התמלול המלא של Episode 22: Ripple Effect

already in I was burnt out from that once and then so she went over to the classroom and everybody went not to lag behind his oh, I want to go because I just really wanted to get out of there in custody program, but I didn't want to go because they had this symbol. And I'm like, Man, I can go that dad as a coat, man. And that's not right. So I'm wrong. And so then I kept saying I can't do it was something inside let me say go do it. And before I knew it, I snatched open the door and there Clay Tumey: 3:49 was how long did it take from from the first time you saw that symbol? To the first time you actually stepped inside and realize, and maybe it's not that scary? Alex Senegal: 3:58 I was only about Clay Tumey: 4:00 15 minutes. Oh, it's quick. Yeah. Okay. I thought I thought it was a while. Alex Senegal: 4:04 No, I was out. No, because it was all happening. Like easy. Yeah, you got to do it. Now. You're gonna do it. Yeah. Clay Tumey: 4:11 Do you remember? Do you remember what Susan opened with and what she said and what made it's I'm assuming a lot here that you know, what? Was it easy to listen to her? Or did it take a while to warm up to her? Um, and do you remember what those first conversations were Alex Senegal: 4:26 like? Actually, that was the that was the thing that I would ask them what because he she was so inviting, and it was like, this is something that for me, I knew it was something I needed. It was just that's what kept coming up for me. And it was just the way she presented it. She presented it in a manner in which she cared that you can feel she cared so that's where I kept wrassling where I'm like this new almond sounds like she cares about people but to symbol can get me Yeah, Dan said I just ignored the symbol went on in there. You know Man, I want the best show he's ever made him like, yeah, yeah. Clay Tumey: 5:05 What's that? What's the big deal about whether or not somebody cares? What Why does it matter if she's if she's there to bring information, knowledge, however you want to put it? What? Why? Why is it important that Alex Senegal: 5:16 everybody can bring information and knowledge, you know, anybody can do that. But what I've learned is the care component, the love component. And I can use scripture on this when the Bible tells me that love conquers all things. And when the word all doesn't mean, nothing escapes out of that nothing's exempt from the word all. So, in my situation, I was suffering from a lot of guilt and shame and unworthiness, and you know, I didn't let the world down again, let my family down again, let myself down again. And I didn't feel like I was worth anything. So for someone to care, regardless to what I was feeling about myself, that was a huge that was that was just huge. And that's what that's what that's what makes the difference with these and custody programs. Because, you know, I can sit here and put a program together on paper, now,

given a sweet whiskey about who's going to be presented to and how and what they're going through, and nothing like that. Right. All I know is that I do this I put the right information down, I'm going to get a grant this grant and we'll get this money. And then all I got to do is go in there and give some kind of skeleton program that that's what happens. And that wasn't what was happening with what EPP was Susan coming in presenting this program. It's messy, she wouldn't even get paid. She's doing this for Clay Tumey: 6:40 free. I was all days there was no, there was no there was no ban. There was no getting paid. There were no grants. There were no there were no dollar signs were few and far between. Right. So I think it's a fair, it's a fair point to start. And we won't we won't stay there too long. Because I want to get I want to, there's a lot between you said 2014 2014. Alex Senegal: 7:01 So Clay Tumey: 7:01 nine, nine years past, we got to jump ahead a few years. But I will tell folks that you've talked a lot you've been very open and this this there's plenty of your story that can be found. Yeah, I use your stories out there. You've shared a lot of yourself. Yeah, and if folks want to know more about that, and the details of when you talk about let my family down again, that story has been told. And and and I would encourage folks to go find that and listen to it. And hey, by the way, if you can't find it, give Alex a holler give him an email or something. And he's open and honest and ready to share that. Yes, the and I think there's a lot of value in that. So skipping ahead a year or so you were released from from custody most recently when? 2015 Do you remember which month and Alex Senegal: 7:44 day I said dues? It was well it was it made it 20 Made it 24th 2015 Clay Tumey: 7:52 So this you're a few months away from eight years out? Yeah. And what when you when you got out what was released like for you where do you go? What do you do? What did you find to be easy to difficult anything? Oh, yeah. Alex Senegal: 8:06 Well, it was easy for me it was really easy. Several things had happened. One is that before I got arrested when I went into custody, I had started up a base reentry program. So the reentry program was going full force Destiny reentry it was going to get you started as what welcomed you back. Now, you know, started now move I'm a client and Clay Tumey: 8:30 commercial like the 80s and 90s Not only am I a member but I'm also the are not only am I the president, but I'm also the Alex Senegal: 8:36 closeted clients a perfect fit. And so yes, we had a lot of support from Destiny reentry. But I also had a lot of a lot of interaction, a lot of support from from Susan herself. You know, and I mean, she received she was a mentor. You know, she took me pick me up to the right hand guide me and showed me and kept going and I kept on interacting with the Enneagram community community at that time, because she was giving she was also teaching classes up in Los Gatos, but it wasn't the Enneagram Prison Project who was a community Enneagram thing so I will go up there and sit in Glenroy now when it just being around Susan in really just learning a new culture and learning a new language learning a new way to live you know and then she sent me up to brasen for might do that. I live Lillian Bella Rosa Houma. And so at Unknown: 9:43 this point, you're an ambassador, and you're an ambassador of the Enneagram Prison Project and and I know valen bro says most folks probably will, but to anybody who doesn't. What the hell are you talking about? Alex Senegal: 9:53 Yeah, that's battle roses is the facility with a narrative Enneagram is taught and I'm So I really was blessed to sit at the feet of David Daniels at the time. May he rest in peace and Peter Harat ha Han, Han, and Peter and Helen Palmer, who was our Rene Rosario, none of the big wigs. I mean, I got a great opportunity to just sit the whole month and man is some heavy hitter, man. So yeah, so it was really, Clay Tumey: 10:31 what was that? Like? Let me ask it this way. Because I'm gonna say, you know, I will say the things that most people are uncomfortable saying. Yes, sir. You don't look like everybody else that's in that in that crowd. Alex Senegal: 10:41 Oh, well, that was the beginning of self acceptance. Yeah, that was by me really? At this one time the Enneagram Prison Project. It was really upper echelon fortune 500 company that's what was really going to be on brasa Yeah. Not big black dudes who just got out of prison? No, no, even though there was just finished saying what I started about. I Clay Tumey: 11:01 go you don't you don't you don't look the part as I put in quotes right. Here, by the way, can you vote for me that that's accurate? Alex Senegal: 11:09 And okay, that is? That is the actual back? Yeah, that's back back behind that. And so one thing I know, there was one black dude that did come through there. I sat on a panel, but you ex, NFL football player, okay, you know, had money and right and all that stuff. So it still didn't matter of fact, he wasn't even accepting of me. Yeah. Because that's interesting. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah. But so that was cool. But that was the best thing about it. And that was really the Enneagram Prison Project, really starting to get our feelers out there to get our name out there. And, and so me don't want an ambassador to do is really promoting Enneagram Prison Project. I was not ashamed of being, you know, learning to Enneagram in prison metabank I thought that was the best thing anyone could ever done. Right? And so why though, why? Why is that? Well, one is for the fact that someone cared about somebody else who was so broken. You know, someone cared about people who are so broken, so low, so destroyed and out and used to our analogy, or Humpty Dumpty. He was so

