התמלול המלא של A Kitchen Table Conversation About Fire Service Leadership

told you I did and you asked me to send you a quote. I had to go online and and figure out what a quote looks like. Okay. So I saw what it looked like. I said, okay, I'm gonna send them this and I sent it to you. And then you came back and you said, Okay, Chief wants to bring you in for I believe it was four days. And and then you asked me and it was like a month away. Or you got any time available this month. I had nothing scheduled. So I'm like, yeah, I can do that. And then I panicked because I had to quickly create a class. So I basically took chapter three of Step Up and Lead, which what is the meat and potatoes of what Step Up and Lead is really all about. But I actually took that and I created the class and I have no problem telling people that I I pretty much just read the slides because I didn't know I didn't know how to connect. And and this is a part of the story that that I don't even think I told Anthony. And and by the way, these two guys right here, Jim and Anthony are two of my best friends. in the fire service and in life. I love these guys dearly. So when you hear us joking around with each other, it's because we absolutely love each other. But I was teaching a class with in New Jersey that I was one of the speakers and and Vincent Dunn was a speaker. And I believe it might have been Mike Turpack. I I'm not sure. But I I just know I was the I was the the little leaguer that snuck into the big leagues and no one realized I don't belong there yet. And so I I said, Well, I need to portray myself as being a guy that knows what he's talking about. So I was direct with the audience. I I wasn't playful. I like to I I like to add humor to my presentation, but this was long before that. And so I'm just I just want to be professional. I got Vincent Dunn, you know, following me. And so I'm like, Yeah, I think I I think I might have impressed him. I wanna impress him, you know, because I'm not that I That's my main goal, but I I don't want this guy to think, how am I sharing a stage with this guy? The next day I get an email from Vincent Dunn, and he says, Frank, listen to your presentation. The content was great, but I have some advice. Smile more. That one thing I never expected to hear. Smile more. And I thought I was so locked in and so serious of trying to be so professional that I didn't really make it fun to learn. And I like to make it fun to learn. And so That was the start of me saying, Okay, l let me stop trying to be someone else and start figuring out who I am. And you two guys played a big role in in helping me figure that out. So thank you for that. How did we do that? Well, you first of all, Jimmy by being the one that invited me in and gave me the platform and started my career, because after Jimmy, the second thing, right after Jim, for whatever reason, the second one was the Connecticut Fire Academy asked me to come in so that, you know. We're speaking in Connecticut. The third one was a small department out in Texas. I have no idea where it came from. how how did they hear about me? But but that was I don't know, fourteen years ago. I don't even know how many years ago that was. but the the they've never stopped requesting speaking. But I think now it's based off a referral. the way that you have shaped me is really just from your example. I've read your books, I've attended your classes. Man, when I was studying for promotions, I was taking your promotional classes. And I've heard you how you conduct. I l I'll tell you exactly one of the things I learned from you, and I don't know if you actually call it this, but I call it because I think that's what I remember you calling is a tactical reserve. okay. Every fire that I've ever been to, and this is probably important to mention, let me back up. I had a a guy call me just about three weeks ago. He said, I'm reading step up and lead. it's on our promotional list. Can you give me some advice on what I need to study? And I said, Focus on chapter three and four. That's usually where the questions I'm sure would come from. But focus on three and four. Learn the bullet lists. you know, just it's easy it's an easy read. I think it'll be easy for you to retain. And then he asked me the best question ever. He goes, Okay, now between now and when I take this test, I may be called to act as a I may it be an incident commander. Can you give me some street advice? I said, Good for you. I said, first of all, good for you for asking that. He's not looking to just get a promotion. This guy's saying, What can I do? And so I told him, literally one thing I learned from from reading a book many years ago, one thing I learned from Turpak, and one thing I learned from you. And the thing that I learned from reading a book was you're if you're gonna be an incident commander, the mind under pressure. works differently than it does in a casual environment. Us three sitting here talking about a fire, it's easy to talk about what we how to fight a fire. But when you're there and all of a sudden people are screaming, my baby's in there, and the resources are getting there slower than you need them to get there. And you have a water supply problem and all of a sudden things start adding up. and and so the mind under pressure, what you need is one of two things to operate as effectively as you can, no matter how well trained you are. One is peer support. And the other is a memory support tool. Now, peer support, I say yes, your whole group of firefighters is peer support. However, when you're at the command post alone, if you didn't ask somebody with there, you don't have peer support at the command post. You may have a rapid intervention team five feet away. You might have a, you know, a somebody that's accountability officer, safety officer, but you're the one making the decisions unless you have people there with you at your command post. So what you're going to need is a memory support tool, a tactical worksheet. So that was the first

bit of advice I gave him. Second bit of advice was this. This is one that I learned from from Turpak. And not that I learned from him, but he made the point clear when he talked about the importance of doing a 360, every fire you go to. Because he told the story one time in class, ironically enough, out in Connecticut, of going around to the back of a building and seeing a young girl lying there that jumped. And he talked about how If if the three sixty was done on a p upon arrival, maybe that girl's still up in a window and we can get her out. So know what's happening on all sides of the building. The third thing is what I learned from you, tactical reserve. No matter what's happening, when we are fighting a fire, I want two engines, one ladder ready to go to work that aren't working. Maybe they're in a staging area, maybe they're on and here's why it's important because it takes time to get them there. Yeah. Right? So if everybody's working at a fire, All engine companies, all ladder c everybody's at work. Call for two engines and a ladder. And if you gotta turn back, turn back. There's a good chance they didn't even leave their town yet. Yeah. And and and being in Carney, I'm sure that it it it was longer certainly than probably for me, even though it always seemed longer than it probably was. But you guys, they were coming from another town, sometimes with us too. But Yeah, yeah, no, but but that mindset. Yeah, go ahead, man. I interrupt you. I'm sorry. No, no, you're right. But you'd hit the nail on the head. It takes time. there's one department we call in, they'll send two engines a ladder and a battalion chief, but they all come together. Which means ultimately they're coming as fast as the slowest unit. