התמלול המלא של Make It Exist, Then Make It Good: Graham McNeill on Writing, Mastery, and The Expected Path

of like Norman Foster's architecture, Zaha Hadid and stuff like this. 00:05:32.872 --> 00:05:34.194 But you were not doing that. 00:05:34.194 --> 00:05:37.468 You were doing very, you were designing toilets. 00:05:37.468 --> 00:05:42.949 and factories, which are essential and need to be built, but it wasn't what I kind of got into the field to do. 00:05:42.971 --> 00:05:47.132 And at one point, I remember just thinking, I can't do this for the rest of my life. 00:05:47.132 --> 00:05:48.651 It's just not what I want to do. 00:05:48.651 --> 00:05:57.675 I want to create stories of wizards and goblins and spaceships, but you know, who the hell is going to pay you for that? 00:05:57.814 --> 00:06:02.565 Still, it wasn't lodging in my mind that clearly I had read stories of all this stuff, but... 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:07.100 and people had written them and created them and drawn them, but I never thought it was something I could do. 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:11.259 then there was the very day that I had that sort of moment of clarity. 00:06:11.259 --> 00:06:24.000 went down to the little newsagent store just underneath our office, because we were up on the top of this building, and I picked up a copy of White Dwarf, which is Games Workshop's monthly hobby magazine. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:31.800 And there was a little quarter page advert in the bottom right of one of the pages looking for a staff writer in the Games Workshop design studio in Nottingham. 00:06:32.115 --> 00:06:42.187 and having come straight off the thought of, oh God, I can't do this for the rest of my life, seeing that, it felt like a, you know, a sign from the gods to try and go for it. 00:06:42.485 --> 00:06:46.894 And obviously it was the right call, right? 00:06:46.896 --> 00:06:51.620 There are many people who have read your books that are grateful for you taking that step and making that feeling. 00:06:51.620 --> 00:06:56.504 and I thought, you know, the worst that can happen is they say no, so might as well. 00:06:56.964 --> 00:07:01.528 So, yeah, I applied for it, did various writing tests, down for a couple of interviews. 00:07:01.528 --> 00:07:18.329 um And yeah, I was fortunate enough that they offered me the job because, you know, something we touched on a little earlier before we started recording is that, you know, as much as talent as you may think you have or actually have, luck. 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:25.776 plays a huge portion in the right place at the right time and being prepared enough to seize that luck when it arises. 00:07:25.776 --> 00:07:33.983 And I'd been writing stories just for fun, ever since I picked up that copy of Warlock of Firetop Mountain for the last 20 odd years. 00:07:33.983 --> 00:07:37.817 So I was with no expectation of being able to do anything with it. 00:07:37.817 --> 00:07:44.903 I'm still trying to hone my craft and be better and learn every day to do something better than I've done it before. 00:07:45.221 --> 00:07:45.959 So. 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.259 It was one of those moments where I was like, yeah, this is going forward. 00:07:49.259 --> 00:07:50.949 That's That's so powerful. 00:07:50.949 --> 00:07:56.262 That piece, that idea of putting in that constant effort, writing it, it filled your bucket. 00:07:56.262 --> 00:07:57.134 It brought you joy. 00:07:57.134 --> 00:08:01.526 You enjoyed the experience and you did what you loved. 00:08:01.526 --> 00:08:05.350 But then all that time, was, was thankless in its own right. 00:08:05.350 --> 00:08:07.550 Unless you shared it with someone who appreciated it. 00:08:07.550 --> 00:08:15.086 But the idea being that you put in the reps, you did the, you did the work so that when the opportunity did arise, right? 00:08:15.086 --> 00:08:21.117 When that luck, When you threw those dice and they came up sixes, it gave you the chance to say, now's that time. 00:08:21.117 --> 00:08:22.247 And you took that. 00:08:22.377 --> 00:08:26.732 quote that's think often given to Arnold Palmer, but I'm not sure if it is him. 00:08:26.732 --> 00:08:29.694 The one about the, you know, the more I practice, the luckier I get. 00:08:29.694 --> 00:08:33.868 You know, I just I wrote because I loved it. 00:08:33.868 --> 00:08:38.154 I still do, you know, decades later, I still write because I love it. 00:08:38.154 --> 00:08:40.833 I'm just lucky enough that I get paid for it now. 00:08:40.833 --> 00:08:47.496 But, you know, I put the time in, I wrote and I listened to what people said when they read them and tried always. 00:08:47.496 --> 00:09:05.501 not to be the defensive, like, well, I think I wrote this because this way, and you're wrong for not thinking it's the right way, being able to have that sort of open, what do call it, the growth mindset now to be aware that not everything you're going to do is perfect out the gate. 00:09:05.501 --> 00:09:10.567 In fact, 99 % of what you do is not going to be perfect straight out the gate. 00:09:10.567 --> 00:09:12.548 And a lot of new writers struggle with that. 00:09:12.548 --> 00:09:15.764 They think that this is the bee's knees. 00:09:15.764 --> 00:09:21.008 And if somebody comes to give them a criticism on it, they feel like they've been stabbed in the heart. 00:09:21.008 --> 00:09:24.100 Because writing is such a personal thing. 00:09:24.100 --> 00:09:35.878 There's a lot of people who say it's like you're opening a vein and bleeding on the page and there's something of you in everything you create, whether it's music, art, writing, songs, poetry, whatever it is. 00:09:35.878 --> 00:09:40.042 And somebody might say, well, I didn't like that very much or didn't work for me. 00:09:40.042 --> 00:09:42.062 It's easy to take it as a... 00:09:42.486 --> 00:10:04.885 not personal attack, but as something that wounds you when it's like, actually, no, this is somebody, if they're coming at this feedback with the right mentality of I'm trying to help you make this as good as it can possibly be, when

you accept that, as that's what this is being given to me as, as a gift, then your skill set will improve immeasurably. 00:10:05.148 --> 00:10:07.309 Oh, Graham, so solid. 00:10:07.309 --> 00:10:08.652 That's incredibly powerful. 00:10:08.652 --> 00:10:15.558 And I agree completely when you have that open mindset and you're willing to take constructive criticism when it's given as such, right? 00:10:15.558 --> 00:10:17.240 And it doesn't feel good, right? 00:10:17.240 --> 00:10:20.043 Even nice about it. 00:10:20.345 --> 00:10:21.024 It's still hard. 00:10:21.024 --> 00:10:28.924 m muscles to not immediately shut down and say, you didn't like it, there's something wrong with you. 00:10:28.924 --> 00:10:30.537 Well, you know, maybe not. 00:10:31.147 --> 00:10:36.249 So I think of that saying of uh you can't see the bottom of the pot through the boiling water, right? 00:10:36.249 --> 00:10:50.480 And if you allow your emotions to overwhelm you, whether it's regarding criticism or whether it's a product that you're selling that someone doesn't want, when you take things as a personal attack, at the end of the day, it only hurts you, right? 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:51.020 process. 00:10:51.020 --> 00:10:57.038 mean, even to this day, you still have to remind yourself and learn to be that person. 