wasn't really anybody talking about structural fire engineering. 00:07:08.291 --> 00:07:10.372 There were people who were materials experts. 00:07:11.107 --> 00:07:13.031 Steel in concrete, in timber. 00:07:13.411 --> 00:07:19.391 And there were people, certainly people who were fire experts in terms of fire development compartment, fire dynamics, et cetera. 00:07:20.132 --> 00:07:43.358 But there weren't really, I mean, some of the guys, some of the guys who were involved in the early stages who don't often get the recognition they deserve, um, some of the academics and in particular, we were working with, uh, university of Sheffield In the early stages and, um, Plank Ian Burgess at Sheffield, were really at the forefront of this, of, thinking, um, structural fire engineering. 00:07:44.098 --> 00:07:55.098 But think about it all you like, but what you need, if you're gonna develop design methods, you're gonna develop numerical tools, is validation for those design methods and those tools. 00:07:55.767 --> 00:08:07.314 And that's what we were in a very fortunate position to be able to provide data that could be used to discipline and to validate the tools that came as part of that discipline. 00:08:08.444 --> 00:08:11.692 uh, Let, let's build the timeline of, of this experiments. 00:08:12.273 --> 00:08:22.790 I know the first experiments that happened in 1980s, were related to the behavior of unprotected steel elements, I guess that, that predates your involvement in, in, in the Cardington program, 00:08:23.264 --> 00:08:23.685 Yes. 00:08:23.990 --> 00:08:25.019 or were you, you see. 00:08:25.300 --> 00:08:39.740 when I first arrived, those experiments, the natural fires in large scale compartments, which was a British steel technical and FRS collaborative program that was actually taking place when I arrived at Cardington, but I didn't have any direct involvement. 00:08:40.965 --> 00:08:54.384 I was aware because I was involved in the structural ER codes, I was aware of this work and it was largely to do with validation for the time equivalent and the early parametric approach, which eventually ended up in Eurocode. 00:08:54.967 --> 00:09:12.298 so that was going on, but by the time we started with a steel building, which was the first building that went up inside Cardington, Those experiments were complete and, yeah, we, we moved on looking at structural behavior rather than what was going on there, which was effectively heat transfer validation, 00:09:12.580 --> 00:09:13.190 Mm-hmm. 00:09:13.413 --> 00:09:19.831 So, so then you moved into this, uh, multi-story building, uh, behavior, as I understand correctly. 00:09:20.772 --> 00:09:24.115 And, this is the main thing I wanted to talk about today. 00:09:24.445 --> 00:09:25.674 So to, to give context. 00:09:25.705 --> 00:09:27.934 You've build, multi-story. 00:09:27.934 --> 00:09:29.774 How, how build, how big was it? 00:09:29.774 --> 00:09:30.375 Eight stories. 00:09:30.424 --> 00:09:30.774 Uh, 00:09:30.845 --> 00:09:31.955 It was eight stories. 00:09:32.004 --> 00:09:38.075 It was a modern composite construction, so it was steel frame with, uh,

composite decking. 00:09:38.168 --> 00:09:40.855 and at that, at that point in time, that was the most common. 00:09:41.356 --> 00:09:46.206 Sort of office building type that was being constructed in the city of London and elsewhere. 00:09:46.746 --> 00:09:49.447 And it was designed and built as a real building. 00:09:49.447 --> 00:09:55.407 It wasn't an experimental building, it was designed by, designers, uh, who were practicing engineers. 00:09:56.121 --> 00:10:01.792 It was built by contractors who were doing this day in, day out, and there was nothing special about it. 00:10:01.792 --> 00:10:06.912 So it wasn't a, it wasn't a building designed for a specific purpose in terms of the experiments. 00:10:07.201 --> 00:10:20.317 It was designed to be a typical office building built in composite construction, and, We were, like I say, we were fortunate enough to get the opportunity to work on that and to cause all sorts of damage on the building. 00:10:20.457 --> 00:10:25.118 but uh, it did manage to survive everything we threw at it one way or the other. 00:10:25.231 --> 00:10:27.451 how did you decide, how big will it be? 00:10:27.451 --> 00:10:34.908 Like, so someone came, let's, let's build eight stories and everyone was okay, or, or was there a bigger brainstorming behind the size and the dimensions? 00:10:35.138 --> 00:10:36.898 no, there was a brief, there was a design brief. 00:10:37.392 --> 00:10:43.605 which was based around, a city center development in Bedford, which is the closest town to Cardington. 00:10:43.705 --> 00:10:47.945 But, the, the whole purpose of the large building test facility was to move. 00:10:48.875 --> 00:10:52.264 Towards as close as you could towards reality. 00:10:52.725 --> 00:10:57.105 And that was reality in terms of what you were dealing with structurally. 00:10:57.485 --> 00:11:10.054 But it was also reality in terms of a fire and everything that went around it, including when we did the first, large natural fire experiments, including things like double lazed, windows, and fittings. 00:11:10.075 --> 00:11:14.254 And so, you know, everything has an impact and. 00:11:14.447 --> 00:11:25.914 If you can realistically model what is actually there, rather than just a single element, then you've got a better chance of predicting what's likely to happen in a real fire event. 00:11:25.914 --> 00:11:28.154 So that's, we were learning all the time. 00:11:28.365 --> 00:11:40.485 Um, I think, uh, I think that the process was one, to start from the very small and to work our way up and at each stage in the process we were learning and improving our knowledge. 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:52.480 Structures in fire, in this case still in fire, but we, I shouldn't neglect to mention, we also had a seven story concrete building and a six story timber building within the same facility. 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:58.840 And there were also, uh, experimental programs on fire carried out on those, on those buildings. 00:11:59.282 --> 00:12:00.557 Like at the same time, 00:12:01.087 --> 00:12:02.378 almost sequentially. 00:12:02.981 --> 00:12:10.471 I mean, we've, we completed the main program, collaborative program with British Steel and some partners from Europe on the steel building. 00:12:10.471 --> 00:12:15.956 And then we moved straight onto the uh, European Concrete Building Project, and I think. 00:12:16.731 --> 00:12:17.981 Almost straight away. 00:12:17.981 --> 00:12:23.356 After that, we moved onto the, uh, timber frame, which was a residential, building meant to be a block of flats. 00:12:23.725 --> 00:12:25.528 and yeah, it was really active period. 00:12:25.528 --> 00:12:29.712 there was also the work, the work on the euro codes going on at the same time as well. 00:12:29.712 --> 00:12:30.451 So, yeah, 00:12:30.522 --> 00:12:31.011 this. 00:12:31.067 --> 00:12:34.808 the timber one would be very, very popular research if you carried it today 00:12:34.841 --> 00:12:37.615 It was quite groundbreaking at the time, to be honest with you. 00:12:37.645 --> 00:12:41.836 you know, there were, there are difficulties in all these projects. 00:12:41.927 --> 00:12:47.914 You can't get these things built and you can't carry out work on this scale without the cooperation of industry. 00:12:48.282 --> 00:12:55.461 And so we're working very closely with the steel industry on the steel building, the concrete industry on the concrete building, and the timber industry. 00:12:55.461 --> 00:12:56.341 On the timber building. 00:12:56.601 --> 00:13:12.600 But the trick for an organization like b E is to maintain independence and impartiality, and you can work closely with them to get things achieved, but you can't work too closely and you need to make sure that that is set out from the beginning and that you have different objective. 