התמלול המלא של Making Hazmat Training More Engaging with Bobby Salvesen

city and just like they just have that swagger to really put it in a context where you're gonna really like it. So I reached out to the Hazmat guys and we made everything work out. And I got the the founder himself. Bobby Salveson, retired F F D NY Hazmat 1, founder of the Hazmat Eyes. So I just want to talk real quick, Bobby, before you take it over. I want to say just a quick I guess synopsis or something about what it is that you guys do and everything like that. So the you know the hazmat guys they start with Bobby and his and and and and and his partner Mike Monaco. they teach Has this material response, they go all over, they make, like I said, and this is something that you guys should coin because I give it to you, but they make hazmat training sexy. The way they talk about it, the way they're passionate about it, their their their humor, that northeast kind of swagger. you know, they they they bring a level of like making it fun, funny, and interesting to the learning environment. And when you're talking about something like hazmat, that's that's really hard to do. So they've just kinda capitalized on that. So they founded it in twenty fifteen and they've just been doing it since and it's been taking off since then and I really appreciate it. So, Bobby, thank you for joining me tonight, brother. Let's let's have a good show. My pleasure. I think this is gonna be great. I'm looking forward to it. For those that don't know who you are, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, then d and then tell us about the Hazmat guys. Yeah, sure. so mm my career I started off as a volunteer fire department. went through the ranks in the East Meadow Fire Department, in Long Island, New York. And going over to ch you know, chief of department and great time. It was a great time, great department, a lot of great people. I started in EMS in New York City in nineteen ninety five and then I took a promotion over to Fire and I was in Flatbush, Brooklyn, going on a good amount of fires, then nine eleven happened and then I went over to squad two eighty eight. immediate immediately. Christmas of O one where was over there. And had a lot of great times and I didn't I went to a lot of fires and did lot of crazy things. And then I kinda came out of the closet that I had a a chemistry degree or two. And they were like, you gotta go across the floor and go with the nerds and I moved across happily and I I did I think I did pretty good over there. I I I think I moved the ball. I definitely did not want to just get in the company and Just do what everybody else is doing. I want to change how it goes. And you know, funny w I I you know, podcasts were just coming out in twenty fifteen. Like they were like nobody was in it. There was like very you know, people are doing it in their bathrooms and kind of crap, you know. It was Yeah, you're right. That's literally the truth. You know, it was like really like nobody was doing it. There was like no tools and everything was audio only and YouTube was just coming out and I I went around the firehouse and Mike was the only one dumb enough to say, Yeah, let's do it. And we still we literally started in the bunk room, on opposite sides of the room. I thought you were gonna say the bathroom, it would have been fitting, has not. You I'm like, that would have been funny. You guys just didn't shitter at the firehouse. Yeah. It would have go on, I'm sorry. We have done those things, you know. but we you know, we started with episode one and it was really in the beginning, it was really choppy and over edited and over time we started figuring out that, nobody cares if you don't hear us breathe or say It's it's real and natural when you s when you screw up. Right. And you make a mistake. People like, it's a real person. Right. So we're up to episode five hundred and seventy three, I think, we just put out. Nice God bless. Yeah. It's one a week, haven't missed a week in over ten years. I think it's eleven years now. And you know, we morphed. We just much like you said, making making it not is sexy and and you know, making it not suck. what the original intent of the podcast or or was to make you all ships rise of the tide. You know, if if we can make the field better and bring community together, then everybody gets better. Right. And so we that was our initial intent. And then a y and l you you get around as well, is that we started going to classes or we've been to classes and we started noticing how crappy instructors are. Uh-huh. Right. And and they you know, whether it's I I'm not even saying it's exclusive to hazmat, I'm saying it's more on the hazmat, but I've seen really crappy instructors on the collapse side and the fire side and ground ladder side and it's people just say, Well, I got a lot of experience. I gotta be good at getting in front of the room. And I have seen Instructors with forty years of experience that suck. Sure. And I've seen guys with six months on the job that are incredible because it's a performance. Yeah, you have to have that level of charisma. I don't disagree. But that's that's not all of it, but I do agree. You you can't y you're teaching people, especially our our people, our our students are firefighters. Right. Right. And firefighters are are are, you know, be b the the truth the truth is is they're ten and and fifteen year old kids in grown men's bodies. Right. So you gotta capitalize on it, You gotta you gotta cater to that mindset and that focus, Right. And y I know a lot of firemen they think, you know, putting their hands on it is the way they learn. And and not everybody's like that. Some people need it from the book, some people need it from the board, some people need it from the PowerPoint. Sure. Some people need it their hands on it. But has not I will say it's a little bit different. There is plenty of hands on, but the old school thinking that it all has to be in the classroom, I think is wrong.

