התמלול המלא של From Homelessness to Alternative Education Pioneer | Nicola Hepburn | EAW 60

that connection with the horse. 00:03:45.371 --> 00:03:47.221 Rupert Isaacson: Who, who was organizing that course? 00:03:47.251 --> 00:03:48.301 And what did they teach you? 00:03:48.821 --> 00:03:52.051 Nicola Hepburn: Well, the course was originally organized by an 00:03:52.061 --> 00:03:55.601 organization which no longer exists called Etain, and it was- 00:03:55.761 --> 00:03:56.431 Rupert Isaacson: Called what, sorry? 00:03:56.901 --> 00:03:58.321 Nicola Hepburn: Etain Equestrian it was called. 00:03:58.321 --> 00:03:59.621 I d- I don't think they exist anymore. 00:03:59.681 --> 00:03:59.691 Etain? 00:04:00.981 --> 00:04:01.531 Etain, yeah. 00:04:01.531 --> 00:04:01.541 Etain. 00:04:01.571 --> 00:04:02.731 Rupert Isaacson: E-A-I-N. 00:04:03.041 --> 00:04:03.101 Nicola Hepburn: Etain. 00:04:03.101 --> 00:04:03.861 Etain. 00:04:03.861 --> 00:04:05.381 It was a lady named Roz. 00:04:05.431 --> 00:04:10.291 And the the initial course was going to be run by one trainer, and then 00:04:10.481 --> 00:04:13.821 that person dropped out, and they found a new trainer who was Sierra 00:04:13.821 --> 00:04:20.127 Ow- Owall, who worked quite closely with Barbara Rector In the, in the US. 00:04:20.127 --> 00:04:25.187 And Barbara Rector was who ran EFMA as it was then in America, which was 00:04:25.437 --> 00:04:30.537 the kind of mental health part of NARA, which was their version of RDA. 00:04:30.747 --> 00:04:32.507 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, which is now PATH, right? 00:04:32.647 --> 00:04:33.237 PATH International. 00:04:33.237 --> 00:04:33.257 Yeah, 00:04:33.437 --> 00:04:33.607 Nicola Hepburn: yeah. 00:04:34.027 --> 00:04:34.447 Right. 00:04:34.507 --> 00:04:38.407 So but back then they had this separate organization and Barbara Rector was 00:04:38.407 --> 00:04:42.297 one of the kind of pioneers, and I think America were ahead of us then. 00:04:42.367 --> 00:04:43.197 Mm-hmm. 00:04:43.197 --> 00:04:46.007 There's a lot more of the equine facilitated learning and the 00:04:46.007 --> 00:04:49.797 different approaches happening in America than there was in the UK. 00:04:49.797 --> 00:04:54.037 I think it, we had RDA but there wasn't a lot else going on here. 00:04:54.037 --> 00:04:58.257 And yeah, so this lady called Sierra came over and she spent a week with 00:04:58.257 --> 00:05:01.887 us and we were at the beautiful Unicorn Trust in Stow-on-the-Wold. 00:05:01.887 --> 00:05:02.947 It's an amazing venue. 00:05:03.727 --> 00:05:09.817 And it was just a really eye-opening and amazing experience, amazing people. 00:05:09.867 --> 00:05:12.877 And we just learnt kind of the very basics, the foundations of 00:05:12.877 --> 00:05:15.587 equine facilitated learning really. 00:05:15.637 --> 00:05:18.477 But it was, you know, like I say, it was a light bulb moment for me. 00:05:18.517 --> 00:05:20.657 It was just, yeah, this is exactly what I want to do. 00:05:20.657 --> 00:05:25.787 So I started then volunteering with RDA so I could get some experience 00:05:25.787 --> 00:05:29.767 working with people, because prior to this I'd spent a lot of time working 00:05:29.767 --> 00:05:34.947 with horses as a child, but I hadn't really spent much time working with 00:05:35.007 --> 00:05:36.677 disabled or disadvantaged people. 00:05:37.137 --> 00:05:39.717 So I wanted to learn more about that. 00:05:39.717 --> 00:05:41.367 So I did go and volunteer at RDA, and then I managed to get a job at 00:05:43.687 --> 00:05:50.417 a charity that worked around inclusion and they set up a project, an equine, 00:05:50.457 --> 00:05:53.497 one of the first equine facilitated learning projects in the UK. 00:05:54.067 --> 00:05:57.107 And I was the original project manager on that project. 00:05:57.677 --> 00:06:01.447 But I quickly found that I wanted to do my own thing, and 00:06:01.447 --> 00:06:03.147 I really wanted to set up… 00:06:03.817 --> 00:06:05.307 I had a very, you know, my own thing. 00:06:05.307 --> 00:06:09.007 I had a very clear idea about creating an organization. 00:06:09.257 --> 00:06:10.337 Rupert Isaacson: What was that idea? 00:06:10.337 --> 00:06:13.717 What was that own thing that you clearly knew you wanted to do? 00:06:14.227 --> 00:06:20.017 Nicola Hepburn: I think it was very much influenced by my childhood, where 00:06:20.027 --> 00:06:24.487 I'd, the, the stables had been a safe space for me, and I feel, I felt like 00:06:24.487 --> 00:06:29.007 I wanted to recreate that environment that I'd had as a child where I'd been 00:06:29.007 --> 00:06:32.737 able to learn, where I'd felt safe, where I'd been able to be included. 00:06:32.787 --> 00:06:36.647 And you know, I just, I think it was trying to recreate a 00:06:36.647 --> 00:06:38.177 feeling, if that makes more sense. 00:06:38.357 --> 00:06:38.797 Rupert Isaacson: It does. 00:06:38.927 --> 00:06:45.581 Were you, so- Y- y- we, w- w- was the vision safe space and inclusion? 00:06:45.711 --> 00:06:48.751 Was that … W- was it, was it those two things? 00:06:49.241 --> 00:06:50.051 Nicola Hepburn: I think initially, yeah. 00:06:50.061 --> 00:06:50.241 Was 00:06:50.391 --> 00:06:50.541 Rupert Isaacson: there more? 00:06:51.171 --> 00:06:54.191 Nicola Hepburn: I think at that point I, I didn't, you know, I 00:06:54.191 --> 00:06:57.681 didn't know as much, I wasn't as experienced as I am now, obviously. 00:06:57.681 --> 00:06:59.031 So I think it was, you know- 00:06:59.091 --> 00:06:59.361 Rupert Isaacson: Mm 00:07:00.141 --> 00:07:00.361 … Nicola Hepburn: kind 00:07:00.361 --> 00:07:02.141 Rupert Isaacson: of- 'Cause I'd say you do a whole lot more than that now. 00:07:02.141 --> 00:07:04.401 And I'd say that you, you do create those safe spaces. 00:07:04.661 --> 00:07:05.681 You do create inclusion. 00:07:05.681 --> 00:07:09.301 But I know about your work, and I know it's much, much more 00:07:09.331 --> 00:07:10.471 three-dimensional than that. 00:07:10.751 --> 00:07:11.991 But these things evolve, don't they? 00:07:12.211 -->

00:07:17.671 So w- w- was that the original sort of simple vision, and then 00:07:17.671 --> 00:07:18.521 everything from there evolved? 00:07:18.521 --> 00:07:18.651 Yeah, 00:07:19.551 --> 00:07:21.841 Nicola Hepburn: I think, think the very simple vision was that I wanted to 00:07:21.841 --> 00:07:25.511 provide sessions to local people, and at this point I was actually working 00:07:25.511 --> 00:07:27.161 with adults as well as children. 00:07:27.571 --> 00:07:30.751 So when I first started it was more adults with learning 00:07:30.751 --> 00:07:32.251 difficulties that I was working with. 00:07:32.251 --> 00:07:36.041 And I set up a community project running out of a livery yard where I 00:07:36.041 --> 00:07:40.271 kept my horses, and I had I used to hire the indoor arena, and we'd ha- 00:07:40.441 --> 00:07:43.291 we'd have local people come in and I'd just spend an hour with them, 00:07:43.291 --> 00:07:47.431 and we'd do obstacle courses and, you know, spend time grooming the horses. 00:07:47.431 --> 00:07:51.551 And I guess, you know, sensory work, but in a different way to, 00:07:51.571 --> 00:07:52.781 to how Horse Boy developed it. 00:07:53.481 --> 00:07:57.541 And very much, very basic work with the horses, just that interaction, that 00:07:57.541 --> 00:07:59.011 connection with the horse on the ground. 00:07:59.061 --> 00:07:59.581 And that was it. 00:08:00.151 --> 00:08:00.161 Mm. 00:08:00.371 --> 00:08:03.271 And I was working, you know, like I say, hiring an indoor arena. 00:08:03.271 --> 00:08:04.811 I had two horses. 00:08:05.391 --> 00:08:09.401 And I was just, you know, just set up a small community project. 00:08:10.091 --> 00:08:10.101 A- 00:08:11.021 --> 00:08:11.961 Rupert Isaacson: and what did you see? 00:08:11.961 --> 00:08:12.511 What did you do? 00:08:12.551 --> 00:08:15.461 What did you achieve in the, that sort of early pilot project? 00:08:16.031 --> 00:08:17.931 Nicola Hepburn: Well, with the early pilot project it was very much a 00:08:17.931 --> 00:08:23.621 way of me finding my way of how I wanted to work with people, w- 00:08:23.621 --> 00:08:27.431 working out what worked well, what people enjoyed, how the sessions ran. 00:08:27.771 --> 00:08:28.511 Mm-hmm. 00:08:28.571 --> 00:08:33.121 You know, so it was very much a kind of test project I'd say to see, you 00:08:33.781 --> 00:08:35.261 Rupert Isaacson: know- Yeah, what did you offer them, and, and 00:08:35.261 --> 00:08:36.391 what, what were the takeaways? 00:08:36.431 --> 00:08:37.131 What did you observe? 00:08:37.831 --> 00:08:39.781 Nicola Hepburn: Well, at that point, you know, we were working with adults, 00:08:39.781 --> 00:08:43.001 and what we found was that they really enjoyed working with the horses. 00:08:43.001 --> 00:08:45.031 They, they found it's a lot of fun. 00:08:45.361 --> 00:08:50.581 We found that people were engaging in the activities and it was really holding 00:08:50.581 --> 00:08:54.801 people's attention, and they were finding

just being with the horse really relaxing, 00:08:54.801 --> 00:08:56.291 and they were able to really focus. 00:08:56.311 --> 00:09:00.571 And so I think that was my initial kind of experience with engagement. 00:09:00.611 --> 00:09:03.851 Because now obviously when we're talking about education, we talk 00:09:03.861 --> 00:09:06.941 a lot about engagement and people being engaged in activities. 00:09:07.291 --> 00:09:10.541 And I think that was one of the very first learnings for me was that the 00:09:10.551 --> 00:09:12.501 horses really hold people's attention. 00:09:12.501 --> 00:09:15.181 People are really present when they're with the horses. 00:09:15.291 --> 00:09:15.631 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:09:15.631 --> 00:09:18.561 So wh- when these adults were coming to you in the, in these early days, 00:09:18.561 --> 00:09:23.621 what, what sort of conditions or dilemmas or problems were they having? 00:09:23.751 --> 00:09:29.881 And w- What was your offer that gave them this engagement? 00:09:30.661 --> 00:09:33.731 Nicola Hepburn: I think initially it was just it was more of just 00:09:33.731 --> 00:09:38.091 a, a therapeutic activity that we were offering to adults who- But 00:09:38.091 --> 00:09:39.621 Rupert Isaacson: were these adults with, with trauma? 00:09:39.621 --> 00:09:41.101 Were these adults- Yeah, they were- … with autism? 00:09:41.101 --> 00:09:42.821 Were they adults with- They- Were they veterans? 00:09:42.851 --> 00:09:43.421 You know, what were they? 00:09:43.841 --> 00:09:46.071 Nicola Hepburn: They were adults with learning difficulties, neurodiversity. 00:09:46.391 --> 00:09:46.591 Okay. 00:09:46.591 --> 00:09:49.461 So they came from, like, a local support center where they'd 00:09:49.461 --> 00:09:51.041 go to, like, a day center. 00:09:51.471 --> 00:09:51.731 Rupert Isaacson: Got it. 00:09:51.801 --> 00:09:54.951 Nicola Hepburn: You know, the day center would bring them to us with support staff, 00:09:55.331 --> 00:09:59.491 and we would, you know, we'd do an hour with the horses with, with the adults. 00:09:59.911 --> 00:09:59.961 And- 00:09:59.961 --> 00:10:03.261 Rupert Isaacson: Basic activities on the ground, grooming- Grooming … leading- 00:10:03.371 --> 00:10:03.591 Nicola Hepburn: Obstacle courses 00:10:03.591 --> 00:10:04.211 … Rupert Isaacson: interacting 00:10:04.871 --> 00:10:06.011 … Nicola Hepburn: interacting with the horse. 00:10:06.271 --> 00:10:07.261 So it was all very basic. 00:10:07.261 --> 00:10:08.311 It was all on the ground. 00:10:08.511 --> 00:10:08.831 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:10:09.651 --> 00:10:11.951 Nicola Hepburn: And we just found that people were enjoying the 00:10:11.951 --> 00:10:14.531 sessions, and they were, they were getting something from it. 00:10:14.531 --> 00:10:16.871 But it wasn't you know, there was no riding. 00:10:16.871 --> 00:10:19.311 It was all very, very basic on the ground. 00:10:19.321 --> 00:10:19.341 Mm-hmm. 00:10:19.341 --> 00:10:26.351 And then I think somebody who worked with children who were completely disengaged 00:10:26.351 --> 00:10:30.151 from education heard about what I was doing, and then we started getting 00:10:30.151 --> 00:10:34.321 some children coming through, and it was mostly neurodivergent young people 00:10:35.021 --> 00:10:38.291 who were completely out of education. 00:10:38.801 --> 00:10:44.221 And it was an activity to kind of get young people re-engaged 00:10:44.231 --> 00:10:47.741 into something, into an activity, but it was very much therapeutic. 00:10:47.741 --> 00:10:49.891 It wasn't education at this point. 00:10:50.641 --> 00:10:50.931 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:10:50.931 --> 00:10:54.851 So y- you now are an educator, right? 00:10:54.851 --> 00:10:56.541 You are an educational establishment. 00:10:56.841 --> 00:10:56.861 Yeah. 00:10:56.871 --> 00:10:57.361 You are a… 00:10:57.421 --> 00:11:01.191 What is, is, is the correct term in the UK al- an alternative provision? 00:11:01.651 --> 00:11:01.781 Nicola Hepburn: Yes. 00:11:01.831 --> 00:11:02.151 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:11:02.231 --> 00:11:06.331 So for those listeners and, and watchers who are not British, basically what 00:11:06.331 --> 00:11:12.221 that means is Nicky operates effectively an alternative to school for people 00:11:12.221 --> 00:11:15.771 who have difficulty, or are refusing, or can't, or whatever, go to school. 00:11:15.791 --> 00:11:23.071 And then at Nicky's place, at Equine Learning in Warwickshire, they can learn, 00:11:23.081 --> 00:11:27.831 sit exams, take vocational courses, and in some cases even get off to college. 00:11:28.041 --> 00:11:35.331 So that's a huge evolution from groups of adults with learning difficulties 00:11:35.331 --> 00:11:41.889 coming from a, a daycare center to- designing and operating full curriculums 00:11:42.769 --> 00:11:48.169 for people who, young people who are then gonna go on and get qualifications 00:11:48.169 --> 00:11:52.489 through you, which will allow them to then enter the workforce and so on. 00:11:53.489 --> 00:11:55.679 Talk us now through what you do. 00:11:55.699 --> 00:11:57.539 How do you, how do you, how do you organize this? 00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.239 How do you offer this? 00:11:58.239 --> 00:12:01.239 How do you, how do you take someone who's like, "I'm not going to school and I hate 00:12:01.239 --> 00:12:05.249 school and I hate learning, and you can all bog off," to "Okay, I'm gonna sit 00:12:05.249 --> 00:12:08.889 my exams," and where am I gonna sit my exams and how am I gonna sit my exams? 00:12:08.889 --> 00:12:10.859 And then get off to college. 00:12:10.859 --> 00:12:12.839 How do you do this work? 00:12:12.839 --> 00:12:19.629 How do you take somebody from that almost nihilistic space and bring them along? 00:12:20.853 --> 00:12:23.493 Nicola Hepburn: Well, the qualifications that we do are 00:12:24.493 --> 00:12:25.923 mostly equine qualifications. 00:12:25.933 --> 00:12:28.463 So we already have people who

are interested in horses. 00:12:28.893 --> 00:12:29.623 Mm-hmm. 00:12:29.623 --> 00:12:32.583 So, you know, we already have something that interests the young person. 00:12:32.583 --> 00:12:36.213 So I think finding something that interests them is, you know, 00:12:36.223 --> 00:12:37.533 is … That's the key point. 00:12:37.543 --> 00:12:42.263 So if somebody's completely disengaged from education, you know, from the 00:12:42.263 --> 00:12:45.673 research I did for my masters was very much around, around this, about 00:12:45.683 --> 00:12:48.643 how do we re-engage young people, and one of the first things is finding 00:12:48.643 --> 00:12:50.013 something they're interested in. 00:12:50.393 --> 00:12:51.223 Mm-hmm. 00:12:51.443 --> 00:12:53.473 So we're, we're very lucky that we have the horses, because people 00:12:53.493 --> 00:12:56.663 tend to be very interested in horses before they come to us. 00:12:57.093 --> 00:13:01.423 And then, you know, we work, we work in a person-centered way with each individual. 00:13:01.483 --> 00:13:05.913 So for, for some people they might need to start by coming one hour a 00:13:05.913 --> 00:13:07.713 week and just get used to where we are. 00:13:07.713 --> 00:13:11.543 For some people they might need me to go around their house and meet them before 00:13:11.543 --> 00:13:13.703 they will even step foot on the premises. 00:13:13.713 --> 00:13:17.073 They might need to come and sit in the car for half an hour and then 00:13:17.073 --> 00:13:19.743 drive home, and then come back the next day and get out of the car for 10 00:13:19.743 --> 00:13:21.063 minutes, then get back in and go home. 00:13:21.063 --> 00:13:22.763 It really depends on the individual. 00:13:23.123 --> 00:13:25.793 'Cause some people you know, we have to do quite a lot of transition 00:13:25.793 --> 00:13:28.513 work before we can even get them onto an education program. 00:13:28.513 --> 00:13:30.993 So it's about creating the right environment for, for 00:13:30.993 --> 00:13:32.543 each individual young person. 00:13:32.823 --> 00:13:33.223 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:13:33.313 --> 00:13:38.383 Nicola Hepburn: And from there really the qualification side you know, we offer 00:13:38.383 --> 00:13:39.533 them something they're interested in. 00:13:39.533 --> 00:13:41.853 So if they're interested in horses, they can learn about horses, 00:13:41.863 --> 00:13:44.873 and they can do a qualification that covers all kinds of things. 00:13:44.883 --> 00:13:47.283 So it will cover animal care, it will cover feeding, it will 00:13:47.293 --> 00:13:51.513 cover you know, grooming, it will cover tacking up, it will cover… 00:13:51.563 --> 00:13:54.013 Some of them have riding as part of the qualification. 00:13:54.373 --> 00:13:57.263 So but they're learning other things within that. 00:13:57.293 --> 00:14:00.383 So you know, there are transferable skills within those qualifications. 00:14:00.383 --> 00:14:03.293 So the qualifications that we offer

are all work-based, so they're 00:14:03.293 --> 00:14:05.443 assessed through coursework. 00:14:05.513 --> 00:14:09.203 We don't do any exams, which is another really important part for some of- 00:14:09.203 --> 00:14:09.523 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:14:09.563 --> 00:14:13.143 So the way that they effectively pass their exams is by not sitting exams, 00:14:13.443 --> 00:14:15.513 but by being assessed as they go along. 00:14:15.823 --> 00:14:16.073 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:14:16.073 --> 00:14:16.293 Right. 00:14:16.293 --> 00:14:17.283 So there's, there's the… 00:14:17.293 --> 00:14:20.103 It's half practical and half theoretical. 00:14:20.103 --> 00:14:21.723 And so there is an element of written work. 00:14:21.733 --> 00:14:24.423 But for some young people, if they, if they really struggle with written 00:14:24.423 --> 00:14:28.083 work, we will scribe for them, or we'll collect evidence in a, in a 00:14:28.083 --> 00:14:29.903 way that works for that individual. 00:14:30.473 --> 00:14:30.893 Right. 00:14:30.903 --> 00:14:32.963 So and then we have done maths and English. 00:14:32.973 --> 00:14:35.083 You know, we do maths and English functional skills with young 00:14:35.083 --> 00:14:38.413 people as well, and that does involve sitting an exam, but we 00:14:38.413 --> 00:14:39.863 would invigilate that ourselves. 00:14:39.863 --> 00:14:42.353 They'd sit an exam in a room they're comfortable in at, at 00:14:42.503 --> 00:14:44.033 our facility with our staff. 00:14:44.033 --> 00:14:48.423 So it's very, it's managed in a way that really works around their needs. 00:14:49.023 --> 00:14:50.883 Rupert Isaacson: So that- And if they do sit that exam, do they sit that exam 00:14:50.913 --> 00:14:53.283 on your farm, or do you go to- Yeah. 00:14:53.363 --> 00:14:53.683 Okay. 00:14:54.143 --> 00:14:56.733 So they could do that with the horses and the ducks wandering by 00:14:57.489 --> 00:15:00.759 Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah, we tend to do it in the in the learning space that 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:04.229 we have because yeah, it's you know, it's a little less distracting in there. 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:06.909 But if they really needed to do it on the yard with the animals, 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:07.929 that would be absolutely fine. 00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:09.839 They can have animals- Okay … with them in the room, you know. 00:15:09.979 --> 00:15:12.079 We try and do it in a way where it's very person-centered. 00:15:12.089 --> 00:15:13.959 Rupert Isaacson: Gosh, I wish I'd done my exams that way. 00:15:14.189 --> 00:15:16.819 You know, I was just a- afraid of being beaten, basically. 00:15:17.459 --> 00:15:17.479 Yeah. 00:15:18.749 --> 00:15:22.339 Sitting there, sitting there in an overly hot, stuffy exam hall 00:15:22.619 --> 00:15:25.649 where we were expected to be stressed, and we were expected to 00:15:26.069 --> 00:15:27.369 deal with the stress, you know. 00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:29.329 It, it's interesting how far things have come. 00:15:29.709 --> 00:15:32.759 You know, w- what are the success stories that you've seen with 00:15:32.829 --> 00:15:34.229 people going through this process? 00:15:34.229 --> 00:15:35.839 What … Give us some examples. 00:15:36.449 --> 00:15:38.439 Nicola Hepburn: Well, we've worked with, with young people who've come to 00:15:38.439 --> 00:15:41.169 us where they've been disengaged from school for some time due to health 00:15:41.169 --> 00:15:45.889 issues or due to being a school refuser or being neurodivergent, not being 00:15:45.889 --> 00:15:47.099 able to cope in a school environment. 00:15:47.149 --> 00:15:51.369 And we've got several young people through level two and level three qualifications. 00:15:51.379 --> 00:15:57.149 With one young person, she completed her level two, her level three, her maths and 00:15:57.149 --> 00:15:58.789 her English, and went on to university. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:01.819 With other young people, they've come and studied courses with us and then 00:16:01.819 --> 00:16:05.419 gone on to other establishments to do further study or gone into the workplace. 00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:09.589 But the qualifications offer things like part, you know, part 00:16:09.589 --> 00:16:12.359 of the qualification might be a module around working as a team. 00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:15.939 So it's not all necessarily horse work or learn to work with others 00:16:15.939 --> 00:16:20.099 or understanding professional skills like timekeeping and, you know, 00:16:20.109 --> 00:16:21.639 being able to work with other people. 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:25.749 So it's … The qualifications are a bit broader than just horses. 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.569 So somebody could come and do a qualification with us, and it 00:16:28.569 --> 00:16:30.769 would give them a qualification at that level that they could then 00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:32.839 go on to study something else. 00:16:32.849 --> 00:16:36.359 So, yeah, so the young people that come to us tend to go on to something 00:16:36.359 --> 00:16:37.819 else or go into the workplace. 00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:40.349 Rupert Isaacson: And how long do they tend to stay with you? 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:41.959 What's the average time? 00:16:42.829 --> 00:16:45.409 Nicola Hepburn: Well, it's quite a long time, actually, 'cause we take a really 00:16:45.409 --> 00:16:48.819 long time to do the qualifications 'cause we work at the pace of the student. 00:16:48.849 --> 00:16:53.039 So where they might go into college and do the same qualification in a year, 00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:55.269 we might do it over two academic years. 00:16:55.939 --> 00:16:56.179 Okay. 00:16:56.179 --> 00:16:59.849 So w- w- it, you know, they tend to be with us for two to three years normally. 00:17:01.089 --> 00:17:03.429 Rupert Isaacson: So, don't know why it's giving me a thumbs down. 00:17:03.429 --> 00:17:05.769 I think it saw me do this on the side of my face. 00:17:05.809 --> 00:17:06.869 I better do this quickly.