00:13:13.081 --> 00:13:15.022 And that those objectives are made clear. 00:13:15.912 --> 00:13:19.782 So I think we managed to tread that line quite well, to be honest. 00:13:20.139 --> 00:13:23.988 I, I guess that that is especially important when you start getting negative results. 00:13:23.988 --> 00:13:27.107 Like something goes other way than than someone expected it to be. 00:13:27.162 --> 00:13:27.998 Absolutely. 00:13:27.998 --> 00:13:28.357 Yes. 00:13:28.357 --> 00:13:28.798 Yeah. 00:13:29.057 --> 00:13:33.604 I, mean, I'm working in the research institute as well, and, we share the same issue. 00:13:33.761 --> 00:13:48.004 Well, I know, I know we're talking about carton, but we are still treading that line now and, we, we are still involved in large scale compartment tests, even though we don't have carton and the same issues are still there and the same concerns are still there. 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:49.000 Exactly. 00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:59.559 In my view for the industry, even if you get a negative impact from some of the work we are doing, it's better to find that out now than in a real incident in a real fire. 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:00.039

of course. 00:14:00.230 --> 00:14:01.080 Absolutely. 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:01.399 That. 00:14:02.049 --> 00:14:06.224 So, you, you have built a eight story tall building in your facility. 00:14:06.293 --> 00:14:15.907 I guess the first thing you do is not, setting the biggest fire you can get on the bottom floor and see if it collapses, but you probably want to play with, with the structure a bit. 00:14:16.197 --> 00:14:18.336 So how, how does one, uh, design. 00:14:18.470 --> 00:14:25.634 Such an intensive research program on such a big structure with mind it would be nice for it to not collapse. 00:14:25.634 --> 00:14:27.193 I mean, it didn't collapse eventually, 00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:28.409 No, I didn't. 00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:32.620 No, we did try quite hard, but, um, no matter how hard we tried, it stood up. 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:36.136 you're quite right and in the, in the early stages, the first. 00:14:36.136 --> 00:14:43.754 First tests I was involved in, on the building were using, gasified furnaces at different locations within the building. 00:14:43.754 --> 00:14:52.835 So some of them were external, some of them were internal, looking at the columns, heating up the columns and looking at the stiffness elsewhere and restraint to firm expansion and what that was doing. 00:14:53.134 --> 00:14:55.965 And we were doing it at different levels, of the building. 00:14:55.965 --> 00:14:59.725 So ground floor, third floor, and seventh floor, internal and external. 00:14:59.865 --> 00:15:02.336 Uh, and we were doing it at different stages in the construction. 00:15:02.426 --> 00:15:12.696 So we went there first when it was just a steel frame and a composite deck before the floors were cast, and then we could evaluate the additional stiffness that was provided once the floors were cast. 00:15:13.135 --> 00:15:19.475 but we obviously didn't wanna heat it up so much that we caused permanent damage even before the building was built. 00:15:20.005 --> 00:15:26.333 So we had to plan every stage of the experiments, bearing in mind what was coming in the. 00:15:27.173 --> 00:15:36.038 So in the first test, we limited the temperature of the columns to 500 degrees, to look at the issues of thermal expansion and restraint to thermal expansion. 00:15:36.619 --> 00:15:42.038 But then as we learned more, we got, uh, effectively a little bit braver each time. 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:45.183 And the scale of the fires increased. 00:15:45.354 --> 00:15:51.452 So the first natural fire I was involved in was a compartment, which was nine by six meters in area. 00:15:51.923 --> 00:15:54.513 Uh, the last one was 350 square meters. 00:15:54.942 --> 00:15:56.182 which was half a floor area. 00:15:56.793 --> 00:16:00.503 So in each case we were, like I say, learning as we went along. 00:16:01.070 --> 00:16:12.225 so, so this first test on, on building elements that, that was actually like, what you would do in lab with a little difference that the restrain of the elements is like in real building, not artificial on the furnace. 00:16:12.557 --> 00:16:13.717 Yeah, that's exactly it. 00:16:13.717 --> 00:16:18.038 We're basically, instead of bringing the element to the furnace, we're bringing the furnace to the building. 00:16:18.258 --> 00:16:21.357 And therefore you don't have to have idealized end conditions. 00:16:21.357 --> 00:16:22.837 You've got real end conditions. 00:16:23.347 --> 00:16:27.347 and some of the work that was done by British Steel, the original, uh, restrained beam test. 00:16:27.888 --> 00:16:40.999 They did, was very much that case of, uh, looking at the effect of restrained thermal expansion and contraction in the cooling phase as well, and how that affected connection behavior particularly. 00:16:41.381 --> 00:16:45.451 so yeah, it was very much a case of, build it up gradually. 00:16:45.633 --> 00:16:50.945 but yeah, that idea of keeping the structure real and then using the standard fire. 00:16:51.119 --> 00:16:57.217 Was one of the first examples, before we went on to look at real fire and natural fire behavior. 00:16:57.587 --> 00:16:59.118 Have you seen a different behavior? 00:16:59.118 --> 00:17:03.518 I mean, that's an interesting, I would love to see such an experiments nowadays. 00:17:03.623 --> 00:17:04.373 Me, me too. 00:17:05.289 --> 00:17:14.949 like today, okay, today we, we have this fancy modeling tools much, uh, due to the fact that you've provided validation data for them to be developed. 00:17:15.104 --> 00:17:28.823 but the then 20 some years ago you didn't have this fancy, finite element to method for fire, uh, softwares That must have been one of the first fully restrained building elements in in, they were loaded, right? 00:17:29.374 --> 00:17:30.064 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:30.064 --> 00:17:33.784 The, the building was loaded, um, on all floors. 00:17:34.027 --> 00:17:39.017 we, using sandbags, we had these one time sandbags that we moved around on pallet trucks. 00:17:39.615 --> 00:17:44.344 so yeah, there were realistic loads and they were fire limit state loads that we used. 00:17:44.949 --> 00:17:46.038 That were in place. 00:17:46.088 --> 00:17:53.239 So it was, the building was as, as realistic as, as it certainly for the steel flame building was as realistic as it could possibly be. 00:17:53.508 --> 00:17:56.468 how hard was it to bring the furnace, uh, to the building? 00:17:56.468 --> 00:17:58.188 Because, you know, we were just talking, oh yeah. 00:17:58.188 --> 00:17:59.827 We brought the furnace to the building. 00:17:59.827 --> 00:18:05.894 We we're talking about seven or eight story building in a hangar in the middle of, not a research facility. 00:18:06.515 --> 00:18:08.375 And the equipment you, you've used. 00:18:08.528 --> 00:18:14.768 I would say like, based on my experience with equipment, I have much respect for the amount of equipment installed there. 00:18:14.978 --> 00:18:17.702 So it's not your everyday fire, fire test. 00:18:18.003 -->