you know, you you need to have the theory and then the it has to switch to practical use. Yes. Right? And and you have to do this ebb and flow, this dance of let me give you the theory, let me tell you how it translates to your world. And then let's see how it works in the street. And everybody, you'll see the lights going on. And if you use that flow, that that swinging dance in the classroom, they will crush it. Yeah. It's different. One of the most offensive things I see, especially in the fire serves, since we teach our own, is that you'll get a the instructor to do the hazmat operations and he'll he'll open the class with, Guys, this is gonna be dry. We'll do our best to get through this. And I just want to throw my shoe. Already you set the tone. You're telling everybody they don't need to pay attention. Yeah. what are you doing? I agree. Hey guys, we're gonna we're gonna eat some glass for about 45 minutes here. It's like you might as well have said that, right? Well, yeah, why why would you do that? You wouldn't go to a ground ladder class and and do that. You wouldn't go to you know a high angle rope rescue class and and do that. You're gonna So treat them with respect and be like, it's not the sexiest topic, but I am a Amazing at doing this. Yeah. And I'm going to turn it sexy. And they'll be like, challenge accepted. Right. it works. Right. Just store it off with that shock value. That that's actually one of the questions I was just going to ask you. What's something that I don't mean to put you on the spot? Just, you know, it we're it's it's part of the show, right? I I think that the listener, the viewer, they'd be interested to know because because that is what happens. Nine out of ten of these instructors that that will just we were focusing on hazmat that are going to teach hazmat. They initiate, they open the lecture with that. Yep. You're right. I've seen it a hundred times. so what's some suggestions? What do you do that works? Because I know what you guys do, it it works. You got such a following because you're able to put it in that way where you know, do you people aren't sitting there being like, another hazmat class, or like, you know, like I can't wait to hear another word from this guy, you know? So what is it that you guys are doing if you don't mind sharing that, No, it's it's not even a really a str secret formula or anything. if you're going to go to the movies, right? You're gonna go with the the wife, the husband, whoever you got, right? You're gonna go there, you're not going there because of the poster, right? I'm not going there because it says ground ladders on it or you know, hazmat operations. I'm going 'cause of the trailer. Yeah. Right? So when you first get in front of that classroom on the first exposure to them, first off, it's your first date. Right. And and when you went on your first date with your wife or whatever, you didn't go on that first date. You sent your best representative. Right. She married that guy and she got you. Right. And that's why she's unhappy now because he's he he left after that first date. Right. Right. So now that you now now that you're they're kind of prepared, when you're standing in front of the classroom, they don't care that you had a rough night or you had you know, you you're getting divorced or you you know, you whatever it is. When you're coming in front of that room, they're expecting an experience. Yeah. Right. And so you give them that trail and be like, hey, listen, this class is gonna prepare you for when things go wrong. What you can size this any which way you want, but almost give them give the the experience they d paint the movie in their head. Because if you if you think about and this is just in general, every human thinks they're the hero of the story. Right? they're the ones if the aliens come down, they're gonna want the one that can communicate with it. If the if the nuclear thing happens, they're gonna be the ones going to save the world. Every single person does that. And what happens is the instructor first, right off the bat, starts saying to them, I'm the hero of this story. And everyone's like kind of in conflict and they now they're trying to juxta huxtapose that the whole thing in and so first off When you're in front of that classroom, be Obi-Wan Kenobi Kenobi, be the guide. Right? Because now you're just helping them get to that solution. You help so paint the picture and tell them, like, hey, listen, we're we're doing this because there could be a gasoline truck that overturns. There could be a WMD event that happens, and you need to be the hero. And you're gonna have to get this stuff off of people and and you know, herd them to ambulances and you know, high fives and milletime and everything. And if they go, I get it. So let's start here. And they're gonna be eating out of your hands for the next six weeks or whatever the hell it is. No, I I I like that. It's you know, it's it's it's an interesting perspective, but but it actually, you know, it's it's very applicable. It's you know, not to make it about me, it's just like I empathize with this because i it's something that I try to do, like, you know My my bread and butter lecture is is this is this, is the podcast is the is is called the training officer. And I've been blessed that, you know, I I have charisma, but I I I you have to captivate off the bat. You know, I I think that that's where a lot of us fail. It doesn't really matter what the topic is, you know, like like i it could it could be something that's perceived as dull or something that's perceived as sexy. if you get up there and I'm not gonna say anybody's names, but there's people that have a heavy resume and you know, and then there's even people that are from where you're from, they got them four letters and, you know, just instantly your your thought process right. Is like elite. Right. And then they they couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. Nope.

So you're absolutely right. You know, it's it's not it's not showmanship. We're not trying to suggest that you need to do go up there and and and audition. Right? No, it's craftsmanship. Right. It is craftsmanship. you have to put your best game face on. you have to we're talking to firefighters and and and we're trying to make them learn. And it's been psychologically proven and and and and it's and it's done, you know, through different educational methodology that the listener and the and the student, you know, the retention. is when there's action, when there's something that draws their attention. When there is like some kind of, you know, firework that went off, some kind of like, holy shit, you're right. That makes sense. Something that grabs them, something that makes them feel like they're part of it. And I like the way you said, you know, you frame that with like, you know, how like you can be the hero and it's not being corny, you know, like like I I do the same thing with with people. Like I say like in in in my lecture, like, and I talk to people about training at the being instructors. And I'm like, well, it's the same as incident command. When you're running a lecture or you're running