00:17:07.389 --> 00:17:09.729 Let's see if it reacts to that. 00:17:09.729 --> 00:17:10.649 Why doesn't it react to that? 00:17:10.709 --> 00:17:11.009 Okay. 00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:11.329 Weird. 00:17:11.709 --> 00:17:13.369 But okay. 00:17:13.469 --> 00:17:18.229 The young people that come to you then, you're with them for a while, so you 00:17:18.249 --> 00:17:23.579 know that when somebody walks through your door, you're going to be with this 00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:25.979 person for hundreds of hours, right? 00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:27.139 It's not gonna be… 00:17:27.809 --> 00:17:31.729 It's, it's, it's gonna be quite a sort of intimate relationship in a 00:17:31.729 --> 00:17:34.549 way because you're gonna spend so much time in each other's company. 00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:41.789 How do you try to ensure that it's a personality fit in that case? 00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:43.749 Like, okay, couple of questions. 00:17:43.749 --> 00:17:47.639 What, what's the sort of number of these young people that you 00:17:47.639 --> 00:17:49.779 would serve at any one time? 00:17:50.861 --> 00:17:58.211 And how do you make sure that it's a fit as much as you can before 00:17:58.211 --> 00:18:02.341 you dive into this rather, you know, immersive process with them? 00:18:03.101 --> 00:18:06.461 Nicola Hepburn: Well, the, the number of students we have on the education 00:18:06.461 --> 00:18:08.521 program at any one time is six. 00:18:08.521 --> 00:18:10.491 That's our maximum number per day for the education- 00:18:10.491 --> 00:18:11.781 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's really boutique. 00:18:12.041 --> 00:18:14.551 Nicola Hepburn: It's really tiny, but obviously we do have other 00:18:14.551 --> 00:18:16.161 projects that we run alongside that. 00:18:16.161 --> 00:18:19.801 So we do our kind of one-hour mental health sessions, and then we have, like, 00:18:19.821 --> 00:18:23.201 holiday clubs and other things, and then we do private work with families as well. 00:18:23.201 --> 00:18:23.571 Mm-hmm. 00:18:23.571 --> 00:18:26.211 So the education program is only one part of what we do. 00:18:27.051 --> 00:18:31.051 But the education program specifically, we only work with six at a time maximum. 00:18:31.061 --> 00:18:32.511 It's normally less than that. 00:18:32.961 --> 00:18:33.401 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:18:33.821 --> 00:18:34.051 Nicola Hepburn: In… 00:18:34.251 --> 00:18:39.011 Before we work with the young people, we get sent their education and healthcare 00:18:39.011 --> 00:18:43.971 plan from the local authority, and we would go through that and, you know, and 00:18:43.981 --> 00:18:46.271 see if we can meet the needs in, that… 00:18:46.271 --> 00:18:47.241 laid out in the plan. 00:18:47.641 --> 00:18:51.201 And we would meet people normally before they would come, and we'd have discussions 00:18:51.201 --> 00:18:54.661 with families, and, and then we'd say if we can offer them a place or not. 00:18:54.701 --> 00:18:57.951 So we, we try, and we don't

always get it right, you know. 00:18:57.951 --> 00:19:02.071 It can be that sometimes somebody might come and they might, we might 00:19:02.071 --> 00:19:04.061 not be the right provider for them. 00:19:04.451 --> 00:19:09.621 But the only way we can really find that out sometimes is by giving it a go, you 00:19:09.621 --> 00:19:11.101 know- Mm … and enabling them to come. 00:19:11.101 --> 00:19:14.721 Maybe start with a few sm- shorter sessions first you know, 00:19:15.011 --> 00:19:19.101 and see, see how they, see how they get on with everybody else. 00:19:19.701 --> 00:19:20.921 Rupert Isaacson: And, and how is it funded? 00:19:21.061 --> 00:19:21.231 How… 00:19:22.401 --> 00:19:26.731 Nicola Hepburn: Well, we, we do private work for, for sessions, but for the… 00:19:26.741 --> 00:19:29.873 The majority of our work is funded through the local authority. 00:19:29.873 --> 00:19:30.041 So the local authority- 00:19:30.041 --> 00:19:31.081 Rupert Isaacson: Education authority. 00:19:31.551 --> 00:19:31.931 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:19:31.991 --> 00:19:37.551 So they will refer young people to us who, you know, they, they feel 00:19:37.551 --> 00:19:41.091 could benefit from coming to our more therapeutic education environment. 00:19:41.131 --> 00:19:45.581 But we tend to work with post 16, so they tend to be 16 and above at that point. 00:19:46.101 --> 00:19:48.671 We do work with younger students, but they would come to us 00:19:48.671 --> 00:19:50.001 on a very part-time basis. 00:19:50.001 --> 00:19:53.151 They would be on roll at school, and they might come to us a couple of 00:19:53.161 --> 00:19:55.131 afternoons a week or one day a week. 00:19:55.621 --> 00:19:57.931 Okay … they, they, they're not with us full time. 00:19:57.931 --> 00:20:00.121 We only work full time with post 16. 00:20:00.731 --> 00:20:05.361 Rupert Isaacson: And the, this, these six at any one time, post 16s, who are going 00:20:05.361 --> 00:20:09.711 through these qualifications with you, is that the bulk of the bread and butter 00:20:10.271 --> 00:20:14.311 of your funding, and is that the bulk of your time and the other things are more 00:20:14.311 --> 00:20:16.461 peripheral, or is it, like, a half/half? 00:20:16.461 --> 00:20:20.411 The reason I ask is, you know, as someone who runs programs myself, I'm always a bit 00:20:20.411 --> 00:20:24.901 fascinated as to how people organize it, you know, and every single place has its 00:20:24.901 --> 00:20:27.741 own economy and ecosystem, if you like. 00:20:27.841 --> 00:20:32.037 And I think one of the- points about doing this podcast is that a 00:20:32.037 --> 00:20:34.367 lot of the people who are listening are people who run programs. 00:20:34.667 --> 00:20:38.267 And we're all fascinated about how everyone else does it 00:20:38.317 --> 00:20:39.467 because it always gives us ideas. 00:20:39.707 --> 00:20:46.137 So would you say that the bulk of the money that funds the program comes 00:20:46.137 --> 00:20:50.507 from that alternative education piece with that sort of boutique number of 00:20:50.507 --> 00:20:54.457 people, and the rest is sort of somewhat peripheral, or is it the other way around? 00:20:55.315 --> 00:20:58.095 Nicola Hepburn: I'd say at the moment the bulk of our, our income 00:20:58.095 --> 00:21:00.645 does come through the alternative education work, absolutely. 00:21:01.335 --> 00:21:05.505 But that has, that has been quite a conscious choice and a development 00:21:05.625 --> 00:21:06.895 within the- Mm-hmm … business. 00:21:06.895 --> 00:21:07.965 It used to be that way. 00:21:08.215 --> 00:21:11.615 I used to run a riding center in addition to the therapeutic 00:21:11.615 --> 00:21:13.895 work to pay the bills, you know. 00:21:13.895 --> 00:21:18.085 So we've, but we've now really run down the, the riding school side of things, 00:21:18.085 --> 00:21:23.125 and we're very much now doing mostly therapeutic work and sessions, and we do 00:21:23.135 --> 00:21:25.485 a very small amount of pony club as well. 00:21:25.765 --> 00:21:25.795 But 00:21:26.165 --> 00:21:26.265 Rupert Isaacson: every- Right 00:21:26.895 --> 00:21:30.365 … Nicola Hepburn: is very much the education is, is probably the 00:21:30.375 --> 00:21:31.205 largest part of the business. 00:21:31.295 --> 00:21:33.865 Rupert Isaacson: And is that a recent thing that education, is- 00:21:33.865 --> 00:21:35.105 we're talking in the UK here. 00:21:35.805 --> 00:21:41.295 Is this a recent thing that there has been this kind of budget in educational 00:21:41.305 --> 00:21:45.715 authorities that a relatively small number of people being worked with intensively 00:21:45.715 --> 00:21:52.255 like this could actually, you know, pay a bunch of staff and keep a, you 00:21:52.255 --> 00:21:53.725 know, an alternative provision going? 00:21:53.955 --> 00:21:55.275 Or has that sort of always been there? 00:21:55.425 --> 00:21:58.685 Because it seems to me that when I first met you back in the early 2000s, 00:21:59.755 --> 00:22:01.315 you didn't hear so much about this. 00:22:01.315 --> 00:22:04.625 It seems that this is something that sort of evolved over time. 00:22:04.695 --> 00:22:05.665 Would that be right? 00:22:06.125 --> 00:22:07.125 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I would say so. 00:22:07.125 --> 00:22:11.045 I think you know, I'm thinking back to when I first met you, we were very much 00:22:11.045 --> 00:22:13.375 then running, you know, riding lessons. 00:22:13.525 --> 00:22:17.295 We were doing the therapeutic sessions, and we were doing 00:22:17.565 --> 00:22:19.045 camps and things like that. 00:22:19.065 --> 00:22:22.305 And that was very much, and the work with the local authority was there, 00:22:22.305 --> 00:22:26.155 but it was on a much smaller basis, and we had- Mm-hmm … sessions. 00:22:26.665 --> 00:22:29.425 I think there were other projects that were perhaps having more work 00:22:29.425 --> 00:22:32.085 with the local authority then, but we, we

definitely weren't. 00:22:32.335 --> 00:22:36.035 I would say this is something that has evolved, but we've had to tender for the 00:22:36.035 --> 00:22:38.015 work we have with the local authority. 00:22:38.345 --> 00:22:42.405 So the, the tendering system is where they will, you know, the, the local 00:22:42.405 --> 00:22:45.885 authority will put out a tender on, on, on a online portal, and you have 00:22:45.885 --> 00:22:47.285 to actually write a bit for the work. 00:22:47.575 --> 00:22:48.315 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see. 00:22:48.705 --> 00:22:49.925 Nicola Hepburn: So it's not the- 00:22:49.985 --> 00:22:51.915 Rupert Isaacson: Almost like you're a builder offering, you 00:22:51.915 --> 00:22:54.655 know, do- Okay … putting the roof on the town hall type thing. 00:22:54.935 --> 00:22:55.255 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:22:55.255 --> 00:22:59.435 So the, you have to know where to look for the projects, and then you write a tender, 00:23:00.035 --> 00:23:02.025 you know, to try and meet those needs. 00:23:02.055 --> 00:23:05.325 So if it's, like, education for young people, you know, you would 00:23:05.325 --> 00:23:07.935 then write a tender and, and bid to the local authority, and 00:23:07.935 --> 00:23:09.095 then they can choose you or not. 00:23:09.095 --> 00:23:11.015 So you have to be able to meet their criteria. 00:23:11.015 --> 00:23:11.135 And 00:23:11.135 --> 00:23:12.525 Rupert Isaacson: we have- And how do you learn, how do you 00:23:12.525 --> 00:23:13.905 learn how to write those tenders? 00:23:13.905 --> 00:23:15.685 I mean, that's a fairly specialist thing, no? 00:23:16.275 --> 00:23:16.525 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:23:16.525 --> 00:23:19.365 Well, I think, you know, obviously when I was younger, I did work 00:23:19.375 --> 00:23:23.255 for a national charity as fundra- Okay … marketing briefly, and 00:23:23.255 --> 00:23:24.735 that, that did really help me. 00:23:24.735 --> 00:23:27.665 That gave me skills, and it gave me an understanding of how the 00:23:27.665 --> 00:23:29.275 tendering systems and charities work. 00:23:29.635 --> 00:23:34.639 So I think I was able to, to learn some of those skills then but I 00:23:34.639 --> 00:23:36.059 think really anybody can do it. 00:23:36.329 --> 00:23:40.009 It's just about being able to know that the work is there, know how to 00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:44.229 tender, and then, you know, learn to answer the questions in a way that meet 00:23:44.239 --> 00:23:45.749 the criteria that they're looking for. 00:23:45.749 --> 00:23:47.559 So it's about reading what the criteria is. 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.969 It's the same kind of thing as doing a funding application where you read the 00:23:50.969 --> 00:23:52.979 criteria, what is it they're looking for? 00:23:53.219 --> 00:23:54.019 Can we meet this? 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:55.179 How are we gonna meet this? 00:23:55.199 --> 00:23:58.989 And making sure that you're wording it in a way that meets the criteria. 00:24:00.089 --> 00:24:00.579 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:24:01.489 --> 00:24:03.309 That's a, as you say, that's a skill. 00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:07.859 And you know, when, when I was first starting in this work, it was all about 00:24:08.629 --> 00:24:13.409 either getting donations or grant writing or providing services through, through, 00:24:13.709 --> 00:24:15.589 you know, which people paid directly. 00:24:15.789 --> 00:24:17.529 All the stuff that you described in the early years. 00:24:18.939 --> 00:24:19.349 Did you… 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.749 When you became aware that there were these tenders what was 00:24:23.749 --> 00:24:25.469 the learning process for you? 00:24:25.469 --> 00:24:27.909 I, I think people listening to this will be fascinated 'cause 00:24:27.909 --> 00:24:30.549 it's a bit like a tutor- Let's say this podcast was a tutorial. 00:24:30.549 --> 00:24:36.379 You're giving a tutorial now on how you locate and then bid. 00:24:37.349 --> 00:24:38.089 Talk us through that. 00:24:38.129 --> 00:24:42.579 How, how do you locate these tenders, and then how do you put your tender in? 00:24:43.129 --> 00:24:45.179 Nicola Hepburn: Well, each local authority will have a tendering 00:24:45.179 --> 00:24:46.909 portal for, for everything. 00:24:46.919 --> 00:24:50.279 Like you were saying for the building work, for, for anything that they're 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:52.309 tendering for, there will be a portal for each local authority. 00:24:52.609 --> 00:24:54.979 Rupert Isaacson: So you, you, you would, let's say it was me and I was 00:24:54.989 --> 00:24:56.849 starting off in Warwickshire like you. 00:24:56.849 --> 00:24:57.219 Yeah. 00:24:57.219 --> 00:25:02.939 I would go on the, my local education authority website and 00:25:02.949 --> 00:25:04.359 look for, what would I type in? 00:25:05.537 --> 00:25:08.157 Nicola Hepburn: I think you would just put in like, local authority 00:25:08.587 --> 00:25:13.217 tendering portal or tendering opportunities- Okay … and that would 00:25:13.217 --> 00:25:15.137 lead you onto the tendering portal. 00:25:15.447 --> 00:25:18.977 And there you would register an account, and then you can, you can ex- 00:25:19.027 --> 00:25:22.527 put in an expression of interest for any projects that are available that 00:25:22.697 --> 00:25:24.087 you're interested in tendering for. 00:25:24.717 --> 00:25:28.807 But sometimes the local authority might contact organizations as well. 00:25:29.237 --> 00:25:32.477 So you know, for example, the mental health sessions that we do, they 00:25:32.477 --> 00:25:35.007 actually contacted us and said, "We're putting this tender out. 00:25:35.007 --> 00:25:37.007 Would you like to bid for it?" 00:25:37.007 --> 00:25:38.712 But obviously we're already known to the local authority at this point. 00:25:38.712 --> 00:25:38.757 Right. 00:25:38.757 --> 00:25:43.657 So I think it's about getting your foot in the door with local 00:25:43.657 --> 00:25:46.897 authorities as well and meeting,

you know, speaking to the right people. 00:25:47.257 --> 00:25:48.227 So I think it, for an organization- 00:25:48.677 --> 00:25:49.717 Rupert Isaacson: How do you, how do you do that? 00:25:49.777 --> 00:25:50.527 How, how do you reach… 00:25:50.527 --> 00:25:51.827 How do you even know who to reach out to? 00:25:52.257 --> 00:25:54.537 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think if it was somebody who's interested specifically 00:25:54.537 --> 00:25:58.767 in working with young people, you know, you could contact Children's Services and 00:25:58.767 --> 00:26:00.447 say, you know, "We're an organization. 00:26:00.457 --> 00:26:01.367 This is what we're doing. 00:26:01.367 --> 00:26:03.007 Can you put me in touch with somebody?" 00:26:03.337 --> 00:26:06.007 You know, and, and make an introduction that way. 00:26:06.007 --> 00:26:09.657 But very much the, the tendering process is about looking online, seeing what 00:26:09.657 --> 00:26:13.927 the, what's available, and then just, you know, asking for all the paperwork 00:26:13.927 --> 00:26:14.987 and reading it very, very carefully. 00:26:15.937 --> 00:26:20.497 And then being realistic as well, because I think at times I put in for tenders 00:26:20.497 --> 00:26:24.797 that we weren't ready for, you know, with local authorities when we were, 00:26:25.137 --> 00:26:26.907 when we were a much younger organization. 00:26:26.907 --> 00:26:27.577 I would tender for… 00:26:27.727 --> 00:26:29.317 You know, there were tenders that I didn't get. 00:26:29.337 --> 00:26:35.067 So I think you have to be prepared to maybe not necessarily get every one, 00:26:35.127 --> 00:26:40.147 and just learn from the process and, you know, tender for things that are 00:26:40.147 --> 00:26:42.617 really, you really can deliver as well. 00:26:43.007 --> 00:26:44.417 Rupert Isaacson: Are there always tenders going out? 00:26:44.437 --> 00:26:47.487 Like, or do you sometimes go on that website and there are none? 00:26:48.517 --> 00:26:49.327 Nicola Hepburn: Well, yeah. 00:26:49.327 --> 00:26:52.427 I mean, th- they're not always ones that we would be suitable for. 00:26:52.957 --> 00:26:53.257 So- But 00:26:53.257 --> 00:26:55.167 Rupert Isaacson: there's always something being tendered for? 00:26:55.507 --> 00:26:57.537 Nicola Hepburn: There's usually something being tendered for, yeah. 00:26:57.537 --> 00:26:57.567 Okay. 00:26:57.717 --> 00:27:00.627 'Cause some of them are residential, so there may be other organizations that have 00:27:00.627 --> 00:27:05.777 residential opportunities and could do, you know, short breaks or respite or… 00:27:06.447 --> 00:27:09.767 There's lots of other opportunities, but it's just about finding the ones 00:27:09.767 --> 00:27:13.047 that are relevant to your specific organization that you can deliver. 00:27:13.697 --> 00:27:13.977 Rupert Isaacson: Have you… 00:27:14.017 --> 00:27:17.497 Can you just give us a couple of examples about where you went wrong with that? 00:27:17.577 --> 00:27:21.477 Like, y- y- you said there were some you didn't get, but I could also imagine you 00:27:21.557 --> 00:27:26.027 might get one and then have, "Oh dear, I guess I can't really deliver this." 00:27:26.077 --> 00:27:27.997 Like, I'm sure both things could happen. 00:27:28.397 --> 00:27:32.403 Could you talk us through- Any times that that has happened to 00:27:32.403 --> 00:27:33.763 you and, and kind of what you did. 00:27:33.863 --> 00:27:34.993 How did you retrieve that? 00:27:35.553 --> 00:27:38.803 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I put in a big tender quite early on with a, a 00:27:38.873 --> 00:27:42.123 local authority that wasn't our local authority, but was a neighboring 00:27:42.373 --> 00:27:45.083 local authority that was very close to the first yard that we had. 00:27:45.913 --> 00:27:51.943 And it was for short breaks for children, and I, I did spend a long time writing 00:27:51.943 --> 00:27:56.053 that tender, but in the end they came back to us and said, "Well, because you're 00:27:56.053 --> 00:27:58.853 just out of county, we're not gonna use you 'cause we only wanna use projects 00:27:58.863 --> 00:28:00.503 that are within our county boundaries." 00:28:00.823 --> 00:28:05.205 So had I asked that question- prior to submitting the tender, it 00:28:05.205 --> 00:28:06.720 would have saved me a lot of work. 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:07.052 Mm. 00:28:07.052 --> 00:28:07.384 Rupert Isaacson: But, 00:28:07.384 --> 00:28:09.755 Nicola Hepburn: but going through the process and writing it in 00:28:09.755 --> 00:28:11.265 itself was a useful exercise. 00:28:11.275 --> 00:28:11.305 Right. 00:28:11.315 --> 00:28:13.365 So I didn't see it as a wasted exercise. 00:28:13.785 --> 00:28:16.555 But you've got to remember, by this point I was already fundraising. 00:28:16.615 --> 00:28:20.115 You know, the center we have now, obviously I fundraised 00:28:20.395 --> 00:28:20.795 for all the facilities. 00:28:21.235 --> 00:28:26.745 So, you know, writing bids and, and being tenacious is really important 00:28:26.765 --> 00:28:30.035 because y- you're not gonna get everything straight away, and you've 00:28:30.035 --> 00:28:33.505 got to have absolute faith that if you keep going, that you will. 00:28:33.585 --> 00:28:36.975 You know, you will get funding, and you will get tenders, but you just 00:28:36.975 --> 00:28:40.675 have to, you know, meet the criteria, and it has to be the right one. 00:28:40.685 --> 00:28:40.695 Mm. 00:28:41.165 --> 00:28:44.195 My advice to anybody would be, you know, be tenacious about it. 00:28:44.845 --> 00:28:48.705 Don't give up at the first hurdle because this is a, a hard industry to 00:28:48.705 --> 00:28:53.555 work in, and it takes a lot of hard work to, to get funding and to get tenders. 00:28:53.555 --> 00:28:57.215 But once you do, it really does make a difference to being able to 00:28:57.215 --> 00:28:58.775 deliver with the local authority. 00:28:58.775 --> 00:29:01.105 Makes a big difference to how your