shattered, he couldn't even be put back together. Were many of us incarcerated are so shattered just like that. But the Enneagram is helping put us back together, along with my faith, you know, and Jesus Christ. That's what is really, for me, has helped put me back together made me Whoa, Clay Tumey: 12:40 why didn't you bring that in? Because I also want to talk about that how the Enneagram goes with your faith instead of against or even otherwise. And Phil has talked about it before Episode Seven, for those of you curious, I hope I'm gonna hope I'm quoting that right, I believe it's Episode Seven with Phil and Susanne and Phil being a pastor talks, talks about how the Enneagram and its faith go go side by side down the same highway just maybe in different lanes and, and you know, I talked to my mom cup a few episodes ago, and it was a big concern for her, you know, does this jive with what? What I believe the Bible and my God is telling me is okay, and the answer is yes, clearly, and when I say clearly, it's clear to me, but it might not always be and even even starting with the symbol being kind of right and then now so your as you sit in front of me, you're saying definitively like they, they did well, I don't want to say what you what you're trying to say you keep going on. Alex Senegal: 13:36 For, for me, and this is where I come to the sole conclusion of the Bible would tell you to change the Bible tell you what not to do. And the Bible tells us how we should have the Bible, Christ and all that and all that's fine. But the Bible don't tell us how to change. You know, I can go about like, stop using drugs and stop chasing women and all that stuff. Okay, so Doc can stop. But it never, you know, tell me why ever do it right? You know, the Enneagram it helped me understand why did I even do these things. And once I understand come to the conclusion and understand why I'm doing what I'm doing, then I can start changing these things that I'm doing. And that's really helped me the understanding of why helped me understand and know how to stop Yeah, you know, and how to address it. And so that's for me and then also to be able to develop the true essence. You know, a divine spark all these are God Christ like characters for me. Christ like characteristics and then having the courage and understanding what my why I have so much feared to live this way. You know, what are the components that makes me feel I'm not even worth living this way. Because when I caught my case, and last case, I was hanging out in church I was faithful in church, I was a deacon in the church I had been ordained minister yet, man, today I am a minister in church, you know, but it's just really a helper to that can go hand in hand. You know, for me anywhere does. Clay Tumey: 15:16 And there was a, there was a story today and we will leave out the names because we were we were in prison earlier today. And one of the, I'll say the type and you'll know exactly who I'm talking about Type Three. And he was telling a story about when he was young and still in shoes, and the and the reason behind stealing shoes, and it's so easy. It's such a beautiful explanation and description really, of how we can judge things from a distance and be so wrong about what we saw. Yeah. And in this in this kid's case, he's a man now he's in his late 20s. But at the time, he was a child, right. And he stole a new pair of shoes and some shorts. Yeah. And it wasn't because he had sticky fingers. It wasn't because he was trying to sell them later from profit. It wasn't because he had a habit to support. Right? It wasn't all the things that we tell people. Oh, you're so bad. You're a thief, right? You're, you're a criminal. You're a bad person. Those are that's those aren't. Those aren't true. No. They I mean, maybe they can sometimes. But in this case, he was talking about why he stole those shoes and to and to bring in what you're talking about. The Bible says don't steal the clearest day. Right, right. Just don't do it. And but the Bible doesn't speak to what that child was experiencing in that moment. Exactly. Which was he at a certain issues were trashed, right. His family was poor. Right. And he wanted to uphold a certain image. Because it matters. It matters. Alex Senegal: 16:43 It matters so much to one. Yeah, it was a part of at that was who he was that defined? We were Clay Tumey: 16:50 so the shoes completed him right away. Alex Senegal: 16:53 Now, I can also want to just say this, if people Christians would uphold true values, and would look out for individuals who don't have, then those don't have people don't have to make them destructive. decisions to go steal. Yeah, you know, and so, you know, Clay Tumey: 17:15 I'm always, I'm always comfortable opening up to another candidate. Alex Senegal: 17:22 You know, but there's a lot of work to be done in a lot of areas. I don't I don't want to just bash to Christians, but it's a lot of work, we got to do a lot of Unknown: 17:31 work. And the bottom line, which is what the what I want to circle back to is that that you're the third person I know more than three, but you're the third person on this podcast, at least to say that who I am as a believer, as a Christian, as as someone who walks in line with what I think is right, according to the Bible, Ray Enneagram works with that. Alex Senegal: 17:51 I haven't seen no reason why it doesn't. Bible tell me all good things come from the Lord. Yeah, that's the Bible say, Clay Tumey: 17:59 I'll say we might have some history that goes way back to them. Alex Senegal: 18:03 You know, what they say? Me? I can say I mean, I'm just saying bags. Back speaks voice. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So that's one part about being in a bass because I'm also, you know, along with being introduced to do the work of the Enneagram. I also an ambassador, which I love more than more, I