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that takes time. So let me call them early so I can get them to the scene. And and and then and it's it's inevitable who's coming out to change a bottle. who needs to go to rehab? you know, who's just you know, transitioning from one assignment to another and now we have to complete something, you know, we just need always need somebody until the fire's out. But that's why I think it's important you take classes, you have these conversations, listen to podcasts, read books, because the info you know, experience is not the best teacher in the fire service. Other people's experience is the best teacher. Learn from Jim Duffy, learn from Anthony Avell, learn from PJ Norwood, learn from these guys that have come before Vincent Dunn, Collapse of Burning Buildings. I mean, come on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, why wait for a tragedy to happen for us to say, I wish I knew more about that 'cause we we can do everything right and things will still go wrong. I can't believe there are so many departments out there 'cause you know, I mean you've been around just like I have and I I I like to ask what books are on their lists, you know, when I'm when I'm 'cause you know, I don't do as much leadership as I do strategy and tactics. and I like to ask, and so many places around the country do not use Vinnie Dunn's book. And I'm like, my god. that I I said if you're not using it, you at least have to read it. Read it, read it, know about it. Safety and Survival, great book, but Collapse of Burning Buildings was the book. that and John Warner, the books. He he talked about how it came about. he was at a fatal fire. He worked at a fatal fire. He was given an assignment to to with his crew. the same time I think I believe another lieutenant was given an assignment with his crew and the other lieutenant and his crew had lost their lives in a collapse. Twenty third Street Fire. Yeah, that's right. And and the only reason that he he was alive is he got a different assignment. And and I he talked to me personally about it that day that I told you we spoke together. I actually asked him, I said, how do you become an expert in collapse of burning buildings? I thought he was going to tell me he had a background in building construction. No, it was because of a collapse that occurred. That nobody anticipated. And then he had to learn about the thing that had killed his friends and co-workers. And could have killed him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So wh who wouldn't want to learn from that? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. He is Uncle Vinny, man. He is the best. Uncle Vinny. He writes five hundred words a day, he said still. He's amazing. Yeah, yeah. He's great. He's always he's he's past ninety, I think, now. Absolutely incredible. He's still loving life. Still loving life. Yes, absolutely. And sharing his knowledge, which is so valuable, like you just said, and that's just one topic he talked about and wrote about. He's written about so many things. John Norman is another one where people learning the trade and learning to be a company officer, you know, handbook attack, fire offers handbook of tactics. It's just broken down such great chapters. Boom, boom, boom, boom. And you can read a little every day. I call it a bathroom book. Read a chapter, you know. It's it's it is a great book. I think I think everybody needs to re I think everybody did read that book. But if you didn't read that book, you need to read that book many, many times. Yes, many times. Many many yeah, many versions of it too. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And we all use quotes from that book in our classes. You know, make sure we give credit to the people who b came before us. But I so often talk about things in his book, size up, His chapter on size up alone could fill a four hour class. And then some. Well, I mean every one of his chapters, I believe he turned into a four hour class, you know, or Yeah. it w it was yeah. And it that that book compl you know, totally guided my career, you know, as strategically, tactically, you know, everything that I did 'cause that book is is probably a little more focused on company officers, and Tactics. Yeah, tactics. I mean, you know, like all the stuff you learned about, you know,

roof operations and, you know, I I mean, you know, ladder operations, just like you know, such a such a great book. Such a great book. And both those guys are accessible. You know, that's what's great about social media today. Like like w we had known them before social media really became very popular. But th they're accessible. You can Get in contact with I get emails all the time, I'm sure you do, both of you, from people that have questions either about the book or something else, and are are just reaching out. But I have had conversations with both of them. I had a fire, I was an incident commander at a fire one time, and you know, I had one ladder company on a scene, it took a while, and I'm saying, Man, I don't know if I did the right thing with this ladder company. Should I put put here instead of here? And and again I called the tactical reserve, it's just waiting for him to come in. That's all I had is one ladder company in town. And then after the fire, maybe three, four days later, I actually reached out to to Vincent Don and I said, I got a question for you. If you have this type of fire, where would you put the first ladder company? He said, Exactly where you put them. I said, Good, good, 'Cause it just validated, thank you. I hearing it from the guy that wrote the book on it. And and he's such a humble guy too, you know, and and the nice thing about it too is I believe, you know, to to a lot of us, you know, the the Deputy Chiefs Association, Charlie Inn, they've they've almost made him more accessible to everybody in a way, you know, by by through that organization because he writes through that organization on the Facebook and things like that. And you know, we we actually were at his I I think it was his eighty fifth birthday at at Charlie Lynn's house. that's cool. Yeah, yeah. And he Funny story. He's and and my stepfather went with me. My stepfather was his driver like maybe thirty years ago and they hadn't seen each other in a really long time, so I bought him with me and you know, they say I have great pictures of the two of them sitting there talking and really, really cool. And so so they have like a big cake there for him, you know, and and and you know, they sing happy birthday and he makes the cut of the cake and you Mike Orienti, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Mike Gariente goes, chief, that's a great curve cut. I was like, my God, you're such a nut. But it was, you know, he he it it was it to me like that that was just, you know, just a fun time of of being in the company of of you know, of that guy, you know, like Alan Brunicini and people like that. You know, you've been in a company of and you're like, my god, like this guy is just, you know. So Brun Assini, I've read some of his work. I I I've seen him speak a couple of times, but I remember one time I go to FDIC and I'm there. I was teaching a a workshop, but mine was either over or didn't start yet. I don't remember, but I'm walking down the hall and I pass his. So I said, I'm just gonna walk in and sit in the back for a minute. I walk in and there he is sitting in his Hawaiian shirt. And he's just sitting down and everybody's it it looks like a campfire setting. And he's just talking to him. And I'm like, man, well what a great like you're not being preached to, you're being you're you're having a conversation with a guy that that's been there, done that. And he's just I I was really captured by that, just by his ease and hid the comfort. His humanness. Yeah, man. It was pretty cool. He was human, man. He was really, really human. If if if that's the best term I could use to describe him, that I mean there's lots of ways to describe him, but I think human was one of the the best things. The the last time I saw him, we were leaving the the board meetings at the FD fire engineering, we were in Tulsa, and the van was coming to take us to the airport and the door opened and he was sitting there on the front bench seat, and I somehow had positioned myself to be the first one to van. I said, Here's a great opportunity. So I sat next to him for about God, about about an hour and a half almost. And we just talked and everybody was talking, but I got to sit next to him, and and I and I I had a copy of the of Full Contact Leadership and I gave it to him. And he he asked me about so I showed it to him, but it was my book and it was all