התמלול המלא של The hidden problem with America’s safety net | Erine Gray

00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:10.319 or if I'm a maybe an organization that provides some 69 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.039 kind of social services, what's the kind of resource or 70 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:15.159 service you provide? 71 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:18.399 Sure, So there's really three sets of users. So the 72 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.920 first is what we call seekers, and that's anybody in 73 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:25.199 need who are seeking services. Our service is completely free 74 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:29.879 to seekers. We don't advertise, we don't sell data. It's 75 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.360 meant to be anonymous where people can go and find 76 00:04:33.399 --> 00:04:35.920 out what services are available. They can fill out an 77 00:04:35.920 --> 00:04:39.399 application for benefits, they can connect to a care coordinator 78 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.759 or a social worker, or refer themselves to any number 79 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:48.639 of organizations. We also the second group are those that 80 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:52.439 run programs. So this could be you know, a local 81 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:56.639 church that runs a food pantry, or an affordable housing program, 82 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.199 or really any number of things that are in the 83 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.920 safety net, and they use find Help for receiving electronic referrals, 84 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:10.199 communicating with seekers, but also for a better workflow. So 85 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.519 our software is also free to community based organizations a 86 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.240 lot we use. We have a lot of those types 87 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:21.639 of users. And then lastly, our customers tend to be 88 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:25.839 larger institutions that hire larger groups of navigators or care 89 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:32.040 coordinators and they really need integrations into their systems of records, 90 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:35.839 so we work with large health systems hospital systems. There's 91 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.079 also a lot of turnover amongst these navigators and so 92 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:45.920 to have documentation to perform assessments when you're intaking with 93 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:50.079 a new household, we organize all of that and really 94 00:05:50.079 --> 00:05:52.160 try to drive down the time it takes to do 95 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:56.399 paperwork for these professional navigators. And so that's how we 96 00:05:56.600 --> 00:06:03.800 sustain as a business. Our customers are really looking to 97 00:06:04.040 --> 00:06:08.439 simplify their workflows and really try to reach the folks 98 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.240 that they serve at scale and through software is sort 99 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:12.839 of our channel for helping. 100 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.519 Going back, you mentioned you're working Texas on the Social 101 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:19.800 Safety Net. What did you learn there, what did you 102 00:06:19.879 --> 00:06:22.600 see sort of being in the thick of things on 103 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.759 the actual program side and did that influence at all 104 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:27.639 why I thought, hey, there needs to be a resource 105 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.240 that led you to creating find Help. 106 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.240 Yeah, that was the most defining period of my career. 107 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:39.439 So there was a commissioner there under Governor Perry Rick 108 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:41.920 Perry was the governor at the time, and he had 109 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:47.399 a commissioner named Albert Hawkins who wanted to shortly after 110 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:49.560 welfare reform, so this was right around the two thousand 111 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.839 and four time frame. He wanted to add dignity to 112 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:58.079 the process of navigating the safety net in Texas. Texas 113 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:02.399 is a complicated state. We grow twenty percent every ten years. 114 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:06.680 It's a border state, so there's a lot of complications 115 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:11.480 that are there. Yet to get enrolled in a state 116 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.759 program meant a family navigated through multiple offices, So not 117 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.680 only was it difficult to enroll, it was also really 118 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:24.319 expensive to administer. So the other thing to keep in 119 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:25.920 mind on what the commission was going through at the 120 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:32.480 time was back and after the Great Society. Offices were 121 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:39.639 built based on the population at that time. However, the 122 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:43.079 capacity models that were happening did not keep up with 123 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.720 the population growth, so you had offices in rural communities 124 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:50.160 that were overstaffed. So people would get much better service 125 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:53.079 if you're out in rural Texas versus if you were 126 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.000 in Houston. If you were in Houston at certain times, 127 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:58.600 you would have to take the day off of work. 128 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:04.759 Usually this population didn't have childcare, and if for whatever 129 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:07.959 reason you missed your appointment, who would you call? Sometimes 130 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:10.439 you would just call the office, leave a message on 131 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.160 an answering machine that's never going to get checked. So 132 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.560 the thinking was, could you stand up away where people 133 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:23.079 could apply online, renew their benefits online, call a call center. 134 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.000 That way they wouldn't have to take off work, they 135 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:30.639 wouldn't