00:10:57.038 --> 00:11:00.000 Because not every day is the same. 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:02.724 Some days you're having a bad day, and you might take it that way. 00:11:02.724 --> 00:11:04.666 But it's a constant process. 00:11:04.666 --> 00:11:06.048 It's not like, well, I am there now. 00:11:06.048 --> 00:11:07.072 It is done. 00:11:07.072 --> 00:11:08.774 Mm hmm. 00:11:08.774 --> 00:11:18.432 And when you are and you have that ability then to sit back and let that set and listen, think, go through your own filter, listen to what that person has said. 00:11:18.432 --> 00:11:20.565 And then it doesn't have to be exactly what they said. 00:11:20.565 --> 00:11:22.496 It can be through your own perspective. 00:11:22.496 --> 00:11:22.706 Right. 00:11:22.706 --> 00:11:26.470 But take that criticism, take that uh information. 00:11:26.470 --> 00:11:26.789 Right. 00:11:26.789 --> 00:11:31.735 And then and then use that information to make your product better, to make your art better. 00:11:31.735 --> 00:11:32.615 Right. 00:11:32.956 --> 00:11:33.836 I love it. 00:11:33.836 --> 00:11:34.636 So. 00:11:35.859 --> 00:11:39.464 It's never alone, at least not based on my experience. 00:11:39.464 --> 00:11:49.339 And I'd love to know on your journey, the fellowship, friends, allies, people who've come along the road with you, who might you cite on your journey? 00:11:51.359 --> 00:11:53.019 I mean, how long have you got? 00:11:53.038 --> 00:12:05.893 I would not be here talking to you if it wasn't for a uh litany of people who have helped me along the way, either by mentoring me, referring me, me, taught me off a ledge, that sort of thing. 00:12:05.893 --> 00:12:19.246 Yeah,

I mean, when I first started at Games Workshop, my first bosses there were uh Thomas Pyrnan, Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe, Jervis Johnson, and they were... 00:12:19.562 --> 00:12:27.046 awesome, awesome mentors because I had been previously just doing this for my own self, for my own amusement. 00:12:27.147 --> 00:12:36.450 There was no such thing as a brief and I had to learn about writing to brief, to target, to word count, quality bar and so on and. 00:12:37.924 --> 00:12:54.174 That was a steep learning curve and those guys were absolutely fantastic in terms of what they taught me, how to work in this creative environment where there was still products with deadlines and parameters that you had to follow and so on. 00:12:54.383 --> 00:12:57.783 the things I learned from those guys along the way. 00:12:57.783 --> 00:13:05.442 And I can say I still work with Thomas and Andy and I still collaborate and stories with Gav and stuff. 00:13:06.082 --> 00:13:11.923 the friends I made at Games Workshop are like Phil Kelly, Aunt Reynolds. 00:13:11.923 --> 00:13:14.503 They are still friends that I have to this day. 00:13:14.503 --> 00:13:17.802 I worked with Aunt for many years at Riot Games. 00:13:18.763 --> 00:13:20.942 without them... 00:13:20.942 --> 00:13:28.082 helping me along the way, raining in my worst impulses, helping me to accept this or that. 00:13:28.082 --> 00:13:31.863 Yeah, those guys were brilliant and I've learned a lot from them. 00:13:32.576 --> 00:13:34.607 It's a beautiful thing right there, Graham. 00:13:34.607 --> 00:13:42.731 when I hear you share that, one of the things that I think of, you talk about, you've gone through, you've finally gone into something that you love. 00:13:42.731 --> 00:13:44.142 You're writing for Games Workshop. 00:13:44.142 --> 00:13:50.945 You've already spent years of your life writing and nurturing your craft. 00:13:51.105 --> 00:13:56.967 Then going on, you suddenly learn how much more you have to learn, right? 00:13:56.967 --> 00:13:59.293 And then being open to learning that. 00:13:59.293 --> 00:14:02.166 open to the guidance that's given to you, putting your own filter. 00:14:02.166 --> 00:14:03.976 I love how you talk about talking off the ledge, right? 00:14:03.976 --> 00:14:11.923 Sometimes we get so into something we don't see how far we're going and we need our friends in that fellowship to help pull us back and give us some perspective. 00:14:11.995 --> 00:14:22.177 Yeah, I mean, when first went, when I left Games Workshop, um one of the first people I turned to was a fellow writer called Dan Abnett. 00:14:22.278 --> 00:14:27.860 And Dan is a stellar writer and a wonderful human being. 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:32.041 I thought, well, he's made this freelance lifestyle work for him. 00:14:32.041 --> 00:14:36.221 So if I'm going to ask anybody for advice, would be, it's got to be him. 00:14:36.383 --> 00:14:58.167 And, you know, We talked quite regularly when I left Games Workshop and the advice

he gave me on structuring my day, how I would figure out being a freelancer, because when you don't have the nine to five of the office on you, crafting a routine and a self-discipline is key because I am the... 00:14:58.167 --> 00:15:01.740 It may not seem it from the amount of books I've done, but I'm a fundamentally quite lazy person. 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:04.291 I would quite like to stay in bed at the time. 00:15:04.291 --> 00:15:06.326 I would quite like to not do things. 00:15:06.326 --> 00:15:12.236 You know, as much as I love writing, there's times you just, maybe I'll make it up tonight, tomorrow. 00:15:12.236 --> 00:15:20.442 But when there's nobody cracking the whip on a daily basis, you know, clocking you into the office sort of thing, you are that guy. 00:15:20.442 --> 00:15:26.706 You are the person cracking the whip and figuring out how to motivate yourself to get the work done. 00:15:27.407 --> 00:15:31.596 put your ass in the chair every day, again, took some learning. 00:15:31.596 --> 00:15:36.807 And it's, again, like a lot of things we'll talk about today, it's an ongoing thing. 00:15:36.807 --> 00:15:38.730 You're always got to maintain that. 00:15:39.808 --> 00:15:40.749 Completely. 00:15:40.749 --> 00:15:49.177 And I'm curious, for anyone that is suffering and having a hard time finding that focus to sit in the chair, what are some of the things that you've done to help you? 00:15:49.774 --> 00:15:51.596 Ah, need to pay a mortgage. 00:15:51.596 --> 00:16:00.280 uh You know, a great motivator knowing that the bank manager is sitting at the end of the month going, you know, where's my money? 00:16:00.280 --> 00:16:08.725 aah But no, I mean, that's a sort of... 00:16:08.725 --> 00:16:12.998 In terms of like the craft, loving what you do is a great motivator. 00:16:12.998 --> 00:16:21.289 Because I love off times if a story isn't working for you, if you can't get the words on the page, nine times out of ten it's because there's something not right with it. 00:16:21.289 --> 00:16:28.474 It's because your earned instinct is telling you something's not right here and it's not flowing. 00:16:28.474 --> 00:16:34.548 I haven't done my due diligence to figure out what this scene is, what this plot is. 00:16:34.548 --> 00:16:45.082 it's the eternal sort of push and pull between the pantser and the plotter, whether you just want to just hit the page running and see where it takes you or you've got a detailed structure for that day. 00:16:45.082 --> 00:16:48.274 I vacillate between the two, but I'm... 00:16:48.428 --> 00:17:02.126 I like to have structure but one that is flexible enough to bend but the biggest thing I learned about it is because I thought, well, I need to do X amount of words per day and if I don't do that amount of words per day then I have failed. 00:17:02.126 --> 00:17:07.539 I've failed as a writer and a creative but eventually I learned that doesn't matter. 00:17:07.539 --> 00:17:15.954 Word count per day doesn't