00:18:24.693 I mean, the first thing we did was ship lots and lots of equipment from our headquarters down in, uh, in Gaston, up to Bedford. 00:18:24.906 --> 00:18:36.384 and then, one of the things we found when we got the furnaces up where we got the control equipment, the satellite panels, all the cabling, miles and miles of cabling, got everything up there and we realized we didn't have any guess. 00:18:36.874 --> 00:18:39.183 So that was a little bit of an issue. 00:18:39.433 --> 00:18:43.344 Um, so one of the first things we had to do was put in a gas line and run it all the way. 00:18:43.963 --> 00:18:46.913 To the bottom of the hangar, which was where the steel building was. 00:18:47.173 --> 00:18:53.794 And then we didn't have sufficient pressure to, uh, generate the gas pressures we needed at the furnace. 00:18:54.284 --> 00:18:56.457 So we had to put a booster in and get that up. 00:18:56.544 --> 00:19:02.784 but looking back, that was a challenge, but it wasn't as much of a challenge as getting the furnace up on the edge column on the seventh. 00:19:03.398 --> 00:19:06.838 so we had very large cranes, mobile cranes in there. 00:19:07.328 --> 00:19:08.798 Um, but we didn't at that time. 00:19:09.249 --> 00:19:19.778 I don't think I could be retrospectively arrested by the health and safety executive, but, um, at that time we didn't have any scaffolding in place and we didn't use mobile platforms. 00:19:20.429 --> 00:19:27.939 So in the first phase of testing, which was when we didn't have any concrete on the building, just the metal decks, it was very easy to trip over as well. 00:19:28.394 --> 00:19:36.054 The columns came hinged and you basically brought them in around the column, closed them up, and then did the bolts up the side. 00:19:36.273 --> 00:19:46.366 And, the only way we could get the bolts up was by one of my colleagues who's very strong, thankfully, uh, holding my ankles while I was draped over the side with a spanner and tightened, tightened them up. 00:19:46.567 --> 00:19:48.646 That's seven stories up on the floor. 00:19:48.826 --> 00:19:57.071 so yeah, I mean, I, I certainly wouldn't do anything like that now, but that was, Issues we face, we were faced with because none, none of us, to be honest. 00:19:57.071 --> 00:19:58.471 And no, nobody else had done it. 00:19:58.471 --> 00:20:02.719 But no, none of us had been involved in work on that scale in terms of fire testing. 00:20:03.098 --> 00:20:04.769 so it was, it was new to all of us. 00:20:04.898 --> 00:20:11.409 Um, the second phase, we bought a big, um, mobile platform with us and it was much easier, But, um, you live and learn. 00:20:11.448 --> 00:20:16.356 I, I have similar stories, but I'm much more liable than, than you for, for 1990. 00:20:16.356 --> 00:20:19.676 So I will choose to not, not shed them in gear. 00:20:20.946 --> 00:20:21.436 . 00:20:20.946 --> 00:20:21.436 Yeah. 00:20:21.576 --> 00:20:27.146 But, uh, that seems to be a shared mentality between a fire scientists who really love what they're doing. 00:20:27.717 --> 00:20:32.333 Uh, how many people was involved in that, dozens, hundreds. 00:20:32.798 --> 00:20:38.489 No, no, I, I worked with a very small group, but a, a very, accomplished group of guys. 00:20:38.618 --> 00:20:46.848 So I had a couple of guys working, for me who were basically involved in cutting and drilling and, fixing and lifting and shifting. 00:20:46.848 --> 00:20:56.548 I had one guy who worked with me for years who was, um, in charge of the instrumentation and he was absolutely fantastic cuz it's difficult to appreciate in this building. 00:20:56.568 --> 00:21:03.108 Say we were testing one column, then we were instrumenting that column on every floor. 00:21:03.564 --> 00:21:12.606 and a column one bay away in each direction on every floor with strain gauges, top and bottom, high temperature strain gauges in the area. 00:21:12.606 --> 00:21:19.406 We were heating normal strain gauges, outside displacement transducers, and that was without any temperature measurement. 00:21:19.696 --> 00:21:22.606 So, um, and rotation transducers as well. 00:21:22.606 --> 00:21:31.011 So the, the actual logistical issues were enormous and we were very small, but very, Very efficient, group working together. 00:21:31.071 --> 00:21:33.291 And we worked there for about 10 years, to be honest. 00:21:33.382 --> 00:21:35.486 So, um, we were quite good at it by the end. 00:21:36.002 --> 00:21:42.696 I guess even data management would, would be a hell I, I see it be a trouble if I, if I was to design this today. 00:21:43.076 --> 00:21:50.202 I would struggle with, data management, data logging, even with bottom computers and fancy little data loggers that you take, 00:21:50.368 --> 00:21:50.858 Yeah, 00:21:51.053 --> 00:21:52.563 to your pocket and, and, go 00:21:52.749 --> 00:21:53.828 our ones were heavy. 00:21:53.828 --> 00:21:55.429 They were, uh, quite big. 00:21:55.429 --> 00:21:59.981 But we used, uh, we used a series so you could slave different, Additions to the main log up. 00:22:00.022 --> 00:22:05.862 And we had, but we had typically around about a thousand channels of data, uh, for each test we did. 00:22:06.402 --> 00:22:16.566 And, all that data had to be analyzed afterwards, and needed to be, secure, and identified so we could identify the position of every single instrument. 00:22:16.586 --> 00:22:20.965 And yeah, it was, it was quite an achievement, particularly back in, at that time. 00:22:21.096 --> 00:22:24.977 any video recordings of these fires or, or, was it not popular back then? 00:22:25.146 --> 00:22:31.977 Uh, yes, they were, we had professional video recording done at the time, but uh, that was all done on vhs. 00:22:32.181 --> 00:22:33.730 so I dunno what happened to it. 00:22:33.730 --> 00:22:47.035 I mean, we worked alongside British Steel and I think they, probably made more effort than we did, uh, to actually capture uh, the video images because, you

know, afterwards there was the idea of selling what you've done effectively and taking this out on the road. 00:22:47.204 --> 00:22:54.755 Um, I used to go, I remember going to one meeting in, I think it's Dub near Manchester Airport, and had to travel with a television and a vcr. 00:22:55.404 --> 00:23:00.914 Um, so I needed like a massive car just to get the, the tele in the video record doing. 00:23:01.174 --> 00:23:02.474 But I don't, I dunno what's happened. 00:23:02.474 --> 00:23:05.862 I've, I've still got some, uh, video tape, but, I dunno what's happened to the. 00:23:06.675 --> 00:23:11.935 in my office I have a video cassette from BRE with a compartment fire test. 00:23:11.935 --> 00:23:19.576 And I was like, I've shared that image on Twitter some time ago, and people were like, oh my God, this is the holy grail of of teaching fire. 00:23:20.290 --> 00:23:22.641 So, yeah, you can, you can get a lot of Vs. 00:23:22.874 --> 00:23:33.993 all videos and, and today we learned, uh, when doing our large scale experiments in modern times, we, we really appreciate the knowledge you get by just observing and recording multiple angles. 00:23:34.253 --> 00:23:38.679 You, you can really learn a lot from just this, uh, video image. 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:42.089 I think structurally it's the most important thing actually, to be honest. 00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:47.529 I mean, we've just finished, this is slightly off kilter, but we've just finished, uh, fire experiment we did last month. 00:23:47.549 --> 00:23:55.730 And in terms of the evaluation, the insulation, we need, the temperature measurements for, but really everything else you can, uh, do through visual observation. 00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:56.049 So, 00:23:56.332 --> 00:23:57.575 it's so, so powerful. 00:23:57.964 --> 00:23:59.545 I'm great that you did record. 00:23:59.575 --> 00:24:04.944 I haven't really seen much recordings from Coton, so I wondered, but it is good to know that they are there. 00:24:04.944 --> 00:24:09.904 Maybe we should send some Indiana Jones to the British Steel Archives and then dig them out and, 00:24:09.955 --> 00:24:10.566 Indeed. 