organization runs. 00:29:01.815 --> 00:29:03.855 Rupert Isaacson: Did you ever get a tender and then realize you'd 00:29:03.855 --> 00:29:05.045 bitten off more than you could chew? 00:29:05.875 --> 00:29:06.725 Nicola Hepburn: I'm gonna say no. 00:29:08.505 --> 00:29:12.035 I, I've got tenders and then realized it's a lot more administration 00:29:12.035 --> 00:29:13.815 than I realized it was going to be. 00:29:13.815 --> 00:29:18.245 Because obviously when you're, when you're accountable for public money 00:29:18.575 --> 00:29:21.675 and the, the local authority are paying you for services, there's a huge 00:29:21.675 --> 00:29:23.325 amount of admin that comes with them. 00:29:23.335 --> 00:29:23.555 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:29:23.555 --> 00:29:26.125 Nicola Hepburn: So where you're running sessions with local families and they're 00:29:26.125 --> 00:29:29.985 paying you, you know, you might have a bit of paperwork to fill in with them, 00:29:30.625 --> 00:29:35.865 but y- and you might keep some monitoring, you know, progress and things like that. 00:29:35.865 --> 00:29:39.525 But with the local authority, it's much more intense because you 00:29:39.525 --> 00:29:42.105 have to be able to prove that what you're doing is making a difference. 00:29:42.115 --> 00:29:42.135 Mm-hmm. 00:29:42.135 --> 00:29:44.675 So they want to see a lot of feedback. 00:29:44.675 --> 00:29:46.285 They want to see feedback from the families. 00:29:46.285 --> 00:29:46.755 They want to… 00:29:47.025 --> 00:29:49.735 You know, they've got to justify how they're spending their money. 00:29:50.115 --> 00:29:52.825 So you have to be able to meet their administration needs and 00:29:52.825 --> 00:29:54.015 say, "Yes, this is what we've done. 00:29:54.015 --> 00:29:55.095 This is how well we've done. 00:29:55.095 --> 00:30:00.295 This is what's worked," you know, and be able to deliver good quality 00:30:00.325 --> 00:30:02.365 provision that's worth their while. 00:30:03.415 --> 00:30:05.955 Rupert Isaacson: I think for a lot of people, yeah, I, I, I've certainly found 00:30:05.955 --> 00:30:10.845 this when I was working a lot in Texas I didn't really go out to local authorities. 00:30:10.845 --> 00:30:14.675 I didn't really let people know so much that I was… 00:30:14.675 --> 00:30:15.715 I did a little bit, you know. 00:30:15.735 --> 00:30:16.895 I went to our local school. 00:30:16.895 --> 00:30:19.335 I did a couple of things like that. 00:30:19.335 --> 00:30:22.375 But because there was no public money really available, I think 00:30:22.375 --> 00:30:27.295 it may have changed now I did all my fundraising sort of grassroots. 00:30:27.695 --> 00:30:31.915 And then gradually of course organizations contacted us and said, 00:30:31.965 --> 00:30:36.785 "Oh, you know, we're this foster care thing," or, "We're this first 00:30:36.865 --> 00:30:40.195 responders organization," or, "We're this," you know, "We have this need. 00:30:40.195 --> 00:30:42.065 Can you, can you do it?" 00:30:42.115 --> 00:30:45.215 And we would- generally say yes. 00:30:45.315 --> 00:30:47.855 Partly because we have a lot of trouble saying no. 00:30:48.215 --> 00:30:50.225 But also because we were curious. 00:30:50.325 --> 00:30:53.425 And in a funny way, I think we were willing to fail. 00:30:53.765 --> 00:30:54.675 I, I do think… 00:30:54.885 --> 00:30:57.315 I guess that's what I was driving at with, with those questions. 00:30:57.325 --> 00:30:59.265 I, I 00:31:01.441 --> 00:31:05.901 Worry that sometimes when I'm giving trainings to people in, you know, our 00:31:05.901 --> 00:31:11.461 qualifications, Horse Boy Method and Movement Method and TAKIN, that people 00:31:11.501 --> 00:31:16.091 are naturally from a very good place, very, very anxious to get it right. 00:31:16.761 --> 00:31:20.411 And of course, this isn't always gonna happen. 00:31:20.921 --> 00:31:24.581 And as you say, you know, sometimes when you don't get something, 00:31:24.771 --> 00:31:25.981 it's a good learning process. 00:31:25.981 --> 00:31:30.301 But also sometimes when you sort of get your ass handed to you by a 00:31:30.301 --> 00:31:34.961 particular individual or a particular child or a particular situation, it 00:31:34.971 --> 00:31:37.091 deepens, of course, your practice. 00:31:37.171 --> 00:31:40.201 And the next time-- And you go away and you think about it, and you talk it 00:31:40.201 --> 00:31:42.251 through with your team and, and so on. 00:31:42.281 --> 00:31:48.241 And I think for a lot of people that are listening to this show, a lot of them 00:31:48.431 --> 00:31:51.631 have been through that process or are going through that process or perhaps 00:31:51.631 --> 00:31:54.911 are on the cusp of that process and sort of, you know, nervously putting their 00:31:54.911 --> 00:31:58.431 toe in the first waters of watching the sharks swim, you know, in front of them. 00:31:58.881 --> 00:32:04.481 Talk us through your experience a little bit with 00:32:06.513 --> 00:32:10.693 When you feel that you're getting it wrong, and then what do 00:32:10.693 --> 00:32:12.873 you do with that information? 00:32:13.433 --> 00:32:19.193 Because, you know, you've been in the game now 20 years or so. 00:32:19.203 --> 00:32:19.243 Mm-hmm. 00:32:19.753 --> 00:32:21.803 You know, one looks up, and it's gone like that. 00:32:22.263 --> 00:32:24.083 But you've got a lot of wisdom to impart. 00:32:24.103 --> 00:32:28.723 You've, you've weathered many, many storms like all organizations have, 00:32:28.803 --> 00:32:31.593 and each time you pop up stronger. 00:32:31.693 --> 00:32:39.083 I- i- without going into detail that, you know, makes you uncomfortable 00:32:39.083 --> 00:32:42.723 disclosing stuff about other people, can you just give us a sort of general 00:32:42.943 --> 00:32:48.073 sense of sometimes when you felt, "Oh, I messed up on that one," and then 00:32:48.073 --> 00:32:51.813 what you did with that, and then how you took that into the next

situation? 00:32:51.813 --> 00:32:54.123 I think that this kind of thing's always useful for us. 00:32:54.643 --> 00:32:57.743 Nicola Hepburn: I mean, are we, are we talking about people or 00:32:58.443 --> 00:32:59.633 the organization in general? 00:32:59.713 --> 00:33:00.413 Rupert Isaacson: I think both. 00:33:00.513 --> 00:33:03.263 You know, just the- Okay … the, the situations that spring to mind. 00:33:03.353 --> 00:33:05.853 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you know, early on we had… 00:33:05.973 --> 00:33:10.353 You, you will know we, we had struggled to find landlords where we could stay for 00:33:10.413 --> 00:33:12.823 a length of time, and, you know- Right 00:33:12.823 --> 00:33:14.953 a lot of people are in a situation where they don't own land, and you have to 00:33:15.203 --> 00:33:15.273 Rupert Isaacson: rent. 00:33:15.283 --> 00:33:15.293 Mm. 00:33:16.253 --> 00:33:20.283 Nicola Hepburn: And that can be really tricky because every single land 00:33:20.303 --> 00:33:23.143 we've, you know, every- everywhere we've been, we've invested money. 00:33:23.143 --> 00:33:23.973 We've fundraised. 00:33:24.003 --> 00:33:24.963 We've invested money. 00:33:25.513 --> 00:33:28.553 So you'll know the, you'll remember the very first yard we were at, we had that 00:33:28.553 --> 00:33:30.083 tiny little indoor arena that was- Mm 00:33:30.083 --> 00:33:30.093 18. 00:33:30.193 --> 00:33:30.283 It 00:33:33.323 --> 00:33:34.843 was, oh, it was tiny. 00:33:34.843 --> 00:33:40.713 It was, like, 12 meters by 18 meters or something, and we converted that barn 00:33:40.713 --> 00:33:43.373 into the smallest indoor arena in the UK. 00:33:43.373 --> 00:33:44.063 It was, like, tiny. 00:33:44.113 --> 00:33:47.203 It was this tiny little barn, and we, you know, but we spent a lot of 00:33:47.203 --> 00:33:49.943 money on that yard, and then things didn't work out with the landlords. 00:33:50.063 --> 00:33:54.753 And then we moved to another bigger premises, and then perhaps at that point 00:33:54.753 --> 00:33:57.643 we'd got somewhere that was too big for what we were ready for, and we were then 00:33:57.673 --> 00:34:01.683 reliant on livery money for, you know, to, to rent out half the yard as livery. 00:34:01.683 --> 00:34:04.263 And then we were on the other yard, and then we had, then we had to 00:34:04.263 --> 00:34:08.193 kind of manage doing livery with the yard, and then that didn't work out. 00:34:08.193 --> 00:34:10.753 And then we moved from there, and we struggled to find somewhere else. 00:34:11.063 --> 00:34:15.093 And I don't know if you remember at that point, we'd, we'd fundraised, I think 00:34:15.103 --> 00:34:19.313 about £50,000 to build an arena, and it was a huge, it was the biggest funding 00:34:19.993 --> 00:34:21.563 we'd ever got, and I was so excited. 00:34:21.713 --> 00:34:23.923 And we had this funding, and then we lost our property. 00:34:23.923 --> 00:34:27.403 And then the property we were moving into also fell through,

and I was 00:34:27.413 --> 00:34:32.813 suddenly stuck with 20 horses and nowhere to go, and this, you know, this, 00:34:32.873 --> 00:34:34.953 this big, huge problem in front of us. 00:34:35.809 --> 00:34:38.569 And I think that was actually when I came out to Texas and did some training 00:34:38.569 --> 00:34:41.374 with you at that point, and came out and did the working student program. 00:34:41.374 --> 00:34:46.329 And it was just a complete reset for me at that point, because it was either, 00:34:47.189 --> 00:34:50.419 you know, I was either gonna do it or I was gonna give up , you know? 00:34:50.509 --> 00:34:52.939 Because everything had suddenly become incredibly difficult. 00:34:53.379 --> 00:34:58.339 And I think, you know, i- it was a, a time for me where I was really able to realize 00:34:58.339 --> 00:35:02.019 that I had such a, a passion for the work, and that it really meant so much to me. 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.419 And I was able to then come back, find a new premises, which is 00:35:05.419 --> 00:35:06.759 where we still are now, in fact. 00:35:06.789 --> 00:35:08.519 We've been there for 12 years. 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:13.139 And I was able to reapply for funding, get an even bigger amount, build 00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:15.249 the equestrian center, you know. 00:35:15.409 --> 00:35:18.839 And so I think in that situation it was just very much about regrouping 00:35:18.849 --> 00:35:19.819 and realizing, "Why am I doing this? 00:35:19.829 --> 00:35:21.649 Why do I do this? 00:35:21.649 --> 00:35:22.879 What am I doing it for?" 00:35:23.179 --> 00:35:26.409 And I think it has to be for the love of the work, and it has to be because 00:35:26.409 --> 00:35:28.709 you're passionate about wanting to make a difference to people. 00:35:29.289 --> 00:35:29.569 Mm-hmm. 00:35:29.569 --> 00:35:33.959 And be really passionate about what you're doing in order to have that tenacity, to 00:35:33.959 --> 00:35:37.539 have that drive, to keep things going when it gets hard, because it does get hard. 00:35:37.999 --> 00:35:42.239 Especially if you're renting, especially if, you know, funding is difficult and 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:46.659 you're having to pay your staff above yourself and things like that, you know. 00:35:46.669 --> 00:35:50.929 It's, it's not an easy industry to, to work in, and the equine 00:35:50.939 --> 00:35:52.679 industry in general, I think, can… 00:35:52.879 --> 00:35:55.299 Is, is a difficult industry. 00:35:55.309 --> 00:35:58.999 So I think for me it's about holding onto that passion and holding onto 00:35:58.999 --> 00:36:03.659 that belief, and really doing things because you, you really want to do it 00:36:03.659 --> 00:36:05.219 and you really wanna make a difference. 00:36:05.469 --> 00:36:06.563 You have to be incredibly 00:36:06.563 --> 00:36:06.877 Rupert Isaacson: passionate 00:36:06.877 --> 00:36:08.446 Nicola Hepburn: about the work, I think. 00:36:08.446 --> 00:36:11.069 Rupert Isaacson: A- and now,

I mean, I would say, I, I you're 00:36:11.069 --> 00:36:15.159 reminding me, I remember all these crises and you weathering them. 00:36:15.299 --> 00:36:20.019 And year to year, still providing services. 00:36:20.439 --> 00:36:23.619 And I think your point is really good, that most of the people that 00:36:23.899 --> 00:36:27.719 get into this vocationally do not come from land-owning families. 00:36:28.179 --> 00:36:33.265 Nor do they start with- A couple of million to go and 00:36:33.265 --> 00:36:35.475 buy and develop a property. 00:36:35.955 --> 00:36:38.585 I'd say that's the vast majority, you know, of us. 00:36:38.895 --> 00:36:44.965 So we, we might make that money later, or we might raise that money 00:36:44.965 --> 00:36:46.835 later, but we don't start that way. 00:36:47.215 --> 00:36:52.775 You know, with Horse Boy, we started with the little bit of land that came with 00:36:52.775 --> 00:36:57.535 the house that I lived in in Texas, and then I rented my neighbor's 10 acres. 00:36:58.055 --> 00:37:04.705 But there were times when his wife felt that we were an onerous presence and 00:37:04.915 --> 00:37:09.595 would threaten to kick us off, and we were always dealing with that insecurity. 00:37:09.645 --> 00:37:12.955 And it's interesting when people look at the history of Horse Boy and say, "Well, 00:37:12.955 --> 00:37:15.735 you know, it just kind of evolved, and then it went from strength to strength." 00:37:15.735 --> 00:37:22.935 I say, "Well, yeah and there were many moments of oops and ah, and whoa, and, 00:37:22.955 --> 00:37:25.855 you know, and, and why are we doing this?" 00:37:26.765 --> 00:37:29.655 And as you say, it always came down to the passion. 00:37:29.655 --> 00:37:34.895 Now, obviously, for me, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, an autism dad, but you know, there w- 00:37:35.245 --> 00:37:38.805 I could have at some point said, "Well, fine, I'll just work with my own child." 00:37:39.355 --> 00:37:43.015 But I always felt that I couldn't do that because we had stumbled into a 00:37:43.015 --> 00:37:46.835 technology that worked for others, and there were just so many other parents 00:37:46.835 --> 00:37:52.505 out there in my position who were lost, that if I didn't make this available, 00:37:52.505 --> 00:37:54.375 then shame on me sort of thing. 00:37:54.925 --> 00:38:00.425 But you've now, I'd say that the property that you're in is about 00:38:00.455 --> 00:38:02.775 as perfect as it could possibly be. 00:38:03.395 --> 00:38:08.705 Could you walk us through this property and the different things that it offers? 00:38:09.025 --> 00:38:15.935 Because I think, again, that's a really helpful thing for listeners and watchers 00:38:15.935 --> 00:38:23.175 to know that, okay, you went from effectively homeless to this over time. 00:38:23.505 --> 00:38:25.895 Tell us about your current, your, where, where you've been for the 00:38:25.895 --> 00:38:27.305 last decade and a, and a bit. 00:38:27.955 --> 00:38:28.325 Nicola Hepburn: Okay. 00:38:28.325 --> 00:38:32.975 Well, where I am now is Wootton Park, which is a, a, a private estate out 00:38:32.975 --> 00:38:33.915 in the Warwickshire countryside. 00:38:33.955 --> 00:38:36.055 It's really, you know, a really beautiful site. 00:38:36.145 --> 00:38:37.615 There were about 300 acres. 00:38:37.615 --> 00:38:41.365 I think now there's probably about 150 acres of land. 00:38:41.755 --> 00:38:43.035 There's a wedding venue there. 00:38:43.105 --> 00:38:46.955 There's you know, a big farmhouse where they do accommodations, offices. 00:38:46.955 --> 00:38:50.095 So basically the farm used to be a working farm and then it got 00:38:50.095 --> 00:38:54.075 converted and all the buildings have been converted for different uses. 00:38:54.615 --> 00:38:58.565 And it's owned by a family and the, you know, there's, there's various 00:38:58.565 --> 00:38:59.745 different businesses on site. 00:38:59.745 --> 00:39:04.705 So when I first went to Wootton Park, I rented a five-acre paddock and an arena. 00:39:04.795 --> 00:39:07.195 So it was originally because we were running camps that I went there. 00:39:07.575 --> 00:39:10.375 So I was looking for somewhere where I could run camps. 00:39:10.375 --> 00:39:13.915 I'd come back, I'd run camps on a yurt site in Devon for the 00:39:13.915 --> 00:39:15.815 summer, and then I'd come back. 00:39:15.815 --> 00:39:19.355 I'd taken all my horses to Devon for the summer, 20-odd horses to Devon, 00:39:19.355 --> 00:39:21.965 and then we brought them all back to Warwickshire, and I was renting a field. 00:39:22.555 --> 00:39:24.795 And this was the year I came back from Texas, and I was like, "Well, 00:39:24.795 --> 00:39:26.205 what, what are we gonna do now? 00:39:26.205 --> 00:39:27.135 Where am I gonna go?" 00:39:27.855 --> 00:39:30.995 And I'd seen this, this estate, and I contacted the owner and 00:39:31.025 --> 00:39:33.465 said, "You know, they, I'm looking for somewhere to run camps." 00:39:33.465 --> 00:39:35.405 And I saw that they had glamping pods. 00:39:35.825 --> 00:39:38.739 And I said, "You know, can I please, you know, can you let me know more 00:39:38.739 --> 00:39:40.425 information about the glamping pods? 00:39:40.425 --> 00:39:41.815 'Cause I'd like to run these camps. 00:39:41.815 --> 00:39:44.105 I'm looking for a, a, you know, a venue where I could take 00:39:44.115 --> 00:39:45.445 horses and run the camps." 00:39:46.015 --> 00:39:49.735 And they said, "Well, we, we've also got a paddock and an outdoor arena. 00:39:49.735 --> 00:39:50.935 Would this be of interest to you?" 00:39:51.845 --> 00:39:53.645 And I said, "Yeah, I'll be there this afternoon," and 00:39:54.055 --> 00:39:55.865 just sort of went and met them. 00:39:56.335 --> 00:39:57.575 And you know, I was very lucky. 00:39:57.575 --> 00:40:00.685 They were really interested in what I was doing, and they were really lovely people. 00:40:01.055 --> 00:40:03.055 And so that was how it started where I am now.

00:40:03.055 --> 00:40:06.715 I rented a paddock, and we started running camps there. 00:40:06.715 --> 00:40:10.425 But the rest of my horses were kept in the village, and I used to have to box them 00:40:10.655 --> 00:40:12.875 back and forth as we needed to use them. 00:40:13.305 --> 00:40:18.175 And I started off by putting up two stables and a tack room, and then 00:40:18.195 --> 00:40:21.475 applied for a license and then we were able to operate from that point. 00:40:21.515 --> 00:40:24.435 But back then, we used to do most of the sessions out around 00:40:24.435 --> 00:40:25.855 the farm through the woodland. 00:40:26.375 --> 00:40:28.495 And everything was really based on the farm. 00:40:28.875 --> 00:40:30.815 We did have a, a small wood chip arena- Mm 00:40:30.835 --> 00:40:35.765 but very much the, the farm was the therapeutic environment, and 00:40:35.765 --> 00:40:38.335 we did everything out, you know, around the tracks and in the woods. 00:40:39.055 --> 00:40:39.555 So- I 00:40:39.685 --> 00:40:42.135 Rupert Isaacson: mean, I, and to some, some degree, it sort of still is, right? 00:40:42.155 --> 00:40:45.295 You've got amazing trails through- Yeah … these fields and, and these farms. 00:40:45.405 --> 00:40:48.165 I think a lot of, a lot of people would drool to have the 00:40:48.165 --> 00:40:52.435 kind of trail opportunities that you, you guys have there. 00:40:52.435 --> 00:40:56.205 You s- I know you now have a very nice arena and a, and a covered round pen, 00:40:56.205 --> 00:41:02.441 but- W- have you, do you keep the practice of taking the kids out into nature? 00:41:02.871 --> 00:41:03.721 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, very much so. 00:41:04.141 --> 00:41:06.721 You know, at the moment we're running our summer activities, and we do, 00:41:07.441 --> 00:41:10.791 we do some riding, you know, out on trails, and then we're off in the 00:41:10.791 --> 00:41:14.341 woods stem building and pond dipping and doing those kinds of activities. 00:41:14.371 --> 00:41:15.941 So the site has got lakes. 00:41:16.371 --> 00:41:18.811 There's wakeboarding, there's paddleboarding, there's now a sauna. 00:41:18.881 --> 00:41:22.171 I mean, this has all developed over time, that it wasn't all- Mm … first started. 00:41:23.061 --> 00:41:26.981 You know, so I think for me it was very much about finding the right place. 00:41:26.981 --> 00:41:30.671 And I think initially when you start out, you might have an idea in your head 00:41:30.671 --> 00:41:35.371 that you need a stable yard, and you need to have stables, and you need an arena. 00:41:35.551 --> 00:41:38.131 But actually, when I went to Wootton Park, we had a paddock. 00:41:38.871 --> 00:41:41.871 Yeah, we did have a small wood chip outdoor arena, but it was the rest 00:41:41.871 --> 00:41:43.931 of the site that was so perfect. 00:41:43.931 --> 00:41:47.741 It was the woodland, it was the trails, it was the fact there was glamping there. 00:41:47.761 --> 00:41:51.831 So I would say for people who are looking for premises, really look outside the box. 00:41:52.081 --> 00:41:52.861 Approach people. 00:41:52.861 --> 00:41:55.261 Don't just think, "Oh, I must rent a stable yard." 00:41:55.581 --> 00:41:58.331 It's about finding a- the property that has something else to offer. 00:41:58.331 --> 00:42:02.131 Because you can build stables, you can put in an arena, but you 00:42:02.131 --> 00:42:04.471 can't recreate that environment. 00:42:04.491 --> 00:42:08.731 And I think the environment there is so perfect because it's just a beautiful 00:42:08.731 --> 00:42:12.671 site, you know, really there's no, there's nothing around it, really. 00:42:12.671 --> 00:42:17.061 It's very much in the middle of the countryside and, you know, we're very 00:42:17.061 --> 00:42:18.691 fortunate that we have the glamping there. 00:42:18.691 --> 00:42:19.721 We have the lakes. 00:42:20.041 --> 00:42:23.331 You know, we have the, the offices there as well, so we're able to 00:42:23.331 --> 00:42:26.311 do our learning in a, in a, well, we don't call it a classroom, we 00:42:26.311 --> 00:42:27.421 just call it a learning space. 00:42:27.421 --> 00:42:28.461 So we rent an office- In 00:42:28.461 --> 00:42:29.121 Rupert Isaacson: an old barn. 00:42:29.171 --> 00:42:29.661 Yeah, right. 00:42:29.681 --> 00:42:30.001 Exactly. 00:42:30.671 --> 00:42:30.691 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:42:30.951 --> 00:42:31.091 It's been converted. 00:42:31.091 --> 00:42:31.211 Barn conversion. 00:42:31.721 --> 00:42:34.291 So we're very lucky that we have everything that we need on site. 00:42:34.901 --> 00:42:38.201 Rupert Isaacson: You know, you, the, the, it, this thing of also look- 00:42:38.201 --> 00:42:41.951 thinking beyond horses, I'm always trying to prevail upon people in 00:42:41.951 --> 00:42:44.631 the equine assisted thing to, to do. 00:42:44.641 --> 00:42:47.891 Like you've got the, there's, there's this wakeboarding, set of wakeboarding 00:42:47.891 --> 00:42:53.711 lakes, which are right adjacent to your stable, the arena and so on, so… 00:42:53.761 --> 00:42:58.721 And I've taken my own children there so that they could, for example, go do the 00:42:58.721 --> 00:43:03.911 water activities which have all their own, you know, neuroscience benefits. 00:43:04.371 --> 00:43:09.381 And, you know, Rowan, my autistic son, has been served there very, very well. 00:43:09.421 --> 00:43:13.461 And then one could then go across to you, to the horses and b- back 00:43:13.461 --> 00:43:17.621 and forth and out, as you say, to, to the, to the trails, to the woods. 00:43:18.031 --> 00:43:19.391 And then there's glamping, et cetera. 00:43:19.391 --> 00:43:24.561 So when I was first beginning with Rowan we had no facilities. 00:43:24.561 --> 00:43:30.647 We just had field, horse We didn't even have trails. 00:43:30.677 --> 00:43:33.957 I had to go because it was Texas, you get shot if you go on other people's land. 00:43:34.337 --> 00:43:40.177 So what I did is I went around