a drill yard, you're running the the the scene. Yep. So yeah, I got captains, I got lieutenants, I got I got firefighters, I got people that are walking up to me and telling me different things or whatever. You call on people in the audience. They sometimes you get them classroom hijackers where they go a little longer than they should. But, you know, it makes for the lecture just as it makes for the scene when somebody offers their expertise. But make no mistake, I'm in command. Right. And I try to say that to people like you need to set that tone off the bat. do that elevate of the octave of your voice or whatever, And and I say like I joke in my class, I'm like, to put it in a best perspective, let me quote the wedding singer. I have a microphone and you don't. You're gonna listen to every word I have to say, But but it's the truth, you know, like so we're g you know, just tying it back to the hazmat thing. And again, I'm not knocking it like you know this, you know, Bobby, you know this like It has it it had to be a challenge for you guys to tap into that market of having to teach folks hazmat because A, it's very niche, right? It's it's it's it's it's it's unique. And then B is it was so bastardized by those who came before us because they started the lecture with All right, everybody, yeah. We gotta go hazmat ops refresher, you know. And and if you think about it, like in the world of of of the f emergency services. EMS has been around since the beginning of time. Sure. The fire department's been around for two hundred plus years, maybe th three hundred years, right? but hasn't it really only started in the eighties? That's a good point. You know, so like, you know, w when when you're talking to guys, you know, and I I'm talking only maybe one

to two generations back in time, those guys had nothing. Like they had books and they had Traps the equipment and we had they had and now you take one of those old guys and you show how we're doing it in today's world with the meters and the capabilities and on this PPE and they they can't even wrap their head around it. And so the the the tricks that we use in front of the classroom, you have to be decent to get in front of the classroom. I'm not gonna say you have to be perfect, nobody's perfect, but you you have to understand that. The kid that you could BS fifteen years ago now has the entire internet right in his hand. Right. And so if you think you're gonna outflank that kid, as soon as he smells the BS, he will l l rean over and tell his friend and that will catch wildfire or they'll start a text group and they will destroy you. And I I've had many disagreements your credibility be shot. yeah. And and and one of the biggest things that I see and and this is the older school guys versus the no newer school guys is that, before phones there was newspapers, right? The guys used to bring class, so you sit in the thing. And the instructors would would complain about it and they would be like, Well, you know, these kids, these kids, they they just they don't they don't pay attention or anything. And I'm like, Are they not paying attention or do you suck? Because if you you're a crappy instructor, you're not gonna keep the engagement. Right. Right. So that's why I come back to I I can turn I could talk about my shoelaces for three hours and have you eaten out of my hands. It's not about the topic, it's about the delivery. Right. And so I think a lot of the instructors you know, actually I'm so p I I we actually wrote a book on instructional development because it's it's horrendous. Like If you could teach hazmat, you can teach anything. Right. I was and that's I again it's not a knock on hazmat. You s I mean you said it, so it's great. I literally I think that exact same thing. You know, it it it it's it's like you know, like Frank said, you know, if I can make it here, I'll make it anywhere. It's the same thing. If you can teach hazmat, you can teach. Yes. Yeah, because it is. It's it's a specialized thing. It's not very sexy, and if you can teach that and people I always say, you in today's day and age, the the biggest compliment to a successful class as an instructor is that nobody was on their phones unless they were taking pictures of your slides or trying to take a a video of you. that's the only time that you ever see them on their phone. That's a huge compliment, right? so it's yeah, I agree. If you if if you can teach hazmat, you can you can damn near teach anything and and and you know, just on that, I think that and I would like you to expand on That's where in the in the world of training, we oftentimes across America, we perceive hazmat as checking the box. You know, it's like, well, the mission requires that we have to log so many hazardous material hours trained per month, per year, whatever, right? If I'm a hazmat tech, I have to have certain l hours of refresher training and et cetera. I had to have donned a level A suit, this many times, et cetera. and it becomes monotonous, it becomes check in the box because we put these these these these benchmarks on them, right? And I don't agree with that approach because as and maybe I'm just saying it because, you know, I I have a different exposure to it working on the Fed side, you know, where we deal with a lot of hazardous material stuff, right? so we quite literally are functioning hazmat techs. Yep. But a lot of times, a lot of these curriculums are now requiring has hazmat awareness and hazmat ops at a minimum. And I'm okay with that. But not everybody has to be a tech, right? Don't just sit through that part of the lecture and then the only thing that you took away from it when you used to get your Firefighter one or two cert or whatever, 'cause it was part of the curriculum, was to reference the ERG. You know, Whoever taught it then, they they they should be fired because they clearly didn't teach you right. And there have been instructors because it's built into, those academy settings now with fire one and two, where the instructor is a fire instructor. Yeah. He's not a hazmat guy. And he will say, you know, or she will say, they will say, you know, they'll be like, All right, well, you know, hey, listen, you know, we gotta do eight hours today on hazmat. So, you know, listen it's dry, but tomorrow, guys, we're gonna burn. So let's just get through it. Well, like we started the conversation early in the podcast. You're already telling everybody they don't need to pay attention to it. And that's why we when we shit them out with their fire one and two cert. Right. They technically have an awareness and ops, but then we get an actual spill and the only thing the guy knows how to do is read the ARG. You know, it's honestly I don't I personally don't think the topic is dry. I think it's dryly delivered. Right. So if and I say this a l in a lot of times, if you go around a room and I I like doing this because, you know, especially in the hazmat room hazmat is that you go around the room and say, What'd you do before you got on the job? And the guy's like, I was a landscaper, I was a plumber, I did auto sales, I did what whatever. And when they come up to that scenario, they're looking at it through the lens of their prior life. Right. It's just 'cause we're all looking at it through the fire lens, but there's a little depth when you did something else before, I was a diamond handler or I was at works for the So when I have a PowerPoint, let's say on like ground ladders, right? I do this the the presentation, there's there's babes weeping, there's parades being given. It's the best PowerPoint ever been given, right? And I give that exact same slide deck to you and you do it. That is a completely different show. A hundred

