התמלול המלא של Making a Murderer (Episodes 1–3) — Narrative Framing, Omission, and Bias

00:03:58,035 --> 00:04:02,055 And by the second episode it started to seem familiar, but I did have to go back. 79 00:04:02,835 --> 00:04:04,395 'cause as we all know, I'm weird. 80 00:04:04,395 --> 00:04:10,455 And if I consume anything in between us talking about it, then I forget there's 81 00:04:10,455 --> 00:04:11,925 not enough room in my brain for it. 82 00:04:12,015 --> 00:04:12,915 John: That makes sense. 83 00:04:13,335 --> 00:04:14,445 Angela: It pushes something out. 84 00:04:14,445 --> 00:04:16,965 It's like Dream Catcher you have to get rid of. 85 00:04:17,055 --> 00:04:18,644 John: You gotta get rid of so, so you fat. 86 00:04:18,765 --> 00:04:18,915 Yeah. 87 00:04:18,915 --> 00:04:19,485 That makes you gotta 88 00:04:19,485 --> 00:04:21,075 Angela: get rid of the lyrics to Blue by you. 89 00:04:21,075 --> 00:04:22,635 So you remember all the other stuff. 90 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:22,830 John: Yeah. 91 00:04:23,265 --> 00:04:23,475 Angela: Yeah. 92 00:04:23,715 --> 00:04:27,375 John: So the documentary came out in 2015 and, 93 00:04:27,675 --> 00:04:29,085 Angela: oh, I am late to the bus, aren't I? 94 00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:30,990 John: Yeah, pretty late. 95 00:04:30,990 --> 00:04:32,025 Angela: Yeah, a little bit late. 96 00:04:32,115 --> 00:04:34,905 John: It actually premiered yesterday. 97 00:04:35,045 --> 00:04:37,535 December 18th in 2015. 98 00:04:37,595 --> 00:04:40,805 Oh, and it's one of the reasons that it hit so big, fitting 99 00:04:40,805 --> 00:04:42,215 Angela: that I rewatched some of it yesterday 100 00:04:42,425 --> 00:04:47,495 John: because it, it hit right when everybody was home on 101 00:04:47,495 --> 00:04:48,815 Christmas break and everything. 102 00:04:49,175 --> 00:04:55,325 And so everybody just binge washed this freaking thing and holy crap. 103 00:04:55,325 --> 00:04:56,045 Did he get babe? 104 00:04:56,255 --> 00:05:00,485 Angela: It was kind of like, uh oh man. 105 00:05:00,930 --> 00:05:05,969 The Tiger King in 2020 almost broke the internet because everybody 106 00:05:05,969 --> 00:05:09,000 was home for COVID and they all binge watched Tiger King. 107 00:05:09,060 --> 00:05:09,840 John: Oh yeah, that makes sense. 108 00:05:09,844 --> 00:05:10,255 I haven't 109 00:05:10,375 --> 00:05:12,570 Angela: finished that yet either, so I don't know much about it. 110 00:05:12,570 --> 00:05:14,940 John: But yeah, I kinda lost interest, honestly. 111 00:05:15,180 --> 00:05:22,350 But so episode one of Making a Murder, it starts out with, you know, Stephen Avery. 112 00:05:22,350 --> 00:05:24,510 He's this guy, he's in prison. 113 00:05:24,780 --> 00:05:31,080 He just did 18 years in prison for the 1985 sexual assault of Penny Bernstein. 114 00:05:31,260 --> 00:05:31,650 Angela: Mm-hmm. 115 00:05:32,159 --> 00:05:37,650 John: And then 2003, he was exonerated, DNA evidence came out 116 00:05:37,890 --> 00:05:41,880 proving that he definitely was not the guy that assaulted her. 117 00:05:42,420 --> 00:05:50,310 And so episode one really kind of focuses on that whole aspect. 118 00:05:50,340 --> 00:05:55,200 His previous 1985 conviction, the DNA results that exonerated 119 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,270 him, him coming home. 120 00:05:57,270 --> 00:05:59,760 He's this big teddy bear, kind of a. 121 00:05:59,865 --> 00:06:03,285 Frigging moron with his big ass, stupid looking beard and 122 00:06:03,285 --> 00:06:03,705 Angela: yeah. 123 00:06:03,855 --> 00:06:04,695 Oh man. 124 00:06:05,595 --> 00:06:05,955 John: Yeah. 125 00:06:05,955 --> 00:06:06,225 He needed 126 00:06:06,225 --> 00:06:07,245 Angela: a brush bag. 127 00:06:07,365 --> 00:06:08,505 John: He needed something. 128 00:06:08,505 --> 00:06:08,625 I was 129 00:06:08,775 --> 00:06:10,035 Angela: definitely judging. 130 00:06:10,035 --> 00:06:11,325 I was definitely judging. 131 00:06:11,445 --> 00:06:11,955 John: Yeah. 132 00:06:12,345 --> 00:06:16,305 So I guess, first of all, what were your thoughts on episode one? 133 00:06:16,305 --> 00:06:18,225 All of all of that shit? 134 00:06:18,585 --> 00:06:22,035 Angela: Honestly, I was, it could have started better. 135 00:06:23,145 --> 00:06:25,635 'cause I, I think I was telling you this the other day, I 136 00:06:25,965 --> 00:06:27,465 feel like I missed an episode. 137 00:06:27,465 --> 00:06:28,455 It just started. 138 00:06:28,935 --> 00:06:29,235 John: Yeah. 139 00:06:29,955 --> 00:06:31,665 Angela: Like, not who are we talking about? 140 00:06:31,665 --> 00:06:32,445 What's going on? 141 00:06:32,445 --> 00:06:33,135 It just 142 00:06:33,675 --> 00:06:34,605 John: dove right into it. 143 00:06:34,665 --> 00:06:36,105 Angela: Threw me into the deep end. 144 00:06:36,345 --> 00:06:36,735 John: Yeah. 145 00:06:37,785 --> 00:06:41,685 Angela: And I was like, I, I literally went back and said, did I miss an episode? 146 00:06:41,685 --> 00:06:42,315 And I hadn't. 147 00:06:42,855 --> 00:06:46,365 So it was, I don't like how it started Netflix people. 148 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:53,414 John: Well, it, it actually was, I mean, Netflix definitely was very instrumental 149 00:06:53,414 --> 00:06:56,594 in the show, but it was a lawyer. 150 00:06:56,715 --> 00:06:57,045 Angela: Yeah. 151 00:06:57,284 --> 00:06:59,805 John: And she was writing a subway train. 152 00:06:59,805 --> 00:07:02,265 It didn't go through this in the actual series. 153 00:07:02,715 --> 00:07:02,775 No. 154 00:07:02,775 --> 00:07:03,284 So he's not 155 00:07:03,284 --> 00:07:04,485 Angela: yet, not where I'm at. 156 00:07:04,635 --> 00:07:06,765 John: So she is a lawyer or a law student. 157 00:07:06,765 --> 00:07:09,675 I can't remember if sh I don't think she had passed the bar yet. 158 00:07:10,425 --> 00:07:11,985 Anyways, it doesn't matter. 159 00:07:12,164 --> 00:07:18,044 She was a, at least the law student and living in New York and riding 160 00:07:18,044 --> 00:07:24,195 the train and was reading an article in the New York Times, I think about 161