have to find childcare and would that help? And 136 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.200 I think everybody agreed that it would help. But it 137 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:38.159 was a really large transformation project. New software had to 138 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:44.240 be built, eligibility rules had to be respected. Of course, 139 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.279 there's a ton of different eligibility rules, and it ended 140 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:50.639 up being a project that I loved the idea of. 141 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:55.360 But of course, you know what they say, everybody has 142 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:57.200 a great plan until they get punched in the face. 143 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:00.799 So that Mike Tysa that was one of his I 144 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:01.159 think so. 145 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.600 And you know that project when it was rolled out, 146 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:07.919 it was put out for bid, it was won by 147 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.279 a company called Eccentre. It was a billion dollar bid 148 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.039 and huge transformation project, and after a couple of years 149 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:17.919 it just wasn't going very well. I had a chance 150 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:21.360 to join a couple of years in when headlines are 151 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:24.639 all over the paper, and six months within that project, 152 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.960 Accenture and the State parted ways, and that left a 153 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:33.120 few of us who were subcontractors to sort of pick 154 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.679 up that contract and work hand in hand with the State. 155 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:41.120 Probably the most interesting thing that occurred after we stabilized 156 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:46.480 with a new vendor was so my team was responsible 157 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.879 for the data warehouse of the operation, and as part 158 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.559 of that job, we had to write forecasts around how 159 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.519 many calls we would get, how many applications for benefits 160 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:01.360 we would get, and we would look at historical applications 161 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:05.360 we would try to adjust for a seasonality. And these 162 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.519 forecasts were important because you would need to know how 163 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:11.960 to staff the call center or how many people do 164 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:14.120 you need on a Monday versus on a Friday. And 165 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:17.960 so that team got pretty good at forecasts to the 166 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:21.399 point where we're running a pretty fisient operation. And then 167 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:25.799 we noticed in the spring of two thousand and eight 168 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.039 our forecasts began to be wrong. We were under forecasting 169 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.519 the demand. And then it got to the point where, 170 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:40.440 by

leaps and bounds, turns out that was the beginning 171 00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:43.480 of the financial crisis, where the demand for snap and 172 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:47.000 food stamps went through the roof, and it was chaos 173 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.919 to the point where people's benefits were not getting renewed. 174 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:54.679 You also had a brand new population that we're getting 175 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.240 enrolled for the very first time, and the state just 176 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.360 wasn't ready for it. I think we made it through. 177 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.320 We worked really hard with the state. A new commissioner 178 00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:11.960 came in, did all sorts of creative things, staffed up, 179 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.840 ended up fixing the problem. After we stabilized in twenty ten. 180 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.519 I think my big light bulb moment was the problems 181 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.600 in the US safety net are so big that it's 182 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:28.480 about what do you want to spend your life doing. 183 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.519 And for me, the conclusion that I came to was, 184 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:34.879 I'm not going to have the impact that I want 185 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:36.639 to have in the world just working with the Texas 186 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:40.039 Health and Naman Services Commission as a contractor. So around 187 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:44.919 that time, Indeed was a very popular company, and they 188 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:49.240 successfully figured out how to navigate a vertical search engine 189 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:53.360 like jobs, And so I left and dusted off my 190 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:56.279 programming books and started find help. 191 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.200 I mean, I love that is sort of born out 192 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:04.879 of practical experience of you and frankly seeing a public 193 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:08.399 policy challenge that single Is there sort of a market 194 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.879 innovation solution that can help fill this or help address 195 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:13.960 this challenge that you're seeing and against. One of the 196 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.000 things I've thought about a lot is this idea of 197 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.039 the way our social safety net is currently structured. There 198 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:23.200 are some perspectives that while it's we just need to 199 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:27.120 help people navigate the system in a better way, or 200 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:31.960 that while we need to fundamentally restructure the system. There's 201 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:34.320 people in both camps. There's crossover. I tend to kind 202 00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:38.240 of agree with both. What is your sense of I 203 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:41.080 guess why did you go to well, sort of the 204 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.279 navigation side, helping people better understand the safety net system 205 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:49.840 that they might be participating in and helping them navigate 206 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.320 it more easily. Why did that seem to be a 207 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.480 pressing area that you thought needed some fixes that led 208 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:56.120 to find help. 209 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.519 It's a good question. So I'll take it back a 210 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:05.799 little bit in time. So, you know, after my experience 211 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:08.919 with my mom's illness, I decided I wanted to go 212 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:10.919 to graduate school. So I actually went to the LBJ 213 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:15.360 School of Public Policy in Austin. And you know, for me, 214 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.320 as a kid, I benefited from the safety net. So 215 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:23.759 my mom and dad during hard times. I was born 216 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:27.600 in a housing project. My first house after the first 217 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:29.600 place they took me home to was the projects in 218 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.519 a small town in western New York. And eventually they 219 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:34.600 saved up and you know, got a mortgage and got 220 00:13:34.600 --> 00:13:37.639 a house. And so I've seen what it's like, especially 221 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.879 in rural America where the you know, there's not a 222 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:43.200 lot of wealthy people there, but the sort