percent. Right? So it is not the content that makes it engaging. It's the guy delivering it. And if he phones it in, then you're gonna get a shit outcome. Right. You're gonna get crappy outcome. And and that's really why we transitioned. I'm not gonna say transition, but we we added on to the repertoire. The podcast let me get into your ear for 30 minutes a a week. Every week you will listen to what I thought and what I said. But then we're like, you know what? If we train instructors, they're touching twenty five at a clip. We've magnified our reach. And now we go out and we do we we we evolved into a training company and we're blown it we're doing good. But the thing is is that if you can maximize your reach, it's amazing how much time how many times I hear back the things I said ten years ago because the guys now listen to the podcast and going, This is a great idea. I'm like, I forgot about that one. That's like when I write an article for fire engineering, like I just got a notification today that one of them published. And I'm like, when the hell did write this? I'm like, l November last year. I'm like, let me read it and let me refresh my mind real quick. No, I get it though. And it that's a huge compliment too, is because, the the the the information is outlasting it. You know, it's it's like it's it's purposeful. So yeah, I agree with that. That's a that's another that means that you're doing a good job as an instructor. You know, like it's it's evergreen. It i you know, what happened in Haz w the only thing that's evolving in Haznat. is technology and PP. chemistry is chemistry for the last couple of billion years. You know, physics is physics. plumbing is plumbing. You know, so there is very few things that evolve. Fire has the same stuff going on. You know, like I I I was just we just did a podcast the other day and I was saying about how you know back in the sixties and seventies the truck and the engine were really well coordinated because we were going to so many fires. The c we knew exactly as soon as the truck was up on a roof, start taking class. And now it's a much more front of mind type thing. Yeah. And, you know, now it's urgently f so you got to coordinate, you gotta coordinate. So why? And when you asked this of the question the class and they they they start coming with things. And and what happened was about twenty five years ago, the truck companies got the hydro ramp Right, this new this high hydraulic door blaster. And you ask anybody in the country, you say, Is it a good tool? Right. And always they go, they go, Yeah, it's great. But it only works fifty percent of the time. You understand that. It's a great tool, but it only works when a doors open away from you. So now, sixty years ago, I wanted to get into a whole bunch of apartments, I had to force every single door. Now I can one guy can do all those doors, and what hasn't changed? The engine. Right. They still have to stretch line. put water in it and open a nozzle. So they're on the same track they were in the sixties and the truck has moved evolutionary faster. Yeah. So like there are there are things that change and there are th a lot of things that stay the same. And if you're a competent operations level instructor for hazmat and you just understand the fundamentals and maybe maybe you gotta bring in a a subject matter expert to talk about that weird new technology or new thing. It's Okay to do that. bring in Randy. He's a good dude. He can talk about this. Yeah. I I think a lot of guys a lot of guys don't want to admit that they're not the jack of all trade master of like jack of all trades, we'll say, because that would mean that they're the master of of s some of them and not some of them. And so if I'm running a hazmat class, I better know everything. That's not true. You know, just same as in fire. Right, I agree with that. I think that that's foolish as an instructor to think that you're the only one that's gonna have all the answers. Yeah, this there's guys that are amazing in foam and there's guys that suck in foam. So bring in your subject matter expert for that section and give them the best performance that you possibly can. Yeah. So let me ask you this. So i you know, since I've been in the fire service, we've evolved in our approach in Hazmat, we've taken a little more serious. you know, we I th not not everywhere as we just, you know, kind of beat up. but I think I'm proud to say that in my experience, I've seen has this materials be responded to a little more methodically with a little more purpose. I think that people are starting to respect it a little more, right? but I would ask you, especially 'cause you it's your thing, what are some of the trends that you would recommend that we probably need to implement into some of our our training programs or things that people should just kind of do a little more research on outside of just you know, the the the the quintessential oil spill or or whatever, right? But like or you know, or smell of gas, like like the oil like the norms. But like what are some of the things that Are concerning for you that one hundred percent in in involve and encompass has Matt and and what are some suggestions that you have on as far as us educating ourselves for it? I I just jotted down three things that came to the top of mind and that's awesome that you just did that right off the dome. I love that. It's interesting. No no prep. No prep. yeah, that's great. Far the the biggest one I think you know what, I'll give you the easiest one. We all have to do the refresher. Right. It's it's a it's a it's a requirement. It's not an option, it is a requirement. The the great thing is there's no determination on how long that's gonna be. There's no determination of what it's gonna entail. So you as the authority having jurisdiction, have pretty much carte blanche as long as it's within the hazmat world and it's applicable to your people. Make it as real as