to other local landowners and said, "Is it possible 00:43:40.177 --> 00:43:41.667 for me to come ride on your property?" 00:43:41.667 --> 00:43:43.327 And a whole bunch of them, of course, said no. 00:43:43.927 --> 00:43:47.887 But when I explained what I wanted to do, these are all places where 00:43:47.887 --> 00:43:53.647 I could ride to, not put a horse in a trailer a small, very, very small 00:43:54.087 --> 00:43:55.847 group said, "Yeah, okay, we get it." 00:43:56.517 --> 00:44:04.957 And what resulted was hundreds of acres of exploration wi- and creeks and deer 00:44:04.957 --> 00:44:12.247 and porcupines and armadillos and wild hogs and bobcats and incredible bird 00:44:12.247 --> 00:44:19.157 life and tree species, and all these things which I didn't own but because 00:44:19.157 --> 00:44:24.737 people got the reason why we wanted to access, and I was careful not to 00:44:24.737 --> 00:44:29.397 use any one trail too many times in a month, so we weren't too heavy of a 00:44:29.397 --> 00:44:33.107 footprint we could piece this together. 00:44:33.517 --> 00:44:37.927 And then later, you know, as you know, we, we eventually put in arenas, and we 00:44:37.927 --> 00:44:39.437 put in a covered arena, and we did one. 00:44:39.437 --> 00:44:41.507 We acquired more land as we raised money. 00:44:41.507 --> 00:44:45.807 But I'd say that the hardcore of the work that we did was 00:44:45.817 --> 00:44:47.557 always really in that sort of… 00:44:47.587 --> 00:44:48.487 Oh, look, there's that thumb size. 00:44:48.507 --> 00:44:50.927 Every time I do this it does this weird thumbs down. 00:44:50.927 --> 00:44:53.037 It's like I gotta stop do- I gotta do this instead. 00:44:53.037 --> 00:44:54.347 Look, look, see, see if that works. 00:44:54.557 --> 00:44:56.927 But it's funny, whenever I do the thumb up there, it doesn't give me a thumb up. 00:44:56.997 --> 00:44:59.767 Is there some sort of negative bias on Zoom or something? 00:45:00.347 --> 00:45:00.857 Very weird. 00:45:01.037 --> 00:45:02.997 Okay, I'll just keep my thumb away from my face. 00:45:03.517 --> 00:45:11.767 So a lot of it, I guess, was about outreach and community. 00:45:12.097 --> 00:45:15.997 And in Texas, I was always surprised when people would say yes that we could 00:45:16.247 --> 00:45:19.647 go on their land, 'cause people are terrified they're being sued, right? 00:45:19.977 --> 00:45:23.507 So it really took a lot of trust, and I did actually lose one set of 00:45:23.507 --> 00:45:26.997 pastures because eventually a guy said, "I'm just too worried that you might 00:45:26.997 --> 00:45:29.267 fall off with your kid and sue me." 00:45:29.297 --> 00:45:32.797 And there wasn't much I could say to that you know, other than an empty promise. 00:45:33.217 --> 00:45:40.197 But- I'm also like a massive hippie, and so I stood out like a bit of a sore thumb 00:45:40.197 --> 00:45:42.807 in that very conservative area of Texas. 00:45:43.227 --> 00:45:49.587 And most of my neighbors

that I was asking for access on their land would normally 00:45:50.137 --> 00:45:53.537 not like somebody like me on site. 00:45:53.827 --> 00:46:01.577 But because I sort of went very directly and said what it was for, and then I 00:46:01.577 --> 00:46:04.707 suppose a bit like a master of, of, of foxhounds or something, I would 00:46:04.967 --> 00:46:08.107 make sure that ev- every few months I would show up with bottles of whiskey. 00:46:08.107 --> 00:46:12.327 I would show up with crates of beer and sit and drink with them, and 00:46:13.507 --> 00:46:16.267 they also knew that I knew about farming, I knew about ranching, 'cause 00:46:16.267 --> 00:46:17.287 that is my family, so I could… 00:46:17.987 --> 00:46:18.947 I knew about hunting. 00:46:19.577 --> 00:46:23.657 We could establish a sort of tribe, tribal feeling that really 00:46:23.677 --> 00:46:26.547 allowed the project to flourish. 00:46:27.107 --> 00:46:29.737 And I think in a funny way, that's what you've done, too. 00:46:29.737 --> 00:46:35.877 If y- y- y- even though there were difficulties with certain places on 00:46:35.877 --> 00:46:39.827 this evolution, it seems that what you've really excelled at is being 00:46:39.837 --> 00:46:46.197 able to reach out within your community and say, "Hey, look, there is a 00:46:46.197 --> 00:46:48.087 mission here, and there's a need here. 00:46:48.927 --> 00:46:50.747 Can you help me to fulfill this need?" 00:46:51.307 --> 00:46:55.837 'Cause it sort of could be your c- your nephew, your grandkid, your, you know… 00:46:56.557 --> 00:46:59.627 W- what do you say to people who are… 00:46:59.627 --> 00:47:00.847 A lot of people are very shy. 00:47:00.857 --> 00:47:01.687 A lot of people are 00:47:04.525 --> 00:47:07.725 Afraid of rejection, afraid of judgment. 00:47:08.175 --> 00:47:11.575 What, what do you s- and I know y- you yourself are quite shy, you know, 00:47:12.345 --> 00:47:14.035 yet you always push through and do it. 00:47:14.035 --> 00:47:15.075 W- how do you get over that? 00:47:15.075 --> 00:47:18.615 How, how do you, how, what's your advice to people who are hovering 00:47:18.615 --> 00:47:21.565 on that brink, going, "Well, how, how do I build that community?" 00:47:22.435 --> 00:47:25.275 Nicola Hepburn: I think the worst thing that people can do is say no. 00:47:25.275 --> 00:47:27.065 So if somebody says no, you haven't lost anything. 00:47:27.235 --> 00:47:27.245 Mm. 00:47:27.625 --> 00:47:31.535 And I, you know, for me, I, I was very aware that what I was looking for wasn't 00:47:31.545 --> 00:47:35.085 necessarily going to just land in my lap. 00:47:35.125 --> 00:47:37.085 It was very much, you know, I had to get out and find it. 00:47:37.105 --> 00:47:40.385 And, and I think when you tell people about the work and you tell people 00:47:40.385 --> 00:47:45.125 what you want to do, generally, even if they're not interested, they'll say, 00:47:45.125 --> 00:47:46.685 "Oh, have you tried such and such?" 00:47:46.685

--> 00:47:49.760 Or, you know, I think the farming community, they all 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:50.705 know each other as well. 00:47:50.705 --> 00:47:52.145 A lot of the landowners know each other. 00:47:52.145 --> 00:47:55.105 So even if you go to one landowner and they say no, they might point you 00:47:55.115 --> 00:47:56.845 in the direction of somebody else. 00:47:57.205 --> 00:47:59.065 So I think it's about just getting over it, really. 00:47:59.325 --> 00:48:02.915 Getting over your shyness and just putting yourself out there, because anything 00:48:02.925 --> 00:48:08.025 that's worth doing takes hard work and takes, you know, y- you have to be able 00:48:08.025 --> 00:48:11.115 to get over yourself, really, and just- W- 00:48:11.175 --> 00:48:12.545 Rupert Isaacson: would you actually drive up people's drive… 00:48:12.545 --> 00:48:13.995 Look, Snaps doing that thing again. 00:48:13.995 --> 00:48:16.385 W- would you, would you, would you drive up people's driveways and 00:48:16.385 --> 00:48:17.655 actually knock on their door or- 00:48:18.635 --> 00:48:20.635 Nicola Hepburn: I, mm, I have- Yeah … done that, yeah. 00:48:21.235 --> 00:48:24.385 And, you know, with the, the site I am now, I contacted them. 00:48:24.445 --> 00:48:25.105 It was speculative. 00:48:25.345 --> 00:48:25.365 Yeah. 00:48:25.365 --> 00:48:29.075 I contacted them and said, you know, "Would you be interested in this? 00:48:29.085 --> 00:48:31.275 Is this something we could run at your property?" 00:48:31.275 --> 00:48:31.565 And it- 00:48:31.755 --> 00:48:31.855 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:48:31.905 --> 00:48:35.055 Nicola Hepburn: And you know, like I say, as it happened initially, I 00:48:35.055 --> 00:48:38.365 was just renting a pa- a paddock, and the arena were running camps here, 00:48:38.475 --> 00:48:41.315 and all my horses were in a different field in the village that I rented. 00:48:41.325 --> 00:48:46.175 So it, look, it wasn't the ideal setup initially, but then as time went on and 00:48:46.185 --> 00:48:50.085 the camps were successful and we got this funding bid, you know, I managed to 00:48:50.085 --> 00:48:51.625 get this funding bid to build an arena. 00:48:51.635 --> 00:48:53.635 It was then I was able to go to them and say, "Look, I've got this 00:48:53.635 --> 00:48:55.865 funding, you know, I wanna stay here. 00:48:55.865 --> 00:48:56.705 Can we work with you?" 00:48:56.705 --> 00:49:01.235 And I was very lucky that they were people who were open to new ideas 00:49:01.255 --> 00:49:03.055 and creative people themselves. 00:49:03.405 --> 00:49:03.415 Mm. 00:49:03.445 --> 00:49:07.895 And, you know, people who'd converted their whole farm and had vision. 00:49:08.315 --> 00:49:11.815 You know, so I was, I was lucky that I, you know, I met the right people who 00:49:11.815 --> 00:49:13.285 were able to support what I was doing. 00:49:13.675 --> 00:49:18.685 But I was running the business for probably eight years prior to that before 00:49:18.735 --> 00:49:20.475 I managed to find that right place. 00:49:21.151 --> 00:49:23.481 Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're 00:49:23.481 --> 00:49:27.911 considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:49:27.981 --> 00:49:32.251 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:49:32.311 --> 00:49:37.891 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:49:38.486 --> 00:49:44.796 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:49:44.796 --> 00:49:47.466 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:49:47.466 --> 00:49:50.346 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:49:50.686 --> 00:49:53.956 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:49:54.451 --> 00:49:59.401 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:50:00.061 --> 00:50:01.501 It works incredibly well. 00:50:01.501 --> 00:50:03.221 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:50:03.931 --> 00:50:04.681 Check it out. 00:50:05.361 --> 00:50:09.511 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:50:09.521 --> 00:50:12.891 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:50:12.891 --> 00:50:14.641 applied in schools, in homes. 00:50:14.841 --> 00:50:19.831 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:50:19.831 --> 00:50:21.371 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:50:22.726 --> 00:50:24.006 when they're not with you. 00:50:24.516 --> 00:50:27.956 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:50:28.316 --> 00:50:30.936 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:50:30.936 --> 00:50:34.936 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:50:34.966 --> 00:50:39.256 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:50:39.696 --> 00:50:43.036 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:50:43.056 --> 00:50:47.296 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:50:47.496 --> 00:50:51.786 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:50:51.786 --> 00:50:55.086 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:50:55.086 --> 00:50:58.181 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:50:58.421 --> 00:51:02.921 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:51:03.251 --> 00:51:04.901 absolutely gives you this. 00:51:04.961 --> 00:51:05.331 Right. 00:51:05.371 --> 00:51:07.711 And you, as you say, you reached out to them. 00:51:07.711 --> 00:51:12.581 I th- I think one of the, the hardest things to get over, because 00:51:12.581 --> 00:51:19.541 we're all just conditioned not to do it, is to simply go and ask 00:51:21.817 --> 00:51:23.167 It w- could we do this? 00:51:23.397 --> 00:51:27.767 And as you say, the worst thing that someone can do i- is, is no, is say no, 00:51:27.817

--> 00:51:29.747 and that, that certainly doesn't kill you. 00:51:29.917 --> 00:51:32.767 And then as you also say, that some- sometimes they say, "No, 00:51:32.797 --> 00:51:34.877 but you could try so and so." 00:51:35.407 --> 00:51:40.017 Then another thing I've often found too is they might say no now, but 00:51:40.017 --> 00:51:45.017 for some reason when you ask ag- keep asking, because things change. 00:51:45.077 --> 00:51:45.807 Y- you… 00:51:46.607 --> 00:51:50.227 People's brains change, people's personalities change, people's economic 00:51:50.227 --> 00:51:54.537 circumstances change, and so i- it's often good to check in, I feel. 00:51:54.817 --> 00:51:58.407 And, and w- sometimes it can even happen spontaneously. 00:51:58.407 --> 00:51:58.737 I… 00:51:58.817 --> 00:51:59.047 The… 00:51:59.107 --> 00:52:02.287 One of the properties that we used to ride on, I don't know if you remember, 00:52:02.287 --> 00:52:04.107 it was called the A&L Ranch in Texas. 00:52:04.117 --> 00:52:04.907 Yeah, I do. 00:52:04.907 --> 00:52:09.017 And owned by Big Al who was like a, a major character, and not 00:52:09.027 --> 00:52:10.317 someone to get on the wrong side of. 00:52:10.647 --> 00:52:13.237 But if he was on your side, amazing, amazing bloke. 00:52:13.307 --> 00:52:18.617 And when I first went and asked if we could access that land, which had, 00:52:18.727 --> 00:52:23.637 if you remember those, that beautiful creek with those mature pecan, old 00:52:23.637 --> 00:52:25.597 pecan groves on it, it's so beautiful. 00:52:26.117 --> 00:52:29.557 It was actually his dad, who I think was probably in his late 80s or 00:52:29.557 --> 00:52:33.687 early 90s who was still running it, and I remember him looking at me and 00:52:33.687 --> 00:52:35.037 just thinking, "Who is this hippie?" 00:52:35.567 --> 00:52:39.537 And when I asked him, you know, "Could we do this?" 00:52:39.537 --> 00:52:40.557 He was like, "Why? 00:52:40.567 --> 00:52:41.777 Why do you wanna come on my land? 00:52:41.787 --> 00:52:43.517 Now, are you bringing a metal detector? 00:52:43.517 --> 00:52:44.657 Are you, are you bringing guns? 00:52:44.657 --> 00:52:45.847 Are you, are you… 00:52:45.847 --> 00:52:46.757 What are you looking for? 00:52:46.757 --> 00:52:47.427 Like, what are you… 00:52:47.427 --> 00:52:48.597 You, you wanna hunt something? 00:52:48.597 --> 00:52:49.857 You wanna find something? 00:52:49.857 --> 00:52:52.507 Like, what have I got on my land that you want that I don't know about you?" 00:52:52.927 --> 00:52:53.577 And it was so weird. 00:52:53.577 --> 00:52:59.017 I was like, "No, I'm just British and we like to go for walks on the countryside." 00:52:59.017 --> 00:53:01.077 And he's like, he's like, "Well, you know, you can pretty much get 00:53:01.077 --> 00:53:02.887 everywhere you want to in a truck." 00:53:02.887 --> 00:53:05.387 I'm like, "Yeah, but that's not what I wanna do. 00:53:06.427 --> 00:53:08.087 And anyway, I've got this autistic kid and…" 00:53:08.577 --> 00:53:10.057 And okay, fine, he said no. 00:53:10.517 --> 00:53:14.407 But I remember being in the bath about three years later, and there's this 00:53:14.417 --> 00:53:18.287 knock on the door, and I got out of the bath, you know, get a bathrobe 00:53:18.307 --> 00:53:22.117 on, answer the door, and it was his son who'd been there in the background 00:53:22.597 --> 00:53:28.697 as a mature, you know, sort of grown man son, but hadn't said a word. 00:53:28.717 --> 00:53:33.201 Obviously, the old man was a bit of a tyrant And he said, "The old man's dead. 00:53:33.281 --> 00:53:34.511 You can come on any time you want." 00:53:35.291 --> 00:53:39.341 And that was Big Al, you know, who then was, like, one of 00:53:39.341 --> 00:53:40.731 our staunchest supporters. 00:53:40.971 --> 00:53:44.501 But if I'd never gone and asked, and if I hadn't gone through that initial refusal- 00:53:45.081 --> 00:53:45.491 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah 00:53:46.071 --> 00:53:48.221 … Rupert Isaacson: and I, I guess it, it, there's a thing too that one 00:53:48.231 --> 00:53:52.721 has to find it in one's heart not to judge or feel bitter or angry for 00:53:52.721 --> 00:53:56.931 the people that do refuse you because you, they're always teaching you 00:53:56.931 --> 00:54:03.481 something, and you never know but that something's not gonna come through that- 00:54:04.131 --> 00:54:04.351 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah 00:54:04.381 --> 00:54:05.831 Rupert Isaacson: if you can keep your heart open. 00:54:06.581 --> 00:54:08.301 But obviously that can be difficult when you're feeling 00:54:08.721 --> 00:54:09.981 stressed and desperate, you know. 00:54:11.011 --> 00:54:11.381 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 00:54:11.431 --> 00:54:12.491 I think so, definitely. 00:54:12.491 --> 00:54:15.001 I mean, I, yeah, I mean, that ranch in Texas, I remember riding on. 00:54:15.001 --> 00:54:16.801 It was so amazing with all the wildflowers as well. 00:54:16.801 --> 00:54:19.501 It was so … 'Cause I was always really shocked that there 00:54:19.501 --> 00:54:20.901 were so many flowers in Texas. 00:54:20.901 --> 00:54:24.635 I always imagined it to be really dry, and it was, yeah, it was very beautiful. 00:54:24.635 --> 00:54:29.461 But I think, yeah, I think it's definitely a case of, you know, not being afraid 00:54:29.461 --> 00:54:32.311 of people to say no, and they have the right to say no at the end of the day. 00:54:32.311 --> 00:54:34.047 If they don't want you there, they don't want 00:54:34.047 --> 00:54:34.365 Rupert Isaacson: you 00:54:34.365 --> 00:54:37.851 Nicola Hepburn: on- Mm … and, but I'd, I found that most people 00:54:38.031 --> 00:54:40.951 when you ask them and they say no, they're really polite about it. 00:54:40.951 --> 00:54:44.471 I, you know, I don't think anybody has ever been offended by me asking. 00:54:44.481 --> 00:54:44.501 Yeah. 00:54:45.191 --> 00:54:47.891 And I think if I hadn't have asked, and that was how I found 00:54:47.891 -->

00:54:51.831 my first property, you know, the, the one with the very small arena. 00:54:51.871 --> 00:54:55.371 That was, you know, I had to spend, I spent months and months and months and 00:54:55.371 --> 00:54:58.431 months searching for that and knocking on doors and asking people because 00:54:59.061 --> 00:55:01.791 I, you know, I was operating out of a liveryard like I say, initially. 00:55:01.801 --> 00:55:04.451 So it was, I think most of the properties 00:55:06.571 --> 00:55:08.579 I've had you know, I've had to be, I've really had to put 00:55:08.579 --> 00:55:09.739 myself out there for them. 00:55:09.739 --> 00:55:14.029 So I think, yeah, I d- I don't think people mind you asking at all. 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.329 Rupert Isaacson: And then you end up with the perfect property, and 00:55:17.329 --> 00:55:21.029 then of course you have the … And, and, and you get your funding, and 00:55:21.029 --> 00:55:23.989 you get all that, and then you have to deliver the service and which of 00:55:23.989 --> 00:55:25.189 course you were always doing anyway. 00:55:25.609 --> 00:55:29.669 Let's talk about this a little bit because I think you being 20 years in 00:55:30.049 --> 00:55:37.269 both of us, you know, 20 years in, we've o- obviously seen a lot of different w- 00:55:38.439 --> 00:55:41.629 challenges of delivering the service. 00:55:41.629 --> 00:55:45.349 I think, I think a lot of people feel that, oh, well, you're delivering this 00:55:45.349 --> 00:55:48.459 wonderful service, and people will just sort of show up and be very happy 00:55:48.459 --> 00:55:52.209 and very grateful, and, you know, or, and, and of course it's not the case. 00:55:52.259 --> 00:55:53.229 When we were- 00:55:55.337 --> 00:55:56.707 Operating out of Texas. 00:55:56.937 --> 00:56:01.387 You know, as you know, I, I did the first decade of our services completely free 00:56:01.387 --> 00:56:08.327 of charge because I'd been so broke when Rowan's diagnosis had come that I felt 00:56:08.327 --> 00:56:15.257 this real obligation to try to give the services free or massively subsidized. 00:56:15.257 --> 00:56:21.487 And r- in retrospect, I realized that was actually a mistake that what happened 00:56:21.487 --> 00:56:26.107 was I created massive entitlement, and people often didn't value what we were 00:56:26.107 --> 00:56:30.997 offering, and we would be bending over backwards providing incredible play dates 00:56:30.997 --> 00:56:35.097 where p- kids were not just becoming verbal, but we were as, like you, getting 00:56:35.097 --> 00:56:39.737 them their academic skills and all this and being with this really inventive 00:56:39.737 --> 00:56:45.687 staff and, you know, brilliant minds working for us who were really working 00:56:45.687 --> 00:56:47.367 on behalf of these, of these families. 00:56:48.117 --> 00:56:50.617 And w- after a while, you know, it was, it was weird. 00:56:50.617 --> 00:56:53.667 We could really tell we-- it just wasn't really valued. 00:56:54.147 --> 00:56:59.387 And more than that, I almost became afraid of some of the clients that we 00:56:59.387 --> 00:57:03.377 had because the sense of entitlement meant that sometimes they could be quite 00:57:03.377 --> 00:57:07.617 aggressive, and that's like, wow, you know, we could get sued here, you know. 00:57:07.617 --> 00:57:08.907 And that's weird. 00:57:08.907 --> 00:57:13.257 And, and then, so when I got to Germany, I switched the model and 00:57:13.257 --> 00:57:18.167 said, "No, we will charge, but I can, of course, give scholarships. 00:57:18.707 --> 00:57:23.767 But if I give scholarships, they could be free or they could be subsidized or they 00:57:23.767 --> 00:57:27.987 could be to this, but there will now be a sort of official process that people 00:57:28.207 --> 00:57:32.677 need to go through in order to get that scholarship, and it will be a minority." 00:57:33.177 --> 00:57:35.637 And weirdly, that worked so much better. 00:57:36.057 --> 00:57:39.267 People really valued what we did so much more. 00:57:40.457 --> 00:57:45.707 What's been your experience with this, and what's your advice to people 00:57:46.147 --> 00:57:48.157 going into it, you know, vocationally? 00:57:48.157 --> 00:57:51.527 Because when you and I first began, we almost had to, you 00:57:51.527 --> 00:57:53.017 know, pay to do the work. 00:57:53.017 --> 00:57:55.007 You know, it was a real labor of love. 00:57:55.007 --> 00:57:57.247 We, you know, we ran broke doing it a lot of the time. 00:57:57.457 --> 00:58:00.557 Now, there really is a lot of government money out there. 00:58:00.577 --> 00:58:01.277 Things have changed. 00:58:01.287 --> 00:58:04.037 Thank God, it's a good, it's a good thing, and it's now become a sort 00:58:04.037 --> 00:58:08.027 of viable career path for people to go into equine-assisted stuff. 00:58:08.127 --> 00:58:10.857 But I think a lot of people don't understand some of the challenges that 00:58:10.857 --> 00:58:12.237 might be waiting for them when they do it. 00:58:12.537 --> 00:58:14.007 Can you talk us through that a little bit? 00:58:14.027 --> 00:58:18.723 You know, again, you don't have to Give too many details, but I think, I think 00:58:19.153 --> 00:58:23.743 this type of wisdom is needed for people that are gonna go into the field I 00:58:24.583 --> 00:58:27.643 Nicola Hepburn: think, you know, for a lot of people it is a passion 00:58:27.653 --> 00:58:29.973 that's come from personal experience. 00:58:29.983 --> 00:58:32.663 So for you, you know, with Rowan it was very personal to you. 00:58:32.663 --> 00:58:36.013 I think with me, you know, I was a homeless teenager and I, you 00:58:36.013 --> 00:58:38.823 know, I lived in a homeless hostel for a while when I was a teenager. 00:58:39.133 --> 00:58:42.953 And so I think perhaps I didn't realize at the time, but I was trying to 00:58:42.953 --> 00:58:48.103 create service that I needed or I would have needed at that point in my life. 00:58:48.123 -->