love being an ambassador, I really uphold this title with basketball. Clay Tumey: 18:28 And more titles, by the way, yeah, just keep going, but we'll get to that there are more titles. Alex Senegal: 18:37 Yeah, you know, and the deal is, to be able to just represent the Enneagram Prison Project, to be able to just uphold his integrity, you know, and be the living breathing proof of a program so to speak. And it's not even a program, it's a way of life, right? And that this just be the living, breathing proof. That is how valuable this is. Unknown: 19:08 You and I were on a bus in Utah a few years ago, you already know. And it's a great, it's a great line in the history of EPP and you said, we're going we're going up the mountain to this resort. We're not we're in a pretty nice little thing happening there. And we you and me and Susan and, and a few others. Were in his van and the driver. We were talking about EPP and the driver turns around and say well, what is EP what is EPP and you told him? I am Alex Senegal: 19:38 EPP. Yeah. And as simple as that. We embody this thing. Yeah. We put life to it. It's not no words on paper is not printouts and slides. You know, it's human beings man that's been transformed, has been healed. It's been renewed in their hearts and their minds is healing mean beings that were so broken and so disgusting. So, felt so unworthy. So sad and just not, you know, just not have purpose being put back together again. And now where we go, and it's our responsibility to turn this world upside down. You know, for those who are still stuck in this prison of their own making, yeah. Clay Tumey: 20:26 Have you ever considered being a speaker of some sort? All right title was it was some woman on a few years you got out? You were an ambassador, you went to bound bro. So you're grooving along? Yeah, and I don't know what year it was. But you did inherit a new title. It was neither was too long, though. Is 18 or 2018? Maybe ish. 1917 was somewhere and there's definitely before COVID. At least I? I'm pretty sure it was before COVID. Member, but the time timeline aside, what is what else? Are you a board Alex Senegal: 21:02 member? That yeah, that's kind of insane. You know, I wrestled with that Clay Tumey: 21:08 hard. When you say insane. I'm translating that in my brain is that's pretty wild. That's pretty bizarre, or that's pretty unexpected, or, or whatever. I don't think it's insane for the record. Alex Senegal: 21:20 Okay, the deal is going back to what something you were saying. And I'm gonna complete saying there's a valid Brosa I was the only, only only black male there. And then I were a visitor when one came and, and so at that time, you know, I had to know who I was, I had to get to a point and they, it offered me a great platform to really put the practice on me being worth something, not not not exclude the color of my skin, exclude my education and exclude my background excluding everything else, to sit and hold my position my seat right there in the presence of all these people who in my mind, and I went there several times was way smarter than me way, Richard me way better than me, not one person in their head of felony, okay. And I had to sit down and hold who I am in my value. And all of it as this path I was on. All of it was just a preparation for one step to the next step for the next day. So when I was in Brighton, to be on the board, and to sit there, I had to hold myself and I revert back to the Tuberosa, you know, which was the beginning of my solidify in my training about holding my value. And so then I really had to sit there and know that my purpose there was going to be meaningful, but it wouldn't be meaningful unless I put a voice to it. You know, being being a nine, I can sit there and let everybody else have all these discussion. And I put on the Yep, base. But I won't never speak what needs to be spoken. And I would I would I didn't want to do that. I knew I couldn't do that Susan, was it she's not gonna let me do that. And so I really began to excel. Why am I here? Yeah. And the purpose will end for me, my purpose for being on that board is still to represent the ambassadors first and foremost. And those of you who are still in custody, incarceration. Do like it. I love it. I love it. Clay Tumey: 23:41 unfortunate that the microphones may pick up that small Alex Senegal: 23:44 one. Yeah, man, I love it. Because, first of all, its purpose. And I know this purpose for me in life is a good purpose. Its purpose is a meaningful one. It's one that I believe in best in and when you invest in people you invest in humanity is the best investment anyone can ever make. is better than investing in the most billion dollar project that you're going to get a fantastic return on, you can get a greater return and even invest in human beings. And so we get that opportunity. Clay Tumey: 24:25 What is one more question about the board then we'll we'll scoot a few years more into the future getting closer to now what what are some things about being a board member with an organization like this that matters so much and that does so many good things connected to so many good people? What's something that you might not have expected? Going into? And I know the hours I know some of those long weekends. That's gonna be quarterly stuff and I know you can't talk about all what I think caught you off guard. Alex Senegal: 24:55 There's one component I think is fantastic and I love it. At first, I didn't know what it was. I was just going along. I didn't know what the heck they were talking about. Clay Tumey: 25:06 But I spoke to chuck Collins. Yeah, yeah. Alex Senegal: 25:09 Yeah, exactly. And so this thing called group dynamics, before we start everybody to check in with the group dynamics, and everybody was four or five people, right, right. Six, six. And so

everybody was known. I'm dealing with everyone. And I'm like, okay, so I sound the sound good with everyone, which I'm going to do I want to talk about nobody. Clay Tumey: 25:32 Group dynamics is a step before the first step where we say, does anybody have any issues that will prevent us from being present for this conversation? Exactly. That I do that that was off top my head? That was exactly right. Cool. That's exactly it. So you're doing that before the meetings before Alex Senegal: 25:48 meeting? Yeah. And I really started seeing how powerful that right there was before before they even if I had an issue with you, and and that was my invitation to address it. Yeah. You know. And so that that way, we as a board, we as a group, we as a collective, we, as one can come together as one wants, if you get a while to get junk out the way that's preventing it. So yeah, so in saying that, that will make us have a very powerful board. Clay Tumey: 26:21 Yeah. That is the very, that's the perfect example of this, of this quote that we have, that we that we claim to do with the claim to be is that we do the work together. Yes. And you're starting off a very important meeting by saying, Hey, anybody got a bone to pay? Right? I'm paraphrasing. That's not how it is. That's not that's, it ain't nobody's checking anybody, but you're not changing. You're not changing. That's exactly what it is. The space is there. If I walk in, and I'm pissed off at Alex are not even pissed off. If I just don't understand some something. Why did you say this today? Or whatever, right? I have a space without guilt or shame or anything else about worrying about interrupting the meeting? I have a space to freely speak about that. Right. Right. Exactly. I did it. Yes. I think it's a good thing. Alex Senegal: 27:08 Yeah, so that component alone, really is very powerful means a lot to me. And I think it also is one of the key components where our board is a powerful board. Yeah. Clay Tumey: 27:25 understatement, but yeah, I'll just say Yeah. Yeah. There's some some some rock stars in there, dude. Alex Senegal: 27:33 Yeah, yeah. Well had to say yeah, that means I have to say, Yeah, I'm one. Yeah. Clay Tumey: 27:40 I mean, who doesn't believe that? Alex Senegal: 27:42 Yeah, it's powerful. And the thing is, what makes it so powerful is the love that each one of us have. And it's this thread that we're all threaded and knitted together, to bring that love towards the purpose of the Enneagram Prison Project. Clay Tumey: 27:58 Yeah, you know, I'm gonna ask a question this might get might get both of us in trouble if there's an answer, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. And just, I'm curious, and no pressure to answer if you don't want to. Has there ever been a moment in one of the board meetings? Where where there was a good idea? The intention was in the right place, and all of it seemed okay. And you just went hold on this? Yeah.