of the 223 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.639 rich and the poor, the difference between those that can 224 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.320 pay their bill every month, pay their bills every month 225 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:52.360 versus those that can't. And so I was interested in 226 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:56.000 the safety net. And but in graduate school, you know, 227 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.000 sort of seeing what Johnson tried to do, and he 228 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.240 knew it was broken. He said, you know, I'll fix 229 00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.000 it late. We'll fix it later, but you know, he's 230 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:08.879 good at getting bills through. And but I took a 231 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:13.639 class from a professor in the journalism school named doctor 232 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.960 Marvin Olaski, and he wrote The Tragedy of American Compassion 233 00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:22.559 that came out in the nineties, and that book changed 234 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:29.360 my life. He was curious what happened when there wasn't 235 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:33.919 a government safety net, and he looked and I've since 236 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.919 gotten to know him as from reconnected with him a 237 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.519 few years ago after twenty years when I was in 238 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:45.440 graduate school, And what was exciting about Alaski is there's 239 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.000 no doubt that the Great Society changed

things and affected 240 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.759 poverty and affected you know, a lot of positive things. 241 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.000 But what he pointed out was there's an effect that occurred, 242 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.000 and that is what a neighbor less likely to help 243 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.440 their neighbor when there wasn't a government safety net. And 244 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.320 so looking through history books and going to the Library 245 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:12.200 of Congress, he looked at what happened, and he found 246 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:14.200 minutes from a town council meeting I think in the 247 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:20.720 sixteen hundreds, and in that those minutes, it basically appropriated 248 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:22.559 a little bit of money to a family that took 249 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.240 in an orphan. And so government's always been involved in 250 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:28.200 some effect, but it was more close. But for me, 251 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:32.120 it wasn't a money problem because out there I was 252 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:36.159 on a billion dollar project in one state. It was 253 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:41.519 a navigation problem. And so the thinking was, could software 254 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:45.679 democratize navigation so that a neighbor could help a neighbor. 255 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:50.919 You know, somebody can help a disabled parent, somebody could 256 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:54.279 help an addicted child. So when I built the first version. 257 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:56.759 I was the lead developer for the first five years. 258 00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:01.240 It really was all about democratizing that bagation with the 259 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:05.120 theory and the hope that if more people felt comfortable 260 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:09.679 navigating on behalf of friends, family, neighbors, then that's kind 261 00:16:09.679 --> 00:16:14.279 of half the battle. Because I just can't believe that 262 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.200 more money is going to solve this problem. And so 263 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.399 I think that was there from knowing doctor Alaski and 264 00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:24.000 reading that book, and it was probably a little bit 265 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:32.440 subconscious at the time, but I also believe that businesses, 266 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.720 if they can figure out a way to survive, are 267 00:16:35.799 --> 00:16:38.600 much better at bringing innovation, even to complicated problems like 268 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:39.159 the safety Net. 269 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:42.080 I want to pinpoint that point for a minute, that 270 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.759 it's not a money problem, because that really is one 271 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.360 of the big debates over social welfare policy for our 272 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:51.200 country and even at the state level, that there are 273 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:58.039 very voice voiceful, you know, very robust voices articulating the 274 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:02.279 arguments that we need to fund the social safety net more, 275 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.200 put more money into welfare programs, increase benefit levels, expand 276 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:09.480 benefit eligibility further up the income scale, those kinds of things, 277 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.279 and I tend to think, you know, we're spending depending 278 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:16.079 on the estimates and what you can but anywhere from 279 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.599 a trillion to one point five trillion dollars a year 280 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:24.279 on the entire system, and the question of all our 281 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:28.880 outcomes matching the level of investment. So I tend to 282 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:33.440 agree that it's not really a function globally speaking of, well, 283 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.559 we just need to put more money into the safety 284 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:38.799 net and therefore problem solved. That doesn't seem to be 285 00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:42.480 the key challenge. My view is that families who are 286 00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.759 participants on the social safety net and still struggle to 287 00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.240 earn enough to get out of poverty and into work 288 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.039 based independence, it's not because we don't have enough government 289 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.400 programs for government spending. There are other things at play there, 290 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.640 and so I just I wonder if you could expand 291 00:17:58.680 --> 00:17:59.799 on that a little bit that what would you say 292 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.000 to folks that out there that say, well, we just 293 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.839 need universal basic income. That's a big topic these days, 294 00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:08.160 of course, especially with the advent of AI or people 295 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.519 saying well, we just need to be a lot more 296 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.519 generous with our social welfare programs and that would sort 297 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.319 of solve poverty. In other words, they said, let's just 298 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.440 give financial resources enough and in an ongoing way such 299 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:22.039 that we can say, quote unquote, there's no more poverty. 300 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:24.839 What is the right response to those kinds of arguments 301 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:25.319 in your view? 302 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.039 I've heard all of them, and I'll just share a 303 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.000 little bit of my perspective. So a big part of 304 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.440 what I did in the early days when I started 305 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.519 the company is I remember keying in all of the 306 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:43.400 food pantries in Texas into an Excel spreadsheet and then 307 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:48.480 writing a