highlighted and everything else. But he was holding like this. I said, Well, I'm never getting that one back. So he took that and he said to me, you know, Well, what are you doing with the other book? And I said, The third edition should have been called the last edition. And you how he talked, Well, you want to do something like that. You know, you you just retired, your brand is a blah blah blah blah. He goes, You need to write the fourth, the third fourth edition. And I took it as an order. So when I came home, I started taking notes. And if if you look at the introduction of the book, I give like a whole, you know, sort of kudos to to Chief Brunissini, because it wouldn't have been written unless he unless he told me that day. And I remember when we got out of the van, he was going to a different terminal. And he got out first. I remember watching him walk away and that was the last time I seen him. Wow. Yeah, it was it was a very strong moment, in you have those moments and I'm sure we all have But that that's one like of my, best memories of of just That's a cool one. I was some of the guys I worked with went to see him speak you know, near the end and they said it was amazing because they he was probably it was a four hour class, I think. And he was probably two hours into it, he didn't even get off the first slide. And then by the end of it, they realize he's not using slides. He's just again talking with them and teaching them. And so it's you know, cause sometimes when you go see an instructor, you're like, you know, how many slides are there? Because he's not moving them very

quickly. Right, right. You know, but you don't get that way with him. It's just, you know, you're there. So yeah, he was something special. Do you remember when him and Tom Brennan did the the unplugged? You know and Brennan. Tom Brennan and Alan Brunissini just talking. No script, no slides, just talking on stage. What an opportunity to sit through that. He was another legend, and I I again another great moment. I I remember that they used to have the book booth was a different type of book booth years back. It was kind of an enclosed area, it wasn't that big, and he would be just sitting in there. So I was walking past and I seen him and I said, you know what? And this was before I knew Eileen. I said, I I gotta go, I gotta go, I gotta go say hello to him, man, because he's she's Tom Brennan, And I walked in and he looked at my thing, goes, Wow, Anthony Vill, man, wow. He goes, You know what? You have a great book, and he's telling me all this. And I'm thinking he don't even know who I am. I didn't think that, but he did, and and he everything with him was, Hey, you got time for a story? You got time for a story? And he always had a lesson in his stories and in, I I almost missed the flight because I hung out with him that long. But, you know, again, another guy that was was of that sort of, you know, generational like, you know, level as as Brunissini and and yeah, yeah, just just another great dude, man. So you and you talk about almost missing a flight. Jimmy, I gotta tell you a story. One day, Anthony and I had a same flight back, right? And and so I said, Well, first thing I'm gonna do is I call I call the airline and I said, I'm gonna upgrade to first class and let think that That they're buying a first class ticket for me. Not number one. But number two, after waiting to check in, he is his bag was overweight. And so he opens up his bag and I swear it was like Boom. stuff just pops out. He's taking his giant boots. He's like, Yeah, I don't need these anymore. He's throwing stuff away. I'm like, Must wanna put some stuff in my bag? I mean that's a fun trip though. I thought you were gonna tell the bathroom story. No, okay. I could tell the bathroom story. Anthony so this shows how diabolical you are. He loves he l I forgot about this. Who were we with Jim Duffy? I mean I Jim Duff. Jim Silvernail, I think. We would Silvernail. Dropped us off. I think that's where we were. Okay. I I apologize for a minute. My dogs are are gonna bark. But so here we were. We we went to that's a Dalmatian, by the way. That see, I have a labradoodle that is the most lovable dog ever. And then I have the Dalmatian, which is like the seed of Satan. That thing just rips my house apart. And I love them. Love them both. So yes, Anthony Avilla loves concerts. And so one day w Jimmy Silvernail just dropped us off at the airport out of St. Louis. We go into the airport and we walk into the restroom and Anthony goes into a stall and I said to him, I said, Anthony, you've been to a lot of concerts, right? He goes, Yeah, I said, What were some of the best concerts you ever went to? And I walk out of the bathroom and he's just having a conversation with random people about nobody. He comes and and I I don't wanna say what you called me cause because this is a you know children might be listening, but it started with an A and then with a hole. I will say that. There you go. Yes, you're evil. He used to call you the fire service yuppie. There are people out there that you know that hold you on this highest pedestal, which I do as well. But they don't know how evil you are. Evil's a strong word. Well, evil genius. How about that? Is that better? As long as you had genius on the end. It doesn't seem that that bad. Yeah, of course. Of course. Evil genius. I I I like to have fun. I listen, I mean, We have a lot of fun. We have a lot of fun, man. My my wife just asked me, she says, What are your favorite conferences to go speak at? And I said, Well, F D I C, of course. She goes, but I mean, outside of that, I know that's your favorite, but Of all the conferences you go to, she goes, Which which ones are your favorite? And I said, There's so many great ones. She goes, How about do you like going to ones where you know the other speakers? I'm like, Absolutely. That's the fun of it. Listen, the meeting is great. We love teaching. We're passionate about it. So that's why we do what we do. We believe we have a strong message. We believe we have the ability to convey that message. I feel like it's my purpose in life is to deliver this message. Nothing to me is better though than the meetings after the meeting. The meals. Jimmy spilling drinks to where we gotta get him a sippy cup. I still have my sippy cup. You still have your sippy cup. Yeah, you need to tell that story how that started and how you brought a sippy cup at St. Elmost for me. I didn't bring the sippy cup. I didn't bring I think it it was either Galliano or or Paul Combs. One of those two brought the sippy cup. And I don't so because you I believe, if I'm not mistaken, you spilled a a drink all over Mike Galliano's wife. Am I correct? It's Anne. Anne, yes. So you s and that was at a different conference. So then here we were again out in Saint Louis. It's probably even the same weekend, but we're out in Saint Louis and and yes, I so I believe it was Mike Galliano that gave you a sippy cup just To prevent and I think you actually did spill something on the table that day too. No, I did not. Stop. So what happened when I spilt a Guinness that I didn't even have a sip out of yet? It rolled across the table in slow motion. In slow motion. And Anne is dressed to the nines and it's heading right for it. I'm like, no. The sweetest person in the world, by the way. yes, absolutely. And she was like, it was not I'm still mortified about it years later. But the Sippy Cup came out in St. Elmo's basement. The waiter brought out the Guinness I ordered in a Sippy Cup. That