matter as long as I'm, as long as the ball is always moving forward and like every week I get roughly about this word done. 00:17:16.109 --> 00:17:20.791 Day to day word count doesn't really matter because life is happening all around you. 00:17:20.791 --> 00:17:29.366 Sometimes you're sick, sometimes you've got to take the car to the garage, sometimes friends in town, you want to hang out with them, sort of thing. 00:17:29.366 --> 00:17:33.259 So day to day, yeah, exactly. 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:43.104 So the discipline for me just came from, it sounds silly to say it, you know, as a freelancer, you don't get paid unless you do the work. 00:17:43.104 --> 00:17:45.507 And if you don't get paid, you can't. 00:17:45.507 --> 00:17:49.490 put food in the fridge, keep a roof over your head, or keep the lights on. 00:17:49.529 --> 00:17:51.451 That was a big motivator for me. 00:17:51.451 --> 00:17:56.724 And plus, just, didn't want, having taken that step, I didn't want to fail at it. 00:17:58.249 --> 00:18:00.570 That right there, that right there, that's it. 00:18:01.031 --> 00:18:11.779 For me, just hearing that one piece, the idea that you don't wanna fail, you put yourself forward, you've taken that leap, and you gotta fly, or you're gonna fall, right? 00:18:11.779 --> 00:18:13.551 so, fly, baby, fly. 00:18:13.551 --> 00:18:17.733 It was a big leap leaving Games Workshop because, you know, I loved it. 00:18:17.733 --> 00:18:18.821 I loved the people. 00:18:18.821 --> 00:18:21.913 I loved the work, the place, everything about it. 00:18:21.913 --> 00:18:22.615 I just loved it. 00:18:22.615 --> 00:18:30.446 I loved being there and creating stuff that you knew people all around the world were going to be playing and reading and so on. 00:18:30.446 --> 00:18:31.807 And that was amazing. 00:18:31.807 --> 00:18:37.548 So to leave that to say, right, well, I'm going to become a full time novelist now. 00:18:37.583 --> 00:18:42.183 uh And that might fail was, you know, was a big step. 00:18:42.565 --> 00:18:54.648 And I didn't want to have to sort of crawl back and say, please gonna come back again or in some way, I didn't want to have to like leave, know, because I lived that Games Workshop was in England and obviously my family and friends were up in Scotland. 00:18:54.648 --> 00:19:01.532 So I thought, well, if I'm gonna go back to Scotland, then I want to be back on my terms, not because it crashed and burned around me. 00:19:01.532 --> 00:19:04.634 Yeah, yeah, it's a very different parade when you come in. 00:19:04.634 --> 00:19:16.917 uh I love that idea that sometimes it does take a little bit of the the idea of the carrot and the stick is what I think of. 00:19:16.917 --> 00:19:24.202 Sometimes we need a little bit of that that oomph and that pressure, we have something you're working to, but we need that pressure behind to help keep us moving along. 00:19:24.202 --> 00:19:26.554 and deadlines are wonderful things at times. 00:19:26.868 --> 00:19:28.029 Yeah, right. 00:19:28.029 --> 00:19:29.060 It's absolutely true. 00:19:29.060 --> 00:19:34.825 And I think that in anything that we do, just having a time that's expected for completion forces you to put attention to it. 00:19:34.825 --> 00:19:35.164 Right. 00:19:35.164 --> 00:19:40.939 And if you're willing, disciplined, uh frankly, it all comes down to how bad do you want it? 00:19:40.939 --> 00:19:41.239 Right. 00:19:41.239 --> 00:19:44.781 And there's a lot of people that do throw in the towel and the do quit and then just say, this isn't for me. 00:19:44.781 --> 00:19:45.832 It's too hard for me. 00:19:45.832 --> 00:19:46.823 Okay, fine. 00:19:46.823 --> 00:19:54.788 But I'm going to ask you, my friend, in a moment that may be considered the darkest hour, is there a moment where you felt like you wanted to throw in the towel and quit? 00:19:54.788 --> 00:20:00.010 how did you over Um, do you know what? 00:20:00.413 --> 00:20:02.015 don't... 00:20:02.015 --> 00:20:07.419 There have been times when, you know, times have been lean and what have you, but did I ever want to quit? 00:20:07.419 --> 00:20:08.339 Never. 00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:09.641 Never once. 00:20:09.641 --> 00:20:10.520 I've... 00:20:11.021 --> 00:20:15.665 You know, by this point it's been like, 25... 00:20:15.665 --> 00:20:21.329 Over 25 years since I left university and frankly I don't know how to do anything else. 00:20:21.673 --> 00:20:25.403 Hahaha know, like, who's going to hire me now to build their house? 00:20:25.403 --> 00:20:26.702 When was the last time you did this? 00:20:26.702 --> 00:20:28.383 About 30 years ago? 00:20:28.942 --> 00:20:29.462 No. 00:20:29.462 --> 00:20:32.782 It'll be like the little pig's house made out of straw or something. 00:20:34.182 --> 00:20:38.123 No, I've never, ever, ever wanted to quit at all. 00:20:38.202 --> 00:20:42.823 It's literally the only thing I've felt that I really, really wanted to do. 00:20:42.823 --> 00:20:50.189 mean, yeah, like when, you know, when I left Riot a couple of years back, that was tough because... 00:20:50.189 --> 00:20:56.943 You know, I live in LA, which is a very expensive town, and you need to find work after that. 00:20:56.943 --> 00:21:08.732 And I'm very fortunate that over the years, I always try and cultivate at work the, be the guy people wanna work with again. 00:21:08.854 --> 00:21:14.420 When a project comes up, you know, when you're not in the room, people mention your name. 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:21.019 That's, mean, you know, again, none of this is 100%, not always successfully, but you try. 00:21:21.019 --> 00:21:22.823 You try and be that person. 00:21:22.823 --> 00:21:34.526 And, you know, when I left Riot, ah I was heartened by the fact that so many people reached out to me with offers of freelance work or referrals for other gigs or jobs and stuff like that. 00:21:34.526 --> 00:21:37.869 So that was a tough time, but. 00:21:37.869 --> 00:21:49.501 you know, again, I had lots

of my fellowship, they were all there, I had lots of people who had my back and that really helped just from a mental point of view as much as anything. 00:21:50.833 --> 00:21:51.913 So good. 00:21:51.913 --> 00:21:52.752 So good. 00:21:52.752 --> 00:21:54.313 I love the idea of that. 00:21:54.313 --> 00:21:58.173 Be the people, be the guy that people want to work with again. 00:21:58.232 --> 00:21:58.532 Right? 00:21:58.532 --> 00:22:00.292 Your reputation speaks volumes. 00:22:00.292 --> 00:22:04.553 And if you're known for having a positive attitude and getting the job done, right? 00:22:04.553 --> 00:22:07.553 And learning and growing and like being a team player, right? 00:22:07.553 --> 00:22:09.573 Like people want to work with you, right? 00:22:09.653 --> 00:22:16.227 If you're, you're, and I don't even want to say the, if you're on the other end of that spectrum, well, if you don't get called back, there's a reason, right? 00:22:16.227 --> 00:22:20.654 as a freelancer, one of the key things is be reliable. 00:22:20.654 --> 00:22:25.482 If you say you're going to hit a particular deadline, you hit it. 00:22:25.517 --> 00:22:33.191 and if circumstances beyond your control and whatever, because they do, arise, then you let people know that you're not going to make it. 00:22:33.191 --> 00:22:43.297 you know, transparency, communication, um because if you're reliable as a freelancer, people are going to come back to you again and again and again. 