התמלול המלא של How Porn Addiction Keeps you Stuck in Peter Pan Land (Ep. 210)

37 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:24.960 love to get you more information. Perhaps we can do 38 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.479 just a free zoom call where I can explain a 39 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.360 few options. Get to know you, you get to know me, 40 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:34.120 and again love to help you. To reach out to me. 41 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:41.240 Email me at Bandofbrothers dot care at gmail dot com. 42 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:44.759 All right, let's get back to the podcast. Well, guys, 43 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.759 I want to introduce Caleb to you this afternoon or 44 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:51.639 whenever you're listening to this. He is a therapist, he 45 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.800 is my friend. He is a member of the Finding 46 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.479 Traction alumni and so welcome aboard, Caleb. 47 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:01.479 Thank you, Vern, it's great to be here. 48 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:05.400 Yeah, he's also a fellow Canadian. He doesn't like the 49 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:08.919 teams I like, but we both went down almost. 50 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.680 I almost wore my Philadelphia Eagles today just for you. 51 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.000 And just to show you how generous, how generous my 52 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:22.879 orthodoxy is to actually allow a true Eagles fan on 53 00:03:22.919 --> 00:03:28.360 this podcast. I have no limits, no boundaries. So there 54 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:29.400 you go, get it. 55 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:31.960 Yeah, it's taken about three years to build trust to 56 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:34.159 this point. I think that's what Eli. 57 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:37.599 I know exactly well. One of the I think in 58 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.400 my alumni groups, alumni groups are those guys who've gone 59 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.159 through the Finding Traction course and after fifty two weeks 60 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.719 and apparently if they're not sick of hearing the sound 61 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.360 of my voice, we bring those guys together. We have 62 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.280 a shared vocabulary with the material. One of the cool 63 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:57.000 things in the in the groups, I think I have 64 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:01.360 three or four therapists like yourself, Caleb, who have made 65 00:04:01.960 --> 00:04:06.879 a real journey out of leveraging their own story to 66 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:13.319 help other men towards freedom, especially around the area of unmanageable, 67 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:16.680 you know, or problematic poorn news. So I'd love to 68 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.360 hear a little bit of your story in terms of 69 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:22.680 before we get into Peter Pan that has partly informed 70 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.319 your journey and also kind of why it's made you 71 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:27.959 so effective in helping other men. 72 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:28.480 Yeah. 73 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.279 Absolutely, I'll go

all the way back to the beginning. 74 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:33.120 I'll chalk about a whole bunch of stuff in the middle, 75 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:36.720 and then we'll catch up to present day. So, going 76 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.319 all the way back to the beginning, I am a 77 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:43.720 middle child, and after I was born, my mom had 78 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:49.800 postpartum depression and my family was going through a hard time. 79 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:52.480 I had one older sister at the time, and then 80 00:04:52.639 --> 00:04:55.600 after me, I had a younger brother born with a 81 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:57.600 lot of a lot of needs, a lot of health 82 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:01.800 concerns as a co and developmental and so a lot 83 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:06.399 of my parents' attention went rightly so towards my younger brother. 84 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.480 And in that, you know, one of the lessons that 85 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:14.160 I internalized is that maybe I couldn't count on my 86 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.240 parents to meet all my needs or my emotional needs. 87 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:19.959 Obviously not something that I would have said to myself 88 00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:24.040 as a six year old or anything, but just it's it's. 89 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:24.680 Internalized, right. 90 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:27.600 You kind of look back as you read your story, 91 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.480 and you know, as a therapist, I believe in therapy, 92 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:32.079 and so I've gone to a lot of it myself, 93 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:35.439 and I can say with confidence, you know, my parents 94 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.120 were were very wonderful, so loving and caring. I have 95 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:41.439 many fond memories of my childhood, lots of fun with 96 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.160 my dad, nurture from my mom. 97 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.879 But like I said, one of the things. 98 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:47.680 I struggled to believe was like, yeah, they could meet 99 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:52.879 my emotional needs, they could be there for me, because yeah, 100 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.079 they had they had other things to occupy their attention. 