is correct. That's right. But again, you say, you were just saying how going to conferences where you know people, look at this group that started at St. Elmo's the Tuesday of FDIC every year. That it's grown and I I don't wanna say this, it sounds like I'm It's almost grown too big because you don't have enough time to talk to everybody. It started with five of us and now it's tables and tables, you know, and and it's actually a wonderful time. What is it now, Frank? It's about twenty, twenty four or something like that. the the most we've had, we we had I think we had twenty four, twenty six one year, but yeah, it's typically twenty. Yeah, it's down in the base down in the basement. It it almost feels like two different parties, two parties of ten, you know, because that's how you fit it. Yes. But it's great. It it is great. We were up Anthony and I were up with all the Jersey guys up in in Maine. And there was like seven people from New Jersey in Maine. Go figure the the accents of Maine and the accents of there. And I was the only one without an accent, you know. But That was a that was a great trip. It it really was great conference, great people, Rusty Ricca and the New England fools. Well, the nice thing is the nice thing is is running into this the same people over like FDIC is just, you know, it's just the the granddaddy. It's the monster, you know, and you see everybody and you try and, you know, do FaceTime with everybody and hand you know, and because you love them all, you know, but it's a smaller conferences where we kind of crisscross and and and and sort of we we we crossed paths, you know, so many times in different places that like where where were we when you drove me home? We were in Albany, I think. We were in Albany, Fosny. Fosny. We were in Fo we were in Lake George. you're right. Yeah, that's right. It was Lake George. That one was Lake George. Another great conference. Yeah. Yeah, we were in Lake George. Yeah, that was a fantastic conference and and Yeah, we I got the I got the privilege of driving Anthony Avilla home. That was a fun drive though. That was a fun drive. It went very, very quickly. I don't know if that's a privilege or a punishment. And we stopped at Steve's Sizzling Stakes. Yeah, so I and that's another thing I do. Anytime I go around if I if I'm speaking at a department or a conference, I'm like, you know what? If I have time, I want to take in a sights. Like I just went to Devil's Tower in Wyoming. Yeah, I saw that photo. I saw that picture. Yeah, that was pretty awesome. But two weeks before Jimmy, I g I gotta talk to you about this, Jimmy. I don't know why you. But two weeks before I went to Plymouth Rock. cool. No, it's not cool. It's like a pebble. The thing's like this big. Yeah. Jimmy. Jimmy, this is a sham. Why are you telling me? I thought Plymouth Rock like this they're gonna be the size of my block. this is where they landed and the this giant rock. No, it's like this little Really? You didn't

know that? Yes. D Google it. Google it. It is, it's small. my whole childhood was a lie when I saw that thing. I've been there, I've seen it. but I I knew it was a small rock when I when I was going there. I don't know why I knew that, but I did. Why does that have to do with me though? I was born in New York. I don't know, Jimmy. For some reason I want to blame you 'cause you live closer to it than me. okay. Yeah. I don't know. That's my logic. That's how that's how this brain works. But what if you're up in that area you have the Battleship Row, you have all the museums, the heavy cruisers in Salem and you know, there's so much military history up there. There's the shipbuilding during World War Two up there is a place you should go visit and realize how small these ships were then. You know, how they fit two thousand people on these ships. I went to Buffalo last year and I I was speaking for New York professional firefighters and I I said and I said that I'm I go How close am I to Niagara Falls? I you're 15 minutes away. And it was freezing out. It was 10 below. And I said, Yeah, but I gotta go. I gotta go. And all the paths there were like iced over because, you know, all the mist from the fall. So I'm like holding on to fences, slipping, sliding down. But I got some great pictures, and the fall was almost completely, I mean, not completely frozen over, but it was so, so frozen over, man. But it was so cool. You saw from the Canada side. No, no, the New York side. Dude, that's the poor version. Yes, go to Canada. I'm telling you right now, man. That's that's the Plymouth Rock same disappointment. yeah? Yeah, but you gotta see it from the other side. That's that's the Rainbow Bridge or something they call it. Or Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't usually carry my passport. Yeah, to get across I almost went. I I was there just earlier this year and I almost went. I had a little bit of time. I'm like I don't know, man, by the time I walk over that bridge and back to get to the airport. And then it just as it turned out my flight kept getting delayed more and more and more to the point where it got canceled and I ended up having to drive home from Syracuse, but or from that area, I'm sorry, but it was it was it wasn't too bad. So recently I I I taught in North Dakota for the North Dakota's Instructors Conference and I went a couple of extra days And I ran to the car and the first day I got out to the airport, I drove 200 miles to Montana. And you know, I went I went to Montana, had a meal, I made my mark there. And you can you can read between the lines on that one. and the next day I drove to South Dakota because I had never been to South Dakota, so that was another like 90 miles, you know, and and then I taught North Dakota. so yeah, I'm at forty-nine states now. Are you fifty, yeah, Frank? I'm not at fifty yet. I still I I I still think, you know, I have one of the decoders and I I I still think that I did not do Nevada. I have to look and see. Okay, that's in my my only one is Arkansas now. They have fire departments in Arkansas. And we just lost the whole Arkansas audience. I'm only kidding. They actually have some pretty good ones. But yeah, no, but I've never been there. So I gotta I gotta look and see what conferences are there or I know they have the hot springs there. You know, it's It's just one of those places I gotta go to I haven't been to. It's pretty awesome, yeah. But but that's what the speaking has done for us. It has given you this opportunity to s to me to see this great country and so many different places and so many different people and and places I never would have gone. And some of them I've been to a couple of times. It also gives you when I speak to departments, I tell them, you know, I I'm one of the guys and I that like you guys. that have traveled so much that I know that the problems we have in Hudson County, New Jersey are not much different than the problems they have in Arkansas, or the problems they have in Maine, or the problems they have for the people that just attend anybody that goes to FDIC from wherever they're from. It's very similar. And so whereas you might think there's conflict, there's drama, there's some toxic Traits of some of our leaders in our organization. You might think that that's just for you alone when it's really everywhere. Ready to take your training to the next level? FDIC International is where the fire service comes together to learn, connect, and prepare for the challenges of today and tomorrow. Join us April 12th through 17 in Indianapolis for a week of hands-on training, classroom sessions led by fire service experts, and access to the latest products and innovations in the exhibit hall. Whether you're looking to sharpen your skills, discover new solutions, or bring valuable insights back to your department, FDIC delivers an experience unlike any other. Register today at FDIC.com/slash podcast. Actually, I wanted to stop to go there. As you guys travel, we like you just said, we think we're unique. Every single problem we've had, every solution we've come up with. They're living in the same environment. The only differences are places like Chicago, New York, they have so many firefighters. Most of the firefighters in the country, they have the same problems, but they have eighteen people on duty, or some places in Connecticut, they have five people on duty. And then the volunteer fire departments where most people c like sail on Long Island, they commute to the city for work. There's not enough volunteers. At home. So what I see they're doing now, they're doing automatic aid. So five towns will get dispatched to the same call. When I was a volunteer, they wouldn't call for help until they got there. And now you're adding that lead time that Chief Avillo talks about all the time. The further away you get people, the longer it takes them to come. But today they're starting to dispatch multiple towns to the same place, but they