00:07:24,195 --> 00:07:28,965 the Stephen Re case and she just decided, this is my new calling. 162 00:07:28,995 --> 00:07:31,275 I'm gonna be a documentary filmmaker. 163 00:07:31,905 --> 00:07:36,044 Traveler Asta Wisconsin started this whole big shit show with 164 00:07:36,044 --> 00:07:39,255 her partner, whatever they are. 165 00:07:40,395 --> 00:07:40,815 Angela: Okay. 166 00:07:40,875 --> 00:07:43,065 John: And they are the two women that. 167 00:07:43,575 --> 00:07:44,955 Produced this crap. 168 00:07:46,724 --> 00:07:48,914 Angela: Well, we know how John feels, end of story. 169 00:07:48,974 --> 00:07:49,575 John: Yes. 170 00:07:50,810 --> 00:07:56,474 So, so one of the things, uh, that, that is discussed that I have a 171 00:07:56,474 --> 00:08:03,135 big problem with is discussed in episode one, is they kind of go 172 00:08:03,135 --> 00:08:05,864 through his criminal background. 173 00:08:05,955 --> 00:08:06,224 Angela: Yeah. 174 00:08:06,284 --> 00:08:06,525 And 175 00:08:06,525 --> 00:08:10,304 John: how he was really not that bad of a guy. 176 00:08:10,304 --> 00:08:14,114 I mean, he broke name a lot on his, just having his last name. 177 00:08:14,625 --> 00:08:15,224 Like Yeah. 178 00:08:15,255 --> 00:08:15,705 Avery's a back. 179 00:08:15,705 --> 00:08:17,145 He was an Avery. 180 00:08:17,205 --> 00:08:17,445 Yeah. 181 00:08:17,474 --> 00:08:21,135 And he was picked on by the police. 182 00:08:21,135 --> 00:08:22,365 They picked on him and his 183 00:08:22,365 --> 00:08:23,984 Angela: cousins picked on him 184 00:08:24,044 --> 00:08:27,794 John: and he really didn't do anything all that serious. 185 00:08:28,065 --> 00:08:32,865 Uh, he broke into a bar and stole $14 worth of quarters. 186 00:08:32,954 --> 00:08:33,255 Yeah. 187 00:08:33,345 --> 00:08:33,855 And. 188 00:08:34,664 --> 00:08:35,505 I don't know. 189 00:08:35,534 --> 00:08:39,554 Threw a cat in a fire, not, you know, nothing, no big deal to them. 190 00:08:39,554 --> 00:08:40,575 Threw it over a fire. 191 00:08:40,605 --> 00:08:40,875 Oh yeah. 192 00:08:41,115 --> 00:08:43,335 Threw a cat over a fire. 193 00:08:43,635 --> 00:08:48,855 And so diving right in on that bunch of bullshit when making a murder 194 00:08:49,365 --> 00:08:53,115 conveniently leaves out is Stephen Avery. 195 00:08:53,170 --> 00:08:58,275 And, and the other thing that it does is he fell in with the wrong group of people. 196 00:08:58,275 --> 00:08:58,335 Yeah. 197 00:08:58,665 --> 00:09:01,605 They're the ones that got him to rob the bar. 198 00:09:01,785 --> 00:09:06,525 They're the ones that got him to throw the cat over the fire. 199 00:09:06,615 --> 00:09:06,675 It 200 00:09:06,675 --> 00:09:09,255 Angela: was like them having their cake and eating it too though. 201 00:09:09,255 --> 00:09:13,935 He either, he either was ostracized and no one talked about him to or 202 00:09:13,935 --> 00:09:18,825 to him or hung out with him, but yet he fell in a crowd of wrong people. 203 00:09:18,825 -->

00:09:19,095 What? 204 00:09:19,125 --> 00:09:19,665 Pick one. 205 00:09:19,665 --> 00:09:20,805 You can't have 'em both. 206 00:09:21,075 --> 00:09:23,295 He can't be alone and with people at the same time. 207 00:09:23,445 --> 00:09:24,855 John: So it's really important to know. 208 00:09:24,915 --> 00:09:27,405 We'll talk about the bar break in first. 209 00:09:27,435 --> 00:09:27,765 Okay. 210 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,670 Start with the son of a bitch broke into the bar three times. 211 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,310 The first time they him do it all three times. 212 00:09:35,310 --> 00:09:38,040 The first time he was completely alone. 213 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:39,329 Broke the window. 214 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:39,510 Yeah. 215 00:09:39,630 --> 00:09:41,609 And broke in and stole some shit. 216 00:09:41,609 --> 00:09:42,180 Same bar. 217 00:09:42,479 --> 00:09:42,989 Same bar. 218 00:09:43,469 --> 00:09:43,500 Okay. 219 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:47,069 Then the bar owner patched up the window with a piece of cardboard. 220 00:09:47,069 --> 00:09:47,099 Aw. 221 00:09:47,819 --> 00:09:54,959 And Avery and his friend went back, tore the cardboard off, broke in again. 222 00:09:55,650 --> 00:10:00,719 And if I remember correctly that time, they stole quite a bit of 223 00:10:00,780 --> 00:10:05,939 alcohol, some money, and I don't think that they destroyed the place. 224 00:10:05,939 --> 00:10:07,349 Too bad that time. 225 00:10:07,890 --> 00:10:12,119 And then the third time they broke in the bar owner had patched the 226 00:10:12,119 --> 00:10:13,949 window with a piece of plywood. 227 00:10:14,189 --> 00:10:14,910 Oh my gosh. 228 00:10:14,910 --> 00:10:15,660 Angela: Bar owner. 229 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:19,260 John: They're, well, I mean, you know, I can't blame the guy they 230 00:10:19,260 --> 00:10:20,760 break in this freaking window. 231 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,370 He probably couldn't get somebody to come and fix it. 232 00:10:23,370 --> 00:10:27,690 So he did the best thing that he could and screwed up a piece of plywood over it. 233 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:32,370 They come rip the plywood off, break in again. 234 00:10:32,670 --> 00:10:37,320 Avery gets a freaking, steals a pizza, cooks it at the place. 235 00:10:37,950 --> 00:10:39,930 And then I did not hear. 236 00:10:40,740 --> 00:10:41,520 Of course not. 237 00:10:41,820 --> 00:10:46,620 And then they just absolutely destroy the place. 238 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:52,470 I mean, break shit, throw shit all over the floor, just wreck the freaking bar. 239 00:10:53,370 --> 00:10:59,850 And then when his dad, and they don't even touch on this in making a murder, 240 00:10:59,850 --> 00:11:01,290 I don't think they even mention it. 241 00:11:01,814 --> 00:11:06,105 His dad goes up to their place up north in Wisconsin, in northern Wisconsin. 242 00:11:06,375 --> 00:11:10,305 They have, um, cabin, like a, yeah, it's, it's just a house, but they 243 00:11:10,305 --> 00:11:11,985 call it kind of a cabin or whatever. 244 00:11:12,225 --> 00:11:16,185 His dad goes up there, sees a whole freaking garage full of shit, 245 00:11:16,574 --> 00:11:18,855 lawnmowers and all kinds of shit. 246 00:11:19,064 --> 00:11:22,275 Calls the cops and is like, I got a whole bunch of shit 247 00:11:22,275 --> 00:11:24,135 that I don't, that isn't mine. 248 00:11:24,135 --> 00:11:24,885 I don't own. 249 00:11:25,185 --> 00:11:29,595 So the cops come, we'll come to find out he's stolen all this shit from neighbors. 250 00:11:30,105 --> 00:11:30,225 Oh geez. 251 00:11:31,155 --> 00:11:35,805 And I think if, if memory serves me correctly, him and his wife went on their 252 00:11:35,805 --> 00:11:39,885 honeymoon and he stole a bunch of shit while, while they were on their honeymoon. 253 00:11:39,915 --> 00:11:44,535 Mm. I mean, the guy is a freaking pile of shit, thieving bastard. 254 00:11:44,775 --> 00:11:45,795 No doubt about it. 255 00:11:46,125 --> 00:11:47,205 No doubt about it. 256 00:11:47,325 --> 00:11:47,535 Okay. 257 00:11:47,595 --> 00:11:49,125 But they leave all of that out. 258 00:11:49,185 --> 00:11:49,395 Yeah. 259 00:11:49,425 --> 00:11:51,165 Conveniently in making a murderer. 