script to upload that to our search. And 308 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.759 when you do that enough, you begin to see every 309 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:55.400 single one of these organizations. First off, a lot of 310 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.480 the food pantry and food insecurity is solved through the 311 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:02.559 faith based community. Literally churches are the associated providers of that. 312 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.000 But then you look at lots of different types of permutations, 313 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.359 and in some cases there are thousands of poverty fighting 314 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:16.000 programs in one major city, so we've indexed the entire country. 315 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.279 So what we began to think about, and what I 316 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.119 began to see is there's a lot of service providers 317 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.720 and there's certainly a long tail. So specifically with the 318 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.880 private safety net, every one of those have an executive director, 319 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:33.960 a lot of them are paying rent, a lot of 320 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.759 them have a gala every year, and you know what 321 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:43.519 ALASKI talked about was you know, back in the early days, 322 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.920 was somebody had to decide who was worthy of assistants. 323 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:52.920 So what we've really built is gatekeepers around who gets 324 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.759 the services and who doesn't get the services. I think 325 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:01.880 my argument is there is so much redundancy and there's 326 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.359 so much so many eligibility rules that are going on 327 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:13.440 that it's it's not efficient enough yet, So meaning I 328 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:18.279 can see a world where the eligibility problem using technology 329 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.000 goes away. I'm sure AI can have a part in that, 330 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.480 but what we're beginning to see is consolidation. I'll give 331 00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.359 you a really quick example. Medical transportation used to be 332 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.359 a nonprofit service that a lot of folks will would 333 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.000 provide and so all of them have volunteers. They were 334 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:39.559 very unreliable, and then about a decade ago, Lift and 335 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:43.240 Uber started getting into medical transportation to the point now 336 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:45.839 where hospitals and point of care solutions are now entering 337 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:49.440 into contracts with Uber and Lyft, and we're beginning to 338 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.480 see less and less nonprofits because that was solved by 339 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.279 the private sector. They figured out that you know the 340 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.640 business models, and I think most patients prefer it. So 341 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:01.960 you do situations where a hospital will actually fund the 342 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:07.119 ride to the follow up appointments, which improves their ability 343 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.079 to live longer and saves money because they're not going 344 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.400 to the emergency room again. So you have one tiny 345 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:14.960 little thing where the private sector came in. But I 346 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.000 think again, in our position of having indexed most of 347 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:21.920 the US Safety Net, we've discovered a lot of redundancy 348 00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:24.559 and I can't help but wonder if there is more 349 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:29.279 consolidation in this area, could we be more efficient as 350 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.240 an organization. The second thing that I would say, and 351 00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.200 we now work with many state governments, but it's becoming 352 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:41.400 abundantly clear that most of the Safety Net isn't digitized yet. 353 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:45.200 In some cases, the eligibility rules are digitized. They've made 354 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:51.680 it onto a website or a PDF document, but there's 355 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:56.400 no real accounting system. Like the reason why electronic medical 356 00:21:56.400 --> 00:22:01.880 records are valuable is because they've applied codes to every 357 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.960 service that's provided. The reason why they've provided codes to 358 00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:08.799 every service that's provided is because you know, that's how 359 00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:11.799 you pay providers and things like that. In the safety Net, 360 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:16.559 we're in the first inning of basically taxonomizing and itemizing 361 00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:21.640 every single service that could be provided. EHRs started as 362 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.319 a way of basically accounting for code sets. It has 363 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.160 led to some pretty amazing innovations where a doctor can 364 00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.640 see your history and he can help prevent a disease 365 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.400 that you may not have popped up when you came in. 366 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.119 And so I think the point being though, is imagine 367 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.319 a quick books for social services where you can actually 368 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:45.400 drill in to you mentioned a trillion dollars a year. Absolutely, 369 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.359 but imagine being able to drill into a county government 370 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:51.079 and then to see how that budget is broken up. 371 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.079 But then to be able to drill all the way 372 00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:57.160 in to an anonymized person to say, huh, this is 373 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.559 the distribution. And so I think