have the same problems. They have the volley ticks, they have The union versus management, the management, the guy who was book smart never was a real firefighter. All that no matter where you go, St. Louis County, you go to Southern Florida or the Panhandle of Florida. It's all the same. I live in Durham, Connecticut. You know, it's a very rural community. And it used to be the farmers were the volunteers, but now the the farms are turning into housing tracks. And people are commuting to Hartford and to New Haven. So where do you get the help? So they have different problems than us in career or combination departments. We have people on duty. But I look at some of these communities, I don't know how they do it, and God bless them. You know, it's amazing. But the personalities that I talked a little bit about at the beginning with ADD, OCD. Every fire department has those characters. And Frank, you break it up in a way, the hard chargers and you know, give a quick description of how you describe the people that are in every firehouse. Yeah, listen, I f like i i in first of all on step up your teamwork. I I put into like more than a dozen categories, but I I I like to condense it in the class and just say you got hard chargers, coasters, complainers, and corner mutts. Okay, and hard chargers get things done. you guys are hard chargers. you know, we all know people, every organization has hard chargers. If they're functioning, they have people that are doing more than most of the other people, and they're the people that are making the decisions, they're people that put in the work and they get things done. Coasters, I I move right from hard chargers to coasters for a reason, because my class is about trying to develop a healthy culture, okay? So why do you go from hard charger right to coaster? Because coasters aren't a problem. Coasters are only a problem because coasters do the minimum. Okay, let's put that out, they coast, they do the minimum. That's not a problem unless your standard is low or you have no standard at all. If think about this, if you if you played professional football baseball for the for the Brewers in this 2026, they just won the World Series. Anyone that coasted on that team was a hard charger because their standard was high, right? The way they played was was was elevated at the next level. So coasters aren't a problem unless you have no standard or a low standard. Com complainers are a problem because complainers have a problem for every solution, right? But complainers and corner mutts look and sound exactly alike, but they're not. Here's the difference: they'll both complain about things. They'll both seem to be rocking the boat or poking holes in the boat when everybody else is trying to row the boat. But in reality, what's happening is this complainers actually care. Cornermuts don't. They never did. There's nothing you could do to make them care. I'm not saying they're bad people, but they're not really in it for the right reasons. And that's in every profession. It's not the fire department, every profession. There's people that just stumbled into something, fell into something, or or took a job for a reason that isn't the reason what we where the community needed them to take this job. The point is complainers may look and sound like corner muds, but they're just frustrated. They're they're they're just kind of burnt out. Maybe they feel micromanaged, maybe they felt underappreciated. And I'll tell you where I had myself a great education in complainers. And and make to making sure that I differentiate between them and cornermotes. I'm teaching a class where I talked about a couple things, and I used to say this at every class that positive people don't care if you're positive. If you are, then that's good. They'll hang out with you, they'll spend time with you because they like being around you. If not, they'll probably just avoid the time with you. But negative people, and and I still agree with that. But here's the part that I've learned to adapt. First, I'll tell you exactly what I said. Negative people, they miserable people want you to be miserable too. They want to converge. Right? Right. I still think there's a a portion of that that's true. Misery does love company. I agree with that. But at the same time, I'm driving, I'm getting a drive back to my hotel after teaching this. And a guy says to me, Hey, look, he goes, I like your class. I took a lot of notes. He shows me his notes. He had six pages of notes. I was like, wow. He goes, but there's something you said that I disagree with. Now, when a guy takes six pages of notes, he's gonna tell me something he disagrees with. I'm pretty excited to hear that. So I said, you know, what is it? He goes, When you said negative, people want you to be negative too. Well, he said I said, Why do you disagree with that? He goes, 'Cause I was the negative guy in my department for two years. And I wasn't trying to convert anybody. I just needed to be heard. He says I was frustrated. And we talked about things. He was burnt out. He felt micromanaged. This was something that when he started talking to me, he said, What I needed was for someone to tell me. That I was right to feel the way I feel. Meaning validate that I'm that I'm not crazy because of the things that are happening in our department is frustrating me. How come no one else seems to be bothered by this? So I needed number one, I needed validation, but number two I also needed someone to pull me out of the Because what happens is this, and Jimmy, y you might remember this story. I I I said first time I came to teach at your organization that we talked about at the beginning of this, I was talking about negative up, positive down. Okay. gripes go up, not down, that whole thing. Complain to your level and above, don't complain in front of people you're supposed to be leading. Yes. Now I wish I remember this guy's name. I don't. But during a break at

one of those classes one of the officers runs me down in the hall and he says to me, Hey, he goes, You're here because of me, aren't you? I said, What? He goes, They when they called you to come in and talk, they they they mentioned me, didn't they? He points at his name and he goes, Look, and the cause if paranoid had a had a like visual, this is it, right? I'd never seen a guy more paranoid. He's like, D tell me the truth. I can take it. I'm like, I don't think you can, you know But he says, I'm serious, they're here, you're here. I said, No, nobody mentioned your name. They asked me to come in and conduct the class for all the groups. Why do you think I'm here for you? He goes, 'Cause you just said don't sit at the kitchen table and complain in front of people you're supposed to be leading. That's all I do. I said no. I said no. I said, no, but here's the thing. I'm happy for you that you can recognize that. Because you can't solve a problem if you refuse to acknowledge it exists in the first place. So, but that, you know, when you talk about the hard chargers, coasters, complainers, corner months, the complainers are the tricky one. Because I think sometimes they just get stuck there. Sometimes, well, if you think about it, I mean, there are times in my career, and I'm sure both of your career. Everyone's career, because I asked this in the classes. Raise your hand if you ever said I don't care anymore. I'm done. I give up. I hate working here. Every hand always goes up. We've all been through that period where we went through this, man. I know, I'm done, I'm done, kind of vibe. Sometimes what happens is the moment that puts you there has passed, but mentally we stay there. And then we sit at the kitchen table and we're complaining about how much this job sucks. When in reality the only thing sucks is us complaining about. Job's not perfect. Never will be, no job ever will be. But sometimes we are the reason that this group is so miserable and we don't even realize we're the ones bringing that misery to the table. And people need to be you are so right, and I can put a face with the person you s just spoke about. I made it I made it a point never to bitch down. It's my my father taught me that, whatever. I could go on and on and on. And sometimes I've