00:22:43.297 --> 00:22:47.019 You know, am I the best or worst writer in the world? 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:48.619 No, of course not. 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:51.201 There are plenty of people who are better than me. 00:22:51.902 --> 00:22:53.462 Are they as reliable? 00:22:54.156 --> 00:23:13.229 Sometimes yes, but be reliable is the one thing that as a publisher, you want good people to write good stuff, yes, but if you can be sure that they're gonna, they say they're gonna deliver this work by such and such a date, they're gonna do it, you will get the work over and over again. 00:23:14.078 --> 00:23:14.378 great. 00:23:14.378 --> 00:23:15.576 It's a great tip. 00:23:15.576 --> 00:23:16.515 It's amazing. 00:23:16.766 --> 00:23:23.320 Graham, on your journey, what would you consider tools and weapons that have helped you along the way? 00:23:24.244 --> 00:23:38.213 mean, in terms of literal tools, I'm old school in terms of, I have many, many notepads, many moleskins and so on of ideas. 00:23:38.213 --> 00:23:42.307 Because as a writer, um if you don't write it down, it didn't happen. 00:23:42.307 --> 00:23:47.169 Because no matter how much you think, that's a great idea, I'll remember that tomorrow. 00:23:47.882 --> 00:23:50.362 nine times at 10, you probably won't. 00:23:50.521 --> 00:24:07.862 know, notepad and pen, because I know a lot of people do their sort of planning and stuff on like, you know, I mean, I have various apps that allow me to do note planning, note taking, sharing, or not sharing,

but recording like a scrap of imagery or music or whatever I like. 00:24:07.862 --> 00:24:10.122 But I love the... 00:24:10.122 --> 00:24:22.342 the act of writing a thing down because the process, the thinking about it, the moving your hand to write it, the reading it on the page, it's an embedding process that I think happens in there. 00:24:22.801 --> 00:24:25.481 And as I'm writing it, I can be like, all right, now that'd be cool. 00:24:25.481 --> 00:24:26.842 Then what about this? 00:24:26.842 --> 00:24:27.821 Then what about that? 00:24:27.821 --> 00:24:30.902 And it's almost like a free association, free writing. 00:24:30.902 --> 00:24:33.122 I don't do free writing a lot. 00:24:33.122 --> 00:24:35.521 don't find that particularly valuable. 00:24:35.521 --> 00:24:39.400 But the associations I get when I put stuff down on the page and see it together. 00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:40.190 That's useful. 00:24:40.190 --> 00:24:49.065 um Discipline-wise tools, ah like we were talking about earlier, I treat my day as a freelancer. 00:24:49.065 --> 00:24:51.276 I treat my day like I'm in the office. 00:24:51.276 --> 00:24:55.398 So it's like, yeah, I want to be at my desk by like 8.30, nine o'clock. 00:24:55.398 --> 00:24:57.759 I'll take a lunch hour. 00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:00.750 I'll finish up at usually 5.30 or six o'clock. 00:25:00.750 --> 00:25:02.461 So I structure it like a day. 00:25:02.531 --> 00:25:20.320 And depending on whether what I'm working on or what stage I'm at in a project, I'll assign parts of the day to, you know, plan out chapter two or a lot of what I've done certainly recently in the last couple of years when I found that I was devoting all my time to work. 00:25:20.320 --> 00:25:27.594 I was losing touch with the things that I loved doing, like painting a miniature, reading a book or what have you. 00:25:27.653 --> 00:25:36.566 And it sounds ridiculous, but I would timetable them into my day, which sounds too regimented, but it works because I was, you know, was like, all right, cool. 00:25:36.566 --> 00:25:43.713 I can go off and read my book and not feel guilty about, I should be working right now, or I can take half an hour to put some paint on a miniature. 00:25:44.075 --> 00:25:46.477 And that breakup of your day. 00:25:46.890 --> 00:26:16.425 helps make you keep you fresh because you know if you're at the coalface for five hours at a time your your productivity and your creativity will wane at points so i was thinking it's better to take a five ten minute break to do something and recharge and then come back um so that's that and i'm trying to think what else i mean just just get your ass in the chair every day finish Mikey said it best. 00:26:16.425 --> 00:26:20.746 That was one thing I meant to say, is the discipline of finishing things. 00:26:20.746 --> 00:26:26.205 Because I've spoken to a lot of writers who say, oh, I've got these 10 stories and I haven't finished the only of them yet. 00:26:26.205 --> 00:26:29.006

And I keep getting distracted and I got a new idea and I move on to that. 00:26:29.006 --> 00:26:38.945 And it's like, okay, but barring what you've learned by writing that piece and the next piece and the one after that, that's valueless. 00:26:38.945 --> 00:26:42.185 You can't do anything with 10 unfinished stories. 00:26:43.894 --> 00:26:51.897 You can't submit that to anyone, you can't be paid for it, you're not paying off what you've done earlier in the story sort of thing. 00:26:51.897 --> 00:26:56.740 So it's like, yeah, finish the things you start. 00:26:56.740 --> 00:27:00.881 Just make it exist, then you can make it good. 00:27:01.221 --> 00:27:02.281 That's the... 00:27:03.181 --> 00:27:04.443 I love that Graham. 00:27:04.443 --> 00:27:05.105 I love that. 00:27:05.105 --> 00:27:07.291 Make it exist and then you can make it good. 00:27:07.291 --> 00:27:09.949 uh going to be perfect out the gate. 00:27:09.949 --> 00:27:18.673 There's nothing I have ever written in my life that has its final form matched what I started with, never once. 00:27:19.932 --> 00:27:21.372 I think there's a lot of value in that. 00:27:21.372 --> 00:27:22.933 There's a lot of gold in that, my friend. 00:27:22.933 --> 00:27:29.569 I love the idea, Graham, the intention of putting pen to paper, that idea of thought and pouring that out. 00:27:29.569 --> 00:27:33.532 I think in the creative process, there's so much value in that. 00:27:33.532 --> 00:27:34.413 That's different. 00:27:34.413 --> 00:27:38.109 can't get it from that, just the tactile touching the keyboard, right? 00:27:38.109 --> 00:27:44.983 I liken it to the sketch marks an artist is making before they settle on the final line before they ink it. 00:27:46.201 --> 00:27:47.032 I love that. 00:27:47.032 --> 00:27:48.957 And thinking of it as writing a book, right? 00:27:48.957 --> 00:27:52.583 You got to make it exist and then you can make it good, right? 00:27:52.583 --> 00:27:54.576 You've got to create that template, that form. 00:27:54.576 --> 00:27:59.358 You've got to give it there so that other people can see the bit of vision that you're looking for and then you can hone it. 00:27:59.358 --> 00:28:05.036 page is nothing but once the words are on it you can you know hack away the stone until you reveal the angel. 00:28:05.676 --> 00:28:06.227 I love that. 00:28:06.227 --> 00:28:16.340 That's So Dragon's Gold, the accolades, the awards, the sometimes mindset shift that comes about on your journey. 00:28:16.340 --> 00:28:19.169 What would you share, Graham, as Dragon's Gold? 00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:36.556 I mean, on a purely sort of physical basis, yeah, I mean, you probably can't see it behind me, but I've got my axe that I won the David Gemmell Legend Award for best fantasy novel that I won for my Sigmar novel, Empire. 