00:58:51.653 And so I think, you know, when you have that passion for the work and 00:58:51.653 --> 00:58:54.963 you're trying to create something that's so personal to you, and I think 00:58:54.963 --> 00:58:58.873 a lot of people who go into this field have had personal experience which 00:58:59.333 --> 00:59:03.143 in their lives which has led them to want to make a difference to other people. 00:59:03.443 --> 00:59:07.093 And when you approach it from that place, it becomes a, a passion project and you 00:59:07.093 --> 00:59:10.863 want every family who comes through the door to benefit and you want everybody to 00:59:11.383 --> 00:59:13.413 leave feeling better than they came in. 00:59:13.923 --> 00:59:18.633 Sometimes to your own detriment because you're more focused on them, you know, and 00:59:18.633 --> 00:59:22.533 doing, doing the right thing than you are necessarily, like you say, on the business 00:59:22.533 --> 00:59:25.233 or on making it financially viable. 00:59:25.503 --> 00:59:29.563 So my advice would be, you know, don't lose sight of that. 00:59:29.973 --> 00:59:33.673 But at the same time, you know, pay yourself first. 00:59:33.673 --> 00:59:36.103 Make sure that you can afford to keep things running. 00:59:36.143 --> 00:59:40.233 Make sure that if families are not behaving in a way that 00:59:40.233 --> 00:59:44.103 you find acceptable, don't be afraid to say, "Look, I'm sorry. 00:59:44.163 --> 00:59:45.483 This isn't okay." 00:59:45.663 --> 00:59:46.263 You know? 00:59:46.653 --> 00:59:53.403 Because it causes a lot of damage to the whole team and the whole environment 00:59:53.403 --> 00:59:57.953 if you've got families or young people who are behaving in a way which is, 00:59:58.733 --> 01:00:00.163 you know, against your policies. 01:00:00.173 --> 01:00:03.563 So I'd say have a very clear behavior policy in place, have very clear 01:00:03.563 --> 01:00:06.093 policies in place from the outset. 01:00:06.223 --> 01:00:06.443 The… 01:00:06.633 --> 01:00:10.903 And so that people understand that the expectations, they understand. 01:00:11.093 --> 01:00:14.553 You know, have, have agreements in place that people sign before they come 01:00:14.873 --> 01:00:16.613 that say, "These are our expectations. 01:00:16.613 --> 01:00:17.983 These are our behavior policies. 01:00:18.023 --> 01:00:18.983 This is what we offer. 01:00:18.983 --> 01:00:21.933 This is what we don't offer," so that when people come you have a 01:00:21.933 --> 01:00:23.413 document you can refer them to. 01:00:23.993 --> 01:00:27.043 You know, I'd say that's been very important for us, and having behavior 01:00:27.043 --> 01:00:32.213 policies and terms and conditions that we can be very clear about and participant 01:00:32.233 --> 01:00:36.763 agreements signed before people come so they understand all these things has been, 01:00:36.783 --> 01:00:38.683 has really helped, helped me with that. 01:00:38.733 --> 01:00:43.753 Because I think there's been times when I've been over generous or I've been you 01:00:43.753 --> 01:00:46.703 know, where a family may not have treated us very well and I've tried to continue 01:00:46.703 --> 01:00:50.753 helping them because I think it's the right thing to do to our own detriment. 01:00:50.763 --> 01:00:51.113 You know? 01:00:51.113 --> 01:00:54.293 So I think have those policies in place and really stick to them 01:00:55.989 --> 01:00:57.619 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, which can be difficult, as you say, 01:00:57.659 --> 01:00:59.019 'cause emotions get involved. 01:00:59.349 --> 01:00:59.369 Mm-hmm. 01:00:59.469 --> 01:01:04.769 One of the things I found with that too, is sometimes people will leave but 01:01:04.769 --> 01:01:09.519 then they might come back later, oddly enough when they've had a bit of a think. 01:01:10.249 --> 01:01:14.109 One of, one of my current things is that, as you know, we have Horse 01:01:14.109 --> 01:01:16.999 Boy Method and Movement Method, and Movement Method is without horses, 01:01:17.359 --> 01:01:19.209 so it's what you can do at home. 01:01:19.749 --> 01:01:25.319 So what I now do is I ask parents to do a Movement Method course, 01:01:26.059 --> 01:01:29.899 at least online 'cause that costs the princely sum of about £30. 01:01:30.329 --> 01:01:35.359 And it'll be a certain number of hours of their time, or we have 01:01:35.359 --> 01:01:39.439 a shortened one that they can do live, which is, like, £75. 01:01:39.799 --> 01:01:41.389 So we make it as cheap as we can. 01:01:41.739 --> 01:01:50.459 But I say, "Look, if after six weeks you haven't done that, then we can't guarantee 01:01:50.459 --> 01:01:58.319 that what we do here will continue at home, and if it doesn't, then f- honestly, 01:01:58.319 --> 01:02:04.359 you know, no matter what good effects you get here, they won't stick in the same 01:02:04.359 --> 01:02:10.059 way that they will if you have a 24/7 culture of this type of neurologically 01:02:10.059 --> 01:02:11.339 based movement going on at home. 01:02:13.059 --> 01:02:16.689 Now, I understand that you're busy, and so six weeks may very well 01:02:16.689 --> 01:02:18.259 go by and you haven't done it. 01:02:18.269 --> 01:02:23.869 So tell you what, why don't we extend that another six weeks, 12 weeks, and 01:02:23.879 --> 01:02:26.159 I'll extend it even another 12 weeks. 01:02:26.549 --> 01:02:32.789 But if at the end of that there's no buy-in, then generally what I'll say is, 01:02:32.789 --> 01:02:38.859 "Well, I, I'm sorry, but I need to now make this space available to a family 01:02:38.859 --> 01:02:43.839 that will do that, because we really need to see lasting difference here 01:02:43.839 --> 01:02:45.259 because we're putting in a lot of effort. 01:02:45.619 --> 01:02:47.399 However, the door is open. 01:02:47.399 --> 01:02:48.559 You can always come back. 01:02:48.989 --> 01:02:50.999 But perhaps this isn't for you right now." 01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:55.829 And that I found … You know, I wish

I'd been saying that 10 years ago. 01:02:56.529 --> 01:02:56.799 Yeah. 01:03:00.647 --> 01:03:08.087 When now I think we're dealing with a very different landscape socially to what we 01:03:08.087 --> 01:03:09.397 were dealing, particularly post-COVID. 01:03:09.887 --> 01:03:17.947 And it can be a bit of a minefield for practitioners and providers as well. 01:03:18.007 --> 01:03:21.517 You might u- use the wrong pronoun for somebody now, you know, stuff we 01:03:21.517 --> 01:03:22.967 wouldn't have thought about 20 years ago. 01:03:23.287 --> 01:03:26.107 You might be perceived as 01:03:29.107 --> 01:03:33.177 Unsympathetic to a particular gender orientation or something. 01:03:33.377 --> 01:03:38.757 Even if you actually are, things can be, y- y- you are very supportive you 01:03:38.757 --> 01:03:44.387 can end up being thrown into these roles by effectively stroppy teenagers, you 01:03:44.387 --> 01:03:49.967 know, who now have a sort of ammunition of things which can be used in that 01:03:49.967 --> 01:03:51.677 way which were not really there before. 01:03:51.677 --> 01:03:56.297 And it's made, I think, the provision of services actually quite a lot more 01:03:56.307 --> 01:04:00.537 stressful for because, you know, you're also trying to keep people alive. 01:04:00.537 --> 01:04:05.307 You're also trying to educate, you're also trying to provide what's needed. 01:04:06.377 --> 01:04:10.947 And now there's this feeling of, gosh, if I put a foot wrong, you know, or 01:04:10.947 --> 01:04:18.041 say the wrong thing even inadvertently I could be punished for this. 01:04:18.441 --> 01:04:22.461 What, what has been your experience with this? 01:04:22.511 --> 01:04:28.211 And again, your advice for people who are entering the business 01:04:28.211 --> 01:04:31.281 because it's, it, it's changed for the better- Yeah … because there's 01:04:31.281 --> 01:04:32.901 funding, but it's become trickier. 01:04:33.631 --> 01:04:35.261 How would you, what would you say to people about how to 01:04:35.261 --> 01:04:36.341 navigate this sort of thing? 01:04:37.281 --> 01:04:40.011 Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know, keeping yourself informed is really 01:04:40.011 --> 01:04:43.591 important because obviously things are very different now than they were 20 01:04:43.591 --> 01:04:45.811 years ago, and there's, and there's certain times when I feel, you know, 01:04:47.321 --> 01:04:49.151 I don't have all the information, you know, about, about new things that are 01:04:49.151 --> 01:04:49.521 you know, new best practice, I guess. 01:04:49.771 --> 01:04:50.151 Mm-hmm. 01:04:55.581 --> 01:04:59.381 So I'd say that's about, that's about being part of a community as well. 01:04:59.401 --> 01:05:03.071 That's about being part of you know, communities with other providers 01:05:03.321 --> 01:05:06.261 locally, communities with other people, keeping in touch with other people so 01:05:06.261 --> 01:05:09.781 you can all have these discussions and almo- it's almost like a supervision, 01:05:09.781 --> 01:05:13.691 I guess, isn't it, where you're working with people and you're able to discuss 01:05:13.691 --> 01:05:14.721 what's happening with other people. 01:05:14.771 --> 01:05:16.411 I think that's really, really important. 01:05:16.761 --> 01:05:20.171 And I think, you know, like with with Horseboy as well, you know, there's 01:05:20.171 --> 01:05:24.071 like the online chat groups and things which are i- resources where you've 01:05:24.071 --> 01:05:27.221 got practitioners from everywhere where you can all discuss these things, and 01:05:27.221 --> 01:05:30.716 I think that's really important is having that community of practitioners. 01:05:30.716 --> 01:05:31.101 Mm-hmm. 01:05:31.631 --> 01:05:34.851 And trying to keep yourself informed, you know, through trainings. 01:05:34.851 --> 01:05:38.051 I think with the local authority obviously, when you work with the local 01:05:38.051 --> 01:05:41.961 authority you get the opportunity to learn a lot more about safeguarding and 01:05:41.971 --> 01:05:45.381 being involved in safeguarding courses and especially with education they, you 01:05:45.381 --> 01:05:48.021 know, they're very good at keeping you up to date with what you need to know 01:05:48.101 --> 01:05:52.341 in, in, in terms of legislation like keeping children safe in education. 01:05:52.901 --> 01:05:56.021 You know, so you have to be really knowledgeable about these things and 01:05:56.021 --> 01:05:59.241 have a really good understanding of them and make sure your team are trained 01:05:59.481 --> 01:06:03.771 so that, you know, when you, when you hit a hurdle like a young person 01:06:03.771 --> 01:06:06.461 complains about something, again, you've got all the training in place, 01:06:06.461 --> 01:06:09.221 you've got the procedures in place, you've got everything in place so that 01:06:09.951 --> 01:06:13.111 you're, you're protecting yourselves and you're protecting your team. 01:06:13.111 --> 01:06:13.751 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:06:13.801 --> 01:06:15.681 Nicola Hepburn: Through best practice really. 01:06:16.001 --> 01:06:19.841 I think, you know, that's a really important thing is to make sure that 01:06:19.841 --> 01:06:23.261 you've got those protections in place so that if ever there is an allegation 01:06:23.261 --> 01:06:28.371 or there's any questioning about, you know, anything that you've, you've got 01:06:28.371 --> 01:06:33.371 all the processes in place to protect not just safeguard the young people 01:06:33.371 --> 01:06:36.291 you're working with, but also safeguard your own team and your own business. 01:06:37.293 --> 01:06:38.863 Rupert Isaacson: The other safeguarding has to go two ways. 01:06:38.933 --> 01:06:39.523 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah It does, absolutely. 01:06:39.523 --> 01:06:43.203 And, and we keep a daily log and we ke- keep a daily feedback sheet. 01:06:43.203 --> 01:06:45.793 So for our education program, the young people will fill in a 01:06:45.833 -->

01:06:49.173 daily feedback sheet so we can discuss what's happened that day. 01:06:49.173 --> 01:06:52.093 We give them feedback as part of our, you know, way of 01:06:52.093 --> 01:06:53.693 working, our reflection process. 01:06:54.043 --> 01:06:57.463 And then we also keep, like, a, a log of the students on a daily basis 01:06:57.473 --> 01:07:00.843 so that if somebody says, "Oh, this happened on that day," we've got student 01:07:00.853 --> 01:07:03.973 feedback, we've got a log, we can go back, we can see what's happened. 01:07:04.463 --> 01:07:07.043 You know, and I find those tools really useful as well. 01:07:07.353 --> 01:07:08.913 Mm … so that we're, you know, we're keeping track of everything. 01:07:08.913 --> 01:07:11.163 And then we've also got feedback from the students, which is 01:07:11.163 --> 01:07:14.483 really, really important to help shape the provision as well. 01:07:14.483 --> 01:07:18.933 Because if you have something that keeps coming up on the feedback, you 01:07:18.933 --> 01:07:21.413 know, you can look at that and go, "Hang on, you know, these students 01:07:21.413 --> 01:07:22.603 are all saying this is an issue. 01:07:22.603 --> 01:07:25.993 We need to do something about this, and we need to shape the provision around them." 01:07:26.343 --> 01:07:30.013 So I think to provide a really person-centered provision, you 01:07:30.013 --> 01:07:33.923 have to have feedback from the pe- the people you're working with in 01:07:33.923 --> 01:07:35.553 order to shape it appropriately. 01:07:36.003 --> 01:07:36.813 Rupert Isaacson: I couldn't agree more. 01:07:36.823 --> 01:07:41.043 The, as you know, Horse Boys entirely really the product of an 01:07:41.453 --> 01:07:43.133 interview that I had with Temp- Dr. 01:07:43.133 --> 01:07:46.523 Temple Grandin, who is autistic, saying, "How does my son become you?" 01:07:46.933 --> 01:07:48.473 Her telling me some things to do. 01:07:48.503 --> 01:07:49.343 I di- I did 'em. 01:07:49.833 --> 01:07:50.653 They worked. 01:07:50.693 --> 01:07:53.913 Then we, we needed to find out why they worked, so we went to neuroscientists, 01:07:53.943 --> 01:07:56.943 they explained, and then we realized, oh, we can replicate this. 01:07:57.373 --> 01:08:02.733 And then Rowan himself, my son, ended up on a panel for our mutual friend and 01:08:02.733 --> 01:08:07.553 colleague, Alex Northover, up in, who runs Making Momentum up in Cheshire, in the 01:08:07.553 --> 01:08:13.643 northwest of the UK, who was at that time doing her PhD at Manchester Metropolitan 01:08:13.643 --> 01:08:15.253 University and has just become Dr. 01:08:15.253 --> 01:08:17.223 Northover now, so all hail Dr. 01:08:17.223 --> 01:08:17.593 Alex. 01:08:18.023 --> 01:08:23.553 I- she got Rowan to be part of a panel of autistic people talking about how 01:08:23.763 --> 01:08:28.073 equine therapies could be better from an au- autism perspective, which is 01:08:28.973 --> 01:08:32.553 what everyone should have been doing from

the get-go, but, you know, okay, 01:08:32.943 --> 01:08:34.663 bre- best practice is catching up now. 01:08:35.103 --> 01:08:39.823 W- were there s- what have you seen, things that you had your attention brought 01:08:39.843 --> 01:08:44.713 to that, where you made changes or where you said, "Okay, let's adapt our program," 01:08:44.973 --> 01:08:48.653 because people are asking for this, or people are saying this, or people are, 01:08:49.183 --> 01:08:51.153 you know, expressing a desire for this. 01:08:51.153 --> 01:08:53.893 W- ca- can you talk, give us a few examples of, of how you 01:08:53.893 --> 01:08:55.053 shaped your practice this way? 01:08:55.453 --> 01:08:58.813 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I guess my biggest example would be, you know, when I did 01:08:59.083 --> 01:09:04.833 my, my master's research, my dissertation for my master's degree was where I, I took 01:09:05.243 --> 01:09:10.133 three, two or three years of our feedback from the students and analyzed it, and 01:09:10.133 --> 01:09:13.843 went through it all and worked out what it was that was working for the students. 01:09:13.853 --> 01:09:16.453 And then we also interviewed students as part of that as well. 01:09:16.803 --> 01:09:23.095 So that was my biggest piece of research around- The voice of the 01:09:23.095 --> 01:09:26.645 people we're working with, and really trying to understand what it was 01:09:26.675 --> 01:09:31.095 that they really needed and what they benefited from, what worked for them. 01:09:31.415 --> 01:09:35.655 And we found, you know, very much that it's about being able to trust 01:09:35.655 --> 01:09:39.965 the right people, being able to make sure that their individual needs are 01:09:39.985 --> 01:09:41.765 met and that they feel listened to. 01:09:41.765 --> 01:09:43.345 And I think that was a really big thing. 01:09:43.355 --> 01:09:47.075 It's like, you know, they, they want to feel that they're, they're listened 01:09:47.085 --> 01:09:48.745 to and that their voices are heard. 01:09:49.055 --> 01:09:52.095 And I think a lot of provision can be shaped by people. 01:09:52.115 --> 01:09:55.005 This is what people need, so we're gonna shape this provision around that. 01:09:55.335 --> 01:09:59.285 But are we really listening to, to what the young people are saying, 01:09:59.285 --> 01:10:00.975 to what the participants are saying? 01:10:01.245 --> 01:10:04.545 So I think that feedback process for me, putting those sheets in place 01:10:04.545 --> 01:10:07.165 and then really sitting down and analyzing it, and then interviewing 01:10:07.165 --> 01:10:11.475 students, especially when it comes to why they disengage from education. 01:10:11.475 --> 01:10:15.405 And I think a lot of the feedback we got was because they actually 01:10:15.405 --> 01:10:17.305 found education traumatic. 01:10:17.665 --> 01:10:21.885 So, and we know that young teenage brains, when they're in the state of trauma, 01:10:21.885 --> 01:10:24.645 that can have a, a, a lifelong impact. 01:10:24.765 --> 01:10:28.745 You know, from a neuroscience perspective, you know, when you're still developing, 01:10:28.755 --> 01:10:32.215 your brain is still developing and you're experiencing trauma at that time, that 01:10:32.215 --> 01:10:33.925 is gonna have a long-lasting impact. 01:10:34.415 --> 01:10:38.225 So often when students are getting to alternative provisions, 01:10:38.225 --> 01:10:41.635 they're already, they've already experienced educational trauma. 01:10:42.155 --> 01:10:45.045 So how do we, how do we change that? 01:10:45.055 --> 01:10:49.745 How do we make just being in education, how do we take the trauma away? 01:10:49.755 --> 01:10:51.505 You know, that's, that's a huge thing. 01:10:51.785 --> 01:10:56.075 And, you know, I think that was a really big learning for me, is like, you know, 01:10:56.125 --> 01:11:01.455 how, how do we make our environment so that it doesn't cause any trauma, 01:11:01.455 --> 01:11:04.965 so that it addresses the trauma that's already been caused and enables young 01:11:04.965 --> 01:11:10.345 people to trust people enough to allow them to help them learn again? 01:11:10.835 --> 01:11:14.685 You know, it's such a huge part of reengaging young people into 01:11:14.695 --> 01:11:16.605 learning, is building that trust. 01:11:16.885 --> 01:11:19.805 And I think sometimes people are very focused on the academic. 01:11:19.805 --> 01:11:21.545 What can we get these young people to achieve? 01:11:21.575 --> 01:11:23.415 Well, if they don't trust the people they're working with or 01:11:23.415 --> 01:11:25.695 they don't trust the environment, they're not gonna achieve anything. 01:11:26.075 --> 01:11:28.365 So it's building that trust initially, I think, is… 01:11:28.955 --> 01:11:31.485 You know, that's been our biggest learning really. 01:11:32.185 --> 01:11:32.595 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:11:33.225 --> 01:11:34.445 Let's have some examples. 01:11:34.635 --> 01:11:37.755 Let's say you're talking to someone who's 22 years old. 01:11:37.755 --> 01:11:38.145 They're about to… 01:11:38.335 --> 01:11:41.965 They've just gotten their BHS grade three, level three, whatever. 01:11:42.135 --> 01:11:48.029 They're about to go into equine-assisted stuff What's 01:11:48.029 --> 01:11:53.999 your advice for how to build this relationship, this type of environment? 01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:58.999 H- what's your advice for how to create non-traumatic education? 01:12:00.059 --> 01:12:03.039 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I'd say first of all is, you know, for us 01:12:03.039 --> 01:12:04.239 it's about being person-centered. 01:12:04.239 --> 01:12:06.779 So it's about making sure that you're really listening to the needs of each 01:12:06.779 --> 01:12:11.399 individual and, and meeting it, and not having your own expectations of what you 01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:14.239 want them to achieve drive the process. 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:15.369 It needs… 01:12:15.509 --> 01:12:18.459 You need to set them up for a