101 00:05:55.839 --> 00:06:02.120 And you know, I didn't feel like I could go 102 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:02.560 to them. 103 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:04.759 And so those feelings that I had, you know, that 104 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.160 would come up naturally as a kid, like you feel embarrassed. 105 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:09.759 What do you do when you feel embarrassed? What do 106 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:10.720 you do when you feel. 107 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:14.879 Sad or angry or lonely or rejected? And I became 108 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:17.920 a very social kid, So I made friends with anyone 109 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:21.079 who gave me the time of day. I actually once 110 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:22.959 convinced a kid I had just met on the McDonald's 111 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:24.160 playground that we were best friends. 112 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:25.839 I told him about Jesus the whole bit. 113 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:28.040 Wow. 114 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:31.000 Yeah, I was a networker right from the right from 115 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:34.360 a young age. And I was actually pretty good with 116 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:37.800 girls too. Looking back, when I was six years old, 117 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:40.240 a girl in my class give over for a visit 118 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.519 with her family, family friends, and the two of us 119 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:45.439 were playing in my room and next thing I know, 120 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:46.079 she kissed me. 121 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:46.839 I kiss her. 122 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.759 And you know, at six years old, already I had 123 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:54.240 that experience. And I don't know where we got, you know, 124 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.560 the idea like it was, it was pretty pretty intense, 125 00:06:57.600 --> 00:06:59.639 but I remember it made me feel incredible, like I 126 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:06.480 felt wanted, I felt desired, you know. And I'm fast 127 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:10.680 forwarding to I'm nine years old now, and like I 128 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:12.160 have all the confidence in the world. 129 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:13.360 I'm a social kid. 130 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:16.120 But my family we move from a small community to 131 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:20.160 a big city, and I vividly remember my first day 132 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.759 on that middle school playground. I'm in a new place, 133 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.879 but I'm a social butterfly. I got this. So I 134 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.839 go up to a kid on the playground asking to play, 135 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:31.439 and he looks down at my shoes. Of all things, 136 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.480 looks down at my shoes and says, are those sketchers? 137 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:35.680 I was like, yeah, you like him. 138 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:40.480 He's like huh, sketchers more like suckers and he runs away, 139 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:43.480 super random, right, But it's stuck in my memory, and 140 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.279 I have lots of other memories of you know, getting 141 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:47.160 bullied a little bit or made fun of for this 142 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.639 or for that, as middle school boys do, but flooded 143 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.480 with just feelings of shame and I'm not good enough 144 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:55.639 and I'm rejected. And who do I go to with 145 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.120 those emotions, because, like I said, it's not like at 146 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:01.680 that point, it wasn't my parents. And so I try 147 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.560 the girls, right, I go to the girls. Turns out 148 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.720 middle school girls much meaner than six year

old girls, 149 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:11.480 much less willing to go for a kiss. Okay, And 150 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:14.439 so middle school was really hard for me, that is 151 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.879 nuttil one of my classmates introduced me to porn. 152 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:19.839 Right then girls became easy. 153 00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:23.839 Then girls became and that you nailed it, Verne. That's 154 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:26.040 actually that's what I had written down. If there was 155 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:29.240 a thought bubble above my head when I first saw porn, 156 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.159 it would be she can't reject me, you know, she 157 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.000 can't say no. These girls are easy, right, it feels 158 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:39.399 like they want me right, Well. 159 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.039 I so stop here. That's funny because because you had 160 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:45.879 one of the things I talk about is you were 161 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.559 created with such this need. I was between older and 162 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.000 a needy younger sister, a needy older brother, same idea. 163 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.480 That velcrow that was all around me, all of the 164 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.639 fuzzy velcrow was just ready for the hooks, right, They 165 00:09:01.720 --> 00:09:05.600 just set me up susceptibility. Why I was so vulnerable? 166 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.279 Why I it was like, oh, that makes me feel good. 167 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:13.000 And you're right, we don't have the language for this. 168 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:17.200 When we're six, seven, eight nine, we just go This 169 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:21.519 just floods us with warm feelings, you know. All of 170 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:27.200 those those negative feelings, loneliness or rejection, they just flutter away, right. 