260 00:11:51,255 --> 00:11:51,735 Angela: Yeah. 261 00:11:51,915 --> 00:11:52,665 John: Second part. 262 00:11:52,665 --> 00:11:52,815 He used 263 00:11:52,815 --> 00:11:54,345 Angela: to feel bad for him a lot. 264 00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:54,645 John: Oh yeah. 265 00:11:54,645 --> 00:11:55,905 'cause he is so picked on. 266 00:11:56,175 --> 00:11:57,765 Angela: I feel bad for his parents though. 267 00:11:58,125 --> 00:11:59,565 Is that warranted? 268 00:11:59,805 --> 00:12:00,195 John: No. 269 00:12:00,465 --> 00:12:02,025 His dad's a total piece of shit. 270 00:12:02,030 --> 00:12:02,570 Angela: Dad, Dave, 271 00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:04,725 John: his dad is a total piece of shit. 272 00:12:05,175 --> 00:12:05,655 I feel. 273 00:12:05,775 --> 00:12:08,745 I feel bad for his brothers and his sister. 274 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:11,310 But I don't feel bad for, no, I get 275 00:12:11,310 --> 00:12:12,360 Angela: that feeling from his sister. 276 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:13,380 I thought she was a little 277 00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:14,580 John: Oh no. 278 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,050 He beat the piss out at her. 279 00:12:16,110 --> 00:12:16,650 Oh, really? 280 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:17,220 Oh, yeah. 281 00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:17,250 Angela: Okay. 282 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:17,700 John: Yeah. 283 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,620 And that, you know, that you won't, there 284 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:20,550 Angela: are things I don't know. 285 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:20,700 Well, 286 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:23,970 John: these are things that you won't know because Making a murder 287 00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:29,490 does not cover any of it because it's not a documentary at all. 288 00:12:29,955 --> 00:12:30,405 It's a freeze. 289 00:12:30,405 --> 00:12:32,790 It's absolute

bullshit. 290 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:37,080 Just a, a figment of these two women's imagination is 291 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,880 essentially what this shit is. 292 00:12:40,065 --> 00:12:42,345 Angela: Like, did they have a crush on him or something? 293 00:12:42,345 --> 00:12:42,555 What? 294 00:12:42,555 --> 00:12:45,225 Why did they No, I think him so wonderfully. 295 00:12:45,285 --> 00:12:49,575 John: Well, honestly, what I think happened, and I am just, this is my 296 00:12:49,575 --> 00:12:51,705 opinion, I am just guessing at this. 297 00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:51,860 Yeah. 298 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:57,465 But what I, this is our opinions people, but what I think happened is they, 299 00:12:57,585 --> 00:13:03,315 this check saw this article and she decided that this guy was, you know, 300 00:13:03,315 --> 00:13:06,825 innocent and they were going out to do this story on this innocent man. 301 00:13:07,245 --> 00:13:11,295 And then the whole Theresa Halach thing happened. 302 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:11,540 Mm-hmm. 303 00:13:11,715 --> 00:13:15,975 And their whole idea would go out the window Yeah. 304 00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:17,115 If he was guilty. 305 00:13:17,355 --> 00:13:20,865 And so they just decided to whitewash the whole thing and turn it into 306 00:13:21,105 --> 00:13:23,265 the cops are attacking this guy. 307 00:13:23,385 --> 00:13:23,745 Angela: Yeah. 308 00:13:24,405 --> 00:13:28,935 John: And so, and, and like the cat thing is another perfect example of that. 309 00:13:29,445 --> 00:13:34,935 Making a murderer makes it sound like you said he threw a cat over a fire Yeah. 310 00:13:34,935 --> 00:13:36,255 And got busted for. 311 00:13:36,810 --> 00:13:37,860 Cruelty to animals. 312 00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:43,590 What happened was he chased this cat around, caught it, covered it in gasoline, 313 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:45,690 and threw it in the freaking fire. 314 00:13:45,930 --> 00:13:47,220 Angela: And he said it was the family cat. 315 00:13:47,490 --> 00:13:48,330 John: Yeah, it was his family. 316 00:13:48,330 --> 00:13:48,420 Yeah. 317 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:50,010 It was the family cat sauna. 318 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:56,310 And then it, the poor damn thing jumped out of the fire like any animal was gonna 319 00:13:56,310 --> 00:14:00,780 do scattering for its head and this son of a bitch catches it, pours more gas on 320 00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:03,390 it and throws it back in the fire to die. 321 00:14:03,690 --> 00:14:06,270 I mean, that is cruelty beyond. 322 00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:07,860 This is a special place in hell, dude. 323 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:13,260 Well, and it, I mean, it's ironically part of the homicidal triad Yeah. 324 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:17,610 That we learn about from freaking the FBI that, you know, serial killers 325 00:14:17,610 --> 00:14:19,410 oftentimes are cruel to animals. 326 00:14:19,415 --> 00:14:19,625 Right. 327 00:14:20,385 --> 00:14:23,775 So, and And that is completely whitewashed. 328 00:14:23,775 --> 00:14:26,685 Completely whitewashed by making a murderer. 329 00:14:27,045 --> 00:14:27,615 They make it. 330 00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:27,860 This 331 00:14:27,860 --> 00:14:28,785 Angela: is all in good fun. 332 00:14:28,785 --> 00:14:30,314 We're all around the campfire. 333 00:14:30,495 --> 00:14:30,645 John: Yeah. 334 00:14:30,645 --> 00:14:33,194 They make it seem like it was a couple of teenagers. 335 00:14:33,194 --> 00:14:34,574 Don't doing dumb shit. 336 00:14:34,605 --> 00:14:36,255 The guy was married at this point. 337 00:14:36,255 --> 00:14:36,345 Mm-hmm. 338 00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:38,084 He's no freaking teenager. 339 00:14:38,175 --> 00:14:42,015 He's a grown ass man and he's an evil son of a bitch. 340 00:14:42,015 --> 00:14:44,324 That is cruel as hell. 341 00:14:44,324 --> 00:14:49,245 I can't even imagine trying to kill any animal. 342 00:14:49,454 --> 00:14:49,875 I know. 343 00:14:49,935 --> 00:14:53,444 By throwing it in a freaking fire covered in gasoline. 