00:24:10.566 --> 00:24:10.806 Yeah. 00:24:10.806 --> 00:24:10.965 Yeah. 00:24:10.965 --> 00:24:17.104 I mean, we used to, at Brv we used to have our own, AV department, and they were, they were professionals, you know what I mean? 00:24:17.104 --> 00:24:19.743 So, um, they, they, the quality of it would've been very good. 00:24:20.099 --> 00:24:20.589 Nice. 00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:21.022 Okay. 00:24:21.306 --> 00:24:25.663 so let's move from the furnace test into natural fires. 00:24:26.153 --> 00:24:34.982 So, so tell me what was the reason you wanted to see natural fires in this multistory buildings and how did you plan out the, the experiment on its own? 00:24:35.469 --> 00:24:37.858 I mean, I think that side of it is, quite clear. 00:24:37.858 --> 00:24:46.791 I kind of mentioned in the early days we were working alongside our colleagues at British Steel and there was also a partnership with, um, European Common Steel community. 00:24:46.902 --> 00:24:48.751 I think it's, uh, RFCs now. 00:24:49.215 --> 00:24:51.516 but there was a European project involved. 00:24:51.898 --> 00:24:58.298 Their motivation was mainly commercial, to sell more steel, to make the steel industry more competitive. 00:24:58.638 --> 00:25:02.895 Our main objective was to understand structural behavior in fire. 00:25:03.115 --> 00:25:10.375 And to do that We had quite a good understanding of structural behavior cuz that was our background, but we needed to understand fire. 00:25:11.276 --> 00:25:15.135 And, this was something for compartment fire dynamics. 00:25:15.226 --> 00:25:18.816 It was reasonably well understood, but the impact on the structure wasn't. 00:25:19.061 --> 00:25:27.321 but from our side on the structural side, at b e, we didn't have much experience of dealing with fire, looking at design fire parameters. 00:25:28.071 --> 00:25:33.612 And I learned quite a lot from some colleagues at FRS at the time Fire research station. 00:25:34.352 --> 00:25:39.288 But what we were trying to do was look at, effectively realistic fires. 00:25:39.548 --> 00:25:42.932 And most fires, don't actually develop, post flashover. 00:25:42.932 --> 00:25:44.211 Most of our fires are. 00:25:44.622 --> 00:25:59.346 dealt with in the early stages and we had, we had one situation where we, we built this realistic compartment for the first corner fire test, which was a nine nine by six meter compartment with, plasterboard linings and double lazed windows. 00:26:00.096 --> 00:26:01.326 um, so we lit the fire. 00:26:01.817 --> 00:26:06.804 Um, we had a, I think an opening, but a very small opening and surprise, surprise. 00:26:06.923 --> 00:26:10.817 Basically the fire went out and, um, we didn't have sufficient oxygen. 00:26:11.679 --> 00:26:23.433 because we'd had discussions with colleagues, we were aware that this was potentially going to happen, and we'd spoken to the fire brigade who were on, on hand at the time and said, okay, if we get to this stage, what you're gonna do is break the windows. 00:26:23.936 --> 00:26:32.861 And I dunno if you've ever tried to break a double lazed window with a, a fireman ladder free story up in, uh, in the air, it's Not. 00:26:32.861 --> 00:26:33.020 that. 00:26:33.020 --> 00:26:33.300 easy. 00:26:33.790 --> 00:26:43.901 So I was sitting there thinking, watching this ladder bounce off a window, bang, bang, bang, thinking, oh my God, I've just wasted quarter of a million pound or whatever it is, and we're gonna get nothing out. 00:26:44.586 --> 00:26:46.925 But thankfully they did manage to break a pain. 00:26:47.145 --> 00:26:49.296 And then we had, the fire developed itself. 00:26:49.296 --> 00:26:51.296 It was sufficient oxygen, it was preheated. 00:26:51.385 --> 00:26:54.695 We had a rapid flashover, and then we had a full scale fire test. 00:26:54.796 -->

00:26:58.695 But that was my first experience of, uh, natural fires. 00:26:59.115 --> 00:27:06.935 And now I always make sure that, there's plenty of ventilation and that we don't end up in that situation, uh, a second time. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.373 I would like to, to scout now, what was the, background at the time? 00:27:11.663 --> 00:27:14.903 In the documents about the, design of these experiments. 00:27:14.903 --> 00:27:23.384 I've read that the test was very influenced, by Broad Gate fire, which was, uh, building fire in which the building did not, did not collapse. 00:27:23.604 --> 00:27:33.324 But then again, some years ago there was this famous collapse, and I, I think there were other buildings that, that like progressively collapse in. 00:27:33.953 --> 00:27:39.384 So I guess it, it was not obvious if a building can or cannot collapse in fire as a, just an effort of a 00:27:39.489 --> 00:27:39.979 Yeah. 00:27:40.344 --> 00:27:41.304 the Broadgate survived. 00:27:41.374 --> 00:27:49.304 I think Board Gate was, as far as British Steel were concerned, and, and the European steel industry, I guess was the, uh, the critical issue. 00:27:49.304 --> 00:27:51.384 The board gate fire I think was in 1990. 00:27:51.590 --> 00:27:55.628 so that was just predated what we were doing, uh, here at Cardington. 00:27:55.673 --> 00:28:04.564 But if you relied on standard fire resistance, Test data, then you would've predicted a collapse of Broadgate and the issue. 00:28:04.564 --> 00:28:13.300 Cause Broadgate, I'm sure, many of your listeners will know, but, uh, it was a fire that happened during construction and before the fire protection was installed. 00:28:13.458 --> 00:28:14.807 So you had unprotected. 00:28:15.189 --> 00:28:17.269 beams and columns, unprotected connections. 00:28:17.648 --> 00:28:28.726 and although you did have significant defamation, you had no collapse, and the idea was that the inherent resistance of the structure was different to the inherent resistance of a single element. 00:28:28.982 --> 00:28:30.232 And I think there was some. 00:28:30.299 --> 00:28:40.688 some people with a lot of foresight at British Steel at the time was a chap called Jeff Robinson, who was, uh, fundamental in developing the program, from the British Steel side. 00:28:41.188 --> 00:28:49.661 And I think they saw Broadgate as a, an opportunity to demonstrate this whole building behavior, which I mean, there's two sides to hold. 00:28:49.820 --> 00:28:50.260 Building behavior. 00:28:50.260 --> 00:28:52.421 I think it's very important to recognize this. 00:28:52.421 --> 00:28:53.631 You've got the, the be. 00:28:54.145 --> 00:28:56.435 Aspect of restraint. 00:28:56.439 --> 00:29:01.848 you've got alternative load carrying mechanisms such as tenile membrane action, but it's not the only one. 00:29:02.326 --> 00:29:11.419 but you've also got alternative failure mechanisms, which maybe could be things like connection failure because we don't test connections in standard fire testing. 00:29:12.068 --> 00:29:14.378 So, so you've got to look for both. 00:29:14.489 --> 00:29:17.979 I think you have to look for the beneficial effects, but you've also got bear in. 00:29:18.423 --> 00:29:23.513 That if you look at a real situation, there are detrimental aspects to whole building behavior as well. 00:29:24.094 --> 00:29:32.294 And like I say, we, we were, we were literally learning as we went along because we were starting from a very, very low base in terms of understanding. 00:29:32.500 --> 00:29:38.911 But the kind of, speed with which we learn, because of this work was, was really something quite incredible. 00:29:38.941 --> 00:29:39.391 I think. 00:29:39.441 --> 00:29:51.327 So by the end of the process, by the time they closed, Cardington, I think we developed to be, uh, effectively have a very good idea of how real buildings behave in real fires. 00:29:51.634 --> 00:29:55.125 and, how many experiments in the multistory you've burnt 00:29:55.259 --> 00:30:04.893 Oh, well, I mean in, in the, on the steel building, there were, I think in the original, scope, there were like six large experiments, four of which were natural fires. 