171 00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:30.600 They just flutter away. Yeah, all my problems float away. 172 00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:33.919 It's like fairy dust, right, like it just it was. 173 00:09:34.120 --> 00:09:38.559 It felt so magical, and so anytime the life didn't 174 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:42.240 feel magical, right that I'm having an uncomfortable experience or 175 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:45.679 a painful emotion like I'm lonely, well, Porn's there, like 176 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:49.879 I'm sad. Porn's there, shamed, porn, angry, porn, stressed. 177 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:50.720 You know, it's funny. 178 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:53.840 I went to a Christian school all my life. I 179 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:58.360 went to Christian schools, and we were required to memorize scripture, okay, 180 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.519 and all throughout middlechool, in high school. My strategy for 181 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:04.960 memorizing scripture right before I did it, I would look 182 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:09.399 at porn because it would clear my mind before that. 183 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:14.080 That is

a fascinating memory hook. I've never heard that before. 184 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.759 I don't recommend that at home. People just want to 185 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:18.639 throw that out there. 186 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.519 No, no, mean either, because it became I was dependent 187 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:26.840 on it for mental clarity, you know, like I have 188 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.360 to study for a test. A little bit of masturbation, 189 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:30.960 a little bit of porn, Now my mind will be 190 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:32.679 clear and I can focus. 191 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:36.480 Yeah, I mean that followed me into adulthood too. 192 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:41.639 What a tool regarding learning to do life. You know. 193 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:46.600 This was a be all and all, catch all, cure 194 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:50.879 all you know system. It's like those old westerns where 195 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:55.120 the guy comes into town with these elixirs of you know, 196 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.080 drink this and will cure all of your blames and 197 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:02.600 your rheumatism and your or whatever all those things mean, right, yes, 198 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:06.159 this will be that solution, right. 199 00:11:06.519 --> 00:11:06.799 Yeah. 200 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.480 It was my magic potion and my uh yeah yeah, 201 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.399 the magic plant, like smoke this and all your troubles 202 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:17.039 go away, right, Akuna matata. It was it was I literally. 203 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:19.840 I would compare you know, some of my friends in 204 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.919 middle school to like Timon and Pumba. It was like, 205 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:25.360 just watch this and all your troubles will just float away. 206 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:27.159 Not that they use those words, but that was the 207 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.600 message that I got, Like Akuna Matata, no worries, just 208 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:32.799 look upon and it'll make you feel great. 209 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:37.320 So how then, did you did you shift you into 210 00:11:38.120 --> 00:11:41.840 how you know, either by hook or by crook, you know, 211 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:47.519 choosing to pursue a healing journey in this area. Obviously 212 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:50.720 there must have been some awareness that began to settle 213 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:55.440 in and then hard work of beginning to move away 214 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:57.399 from it. How to just tell us a little bit 215 00:11:57.399 --> 00:11:59.879 about that, because you know, the listeners are many of 216 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:02.399 them there in the same place, and they're going, okay, well, 217 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.039 how does this journey play out for me? And you know, 218 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:07.279 moving towards healing? 219 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.440 Well, for me, I got married and I became a 220 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.480 youth pastor. Oh both things that suddenly clashed with my 221 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.080 porn no. 222 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:21.879 No, yeah, okay, yeah, so that would mess with the 223 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:23.480 fang schway a little bit, right. 224 00:12:23.840 --> 00:12:24.840 That would mess with it. 225 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:26.879 Yeah, all of a sudden, I mean it was either 226 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:30.200 I go underground with this, yeah, or I face it, 227 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:35.000 and I've been my whole life such an honest. One 228 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.559 memory that my family has rehearsed time and time again 229 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:40.320 was my my sister and I when we were young. 