possible, plan it out and don't phone it in. If you want guys that are gonna be able to perform and my third point will will be play into this is that is that you know, you as the officer, you as the chief, when you say do that, you kind of expect that your guys are gonna do that in a manner that's safe, legal, and you know, not gonna get everybody in pickle and all this other stuff, right? And you know, and if you're not as the officer, as the guy in charge, doing your job to make sure they're ready for that, and then expect them to do it. Either A, they're gonna do it wrong or they're gonna get somebody hurt. And i you know, it's not on them, it's on you, the officer. Right? that's one. another thing is understanding the rules. And I'll I'll say this with tongue in cheek, but you can kind of get where I'm going, is is that hazmat is the playground of nerds, right? Especially at the tech and spec level. And so when the incident commander has some technicians and specialists there, he's just like You guys are the smart guys. What am I doing? Yeah. Tell me what you need. Yeah, tell me what to do. Because I you know, I I was in a great department and it was a very weird thing as the officer on the rig to be the least educated guy on the rig. You know, they're used to pointing the fingers and and saying we're gonna do this and they getting off the rig and going, What do we do? 'Cause I don't know what how to do this. This is this is totally new. And so What happens is if you know the rules better than the instant commander, who's really running the show? Right. So what I'll say is understanding the rules of engagement is very important in the hazmat. Like much like a medic, a paramedic, if he gives 20 milligrams versus two milligrams, there's a problem here, right? And there's gonna be maybe people going to jail, maybe people right? Same thing in hazmat. If you broke the wrong window in a fire, who's going to jail? nobody. like it's that the fire service runs in gray. Hazmat and f and EMS runs in black and white. Right? I mean, there's some fiddling around the edges, but mm for the most part. And so one of the things I I we've been hearing is like a lot of departments, not a lot of departments, but this staffing, this funding issues and all that stuff. And so making a technician costs money. I get it. But you can't be a technician if you don't have the technician tools and training. Right? Even if I'm a paramedic and I don't have my paramedic tools, I'm not a paramedic. Mm-hmm. if I'm coming home, my car and I see an accident, I can't act as a paramedic without my paramedic stuff, right? And so the same thing with with with hazmat. And so what's happening is, and I'm I'm strongly saying this to anybody that's getting an idea, wow, this is a good idea, is that if you are an operations level guy, which I would Bet the vast majority of the US forest service is operations at least. You have the ability of doing mission specific competencies to bring you

up above that, like metering or special PPE or DCOM, whatever it is. I think there's like seven or eight of them. And what an alarming trend is, is that I can't make technicians, so I'm gonna make ops with all the missions sp you know, mission specific, and they can work as technicians. This is not only incorrect, but a liability that is insane. Right. The the difference between a technician and an ops, even with all those mission specific, is tremendous. So I've heard this a lot. I'm saying know the rules so that you can operate safely and within the confines of what you're supposed to be doing. Which leads me to my last point that I wrote down here is being compliant. Compli compliance and competency are two dramatically different words. Right. And what we're seeing out there is if you're in the position of leadership and you have the potential of running it in operation, aka being an incident commander, for even five minutes for five years, whatever the hell it is, if you do not have your hazmat incident command course, which is an eight hour add on to the operation, that's all it is, eight hours. If you don't have that, when somebody gets hurt, the first thing they're gonna do is pull the training records. And they're gonna ask, how did you assume command without this certificate? And it's gonna be big. Yep. So I'm not looking for business. I'm just saying you I guarantee wherever you are from the volunteer fire service, you have access to a county, a regional, a national level class that you can take that incident command class and you're good. There's no refreshers for it. Just get it. And you're now you're lo you're not a and you're not a problem no more. It's just those are my three big things. You know, I'm not saying anybody's doing it or not doing it. I'm not pointing a a flashlight into the corner, exposing those dark little secrets. I'm just saying that allegedly it might be an issue. Yeah, allegedly, I like that. No, I I I absolutely agree with that. I I say that oftentimes too is you know, documentation documentation's critical. Qualifications, certifications, these things are all qu critical. Capabilities, application of those things are all critical and they're and they're important. Yeah. But yeah, you'd be a fool, especially in hazmat, if you're gonna go through the hours of this training and these calls are becoming more frequent more now in our fire service than they ever were before, right? Yeah. God forbid something goes sideways and you marked up And you were the quote unquote, I C of this incident or crew leader or whatever, right? And something goes wrong. you know, the litig the litigators and they're gonna be like, Well, hey, you know, what said you were certified to do that? Yeah. You know, well I have hazmat ops. Okay. Yeah. You know, well, shouldn't have been running the crew. Well, I'm a captain on the engine. Well, yeah, but you were assigned to a specialized task. What was your background? Right. so no, I agree.

I think that's a great I think that's a great suggestion and and and and advice to people, 'cause it it it it really is true. so let me ask you this then. So outside of where, you know, you and I grew up, and you know, 'cause you know, you you guys have a a large reach now, yeah, there's a lot of rural America, right? There's a lot of it. There's more more rural than there is, you know, cities, right? Yeah. so we got a lot of these these these smaller or or slower fire departments and I often say to people like, you know, just because the call volume is in there, just because you might not have the resources or the amenities or even the budget sometimes, because I got that. That shit happens, right? Mm-hmm. It does not give you an ex an exemption from being prepared. And I don't mean that as a dig toward anybody in the fire service or even rural America. It's just I'm just saying in general, some sh sometimes shit happens in your first do, and you may only run 102 calls a year in your first do. But sometimes shit happens, right? Yep. And one of those hundred and two calls is going to be the day where the guy that calls 911 or the lady that calls 911, their expectation is that you are the subject matter expert and you're gonna you're gonna fix the glitch. And that comes with training. It comes with that preparation. You know, I'm not a I'm not a Pats fan or a Brady fan, but like, you know, Tom Brady doesn't win six Super Bowls with the Pats and seven in his career and go to ten by not practicing all year, right? Yeah. You know, so so that's what I say is so I would just I would I would just be interested to know if if there's some like quick little things. Obviously, if you want to plug your y what you guys offer, I don't care, I'm sure FE probably cares, but I don't. So just feel free to do it. But but in general, like what would be like if like let's just say, you know, my