success in a way that's gonna work for 01:12:18.459 --> 01:12:21.829 them, not have your own ego and ex- 01:12:21.829 --> 01:12:22.489 Rupert Isaacson: Right, but how? 01:12:23.459 --> 01:12:23.599 Nicola Hepburn: Specific. 01:12:23.599 --> 01:12:24.829 Well, okay. 01:12:24.829 --> 01:12:28.189 Well, y- just, you know, really listen to them and what hasn't 01:12:28.189 --> 01:12:29.639 worked for them in the past. 01:12:29.819 --> 01:12:32.379 Because, I mean, a- it's very hard to give a, You know, because 01:12:32.379 --> 01:12:33.719 every individual is different. 01:12:33.729 --> 01:12:34.009 So- Right. 01:12:34.059 --> 01:12:35.759 Rupert Isaacson: But would you, would you have a specific set of 01:12:35.759 --> 01:12:39.229 conversations, for example- Yeah … with a new intake around this subject? 01:12:39.769 --> 01:12:40.689 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, absolutely. 01:12:40.689 --> 01:12:44.789 You know, you know, just speaking to them about what hasn't worked and 01:12:44.789 --> 01:12:49.279 what they, what they found difficult in, in other provisions, and what 01:12:49.729 --> 01:12:52.029 they find does work for them. 01:12:52.029 --> 01:12:53.819 And often speaking to parents as well, you know. 01:12:53.819 --> 01:12:56.539 And I think this is something that, that you really talked about a lot 01:12:56.539 --> 01:12:59.539 when I first started doing Horse Boy, was that the parents are the experts. 01:12:59.769 --> 01:12:59.989 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:13:00.459 --> 01:13:02.889 Nicola Hepburn: And so speaking to them about, you know… 01:13:03.409 --> 01:13:06.129 'Cause it may be that some of the young people find they 01:13:06.129 --> 01:13:07.709 don't want to talk about it. 01:13:07.719 --> 01:13:10.049 They can even find talking about it really distressing. 01:13:10.049 --> 01:13:10.629 So speak- 01:13:10.639 --> 01:13:11.189 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm 01:13:11.189 --> 01:13:14.719 … Nicola Hepburn: you know, take a wider environmental look at the whole situation. 01:13:14.999 --> 01:13:16.069 You know, what's g- happening at home? 01:13:16.379 --> 01:13:18.429 You know, have they got… 01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:20.799 I- is, is there a secure home life? 01:13:20.839 --> 01:13:23.019 Is there other people to support them? 01:13:23.019 --> 01:13:24.639 Do they have issues with siblings? 01:13:24.639 --> 01:13:30.099 You know, there can be a whole big environmental impact from their lives 01:13:30.099 --> 01:13:33.049 that isn't just about education. 01:13:33.059 --> 01:13:35.409 You know, it's about looking at the individual, looking at the bigger 01:13:35.409 --> 01:13:39.359 picture, and really understanding that person and, and their needs. 01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:42.319 And they might not know what will work for them as well. 01:13:42.739 --> 01:13:45.879 So it can be a case of sometimes trying something, and if that doesn't 01:13:45.879 --> 01:13:47.159 work, then try something else. 01:13:47.169 --> 01:13:49.629 But you have to listen to them. 01:13:49.629 --> 01:13:52.759 Because if, if you feel, if they feel that you're forcing them into 01:13:52.759 --> 01:13:56.319 something that they don't want to do, and when they come to you… 01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:59.709 You know, for example, a good example that we have is if somebody's really adamant 01:13:59.709 --> 01:14:02.419 they want to go home, we will say, "Okay. 01:14:02.929 --> 01:14:03.349 That's fine. 01:14:03.349 --> 01:14:04.929 If you really don't wanna be here today and you really 01:14:04.929 --> 01:14:06.639 wanna go home, that's fine." 01:14:07.469 --> 01:14:08.369 And we'll let them go home. 01:14:08.369 --> 01:14:10.489 And then they might be like, "Oh, well, I was expecting a battle. 01:14:10.489 --> 01:14:12.629 I was expecting you to say that I have to stay." 01:14:13.329 --> 01:14:17.299 And then the next time- You know, they say, "Oh, I really wanna go home." 01:14:17.299 --> 01:14:19.409 You say, "Well, do you, you know, do you really wanna go home or 01:14:19.459 --> 01:14:22.559 could you maybe stay for another hour, and then we have a think about 01:14:22.629 --> 01:14:23.919 how you're feeling after that?" 01:14:23.919 --> 01:14:26.559 But if they don't trust you that if they really wanna go, 01:14:26.729 --> 01:14:27.679 you're not gonna let them go- 01:14:28.089 --> 01:14:28.559 Rupert Isaacson: Mm 01:14:28.909 --> 01:14:30.909 … Nicola Hepburn: you know, they can disengage really easily, and then 01:14:30.909 --> 01:14:33.809 they won't come back 'cause they feel, "Oh, well if I really, really need 01:14:33.809 --> 01:14:35.179 to leave, they're not gonna let me." 01:14:35.619 --> 01:14:39.579 So it's about building that trust where the young person feels that if 01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:42.749 you say, "Yeah, okay, we'll do another hour, but then if that, if you really 01:14:42.749 --> 01:14:45.579 wanna go home after an hour, you can," that you're gonna keep your word, and 01:14:45.579 --> 01:14:48.029 that you're not gonna force them to stay when, when they don't want to. 01:14:48.719 --> 01:14:48.979 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:14:48.979 --> 01:14:53.449 This is, this is an interesting one, because I think we're all told when we 01:14:54.039 --> 01:14:58.649 are supposed to be the practitioner, we're all told that we must, we're 01:14:58.649 --> 01:15:03.639 supposed to keep some sort of level of control, and of course, that's impossible. 01:15:04.289 --> 01:15:08.129 And of course, with non-verbal autism, it's relatively s- 01:15:08.139 --> 01:15:15.209 straightforward because the feedback is so uncompromisingly direct. 01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:18.489 It's like, you know, someone throws a tantrum, takes off all their clothes, has 01:15:18.489 --> 01:15:22.739 a shit, you know, runs to the car, tries to dive off the horse, whatever it is. 01:15:23.049 --> 01:15:28.379 It's like, noted loud and clear we'll follow that, and then as you 01:15:28.379 --> 01:15:34.609 say, as one follows it, a

trust is built where you look up three months 01:15:34.609 --> 01:15:39.349 later and you're spending, you know, three hours together doing things. 01:15:39.589 --> 01:15:44.439 But if they don't feel that you won't listen in those early stages, even when 01:15:44.439 --> 01:15:48.159 what they're doing se- you know, might seem completely bonkers and unreasonable 01:15:48.549 --> 01:15:52.749 you never get to that point where things do become really reasonable and so. 01:15:52.989 --> 01:15:58.669 But this is much, much harder when one's dealing with the verbal 01:15:58.669 --> 01:16:04.479 neurodiverse, because, you know, then there's a higher degree of cognition. 01:16:04.489 --> 01:16:05.579 People know how to manipulate. 01:16:05.579 --> 01:16:07.649 People know how to push your buttons. 01:16:07.689 --> 01:16:12.949 People know how to fight the old battles with the person that they 01:16:12.949 --> 01:16:15.529 don't like from their school, and then project that onto you. 01:16:16.399 --> 01:16:21.569 And that's a tough position to find yourself in because you're not as- 01:16:23.931 --> 01:16:26.451 Well, you know, with, say, a non-verbal person, it's… 01:16:27.811 --> 01:16:35.641 I, I think, I wouldn't say easier, but it's more straightforward that if we push 01:16:35.641 --> 01:16:37.371 in this direction, it will just backfire. 01:16:37.901 --> 01:16:42.451 And that there's a certain kind of, hopefully, latitude in saying, 01:16:42.451 --> 01:16:46.111 "Well, okay, you know, let's take a risk to try to follow. 01:16:46.701 --> 01:16:48.921 And in our experience it seems to have worked, so let's do it." 01:16:49.151 --> 01:16:53.721 Much, much harder when one's dealing with people who appear to be coming 01:16:53.721 --> 01:16:57.291 from a maybe neurodiverse, but at the same time more neurotypical than, say, 01:16:57.351 --> 01:16:59.981 where my son was when he was four. 01:17:00.561 --> 01:17:03.331 But it's really the same process, isn't it, that you've just described, 01:17:03.411 --> 01:17:07.301 of saying, "Okay, if you wanna leave the premises, it's okay. 01:17:07.311 --> 01:17:10.791 If you wanna disengage, that's all right." 01:17:11.231 --> 01:17:14.841 And then at the same time, as you also said, following their interests 01:17:15.241 --> 01:17:19.271 so that the place actually becomes so interesting that they kinda wanna stay. 01:17:19.661 --> 01:17:21.721 But it's their choice, not there. 01:17:22.511 --> 01:17:23.691 Not a directive. 01:17:24.471 --> 01:17:24.541 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:17:25.051 --> 01:17:28.061 Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, 01:17:28.461 --> 01:17:33.361 I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little 01:17:33.361 --> 01:17:35.611 bit about the old master system. 01:17:36.076 --> 01:17:37.386 of dressage training. 01:17:37.426 --> 01:17:45.996 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:17:46.066

--> 01:17:52.346 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:17:52.356 --> 01:17:58.876 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:17:58.926 --> 01:18:01.696 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:18:01.756 --> 01:18:02.496 Intrigued? 01:18:02.696 --> 01:18:03.556 Like to know more? 01:18:04.426 --> 01:18:07.256 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:18:08.956 --> 01:18:10.646 Check out the free introduction course. 01:18:11.206 --> 01:18:11.726 Take it from there. 01:18:12.230 --> 01:18:18.370 You did say earlier that you maybe in the early days, perhaps even now to 01:18:18.370 --> 01:18:23.520 some degree, were trying to create the provision that you would have needed 01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:26.130 when you were a teenage homeless person. 01:18:26.690 --> 01:18:27.830 Talk to us about that. 01:18:27.850 --> 01:18:29.850 How did you become a teenage homeless person? 01:18:30.140 --> 01:18:32.490 This is really useful, I think, for people to know. 01:18:33.030 --> 01:18:39.180 And how did you get out of it, and how does it affect your practice, 01:18:39.240 --> 01:18:42.300 not just in obviously wanting to create safe spaces, but how does it, 01:18:42.370 --> 01:18:44.060 how does it affect your practice? 01:18:44.110 --> 01:18:48.590 Has it creatively affect your practice in terms of actually, 01:18:48.590 --> 01:18:50.170 yes, being that provision? 01:18:50.170 --> 01:18:52.860 'Cause I, I know in many ways you are actually that provision, 01:18:53.030 --> 01:18:53.980 which you would have needed. 01:18:54.320 --> 01:18:55.640 H- how did it happen? 01:18:55.640 --> 01:18:56.770 How did you survive it? 01:18:57.740 --> 01:19:00.810 And yeah, h- how has it informed what you do? 01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:02.680 Nicola Hepburn: Okay. 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:05.680 Well, I mean, I, I was homeless when I was 17. 01:19:06.340 --> 01:19:08.460 It wasn't, you know, a massively dramatic story. 01:19:08.460 --> 01:19:10.770 I, you know, I kind of fell out with my mom and got kicked out 01:19:10.770 --> 01:19:13.390 the house and, you know, my mom and I had a difficult relationship 01:19:13.390 --> 01:19:15.070 following my parents' divorce. 01:19:15.730 --> 01:19:19.630 And my sister had gone off to, to university, and it was just 01:19:19.630 --> 01:19:22.980 me and my mom, and she was going through some difficult things. 01:19:22.980 --> 01:19:25.720 And as, as an adult, you can look back now and, you know, I can 01:19:25.720 --> 01:19:28.160 understand more that she was going through some difficult times, and 01:19:28.160 --> 01:19:29.580 her and I just didn't see eye to eye. 01:19:29.580 --> 01:19:30.780 We really didn't get on. 01:19:31.240 --> 01:19:36.700 And it resulted in me you know, being asked to leave the house when I was 17. 01:19:36.740 --> 01:19:41.740 And, you know, I was kind of staying on people's sofas and going from place 01:19:41.740 --> 01:19:45.580 to place, and then I found I found a place in a, in a homeless hostel. 01:19:45.630 --> 01:19:49.030 But it was quite a culture shock for me, because I'd come from 01:19:49.030 --> 01:19:52.720 this kind of Cotswold upbringing, private schools, ponies. 01:19:52.720 --> 01:19:57.010 You know, we, we weren't like, you know, we weren't massively wealthy or anything, 01:19:57.010 --> 01:20:02.180 but it was a very nice upbringing and it was very sheltered, I guess, from reality. 01:20:02.180 --> 01:20:05.690 And then I move into a homeless hostel in a big town, and the first week 01:20:05.690 --> 01:20:08.090 I was there, there was a dead body found in the park around the corner. 01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:12.990 You know, and it was quite a, it was quite a leap from, from where I'd been. 01:20:12.990 --> 01:20:14.880 But one of the things that I found when I moved into the 01:20:14.880 --> 01:20:16.080 hostel, there were 20 girls there. 01:20:16.190 --> 01:20:20.700 It was run by a kind of Christian housing association at the time, 01:20:20.700 --> 01:20:26.160 and a lot of the girls in there had much different stories to mine, much 01:20:26.160 --> 01:20:29.600 different upbringings to mine, and it actually made me realize how lucky I 01:20:29.600 --> 01:20:31.330 was at that time because there were… 01:20:31.670 --> 01:20:35.360 You know, I heard some very, harrowing stories when I was there from other 01:20:35.360 --> 01:20:39.630 young people, you know, people who've been abused by members of 01:20:39.630 --> 01:20:43.100 their family or, you know, just come from these horrendous situations. 01:20:43.440 --> 01:20:47.490 And I think it really made me take stock and go, "Actually, I've been quite lucky." 01:20:47.490 --> 01:20:48.990 You know, I've just fallen out with my mum. 01:20:49.000 --> 01:20:52.280 This isn't, you know, these young peop- these other women have been through a lot. 01:20:52.280 --> 01:20:56.950 But it was a real kind of sense of everyone supporting each 01:20:56.950 --> 01:20:58.500 other within, within the hostels. 01:20:58.500 --> 01:21:00.820 None of us had any money and we were all, you know, 01:21:02.830 --> 01:21:04.470 we were all in this sort of weird position where we, we were all looking for places 01:21:04.470 --> 01:21:06.860 to live and we all helped each other out. 01:21:07.010 --> 01:21:10.010 And it was, you know, it was quite a, quite an experience. 01:21:10.040 --> 01:21:14.160 And I think when I, when I left there and I, you know, I did eventually leave 01:21:14.160 --> 01:21:17.800 there and managed to find a, a flat and I st- I went, put myself back to college. 01:21:17.800 --> 01:21:23.010 And I just kind of realized actually, you know, I am really 01:21:23.010 --> 01:21:26.870 lucky and I, I, I, I could be in a much worse position than I am. 01:21:26.970 --> 01:21:31.020 And it really motivated me to want to do something more with my life. 01:21:31.020 --> 01:21:34.040 And it took, you know, it took me a

few years really to get back on my feet. 01:21:34.430 --> 01:21:37.870 You know, I did various art courses, which never came to anything. 01:21:37.870 --> 01:21:43.420 And then I eventually started working for Blockbuster Video, 01:21:43.930 --> 01:21:46.980 and I was the store manager for Blockbuster for about six years. 01:21:47.020 --> 01:21:50.140 And I started a business degree as well, which I, again, I didn't finish. 01:21:50.140 --> 01:21:51.040 I didn't enjoy it. 01:21:51.490 --> 01:21:54.620 So I worked for Blockbuster for about six years, and it was that I found a 01:21:54.620 --> 01:21:59.820 manager who actually believed in me, and I got my first managerial role there. 01:21:59.890 --> 01:22:03.270 So she believed in me enough to give me the store manager job, the area manager. 01:22:04.020 --> 01:22:07.570 And I think what really struck me about that was up to that point, when 01:22:07.570 --> 01:22:11.840 you're a homeless teenager, nobody really takes any notice of you. 01:22:11.850 --> 01:22:15.810 So I'd gone from kind of private school, grammar school, where everyone's 01:22:15.810 --> 01:22:19.140 told you that you can be anything you want to be if you work really hard. 01:22:19.560 --> 01:22:21.210 Then I found myself in a homeless hostel. 01:22:21.260 --> 01:22:24.050 I dropped out my A levels, found myself in a homeless hostel where I was being 01:22:24.050 --> 01:22:26.960 told that I needed to go and get a job, and I'd probably never amount to anything, 01:22:26.960 --> 01:22:28.460 and that I was a bit of a waste of space. 01:22:28.800 --> 01:22:29.330 So, and then- 01:22:29.410 --> 01:22:29.850 Rupert Isaacson: Who told you that? 01:22:30.320 --> 01:22:30.900 Who, who told you 01:22:32.210 --> 01:22:32.831 Nicola Hepburn: that you were a waste of space? 01:22:32.831 --> 01:22:32.990 Oh, various people. 01:22:32.990 --> 01:22:33.520 I mean, the, 01:22:33.580 --> 01:22:36.030 Rupert Isaacson: Not the people c- running the hostel surely, or, or were they? 01:22:36.030 --> 01:22:36.140 The people in the 01:22:36.410 --> 01:22:40.910 Nicola Hepburn: hostel were very, They were very kind of, I don't 01:22:40.910 --> 01:22:42.190 know how to say it politely. 01:22:42.940 --> 01:22:43.130 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:22:43.480 --> 01:22:44.400 Say it, say it how you wanna say it. 01:22:44.400 --> 01:22:44.650 The, the 01:22:45.200 --> 01:22:48.310 Nicola Hepburn: people running the hostel were very judgmental and- Okay … kind 01:22:48.310 --> 01:22:52.670 of preachy, and they felt that they were helping shape these delinquent 01:22:52.700 --> 01:22:54.250 young women into something better. 01:22:54.250 --> 01:22:55.860 That's how it kind of felt. 01:22:56.110 --> 01:22:58.360 But, you know, this is going back to the '90s, you know? 01:22:58.540 --> 01:22:58.660 Yeah. 01:22:58.950 --> 01:22:59.590 So very different. 01:22:59.590 --> 01:23:02.690 It was a very different time, you know, 'cause I think children 01:23:02.730 --> 01:23:03.950 are safeguarded much more now. 01:23:03.950 --> 01:23:07.760 When you're 17, you're not really classed as an adult now, whereas I felt like I 01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:09.510 was treated very much like an adult then. 01:23:09.940 --> 01:23:13.970 And you know, you're kind of told, "Oh, well, you need to buck y- buck yourself 01:23:13.970 --> 01:23:17.426 up," and you know, "Improve yourself," and, you know, you, you're kind of… 01:23:17.426 --> 01:23:20.340 You, you have this sense of judgment that you're homeless because of 01:23:20.340 --> 01:23:24.090 something that is your fault and you know, that you need to do better. 01:23:24.670 --> 01:23:27.330 And I, you know, and at that point I was, I was involved with 01:23:27.330 --> 01:23:30.030 a training organization and they were trying to get me to take, 01:23:30.040 --> 01:23:32.914 like- Any old job, an admin job. 01:23:32.924 --> 01:23:35.154 But I wasn't really interested in admin at all, and it wasn't something 01:23:35.154 --> 01:23:37.264 I was very good at, but it was just, "No, this is all you can do. 01:23:37.264 --> 01:23:38.284 You need to go and do it." 01:23:38.284 --> 01:23:42.004 And there was no, there was no real … I didn't feel they were particularly 01:23:42.014 --> 01:23:43.424 interested in me as an individual. 01:23:43.484 --> 01:23:47.764 It was just I was a I was a statistic that needed to be moved into the next 01:23:47.764 --> 01:23:50.404 level of employment or whatever to 01:23:50.514 --> 01:23:51.307 You know, I don't know. 01:23:51.307 --> 01:23:54.064 It was very, I didn't feel that anyone was that particularly 01:23:54.074 --> 01:23:55.634 interested in me compared to- How long 01:23:55.634 --> 01:23:56.414 Rupert Isaacson: were you there for? 01:23:56.704 --> 01:23:57.484 … Nicola Hepburn: previously. 01:23:57.814 --> 01:24:02.380 I was in the homeless hostel for probably It was under a year. 01:24:02.790 --> 01:24:06.060 I wasn't there for, you know, a very long time. 01:24:06.120 --> 01:24:09.340 And I did manage to find myself a flat and, and move out of there. 01:24:09.870 --> 01:24:12.980 But yeah, I mean, it was a, it was a difficult time obviously. 01:24:12.980 --> 01:24:15.620 I spent my 18th birthday there, which wasn't ideal. 01:24:16.030 --> 01:24:16.292 You know- How 01:24:16.292 --> 01:24:17.130 Rupert Isaacson: did you find a place? 01:24:17.130 --> 01:24:18.090 How did you luck into it? 01:24:18.130 --> 01:24:21.200 Because you know, as judgemental as it might have been, worse things would 01:24:21.200 --> 01:24:22.580 have happened on the street, I'm sure. 01:24:22.580 --> 01:24:23.720 Nicola Hepburn: Oh, absolutely, yeah. 01:24:23.800 --> 01:24:24.330 Rupert Isaacson: So- 01:24:24.610 --> 01:24:26.440 Nicola Hepburn: I was- Yeah … I was grateful, but it, it was 01:24:26.440 --> 01:24:27.430 an interesting experience. 01:24:27.470 --> 01:24:31.220 Well, initially I'd had a social worker who'd been, who'd been 01:24:31.220 -->