had people come into my office and talk to me, you know, and ask me why don't I fight for them? Well, when I'm in the office with the chiefs, I argue for them and bring up their complaints, but at the end of the day, the chief makes the final decision and this is how we're gonna do it. And my job is to bring it down. I can't go To a meeting with my people or at the kitchen table and say, then you know what? The chief's a jerk, he's a pain in the ass. So I never showed that side. Bottom line is when it I'll argue and fight, and the chief will get angry at me for the things I brought up. But at the end of the day, sometimes he would agree with me and I'd bring good news, and other times I would have to bring bad news. But I never said the chief sucks. I may have thought after I retired, I did a lot of that. But before that I never ever talked down about my bosses. I won't say ever, because it possibly that did slip out, but I try to do that. But there are officers and senior people who, like you said, either try to convert them or sell their opinion and and have the misery loves company. And but that's just their nature. They see the dark side and Teddy Roosevelt said, complaining about a problem without a solution, you call them whiners. Yeah, yeah. that's Teddy Roosevelt, I have a book of just his quotes. He's absolutely incredible, was absolutely incredible. but you are so right. but you do have to have a certain persona. You think about Bobby Halton, we all had to wear ties, except for Alan Brutassini at FDIC, correct? Anthony, I know had his tie retied. I've had my tie retied. But if you're gonna be the leader, I believe you have to sell a positive attitude that you believe in what you're doing. You believe in where we're headed. Or we don't believe where it is, but let's see what we can do about it. And Frank, you and I have had these conversations, Chief of Villo, you and I have had these conversations. about sell yourself, sell the mission. You know, if you're complaining about the mission, it kind of slows your people down from moving up, I believe. I could be wrong. Everybody's different, so every personality is different. But we need to work as a group on the fire ground and hopefully in the firehouse. That will be impossible to happen all the time. But try to. But on the fire ground, we have to be perfect. So here's my question, Frank. Can a hard charger be both good and bad? Can you have a hard charger that is a bad influence, but maybe he's disguised as a hard charger? Probably a really, really heavy duty informal leader, maybe. I I don't know. As you were talking about, I was like, you know, I I I I get the hard charger, I know exactly where it is, but can a hard charger influence a culture to, you know, be bad? Yeah, for sure. think about this. and here's where here's where I think we're having a bit of a cultural dilemma in the fire service. Because we have a lot of people in social media have platforms like you guys have here. And they have a podcast and they're out there basically saying, you know, screw authority and they may not think they're they're they may not be saying those words, but they're saying it. They're saying, you know, your chiefs don't know what they're talking about and they're They're saying, policies are a bunch of crap. It's not the case. Rogue. Yeah. They're yeah, and they're and they're telling people stuff that can get them hurt. If maybe, maybe get them physically hurt, but definitely hurt their careers. You know, because some of the stuff that that some people somehow are saying out there on social media. Some of it has consequences. And the fact that they're saying it and getting away with

saying it at their department doesn't mean you can get away with doing it at yours. Yeah. They come across as hard chargers. Absolutely. You're right. But the message They come across as hard chargers. And and you ha and you wonder, what's their what's their resume? Like how many fires have they seen? I remember somebody was was making a comment about Brian Emenecker, and you know Brian Eminecker, true hard charger, right? Right, the real deal. Camden firefighter, hell of a guy. But somebody made a comment about him doing something wrong in a picture. And I remember his comment back to the guy was, Hey, and this was on I think this was during Hell's Night or Devil's Night when they had like, you know, the whole town was being lit up. They didn't even have, you know, any any tanks left, you know? It's just just try to put water on everything you can, leave somebody there and go to the next one. But somebody made a comment about him in a picture and I remember him saying, Hey, look, son, I don't know Who you are, how old you are, or how long you've been on a job, but I promise you that building has seen more fire than you have in your career. And I thought I said, Yeah, that's pretty funny right there. But but that's the thing. I'm and and I don't like my style of of leadership and communication is not to want I don't want to be confrontative. I don't. So I try not to, but some stuff you can't help but to say, hey, look, let's let's call it. Let's call it what it is. if you're trying to get clicks, if you're trying to sell shirts, that's fine. I got no problem with that. But I hope your message is one that's not gonna get people hurt, their careers or physically hurt. Be careful who you're influencing because you may not be influencing in the right direction. Right. And be careful who you allow to influence you. And Jim, your sister wrote a book. Don't don't press send, right? Don't hit send Don't press send, correct. Yeah, don't press send. A mindful approach to social media is what the topic of the book is. It's mostly aimed at adolescence, but it it's good for us as well. One of these things about these hard charges you just talked about that could be bad, what I have found this person is usually real really smart, a good hard charging firefighter, but things aren't happening fast enough for him. He and they think they're better than everybody else. Why can't everybody some of the smartest people in the world can be abrasive because they want you to be them. One of the hardest things for me to learn as a company officer was everybody's not as motivated as me. That was a big hit in the head. I I didn't think there was anybody in the fire service who wasn't motivated. And that was so you have to learn. Everybody has different reasons to be in there. And the the hard charger that's negative can't accept that well, this guy can't do a a whole system to save his life. Well, that's okay. Put him on an engine company. Do you know what I mean? He doesn't have to be a rescue guy or a truck guy. I've learned in business, Jimmy, and I've learned being a coach that your your hard chargers will also change. Like i if you you got a handful of people, and let's just say you got a department of sixty and you got five hard chargers. It's not a bad place. It's actually not bad because five could run an organization of sixty. They can. They can lead it is what I mean. But those five may change over the course of time. something happens in somebody's personal life, somebody retires, and a couple more step up. And and then those couple have the ability to influence people. And it's not always an officer. You know, a lot of times, you know, you'll have a firefighter. I I had some firefighters on my group that had more influence over the firefighters than some officers did. And it didn't make the officers bad officers. It just They were the type of person that, hey, people valued them, And but what happens is also as you go and it this is what I tried to explain to them. This this this helmet right here is different than the white helmet. Okay? And you guys know this. This helmet right here, yeah, it's easy to complain about the organization not getting things done. Then all of a sudden you got a white helmet on and you realize and not even a white helmet, the shield. When the shield changes and you become an officer, you are the organization. So your job isn't is no longer to sit down at that kitchen table and around and I've done it. I fell into this this place before where you're sitting around and you're complaining. Your job is now to