name, you know, hey, I'm I'm Jared Smith and I live out in, you know, Johnny Shitzville, Wisconsin, and we you know, we got four and a half square miles of of of fields. But all of a sudden a track trailer that's coming through the interstate, you know, rolls over and we don't know what kind of product it's carrying, right? What's some suggestions that you would give me to try to help give my people a little bit of an edge to respond to something like that? Shanksville, Pennsylvania. Who would have thought that was gonna happen? A plane lands in it, 911, right? East Palestine, Ohio. Ohio. Right? Nobody knew there was gonna be and it Flint, Michigan. We I can go on all day long. You gotta love canal. You gotta These are places that if you drove through it, you wouldn't even notice. And there's great people there. Right. And It doesn't I I I am firmly it doesn't take money to make you good. It takes heart, it takes passion, it takes leadership, mentorship. You know, if if the officer leads with passion, the people that he br that gravitate around that officer are gonna be passionate about whatever it is. That's that's just the personality of of the the playground. And with today's world, with YouTube And podcasts like this, like mine, like you when I started our podcast fifteen in twenty fifteen, twelve years ago, we were legitimately the only podcast on hazmat out. No doubt. And even right now, there's only I think one or two that did like a couple. And but what my point is is all that crap is free. Like You can just drink and drink and drink. If you wanna be good. Go to class. You want to be good really good? Go to listen to podcasts, listen to YouTube and that kind stuff. You want to be a true master of your craft, then you have to teach. Right? Because l let's say I I I'm excellent. I'm amazing at doing this thing, right? And I don't want to get up in front of the clash, I'm not gonna teach, right? Because I understand all the aspects of this job. And let's just say you throw me in front of the room. And you say, teach this. Well, now I got twenty-five guys and I tell them the way I understand this topic. And maybe twenty of them get it, and five guys are gonna give you that I'm sucking on a lemon face, you know, like I don't quite get it. So now you have to take that concept and reform it into a different way and send it again. And maybe you'll get two more guys, and then three more will be like, So what I'm saying to you is mastery of a topic requires you to understand everything Every aspect of things in five or six different ways so that you can connect with everybody. That's high level stuff. Yeah. So I'm saying the guys that are the best, don't turn it off. Right? You know, I work nine to five. At seven o'clock, he's still doing it. At ten o'clock, he's still doing it. At two o'clock, he's still he does not shut off. Those guys are the guys that are regarded, those are the guys you go to FDIC. To go sit in their classroom and it's not because I was on F D and Y or LA City. It's because he's an exceptional guy from that place. There's plenty of guys from not those departments that are incredibly good at doing these things. And I follow them because they're great. Right. You know, give platforms. This is the place to do it. I think you should do you know, these these offices that have motto and have have methodologies and inspire people. Those are the people who are supposed to be on this podcast right here. Yeah. I agree with that. That's one of the things I try to pride myself on is I I I I try to bring somebody that I feel is absolutely relevant to the to the topic that I'm gonna talk about. I'm not gonna knock anybody out. I'll just I'll just I'll leave it there. I I I've I'm pretty proud of how I run my show because I do like I I just I I tailor it to the relevance and the practicality of what what it is that we're gonna talk about for for each month. So so you're absolutely right to say that. And then I I just I one of the things that I've just noticed, just just touching back on one of the things

that we were just saying, just because you don't think you were naming some of those places, they never thought that they were gonna have to respond to something like that. You know what I mean? No. And I'm not sitting here advocating that you need to train for doomsday, 'cause that's stupid. It's it's counterproductive, right? But but nonetheless, like I Now, before I was I was downplaying just 'cause you can read new RG doesn't mean you're a hazmat guy, but I will say this do you even understand how to look at one of those? Right? there's different refr reference material and and resources just in your rig, even in your podunk town that you can pull out and make a drill out of and talk about it on your phone. Right. Look at your phone. who's not using the phone? Even Amish people got phones these days, you know what I mean? They do. Yeah. I've seen them. My wife calls them bootleg Amish because they got phones, We don't have to worry about insulting. They're not allowed to watch this, so we're all right. But but no, but no, but it's the truth, you know, it's funny because we moved when we moved here from Jersey, we were online in a Walmart and an Amish person had a flip phone. Yeah. And they and they they opened it up. My wife goes, I thought they're not allowed to have phones. What is it? Bootleg Amish people over here? No, but no, but but that's the truth. You know, I mean you got all these different apps, all these different ways to reference them. You know, call someone out to somebody, say, Hey, I see this, this is what it looks like, this is what it says, this is what a placard says. Do a quick little drill or something like that. Just give those the those stupid little s like twenty, thirty, forty minute things that just give somebody an edge, you know, so that it's not the first time my point in this, I know you you know, you agree with this, Bobby, just you know, my My point is is the first time that you're referencing material or trying to come up with a game plan shouldn't be at the core. Right. you should already have an idea. No. You don't go from a white belt to a black belt in a day. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? there there was a there was a I I said this on I've said this I I don't remember where I said it, but I I it was one of the most impactful things that I've ever read was remember that guy Sullenberger that put the the the plane down in in the Hudson, yeah. So I we responded to that and all that stuff. But I was reading an article afterwards and they were interviewing his his peers and they were like, If you f if you if there was one person that could do this, who would it be? And they were like, that guy. He was always drilling, always training, always doing right. And so now they're interviewing him and they're like, your yes your peers said this, and he said, I trained that hard because I knew one day I was gonna have to make an immediate full withdrawal. And I'm like My head exploded. I'm like, that's who I need to