think if we try 374 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:05.079 for the digitization of the safety net and figuring out 375 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.880 which resources are applied to who, whether it's government or 376 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.160 whether it's nonprofits, I think what we're going to be 377 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:15.480 able to find is that that trillion dollars is enough 378 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:19.680 to do serious to help people seriously move out of poverty. 379 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.119 It isn't always a popular argument to make that case, 380 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:30.480 but having seen the workflows of thousands of organizations over 381 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.920 the last sixteen years, I mean I'm in the camp 382 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:39.160 that believes it's totally possible, and it's probably inevitable. 383 00:23:40.839 --> 00:23:45.799 You mentioned you've indexed all of these services or programs 384 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.000 throughout the country. Do you have any guests on the number? 385 00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:51.640 What I mean by that is that the number of 386 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.240 programs or things that exist in the safety net and 387 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.160 on the government side. A lot of the research that 388 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.759 we've done and stuff we've done with American Price Institute 389 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.640 in other organizations, the number I hear the most often, 390 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.400 at least as far as the federal social welfare system 391 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.599 is over eighty programs. Kind of the federal level, I've 392 00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.880 heard some estimates say, well it's over one hundred programs. 393 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.359 So if we say, okay, federally, there's maybe somewhere between 394 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:19.480 over eighty to over one hundred federal social welfare programs. 395 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:21.920 Do you have any rough guess of if you factor 396 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:26.160 it in all of the private and nonprofit programs or offerings, 397 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.119 how big is the safety net really when you encompass 398 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.400 everything together. Is that a knowable number? Even? 399 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:35.720 Yeah? Yeah, I have a rough guess, and that is 400 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:42.799 if you take the trillion dollars and that are being redistributed, 401 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:45.440 if you will, across the US safety net, we believe 402 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.000 about three hundred and twenty five thousand organizations are involved 403 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.519 in the redistribution of that money. The far majority of 404 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:58.079 that are nonprofits that are recipients of level recipients at 405 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:00.799 level two, three, and four of those grants. So it's 406 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:06.000 incredibly fragmented market where most of the dollars are funneled 407 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.839 through the federal government to the fifty states, in some 408 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:13.680 cases federal to counties. That's where you know, the majority 409 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.039 of the money funnels through. But once it gets through 410 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.400 you know, state governments, depending on the program, it then 411 00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:22.640 makes its way to county government, city governments, and then 412 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.680 it's eventually distributed to the nonprofits that are involved in 413 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:33.079 local neighborhoods and things like that. So it is a 414 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:35.799 large group of people and there's not a lot of 415 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.680 best practices. There's certainly not a lot of best practices 416 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:42.880 for accounting for the money, meaning how how do you 417 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:49.440 taxonomize sitting down with somebody talking to them about a loss, 418 00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:53.880 you know, or you know, just dropping off food. And 419 00:25:53.920 --> 00:26:02.119 there's some nascent efforts, but just identifying I don't imagine 420 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.279 there's probably more I'm guessing right now, but you know, 421 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:13.680 let's say generously there's five thousand different services that that 422 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:16.720 trillion dollars is funding five thousand different types of services. 423 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.839 You can imagine going through all the different types of 424 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:21.799 services and getting the right groups together to sort of 425 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:25.400 taxonomize those types of services. Then you can begin to 426 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:29.240 map to the dollar you know, which organization, you know 427 00:26:29.240 --> 00:26:31.559 which of these three hundred twenty five thousand organizations do 428 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:35.279 which types of services. I think only when you do 429 00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.279 that can you then get to quality and outcomes. But 430 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.359 finding you know, the folks that sort of get that 431 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.000 and actually believe it, so that we're not arguing about 432 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.359 well just just you know, throw more money at it's 433 00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.519 Those are very unproductive arguments. Now, I'm I know healthcare 434 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.960 is messed up, and I'm not an expert whatsoever, but 435 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.759 the safety net is fixable and taxonomizing is going to 436 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:05.519 go a long way. And our theory as a company 437 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:08.119 is that the more of this you can digitize and 438 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:12.039 sort of put into the light, then policymakers can now 439 00:27:12.119 -->