230 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:41.600 We were hanging out of the friends place and they 231 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:43.759 had such cool toys. They're the first one that ever 232 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:47.399 had transformers. Oh and my yep, my my sister maybe 233 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.559 stole a Barbie or something, and I stole a transformer, 234 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.399 put it and we put it in our pockets and 235 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.320 we went to the door. We leave the friend's house, 236 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.759 and my parents said, hey, Caleb, you ready to go? 237 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:58.279 My sister ready to go? 238 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:07.559 And I said, yeah, certainly, nothing in our pockets. Yeah. 239 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:09.480 So I've never been good at keeping a secret. So 240 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.679 it came out even before I got married to my wife, 241 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:15.679 and very similarly to my church when I became a 242 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.000 youth pastor there as well, I was like, I have 243 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:21.399 to come clean. I can't live with this dishonesty. But 244 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:23.960 I also don't know how to fix the problem, like 245 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:25.159 I didn't have tools. 246 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.360 And so in. 247 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.440 Twenty sixteen, my church did the Conqueror series by Pure Desire, 248 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.240 and that was the beginning of my recovery journey. Ten 249 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:36.679 years ago, after I did the conquer, I did the 250 00:13:36.679 --> 00:13:43.600 Seven Pillars, and you know various other I went to counseling. 251 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:50.240 I eventually found Matt Dobbshoots and started one of his groups, 252 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.639 and then I found you and have been doing your groups. 253 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:55.360 I think it's two and a half years now or 254 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:57.840 I did the Finding traction and then now two years 255 00:13:57.840 --> 00:13:58.320 of alumni. 256 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.080 Yeah, it's been great and the insights you bring and 257 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.080 one of the one of the things

that I introduced 258 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:11.480 on a recent podcast. I also just got interviewed with 259 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.840 Jonathan Darty from pure Sex Radio. We're going to do this. 260 00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:18.879 We did the same topic, and it's this idea in 261 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.120 our journey of freedom, we hit periods of plateaus, but 262 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.720 then at some point, in some way, we can have 263 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:34.440 tipping points, tipping points where some kind of experience or 264 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:42.320 AHA moment can meet us and actually turbocharge I know, 265 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:47.399 I'm my metaphors are jumping all around here. Aha moment 266 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:52.320 that kind of turbocharges our recovery into maybe a new 267 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:57.200 level of freedom. And so that's kind of the idea. 268 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.159 And in one of our recent alumni groups, you you 269 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.120 shared a bit of an Aha moment you had as 270 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.039 you were thinking about your recovery, thinking about some of 271 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:10.840 the challenges you face, and as you shared it, I thought, ah, 272 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.639 that is a great example of a tipping point, and 273 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:17.840 it had to do with this mythical figure Peter Pan. 274 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:20.720 So I don't know what we're gonna call this this, 275 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.639 you know, Peter Pan porn user or Peter Pan pursuer 276 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:26.639 of porn or all sorts of alliteration. 277 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.960 But how many piece can you put in there yet exactly? 278 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.000 But having said that, why don't you go ahead and 279 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.960 share your your thoughts around the Disney character Peter Pan. 280 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:40.559 And actually, which may sound okay, this sounds a little goofy, Caleb, 281 00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:43.320 but it's actually it really impacted you. So I'd love 282 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:44.559 you to share it with the Losteners. 283 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.399 M h. Yeah, Yeah, I would say that kind of 284 00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:51.879 the the root of the tree, that kind of where 285 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:55.840 that branch came from would be the book that we 286 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.240 were going through in our in our alumni group, The 287 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.919 Broken Boy to Mend and many book. And there's just 288 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.279 just stuff that was stirring up in my heart about 289 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:10.559 my journey, and yeah, this idea of Peter Pan kind 290 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.759 of came to mind. And so yeah, you know, one 291 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:18.759 of the lies that I think I've been believing for 292 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:22.159 a while, is that like this just because it's been 293 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:25.000 with me since boy Head, it will just always be 294 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.960 with this is just you know, I've I've gotten lit 295 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:31.159 on it, you know, I only you know, kind of 296 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.639 slip up every six months or so. But maybe I 297 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:36.639 just need to you know, kind of settle here and 298 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.159 not you know, think that I could actually be completely 299 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:44.279 free of this. But in reading this book and unearthing 300 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.480 some of this stuff from childhood, I realized that, like, 301 00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:51.159 there's something about growing up, if you know, I want 302 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:51.960 to grow up before. 