01:24:32.740 involved with the situation. 01:24:32.740 --> 01:24:35.700 But then that seemed to come to an end, and then there was a, a local 01:24:35.700 --> 01:24:39.660 charity called the Young Homeless Project that I got in touch with, and 01:24:39.660 --> 01:24:42.260 I went there, and they were the people who put me in touch with the hostel. 01:24:42.260 --> 01:24:43.090 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, okay. 01:24:43.150 --> 01:24:48.120 So you were also wise enough to know that there was a sort of chain of 01:24:49.160 --> 01:24:54.040 contact and that you could attach yourself to, to find solutions. 01:24:54.280 --> 01:24:54.520 Nicola Hepburn: Yes. 01:24:54.620 --> 01:24:56.820 Rupert Isaacson: C- you know, as you say, you, you know, you, you, you'd 01:24:56.820 --> 01:24:58.760 come from a, an educated background. 01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:00.760 You were taught to some degree how to problem solve. 01:25:00.770 --> 01:25:00.790 Yeah. 01:25:01.290 --> 01:25:03.460 Did you end up sleeping rough for any of it? 01:25:03.530 --> 01:25:06.270 And if so, how did you survive that? 01:25:06.280 --> 01:25:10.230 Because people must have attempted to prey on you when, when that happened. 01:25:10.930 --> 01:25:14.210 Nicola Hepburn: It wasn't as much sleeping rough as sofa surfing at friends' houses. 01:25:14.260 --> 01:25:14.380 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:25:15.180 --> 01:25:18.190 Nicola Hepburn: That was kind of difficult because I was, obviously, I 01:25:18.190 --> 01:25:19.630 was very vulnerable at that point- Mm-hmm 01:25:19.960 --> 01:25:20.220 … Rupert Isaacson: and 01:25:20.400 --> 01:25:23.720 Nicola Hepburn: very reliant on the kindness of others, and that 01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:25.810 kindness only goes so far, I think. 01:25:25.850 --> 01:25:28.110 You know, once you're friends with somebody and you've been sleeping at their 01:25:28.110 --> 01:25:31.270 house for two weeks, their parents are a bit like, "Well-" Sure … you know. 01:25:31.270 --> 01:25:33.010 And I, I remember one social services ask, actually asking one of my 01:25:36.250 --> 01:25:38.610 friend's parents if they'd take me in, and they were just like, 01:25:38.610 --> 01:25:40.930 "Well, we don't have the room and we can't afford it," you know? 01:25:41.290 --> 01:25:45.340 So you know, it's that feeling, I felt like a bit of a burden on everybody 01:25:45.380 --> 01:25:48.630 really, and that was why in the end I decided that I had to find somewhere 01:25:48.630 --> 01:25:52.390 else to go because it was you know, I was really relying on the kindness of others. 01:25:52.390 --> 01:25:52.620 Mm. 01:25:52.620 --> 01:25:55.640 And there'd be times when somebody, you know, would say, "Yeah, you 01:25:55.640 --> 01:25:56.630 can come and stay at my house." 01:25:56.640 --> 01:25:59.880 And then, you know, maybe their parents would be like, "Who's this 01:25:59.880 --> 01:26:00.610 strange girl you've brought home? 01:26:00.610 --> 01:26:02.070 Where does she live? 01:26:02.070 --> 01:26:02.620 Who is she? 01:26:02.620 --> 01:26:03.660 No, she can't stay. 01:26:03.660 --> 01:26:04.280 She needs to go." 01:26:04.280 --> 01:26:06.500 And then I'd have to find somewhere else to stay. 01:26:06.500 --> 01:26:10.850 So yeah, it w- it was, it was very much I, you know, I was just trying 01:26:10.850 --> 01:26:12.290 to find places that were safe. 01:26:12.300 --> 01:26:13.010 Mm-hmm. 01:26:13.070 --> 01:26:15.200 Yeah, I did feel very vulnerable at that time. 01:26:15.300 --> 01:26:17.160 And I think when I was in the hostel I was very vulnerable because I 01:26:17.160 --> 01:26:17.650 think a lot of local people knew that 01:26:20.280 --> 01:26:23.760 was a hostel full of homeless girls, you know? 01:26:24.200 --> 01:26:29.758 So- You know, without going into too much detail, I think certain, certain people 01:26:29.758 --> 01:26:36.968 would be interested in a, a hostel full of young girls who had no support systems. 01:26:36.968 --> 01:26:38.408 You know, they were all very vulnerable. 01:26:38.688 --> 01:26:38.978 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:26:39.078 --> 01:26:42.818 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, you know, and I think, But like I say, I, I definitely 01:26:42.818 --> 01:26:47.958 realized when I got into the hostel that I'd been very lucky compared to 01:26:47.958 --> 01:26:51.198 some other young people who'd been through some really horrendous things. 01:26:51.828 --> 01:26:54.698 Rupert Isaacson: It's encouraging to me to hear that when you went in there 01:26:54.748 --> 01:27:00.118 and there were girls from rougher backgrounds that they didn't clique 01:27:00.118 --> 01:27:04.428 up against you because you were a nice girl sort of thing from a, a nice home 01:27:04.428 --> 01:27:08.128 who'd fallen into, you know, hard times. 01:27:08.588 --> 01:27:11.988 'Cause as you know, the class system in English, in England can be unforgiving, 01:27:12.118 --> 01:27:14.528 you know, in every direction. 01:27:15.148 --> 01:27:21.872 Why do you think that- It turned out so supportive and so sisterly. 01:27:21.872 --> 01:27:21.902 Well, 01:27:23.192 --> 01:27:26.672 Nicola Hepburn: I think it, it just came down to the fact that we all were 01:27:26.672 --> 01:27:32.642 in the same boat, and we all got the each other, you know, we all understood. 01:27:32.662 --> 01:27:33.802 None of us wanted to be there. 01:27:34.232 --> 01:27:35.602 It wasn't our, you know, none of us were like- 01:27:35.602 --> 01:27:37.802 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but sometimes, sometimes those, those situations 01:27:37.802 --> 01:27:39.232 can be quite dog-eat-dog as well. 01:27:39.452 --> 01:27:39.472 Yeah. 01:27:39.482 --> 01:27:41.392 Not necessarily people having each other's backs. 01:27:41.402 --> 01:27:44.132 So what, what do you think was the dynamic there that- 01:27:45.152 --> 01:27:46.042 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I just think we all- 01:27:46.142 --> 01:27:46.562 … Rupert Isaacson: made it so positive? 01:27:46.962 --> 01:27:49.832 Nicola Hepburn: You know, we

all wanted each other to be okay. 01:27:49.832 --> 01:27:52.482 And I, I just think- Mm … I mean, maybe it would've been different if it had been 01:27:52.482 --> 01:27:54.022 a different group of girls, I don't know. 01:27:54.372 --> 01:27:57.002 I just think when I was there, they were a group of us, and we all 01:27:57.002 --> 01:27:58.532 used to go out together as well. 01:27:58.532 --> 01:28:02.822 You know, we'd go out and hang out together, and it was, it was our 01:28:02.822 --> 01:28:05.482 social network- Mm … time as well. 01:28:05.482 --> 01:28:09.372 And I think we all made sure that we all got home okay, you know, 01:28:09.562 --> 01:28:12.442 'cause I think if you, if you're going out as a group of girls in a, 01:28:12.442 --> 01:28:14.732 in a town as well, you know, the… 01:28:14.772 --> 01:28:17.752 I think there was just this sense of us needing to look after each other. 01:28:17.752 --> 01:28:19.212 I don't really know where that came from. 01:28:19.212 --> 01:28:19.782 I can't really- Mm. 01:28:20.392 --> 01:28:21.342 I can't really answer that. 01:28:21.342 --> 01:28:23.662 But yeah, it was I think it was just the sense of we're 01:28:23.662 --> 01:28:25.092 all in this together, you know? 01:28:25.092 --> 01:28:25.712 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:28:25.762 --> 01:28:27.422 It's encouraging, though, to me, to hear that. 01:28:27.472 --> 01:28:31.422 I mean, it, it, it restores one's faith. 01:28:32.032 --> 01:28:36.002 Did you maintain touch with any of, any of those girls after you? 01:28:36.472 --> 01:28:38.202 Or did you all just disappear, fragment? 01:28:38.202 --> 01:28:38.742 Nicola Hepburn: No. 01:28:38.742 --> 01:28:39.322 No, we all… 01:28:39.332 --> 01:28:41.442 No, I didn't keep in touch with anybody from that. 01:28:41.442 --> 01:28:44.832 I still kept in touch with some people who I made friends with later- Mm … after 01:28:44.832 --> 01:28:47.622 I moved out, but no, not, not the group of girls that were in there. 01:28:48.042 --> 01:28:51.002 No, I think we all just very much went, went our separate ways. 01:28:51.382 --> 01:28:53.862 So- Yeah … you know, I've got no idea what any of them are doing now. 01:28:53.862 --> 01:28:55.792 That would be quite interesting to know. 01:28:55.892 --> 01:28:59.902 But, but yeah, it was, it was, you know, you say even though I was a 01:28:59.902 --> 01:29:03.652 homeless teenager, it, and it was a difficult time, it wasn't like 01:29:05.092 --> 01:29:07.812 sleeping rough on the streets, you know, it wasn't that kind of thing. 01:29:07.922 --> 01:29:10.332 But the hostel was a very, you know, an interesting place. 01:29:10.332 --> 01:29:14.022 And then I think when I, when I left there, you know, I, I really did 01:29:14.112 --> 01:29:15.372 want to make something of myself. 01:29:15.382 --> 01:29:18.432 And like I say, I ended up, you know, working at Blockbusters, and then I had 01:29:18.462 --> 01:29:20.252 the opportunity to become a manager. 01:29:20.352 --> 01:29:24.032 And it was that one person who really believed in me and saw something in me 01:29:24.042 --> 01:29:28.182 and gave me an opportunity, and I'm still very thankful to her because I think she 01:29:28.182 --> 01:29:33.102 was somebody who really mentored me and saw something in me and, and enabled me to 01:29:33.102 --> 01:29:37.420 have a career where- I wasn't, you know, I wasn't just a shop assistant anymore. 01:29:37.420 --> 01:29:40.090 Now I was a manager, and then I was managing multiple stores, and 01:29:40.090 --> 01:29:43.020 it gave me confidence, and it gave me back- Mm … my confidence in 01:29:43.020 --> 01:29:44.900 myself and my ability to achieve. 01:29:45.490 --> 01:29:49.350 And then it was, you know, kind of from that role, you know, that I 01:29:49.350 --> 01:29:52.400 went on then to find out about equine facilitated learning, and I was 01:29:52.400 --> 01:29:55.570 able to buy my first horse through having a management job, you know? 01:29:55.570 --> 01:30:00.040 And if I think about where I was at 17, in a homeless hostel, to then 01:30:00.040 --> 01:30:03.230 being in my 20s, having a management job, and being able to buy myself 01:30:03.230 --> 01:30:06.616 a horse, you know, that 17-year-old would have dreamed of that, you know? 01:30:06.616 --> 01:30:06.750 And it… 01:30:06.750 --> 01:30:11.310 That being around horses again because it was such a safe space for me as a child. 01:30:11.360 --> 01:30:14.960 So I think that was a real focus for me, was getting a horse, having 01:30:14.960 --> 01:30:16.850 that, having that feeling again. 01:30:16.850 --> 01:30:19.060 And then that led me back into this, you know? 01:30:19.060 --> 01:30:22.700 And so, you know, it was then that I kind of quit my job and went 01:30:22.700 --> 01:30:25.790 back to university and did a degree and decided to start the business. 01:30:26.240 --> 01:30:29.740 So it was yeah, it was very much a passion of mine to 01:30:29.740 --> 01:30:31.870 always aspire to having a horse. 01:30:31.870 --> 01:30:33.010 That was always my… 01:30:33.310 --> 01:30:37.430 one of my driving things, was if I n- if I can, if I can afford a horse, I know I've, 01:30:37.480 --> 01:30:38.670 I've made it kind of thing, you know? 01:30:40.190 --> 01:30:40.490 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:30:40.490 --> 01:30:42.630 And, and to, to a large degree, I'd say that's true, right? 01:30:42.660 --> 01:30:45.190 Because, well, for all the obvious reasons. 01:30:45.610 --> 01:30:48.570 It's so interesting to listen to that trajectory. 01:30:49.240 --> 01:30:53.110 W- what, what it sounds to me like a little bit, you know, when you listen, 01:30:53.620 --> 01:30:57.420 think about in terms of archetypes and hero's journeys, know y- you're 01:30:57.520 --> 01:31:01.000 on a very definite hero's journey at that point, and, or heroine's journey. 01:31:01.510 --> 01:31:06.250 And w- you know, all of the aspects of the hero's journey are there, like 01:31:06.260 -->

01:31:08.570 y- you get drawn into it reluctantly. 01:31:08.570 --> 01:31:13.330 You don't, you don't wanna find yourself in the hostel, but there you are. 01:31:14.070 --> 01:31:19.990 And then there's a sort of perhaps a slightly despairing time w- where 01:31:19.990 --> 01:31:21.430 there's a sort of death of the ego. 01:31:21.480 --> 01:31:21.800 You know? 01:31:21.820 --> 01:31:24.880 It's like, well, I'm a, I'm a nice girl from an upper middle class background. 01:31:24.880 --> 01:31:27.480 I'm in the Cotswolds, and I have horses and I'm g- off to 01:31:27.480 --> 01:31:28.510 university and I'm gonna do… 01:31:29.040 --> 01:31:32.270 And then, no I've sort of lost my status. 01:31:33.110 --> 01:31:36.730 Here are these people treating me as if I'm a, a loser. 01:31:37.560 --> 01:31:40.980 And I've just gotta kinda deal with that. 01:31:41.810 --> 01:31:43.310 But I've also gotta find the tools. 01:31:43.310 --> 01:31:45.850 I've gotta find my Yoda, as Luke Skywalker. 01:31:45.850 --> 01:31:52.320 I've gotta find my way out of the White Witch's dungeon. 01:31:52.320 --> 01:31:54.920 I've got to acquire some skills here. 01:31:55.430 --> 01:32:02.374 And it's interesting that- Listening to the story, one of the skills that you 01:32:02.524 --> 01:32:10.384 definitely seem to have acquired is the ability to create community and tribe, 01:32:11.284 --> 01:32:16.074 which that's why I was intrigued, I think, by the story of the relationship between 01:32:16.074 --> 01:32:22.344 the girls in the hostel, that it wasn't hostile and competitive and coming from 01:32:22.344 --> 01:32:25.564 a sort of scarcity, "Well, if, if this girl gets something then I don't get…" 01:32:25.814 --> 01:32:28.094 That you actually all kind of had each other's backs. 01:32:28.914 --> 01:32:32.594 But that is a skill to learn because it can of course go 01:32:32.594 --> 01:32:34.134 differently in people's experiences. 01:32:34.864 --> 01:32:36.884 And of course gratitude, learning gratitude. 01:32:36.884 --> 01:32:41.664 Well, actually, yeah, I, I am able to solve problems. 01:32:41.664 --> 01:32:50.114 I am able to reap from the good things of my background, even if it's ended up here. 01:32:50.124 --> 01:32:53.344 You know, I'm, I'm lucky that a certain number of these skills 01:32:53.344 --> 01:32:54.454 have been implanted in me. 01:32:55.454 --> 01:32:56.564 How can I use them? 01:32:57.334 --> 01:33:00.364 And it is, it's an inspiring hero's journey, you know, that, and as you 01:33:00.364 --> 01:33:03.954 say, it sort of your, your, your purchase of the horse is the sort of 01:33:04.354 --> 01:33:07.314 the horse, you ride the horse, you know, either back into Narnia or out of 01:33:07.314 --> 01:33:11.824 Narnia depending on which way you think the, the White Witch is, is heading. 01:33:12.154 --> 01:33:14.514 And where Aslan happens to be currently. 01:33:16.084 --> 01:33:21.644 And now here you are absolutely giving back on this sort of institutional level. 01:33:21.964 --> 01:33:26.644 And for those people who are listening, I was just at Nikki's Place about two 01:33:26.644 --> 01:33:33.184 weeks ago and looking around at this incredible facility with these very 01:33:33.184 --> 01:33:36.764 dedicated people, and there's the wakeboard lakes over there, and there 01:33:36.764 --> 01:33:39.794 are the beautiful trails where you can go and check out deer and hares. 01:33:40.244 --> 01:33:43.034 And there are the, you know, there's the arena and there's the 01:33:43.034 --> 01:33:47.274 round pen and there's Nikki, you know, Captain Nikki doing her thing 01:33:47.794 --> 01:33:51.294 steering the ship and c- commanding the ship and in a very sweet way 01:33:53.452 --> 01:33:58.332 So hats off, you know, it, it's, it's really impressive. 01:33:58.632 --> 01:34:03.362 A lot of people from horsey backgrounds don't necessarily have a story like that. 01:34:03.692 --> 01:34:09.112 And I think it's therefore tricky for them sometimes to empathize with people 01:34:09.112 --> 01:34:14.622 who are less fortunate less advantaged because it, you know, it, it can be a bit 01:34:14.622 --> 01:34:18.022 of an, as you say, a bit of a sheltering, bit of an insulating thing, as well as 01:34:18.022 --> 01:34:28.714 giving great life skills You now sort of create many young women who do get to 01:34:28.714 --> 01:34:35.164 learn these problem-solving skills through horses and education, just like you did. 01:34:35.944 --> 01:34:39.524 And now you're seeing some of them going off and entering the workforce and 01:34:40.074 --> 01:34:46.794 getting off to college and so on, which is, must make your heart feel fulfilled. 01:34:47.084 --> 01:34:48.894 What's next for you? 01:34:48.954 --> 01:34:50.714 What's, where do you want to take this? 01:34:50.714 --> 01:34:51.744 Where do you want to develop it? 01:34:51.744 --> 01:34:52.344 You're still young. 01:34:52.354 --> 01:34:57.094 You're still, you know, you could argue, at the start of things because 01:34:57.104 --> 01:35:01.604 things have reached a certain maturity. 01:35:02.044 --> 01:35:04.174 But as we know, that's always just the beginning of the next stage. 01:35:04.444 --> 01:35:06.354 W- w- where do you wanna go from here? 01:35:07.844 --> 01:35:10.894 Nicola Hepburn: Well, I think, you know, kind of extending the education 01:35:10.954 --> 01:35:11.994 program and the therapeutic work. 01:35:11.994 --> 01:35:13.524 I'm always going to want to do that. 01:35:13.624 --> 01:35:16.264 You know, but I've been thinking recently a lot about wellness work 01:35:16.264 --> 01:35:17.734 and about working with people. 01:35:18.154 --> 01:35:21.364 I think wellness is a really big thing at the moment about creating 01:35:21.364 --> 01:35:23.704 wellness opportunities for, you know- 01:35:25.044 --> 01:35:26.144 Rupert Isaacson: For yourself 'cause you're so tired. 01:35:27.604 --> 01:35:27.754 But 01:35:30.414 --> 01:35:32.434 now you can get stressed providing

wellness, yeah. 01:35:32.434 --> 01:35:32.814 Yeah. 01:35:32.814 --> 01:35:33.644 Nicola Hepburn: But I think, you know, just like wellness for, you know, 01:35:33.644 --> 01:35:34.234 maybe for women, you know, middle-aged women, I think there's a lot- Mm-hmm 01:35:35.594 --> 01:35:35.974 um, you know, there's 01:35:41.384 --> 01:35:47.324 a lot of awareness around menopause and around you know, stress and around, 01:35:47.374 --> 01:35:48.604 you know, various different things. 01:35:48.604 --> 01:35:52.624 Even grief or, you know, I'm, I'm interested in working with people who, 01:35:53.744 --> 01:35:56.734 you know, maybe a m- a family member has cancer or they have cancer, you know. 01:35:56.734 --> 01:35:59.044 I think there's a lot of other things like that that I haven't explored 01:35:59.054 --> 01:36:01.844 with the business that I'd like to look at, you know, from more of a 01:36:01.844 --> 01:36:05.214 wellness perspective and how being around the horses can benefit people- 01:36:05.474 --> 01:36:05.834 Rupert Isaacson: Mm 01:36:05.974 --> 01:36:07.374 Nicola Hepburn: um, from that perspective. 01:36:07.404 --> 01:36:11.304 And I think maybe I'm doing it again, you know, maybe it's creating 01:36:11.304 --> 01:36:15.724 the the environment, you know, that, that I'd like to be in. 01:36:15.734 --> 01:36:20.024 So I, I think it's, whatever we do in, in this work, there's always an element 01:36:20.184 --> 01:36:22.284 of personal influence in it, isn't there? 01:36:22.284 --> 01:36:22.874 So I think- 01:36:22.914 --> 01:36:26.104 Rupert Isaacson: There has to be, otherwise, w- w- in a funny 01:36:26.104 --> 01:36:27.684 way, what else are you, what, what else are you drawing on? 01:36:28.124 --> 01:36:28.354 Yeah. 01:36:28.924 --> 01:36:29.534 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, yeah. 01:36:29.534 --> 01:36:30.184 Exactly. 01:36:30.214 --> 01:36:35.764 So I think maybe, I think as, you know, as I've developed and I've, you know, changed 01:36:35.764 --> 01:36:38.824 it, you know, my, my kind of things that I'm interested in change as well. 01:36:38.824 --> 01:36:42.524 But I think the education part of what we do is something that I want to 01:36:42.554 --> 01:36:45.344 continue with, but I'm, you know, I'm really looking at a lot of wellness 01:36:45.344 --> 01:36:49.024 stuff at the moment as well and how we can, how we can work in that way. 01:36:49.214 --> 01:36:51.134 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting that you bring up menopause because, you 01:36:51.134 --> 01:36:54.144 know, in, I think a lot of people who'll be listening to this or watching this 01:36:54.184 --> 01:36:58.354 are probably women either approaching menopause or in menopause, or perhaps on 01:36:58.354 --> 01:37:02.966 the other side of menopause, and it seems to hit everybody differently But what we 01:37:02.966 --> 01:37:05.446 know is it hits ev- 50% of the population. 01:37:05.986 --> 01:37:08.876 You could, I think, argue to some degree that it hits 100% of the 01:37:08.876

--> 01:37:12.286 population because there is, to some degree, a male menopause as well. 01:37:12.286 --> 01:37:14.796 It's not, doesn't manifest in quite the same way. 01:37:15.266 --> 01:37:18.116 And men are generally very silent about how they suffer. 01:37:18.486 --> 01:37:22.246 But there's a sort of retreat into, can be a retreat into loneliness. 01:37:22.246 --> 01:37:23.876 There can be a retreat into ill health. 01:37:24.166 --> 01:37:31.556 There can be a retreat into despair, which you see men go into in their 01:37:31.576 --> 01:37:33.426 50s sometimes, and early 60s. 01:37:33.426 --> 01:37:40.246 And then when they retire and their job is no longer their identity there 01:37:40.246 --> 01:37:41.716 can sometimes be a huge collapse. 01:37:42.186 --> 01:37:45.426 And then we've got, you know, young men loneliness which is a whole thing. 01:37:45.736 --> 01:37:52.466 But a lot of the women I know, your colleagues, my colleagues right when the 01:37:54.374 --> 01:38:01.394 Success of the equine-assisted program kicks in and things become even more 01:38:01.394 --> 01:38:05.374 demanding because now you have staff to look after you and you have a large 01:38:05.374 --> 01:38:08.574 program and a lot more responsibility, and you've got to fundraise, and 01:38:08.574 --> 01:38:09.464 you, you know, blah, blah, blah. 01:38:09.784 --> 01:38:12.984 That's, of course, when your body goes, "Oh, surprise," you know. 01:38:13.094 --> 01:38:15.434 We're gonna make things tricky now. 01:38:15.724 --> 01:38:17.244 And you're just gonna have to power through. 01:38:17.904 --> 01:38:23.064 Some people seem to go through it with relatively little upset. 01:38:23.144 --> 01:38:26.594 Some people, it hits them like a freight train, and all points in between. 01:38:27.874 --> 01:38:29.674 W- what do you think is the need? 01:38:29.684 --> 01:38:32.234 What do you, you know, I don't know whether you're menopausal, 01:38:32.234 --> 01:38:37.164 perimenopausal, or whatever, but y- you're, it- it- it- it's- it's gonna 01:38:37.164 --> 01:38:39.074 be part of your reality whichever. 01:38:39.314 --> 01:38:47.502 W- what do you feel would be, as a woman, the, the, the sort of, is 01:38:47.502 --> 01:38:51.134 there, is there a sort of bottom line need that you think cou- sh- 01:38:51.134 --> 01:38:52.384 could and should be addressed there? 01:38:53.104 --> 01:38:58.174 Nicola Hepburn: I think, you know, it's f- I think it's very much around 01:38:58.474 --> 01:39:01.514 people having, again, it's back to a safe space to go where they can talk 01:39:01.514 --> 01:39:05.824 to other women, and it can, people understand, and people can empathize 01:39:05.834 --> 01:39:08.214 with each other and share experiences. 01:39:08.724 --> 01:39:12.454 You know, I think, I think obviously there's a need for education. 01:39:12.454 --> 01:39:17.744 I think there's a lot of stigma around HRT, and there's still stigma around, you 01:39:18.984 --> 01:39:19.154 know- Mm-hmm …