be. Right. That's free. That's called attitude. Right. And and as an instructor as an officer and an instructor, you're you're allowed to let people drink from the fire hose all the time. Give podcasts. Give freaking YouTube. Give them homework and give they some of them are not gonna do it. Yeah. You know, there's always the B team guys. There's always and they they they're the water finds its level. But if everybody moves up, then the whole gri the whole job gets better. That's why I always say that. All ships rise at the tide. If the officer, the leader sets the bar high, all the ships come up to that bar. That's it. I like that. all right, so tell me a little bit about some of the things that that you guys do, and you know, some of the things that you offer, some suggestions or whatever. Yeah. Go go ahead and plug what what it is that you're working on. I'm all right with that because I think that it's very relevant because there isn't enough practicality or or, you know, to to use the word sexyism. Yeah. You know, make making hazmat trend sexy again, you know. We've we've always been wanting to like, you know, shake it up. You know, why can't we make the tools make d have the tools that, you know, make make hazmat great again, whatever you want to say, right? And so we we came up with hazmat games and it's a card game and you deal out five cards and that's the scenario and we talk about it. And then all you gotta do is just, I changed the material, now it's diesel. That completely changes the whole thing. Like my scenario got smaller, I don't need as many resources. And so the gamification of of not only hazmat, but fire is something we should be looking into a as instructors, as officers, because Yeah, I can make something funny, I can make them learn it. But if I can make them want to learn it and have fun learning it, like n there's nothing better than coming down to the kitchen, as an officer and seeing the guys doing a drill by themselves. And you're like, isn't that nice? Like they're it's not because I told them to do it, but they want to do it. And that's you know, so like if you can get if you can gamify, if you can make Training fun and exciting. Like we're building a digital hazmat. And not even a hazmat, it's it's it's it's it's a simulator where you can put down ambulances and fires and do this and then and they can practice and we can put it, you know, can game it. You can get points. And now you you got the brag. You know, I'm the best in in on in New York State. I'm the best in Jersey. yeah. Who's the better state? Like it's they want to do that crap. I like that. You know, and we have the technology to do it now. Yeah, I like that. It's pretty neat. It's it's there's l there's so many cool things that not just us, but just guys that are inspired by doing things and just tired of the paradigm of the way we've always done it. Wha well Mythbuster, why are we doing it like that? I don't know. Right. It's 'cause Sal told him. Well who told Sal? Frank. Who told Frank? Al. Who the hell is Al? Right? That's how he done it. man, that's too funny. Yeah. That's too funny. No, I like that. Yeah, keep keep changing it up. Don't accept things. we made we made a hazmat escape room. Right? We would we would bring the crew in and we'd lock them in the bed in the bunk room and we say, you have 60 minutes to get out of here. If you don't get out in 60 minutes, you gotta wash the rigs. Yeah. If you get out, you can go to the couch. Whatever you want to do, right? And this is stupid. 20 minutes in, they were running around a room, they're looking under the mattress. We had them hook, line, and sinker. And all you gotta do is make it a game. Make a fire game. Right. Steal it. You know, it's to take from one is called plagiarism. To take from many, it's called research. So steal a lot of crap. Yeah. That's cool. No, I like that. I like that a lot. That's cool. All right. So one of the things that I I do on my show, and and and you know, feel free to to tailor it however you want. So this is where I'm gonna put you on the spot. You ready? boy. Here we go. So I d I I I I always end toward the end of my shows, I always ask everybody this question. The reason why I do is 'cause and I gotta give the quick s background on it, I gotta give the disclaimer. So years ago what I've been asking us, I've had I've had this show since November of twenty eighteen. And and you know b somebody made a comment one time this is, you it's pretty arrogant to to ask this question, you know, you you don't you don't write your own legacy, so you shouldn't be asking people, what what what they would like it to be. And I thought, well, you know, i i if it's being perceived that way, should I change it? And I thought, well, okay, you know, let me take that feedback, you know, and s see how I can tailor it. And so how I my my the my way I've tailored it is by doing this disclaimer. I'm not changing the question. And the reason why is because the question works, because as you see And as people like Nat who can who can, do be the do the production thing, that they're gonna focus on you. And it shows the raw and the realism of it. And that and like you said early on when we started this show, you know, these podcasts are where it's at because it's the same as going to a a lecture with a really good instructor is 'cause you have that real dialogue. They're real people. It's not bullshit, it's not somebody with a script, it's not somebody auditioning for a reality show. It's real shit. We're talking about shop, you know? Yep. So what I say wh I'm the relevance in this is because everything in training is objective based, right? And I feel like I would be remiss not to say that in life and firefighting is part of life, the fire save service is part of life, try training people, developing people is part of life. so you know, we have some kind of a hidden objective, and it's not arrogance, it's not narcissism, it's

purpose. You have to have some l goal. some objective that you would like to meet so that you knew that what you were working toward made sense and it was accomplished, right? So while I know that, you know, we don't write our legacy, those around us write write it. But we certainly contribute to what's written about us, you know? Mm-hmm. so I would be interested to know you know, in in in the things that you've done in your career, And the things that you've done in your life and the things that you're doing with the hazmat guys and whatever. what what would be a a an objective, a positive, productive, relevant, practical legacy that you would like to try to leave behind? Something you want to work toward. I I I heard I don't remember where I heard this this term, but a lot of people just live the dash. Right? When you when you got your headstone, you got your I I was born on this date and I was dead on this date, and you live in that dash, right? And and and you just kinda You just phone it in, right? Yeah. My what we're hoping to do, I if we started out the podcast looking for money, then it would be that would have been the reason. but it was never about that. Like it was always about ships rising with the tide. If we can make the entire and and the legacy you know, long story short is the legacy I want is that I want the people