303 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:52.279 I grow old. 304 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.679 I can't remember who said that, but I really started 305 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:56.519 to resonate with that idea. I want to grow up 306 00:16:56.559 --> 00:17:00.240 before I grow old and moren is like representative of 307 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:05.359 keeping me in boyhood. And so I love stories. I 308 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.359 love stories of all kind, especially like you know, fantasy 309 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:12.000 and mythology, and so as I was thinking about an example, 310 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:17.279 I thought Peter Pan, right, and how he refuses to 311 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.720 grow up, and I saw, you know, a part of 312 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.400 myself in that, like inside of me is this Peter Pan, 313 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.359 the porn user kind of piece of me that just 314 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.079 like refuses No, I want to live in never Land. 315 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.960 I don't want to accept you know, limits and responsibility 316 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.119 and you know the other things that come with growing up. 317 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.880 I want to avoid those things and chase after perpetual excitement. 318 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:43.519 And yeah, but then obviously there's another part of me 319 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.440 that's like no, like we want the real world, we 320 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.960 want real love. We don't want this fantasy any any longer, 321 00:17:50.039 --> 00:17:52.200 Like Neverland is lonely. We just got the Lost Boys 322 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.000 for company, and here and the Mermaids, right the you 323 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.160 know kind of those siren figures that they look beautiful 324 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.200 and then you get a close and they just slip 325 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:03.839 away Like that was what like porn has always felt 326 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.400 like to me, like, you know, almost they're so beautiful, 327 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:09.319 like and as I approach, it's like, whoa, this is 328 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:11.839 what all and

they're gone, like and they don't care 329 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:13.279 about me and they don't actually want me. 330 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:15.319 That that was just an illusion. 331 00:18:17.079 --> 00:18:20.680 And so yeah, and so I started doing research more 332 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.680 on like the story of Peter Pan and yeah, one 333 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.720 of the things that came up was like, you know, 334 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.519 Peter flies using happy thoughts and uh, you know, you 335 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.000 just gotta think happy thoughts, right, And. 336 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.680 That was all since I've I've seen that. So this 337 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.720 is a good a good review for me. Happy thoughts, 338 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.039 got it? 339 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.319 Okay, happy thoughts? Yeah? 340 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:45.000 This this whatever you want to label it, right, the 341 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.640 dopamine rush, that temporary escape from reality. That's so much 342 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.240 of what porn has been for me ever since I 343 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.359 was a boy. Like, you know, if life is too hard, 344 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:57.640 just happy thoughts, just float away, you know, Kuna matata again. 345 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:04.039 Happy thoughts are are are something which basically deny reality. 346 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.440 They deny reality. 347 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.559 They they put us in an alternate universe. Right, I 348 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.559 just think happy thoughts. I just those kind of things. 349 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:15.039 That's that's where you're going. 350 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.720 With that, right, Yes, yeah, exactly. 351 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.359 I love that phrasing deny reality, because it really is 352 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:26.000 that that's I can escape. I don't have to face it. 353 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.680 I can just float away from it. I can deny 354 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:29.720 that it's that it's there. 355 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.279 Yeah. And one of the things we're denying is the 356 00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.880 progressive effects that porn is having on us, Right, we 357 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:39.920 deny all of that. This isn't changing me, this isn't 358 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:44.160 hurting me. This is just making me feel good. Deny, deny, deny, right, 359 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:48.000 deny just thinking happy thoughts, just thinking exciting thoughts. 