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:45.519 pretty cool, you know, because David Gemmell has been one of the biggest influences in my writing ever since I first read Waylander when I was 13. 00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:52.799 So to, you know, win an award that has his name on it was a huge moment for me just personally. 00:28:54.140 --> 00:29:04.111 I'm seeing Seeing A Thousand Suns was the first Black Laban novel that landed in the New York Times bestseller list. 00:29:04.111 --> 00:29:15.083 again, being able to stick the words New York Times bestseller in front of your name, feels kind of hokey in some ways, but it's still pretty cool, know, because you see that in... 00:29:15.659 --> 00:29:17.380 Stephen King books and so on. 00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:21.660 So just to see it front of my little books is still quite a lovely thing. 00:29:21.740 --> 00:29:28.779 But honestly, these are cool things and don't get me wrong, I love that this book won it and that book was the at. 00:29:28.779 --> 00:29:29.298 Bye. 00:29:29.298 --> 00:29:53.900 The thing that, again, this is gonna sound cheesy as all hell, but the thing that I enjoy the most is if I'm at a book signing or a convention and just chatting to people who have read your work and been affected by it, who've enjoyed it, who cried, who hated that particular character or can't wait for the next book in the series, that sort of thing, talking to people you've never met. 00:29:53.903 --> 00:30:01.356 and finding that they've loved something about the time you've spent in that tiny office battering the keyboard. 00:30:01.377 --> 00:30:05.233 That's amazing and that will never get old. 00:30:06.095 --> 00:30:06.936 I love that. 00:30:06.936 --> 00:30:08.359 Absolute gold, my friend. 00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:15.092 Well, I can tell you again from personal experience, I've read several of your novels and I've enjoyed every one. 00:30:15.092 --> 00:30:16.955 So please keep producing them. 00:30:16.955 --> 00:30:17.843 I will keep reading them. 00:30:17.843 --> 00:30:18.692 you. 00:30:18.692 --> 00:30:23.567 As I say to a lot of people, as long as you guys keep wanting to read it, I'll keep writing them. 00:30:25.089 --> 00:30:26.651 Yeah, exactly. 00:30:32.133 --> 00:30:39.509 The passing the torch, the idea of legacy, I call this the hall of heroes. 00:30:39.550 --> 00:30:48.578 If there was a massive statue of Graham McNeil and a plaque that could say anything that you want to future generations, what would it say? 00:30:49.587 --> 00:30:55.759 Ah, well to quote the great Ted Theodore Logan and Bill S. 00:30:55.759 --> 00:31:01.862 Preston, I think it would have to be, be excellent to everyone, party on dude. 00:31:04.979 --> 00:31:07.859 We can end the podcast right here, buddy. 00:31:08.221 --> 00:31:09.981 was fantastic. 00:31:14.183 --> 00:31:16.085 Stay hungry and stay humble. 00:31:17.705 --> 00:31:20.257 Both of those are fantastic for different reasons. 00:31:20.257 --> 00:31:23.248 that was great, Graham. 00:31:23.648 --> 00:31:26.529 So what's next? 00:31:26.529 --> 00:31:28.190 What's the next quest for Graham McNeil? 00:31:28.190 --> 00:31:30.500 Quest, wow. 00:31:30.701 -->

00:31:56.791 At the moment, well, I mean, a lot of the work I'm doing right now, I can't actually talk about it because it's NDA'd or it hasn't been announced yet and so on, but the one that I can talk about that I'm very excited for is on November the 12th, I'm launching my first ever Kickstarter for a epic 250 page graphic novel called Wolves of Winter, which is a... 00:31:58.099 --> 00:32:02.599 Fans of my work already will find tons and tons of things to like in the areas. 00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:06.039 At its simplest core, it's Vikings versus demons. 00:32:08.259 --> 00:32:09.559 They're brilliant. 00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:13.559 As long as a few thousand other people think that, then we're golden. 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:21.619 But yeah, I'm working with a very, very talented team of artists, colorists, letters, and editor. 00:32:22.180 --> 00:32:27.636 And we've got something, seeing some of the art coming in for it, think we've got something really special. 00:32:27.636 --> 00:32:32.759 because our artist, Ricardo Jime is amazing. 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:43.176 He worked in Godslap previously, a whole bunch of other things, and ah Vittorio Astone, who's worked on these Savage Shores, it looks amazing. 00:32:43.176 --> 00:32:47.190 So we're launching that on November the 12th. 00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:57.276 And if that's successful, we've got a whole slew of stories that can go alongside that, follow-ups and so on, spin-offs and such and such. 00:32:57.288 --> 00:33:03.529 but it's looking really good and I cannot wait to get that launched and just talk to people about that. 00:33:03.529 --> 00:33:13.051 It's a really cool story, borrows some characters from history, some legends from both Viking mythology and Celtic mythology and so on. 00:33:13.051 --> 00:33:22.634 And it's a story about a Viking chieftain who goes on a quest with his crew to try and save the life of his son who's been struck down by this terrible curse. 00:33:22.734 --> 00:33:31.666 And they have to go to this demon haunted island where the various of these ancient Celtic gods lie to try and save his life. 00:33:31.666 --> 00:33:37.730 ah what starts off as a quest to save one life ends up in a battle to save the world. 00:33:37.730 --> 00:33:39.480 And it's really cool. 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:40.922 think people are gonna enjoy it. 00:33:42.189 --> 00:33:45.920 I love it and I look forward to reading it and checking it out. 00:33:46.013 --> 00:33:50.130 I'll hopefully I'll send you the link and we can have it in the show notes. 00:33:50.536 --> 00:33:54.259 it's guaranteed like, yeah, like I'll find it online and tag it. 00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:57.961 Graham, I've got to ask you my favorite question. 00:33:58.281 --> 00:34:03.884 If you could be any mythical creature, what would you be and why? 00:34:05.472 --> 00:34:14.527 I mean, I had a thought, I think about this one earlier and like every creature I was coming up with, like, cause that'd be cool, cause you could breathe