to look back and go, those two dudes moved the ball. yeah, yeah, not everybody has access to a hundred and twenty hour technician class. Not everybody has the access to a hundred and sixty hour or eighty hour, whatever. I would bet that if you listen to all of our episodes, you would be substantially more prepared than those big city technicians because you're getting the lived experience of not just me and Mike, but hundreds of interviews of smarter dudes than us. That did different things and how'd you do that? And why'd you do that? And so the legacy that you're looking to do is is leave a little bit like Halligan. That guy's name is never gonna get out of people's mouths. It's gonna be around for you know, and it's so simple, it's not gonna be re reinvented. Like it's that kind of thing. And so hazmat's evolving, but the chemistry is the chemistry. The the the the mindset is the mindset, you know, and we like you said in the beginning, the culture. The culture you have to you know, the culture's as important as the tools, as the techniques, as all those things. And so be as good steward of culture, I think, because everything is downrange of culture. If you if you get the guys to the right mindset, anything you pump in their heads is gonna stick and it's gonna go to the next generation. So do it like that. I love it. No, it's good stuff. The the last thing, which is a segue off of it, but just if you don't mind, just quick s synopsis or s summarize, whatever, expand. I always like to leave my guests with before I close it out, you know, just any any final things that that we either didn't get to cover that you wanted to cover or something else that you wanna say to the the listener or the viewer, w whoever, you know, just the floor is yours. Honestly, if you want to expand the hazmat, go over and get some free podcasts. There's a couple of them that we like. Chemical Safety Board has one that's pretty good. A little nerdy. Oz can get nerdy, stays lightweight. There's another one hazard class, which is not even it's just fire service. It's like Joe Rogan for fire service. That's a cool one too. There's more out there and I'm probably leaving some out, but you have no excuse not to pick it up. It's free, it's downloaded to your phone. The only thing you have is laziness. Go get better. I like it. Go get better. I like it. Well, I appreciate it, Bobby. Thank you. And anybody, you know, so if if you guys are interested in in just learning more or whatever, you know, about about Bobby and so they they're they can be reached or or checked out at the hazmatguys dot com. like he said, you know, they try to do a monthly podcast, they talk about different topics, they make it sexy, and that's that's the kind of the key thing there was, you know. I could have brought anybody on and you got a chemistry degrees. I could have brought anybody on and they would have just they could have just t science the hell out of this and that not that that's wrong. Yeah. But it wouldn't have it wouldn't have been sexy, right? And I w I I would have gotten seven views. One of would have by my mom and she would have been like, What is this? What are you what are you talking about? You know, because she's from Jersey City. You gotta read the room. Right. Now, but I think that it was good because I think that the point in this, as as I said, I try to tailor it to the magazine, is just that the theme of the magazine's gonna be hazmat. And I want people to understand that hazardous materials exist. It's something that's but become more frequent in our thing. we're responding to more of it. And I think it's become more normalized that as people get you know, th those types of curriculums that's been introduced in Firefighter one and two where you're you're walking out with a at least awareness and ops. it's because we're responding to these things. It's because they're happening. And and you and you know, have to keep training on them. And just like everything else, they're again building building construction, you know. you know, and unless you're Mittendorf or you know, or or Vinny Dunn, you know, it was never a sexy topic, but you know, those guys found it sexy and then they found a way to make it sexy for us so that we could understand it, you know. Good correlation. Yeah, thank you. You know, but But or or Branaghan too, I forgot. I shouldn't have left him out. But no, but but you know, just that's the point here is I I felt in order to make this show relevant and and and and and transitional into what we're talking about for the for this month is I'm gonna bring a guy like you on, Bobby, and I appreciate appreciate all you guys are doing. And that's just it. It's just you know, go out there, train, open a book, do some reference material. Just because you don't think you're a hazmat person or you don't have a hazmat mission doesn't mean it's not gonna happen. Nope. You're into fire service, you're in emergency services. Hasmat has now become officially part of our fire service more than more than it more than it ever wasn't before. You know, it used to be its own separate thing and we've realized that it's got to be integrated into our thing. so you know, it's fire fire the fire department has become fire and emergency services for a reason. And that's a good thing, right? We've evolved. We can make for another podcast on how we're probably underpaid and underappreciated for all the extra curriculars that we take on. But nonetheless, it's our responsibility. You got into this thing, so you gotta train for it and stay stay vigilant and stay good at it. So, for you hazmat nerds, you know, you glow worms out there, I I see you. I appreciate you. You're recognized, we know you. And then the rest of you is out there to think that it's a stupid thing, it's not, right? dabble into it, learn a little more about it. Because God forbid the event, the emergency, it's gonna pop off and your lack of preparedness or lack of taking it serious is all pun all jokes aside, you're gonna be caught with your pants down and and and nobody wants that in a fire service, right? Agreed. So anyway, like I said, Bobby, thank you, brother. Go check out him and Mike and the rest of the tribe that they have over there at the Hazmat Guys, check out their podcast. go read Fire Engineering's magazine for November. There's gonna be a lot of good stuff in there about Hazmat. if you didn't sign up for FDIC, I hope you do. Ready to take your training to the next level? FDIC International is where the fire service comes together to learn, connect, and prepare for the challenges of today and tomorrow. Join us April 12th through 17 in Indianapolis for a week of hands-on training. Classroom sessions led by fire service experts, and access to the latest products and innovations in the exhibit hall. Whether you're looking to sharpen your skills, discover new solutions, or bring valuable insights back to your department, FDIC delivers an experience unlike any other. Register today at FDIC.com/slash podcast. And I hope to see you out there. but yeah, this has been Dave McGlynn with the Fire Engineering Podcast Training Officer. Everybody stay safe. Thanks, guys.