360 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.839 Yeah. Yeah, Meanwhile, you're missing out on the fullness of reality, right, 361 00:19:55.920 --> 00:20:01.680 and the relationships that could be deep and meaningful. And 362 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.680 you know, pet Peter starts to in the story like 363 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:09.599 he he begins to forget, He forgets his commitments, he 364 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:14.039 forgets the people he loves. He and I've I've found 365 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:16.640 that in my life with you know, with with my 366 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:19.920 own memory, you know, fading on things and being like this, 367 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.599 like this is the cost, Caleb, Like this is the cost. 368 00:20:22.359 --> 00:20:23.519 Of of porn. 369 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.640 It robs you of your memories in the real world 370 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.480 and your real experiences. And I'm a you know, I'm 371 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:35.920 I'm proudly a type seven personality. Like I I love fun, 372 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:39.079 I love living in the moment and all those types 373 00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:43.799 of things. 374 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:45.680 You're going, what is he talking about? 375 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:52.680 That's okay, yeah, But you know, in in kind of 376 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.759 researching what is a healthy integrated you know, type seven, 377 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.519 it's actually somebody who can sit in the present and 378 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:01.240 and like. 379 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:04.119 The real presence, you know, not floating away with a 380 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:08.079 happy thought or with the next rush of excitement or 381 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:12.519 of fantasy, but just enjoying all of reality of becoming 382 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.599 truly childlike. So this is one of the things that 383 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:17.759 I've I've really had to distinguish in my mind because 384 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:20.519 I don't want to lose my childlikeness right as a 385 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:23.200 as a Christian. I mean that Jesus, you know that 386 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.680 that you know you need to be childlike in order 387 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:29.279 to receive the kingdom. So I want to be childlike, 388 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:30.759 but I don't want to be childish. 389 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:36.480 Oh that is good, snap. That is a great distinction between. 390 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:40.519 Yea and the difference for me. So being childish means, 391 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:48.480 you know, escapism, avoidance, pouting, entitlement, irresponsibility, selfishness, those types 392 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.519 of things. But being childlike it's not just you know, 393 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:54.960 it's not just that I want to be a more responsible, dedicated, 394 00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:57.759 committed husband and father. I do want to be those things, 395 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.960 but I also want to be childlike. I want to 396 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:08.160 full of imagination and wonder, playfulness and curiosity and yeah 397 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:10.680 and mutual trust and those type of things. 398 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.559 And so as I've thought about this. 399 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.680 You know, I don't just want to I don't just 400 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:18.079 want to not be Peter Pan. I also want

to 401 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:19.880 be I want to be like christ. 402 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:20.640 I want to be. 403 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:25.680 Let's say, like Sam Wise Gamgee right in the Lord 404 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.880 of the Rings. Ye, somebody who who is loyal and 405 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.880 dedicated but also can be playful and loves his garden 406 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:38.640 and you know, is yeah, unashamed about just taking life 407 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:43.359 as it comes, but is also committed and loyal and dependable. 408 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.799 Another person that our character that I really love is 409 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:51.000 Bandit Healer from The Bluey Show, Australian cartoon. 410 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.720 Okay, my kids are older, I missed that. But for 411 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:56.680 those of you who are at tracking, why is that? 412 00:22:57.759 --> 00:22:58.160 Why is that? 413 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.519 So? It's this family of Dogs cartoon show. It's very 414 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:07.200 sweet and the parents, but especially the dad. It's like, 415 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:10.759 you know, it wouldn't be an overstatement to say that 416 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.200 he's a role model for me, because in one moment 417 00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:15.680 he can be building a you know, a blanket fort 418 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.480 with the kids and the next be having a meaningful 419 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.400 conversation about emotions and sadness with one of his kids. 420 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.799 And like, that's the kind of dad that I want 421 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:26.200 to be. That I'm emotionally attuned with my kids. You know, 422 00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:29.119 I can lay aside my own interests to focus on them, 423 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:32.559 and I can also create fun memories and we can 424 00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:38.559 play together, and yeah, both things can can be harmoniously true. 425 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.079 Well it's funny, you know, Caleb, is we're talking. I 426 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:44.759 think one of the concepts that I this idea of 427 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.920 growing old, but you know, before growing up, before we 428 00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.279 grow old. One of the biggest things that I saw 429 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:57.240 happened with my growing up years, especially into middle school 430 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:01.680 and high school, was I swear that porn simply pushed 431 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.839 put it, you know, the push the play pause button 432 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.640 on all devices these days, you know, And I feel 433 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.519 like porn simply put my life, my maturation on pause. 