fire or fly or whatever. 00:34:14.527 --> 00:34:16.938 It's like, yeah, but people are going to hunt you. 00:34:16.938 --> 00:34:22.581 If you're a dragon, some asshole knight is going to try and stick a lance in your heart or something. 00:34:22.581 --> 00:34:25.086 So I was like, okay, I don't want to, don't want to do that. 00:34:25.086 --> 00:34:29.744 Cause if I'm sitting on a pile of gold, somebody's going to come and nick it or kill me or something. 00:34:29.824 --> 00:34:30.724 So. 00:34:31.536 --> 00:34:50.072 One that occurred to me was when I was looking through my movie collection earlier and I was like, oh, there's a movie called The Song of the Sea by Cartoon Saloon, an animated movie written by a very talented writer called Will Collins and it's about a selkie. 00:34:50.253 --> 00:35:00.367 So I think I would choose that because they are sort of half human, half seal, shape-shifting creatures that live in the waters around Ireland and the highlands of Scotland. 00:35:00.829 --> 00:35:03.168 and they have a great life by the sound of it. 00:35:03.168 --> 00:35:04.847 I thought I would choose that. 00:35:04.847 --> 00:35:11.009 So visit the Highlands and Islands and Ireland and be able to shape shift to come on land or live in the sea. 00:35:11.737 --> 00:35:13.909 Sounds like a very enjoyable life. 00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:14.730 I love it. 00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:15.141 I love it. 00:35:15.141 --> 00:35:16.851 Thank you for sharing that, my friend. 00:35:16.851 --> 00:35:18.072 Super cool. 00:35:18.452 --> 00:35:24.958 So I've got a couple of bonus questions that I'd like to ask. 00:35:24.958 --> 00:35:33.543 this is certainly you have a massive following in the world of Warhammer 40,000 and... 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:41.579 And that being said, including myself, there a couple of questions that I, that I just super eager to know. 00:35:41.579 --> 00:35:48.155 one of which being, this is going to sound slightly strange, was Magnus wrong? 00:35:48.155 --> 00:35:50.001 Did Magnus do anything wrong? 00:35:50.001 --> 00:35:51.983 He did many things wrong. 00:35:51.983 --> 00:35:54.543 Many, many, many things wrong. 00:35:54.903 --> 00:36:01.346 I mean, you know, a lot of the heresy is about people doing the wrong thing for the right reason. 00:36:01.847 --> 00:36:13.302 And Magnus is no exception to that because, you know, at its core, the heresy is a tragedy, you know, and that's the sort Shakespearean terminology. 00:36:13.302 --> 00:36:16.043 The tragedy is like the hero. 00:36:16.043 --> 00:36:18.153 who is blind to his own flaw. 00:36:18.153 --> 00:36:20.804 Everybody else can see it, but he cannot see his own flaw. 00:36:20.804 --> 00:36:27.536 And Magnus is the, I'd say the living, but the living embodiment of that in Heresy era. 00:36:27.536 --> 00:36:37.518 know, cause he, he tries to help people know what he knows, see what he sees, be aware of all the potential around them. 00:36:37.518 --> 00:36:40.300 But he, the way he does that is terrible. 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:45.101 You know, he, he's blinded by the fact, his own hubris, his own arrogance to... 00:36:45.153 --> 00:36:48.536 because he thinks he's the smartest person in the room and most times he is. 00:36:48.536 --> 00:36:59.163 But that translate to, can translate and does in several scenes to arrogance where he's like, well, I'll do the knowing better for you because you're not clever enough to see the things that I see. 00:36:59.163 --> 00:37:01.074 So I will do that knowing better for you. 00:37:01.074 --> 00:37:09.139 And that way is a slippery slope to totalitarianism to diminishing people around them. 00:37:09.139 --> 00:37:09.989 Hmm. 00:37:09.989 --> 00:37:17.958 making things, making decisions that you think are right because of the things you know, but not regarding the wider picture around you. 00:37:17.958 --> 00:37:23.324 So yeah, I think he did lots of things wrong, but initially they were for the right reasons. 00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:23.719 Right. 00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:34.099 uh And, I, love that clarity and the idea too, so often we'll do things for the right reason, but we're doing the wrong things for the right, with good intention. 00:37:34.099 --> 00:37:38.268 of drama is characters doing the wrong things for what they think are the right reasons. 00:37:38.268 --> 00:37:44.396 there's even, I I kind of, I hit that nail a little, you know, very on the nose at one point. 00:37:44.396 --> 00:37:52.201 There's a part of Tizca, the city of Magnus on his home world, has this road and it's. 00:37:52.233 --> 00:37:58.963 It's literally paved with good intentions and he walks along it to hell. 00:37:58.963 --> 00:38:04.009 And it's a pretty unsubtle metaphor, but it captures the theme of the book. 00:38:04.115 --> 00:38:05.615 paints the picture, right? 00:38:05.615 --> 00:38:14.956 And that's the idea so often, we have to be able to look at ourselves and not be blinded to our own flaws so that we can grow from there and learn, right? 00:38:14.956 --> 00:38:21.076 Doesn't mean we have to make sure that we're best at everything, but we do need to make sure that the things that we can stop gap, right? 00:38:21.076 --> 00:38:23.016 Stop the holes in the boat, right? 00:38:23.016 --> 00:38:30.414 Finding the ways to be able to excel in what you're good at and to grow from the things that you may not. 00:38:30.414 --> 00:38:35.534 book I read profoundly affected me a while back called The Lucifer Effect. 00:38:35.693 --> 00:38:44.614 It based on the Stanford Prison Experiment, which as we know now was a fatally flawed experiment in terms of the methodology they used. 00:38:44.614 --> 00:38:51.833 But the second half of the book is all about doing the right thing and being aware of your flaws and so on. 00:38:52.134 --> 00:38:59.155 it's when people don't think they have a flaw or they think, well, that would never happen to me because I'm not that person. 00:38:59.155 --> 00:39:16.463 is precisely when

you're more vulnerable to being that person, to making that mistake, is being aware of yourself that, there but for the grace of God go I, or I could be that guy if I'm not constantly vigilant, so to speak, on my own behaviours. 00:39:16.545 --> 00:39:20.347 And Magnus is the guy who thinks he can't do anything wrong. 00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:22.041 But obviously he can. 00:39:22.041 --> 00:39:28.960 by thinking he won't do anything wrong, he makes decisions that are wrong, but he doesn't think they are, doesn't see that they're wrong. 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:33.927 know, bursting into the Emperor's Palace and smashing all the wards around the Golden Throne. 00:39:34.028 --> 00:39:37.472 Not your best plan, but made with good intentions. 00:39:39.375 --> 00:39:41.025 That didn't work out quite the way it was planned. 00:39:41.025 --> 00:39:45.298 I love that. 00:39:45.298 --> 00:39:58.052 uh Graham, this may be a hard thing to say, and it's okay if there isn't one in particular, but is there a book that you enjoyed writing most, and why? 00:39:58.731 --> 00:40:01.943 Good, that's the, which of your children is your favorite? 00:40:01.943 --> 00:40:14.411 um It's, I don't know, mean, again, it's, this is an answer Dan gives a lot of when he's asked questions of this, and I wholeheartedly agree with it. 00:40:14.411 --> 00:40:27.561 My favorite book is the one I'm writing right now, because that's the one where all my juice of cool ideas and the thing that's exciting me to get to this scene or that scene or to pay off that set up. 00:40:27.617 --> 00:40:35.396 And I'm writing a book right now that is wildly exciting to me because it's kind of a new-ish IP to me. 00:40:35.456 --> 00:40:38.297 But I think people are going to really like it. 00:40:38.336 --> 00:40:46.597 But as far as, it's, I mean, I've got a back catalog now of I think about 44, 45 novels. 00:40:46.996 --> 00:40:51.536 So picking a favourite out of there is next to impossible. 00:40:51.737 --> 00:40:56.309 The most fun I think I had was the Sigmar. 00:40:56.309 --> 00:41:06.195 trilogy, ah Heldon Hammer, Empire and God King, because they allowed me essentially to channel my inner Robert E. 00:41:06.195 --> 00:41:16.583 Howard, because the tone of those was very sort of, you know, it's prehistory, it was the age before the fall of Atlantis type thing. 00:41:16.583 --> 00:41:23.277 you know, you were getting to revel in all those savage barbarian tribes tropes and so on. 00:41:23.277 --> 00:41:25.429 And it was a ton of fun to write. 00:41:25.471 --> 00:41:29.063 you know, the ancient history of the empire and the old world. 00:41:29.063 --> 00:41:37.867 um But then also you've got things like, well, Storm of Iron, I love doing that, because it was the first book that we wrote for BL really with the villains one. 00:41:37.867 --> 00:41:39.188 Spoiler alert. 00:41:39.188 --> 00:41:50.432 A Thousand Sons, I loved writing that one because it was, you know, when you start writing a book, you