344 00:14:53,444 --> 00:14:55,064 What that is Just evil. 345 00:14:55,064 --> 00:14:55,125 Yeah. 346 00:14:55,515 --> 00:14:55,995 Evil. 347 00:14:56,835 --> 00:15:03,314 And so it is absolutely bullshit the way that they covered that. 348 00:15:03,464 --> 00:15:03,855 Angela: Okay. 349 00:15:04,245 --> 00:15:08,145 John: And then, you know, they make it seem like in this 1985 350 00:15:08,145 --> 00:15:12,555 sexual assault investigation that deputies decided right away. 351 00:15:12,795 --> 00:15:13,064 Angela: Yeah. 352 00:15:13,545 --> 00:15:15,555 John: It was absolutely Stephen Avery. 353 00:15:16,425 --> 00:15:18,675 The guy had a picture of him before he drew it. 354 00:15:18,704 --> 00:15:18,974 Yeah. 355 00:15:18,974 --> 00:15:25,425 They made it all up and, and convinced the, but they really compressed like 356 00:15:25,694 --> 00:15:29,985 decades of paperwork and shit into this. 357 00:15:31,334 --> 00:15:35,265 Uh, I don't know, to make it just seem like the cops just didn't 358 00:15:35,265 --> 00:15:38,535 like this guy, first of all, the guy is a total piece of shit. 359 00:15:38,714 --> 00:15:39,885 He's a total piece of shit. 360 00:15:40,094 --> 00:15:44,805 And it's not that unusual when you're a total piece of shit and you the 361 00:15:44,805 --> 00:15:49,935 cops to not, and you have been in countless amounts of trouble mm-hmm. 362 00:15:50,175 --> 00:15:54,375 Burglaries and, and the shit with, with his cousin. 363 00:15:54,375 --> 00:15:59,295 And you've been in all this freaking trouble and it's not that 364 00:15:59,295 --> 00:16:01,064 unusual that the cops look at you. 365 00:16:01,785 --> 00:16:03,435 It's not that strange. 366 00:16:03,615 --> 00:16:06,525 And then the victim identified him. 367 00:16:07,545 --> 00:16:10,545 So was it a wrongful identification? 368 00:16:10,545 --> 00:16:12,314 Did the cops do anything wrong? 369 00:16:13,155 --> 00:16:18,645 Potentially, maybe, I don't know enough about

that 1985 case to really 370 00:16:18,645 --> 00:16:20,625 come down one way or the other. 371 00:16:20,835 --> 00:16:23,595 I just know it is not that clear cut and simple. 372 00:16:23,775 --> 00:16:27,225 And it's not like you've got this teenage kid that's part of the 373 00:16:27,225 --> 00:16:31,035 wrong family that the cops should just decide they're gonna torment. 374 00:16:31,125 --> 00:16:31,305 Yeah. 375 00:16:31,815 --> 00:16:36,645 The son of a bitch was on the cops radar because he was a criminal period. 376 00:16:37,275 --> 00:16:37,725 What else? 377 00:16:37,725 --> 00:16:39,405 What else do you get to say about that? 378 00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:45,435 Angela: I, I don't, I don't know that I have anymore else to say about, I just, it 379 00:16:45,435 --> 00:16:51,765 does tug at the heartstrings and make you want to believe that he's just picked on. 380 00:16:52,365 --> 00:16:53,625 John: Yeah, it does. 381 00:16:53,925 --> 00:16:58,545 And then so then they also talk about this issue with his cousin. 382 00:16:58,755 --> 00:16:58,965 Angela: Yeah. 383 00:16:59,145 --> 00:17:02,595 John: And she's married to law enforcement. 384 00:17:02,685 --> 00:17:02,775 Mm-hmm. 385 00:17:03,015 --> 00:17:04,845 And she just doesn't like him. 386 00:17:04,935 --> 00:17:08,295 And so she's gonna go after him and. 387 00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:10,980 It's all made up. 388 00:17:10,980 --> 00:17:14,550 And it's only because she has an ax to grind against poor 389 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:18,900 Stephen Avery, who apparently everybody in the world picks on. 390 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:18,990 But 391 00:17:19,020 --> 00:17:20,910 Angela: isn't his uncle in law enforcement too? 392 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:21,780 John: Yes. 393 00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:24,060 His uncle was a sheriff's deputy. 394 00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:24,420 Okay. 395 00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:28,230 But that's not that important apparently. 396 00:17:28,260 --> 00:17:28,590 No. 397 00:17:28,590 --> 00:17:29,550 Her one cares shit. 398 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:35,040 But interestingly, um, she is married to like a reserve officer. 399 00:17:35,790 --> 00:17:38,160 He's not even like a full-time officer. 400 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:39,840 He is like a, a reserve officer. 401 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,870 They call him in when they need some extra help type of shit. 402 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:43,350 Gotcha. 403 00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:47,520 But they completely leave out the whole freaking story. 404 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,240 So having watched it without knowing any of the other stuff, 405 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,560 what is your perspective on the whole Sandra Morris thing? 406 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,330 That's his cousin, Sandra Morris. 407 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,000 And what is your take on that whole thing? 408 00:18:01,005 --> 00:18:06,315 Angela: Um, well, honestly, it's, to me, I thought it was an equal hate thing. 409 00:18:06,375 --> 00:18:11,925 Like they both just equally hated each other, and it was to see who could 410 00:18:11,925 --> 00:18:13,600 just do more damage to the other Right. 411 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:14,955 Is what it felt like to me. 412 00:18:15,315 --> 00:18:15,705 Yeah. 413 00:18:16,305 --> 00:18:21,375 So, I mean, I didn't think, in all honesty, the very first time hearing the 414 00:18:21,375 --> 00:18:26,595 stories, I didn't think either one of them was more a victim than the other one. 415 00:18:27,285 --> 00:18:27,705 John: Fair enough. 416 00:18:27,705 --> 00:18:30,525 'cause I think that that's how it's designed to make you think. 417 00:18:30,525 --> 00:18:30,645 Angela: Yeah. 418 00:18:31,365 --> 00:18:36,075 John: So the story that, um, making a murderer portrays 419 00:18:36,375 --> 00:18:37,665 is exactly what you said. 420 00:18:37,665 --> 00:18:40,575 These two cousins don't like each other, they're fighting with each other. 421 00:18:40,965 --> 00:18:44,625 Um, he came out with a rifle one time and, and yeah. 422 00:18:44,655 --> 00:18:48,480 She said that he was having sex on the front lawn with Yeah. 423 00:18:48,585 --> 00:18:49,755 With his wife and, yeah. 424 00:18:49,815 --> 00:18:50,055 Right. 425 00:18:50,085 --> 00:18:50,415 Okay. 426 00:18:50,955 --> 00:18:51,645 Actual story. 427 00:18:52,365 --> 00:18:56,895 First of all, she never said anything about him having sex on the lawn. 428 00:18:57,135 --> 00:18:58,095 That was a neighbor. 