00:27:16.839 look at it and say, huh, imagine, because once that 440 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.599 stuff gets digitized, we're going to be able to assign 441 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.240 the service received to somebody who's actually received it. And 442 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.240 you can imagine a world where what if you notice 443 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:31.720 that people's income goes up after interacting with this specific 444 00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:35.880 organization or this type of organization, policymakers are then going 445 00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:38.640 to be able to, you know, think through maybe we 446 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:41.519 should fund more of this type of you know, job 447 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.519 service or this type of intervention. And so. But the 448 00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:50.839 big lift, I think is the digitization component and getting 449 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.119 into those detail workflows. 450 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:54.759 I think that's a really good point. And also you 451 00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:00.000 just mentioned that, I guess my approach I would want 452 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.680 to be approached in terms of rejecting the argument that 453 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:08.119 we just need wholesale to just increase budgets and bloon 454 00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:11.200 welfare roles and universal basic income and those kinds of things. 455 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.680 But if there are specific interventions that show real promise 456 00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:17.640 of the actual goal of the safety net, which is 457 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:21.359 helping people move toward work based reliance, shift more resources 458 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.480 there rather than maybe other areas whereas duplicative or unnecessary. 459 00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:27.759 And it ties into this broader theme that I wanted 460 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:30.039 to ask you about because you mentioned President Johnson and 461 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.440 the launch of the Warren Poverty and you know, the 462 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.440 nineteen sixties of his speeches talking about the sort of 463 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:39.759 the philosophical foundation for a lot of the programs we 464 00:28:39.799 --> 00:28:41.839 have today at the federal level that we'd consider part 465 00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.839 of the social safety net. And we have a paper 466 00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.680 that we released a couple weeks ago here from Sutherland 467 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.039 that I wrote that dives into some of that sort 468 00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:56.480 of articulating that underlying aspirational vision. And then how are 469 00:28:56.480 --> 00:28:58.680 we doing today? So I want to ask you that question. 470 00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.759 When you think of the the original aspirational intent of 471 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.680 the War on Poverty, and then you look at the 472 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.400 nature of our system today as a country and the 473 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.599 outcomes we get today and the way families have to 474 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.200 navigate it, how are we doing and living up to 475 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.960 the aspirational vision of the War on Poverty today in 476 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:20.519 twenty twenty six And what would you do differently? 477 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:28.119 So that's a great question. Living in Central Texas and 478 00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:31.319 going to the LBJ School a few years afterwards, I 479 00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:35.599 decided to read Robert Carroll's books about Lenda Johnson, which 480 00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:38.720 they're huge, truth be told, I bought them, but I 481 00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:45.960 listened to them on audible on flights. And Johnson lived 482 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:51.640 poverty himself as a kid, and you see the letters 483 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:57.440 to his grandma in the library, and I don't doubt 484 00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:01.400 that his motivation was real, especially given that time period, 485 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.039 and you know, he could get things through and he 486 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:09.559 can get the votes. Nobody better. But I think he 487 00:30:09.640 --> 00:30:13.039 was probably aspirational that we would fix it as a society, 488 00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:19.119 and I think ultimately he would be disappointed. But in 489 00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.880 some measures, are people going hungry as much as they 490 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.720 used to? Know? In some measures, are people dying on 491 00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:30.440 porches like they used to? Definitely not. But along the way, 492 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.799 we did disincentivize things through benefit clips, cliffs and things 493 00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:41.920 like that. And I'm not a person that believes that 494 00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.480 there's a bunch of people scheming. Of course, you know, 495 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.359 there's always going to be anomalies in any industry, and 496 00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:50.720 of course that that happens, but most people would rather 497 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:56.039 have a work insurance plan so that they no longer 498 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.400 have to have the stigma of being on medicaid. As 499 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:04.200 a kid, uh, you know at times where you know, 500 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:06.400 times were tough. At one point we were on food 501 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.359 stamps and I remember fifth grade not wanting to go 502 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:11.759 to the grocery store with my mom because I didn't 503 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:13.720 want We're from a small town. I didn't want them 504 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:15.559 to see that we're paying with food stamps. Is before 505 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.079 EBT cards. You know, back in the day, and so 506 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:20.440 there is a stigma and I think most people don't

507 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.799 want to be dependent, but they also don't want their 508 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:28.680 family to go hungry and so. But but interestingly, when 509 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.720 you look at health insurance, people would people would rather 510 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:34.480 have the plan that is offered at work than medicaid. 511 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:39.119 And I find that very interesting from a human nature perspective, 512 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:43.480 is most people don't want to be dependent. And it 513 00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:48.039 is dangerous the level of pandering in this area because 514 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:51.359 the comments are made by people that do not understand 515 00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:55.720 this population and the deeply held stigma that this population holds. 516 00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.480 But it is intimidating when you know you've lost half 517 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:06.519 your teeth and you're worried about an interview and you've 518 00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:09.319 been unemployed for a long time and you feel ignorant 519 00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:12.440 and you maybe don't sound like you may not have 520 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:17.319 nice clothes. I really like what we're trying to do 521 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.119 lately and to fund programs that are helping boost people's confidence. 