have lot of intentions of what you hope to achieve with the book. 00:41:50.728 --> 00:41:52.831 You don't often manage to get all of them. 00:41:52.831 --> 00:42:03.798 You get a lot if you're doing it right, but some by necessity of pacing, plot, length, whatever, they have to be jettisoned, especially when you're working in a shared IP. 00:42:03.798 --> 00:42:19.039 But A Thousand Sons was the book where I felt of all the things I wanted to achieve with a particular book, that was the one I think I got closest to fitting most of them in and achieving the things I wanted to do with the book, I felt I got by the end. 00:42:20.083 --> 00:42:20.585 I love that. 00:42:20.585 --> 00:42:22.329 Thank you for sharing that. 00:42:22.329 --> 00:42:31.070 I'm also going to cite that I don't think it's lost that the one that you have the most fun writing was also the one you gained awards for, right? 00:42:31.070 --> 00:42:36.893 I think there's definitely a correlation in terms of, you can usually tell when somebody's phoning it in. 00:42:36.893 --> 00:42:51.442 um Thankfully, that's very rare, you know, because, you know, it takes a special kind of, yeah, it takes a special kind of stupidity, whatever, or bravery or idiocy, idiocy, and whatever to get to the end of a book. 00:42:51.682 --> 00:42:55.864 So anyone who's done that is like brilliant, well done. 00:42:55.864 --> 00:42:58.726 That's something so many people try and fail to do. 00:42:58.726 --> 00:43:03.507 um But there's other books where you can tell, oh man, you have fun with this book. 00:43:03.507 --> 00:43:05.827 You are enjoying every page of this. 00:43:05.827 --> 00:43:11.887 And yeah, think the Sigmar ones were the ones where I felt that I had the most fun writing. 00:43:12.668 --> 00:43:18.088 I mean, they weren't the quick, were like, think Sons of Elyrian was the one I wrote the quickest. 00:43:18.088 --> 00:43:21.056 I think I wrote that in about seven weeks. 00:43:21.056 --> 00:43:29.536 because that one just flew out of me because I knew everything about the characters, the setting, the location, the story, the emotions, the themes. 00:43:29.536 --> 00:43:31.076 I knew it all even before it started. 00:43:31.076 --> 00:43:33.356 So that one just flew out of me. 00:43:33.356 --> 00:43:35.751 But yeah, the three more ones that I had the most fun with. 00:43:35.751 --> 00:43:36.675 I love that idea. 00:43:36.675 --> 00:43:39.969 You find that muse, whatever that is, that inspiration, right? 00:43:39.969 --> 00:43:41.079 And when it begins to pour. 00:43:41.079 --> 00:43:59.275 It's like, what is it, Kevin Costner talks about that in Raging Bull when he's berating Susan Sarandon's character and he's saying, hey, whatever it is that's making you play well, whatever it is, it's you're wearing women's knickers or your dad's baseball bat or your cap's on back, whatever it is, ride it, roll with it. 00:43:59.275 --> 00:44:04.059 That's it, if you believe that's what it is, then that's what it is and ride that wave. 00:44:05.750 --> 00:44:09.713 So often in life too, it's the things, just, us. 00:44:09.713 --> 00:44:20.260 We feel that it's much like, I think of the placebo effect when I hear you say that, the idea that sometimes we just trick our own mind and believe something is true and then it makes it so, right? 00:44:20.260 --> 00:44:22.192 It's so much that it's the confidence behind it. 00:44:22.192 --> 00:44:26.003 It's the belief and then taking that action without the reservation, the fear, right? 00:44:26.003 --> 00:44:26.976 That trepidation. 00:44:26.976 --> 00:44:30.278 Yeah, I mean a little bit of fear is good because it will drive you. 00:44:30.278 --> 00:44:34.661 But it's when that fear crosses into paralyzing terror, not so good. 00:44:34.661 --> 00:44:38.931 But you know, a little healthy bit of fear of failure is no bad thing. 00:44:38.931 --> 00:44:39.492 the stick. 00:44:39.492 --> 00:44:40.851 The carrot and the stick. 00:44:41.811 --> 00:44:43.251 I love it. 00:44:43.251 --> 00:44:47.472 All right, brother, I do have one more question I'm incredibly curious to know. 00:44:47.751 --> 00:44:55.711 There's a book that you had written or an entry for, and it was The Last Church. 00:44:58.878 --> 00:45:11.302 Being one of the first writers to be able to bring the words of Warhammer 40,000's universe, the emperor of mankind, what was going through your head and how did that feel? 00:45:12.606 --> 00:45:22.900 That was, yeah, because we hadn't introduced the Emperor at that point and we'd already started discussing the end game of the heresy. 00:45:22.900 --> 00:45:29.143 As it turned out, we were a lot further away from the ending than we thought we were at the time, but we were discussing how to do that. 00:45:29.143 --> 00:45:45.798 And we knew that for what we had in mind for the ending of the story, which to a degree people know, um you know, you had to, we had to start introducing the Emperor to the storylines or he would just pop up at the end and be like, who's this guy? 00:45:45.798 --> 00:45:51.583 You know, we had to sort of move him slowly into the spotlight so that it meant something when the ending came along. 00:45:51.583 --> 00:45:56.626 But I didn't want to just have him walk on in his golden armor going, hi, I'm the Emperor. 00:45:56.626 --> 00:46:03.034 um Because I came late to that anthology because I was working on another novel previously. 00:46:03.034 --> 00:46:24.498 um So when it came time to pitch out a story for it, ah I asked Lindsay Priestley, who was the editor of that book, could she give me a couple of, give me a two line synopsis for each of the stories that was going to be in the book already because I didn't want to spend time duplicating effort if I was like, you've already got a story with these kinds of characters or that kind of story. 00:46:24.577 --> 00:46:32.509 um And when she sent me that, saw all of them were very action heavy, which is natural. 00:46:32.509 -->