429 00:18:58,350 --> 00:18:58,379 Okay. 430 00:18:59,399 --> 00:19:04,710 Making a murder conveniently edited the testimony to make 431 00:19:04,710 --> 00:19:06,570 it sound like it came Yeah. 432 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,139 From her. 433 00:19:07,139 --> 00:19:11,220 But actually during that deposition, the attorney asked her about it 434 00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:13,350 and she was like, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. 435 00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:13,409 Yeah. 436 00:19:13,409 --> 00:19:14,429 I never said this. 437 00:19:14,429 --> 00:19:15,810 Let me finish the conversation. 438 00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:20,730 He says, but the actual whole conversation was, you know, I 439 00:19:20,730 --> 00:19:22,260 didn't say that this wasn't me. 440 00:19:22,260 --> 00:19:26,850 And then the, then the lawyer realizes, oh yeah, this is attributed to a neighbor. 441 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,409 It's not attributed to you. 442 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:28,620 Mm-hmm. 443 00:19:28,919 --> 00:19:30,870 All that shit's left out of making a murder. 444 00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:30,899 Okay. 445 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,730 They selectively edited to make it sound like she this claim, 446 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:37,020 and now she's lying about it. 447 00:19:37,110 --> 00:19:37,379 Right. 448 00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:39,120 That is not at all what happened. 449 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:39,210 Right. 450 00:19:39,210 --> 00:19:43,500 She didn't make the claim and she pointed that shit out during the deposition. 451 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:48,300 Second

tiny little thing that I think is important to discuss. 452 00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:51,210 He got in his vehicle. 453 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:51,990 Yeah. 454 00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:57,360 Chased her down the road, ran into the back of her car, pushed her off the road, 455 00:19:57,510 --> 00:20:03,150 jumped out with a gun and attempted to kidnap her, at which point she begged. 456 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Please don't I have my daughter on the front seat. 457 00:20:06,930 --> 00:20:09,475 Let me take my daughter to my parents' house. 458 00:20:09,475 --> 00:20:09,875 Mm-hmm. 459 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,430 And then I'll go anywhere with you that you want me to go, but you know, 460 00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:17,370 I can't leave my daughter here on the front seat to freeze to death. 461 00:20:17,430 --> 00:20:17,550 Angela: Yeah. 462 00:20:18,540 --> 00:20:20,310 John: And then Avery, who. 463 00:20:20,940 --> 00:20:26,820 According to making a murder, always fesses up to everything he's ever done. 464 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:27,240 Yep. 465 00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:27,419 Yeah. 466 00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:31,830 He runs home as fast as he can, freaking go, puts the gun under his kids' 467 00:20:32,010 --> 00:20:34,770 bed, strips down, crawls into bed. 468 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:39,600 The cops come because obviously Sandra Morris went to her dad's house and 469 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,280 was like, um, this just happened. 470 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,500 And dad was like, call the cops. 471 00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:43,860 Yeah. 472 00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:48,600 So the cops show up at Steven Avery's house and he comes to the door. 473 00:20:51,149 --> 00:20:53,010 I just woke up, what do you need? 474 00:20:53,010 --> 00:20:53,490 Yeah. 475 00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:58,440 The cop was pretty freaking heads up and he reaches over and puts his hand on the 476 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,480 hood of the car, which is warm as shit. 477 00:21:00,510 --> 00:21:00,629 Yeah. 478 00:21:00,629 --> 00:21:02,430 Because Avery just got back home. 479 00:21:02,879 --> 00:21:07,320 And then, then finally, Avery, once he's busted, then he 480 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,300 finally admits what he did. 481 00:21:09,570 --> 00:21:09,810 Right. 482 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,700 Another big, big, big part to talk about when it comes to 483 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:16,950 that whole Sandra Morris thing. 484 00:21:18,254 --> 00:21:21,615 Avery didn't do 18 years in prison because he was wrongfully 485 00:21:21,615 --> 00:21:23,565 convicted for a 1985 rape. 486 00:21:24,135 --> 00:21:30,675 Avery did 12 years in prison because he was wrongfully convicted for a 1985 rape. 487 00:21:30,915 --> 00:21:31,004 Okay. 488 00:21:31,425 --> 00:21:36,855 He did six years in prison for the armed assault on his freaking cousin 489 00:21:36,855 --> 00:21:41,534 that he was found guilty of and sentenced to six years in prison for. 490 00:21:41,595 --> 00:21:42,014 Gotcha. 491 00:21:42,044 --> 00:21:44,534 So making a murder leaves all that shit out. 492 00:21:44,534 --> 00:21:45,794 That made it seem, yeah. 493 00:21:45,794 --> 00:21:51,075 And then, and that does become important when we get to the whole lawsuit and 494 00:21:51,075 --> 00:21:55,544 the whole reason that the cops are gonna, you know, frame him for murder 495 00:21:56,235 --> 00:22:01,635 because the whole lawsuit is based on a billion dollars a year for 18 years. 496 00:22:01,639 --> 00:22:01,760 Mm-hmm. 497 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,774 Plus $18 million in punitive damages, essentially. 498 00:22:05,774 --> 00:22:06,014 And it was 499 00:22:06,014 --> 00:22:08,205 Angela: like 35 or 32 30 500 00:22:08,205 --> 00:22:08,745 John: 6 million. 501 00:22:08,745 --> 00:22:09,092 36 502 00:22:09,092 --> 00:22:09,440 Angela: million. 503 00:22:09,705 --> 00:22:11,534 John: And so, but in truth. 504 00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:17,040 Only 12 years of that would've applied in the lawsuit because only 12 years of it 505 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,810 was because he was wrongfully convicted. 