522 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:23.839 I heard of a program that a Health Plan is 523 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:26.720 funding in West Virginia that will help fix people's teeth, 524 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:29.640 which helps their confidence. And that was a private sector 525 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:34.519 organization trying to do a good thing, but being able 526 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:37.359 to work on the things that lead to confidence. There's 527 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:41.160 no doubt it's a good job market, certainly for people 528 00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:47.000 in this population. But if you think of the lack 529 00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:49.599 of someone to put their arm around them and to 530 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:52.519 coach them and to walk them through and really the 531 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.160 only alternative is sort of a sterile government office, that's 532 00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:58.920 what seems to be missing. And you know, going back 533 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:04.039 to you know, the conservative heart David Brooks's book or 534 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:10.559 sorry Arthur Brooks, if what if we do fund those 535 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:14.480 organizations that are in the nitty gritty and they're sitting 536 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.880 down and say, hey, I get it, you know you're 537 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:20.759 you're embarrassed. Let me help. Let's go get you some clothes. 538 00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:26.559 And what they need is the time and allowing safety 539 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.160 net dollars to be spent funding these people that are 540 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:32.640 willing to put in the time and maybe they maybe 541 00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:38.039 they are have have you moved on past these programs themselves, 542 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:40.759 But I think that would be a good investment. And 543 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:45.119 and uh so, I think flexibility is important with respect 544 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:48.799 to government safety net dollars and that's going to lead, 545 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.279 you know, to that movement into self sufficiency. I'm still 546 00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.599 a believer that everybody wants to go into self sufficient 547 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:56.559 they want to be self sufficient, they want jobs. 548 00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.839 I would agree we even we had some polling data 549 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:02.920 in our recent Empowerment Acount report from Sutherland Institute that 550 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.000 asked voters across the country what you view as the 551 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.360 purpose of the social safety net, and that was a 552 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.480 key part of it is It's yes, we want to 553 00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:14.320 provide some temporary relief to address material needs for folks 554 00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:17.280 who struggling, but also we want to encourage work in 555 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.079 independence and help get people back on their feet, and 556 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:21.840 that being a goal. And that's when I look at 557 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.320 some of the speeches from President Johnson the nineteen sixties, 558 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:26.960 that's the theme that stands out to be more than 559 00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:29.639 sort of the temporary assistant side of the safety is 560 00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:33.639 the work and independence side, and I feel like we're 561 00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:36.559 still striving for that as a nation. I think in 562 00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:37.840 a lot of ways we're ahead of the curve in 563 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:42.159 some respects here in Utah, but there's always still more 564 00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:44.719 that we can do to improve. And I want to 565 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:47.679 ask you as you think about how how to talk 566 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:51.480 about these kinds of issues to voters and to policymakers. 567 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.039 Maybe in a couple of minutes we have left, if 568 00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:57.360 you were to say Okay, you know these programs are complicated, 569 00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.559 that the system is complex. Here's the most important thing 570 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.639 that your average voter needs to remember about this issue, 571 00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:07.199 and they need to reflect that and how they vote 572 00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.639 and how they interact with their elected officials and their neighbors. 573 00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:14.119 What's the key message to voters on poverty and opportunity 574 00:35:14.119 -->

00:35:17.760 and independence that you think sometimes gets lost that they 575 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:18.519 need to remember. 576 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:27.079 I think the oversimplification is dangerous, the notion that generosity 577 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:31.320 and government spending are so in sync, and that one 578 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:33.840 view is sort of the pious view and one is 579 00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:37.719 sort of the evil person twisting their mustache. Most people 580 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.519 know that that's not true, but that's what gets magnified. 581 00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:45.519 And I think what I would say in what I've 582 00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:48.679 seen in doing this is, you know, as part of 583 00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.519 my job, I've met with members of different legislators, different governors, 584 00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:55.480 some of the best nonprofits in the world, some of 585 00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:58.440 the biggest insurance companies in the world, and I haven't 586 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:01.639 seen the person twisting their must And I would say 587 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.559 most of the people that I've interacted with want to 588 00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.719 solve these problems, and probably would agree with Linda Johnson 589 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:12.679 and what he wanted, but it's disingenuous to paint a 590 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.760 black and white utopia of well, if there's ubi university 591 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.800 basic income, then these problems would go away. Well, the 592 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:23.559 honest truth is inflation would go up and up and up, 593 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:25.320 and things will get more and more expensive. And so 594 00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:27.599 whether you need it or not, that's a different story. 595 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:36.000 But as you ask these questions, find the politicians that 596 00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.320 will sit down and talk to you about the nuance. 597 00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:41.920 And I think what you find is that they all 598 00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:44.480 have family members that have struggled from time to time, 599 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.800 whether it's with addiction or poverty or whatever the case 600 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.800 may be. But if there's a way of basically doing 601 00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:55.320 your own homework and sort of saying, look, what if 602 00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.960 we accept that there's somebody in some primary that's compassionate, 603 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:04.719 can we make a difference but not accept sort of 604 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:09.519 the demonization. We are a very generous country and I 605 00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:11.159 see that every day in the work that we do, 606 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:17.920 and we want. I believe the American dream is alive 607 00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:21.639 and well, it just has a bad PR firm. Right now. 608 00:37:25.559 --> 00:37:28.440 I think