00:46:36.780 So it's a book series based on a war game and a gigantic galactic civil war. 00:46:36.780 --> 00:46:38.226 So you would expect that. 00:46:38.226 --> 00:46:51.494 But I was like, well, my favorite anthologies to read are ones where there's a uh variety of texture, styles, of tones, of voices, of lengths, and what have you. 00:46:51.494 --> 00:46:54.175 So I was like, well, I want to tell a story. 00:46:54.579 --> 00:46:57.161 that absolutely has no action in it whatsoever. 00:46:57.161 --> 00:47:03.126 There's no guns or chainswords or explosions or armies clashing and so on. 00:47:03.126 --> 00:47:09.811 And can I still tell a story in this universe that often has those in spades? 00:47:09.811 --> 00:47:17.182 um can I tell a story like that without any of the familiar crutches and still have it be exciting? 00:47:17.182 --> 00:47:23.965 know, not necessarily exciting as in giant battles, but exciting to read that you want to turn the page and so on. 00:47:24.067 --> 00:47:29.170 And I kept sort of giving myself like, well, extra challenges, like, well, okay, so there's no fighting in it. 00:47:29.170 --> 00:47:41.096 It's just two guys in a room or a couple of rooms um talking about the pros and cons of, you know, organized faith in a galaxy, in a world that these guys operate in. 00:47:41.396 --> 00:48:00.351 And it was one of these things that asked a lot of all of us, of me being able to write it and hopefully hit those markers of library to publish a story that had nothing of the usual things you would expect, the conventions of the genre that you would expect in their publications. 00:48:00.351 --> 00:48:09.418 And I asked a lot of the readers as well to buy into a story that didn't have all the things that they came to these stories in some ways expecting. 00:48:09.418 --> 00:48:11.230 And I'm just, very. 00:48:11.367 --> 00:48:22.632 again, very lucky that it turned out as well as it seems to, because a lot of people cite that story as a favourite of theirs, or, it's so good to see the Emperor. 00:48:22.632 --> 00:48:27.144 I knew I couldn't just introduce him, like I said earlier, just walking on stage in his golden armour. 00:48:27.144 --> 00:48:39.159 There had to be this gradual reveal of moments, when he sits down in the chair and it creaks far more than it should for somebody of his apparent size in the story. 00:48:39.422 --> 00:48:48.690 that his ring that he's got that the priest sees or the stories he tells or the things that maybe you shouldn't know that you're too young to have seen this event you're talking about. 00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:52.664 It sounds like you were at 100 years ago, that sort of thing. 00:48:52.664 --> 00:49:00.146 So it was fun, know, being able to do that in a story, being able to play with the big toys, so to speak, is always a thrill. 00:49:00.146 --> 00:49:00.956 love that. 00:49:00.956 --> 00:49:01.606 Yeah, I love that. 00:49:01.606 --> 00:49:02.838 That's fantastic. 00:49:02.838 --> 00:49:10.461 uh It was awesome to be able to read and um thank you for sharing that insight. 00:49:10.461 --> 00:49:19.788 It's really wonderful to be able to hear some of the background or story or some of the behind the scenes that comes about to that creation. 00:49:19.788 --> 00:49:23.159 So often than anything that we do, people see the finished product, right? 00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:33.978 The same idea of success, the iceberg analogy, the fact that you put in all this time, effort, energy, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the countless hours in that chair, the discipline, right? 00:49:33.978 --> 00:49:40.833 But by pushing all that through and then finally coming that people see that you've put almost 50 books plus out, right? 00:49:40.833 --> 00:49:47.889 And with production and they see that, but they don't see all the work, time, effort and energy that comes through. 00:49:48.224 --> 00:50:00.344 So to be able to share some of that behind the scenes story in regards to the aspect of creation gives us a bit of insight into what dictated the needs and where your mind was at in the moment and flushes it out so much more. 00:50:00.344 --> 00:50:00.739 I love. 00:50:00.739 --> 00:50:18.690 always loved like, you know, that's one of the things I lament about this decline of physical media is that I loved directors commentaries, but you know, the Lord of the Rings box sets with all the massive amount of documentaries about how they did the scale of the characters, how they built the sets and so on. 00:50:18.690 --> 00:50:21.012 That stuff fascinates me. 00:50:21.012 --> 00:50:22.518 And I love hearing. 00:50:22.518 --> 00:50:29.784 I love hearing other creatives tell me about their processes, the things they do, because then I'm like, because all of us writers are magpies. 00:50:29.784 --> 00:50:38.289 You know, like I've listened to, you know, I can be on a panel with 10 other writers and we talk about our day and how we structure it, how we plan a story. 00:50:38.289 --> 00:50:39.581 And I'm like, oh, that's good. 00:50:39.581 --> 00:50:40.652 I'm having that. 00:50:40.652 --> 00:50:41.632 Oh, that's good. 00:50:41.632 --> 00:50:42.123 doing that. 00:50:42.123 --> 00:50:47.637 Because you ask 10 writers how they do a thing and you'll get 10 completely different answers. 00:50:47.637 --> 00:50:50.059 And some of it work, if it works for them, brilliant. 00:50:50.059 --> 00:50:51.894 I've tried bits and pieces from others. 00:50:51.894 --> 00:50:52.916 that other people have suggested. 00:50:52.916 --> 00:50:55.751 Some work, some don't, and I keep the ones that do. 00:50:55.751 --> 00:51:03.724 So yeah, it's a peek behind the curtain, I think, only enhances the magic to know how a thing came to be. 00:51:04.597 --> 00:51:05.197 I love it. 00:51:05.197 --> 00:51:05.927 Fantastic. 00:51:05.927 --> 00:51:06.717 And I agree. 00:51:07.210 --> 00:51:16.268 Graham, if you could only play one faction in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, who would it be? 00:51:17.898 --> 00:51:27.726 Well, the faction I probably play the most at the moment is Ultramarines, which is going to come as no surprise to anyone who knows me or my work. 00:51:27.726 --> 00:51:32.090 But if I had to play just one, it would probably be my Necrons. 00:51:32.391 --> 00:51:38.775 because that was one of the first codexes I ever worked on back with Andy Chambers and Phil Kelly. 00:51:38.916 --> 00:51:48.056 And I just think the variety of models, the miniatures, the play styles you can have, and you get to do the Terminator theme tune every time you move your models. 00:51:48.056 --> 00:51:50.047 So that's win-win. 00:51:50.293 --> 00:51:55.976 thank you for taking the time today to be able to share some of your journey and some of your experience. 00:51:57.297 --> 00:51:59.617 Graham, I do have one more question. 00:51:59.869 --> 00:52:05.262 In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, will there ever be peace? 00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:09.846 only the hunger of thirsting gods, I'm afraid. 00:52:11.163 --> 00:52:16.693 And there is only war, as the quote goes. 00:52:16.693 --> 00:52:19.994 I mean, it's the clues in the box, it's right there in the box. 00:52:20.016 --> 00:52:22.577 In far future there's only war. 00:52:22.577 --> 00:52:27.851 mean, there's sometimes peace in brackets of the end, doesn't quite have the same ring to it. 00:52:27.851 --> 00:52:29.054 Yeah, no, not at all. 00:52:29.054 --> 00:52:29.706 Not at all. 00:52:29.706 --> 00:52:30.550 I love it. 00:52:30.550 --> 00:52:32.827 I'm super grateful for taking the time today, my friend. 00:52:32.827 --> 00:52:33.987 been really good. 00:52:33.987 --> 00:52:48.646 I've enjoyed our chat and just getting to articulate a lot of things that bubble behind the eyes, but you don't really get the chance to articulate them in a way that go, oh yeah, that was cool, or that was a long time ago, or whatever. 00:52:48.947 --> 00:52:50.186 So thank you for having me on. 00:52:50.186 --> 00:52:51.297 Much appreciated. 00:52:51.297 --> 00:52:55.260 absolutely my friend, being able to reflect on things in that sometimes give it a bit of clarity as well. 00:52:55.260 --> 00:52:57.632 Like just talking about bringing it up. 00:52:59.842 --> 00:53:10.932 My friends, thank you for joining us once again on our quest to inspire, educate, and empower you to turn your dreams into reality, one mindset shift at a time. 00:53:11.094 --> 00:53:12.385 We'll see you next time.