00:30:05.153 --> 00:30:15.452 But then we came back later, uh, in 2003 and we did another one, which was, um, with, uh, university of Prague and, some guys from Portugal as a collaborative program. 00:30:16.051 --> 00:30:17.909 but then if you were to include. 00:30:18.181 --> 00:30:23.211 uh, the natural fire safety concept test, which weren't on the steel building, but were on the same floor area. 00:30:23.608 --> 00:30:25.817 there were another eight full skull tests there. 00:30:26.268 --> 00:30:31.624 Um, we also tested two large, houses, steel frame houses on the same area. 00:30:32.163 --> 00:30:36.683 And we tested, uh, some ho core, uh, floor slabs in the same area. 00:30:36.983 --> 00:30:41.564 And then we went to the concrete building and we did, uh, large scale testing on the concrete. 00:30:42.253 --> 00:30:46.193 And then we went to the timber building and we did large scale testing on the timber building. 00:30:46.284 --> 00:30:50.314 So, and we did additional work on, on, uh, modular systems. 00:30:50.763 --> 00:30:52.673 Um, so it went on and on to be honest, 00:30:52.823 --> 00:30:59.733 It sounds like a lot of hard work, but I'm kind jealous to, to hear, uh, someone who's given the, the opportunity work with so many 00:30:59.907 --> 00:31:11.631 I feel, I feel very fortunate Wojciech, uh, to have been there at that time with those people who gave me the opportunity and gave me the responsibility to, be involved in that work. 00:31:11.631 --> 00:31:15.189 I feel very, very fortunate, place at the right time. 00:31:15.277 --> 00:31:15.767 Okay. 00:31:15.767 --> 00:31:22.446 So moving from the furnaces to natural fires, how, how did you define the natural, what was the, the source of the natural fire? 00:31:22.446 --> 00:31:25.240 I, I see cribs on

pictures, so, so I guess that was it. 00:31:25.394 --> 00:31:30.807 uh, generally timber, cribs, cause they're quite, the behavior's quite predictable and we know what we're gonna get. 00:31:31.233 --> 00:31:38.443 I mean, it's a way of getting, as far as we are concerned, it's a way of getting the temperatures you want into the structural members. 00:31:38.443 --> 00:31:39.203 That's all it is. 00:31:39.203 --> 00:31:40.324 It's a means of loading. 00:31:40.324 --> 00:31:46.483 That's how we saw it, and that was the difference between us and the fire scientists who proceeded us to us. 00:31:46.483 --> 00:31:48.844 We considered the fire as a form of loading. 00:31:49.388 --> 00:31:52.969 And then how does the structure actually react to that load? 00:31:53.538 --> 00:32:00.393 So we were looking to provide a realistic, but also predictable, thermal input to the structure. 00:32:01.093 --> 00:32:04.618 And we kind of relied on the, the design methods for. 00:32:05.403 --> 00:32:09.203 Compartment time, temperature response that were available at the time. 00:32:09.419 --> 00:32:15.979 and we actually, I think we actually helped to refine those methods as we, proceeded with the experimental work. 00:32:16.239 --> 00:32:19.060 But the natural fire test was, something which was. 00:32:19.806 --> 00:32:31.526 Realistic in that it was not a standard fire exposure, it had a cooling phase, it had a, um, a growth phase, a very rapid growth phase generally, and it had a steady burning phase. 00:32:32.016 --> 00:32:37.086 So yeah, the idea was to have something that was much more realistic than the standard fire exposure. 00:32:37.416 --> 00:32:42.402 And, and did you ignite like one crib and then allow it to naturally spread, through the room or, 00:32:42.576 --> 00:32:46.507 What we did, I mean, the biggest one was the 350 square meter one. 00:32:46.517 --> 00:32:59.326 Uh, what we did was we connected all the cribs using, uh, channels, which the channels fiber strips, which were soaked in powerin, and then we'd light the powerin strips because we had quite a number of cribs in there. 00:32:59.598 --> 00:33:04.848 I've actually seen some of the videos from a large compartment fire test, and it's a little bit frightening when you see the video. 00:33:05.118 --> 00:33:13.955 I was in there with a colleague and we were walking together down the line, just lighting strips as we went along, and then eventually we walk out the door and the door sealed. 00:33:14.175 --> 00:33:24.071 But when you see, which I wasn't aware of at the time when you see the flames coming over your head, because it's a very rapid fire development and, uh, yeah, if I'd known what was happening, I would've moved a bit quicker. 00:33:24.291 --> 00:33:31.401 But, um, but yeah, we, we, we, we are always, even nowadays, we are looking to, cut short the growth phase. 00:33:31.931 --> 00:33:36.780 So, the early stages of fire are massively important for people who study life safety. 00:33:37.336 --> 00:33:38.455 Massively important. 00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:43.578 but for people who are interested in structural response, the early stages are not so important. 00:33:44.128 --> 00:33:48.219 What matters is when you get to temperatures that are gonna have an impact on the structure. 00:33:48.588 --> 00:33:53.298 So we are trying to accelerate that growth phase to an almost instantaneous flashover. 00:33:54.022 --> 00:34:18.284 I would actually challenge that with the modern approach, the traveling fires and stuff like that, where we see, exposing part of the structure to a preheating conditions where a part of the structure might be exposed to 200, 300 degrees for a prolonged amount of time, especially if protected with, with, um, typical means under this fire situation where, where, when the fire eventually comes to that, to that point. 00:34:18.335 --> 00:34:24.684 So I, obviously the traveling fires is something that had happened in, let's say last 10 or 12 years. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.518 Well, no, I mean, I, traveling fires either happen or they don't happen. 00:34:28.518 --> 00:34:31.027 They weren't invented in the last 10 or 12 weeks. 00:34:31.068 --> 00:34:33.068 it's, either a phenomena or, or it's not. 00:34:33.068 --> 00:34:35.469 I mean, I, I, I have certain views myself. 00:34:35.469 --> 00:34:39.068 I think what we were looking to do was to provide. 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:41.528 A fire that was realistic. 00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:46.528 Now, that realistic fire will change if you change the geometry of the compartment. 00:34:46.978 --> 00:35:01.208 So if you have something like the natural fires in large scale compartments work, which you uh mentioned earlier, where you've got a very long effectively corridor with a ventilation condition only at one end, then I have absolutely no doubt that you'll have a traveling fire. 00:35:01.208 --> 00:35:07.449 But that's a function of the ventilation condition and the geometry and possibly the, uh, ignition source. 00:35:07.568 --> 00:35:14.228 it's not necessarily something which is going to happen in all cases, uh, where it's not gonna happen in all cases. 00:35:14.237 --> 00:35:14.947 We know that. 00:35:15.418 --> 00:35:19.577 and I think we are not sure at all about where the transition is. 00:35:19.972 --> 00:35:21.800 so for me, if you were looking to. 00:35:22.628 --> 00:35:26.909 Evaluate a response of a building, which was a very long, narrow corridor. 00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:32.349 Then you put in a fire that is like that and, and you set light to it and what you get is what you get. 00:35:32.518 --> 00:35:34.268 If you get a traveling fire, fine. 00:35:34.358 --> 00:35:37.713 If you get a, a wand D post flashover compartment, it's fine. 00:35:37.963 --> 00:35:42.463 Uh, but I, don't know enough to know where that transition is, and I'm not sure who does. 00:35:42.590 --> 00:35:47.007 of course, I don't think anyone knows exactly where, where the transition is.