You know, and I'm not I'm not you know, what I'm asking you. So basically, where you say how to this. This is not speaking to the people that we're serving, or what or anything like that. Well, Alex Senegal: 28:44 let me say this here. I am so sure about this one component that EPP is going to put together. And it's going to be EPS is not going to be EPP joining together with some other something that's already established. I'm so serious. And I'm so determined. And I know that this is the way that we're supposed to do it. I just know it in my spirit. And so I really had to stand up for that. Yeah. And I And yeah, and I found actually to be told I was really excited and really determined and had the strength but the strength came forward and it was a lot of energy that came forward to when I'm presenting it. It kind of got I was presented a little aggressively when but it wasn't because I was mad but it is a lot of energy came forth man where I just really wanted understood that we're gonna we're gonna get this this component, we're gonna get this this next component for EPP because it's is needed. Yeah, and it's really, really gonna make a big difference. Clay Tumey: 29:58 And I I know people listening Energy St. Clay, please ask him what the hell is he talking about? Yeah, and that's Alex Senegal: 30:05 standby stay to Clay Tumey: 30:12 the bullet. I don't think anything there needs to get added to that. As I recall, I tried, I would suck if I was like a Hollywood Reporter because I don't, I don't like digging. I like talking to people, but I don't like being nosy. I think anything beyond that is nosy. So thanks for sharing that. Thank you. So moving ahead a few more years. Of course, COVID happened that screwed up a lot of things we did. And it also provided a place for us to be able to do a lot of things. Right. And, um, I'll skip through a lot of you know, the public programming the Zooms all that stuff. And I want to fast forward to May of 2022 I believe it was May was it may or may have maybe been June. Yeah. Last summer at some point a little less than a year ago. When we flew to the other side of the world, Alex Senegal: 30:56 man, they gave me a passport. Yeah, yeah, cuz and I'm saying this because I had gotten denied getting a passport for for a long time. And by got that passport, and yeah, we had a trip over there to Sweden. The other side of the world man going through the woods at London. Heathrow. That place is crazy. That's crazy. But it exists. Yeah. To me. It only existed on on a movie because that's the first Clay Tumey: 31:27 time leaving America and first time. It's a long time we sit on a plane for a big ol boy. Alex Senegal: 31:31 Yeah, it was a long time wasn't too enthused about getting on the plane. Too soon after that hit me. Clay Tumey: 31:36 Did you fly by yourself? Or did you go with was that I answered. Alex Senegal: 31:42 Y'all there? Yeah. Renee. Was

Renee. It is. Clay Tumey: 31:47 I want to say when I got there first he Alex Senegal: 31:49 got there first. Yeah, he was already there. He was already there. And then Miss Susan and I. Clay Tumey: 31:53 Yeah. So you didn't go on accompanies? No. But it's still a little. It's a new experience. Alex Senegal: 31:59 Man. I just flew by myself the first time right. Yesterday. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Susan is Susan you my norm? is Susan, hang on. I need. Clay Tumey: 32:15 Hopefully we broke that pattern this week. And as we talked about got but going back to that trip, what? What was it? Like? I mean, talk about anything that sticks out to you, whether it's the trip itself, or when were there at all the people were at the conference, the pizza place we went to with Martone? I mean, anything, anything that pops out about that trip for you? Alex Senegal: 32:34 Well, yeah, tripping is, the whole trip was exciting, you know, a lot of things. A lot of things can come to mind. Gotta give a lot of thought. But really, what really sticks out though, is, here we are at this conference, here we are doing what we will we just do is nothing special. But what I learned and what I found, and what I witnessed is that it don't matter if we're in the United States, they don't matter. We always Sweden, no matter where we add, the Enneagram Prison Project goes forward. And it makes an impact. And it was a huge impact. People were really moved, they were really interested. Now, some people had never even heard of us. But they never forget us. Right. And so that was really powerful. That whole conference. It was like the beginning of him. In person conference. Again, it wasn't big. It was it was it was cool. It was a cool game Clay Tumey: 33:33 in the presentation that we did. But we I mean, Susan, you, Renee and me. There's a video presentation on the screen, Susan talks through a lot of the basics of who we are and what we do. And then also the three of us ambassadors share openly about our experiences, both on the inside now, how the Enneagram has helped us. And there were a few people there who knows we've seen this before. And like you said, there were some new folks, the reaction in that situation is so such a wide variety of of emotions, reactions, thoughts, it's really kind of a trip to talk with people in a room about something that can be so personal or so distant from their experience. Right. Yeah, like that. And I think I think a few folks are just heartbroken at the reality of what prison is. Alex Senegal: 34:28 Right? And at think they really the fact then how broken were we are will that they learned that we were you know, and how open we are to let them know that race really, you know, it's amazing. So it's not a it's not an easy thing to do. But we do that and I have to tell we do it and we make it look easy, but it's not Clay Tumey: 34:56 well, what's hard about it why what is because some people might not understand You speak very well to your experience, and to details that are tough to even listen to. I can't imagine how they can seem easy to share. But what is going on inside of you? When. And I'll preface this by saying we can edit anything we talk about. So if I say more than you're comfortable with, we can cut it later. Yeah. But how is it? So? From my view, I watch you. And it seems like you have quite a bit of ease and comfort and sharing that you had alcohol in your bottle, right? As a small toddler. Alex Senegal: 35:33 Right? What thing it does for me, one is it brings me healing, it brings me healing is by no mean to demean my mother. Because she's, she's dealing with her own style, you know, and that's what she had to go through. That's what she was going through, but it helps. That's my healing. Is my truth is specs. And is, it's not uncommon, it really wasn't uncommon thing, you know, yeah. So the more the more I can speak to it. Yeah, it is, the stronger I get, you know, and the deal is, and it brings me healing and brings me forgiveness, you know, I have given this up for my mother forgiveness for myself, you know, and then it helps me realize and understand and accept how much I had to overcome in life. Yeah. Yeah. Clay Tumey: 36:28 Does it make it easier to kind of cut yourself some slack a little bit? Alex Senegal: 36:34 Yeah, what's the deal? Is it when lead and compassion come forward? You know, don't just let me cuz just everybody, man, yeah. Everybody, that that and that's why I you know, usable, love, love will conquer, understand, this is just not a scripture, or something written on paper. This is something that can be put into action, and then you can really see our outcome. Love conquers all thing. You know? Yeah. And it gives you when you can have a compassion for yourself for what you've been through, I'm able to give that compassion to others for what they're going through. Yeah. You know, and to be a difference maker. You know, it don't have to be just me somebody in the Enneagram community or somebody incarcerated. It can be the homeless person right down the corner. Yeah, you know, the compassion will flow out, you know, my favorite saying is, you know, that the river life flows from the inside out, right. You know, because if it's a pool or river, a compassion inside of me to flow towards this Oh, entire world. You know, Clay Tumey: 37:52 what is? What is the most difficult thing about being an ambassador? We love I don't know why it's funny. I mean, there's things do come up. There's a lot of good. First of all, yeah, it's there's a lot of what's good about being an ambassador, we can have that conversation forever. But are there ever days where it's like, well, I don't know. I won't even ask the question. I'll, I'll share it with you that there are times where I'm like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I'm tired. I've talked about my ship for so long, right? That