434 00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:15.640 And I don't think it's a surprise. When my wife 435 00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:20.960 asked me to remember things from high school, remember things 436 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.200 from late later elementary school, I swear, you know, those 437 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:30.160 were the last years. I can remember virtually nothing of 438 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:35.160 ten years of my life. And I'm going, like, where 439 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:41.440 was I what happened? And it's like scary scary stuff, 440 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.559 you know, early on set dementia, you know, TED to fifty, 441 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.920 between TED and twenty, like come on. And I really 442 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.519 do think that that porn and that escape thing you're 443 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:58.000 talking about, that flying away, that not dealing, not being present, 444 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.480 played a part of that. Yeah. 445 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.920 Yeah, I one hundred percent resonate with ever and I 446 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.200 have the same thing. I have lost years, you know, 447 00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.920 when I was lost years, when I was a lost boy, 448 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:13.519 just escaping reality, like just you know, floating away, floating, 449 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.359 you know, not wanting to face the hard stuff of 450 00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.440 life and then just using porn as this magic carpet 451 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.160 to just float away. But then forgetting it, you know, 452 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:27.240 forgetting reality. And once you start to, yeah, you get older, 453 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:29.440 it's like, oh my gosh, my memories are so valuable, 454 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.480 Like I want to be present and I also want 455 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:33.880 to remember when I was present. 456 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:38.200 Right, So, so as you moved into serious recovery and 457 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:45.960 pushed play on your recovery, what did it change as 458 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:50.640 you what changed as you move from being childish towards 459 00:25:50.680 --> 00:25:54.839 being childlike in the way you approach life, in the 460 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:58.799 way you approach relationships? Like how did this start? Looking? 461 00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:01.079 And I know it's one step forward, two steps back, 462 00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:03.839 three steps forward. I know this is not a straight line. 463 00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:06.599 But as you look back at your journey now, you know, 464 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.680 what do you see different? How do you see yourself 465 00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:14.519 being less like Peter Pan and more like Sam Ganji 466 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.440 or or one of these guys. 467 00:26:16.920 --> 00:26:22.880 Yeah, you know. Ironically, I would say COVID helped a lot. 468 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.599 That was a really big turning point because I could 469 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:31.119 no longer throw myself into my work. You know, before that, 470 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:32.680 I was working six days a week as a youth 471 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.839 pastor

you know, five five evening commitments of different ministry things, right. 472 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.440 You know, my kids were still very young at that point, 473 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.200 and so I've kind of justified it of like, ah, 474 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.200 they won't really miss me anyways. Like, but then COVID 475 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.720 hit and it was not only cam I now I'm 476 00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.240 I'm home. I also have I have more time for 477 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.160 my wife, for my kids, and also for hobbies. One 478 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.079 of the podcasts from Matt dob Shoots that consistently I've 479 00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.960 re listened to more than any other one is recapturing 480 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:09.839 your creative. 481 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.680 Interests and COVID. COVID was a time to do that. 482 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.880 You know. I began to play with my kids more. 483 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:23.119 We did this thirty day Lego challenge in the middle 484 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:26.440 of COVID when everything was shut down. Just fell in 485 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.759 love with building lego with them, began this Harry Potter 486 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.200 lego collection that I actually tied. I actually tied to 487 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:36.519 my recovery. Obviously, my kids don't know this and I 488 00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:38.279 didn't know it. One day they'll know it. 489 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:40.359 Yeah. 490 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:45.279 It was like at first it was for every you know, 491 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:49.079 it was like the thirty days of recovery. I would 492 00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:51.359 get a small set, or I could do ninety days 493 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:55.839 