say, Hey, in a world full of problem finders, we exist to solve problems. So what do we need to do to become the best group of problem solvers out there? And then just lead your organization in the right direction. And you'll make mistakes, but that's fine. As long as you're moving in the right direction. Absolutely agree. Absolutely agree. I would like to ask you as we're getting towards the end of our show, summarize briefly of all the things we've had today and what you would like to leave our listeners with. Frank, and then we'll go to Chief Avilla like we do every month. Yeah, everything that guy, Anthony Avillo, says, is worth listening to. Okay? Tainted with some bullshit. Yes, some people may call it that. I I th I think I think where we are right now is is just just don't stop learning, but just know that there's credible sources and there's questionable sources. There's entertainers and there's educators. And you're and I'm okay with all of it. That's the thing. I don't want to sound like I'm saying, Hey, you know, don't take a class from this guy 'cause you're gonna be educated or you're not gonna be educated, but you're gonna be entertained. No, take the class. Take the class, be entertained, but know the difference. Know the difference between who's telling you something that can help advance your career and enhance your life, and who's telling you

something that, hey, I'm gonna t share some stories. Like, for example, when I wrote Common Valor, and Anthony, thank you by the way. You've always been a supporter of that book. Great book, man. But what that was the first book I ever wrote. Thank you. When I wrote that book, Common Valor, two things about it. One is The guys that I wrote about in that book will at and and this is in the introduction, they'll even tell you, hey, what we did here is not textbook. It is not what we recommend you would do. But when you are given that situation where you have to make a split-second decision and and it's a life or death decision, and you make a decision, well, this is what this book is about. We made decisions. And and for the good or the bad, however it ended, this is the result of it. This is what's real out there. And and and I can tell you this, I think you guys would agree, we're all we are all fantastic incident commanders twenty four hours after our fires. Right? I mean, w w we're we're kind of educated, we've made some good decisions, but at the end of the day we've also made parking lots. You know? Everybody has. Everybody has after their fires looked back and said, you know what, if I can do that again, I would do this, this, this, and this. And that's okay. Learn from that and move on. But I got off topic here. You now you now you want to tell me I don't have A D D? Because I don't even remember what your question was. Well we c we call that what you spoke about infotainment. Yeah infotainment. There you which is fine. You give the information but you make smile. I like being entertained like the rest of them. I watch comedians too. I just watched the Ovon special. I laughed. but we are in a time where with AI, with social media, with podcasting, so much great content is out there, but there's some imposters out there too. And you have to be careful. That's all I'm saying. Be careful with with who you let influence you. Well, thank you. Those are posit good positive words. Chief Villo, closing remarks. I I I just wanna thank our friend Frank for coming on today. I mean, I looked at the clock and I I had a whole list of what influence your books, all this stuff. We didn't even talk about any of that. No. It's so crazy. But it's just like when we're, just being out, and the conversation goes so easy because, you know, we we have so respect for each of you know each one of us, you know, and we've been friends for such a long time. Thank you, Frank, for coming on here. Frank Viscuso is a machine. An evil machine. An evil genius machine. An evil genius machine. Yeah, listen. Read his books, your new book, One Degree of Difference, that's a little bit a little bit outside the the normal Frank Viscusso box, I I suppose. I haven't read it yet, but congratulations on that. Yeah, well listen, I've I've ri I've written a novel before. What happened is it's just so to put that one in perspective, I'm more excited about that book than anything I've ever written. And the the reason is this is is if anyone has read my book Flashpoint, I talk about The four stages of team development. And I teach that and step up and lead to. But then then I talk about eight steps to take to become a fully developed team. And and actually this is the book right here, right? It's eight steps. And it's written like a normal book. Just a normal book with, you know, some highlighted stuff and some some chapter summary and all that fun stuff, like a regular leadership book. One degree of difference takes the same exact content. It writes it. in a story, it's as a novel. And you might want to say it's it's it's historical fiction because there it is based on true events and every conversation that occurs in the book actually occurred, but I I just create it between these two characters and the characters are fiction. But you have a a a young guy who's you know, running a business and his and his organization's kind of struggling. And he's leading a team and he's got five people he's responsible for, and those five are responsible for sixty. Back to what we were just talking about. Yeah, five people. He could run an organization sixty. But he's struggling to get these five people to to operate the way that they once did. And he's he doesn't know what to do about it. And now it's affecting his personal life. Sleepless nights and challenges at home, all of that. And he's on his way kicking your dog. Yeah. Yeah. He's on his way to work. one day and he basically to summarize that he gets stuck at a fire scene and he and he can't pull out because they charge the the hose and he's he's just sitting here going, This is great, this is my life, right? This is perfect example of where my life is and he's like, I can't go anywhere. So he gets out and he watches them and they make a they make a grab, they put out a fire, he sees them and he goes, Wow He's like like how with life on the line, how could they perform at such a high level when I can't get my group to even agree on what coffee we should have i in our break room. So he meets that deputy chief and the next day he basically goes to the firehouse and he says, What I saw yesterday, is that something that's teachable? And he says, It is. And he's and he basically says, Are you asking for you? He says, Yeah, could you teach me how to operate my team the way your team runs? And he says I can, but it would take eight days, not eight consecutive days. Eight random days. And specific days, not random, but specific days in specific locations. For example, one day will take place at a D one wrestling match, and that's a lesson he wants to teach him. One day takes place on a baseball field, one day takes place at West Point Academy, a couple days take place in a firehouse, one during training, one at the kitchen table. And he's teaching them something every day at the hospital. A day takes place. And and each one is a lesson. And at the end of it, the guy takes notes and I give