I'm tired. And I'm tired. I'm tired of of a man. I've learned how to not judge myself. And it's still tough sometimes. And to be honest, sometimes I'm just tired, people patting me on the back. Because I don't feel like it's I don't feel like I deserve all that. You feel like you just do what you're supposed to do. I feel like I feel like I've done a lot of work. And I'm happy with what I've done and who I've become and who I keep growing into hopefully. But there are days where I don't want to talk about this shit. Let me hear about you. You know, I want to say that to other people, like I've been giving a lot so that's what comes up for me Alex Senegal: 39:07 I get tired it does. It requires a lot a lot of energy it required sometimes I get tired of just dealing with other ambassadors No, no it just really because you know you start to go by and it I don't never get to the point where I don't want to be an ambassador. But it can I can get tired or you can't meet all the requirements or all the events or all the things that then if you if I was to try to just make all this stuff, or you'd fall over i Yeah. And so few months you'd be out burnt totally. So he was so no, I don't do that part. So when because I don't do that. That's why I energize or take my braked energy, but it takes a lot of energy. But I love it. I love it, you know, not to mention that, you know, being an ambassador, and it took me places that I never ever would have went Clay Tumey: 40:13 to Utah, the other side of the world over in Europe, I'm about to run down the list of places you've been because Alex Senegal: 40:21 I can remember it. I'm gonna go to Utah, but one of the things about Utah, and you wasn't at that one when we went to the top of this mountain on the eagle release, right? Yeah. Then took to the ski lifts to get to the top of his mountain now muscle scale. Yeah, I bought my first time. Clay Tumey: 40:36 Yeah, yeah. Oh, another first. Alex Senegal: 40:39 What do you what are you doing? Wow. Oh, shoot. I'm gonna horse. Clay Tumey: 40:45 Put that horse in traction afterwards. Probably. Alex Senegal: 40:47 Yeah, he's Dumbo twice rode horses three Clay Tumey: 40:58 days find out that horse said hold on, man. You give me a ride. Alex Senegal: 41:01 Right? So everybody else had their horse. And they rode the horse. Every time they went out there. They were on the same horse. Yeah, but every time I went there to try to find a different Clay Tumey: 41:13 was isn't what I want to know. I want to know that you actually heard a horse when when they found out you were about to write it. I want to know that there's a horse out there that went and got the kit. Are you fucking kidding me? Right? That wouldn't happen. No. Okay. Well, Alex Senegal: 41:27 I tell you, I can't remember his name. But he was a bad horse. Hay was powerful. He was powerful. So it was interesting. Clay Tumey: 41:36 That

was Utah. Wyoming. I know you've been to Minnesota, Minnesota, Colorado. Alex Senegal: 41:42 I know. I've been to Colorado for MPP even I didn't Clay Tumey: 41:47 make that one. Okay, Ohio. Cincinnati, Cincinnati course the Bay Area, you know, which is where? This is where you live, right? And then of course, Stockholm, Sweden. See? What's left. It's where do you want to go? I want to go to Ireland. You know, I think we know people who we know people who kick it around there somewhere. Alex Senegal: 42:08 Hey, that's place I've always wanted to go my whole life. I don't know. Yeah, I guess I'm a black Irish. Clay Tumey: 42:14 I mean, you read green right now. You literally have on a green jumpsuit. Everybody can see. Yeah, and gold to go with it. So Alex Senegal: 42:21 yeah. So that's why I always ever since you just want to stick out even more. I just want to see all that. It's like It's like it's beautiful. Yeah, I know. It never been but I know it. Clay Tumey: 42:32 Somebody is listening right now who can make that happen? I'm gonna cross my fingers that it does. You need to go to Ireland first. for like a month or two. Whoa, you can work remotely right? Yeah, you weren't. I mean, the Zoom is still working. Zoom still goes. Get your ass over to Ireland, man. And it'd be nice. What is that? Is that actually doable? If if, if the opportunity came up was like, hey, and I got an opportunity to go over there for a few weeks or a month or whatever. Would you be able to get away to actually do that? Or do you have do you have things back home need daily care? Alex Senegal: 43:04 I have a grandson but he may. Yeah, well yo right now but yeah, now he's he? He's 20 Oh, Clay Tumey: 43:16 yeah, he's doing okay. So that's not a restricting all eating set out a limiting factor. Alex Senegal: 43:21 I'll get him set up. Clay Tumey: 43:23 So we I mean, 45 brief minutes. We caught up on the first eight years and we're in year nine now. I think. Laurie, you meant to leave. Are you about to leave? Okay, we might pause my but I want to talk about this this week. Right? And but we'll pause real quick to say bye cool. Hey, y'all, it's clay. And we paused the recording here to say goodbye to our friend Laura, who happened to be there on site where I was recording with Alex and she had to go so we paused to say goodbye. And it's actually a really good spot to just stop and share a few words of appreciation for program manager and EPP guide Laura Hooper. Laura has been on the podcast before and I don't mean 20 seconds ago when she was saying by she was on episode I want to say 12 ish. I don't remember the exact episode. I do remember the title of that episode. It was called. Not a supposed to be a gram. The list of things I appreciate about Laura. It's quite lengthy. And I will I will summarize and say that at the top of that list is joy. She is one of the most joyful people I know. And the reason that I probably enjoy that so much is joy is not something that I naturally seek. It's not something that I just automatically experience. And I need a bit of a catalyst somebody to kind of spark that in me and remind me that that is a thing in life worth experiencing and worth having. And so I absolutely appreciate that. about Laura, she has easily one of my favorite laughs in the entire world. And in addition to that, and plus much, much more she has what I could only define as a glow that just kind of follows her around. And again, not exactly something my experience on my own, and I absolutely love being in the same space with her whether it's on the inside in prison and a class there, or just out in the world, or even on a zoom call it it transmits just the same through