00:35:47.336 --> 00:35:52.244 Uh, I, that's the reason why we have ongoing research on so many places around the globe. 00:35:52.244 --> 00:35:59.012 But at the moment, what I wanted to point out is, is that well, There's an evolution, you know, of, of our knowledge. 00:35:59.012 --> 00:36:01.199 And, your piece was an important part. 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:10.050 In the middle of it, we, we we're still evolving and maybe someone in 30 years in holographic podcast will say, oh, these guys did very primitive, you know, methods. 00:36:10.050 --> 00:36:14.405 and now we have, so now we finally understand the structure of behavior, right? 00:36:15.016 --> 00:36:16.746 you've, uh, started with. 00:36:17.541 --> 00:36:17.981 Standard fire. 00:36:18.112 --> 00:36:20.978 So natural fire is a, a major, major improvement. 00:36:20.998 --> 00:36:22.858 How did you control the ventilation? 00:36:22.858 --> 00:36:30.681 Because I know a lot of effort was, I think it was the later tests in which you were assessing the natural fires in terms of, how they rank 00:36:30.768 --> 00:36:34.449 Yeah, I mean, it, it depended on, effectively, it depends on the job. 00:36:34.458 --> 00:36:43.429 So the early ones, we didn't really control, the ventilation at all because we were looking to get something which was realistic. 00:36:43.429 --> 00:36:54.155 However, when British Steel did their natural fire, or the first one, they actually had a, um, a screen which was movable so they could alter the ventilation condition. 00:36:54.155 --> 00:36:56.516 So they had one ventilation condition. 00:36:56.775 --> 00:36:57.755 For ignition. 00:36:58.215 --> 00:37:11.076 And then once you'd actually developed the fire, they changed that ventilation condition to follow a specific curve because they had a slightly different objective to us and they were looking to generate particular temperatures in the steel. 00:37:11.596 --> 00:37:24.688 I think for the work we did for a validation of the parametric approach the Eurocode, We had ventilation condition was something, we was one of the parameters we were looking to investigate. 00:37:25.137 --> 00:37:32.003 So we had different ventilation conditions within fixing all the other parameters, to try and ascertain what that was. 00:37:32.003 --> 00:37:36.923 So in that case, obviously we are manipulating the ventilation for a specific reason. 00:37:37.028 --> 00:37:43.894 but in the first national test, you would just like open the window to have oxygen inside to ignite it, and then they would fall out. 00:37:43.894 --> 00:37:45.934 Or you started with a completely open wall. 00:37:46.251 --> 00:37:57.416 I dunno if I've mentioned this one already on the discussion, but we did have the, uh, issue with our first, compartment test where it was double glazed window and had to end up with the fire brigade breaking that window. 00:37:57.416 --> 00:38:00.657 We were aware that that was, um, a potential issue cause we. 00:38:00.858 --> 00:38:06.108 Spoken to colleagues in FRS who were more, at that time, more expert in, in fire development. 00:38:06.108 --> 00:38:08.108 And they probably said, well, you need some ventilation. 00:38:08.128 --> 00:38:11.509 And, uh, say, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we wanna do this cause this is how it is. 00:38:11.648 --> 00:38:14.829 And there were two kind of conflicting, uh, aims. 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.268 So we started with one way, but we said to the fire brigade, if this happens, can you break the window? 00:38:19.268 --> 00:38:20.668 And they said, yes, we can. 00:38:20.728 --> 00:38:21.789 And that's what happened. 00:38:21.793 --> 00:38:24.405 But then the rest of the windows would be damaged by the fire. 00:38:24.405 --> 00:38:37.481 Yeah, once you had that initial, cuz you had a preheated compartment effectively, once you had a fairly small influx of, uh, incoming air, it quickly took off and the whole lot came out and they were aluminum windows, uh, frame. 00:38:37.481 --> 00:38:39.762 So they just melted and the whole frame came out. 00:38:40.148 --> 00:38:43.909 But yeah, I mean, other situations we've had the large compartment tests. 00:38:43.909 --> 00:38:52.945 We had I think a third of each, elevation that was un glazed, and then two thirds that was glazed on either side, to represent an opening condition. 00:38:52.945 --> 00:38:56.418 But we know, the behavior of fire of glass in fire is. 00:38:57.134 --> 00:38:58.713 Unpredictable, to be honest. 00:38:58.934 --> 00:39:01.570 And, it can vary during the course of a fire. 00:39:01.851 --> 00:39:04.791 and were you looking also to the external effects of the fire? 00:39:04.862 --> 00:39:11.592 I don't know the, the extent of, of external flaming or the damage to the bi forat or related to that or not. 00:39:11.954 --> 00:39:24.001 No, at this stage and for some years after we'd finished at Cardington, I don't think there was much effort expended at all to look at the, impact of external fires in terms of cladding fires. 00:39:24.081 --> 00:39:28.271 There were issues to do with, external flame spread away from a building. 00:39:29.141 --> 00:39:34.012 And we were measuring in some of the experiments, we were measuring heat, flu, away from a compartment. 00:39:34.061 --> 00:39:47.175 So that was a factor that was considered, but I think it wasn't, um, unfortunately it wasn't until many years later that there was a, a proper, attempt to bring together fire engineers and structural engineers on external fire. 00:39:47.525 --> 00:39:53.054 there were a lot of research questions anyway, so I guess you had your hands, uh, full of work anyway. 00:39:53.117 --> 00:39:53.396 yes. 00:39:53.396 --> 00:39:55.797 I mean, we were starting from scratch basically. 00:39:55.797 --> 00:39:59.996 And, and it seems strange cause it, it's, it's a long time ago, but it's not that long ago. 00:40:00.206 --> 00:40:11.753 but the actual state of knowledge in terms of structural fire engineering, not, not

fire dynamics and not structural engineering, but bringing the two together, um, it was kind of evolutionary to be honest. 00:40:12.150 --> 00:40:12.639 Okay. 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:20.869 And between the tests, let's say I, I see this hugely displaced beams and slabs actually massively displaced but they are still there. 00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:27.550 Uh, were you trying to fix the structure between the experiments or you just move the fire to another location in the building? 00:40:27.550 --> 00:40:29.909 How, how did you approach the, the, structural damage 00:40:29.931 --> 00:40:35.057 Yeah, I mean, uh, I think I mentioned before there was an incremental thing, so we're gradually getting more serious. 00:40:35.057 --> 00:40:36.458 We're gradually getting larger. 00:40:36.748 --> 00:40:43.257 So, um, we didn't start off with the biggest fire cause we might have been in a problem, but we did also move around on the steel building. 00:40:43.257 --> 00:40:48.192 We did move around different locations and that was kind of planned originally. 00:40:48.371 --> 00:41:01.652 when we came to do the final test in 2003, which we ended up with the biggest defamations, actually I think a meter deflection on the floor slab, that's a meter deflection and a slab that's spanning nine, nine meters. 