the notes of the lessons. And and I'm really proud of the story. And and I think that whether you're if you're a firefighter or if you're not a firefighter, there's value in it. You know, especially if you're a volunteer firefighter, or if you're a firefighter and your your spouse is in another business, read it and let your spouse read it. and I and I think that if you like stories and novels, it's a different way to learn leadership. It's and there are tons of books out there, leadership parables, I love them. I've always loved them, but that's why I decided to g give it a shot. Very good, man. Yeah, good luck on that man, but excellent, man. Excellent. Thank you. Yeah, looking forward to it. I actually I actually have it. I just haven't sat down and read it yet. all in all We're still trying to make a difference. We're all three of us retired. we don't get the adrenaline rushes we used to get when we were standing in front of a burning building, but we're still making a difference. And and I think that's wonderful. For me, that's important. And I know for both of you guys, it's really important you can make a difference. Well, what did Neil Young say? I'm not gonna retire, I'm gonna retread. I don't know about that. Retread's kinda tough. You gotta get you gotta get that you gotta strip the old off and put the new on. That's how they retread. Mm-hmm. Again, we're getting to the end of the show and I'm not gonna summarize anything because Frank and Anthony spoke really well. This is probably the quietest I've ever been on this show. Isn't that true, Chief of Villa? Yes, you'll you're always kinda quiet when a New Jersey guy is on the show. Because we don't 'cause we don't stop talking, that's all. Well, but I'm guilty of that too. You guys know that. But anyway. Yeah. Great show though. Actually, this year I got asked to speak at the City of Wallingford's nine eleven ceremony. And I figured out it wasn't because I was smart, it was for these two reasons. It was because I was born in New York City and I like to talk. So they invited me to speak. I only spoke for about twenty minutes, but that's that's besides the point. But what I wanna do is we're in November and November makes us think about our careers. How many holidays, birthdays, all the things that we missed while we were at work. But we were making a difference. But sometimes our family had to take the brunt of that. But we built our own family, and I have a picture here. We can have our own Thanksgiving dinners and bond in the firehouse. And we can make that. That is so important. My wife used to introduce me to families that I'd never met of her, say, see, he's not imaginary. I really have a husband, you know, and and that's something. And to the volunteers, again, you have sometimes have to leave your families during holidays, birthdays. Frank, I'm gonna tell one story about you, and it's probably the proudest thing that you've ever done. you were asked to do a keynote at FDIC when we

had the summer school. And as you said, you were a coach, you have two boys that were playing in a big big game, and when it was rescheduled for that time, you told FDIC that you're not gonna be able to do the keynote. And the keynote at FDIC, if you've ever been there, some of the listeners. It's amazing, it's a big, big opportunity. And you passed on it because of your boys and you took care of your family. And I think that that says volumes of about Where your heart is. And and I think that's so important. I said, I appreciate you bringing that up. an an interesting thing about that is Bobby called me up and he said, Hey, we rescheduled and he told me about it. He says, So you're you're the keynote speaker. I said, Bobby, I I can't that weekend. He goes, Don't tell me that. I said, I can't. I said, my boys are playing in the all American games and I said, I I I just can't do it. And he wasn't he I I knew I knew Bobby real well. How how I loved him. but the vibe I got was like, he's not happy, right? And we got off the phone and the next day I remember I said, Let me just call him and make sure he understands I'm I'm not turning that down because I'm doing another conference. I'm turning that down because this is important for our family. And so I I called him up and I said, Hey, you know what? And I explained it to him and I and then I said to him, But let me just ask you a question. Did I just blow my opportunity to keynote? yeah and if I did I did. He goes, No, no, no. He goes, No. What what I would suggest is do it next year. We'll put you down. And and I was happy that he did that, but he said, you know, have your have your son when he's watching it know that you passed it up the year before to be at his baseball game. So he knows, you know, how much that meant to you. I said, All right. I can do that. So to Bobby's credit, you know, when I when I did make that decision, I thought I blew it, but he d he said you didn't blow it. He actually told me he admired it, which was really cool. And I miss man I miss Bobby a lot. He truly was a good man. And I'm just gonna tell another story. My brother was sick, very sick, you know, not long to live. And I was scheduled to speak at FDIC and and then I called and asked How long before FDIC did I had to let him know? So I got a phone call back the next day because I I spoke to Ginger, not to Bobby. Bobby called me next day, he goes, if you come to teach at FDIC, you will never ever speak here again. You take care of your brother. So he he definitely understood, you know. He was a bic, a Bronx Irish Catholic. You know, and that was a derogatory term way back in the day. but he wears wore it proudly. Hey listen he he ironically enough Diane's texting me right now speaking of Bobby. She you know, I don't know if the I don't know if she's listening to this right now or if it's just She can't be. It's being recorded. That's cool. No, so one day I was out in Menlo Park, California. And I was I went to see Mavericks, the big surf place. Right. And I'm sitting there in front of Maverick's surf shop and I see that Bobby is out in Hawaii. And so I text him and I said, Bobby, I said, here I am in in California thinking, man, I I got the best speaking gig in the world right now and you're out in Hawaii. And I said, you trump me. And and he texts me back and and we just went back and forth a little bit. And my very last text was, I love you. And and he wrote it back and two days later he was gone. Yeah. He always ended his conversations with I love you. We I mean any a anybody that you know you talk to him a lot was always I love you at the end of the conversation, man. Always. Yeah, good good a good man. Very, very, very missed. But he made a mark. He certainly didn't one thing that I believe I had, but we learned from him. You'd meet him in the hallway at FDIC. Thousands of people around. He'd be looking at you no matter how many people were behind me. He would always look you right in the eye. And I try to always do that. And we were just talking about social media the other day. One of the things that I think social media is costing us is that our younger folks, and age isn't part of it, I think social media, we don't look at each other. I've sat on oral interviews for promotions andor hiring. They answer the questions correctly, but they don't look at you. They look down. They and and I think that's something social media is costing us. But he was the king of that. All this stuff is happening and he could close that all out and continue his conversation with you. And except for Jack Murphy. Jack Murphy be tugged him on his arm and go, Come on, we gotta be here. We gotta be here. Jack Murphy was was his keeper. Another great man. Jack Jack and I are actually speaking f in New Jersey this weekend and next week we're doing a ground scraper class together, which I'm really, really really looking forward to because he's I'm I'm more the down on the ground nuts and bolts guy. And he's more of that that this real technical yeah, yeah. So I th I think the class is gonna go really well, man. I'm I'm I'm well I'm hoping it doesn't, I I think I'm really excited for it. sure, that's a good combination, man. He w he's n just another great guy. Yeah. And and the other thing is Bobby and I had the same birthday. And I don't think we ever shared it with each other that that, I I found that out after he passed. really? And I was like, damn. My sister has the same birthday. Really, June sixth. Yeah. Yeah. I I never I never realized it and until he passed when I saw it, I said, my God. I don't think we ever shared that with each other that we had the same birthday. Wow. Wow. Yeah, big regret. Well listen, I don't want to get Nat mad at us, but we should probably be signing off pretty soon. But I wanna say to both of you and to Nat, Happy Thanksgiving. God bless you all. And to all the firefighters working the volunteers who have to leave their families. Have a safe and healthy Thanksgiving. And we'll see you next month. And I love you guys. Love you guys too. Love you too, guys. You guys are the best, man. Thanks for having me on. Thank you. Well, thanks for being here. And Nat, you can shut us down.