the internet 1000s of miles away. Absolutely love being in the same space being a part of the same organization being a part of any project that Laura is a part of, and this world and especially EPP is a much better place with her. And don't just take my word for it. Here are a few other folks from the project to share a few thoughts on Laura Hooper. Unknown: 45:54 Whenever Laura's Jodi Norton: 45:55 on a call, I just feel so instantly supported and seen and at ease. I love Laura so much she just brings so many things she brings ease she brings excitement she brings love she brings her heart Yeah, I I just feel like EPP would not be the same without her there. And I don't think I would have had the same experience without working with her. I just really love her energy and her enthusiasm. And she just has so much knowledge and experience. And I don't know, it's she's just an amazing human. And I was just watching the fireside chat and Laura's input, there was so so valuable. Just being able to speak to the guide experience and what EPP needs and what she needs to be supported in her role as a guide. Just hearing her talk about it has brought a lot of light around I'm sure to many people, even to myself, I'm not a guide, but just brings a lot of light around what that experience needs and requires and and also what it gives back. So yeah, I just really appreciated that. Laura, you're amazing fall, I have to say love you. Renee Lopez: 47:45 I will start off by saying that I do have a bias because Laura is one of my best friends. But what I really appreciate about her as as long as I've known her from the day that I have met her she has always been very open and curious about the people sitting in front of her. And this real wanting to know and understand the individuals and people that are in her presence. And there's a million other things as well her ability to hold so many things in her mind when it comes to scheduling and all the things that a program manager needs to know have over the years just simply amazed me. So I have lots of love and appreciation for Laura Robin Grant: 48:46 I appreciate Laura Hooper so much. Laura is and has been such a

great friend to me. Since I began working with with EPP 2018 She radiates joy and kindness and enthusiasm and positivity. And she embodies our vision to free people all over the world from the prison's of our own making. She is a an amazing guide and beautiful human being. And I'm so honored and blessed to work alongside of her. Unknown: 49:25 Laura was my first contact with the EPP I knew I was interested in the mission but after speaking with her I was all in to be part of the organization. She has this interesting mix of care and warmth and kindness this big hearted inclusiveness but mixed with a clear eyed honesty and integrity. I kind of shaken her boots strength, this quality of being able to stay with it With her values with her commitment, and with herself. She's the rock. She's a rock for EPP, she shows up, she shows up for all of us, for her students. And most importantly, I think and so beautifully she shows up for herself. I always feel seen by Laura. I feel love in her presence and I feel loved. And I am always inspired by her. Laura Hooper is one of the most beautiful souls on the planet. And I just consider it a great honor that I know her and then I get to work with her at EPP a appreciate the hell out of her. And the things that I appreciate most her not the things that she does. And she does a whole heck of a lot at EPP to support the work that we're doing here. But the things that I appreciate most about her is is her presence, like how she shows up in the world, how she shows up for herself, so that she can show up for EPP so she can show up for our students so she can show up for her family. I love you so much, Laura, I appreciate you. And I'm so grateful to be sharing this time and space with you. Susan Olesek: 51:34 I am a sucker for a seven and I fell for Laura a long time ago. She came to us when we were really tiny. And she sent us a spreadsheet saying these are all the places that I could come in and support EPP and this is why you should have me. And we didn't get it. Not that we didn't get Laura but like we literally didn't receive it. And I I shudder to think where would we be if we hadn't finally opened the email and received all this stuff that Laura had to bring. And so yes, she has all that it's uh, it's funny, the spreadsheet thing. I'm sure she's chuckling listening to that. But Laura is so much more than a spreadsheet, it's like you can't actually calculate or predict or encapsulate what she brings in heart, and the sober ways she's cultivated and honed in on being able to stay with herself and be a guide to other people holding on to themselves. I mean, that is over seven. That's the, that's the gift of Laura, Rick Olesek: 52:49 Laura Hooper, what to say, Laura is such a beautiful soul. She's my Type Seven partner in crime here. And we do so much together and get to be in so many spaces and places together. And she shows up with this unbelievably beautiful heart. And of course, she's Uber

competent, and, and is able to move just so easily through all the things that we need to do any BP in the back office. But she also is is is a guide and someone who has a incredible heart for this work. And just to witness her show up time and time again. And with her heart on display, and to be able to hold space for others, whether it happens to be others in the project, you know, from an operational perspective, or just or others on the inside, just holding space and being able to really connect just absolutely love having being able to work beside you know, side by side with Laura, and have been for so many years now. And it's been a true blessing Clay Tumey: 54:17 we both kind of blown through the first was that eight, seven or eight years 898 ish years of your existence with EPP and where we are. I want to talk about this week where we are right now we're talking speaking of traveling, we're at neither one of our hometowns. Yeah, I'm from Dallas. You're from Oakland, San Jose. Okay. I say I will start that over. I can edit that. I'm not going to I think writers and I think of Oakland. Yeah, but they don't have a team in San Jose. I guess no, like a hockey. But you're Yeah, you don't care about these digs. Like they have it in Ireland. So you're good. Um, yeah, we're in San Diego right now. Right. And it's a really nice place. Lovely. We're in a nice, pretty nice Airbnb. We're at the dinner table. Yeah. I like it here. It's cool here. But this ain't the best place. This is the best thing about this place. Right? Right. What are we in San Diego for Alex Senegal: 55:20 RJ D? State Prison? Yeah, you know, we get to go inside these walls. It's um, it's a high level of security prison. And we get to go in there and do what we do best. And as helpers proceed this awful, awesome gift that we live help people we've freed from the prisoner their own making. Yeah, you know, and help people understand why they do what they do. You know, I remember one time, Susan was share, you know, how, you know, you do something? commit some kill somebody. But we'll follow that is that's not who I am. Right. It was his absolute true statement. You know, but why did you do it, though? This is the thing. And so that's his great gift that we get opportunity to go help present these individuals who are residents of the state in these facilities. Clay Tumey: 56:31 And a lot of a lot of times, often, I guess, and county jails or even in prison in general. Like, it's a very common thing for folks to be locked up for drugs, or distribution for for using for owning possessing