we're I think we're at an area where 609 00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:33.119 we're we're tightening bolts and working around the edges with 610 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:37.360 the information that is now available that is digitized. Now, 611 00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:40.480 I can see a safety net in the future worse 612 00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:44.280 where social workers care coordinators are going to have so 613 00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:50.800 much flexibility that if the difference between somebody moving on 614 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.960 to the job is getting their teeth fixed and some 615 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:55.960 clothes in a resume, somebody's going to be able to 616 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.440 just do that and pay for it and then we 617 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:02.480 figure out who pays for it later. I think that's 618 00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:05.800 the dignified way to go. And so I would say 619 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:08.639 pay attention to those that are actually having the conversations 620 00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:13.440 and not demonizing each other, because I think that's how 621 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:16.679 we get there. I'll close on this. I had a 622 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:19.840 chance to visit Tod McGee, who's a deputy director of 623 00:38:20.039 --> 00:38:24.039 the two and one here in Salt Lake, and it's 624 00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:30.079 in a building where an affordable housing They turned office 625 00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:34.960 offices into affordable housing complex and while they're there, they're 626 00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.760 paying rent and they're building equity. And that is a 627 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:44.679 really interesting solution where people are moving from an unstable 628 00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.840 housing situation to a more housing situation. They're paying rent, 629 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:52.039 and after time, after they build that equity, they're able 630 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.880 to use that as a down payment, you know, for 631 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:56.280 something a little bit more more permanent. And I think 632 00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.920 I think the private sector has a chance to solve 633 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:04.679 this in the long run with government paying attention. 634 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.199 Aaron, We'll have to leave it there for time, but 635 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.159 this has been excellent. Hope to have you back and 636 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.800 just appreciate the work you're doing. I love anytime there 637 00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:17.679 is a private sector innovative solution to issues like poverty 638 00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:21.079 and safety net reform, because frankly, I think we need 639 00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:23.440 more of that. And I appreciate your time talking us 640 00:39:23.480 --> 00:39:26.440 through these issues here on defending ideas well. 641 00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:27.199 Thanks for having me. 642 00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.679 We're going to take

one quick break before leave you 643 00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:33.440 with some talking points. This is defending Ideas. We'll be 644 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:33.960 right back. 645 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.159 Sometimes it's hard to keep up with the latest policy 646 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:44.840 debate that affects your life. The Solution Subscribe to Sutherland 647 00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:48.800 Institute's weekly newsletter, where you'll find in depth insights from 648 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:54.440 seasoned policy experts, compelling multimedia, and advance notice of special events. 649 00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.320 Visit Sutherland Institute dot org. 650 00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.559 Welcome back, and thanks again to Aaron Gray with fine 651 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:05.480 help for joining us on this episode. The next time 652 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:08.880 you see a debate over social welfare programs, I want 653 00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.840 you to try and shift the conversation away from simply well, 654 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.880 how much money is being spent or the provision of 655 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.079 material resources in the first place. Instead, ask this question, 656 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:24.719 to what extent are our national anti poverty policies actually 657 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:29.519 helping people move closer to work based independence with dignity. 658 00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:32.719 The true goal of the War on poverty was not, 659 00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:37.480 and still is not, simply providing material resources to struggling 660 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:40.880 families to cover basic needs. To be sure the safety 661 00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:45.840 net has alleviated deprivation and suffering, but the ultimate goal 662 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.920 is really about skills, work and independence. Discussions like the 663 00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:53.760 one we just had with Aaron are rightly focused on 664 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:58.440 helping people better navigate the system in pursuit of the goal, 665 00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:03.760 which is and always should be work based independence. Well 666 00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:06.400 that's it for this episode of Defending Ideas. If you 667 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:10.960 enjoyed this discussion, please visit Defendingideas dot org, where you 668 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:14.559 can access previous episodes and watch or listen on your 669 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:18.760 favorite platform. Don't forget to subscribe to Defending Ideas on 670 00:41:18.800 --> 00:41:23.000 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you like to get 671 00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:25.920 your shows. And please share this episode with a friend, 672 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:30.159 family member, or coworker who may find it valuable. And lastly, 673 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.800 if you want to support the broader work of Sutherland Institute. 674 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.639 If you want more conversations like this, please make a 675 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:43.719 contribution at Sutherland Institute dot org, slash domat. Thanks again 676 00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:47.199 for joining us on defending ideas from the Sutherland Institute 677 00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:49.760 in Salt Lake City. I'm mcdune. We'll see you anytime