talking about menopause. 01:39:19.154 --> 01:39:23.994 And you know, I think actually you know, Louise Newson in the, in the UK, 01:39:23.994 --> 01:39:29.414 she's done a lot of work around making information about menopause much more 01:39:29.414 --> 01:39:34.424 accessible, and people being able to, you know, have the right medication. 01:39:34.424 --> 01:39:40.304 And so I think it's that kind of need for people to be able to talk about it with 01:39:40.314 --> 01:39:45.524 people and be able to get good advice and good information and feel supported. 01:39:45.524 --> 01:39:49.394 I think really where the horses come in and the, the wellness work is around 01:39:49.454 --> 01:39:54.644 you know, a safe space where people can, can go, and if they're having a shit 01:39:54.644 --> 01:39:56.084 day, say, "I'm having a really crap day. 01:39:56.084 --> 01:39:58.204 I'm feeling like this," and there's gonna be no judgment. 01:39:58.204 --> 01:40:00.294 There's gonna be understanding and support. 01:40:00.324 --> 01:40:04.504 And you know, just again, a person-centered provision 01:40:04.504 --> 01:40:06.334 where people feel listened to. 01:40:06.384 --> 01:40:09.834 And I think it's the same, it's the same kind of approach but just 01:40:09.954 --> 01:40:11.574 to a different demographic really. 01:40:11.654 --> 01:40:12.024 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:40:12.164 --> 01:40:12.484 Mm. 01:40:13.214 --> 01:40:17.174 I'm f- gonna be fascinated to see how it manifests. 01:40:17.174 --> 01:40:19.434 And, and then one that was, well, lovely thing is you've got a lovely 01:40:19.434 --> 01:40:20.844 cold lake there you can all jump into. 01:40:21.144 --> 01:40:26.204 Our, our our mutual friend and colleague, Terry Brosnan, you know, who runs 01:40:26.244 --> 01:40:29.424 the big Horse Boy center at, at, in, outside Dublin, at Stuart's Care. 01:40:29.774 --> 01:40:31.934 She says, "Rupert, thank God for cold water swimming." 01:40:32.224 --> 01:40:35.044 You know, but it, often these things actually do come down very 01:40:35.044 --> 01:40:39.498 much to the physical too, like one needs- Okay, you're overheating. 01:40:39.508 --> 01:40:40.928 What, what are we gonna do about this? 01:40:40.948 --> 01:40:45.088 It's, it's, w- as you know, as we're sitting here in summer 2026, and 01:40:45.088 --> 01:40:49.348 we're dealing with climate warming temperatures, you know, and you're 01:40:49.348 --> 01:40:53.128 out there standing in that arena, and you're suffering hot flashes. 01:40:53.128 --> 01:40:53.638 What are you gonna do? 01:40:53.648 --> 01:40:57.758 Like, what, what is, what can we actually physically do to cool down? 01:40:57.758 --> 01:40:59.998 What can we do to feel more comfortable, feel better? 01:40:59.998 --> 01:41:02.258 Well, the first thing we have to be able to do is talk about it, right? 01:41:02.548 --> 01:41:05.398 Because if we can't fess up to the fact that this is happening 01:41:05.398 --> 01:41:10.978 and we're suffering, then it's a quick road to the grave, really. 01:41:11.018 --> 01:41:13.518 I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's that level of crisis. 01:41:13.978 --> 01:41:22.138 I'm welcoming this conversation because the field that you and I 01:41:22.138 --> 01:41:23.608 are in is largely female driven. 01:41:24.398 --> 01:41:24.478 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:41:25.108 --> 01:41:28.398 Rupert Isaacson: Most of those women now are coming of age to this sort 01:41:28.398 --> 01:41:33.188 of c- they're sort of, they're coming to their queen time of the life, 01:41:33.678 --> 01:41:38.438 which coincides with this massive physical and hormonal challenge. 01:41:38.728 --> 01:41:43.448 I, I, I so agree with you that the stigma around HRT I don't 01:41:43.448 --> 01:41:44.718 think is to anybody's benefit. 01:41:44.728 --> 01:41:44.748 No. 01:41:45.488 --> 01:41:48.078 And I, I don't really see what- 01:41:51.174 --> 01:42:00.424 benefit there is to allowing 50% of the workforce and the managerial 01:42:00.424 --> 01:42:08.104 force and the entrepreneurial force to be sort of slain by a dragon th- 01:42:08.194 --> 01:42:11.684 without … No, you give them a sword and a shield, but it's, it's all right 01:42:11.684 --> 01:42:13.074 to admit that the dragon is there. 01:42:13.794 --> 01:42:17.934 Have you got plans to actually implement this in your, in, in your practice? 01:42:17.934 --> 01:42:20.194 And if so, like, what are the little pilot projects? 01:42:20.194 --> 01:42:22.514 What are the toes in the water that you might be doing 01:42:22.514 --> 01:42:23.504 in the next couple of years? 01:42:24.044 --> 01:42:26.684 Nicola Hepburn: I'm looking at initially looking at some retreats. 01:42:26.744 --> 01:42:29.444 We've been looking at, you know, running some retreats 'cause we've 01:42:29.444 --> 01:42:32.584 got an ideal setting for it with the horses, like you say, with the lakes. 01:42:32.584 --> 01:42:33.214 We've got sauna. 01:42:33.354 --> 01:42:34.684 We've got the woodland. 01:42:34.704 --> 01:42:38.464 We've, you know … So it's just such a, a beautiful site and, you 01:42:38.464 --> 01:42:40.434 know, I've got friends who do yoga. 01:42:40.994 --> 01:42:44.084 And I, you know, I know that you're running retreats as well, so I'm talking 01:42:44.084 --> 01:42:45.274 to people about running retreats. 01:42:45.594 --> 01:42:46.034 Mm-hmm. 01:42:46.034 --> 01:42:48.804 And we're thinking maybe a little pilot retreat for a few days this summer. 01:42:49.274 --> 01:42:51.264 But I'm also interested in running some support groups. 01:42:51.264 --> 01:42:53.024 It's all very in its inception at the moment, you know. 01:42:53.024 --> 01:42:54.054 Mm-hmm. 01:42:54.944 --> 01:42:57.334 You know, haven't really got much further than that at the moment. 01:42:57.404 --> 01:43:00.174 That's, you know, where I am, but we are looking at organizing, like, a small 01:43:00.174 --> 01:43:04.174 retreat at some point this summer for just a few days as, like, a, a test 01:43:04.174 -->

01:43:09.924 run to see what works and what, you know, what people want really, Mm-hmm 01:43:09.924 --> 01:43:09.964 comes to this. 01:43:09.964 --> 01:43:13.564 But it's a very different approach for me really, a different demographic. 01:43:13.564 --> 01:43:14.414 So it's gonna take a bit- 01:43:14.474 --> 01:43:15.004 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely 01:43:15.664 --> 01:43:16.114 … Nicola Hepburn: work it out. 01:43:16.134 --> 01:43:21.304 And you know, again, do the right research so that we're really providing 01:43:21.484 --> 01:43:25.234 what people, what's gonna be of use to people and help people, so. 01:43:26.004 --> 01:43:27.344 Rupert Isaacson: Well, spoiler alert listeners. 01:43:27.344 --> 01:43:31.234 We will, Nikki and I are gonna do something next summer. 01:43:31.714 --> 01:43:36.424 And I think what would be really good with that is we, I think we need to reach out 01:43:36.444 --> 01:43:42.204 to men as well who are going through that … Do we call it a midlife crisis anymore? 01:43:42.204 --> 01:43:45.044 Do we call it a two-thirds of the way th- through life crisis? 01:43:45.054 --> 01:43:45.964 Do we call it male menopause? 01:43:45.964 --> 01:43:50.174 I don't know what we call it, but we know that there's suffering, 01:43:50.224 --> 01:43:50.934 and we know that there's- 01:43:55.248 --> 01:44:00.468 D- disassociation from each other that this is where often relationships break 01:44:00.468 --> 01:44:06.968 down right when people have built, spent decades building stuff together. 01:44:07.468 --> 01:44:13.478 And the sudden breakdowns in communication and understanding, do they need to happen? 01:44:13.968 --> 01:44:16.488 I mean, everybody needs to feel seen and heard, right? 01:44:16.498 --> 01:44:18.478 You know, men do, women do. 01:44:19.188 --> 01:44:23.188 Are there ways that we can draw upon what we've been doing with special 01:44:23.188 --> 01:44:29.628 needs and neurodiverse all these years to help ourselves and those like us to 01:44:30.138 --> 01:44:34.958 effectively keep putting one foot in front of the other when the rules change? 01:44:35.688 --> 01:44:40.738 Because yeah, it's, it's change is distressing. 01:44:42.018 --> 01:44:43.608 Nicola Hepburn: And we're- Yeah. 01:44:43.608 --> 01:44:45.778 I, I heard something that I thought was really interesting that said 01:44:45.798 --> 01:44:48.078 that, you know, the people who stay with you through your life are the 01:44:48.078 --> 01:44:49.578 people who can change with you- Mm-hmm 01:44:50.868 --> 01:44:51.398 who are going to accept when you change. 01:44:51.398 --> 01:44:54.688 And I think the problem- Mm … a lot of the time when people expect other people 01:44:54.688 --> 01:45:00.768 to stay the same, so- Mm … you know, maybe it's learning to accept people, 01:45:00.768 --> 01:45:05.188 people's changes and grow with them, you know, that's a huge, a huge thing to- 01:45:05.208 --> 01:45:05.628 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:45:05.638 --> 01:45:08.458

Right … which, I, I think it goes, it goes beyond acceptance, doesn't it? 01:45:08.458 --> 01:45:10.848 I think it has to go to like more like to curiosity. 01:45:10.848 --> 01:45:14.998 It's like, "Oh, Nikki, you know, I've known you all this time, and 01:45:14.998 --> 01:45:18.898 now you're this sort of new Nikki. 01:45:19.458 --> 01:45:23.018 Help me to explore and appreciate those com- complexities. 01:45:23.018 --> 01:45:24.738 Like, how can you… 01:45:24.768 --> 01:45:25.038 How… 01:45:25.338 --> 01:45:27.988 Rather than saying, "Well, no, I want you to be the old Nikki." 01:45:28.438 --> 01:45:28.508 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:45:28.838 --> 01:45:30.718 Rupert Isaacson: You say, "Well, Rupert, you know, sorry, but with 01:45:30.718 --> 01:45:31.888 the best will in the world, I'm not. 01:45:32.118 --> 01:45:37.718 You know, I'm still here if you wanna come along for the ride, 01:45:37.728 --> 01:45:39.008 but I myself don't perhaps know." 01:45:39.538 --> 01:45:39.918 You know? 01:45:40.088 --> 01:45:43.498 But I do think, yeah, it's, it's w- it's almost like we're, we're not 01:45:43.498 --> 01:45:46.688 encouraged to be curious perhaps 'cause we're afraid, perhaps because 01:45:46.698 --> 01:45:49.928 we're encouraged to be afraid, perhaps because we're told we'll be punished, 01:45:49.928 --> 01:45:52.458 again, if we ask the wrong question or make the wrong assumption or… 01:45:52.928 --> 01:45:57.678 But maybe we need to make those wrong assumptions and ask those wrong 01:45:57.678 --> 01:46:00.888 questions in order to get on the other side of them to ask the right ones. 01:46:01.238 --> 01:46:05.168 But is there a safe space where we can do that without getting vilified? 01:46:05.768 --> 01:46:08.798 You know, or if, if we're so afraid of being vilified, will we just 01:46:08.798 --> 01:46:11.718 be paralyzed and drift apart? 01:46:12.208 --> 01:46:13.728 And I do think that happens to people. 01:46:14.318 --> 01:46:14.618 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:46:14.728 --> 01:46:16.168 Rupert Isaacson: Because, you know, I think this is something 01:46:16.168 --> 01:46:17.138 that, that needs to be addressed. 01:46:17.148 --> 01:46:22.788 Anger is always a big part of the work we do. 01:46:23.108 --> 01:46:27.068 So, you know, when you're dealing with a, a small person who's having 01:46:27.068 --> 01:46:30.958 a lot of trouble, neurodiverse, going through transitions, you 01:46:30.958 --> 01:46:32.328 deal with distress and anger. 01:46:32.838 --> 01:46:38.888 You know, when you're, when you're a young adult and your amygdala is in advance 01:46:38.888 --> 01:46:44.548 of your prefrontal cortex at 17, 18, 13, whatever, you deal with a lot of anger. 01:46:45.348 --> 01:46:48.058 Menopause, a lot of anger comes through. 01:46:48.818 --> 01:46:51.428 Now, is that a creative force? 01:46:52.168 --> 01:46:55.028 Can that be explored as a creative force? 01:46:55.698 --> 01:46:58.018 But it's also painful to deal with, difficult to deal 01:46:58.038 --> 01:46:59.338 with, dangerous to deal with. 01:47:00.168 --> 01:47:01.308 The fear is real. 01:47:02.848 --> 01:47:06.638 If, if you're a man who says the wrong thing, the fear is real. 01:47:07.468 --> 01:47:09.878 The lashing out is very real. 01:47:10.038 --> 01:47:13.888 Similarly, if you're a woman and you say the wrong thing to a man, 01:47:13.898 --> 01:47:15.958 the, the lashing out is very real. 01:47:17.848 --> 01:47:22.988 This human anger thing, male or female, how do we… 01:47:23.728 --> 01:47:26.218 I, I think that that is what keep, keeps people 01:47:28.238 --> 01:47:29.358 too afraid to engage. 01:47:29.378 --> 01:47:30.058 Do you know what I mean? 01:47:30.058 --> 01:47:33.198 Like h- what, what, what do we deal, how, h- how do, how do we bridge that? 01:47:34.168 --> 01:47:36.868 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah, I think, I think people need, you know, it's hard sometimes 01:47:36.868 --> 01:47:41.088 to recognize a feeling or recognize why you're feeling a feeling, you know? 01:47:41.098 --> 01:47:44.098 And I think i- or understanding why you feel angry, you know? 01:47:44.098 --> 01:47:47.088 And I think, I think this, this time of life is, there's lots of 01:47:47.088 --> 01:47:50.048 other things going on, you know, as well with people's parents getting 01:47:50.048 --> 01:47:52.568 sick or children leaving home or- 01:47:52.638 --> 01:47:53.178 Rupert Isaacson: Mm 01:47:54.018 --> 01:47:54.848 Nicola Hepburn: doing exams or going to university. 01:47:54.848 --> 01:47:54.988 I think it's, it's a time of a lot of pressures, you know- Mm 01:47:58.948 --> 01:48:00.848 and a lot of different things going on. 01:48:00.848 --> 01:48:04.238 And so it's, you know, do people always necessarily have the time to 01:48:04.248 --> 01:48:07.948 think about themselves and the root of their feelings or the root of their 01:48:07.948 --> 01:48:09.008 anger and where it's coming from? 01:48:09.288 --> 01:48:11.718 Do they have to- Mm … think about that 'cause they're so absorbed with 01:48:11.718 --> 01:48:12.898 everything else that's going on? 01:48:12.898 --> 01:48:14.484 It's, I don't know. 01:48:14.484 --> 01:48:16.738 I don't have the answers, but- Yeah … I think it's a, it's 01:48:16.738 --> 01:48:18.048 a very interesting question. 01:48:19.018 --> 01:48:21.188 Rupert Isaacson: I suspect that nature's always gonna be the answer. 01:48:21.318 --> 01:48:24.208 I suspect that the return of the nervous system- 01:48:24.628 --> 01:48:24.768 Nicola Hepburn: Mm-hmm 01:48:24.838 --> 01:48:28.768 … Rupert Isaacson: to a sort of reset which only nature can provide, right? 01:48:29.218 --> 01:48:33.428 But I suspect one probably will need to do that more often than less often, 01:48:34.288 --> 01:48:39.388 that we, we put so much attention on to helping of young people because they 01:48:39.388 --> 01:48:43.778 got their lives ahead of them, and we want, you know, to s- set them sail on 01:48:43.778 --> 01:48:45.368 the ocean in

the best ship that we can. 01:48:46.018 --> 01:48:46.378 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:48:46.638 --> 01:48:50.028 Rupert Isaacson: But once they're out there, you know, Mid-Atlantic, 01:48:50.058 --> 01:48:53.518 there's, you know, some waves and some storms, and by the time they get 01:48:53.518 --> 01:48:54.708 to the Mid-Atlantic, they're older. 01:48:55.408 --> 01:48:58.348 By the time they land on the foreign shore, they're older still. 01:48:59.238 --> 01:49:02.698 By the time they're setting up camp there, perhaps a, you know, 01:49:02.728 --> 01:49:04.178 they're a decade or two in. 01:49:04.998 --> 01:49:07.308 And as you say, the pressures get greater. 01:49:07.868 --> 01:49:14.058 You happen to have, I think, that place despite it being in a very, you know, 01:49:14.058 --> 01:49:17.178 well-populated part of the British Isles. 01:49:17.428 --> 01:49:20.438 It's not far from Birmingham, you know, not far from London. 01:49:20.538 --> 01:49:21.958 But yeah, it's very rural where you are. 01:49:21.958 --> 01:49:22.648 It's deeply rural. 01:49:22.648 --> 01:49:25.078 You hear the owls at night, see the stars. 01:49:27.116 --> 01:49:32.966 I suspect you'll be able to give people access to what they need, and I, I'm 01:49:32.976 --> 01:49:36.676 excited to see how you offer that 01:49:38.626 --> 01:49:38.806 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:49:38.806 --> 01:49:41.726 It's gonna be, it's gonna be an exciting new adventure, I think. 01:49:41.726 --> 01:49:45.696 Something yeah, that's … I think it's got a lot of potential. 01:49:45.696 --> 01:49:48.396 And I think, you know, like you say, it's the same thing with the children. 01:49:48.396 --> 01:49:52.646 The environment just lends itself to the therapeutic. 01:49:52.746 --> 01:49:53.326 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:49:53.336 --> 01:49:53.366 'Cause 01:49:54.166 --> 01:49:56.406 Nicola Hepburn: it's, it is j- You know, before we do anything, we've got 01:49:56.406 --> 01:49:59.696 this beautiful therapeutic environment, so we're very lucky to have that as 01:49:59.696 --> 01:50:03.036 a starting, a starting point really. 01:50:03.046 --> 01:50:07.126 And you know, the lakes as well, I think, you know, being near water- Mm … the 01:50:07.126 --> 01:50:10.556 research, you know, this is very similar to the research around horses, isn't it? 01:50:10.706 --> 01:50:10.776 Yeah. 01:50:10.996 --> 01:50:11.616 You know? 01:50:11.616 --> 01:50:13.546 And it's the same as being in woodland, isn't it? 01:50:13.546 --> 01:50:15.806 The research of what it does to you physically- 01:50:16.046 --> 01:50:16.466 Rupert Isaacson: Yes 01:50:16.526 --> 01:50:20.176 … Nicola Hepburn: being in those environments is, is- Yes … huge impact. 01:50:20.516 --> 01:50:24.596 So I think, yeah, I think the ha- having a retreat in that environment where you 01:50:24.596 --> 01:50:27.926 understand what's going on, and then you can take away from that and apply it to 01:50:27.926 --> 01:50:31.756 your life elsewhere, I think that

would be really valuable to a lot of people. 01:50:32.266 --> 01:50:32.746 Rupert Isaacson: It will. 01:50:32.816 --> 01:50:33.866 Well, I can't wait to do it with you. 01:50:34.336 --> 01:50:38.176 And for those, those people who are listening and watching, send us an email. 01:50:38.356 --> 01:50:41.656 You know where to reach us, and we'll … If you wanna come on one of these early 01:50:41.656 --> 01:50:45.156 retreats then you can also go up to Stratford-on-Avon up the road afterwards 01:50:45.386 --> 01:50:50.056 or before and have a little chat with Shakespeare and An- Anne Hathaway. 01:50:50.756 --> 01:50:51.166 Okay. 01:50:51.276 --> 01:50:53.786 Well, Nikki, it's been fan- fantastic. 01:50:54.346 --> 01:50:55.846 How do people contact you? 01:50:56.246 --> 01:51:02.886 Give us the plugs, websites, contacts, offerings, what people can contact you 01:51:02.896 --> 01:51:09.332 for not just the services, but also, you know- Guidance, tuition, consultation 01:51:10.212 --> 01:51:10.392 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:51:10.452 --> 01:51:13.082 Well, the website is, is the the best place to go, so 01:51:13.082 --> 01:51:15.352 it's equinelearning.org.uk. 01:51:16.212 --> 01:51:20.252 And there's a contact us page on the website that you can, you can 01:51:20.262 --> 01:51:22.842 send a … You know, if you have a query, you can send it to there. 01:51:23.192 --> 01:51:28.152 Or there's an email address, which is hello@equinelearning.org.uk. 01:51:28.442 --> 01:51:30.912 But all our contact details are, are on the website. 01:51:30.912 --> 01:51:33.592 If you Google Equine Learning, it, you know, it should come up. 01:51:34.142 --> 01:51:38.432 And yeah, I mean, people can get in touch with me about our therapeutic 01:51:38.432 --> 01:51:41.202 services, about our camps, about retreats. 01:51:41.202 --> 01:51:42.422 We are looking at running some. 01:51:42.422 --> 01:51:46.252 We do private stays for families at the moment, if they want to come and stay and 01:51:46.252 --> 01:51:49.902 bring a child and stay on site and do some work with the horses and use the lakes and 01:51:49.902 --> 01:51:51.792 the other facilities here, we can do that. 01:51:52.212 --> 01:51:54.412 We are looking at running some camps again next summer. 01:51:54.852 --> 01:51:59.522 And then obviously for therapeutic work and education we, we can also do 01:51:59.542 --> 01:52:03.152 education on a more remote basis for people who may not be in the local 01:52:03.152 --> 01:52:07.822 area who might be interested in doing a qualification with our organization. 01:52:07.832 --> 01:52:10.652 So, yeah, those are all the things that we can, we can offer. 01:52:10.832 --> 01:52:11.232 And, 01:52:11.312 --> 01:52:12.682 Rupert Isaacson: And, and once again, the website? 01:52:13.342 --> 01:52:16.142 Nicola Hepburn: It's equinelearning.org.uk. 01:52:16.572 --> 01:52:20.142 Rupert Isaacson: Equinelearning.org.uk. 01:52:20.422 --> 01:52:23.592 And I'm sure that there's a, an email link on there that they can reach you at. 01:52:23.682 --> 01:52:23.932 Nicola Hepburn: Yeah. 01:52:23.992 --> 01:52:25.032 There's a contact us page. 01:52:25.032 --> 01:52:26.942 It's got all our contact details on there. 01:52:27.322 --> 01:52:27.762 Rupert Isaacson: Super. 01:52:28.402 --> 01:52:28.752 All right. 01:52:28.752 --> 01:52:31.672 Well, I think we should probably come on and have this conversation again 01:52:31.722 --> 01:52:36.912 after we've done the first retreat next year, so I guess we say to be continued. 01:52:37.342 --> 01:52:37.752 Nicola Hepburn: Okay. 01:52:37.772 --> 01:52:40.492 Well, thank you very much for, for inviting me along today, Rupert. 01:52:41.082 --> 01:52:42.552 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it's been my great pleasure 01:52:42.651 --> 01:52:45.771 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:52:46.311 --> 01:52:51.211 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 01:52:51.221 --> 01:52:55.391 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of 01:52:55.391 --> 01:52:57.271 Equine Assisted Stuff out there. 01:52:57.421 --> 01:53:00.501 And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check 01:53:00.511 --> 01:53:03.191 out I'll live free ride free podcast. 01:53:03.581 --> 01:53:08.341 And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson. 01:53:08.391 --> 01:53:10.881 com and click on the Patreon link. 01:53:11.581 --> 01:53:15.101 If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career 01:53:15.451 --> 01:53:18.961 in the equine assisted field, you might want to check out our three 01:53:18.971 --> 01:53:24.731 certification programs, horseboy method, movement method, and taquin. 01:53:24.816 --> 01:53:26.286 Equine integration. 01:53:26.556 --> 01:53:31.506 You can find all of those over on new Trails learning.com. 01:53:31.706 --> 01:53:35.096 And finally, if you want to check out our cool rock and roll themed 01:53:35.096 --> 01:53:38.116 merch back on rupert isaacson.com, 01:53:38.446 --> 01:53:39.586 please click on Shop. 01:53:39.646 --> 01:53:41.326 You'll find all kinds of fun goodies there. 01:53:41.506 --> 01:53:46.896 And if you're looking for a way to spend time until the next podcast, you might 01:53:46.896 --> 01:53:51.006 want to consider reading the books that kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the 01:53:51.006 --> 01:53:53.816 Long Ride Home and The Healing Land. 01:53:54.086 --> 01:53:55.706 So see you next time on Equine Assistant. 01:53:55.826 --> 01:53:56.156 world. 01:53:56.416 --> 01:53:57.606 Join us for the adventure.