whatever. There's, there's a whole lot of reasons that people get locked up. And it's, is it different to you? Doesn't matter? Does it feel different? Whatever, when the room is, has a little bit more violence in their past where it's not, they didn't just get locked up for a few joints or a or a bag of weed or whatever, where they are there for killing somebody? Yeah, Alex Senegal: 57:09 no, that's that's not you know, different at all. It says matter of fact, that's exactly who needs this. That's exactly who needs this program. You know, um, we're here today, to even identify to the thought patterns are hurting someone I don't, I won't have I don't have those. The understanding why someone had the thought pattern or hurting someone, I totally, totally resonate with it, because I used to operate that way. So I'll totally get there. And that's why that's why they need to know about the new ground. That's why they need to learn about themselves as well. Because without introducing this knowledge, this wisdom, this tool to them, it doesn't marry, they don't, they don't stand a chance, you just might as well keep on because they go back and they do it again. But when they come to know why I do what I do, then you can you know, awareness brings about correction. Yeah. And so then, given the guidance of support, you know, to make these corrections man, people whose lives are being changed, you know, and then to, for me to sit in this circle, and listen to these gentlemen. articulate this Enneagram what they're learning. I mean, they can put it into words, man, you know, and have the awareness and the light, and the understanding that they're gaining. And this is just within days, you know, is unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I want to backtrack just a little bit real quick and talk and see is mentioned I just want to mention last week, when we had graduation in San Quentin, yes, yes. That I mean, huge and matter of fact, last week, um, can't put dates to it. But January, was a Wednesday of last week, Wednesday. Last one. Okay. So let's say the 18th to 20/25 23rd was like a historic week for EPP you know, yeah. Because we had the graduation at San Quentin Clay Tumey: 59:34 on Wednesday, the 18th January 18, January 18. Alex Senegal: 59:38 With Chuck went back in another one of our ambassadors or one of our best who went back into the front door, you know, of a institution that he did time in our institution where they were still people that he did time with, right they were officers knew Him Who knows, like, you know, either harassing or they had a cordial understanding, and he they At a sea Hill, industry close in street clothes shining like a new nickel per new Penny rarely. Anyone remotely do it anywhere. But yeah, but you know, and they get to see, they get to see not the finished product. But what the work do, yeah, a product that is putting work in action, you know, and then we had Sue, going back into into San San Mateo institution or facility was she was was a residence when she went back in by herself, to present to teach to be a guide of the Enneagram. Historical, she was living, breathing proof, living, breathing proof, other lesson plans that she was gifted, you know, and then we had also we had Dustin? Yeah, go away. Oh, in Belgium, yeah. into a facility, you know, to represent and to

articulate and to help people get an understanding and to give support to the guy that also went over there. Very powerful. Very powerful. Big deal. Yes. You know, so we as ambassadors, you know, we're in this not when label ambassador, but we really go forth to represent what the Enneagram Prison Project is all about. You know, my bishop used to say, we got to put some hands and feet to our faith. So we put in hands and feet and heart to and our ambassadors. Yeah. Unknown: 1:01:41 So there were. So it's, I think, I think a lot of times, I maybe this is just my perspective, I think we get a pass from a lot of people. Cuz we're out here, we're doing better and all that. And I think Clay Tumey: 1:01:55 it's maybe some of it is deserved or even earned, I guess. Because, you know, we've been out a lot of us have been out for several years now. Right and have stayed out. And that can be tricky sometimes. But we've done it. And so I but we get upset, we do get a pass, we absolutely get a pass a lot of times, or maybe there's a better way to say it. But people look at us and go wow, that's great. They get you favor. Yeah, exactly. There we go. Favor privilege. There's a million ways to say it. And it's not always true for folks on the inside to get that same benefit. And, and I want to ask a question. I've asked this of others before, but I'm curious how this hit you. What What would you say to the to the listener who's hearing this? And going I'm Alex, I'm glad you're doing well. I'm glad all this is awesome. And I believe in you. And this is great. But that dude is doing a life sentence for murder. Who might not even ever get out? Why are we wasting our time on that guy? Alex Senegal: 1:02:53 I could have easily been a dude, I was it. Do? You know the deal is just because you murdered somebody, Dominus, who you are. But if we look at hurting people hurt people. So we can get that individual who's hurting people to look at his hurt and to get be healed from his hurt, then hurting people? He's not hurting them or he's not that person. Yeah, you know, then we can come to a place the individual hopefully move to a place of self forgiveness. You know, near there still consequences. Yeah, yes. There's still a family that's missing a person from the dinner table. Yeah, there's other things is taking praise, but that person can be healed today. And go forward. You know, everybody, every every, every living soul deserves a chance. A word is called salvation. Yeah. Total forgiveness. Clay Tumey: 1:03:58 It's an unpleasant question. I pose it in a way that's not fun to hear on purpose, right? Because there are, there are people that and it's and I don't, by the way, to be clear, I'm not mocking them or being I'm not shitting on them for asking the question. Because for a long time, I thought that way, fuck that guy. Right. And it's a it's a point of growth for me to accept this reality is that folks can folks, it's not even fair to say that they can change in my opinion. Sometimes it's more like, how can we help them go back to who they are, who they are. And I And I've said this on the inside, I say this, every time I get a chance to I genuinely believe and I it's it's more important for me to stress this for the incarcerated just because of their history often. I truly believe that people are good. I think that inside of us all, to put it more clearly. Is is goodness looking for a place to happen. I just believe that and you can stomp on that hurt and wadded up mess with it and scar it in sometimes. Sometimes the good stuff doesn't quite happen and the painful stuff happens instead, right? And I still believe there is a point of healing where we can go back to that. Goodness waiting for a place to happen a Alex Senegal: 1:05:17 place to happen. Clay Tumey: 1:05:18 Is it true? Alex Senegal: 1:05:19 As Wainberg? Was he the brain the goodness ng Yeah, to go through the pain. The air go through the pain and the belief that the pain is gonna be so great. He's gonna kill me. Well, we let's see. And I don't think he's going to aim another analogy for pain. What's their pain? Well, pain. I never gave a witness childbirth. I never gave him pain brains for life. And for my understanding, that's probably one of the greatest pain the human body can ever go through. And it brings forth life and brings forth life. So that's my