and get a big set kind of thing. So yeah, 494 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.440 it was kind of attached to my sobriety that I 495 00:27:57.480 --> 00:28:01.000 would buy these Lego sets with the money as a 496 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.440 reward for you know, something I would never have spent 497 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.519 money on otherwise. But it was just the perfect timing, 498 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:09.720 and it was this chance to get in touch with 499 00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:12.279 my inner child and a playfulness aspect, but also it 500 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:15.160 was for something bigger. It's this legacy, it's this thing 501 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.799 to do with my kids. And so eventually it became 502 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.799 instead of this this for this many days porn free 503 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.880 you get a Lego set, it was for every recovery 504 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.160 action that I do every day, that's just one dollar 505 00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.519 in the Lego piggybank kind of a thing. 506 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:31.960 Love it. 507 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.960 Yeah, yeah, move on to that. 508 00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:39.079 And what that says

to me is you have been 509 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:44.599 slowly but surely stepping into responsibility, something that Peter Pan 510 00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:45.880 studiously avoided. 511 00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.200 Say, Like, another thing that that COVID brought out for 512 00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.839 me was this I was able to pursue the dream 513 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:54.440 of becoming a counselor, right, which yeah, I mean I 514 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:56.440 shouldn't say that it was COVID that did that, but 515 00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.680 it gave me the space to be like, what, like, yeah, 516 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.680 how do I want the next thirty years of my 517 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:03.160 life to go? 518 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:04.880 You know? 519 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.240 At age thirty is when I started my counseling degree 520 00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:10.640 and I was like, Okay, let's let's pursue this dream. 521 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.880 And I that was very much like kind of like 522 00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:14.960 it's it's a risk, but it was also like a 523 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.839 taking a responsibility thing, right I Like, I don't think 524 00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:22.200 this youth pastor thing is going to last, right, Like, 525 00:29:22.440 --> 00:29:24.759 I just it's unsustainable, especially with five kids and wanting 526 00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:25.519 to be present to them. 527 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.079 You know. Yeah, let me just say I think I 528 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.640 think one of the things it enabled you to do 529 00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.920 is start looking towards the future and asking longer term questions. 530 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.279 You weren't just floating and letting life come to you. Well, 531 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:45.079 whatever plays out plays out. When you were in COVID 532 00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:48.480 and you said, you know what, I don't think this 533 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:53.240 is a long term stable thing for me to do. 534 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:55.680 I don't see much. But a lot of guys go, well, 535 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:58.960 it's just too much work, too much, too much work 536 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.079 to take take the steps towards being a therapist, being 537 00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.039 a counselor, which you did, which is another part of 538 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:10.720 what stepping up and taking responsibility for your family, your future, 539 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:17.119 your career. Right, that's a huge step. Yeah, responsibility, right, 540 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:21.119 growing up some of those areas and so yeah, that 541 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:24.519 is exciting to hear. But I really love the fact 542 00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.799 that you did a great example of saying we don't 543 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.799 lose that joy for life. We don't lose that being 544 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:34.000 able to be childlike, having a twinkle in our eye, 545 00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.559 you know, being able to crack a joke, being able 546 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:43.440 to really enjoy life, enjoy good friendships, you know those 547 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:47.160 kind of things. Right. That's cool, and you've been a 548 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.720 great example in our alumni group. You have a group 549 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:52.079 of friends you hang out with, you have a number 550 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.400 of self care things beyond Lego that are part of it. 551 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:01.279 So well, if any of you need a great therapist, 552 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:06.200 especially in Canada, hit me up and I'll pass somebody's 553 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:10.920 certain somebody's name on. But Caleb, it's been great having 554 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:16.920 you on. Here's towards continuing to be childlike and not childish. 555 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.039 So yeah, thanks for coming on again. It was great 556 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:20.440 to have you. 557 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:22.440 Absolutely thank you for having me. 558 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:22.720 Barn