00:41:02.141 --> 00:41:05.612 So, you know, that's, that's you, you're going downhill like, like this, you know? 00:41:05.981 --> 00:41:07.572 Um, yeah. 00:41:08.072 --> 00:41:14.092 And, and when it came to doing that one, there weren't too many areas left that were unaffected. 00:41:14.141 --> 00:41:17.211 So, um, we weren't exactly spoke for choice about where we. 00:41:17.742 --> 00:41:19.163 and the building was still standing. 00:41:19.163 --> 00:41:19.643 Beautiful. 00:41:19.932 --> 00:41:20.282 Uh, 00:41:20.391 --> 00:41:22.632 yeah, it still was Uh, when, when we left 00:41:22.737 --> 00:41:23.097 okay. 00:41:23.240 --> 00:41:30.425 let's talk a bit about the effect this, uh, research had because you have done it not, not only for fun. 00:41:30.425 --> 00:41:34.260 As you've mentioned multiple times, you contrary to the industry. 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:40.380 You wanted to understand the, the behavior of the building in, in, in real fires, natural fires. 00:41:40.920 --> 00:41:49.480 First of all, which gap you wanted to feel and, and you think in your opinion you have successfully filled the best with with these tests? 00:41:49.643 --> 00:41:57.987 Yeah, I mean, I, I was aware of what the, uh, the original objectives were of, The programs I was involved in and the European programs. 00:41:58.304 --> 00:42:01.722 and a lot of that I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't for a start. 00:42:01.722 --> 00:42:04.961 We didn't set out to determine a new design method. 00:42:05.114 --> 00:42:12.001 we were out there to understand what was happening, but we were specifically looking to provide validation for numerical. 00:42:12.956 --> 00:42:32.141 And I think on side, we achieved the objectives and I think, we probably superseded our objectives in terms of what actually came out in terms of the understanding, in terms of the new design methods, particularly for, uh, Uh, composite construction and, and tensile membrane action. 00:42:32.722 --> 00:42:35.057 And also it's, again, it's hard to go back. 00:42:35.057 --> 00:42:43.137 When I was involved in the first natural fire expo, we had some of our colleagues in Europe did some, uh, modeling to predict the fire behavior. 00:42:43.626 --> 00:42:48.097 And, they came out with peak temperatures of, uh, 600 degrees in the compartment. 00:42:48.380 --> 00:42:51.760 And, uh, now you probably, yourself, you think, well, that's ludicrous. 00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.000 You know, it's, it's gonna be somewhere around a thousand, maybe above, whatever. 00:42:56.000 --> 00:42:59.440 But, um, we didn't have anything to judge that by at the time. 00:43:00.010 --> 00:43:00.760 Um, and. 00:43:01.635 --> 00:43:09.474 By the end, we'd produce sufficient data for, not just for structural models, but also for thermal models. 00:43:10.014 --> 00:43:26.012 And the work we did, I think on the validation for, the parametric approach in newer code one, was also something which confirmed some of the problems that had been in the past and the importance of things like, uh, lining material. 00:43:26.358 --> 00:43:36.641 on fire development and, the importance of maybe different types of fuels and how they're, plastics and, and timber combination of timber and plastics, how they're evolved. 00:43:37.052 --> 00:43:41.442 So we were doing both on the structural side and on the fire development side. 00:43:41.442 --> 00:43:43.152 I think we made some really. 00:43:43.253 --> 00:43:44.853 great achievements, to be honest. 00:43:44.853 --> 00:43:47.293 And it was a, you know, it's a collaborative effort. 00:43:47.293 --> 00:43:49.052 There were lots of people involved in this. 00:43:49.376 --> 00:43:55.119 nothing like this happens, you know, unless there's, a lot of people involved and a lot of people contributing. 00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:00.164 And, uh, I, I worked with some fantastic people over the, the period I was working at Cardington and. 00:44:00.248 --> 00:44:11.318 for the parametric model, you've not only validated it, but you've, considerably, expanded the limits of its use because, uh, you could apply it to 500 square meters. 00:44:11.527 --> 00:44:17.664 you've changed the installation, you changed the opening factors for which the model was validated for. 00:44:17.730 --> 00:44:21.313 Yeah, I mean, I, I you are based in Poland, I presume? 00:44:21.313 --> 00:44:42.398 Wojciech I mean, uh, we have in the UK we have our own national annex as well, and there are still some areas where we have, Some differences of opinion between those in Europe and those in the uk and I think it's important to have, maintain that expertise within the individual countries so we can have some choice, uh,

in these areas. 00:44:42.398 --> 00:44:45.878 I think where we think we maybe have a slightly better way of doing it. 00:44:46.186 --> 00:44:53.485 And for the foundation of these structural modeling software, I guess you guys were delivering the data and experiments and with other groups. 00:44:53.485 --> 00:44:56.853 Can you tell us about, uh, who was doing that and, and 00:44:56.974 --> 00:45:14.088 I mean, at the time I think we were working with, uh, TNO and ct CTICM um, and certainly, uh, what was our bed or now, And all those guys were involved in numerical modeling, some of them using Diana, I think, British Steel. 00:45:14.088 --> 00:45:20.128 And, uh, when the University of Edinburgh came on board in the latter stages, I think they were involved using Abacus. 00:45:20.878 --> 00:45:29.927 but we were also, the formulation behind your code was also done by the same guys who were involved in developing Sathi. 00:45:30.297 --> 00:45:38.512 So, Like I say, it was, it was both on the structural end and the thermal side that I think we were providing validation across the board. 00:45:38.512 --> 00:45:42.875 And this, you know, one way or another, all this, all this data was made available. 00:45:43.244 --> 00:45:47.474 Um, I think British Steel puts some big efforts into, uh, making sure that this. 00:45:47.907 --> 00:45:51.347 data was made public, um, so anybody could use it. 00:45:51.347 --> 00:45:57.920 And so even if you weren't, directly involved with somebody with uh, a model, then somebody with a model could use our data, 00:45:58.269 --> 00:46:07.110 I will link, uh, in the description to that because it's, I, I find it actually astounding that 20 some years after this happened, it still is, uh, shared. 00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:08.269 It still is available. 00:46:08.809 --> 00:46:11.469 The data is, It's in a pristine form. 00:46:11.469 --> 00:46:12.639 It's very, clingy. 00:46:12.699 --> 00:46:18.585 You don't wonder where this transducer was a, there's a lot, lot of effort in labeling everything. 00:46:18.615 --> 00:46:24.682 I, I really appreciate that as someone who's doing, uh, fire experiments because That's the annoying part of the job. 00:46:24.682 --> 00:46:28.003 You know, watching a fire burn down the building is is the fun part of the job. 00:46:28.432 --> 00:46:32.202 Prob probably the most stressful in the end, but the fun part. 00:46:32.202 --> 00:46:33.842 But, uh, labeling, uh, 00:46:33.842 --> 00:46:40.293 well, I, I had one guy working for me, chap called Nick Petty, who was my sort of chief instrumentation guy, and he loved it. 00:46:40.302 --> 00:46:42.572 So, uh, ,that was his, his 00:46:42.798 --> 00:46:44.458 you you want the jackpot Then 00:46:45.452 --> 00:46:46.293 yes, absolutely. 