506 00:22:19,020 --> 00:22:24,720 He was rightfully convicted for the other thing, armed kidnapping, and who 507 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,080 the hell knows what would've happened if she wouldn't have had her kid with 508 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:29,880 her and been able to talk him out? 509 00:22:30,210 --> 00:22:31,260 I think he'd have murdered her. 510 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:31,975 You think so? 511 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,050 I think he would've likely murdered her. 512 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,420 I mean, why else do you kidnap somebody at gunpoint because you 513 00:22:39,420 --> 00:22:40,830 want to take him out to dinner? 514 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,580 Angela: What would've been, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate here. 515 00:22:44,580 --> 00:22:45,210 Absolutely. 516 00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:45,420 John: That's 517 00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:46,170 Angela: what this about. 518 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,190 Why? 519 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,920 Why would he have wanted to kill her? 520 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,150 I mean, because 521 00:22:51,150 --> 00:22:53,040 John: he's a freaking psychopath. 522 00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:53,700 Angela: Well, 523 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:54,810 John: that kills people. 524 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,710 Angela: Like you're definitely gonna get caught if you're killing a family member. 525 00:22:59,910 --> 00:23:03,570 John: You're definitely gonna get caught if you kill a woman that comes to your 526 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:05,970 house to take pictures of your vehicle. 527 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:08,100 Angela: I hadn't gotten that far yet. 528 00:23:09,285 --> 00:23:11,625 John: The son of a bitch does not think ahead. 529 00:23:11,685 --> 00:23:12,075 Okay? 530 00:23:12,195 --> 00:23:19,005 He is the quintessential criminal mind that is too stupid to really plan. 531 00:23:19,005 --> 00:23:23,085 He's not like what would be described as a

highly organized offender. 532 00:23:23,625 --> 00:23:29,085 He reacts on emotion and just does shit because he feels like he's, it's 533 00:23:29,085 --> 00:23:33,225 the same thing with like breaking into the bar, burning the Cadillac. 534 00:23:33,225 --> 00:23:33,285 If 535 00:23:33,285 --> 00:23:35,985 Angela: I'm gonna be accused, I might as well just do it because 536 00:23:35,985 --> 00:23:38,895 they're always saying he's an Avery. 537 00:23:39,705 --> 00:23:41,325 John: I don't think this shit ever happened. 538 00:23:41,385 --> 00:23:41,835 Angela: Okay. 539 00:23:42,075 --> 00:23:46,425 John: They said he's guilty because he freaking breaks into places 540 00:23:46,425 --> 00:23:48,885 and steal shit everywhere he goes. 541 00:23:49,095 --> 00:23:52,545 The son of a bitch can't even go on a honeymoon without breaking 542 00:23:52,545 --> 00:23:54,255 into someplace and stealing shit. 543 00:23:54,885 --> 00:23:56,745 So that, I mean, that's what I think. 544 00:23:56,955 --> 00:23:59,685 Angela: I don't know if it matters, but Where is that wife now? 545 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:01,060 I know. 546 00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:05,355 I know that he's said some pretty shitty things to her. 547 00:24:05,909 --> 00:24:07,800 John: Oh God, you don't even know the half of it. 548 00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:09,149 Angela: No, I know what they were. 549 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,040 They've allowed us to know. 550 00:24:11,669 --> 00:24:15,330 John: So another thing that making a Murder does not even 551 00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:17,850 touch on is the fact that. 552 00:24:18,314 --> 00:24:21,645 He was abusing his kids when they would come and visit him in prison. 553 00:24:22,064 --> 00:24:27,135 And so the judge barred them from going to, from having to go see him 554 00:24:27,405 --> 00:24:32,145 because the kids testified that he'd pinch 'em and do all this mean shit 555 00:24:32,145 --> 00:24:34,125 to him when they went to visit him. 556 00:24:34,334 --> 00:24:36,649 And so the judge said, well, you don't have to go anymore. 557 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:44,220 So the wife took the kids and bailed, and the kids grew up and 558 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:46,020 they had nothing to do with him. 559 00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:51,300 The only kid that had anything to do with him was his daughter, who in 560 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:54,900 episode one you see holding his hand when they leave the jail and shit. 561 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,180 And he is holding her baby or something too. 562 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,860 I don't know whose kid that was, honestly. 563 00:24:58,860 --> 00:24:58,890 Okay. 564 00:24:58,890 --> 00:24:59,280 I don't know. 565 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,600 But then she ends up not having a shitting thing to do with 566 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,800 him by the time it's all over. 567 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,530 She spends a little bit of time with him and then she doesn't have 568 00:25:07,530 --> 00:25:08,760 anything to do with him either. 569 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:09,120 Right. 570 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:10,920 So none of his kids have anything to do with him. 571 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,690 That wife got the hell out of there. 572 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:16,290 As far as you know, how she lived the rest of her life and stuff. 573 00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:17,370 I have no clue. 574 00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:22,320 I just know that she ran far as she freaking could from Steven Avery. 575 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,870 She could and stayed the hell away from the psychopath. 576 00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:30,810 So then as we get to kind of the tail end, is there anything else that we haven't 577 00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:32,730 covered that was covered in episode one? 578 00:25:33,825 --> 00:25:35,715 Angela: I don't, nothing that's screaming to me. 579 00:25:35,715 --> 00:25:37,605 It should scream to you a little better than it. 580 00:25:39,014 --> 00:25:39,225 John: Yeah. 581 00:25:39,225 --> 00:25:44,205 I mean, episode one wasn't just full of a whole bunch of shit because 582 00:25:44,565 --> 00:25:46,750 the primary focus on it just weird. 