analogy. We're paying the pain that we think he's gonna kill us. It's gonna bring forth life. And it's worth it. It's worth it. Right? Clay Tumey: 1:06:09 So in a class, whether it's whether it's on the inside, whether it's public programming, wherever it is, there's no there's no promise of sunshine and rainbows. I mean, there may get there eventually. But it's not a fluffy, fun thing, process to go through. And it's gonna stay in just a couple of hours. She's in there. I don't want to listen to this. I don't want to watch that. I don't want to think about this. I don't want to revisit that. Right. Alex Senegal: 1:06:39 Right. Right. And so there's a part of the process, you know, and to hold those individuals will compassion. Okay, well, let's, let's just hold and talk about what you want to do. Okay, well, it is a table big enough right here to put all this other stuff on the side. And that's what then that's, that's the compassion man. And we get to, we get together today. We get to give it full force, man, and it was on display today. You know, on the inside, and on the inside, individual found a soft spot. The lamp was all that hurt and pain he'd been carrying. He couldn't cut off the spigot man. Right, you know. Clay Tumey: 1:07:23 And if you want to share more about that you can we can skip the name and share as much as we want. Alex Senegal: 1:07:28 Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it was a beautiful thing. As much as he made it sound all distorted and all lost and all confused. All I seen was an individual that

really found a spot where he can really speak and just unload all this trauma that he's been holding on to. And as we notice, throughout the whole core, and at the end you said it beds covered around. Clay Tumey: 1:08:00 Yeah. You know, yeah, no, it's the Alex Senegal: 1:08:04 last eight mini me. Clay Tumey: 1:08:06 i i Yeah, it's a bummer sometimes that we can't say names. Yeah, sometimes that toughest person that when I say tough, I don't mean strength and stubborn. Well, I was just mean that that that woman, it's just hard. Some some nuts are hard to crack. Right. Right. But you know that once you crack them? That's, that's a future Ambassador right there. Alex Senegal: 1:08:28 Yeah. But would that purchase sound like he was a Clay Tumey: 1:08:33 bit so Exactly. Alex Senegal: 1:08:40 Yeah. But yeah, Clay Tumey: 1:08:43 I we're a little over an hour here. We're getting long, I only have two more questions. One of them's pretty specific, and then one of them is more open ended. Going back to kind of chatting about this a minute ago about people deserve a second chance and being there for folks who are wanting to change and all that goes along with that. If, if and I guess just trying to imagine somebody listening to this, who's kind of on the fence about whether or not to get involved, to help to be a part of EPP and maybe they know something about the Enneagram maybe they don't know jack shit, but they know that they care about people. And we have lots of places to serve, where we can help people, right? And so to that person, if they're asking, hey, what can I do? Who do I even ask, what's the question? What am I even wanting to know? I just want to help and I don't know what to do. What would you say to that person? Alex Senegal: 1:09:39 Well, you said it best. Maybe they know the Enneagram. Maybe they don't and even if they do know the Enneagram. My thing is, is we have the online courses where the I think he's getting ready to start and we will continue on just not as often. But you got to get involved with the online course. So you can be I get it get introduced to our culture is a culture it when we embody things, it's a coach's a way of life. And so to be able to understand why we do what we do, why we teach, like we teach, while we get the compassion that we give it, why, why we are what we are, where you had to be take these, you know, online courses, or you get involved with the Enneagram Prison Project classes somewhere where it's offer. So you can learn our culture, that that's absolute first thing. Clay Tumey: 1:10:35 Can I email you? Alex Senegal: 1:10:37 Somebody? You're Clay Tumey: 1:10:41 forwarded to somebody? I assume we equate and and for the sake of clarity, I'll say that there is info at Enneagram prison. project.org. Right. Probably the best place to start online and purchase Prison Project. Yeah. And if they want to holler at Alex, it's the same

except Alex. And so that is that info, or me claims that have been played Enneagram prison project.org One final question. First of all, thank you for sitting and chatting with me. This was kind of spur of the moment I did it earlier today. Yeah, but you normally people have more than a few hours notice. Before we sit down and get the mics out and record some stuff for quite a few people to hear. So thank you for that. Alex Senegal: 1:11:21 He worked on it. Yeah, you fancy man. This is this is cool setup. It's pretty neat. Clay Tumey: 1:11:25 All the pretty colors and mice got the headphones. You can hear the difference to go go listen when this goes up. And you can hear the difference between this and when that episode one that episode one was, was fun, but it wasn't the level of professional production. Right and so we're we're on another level but that it's all jokes aside, all silliness aside, thank you for sit down and sharing so much of yourself, which is something you're very good at. I enjoy it. I have a lot of respect for you. I care greatly for you. You're my brother, as far as I'm concerned saying you did. And and I just I love the hell out of you, man. I'm really glad that you're around. And the world is better with Alex in it. Thank you. I want to leave you with the last word, I don't really have a question. I'll just say that anything that you want to share, and there's I have 30 Something hours left on recording time. So don't worry about time. Anything you want to say. Any any last words, I'm going to I'm literally going to turn my mic off and just turn it over to you. Alex Senegal: 1:12:23 Thank you, Claire. Appreciate it. And I'm not gonna say too much. But the one thing I will say is we live in in such a hurting society is this so much abuse, so much hurt so much pain, and to where we have more people giving up on people than we have people really want to hurt help people. Because there's that loss, they don't know what to do is seemed like a bigger hopeless case. But for me, I want to always be somebody else's hope. I want to be somebody else's hope because somebody was my hope once upon a time. I was a hopeless case, once upon a time, and I'll never forget that. And it will. And it was other people who was my hope. And so they stayed that away until this transformation took place. Now I have that responsibility. And I believe that the more lies we continue to touch, the more hope we can continue to just shower, this dying decaying world. We're just going to be the light and will be that beacon of light that will help Swanley so to keep from shipbreaking somewhere, and if we will only get one so we take that. But I do know because this time we get we do is so powerful. So many more souls are going to be saved, they're going to be restored, they're going to be healed. And it's a ripple effect is to definitely real effect. So that's why I believe in Enneagram Prison Project. And that's why I believe we continue to go forth and my faith you know, and this helps me go forward in my faith and can make a difference in his world. I'm not gonna give up on this world wouldn't give up on me. Clay Tumey: 1:14:34 More information about EPP please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.