00:46:46.436 --> 00:46:48.956 that makes, works so much so much easier. 00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:49.554 okay. 00:46:49.646 --> 00:46:52.052 Tom, we are, we are heading till of the, of the podcast. 00:46:52.143 --> 00:46:57.409 So maybe I would love to like ask How did the program change you as, as a fire engineer? 00:46:57.409 --> 00:47:07.925 You're still practicing fire engineer, I guess you, you still come back to the experiences from, from carton and, still use them in, in, in your ongoing efforts, right? 00:47:08.364 --> 00:47:08.739 yes. 00:47:09.081 --> 00:47:10.210 I was, I was quite young. 00:47:10.577 --> 00:47:16.027 I just, I hadn't, I'd come outta university, but I was a little bit older cause Bre paid for me to go to university. 00:47:16.027 --> 00:47:16.907 I was already working. 00:47:17.349 --> 00:47:19.135 I'd just come outta university when I first. 00:47:19.619 --> 00:47:26.469 Took over on the, uh, structural fire side and then very shortly afterwards I ended up at Cardington. 00:47:26.929 --> 00:47:33.670 And it has had a major impact, not just on my career, but on the way I, I do things, the way I work. 00:47:33.963 --> 00:47:36.262 and I mean, I do lots of other things now. 00:47:36.262 --> 00:47:44.103 So we do site inspections, we do assessments, we do all sorts of things, but we still do large scale testing and I. 00:47:44.309 --> 00:47:52.666 What it's given me is, and anybody who's been involved in this area will know, an ability to organize cuz that's what you need to do. 00:47:52.846 --> 00:47:55.545 The, the, the thing I brought to it was getting things done. 00:47:55.545 --> 00:48:00.226 There were people much more clever than me at the beginning who were saying, Tom, go and do this. 00:48:00.606 --> 00:48:02.985 And, but I was able to get. 00:48:03.215 --> 00:48:09.146 That done deal with the contractors, do all the project management, all that side of things that needs to be done. 00:48:09.146 --> 00:48:20.619 And I think anybody who works in large scale fire testing, knows how difficult that is to actually get from a drawing board onto the fire and get the result you want in the end and have all the information available. 00:48:20.989 --> 00:48:24.619 So I think it's had a major impact on the way I work. 00:48:24.929 --> 00:48:26.099 I would say a lasting. 00:48:26.226 --> 00:48:29.076 Having all this experience, would you do it again given a. 00:48:29.485 --> 00:48:31.275 Oh, a drop of a. 00:48:31.275 --> 00:48:31.394 hat. 00:48:31.394 --> 00:48:37.474 Yeah, I would, uh, it was, I mean, it was, in terms of work wise, I mean I'm very happy with what we are doing now. 00:48:37.474 --> 00:48:41.875 It's, it's a very good and a very, uh, productive period for me and the guys who work with us. 00:48:42.255 --> 00:48:50.045 But, I think that probably was the best time of my life, in terms of being able to do that and being so fortunate to be in the right place at the right. 00:48:50.353 --> 00:48:59.668 I just took a quick look on the Google Scholar and, uh, the book from, uh, the multi-story, experiments has been cited 276 times. 00:49:00.034 --> 00:49:04.293 like, even this year, it already has been used as validation for new models.

00:49:04.384 --> 00:49:07.094 So the ongoing impact is, is tremendous. 00:49:07.094 --> 00:49:08.054 And, and thank you. 00:49:08.054 --> 00:49:11.293 And, and Buri and British Steel and everyone involved for that. 00:49:11.724 --> 00:49:15.213 This is, uh, certainly one of the experiments that changed the fire science. 00:49:15.614 --> 00:49:16.434 Yes, indeed. 00:49:16.434 --> 00:49:17.434 I, I believe so, 00:49:17.771 --> 00:49:23.780 Okay, Tom, thank you so much for, for this episode and this, this insightful journey to the carding. 00:49:24.094 --> 00:49:28.793 And I hope to, to see around maybe to talk a little more on, on structural side of engineering. 00:49:28.849 --> 00:49:29.400 Of course. 00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:33.766 Thank you very much for the, uh, invite and, I hope uh, you get on well. 00:49:33.766 --> 00:49:36.565 And, um, I've actually, uh, instigated now within our team. 00:49:36.885 --> 00:49:40.646 Every time we have a team meeting, we're gonna watch one of your episodes 00:49:40.648 --> 00:49:40.998 Oh, 00:49:42.085 --> 00:49:42.885 internal training. 00:49:43.016 --> 00:49:43.365 So, 00:49:43.608 --> 00:49:44.967 great, great, great, great policy. 00:49:45.927 --> 00:49:46.327 you so much. 00:49:46.510 --> 00:49:49.951 my first choice was Danny's one, so um, that's the next one we're gonna look at. 00:49:50.253 --> 00:49:50.742 Good. 00:49:50.742 --> 00:49:52.983 He'll, he'll be very happy to, to know that. 00:49:52.996 --> 00:49:54.028 Thank you so much. 00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:00.329 And thats it, boy what a legacy at Cardington amazing research program and. 00:50:00.824 --> 00:50:10.574 even took me a significant amount of time to understand the timeline of what was happening there because these guys have done so many groundbreaking experiments. 00:50:11.083 --> 00:50:16.543 Like saying you are talking about Cardington is not saying enough because there have been so many. 00:50:17.054 --> 00:50:17.864 Experiments. 00:50:17.893 --> 00:50:19.273 That changed the fire science. 00:50:19.543 --> 00:50:22.063 You have to be more specific than, than that. 00:50:22.213 --> 00:50:37.286 I guess that's the lesson I learned after this episode, but I'm very happy to talk with Tom about the timeline and all the history of discovery that happened at I guess the next step for you is to jump into some reading and I've linked. 00:50:37.298 --> 00:50:42.844 some resources from Cardington happily, there's lots of stuff available. 00:50:43.083 --> 00:50:46.264 There's a lot of data preserved at different sources. 00:50:46.623 --> 00:50:51.184 So very easy to get very clear and very useful. 00:50:52.054 --> 00:50:59.653 And that would be it for today's experiments that changed fire science and I hope you've enjoyed this interview and you enjoy the mini series. 00:50:59.653 --> 00:51:01.514 I have more of these coming. 00:51:01.994 --> 00:51:06.643 If you have in your head, an idea about what was an experiment that has changed. 00:51:06.643 --> 00:51:07.364 fire science. 00:51:07.903 --> 00:51:10.724 Let me know, I would love to talk about it on the show. 00:51:11.324 --> 00:51:12.014 So, yeah. 00:51:12.043 --> 00:51:13.483 Thanks for being here. 00:51:13.574 --> 00:51:15.974 And I invite you back on. 00:51:16.244 --> 00:51:20.143 Friday, I think where we're going to post the question and answers episode a. 00:51:20.204 --> 00:51:23.684 Bonus episode four, November is going to be published in December though. 00:51:24.213 --> 00:51:28.384 Uh, one in which I will answer the listener's questions that I got. 00:51:28.443 --> 00:51:30.277 I hope that will be interesting. 00:51:30.289 --> 00:51:36.688 To you and back to normal cadence on Wednesday Where you will a. 00:51:36.929 --> 00:51:40.949 I learn more on fire science, actually structural fire engineering again. 00:51:40.949 --> 00:51:44.009 And we're That always excites everyone. 00:51:44.518 --> 00:51:45.418 Thanks for listening. 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:45.659 See. 00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:46.108 See you. 00:51:46.168 --> 00:51:46.559 Bye.