583 00:25:46,850 --> 00:25:48,675 It left me just confused. 584 00:25:48,855 --> 00:25:49,034 Yeah. 585 00:25:49,034 --> 00:25:51,735 The primary focus on it was the 1985. 586 00:25:51,764 --> 00:25:51,975 Mm-hmm. 587 00:25:52,305 --> 00:25:55,950 Um, conviction and the wrongful conviction and all that. 588 00:25:56,090 --> 00:26:01,245 So, like I said, I haven't spent a lot of time looking into that whole aspect. 589 00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:05,490 I don't know that there's a lot of reason to because he was 590 00:26:05,490 --> 00:26:07,470 exonerated, like there's no doubt. 591 00:26:07,470 --> 00:26:07,560 Right. 592 00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:09,540 The guy did not commit the rape. 593 00:26:09,870 --> 00:26:15,540 And I do you know, I mean the witnesses testified that he was with them. 594 00:26:15,780 --> 00:26:17,100 He was apparently not. 595 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:20,910 Apparently he was helping his, his family pour concrete. 596 00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:21,420 Angela: Mm-hmm. 597 00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:21,780 So 598 00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:23,580 John: he was with the family all day long. 599 00:26:23,580 --> 00:26:28,860 And then a little while after that, his wife and him like, took off and went 600 00:26:28,860 --> 00:26:34,140 to like Madison, I think, and did some shopping, got some gas, shit like that. 601 00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:37,320 And then he came home and then he spent the rest of the night with his 602 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,040 brother hanging drywall and in a house. 603 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,020 And so it wasn't like the jury didn't hear from the witnesses, they 604 00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:49,050 just, it just didn't impact them. 605 00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:50,070 They found him guilty. 606 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:50,400 Angela: Yeah. 607 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,415 John: That's more on the jurors than it is on the. 608

00:26:54,555 --> 00:26:59,205 The prosecutors, in my opinion, the jurors found the witness 609 00:26:59,205 --> 00:27:03,495 testimony more compelling than Avery's friends and family. 610 00:27:03,825 --> 00:27:05,895 And is that right? 611 00:27:05,895 --> 00:27:08,055 No, the guy was wrongfully convicted. 612 00:27:08,055 --> 00:27:08,145 Right? 613 00:27:08,145 --> 00:27:09,435 He was exonerated. 614 00:27:09,435 --> 00:27:12,105 He should have never gone to prison for that. 615 00:27:12,465 --> 00:27:18,345 And if, if the story ended there, then I would be all on Stephen Avery's 616 00:27:18,465 --> 00:27:21,495 side as far as that aspect goes. 617 00:27:21,495 --> 00:27:21,524 Okay. 618 00:27:21,795 --> 00:27:25,095 The guy's, he's still a piece of shit, and I don't think he could have lived 619 00:27:25,635 --> 00:27:30,225 in society without ending up back in prison because he's one of those people. 620 00:27:31,395 --> 00:27:37,575 So then it, then it kind of starts to foreshadow the conspiracy a little bit. 621 00:27:37,575 --> 00:27:39,885 Talk a little bit about the Hallock case. 622 00:27:39,945 --> 00:27:40,275 Yeah. 623 00:27:40,425 --> 00:27:48,555 Um, it ends with, um, connecting his civil suit that he's gonna 624 00:27:48,555 --> 00:27:49,885 be suing for to the mm-hmm. 625 00:27:49,970 --> 00:27:51,350 85 case. 626 00:27:51,975 --> 00:27:55,635 And this new apparent murder charge, which involves a young 627 00:27:55,635 --> 00:27:58,155 lady by the name of Theresa Halach. 628 00:27:58,515 --> 00:28:05,715 And it is basically, it kind of invites the audience to, to see the, the future 629 00:28:05,715 --> 00:28:13,545 homicide investigation as a retaliation or damage control by this corrupt system 630 00:28:13,545 --> 00:28:14,030 so they don't have to pay the money. 631 00:28:14,030 --> 00:28:14,310 Yeah. 632 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:14,830 Right. 633 00:28:15,410 --> 00:28:21,465 And so, you know, I mean, I think that as we kinda get in this and kinda discuss all 634 00:28:21,465 --> 00:28:28,905 of it, um, I do think that you're gonna start to see that it's very dishonest. 635 00:28:28,935 --> 00:28:29,325 What. 636 00:28:29,879 --> 00:28:32,280 What making a murderer does. 637 00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:32,790 Okay. 638 00:28:32,820 --> 00:28:35,400 Um, and so then we, then we go in. 639 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,490 I don't think there's a whole lot more to say about episode one. 640 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,520 That's kind of the, where it ends, you know, there's not a lot of 641 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,540 countering, like I said, be just because it's mostly about shit that's 642 00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:47,100 already been proven to be false. 643 00:28:47,129 --> 00:28:47,340 Right. 644 00:28:47,670 --> 00:28:53,790 So then we start in episode two, and that's kind of his, his life 645 00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:58,620 after he was exonerated and gets into his civil rights lawsuit. 646 00:28:58,620 --> 00:29:05,760 And this, this $36 million lawsuit where he's going to sue for, like I said, a 647 00:29:05,790 --> 00:29:11,520 million dollars a year for all 18 years, and then punitive damages at 18 million. 648 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,340 So he's guaranteed $36 million. 649 00:29:14,340 --> 00:29:14,550 Yeah. 650 00:29:14,910 --> 00:29:19,020 And I mean, first of all, that that just didn't how shit works. 651 00:29:19,710 --> 00:29:24,120 I mean, you can sue for $7 billion if you want, but that does not mean Yeah. 652 00:29:24,150 --> 00:29:25,980 That you're gonna get $7 billion. 653 00:29:26,370 --> 00:29:26,910 So. 654 00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:32,850 Episode two really kind of, uh, dives into, gives release a little bit 655 00:29:32,850 --> 00:29:37,200 more, but more importantly, it dives into like the public apologies, the 656 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,150 Senate getting involved and yeah. 657 00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:45,900 You know, drafting like the Avery bill and, you know, dives big time into the 658 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:48,420 civil suit against Manitowoc County. 659 00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:51,690 Angela: What is that Wrongful act something? 660 00:29:51,690 --> 00:29:52,800 Those people that want 661 00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:54,270 John: what they were drafting. 662 00:29:54,270 --> 00:29:54,330 The 663 00:29:54,330 --> 00:29:55,080 Angela: wrongfully accused? 664 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:56,400 No, that group of people. 665 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,510 The wrongfully accused 666 00:29:57,540 --> 00:29:58,560 John: Oh, the Innocence Project. 667 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,250 Angela: Thank you. 668 00:29:59,255 --> 00:30:00,030 John: Yeah, yeah. 669 00:30:00,030 --> 00:30:04,500 Innocence Project, which is a great organization, it really freaking 670 00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:08,850 is, and they've gotten multiple people off a death row that were. 671 00:30:09,465 --> 00:30:10,245 Not guilty. 672 00:30:10,545 --> 00:30:10,785 Right. 673 00:30:10,845 --> 00:30:14,025 And so, but yeah, I mean, Avery was kind of made the poster 674 00:30:14,025 --> 00:30:15,975 child for the Innocence Project. 675 00:30:15,975 --> 00:30:19,695 He was put on their website, he was invited to all these functions. 676 00:30:20,115 --> 00:30:22,665 He really became a local celebrity 677 00:30:22,755 --> 00:30:23,655 Angela: who the hood ornament though. 678 00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:25,755 And a lot of the things, he was just sitting in the background. 679 00:30:25,755 --> 00:30:26,685 They just wanted him there. 680 00:30:26,745 --> 00:30:27,615 John: Oh yeah, exactly. 681 00:30:27,615 --> 00:30:29,145 I mean, that's, that's how it always is. 682 00:30:29,745 --> 00:30:36,045 But, you know, he, um, he, he really did become like this local celebrity person. 683 00:30:36,165 --> 00:30:40,245 And then that's gonna play into some other parts as we kind of go 684 00:30:40,245 --> 00:30:41,895 through the series a little bit, but. 685 00:30:42,915 --> 00:30:47,715 I do wanna say that, first of all,

just to reiterate, like I said, you 686 00:30:47,715 --> 00:30:49,365 can sue for anything you want to. 687 00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:49,695 Yeah. 688 00:30:49,785 --> 00:30:55,725 But at that time, and even now, exonerees are not getting that kind of money. 689 00:30:55,815 --> 00:31:00,075 Like there's been multiple exonerees all over the country that have been 690 00:31:00,285 --> 00:31:02,625 found not guilty, released from prison. 691 00:31:02,835 --> 00:31:05,085 And they're not getting, they just don't get anything. 692 00:31:05,355 --> 00:31:11,325 They don't get anything or what, you know, I think a, a pretty standard that I have 693 00:31:11,325 --> 00:31:14,925 seen is roughly a hundred thousand a year. 694 00:31:15,255 --> 00:31:15,435 Yeah. 695 00:31:15,435 --> 00:31:20,055 Essentially replacing, uh, a good income Yeah. 696 00:31:20,055 --> 00:31:24,495 That they could have made during that period of time, but not making 'em rich. 697 00:31:24,705 --> 00:31:26,460 So they're saying, you know. 698 00:31:27,205 --> 00:31:28,554 50,000 a year. 699 00:31:28,615 --> 00:31:29,995 A hundred thousand a year. 700 00:31:30,294 --> 00:31:31,360 That's typically sometimes 701 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,715 Angela: the attack on a little bit more for pain and suffering. 702 00:31:34,225 --> 00:31:34,585 John: Yeah. 703 00:31:34,645 --> 00:31:39,699 But you're still not getting a million dollars plus another $18 704 00:31:39,699 --> 00:31:45,445 million in punitive damages and making a murder frames this as 705 00:31:45,445 --> 00:31:48,835 though it's a foregone conclusion and he's only weeks away from it. 706 00:31:49,014 --> 00:31:52,254 Like if he can just keep his nose clean for a week, he's 707 00:31:52,254 --> 00:31:54,445 gonna get a $36 million check. 708 00:31:54,475 --> 00:32:00,985 Well, anybody that knows anything about lawsuits, knows it, 709 00:32:00,985 --> 00:32:02,455 don't work that freaking quick. 710 00:32:03,145 --> 00:32:08,725 He had just filed suit, it was years before he was gonna collect that money. 711 00:32:09,504 --> 00:32:10,764 It was not weeks. 712 00:32:10,825 --> 00:32:15,175 If he was gonna collect it, if he won, it would've been years. 713 00:32:15,205 --> 00:32:21,445 And he was gonna have to prove, prove in a court of law that the Sheriff's 714 00:32:21,445 --> 00:32:24,804 Department conspired against him. 715 00:32:25,230 --> 00:32:26,640 To wrongfully convict him. 716 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,130 They knew he was innocent and they convict. 717 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,160 That's an extraordinarily difficult Oh yeah. 718 00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:33,060 Case to prove. 719 00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:37,320 And I don't think there's any way in hell that he would've been able to, 720 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,950 but even if he was, it was years away. 721 00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:45,000 He was not a week away from getting $36 million. 722 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,300 I just think it's important that we talk about that.

723 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:54,750 But again, with episode two, there's not a shit ton of stuff that comes in. 724 00:32:54,810 --> 00:33:01,200 I think one really important thing that, um, that comes in on episode two is Andy 725 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:08,280 Coburns receives this call from somebody that says, you, we have a prisoner in 726 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,010 our facility that committed a crime. 727 00:33:11,595 --> 00:33:15,045 That somebody in your facility is in jail for. 728 00:33:15,435 --> 00:33:15,825 Angela: Hmm. 729 00:33:15,915 --> 00:33:21,015 John: And Andy Colburn didn't do anything, and then he, he made a 730 00:33:21,015 --> 00:33:24,135 statement, was yours and years later, my 731 00:33:24,135 --> 00:33:24,825 Angela: files. 732 00:33:24,825 --> 00:33:25,965 Is that what you're getting at? 733 00:33:26,325 --> 00:33:27,435 John: No, that was the prosecutor. 734 00:33:27,435 --> 00:33:27,945 Okay. 735 00:33:28,245 --> 00:33:32,445 No, Andy Colburn is, is the deputy and Oh, okay. 736 00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:38,625 He receives this phone call saying from another facility saying that they 737 00:33:38,625 --> 00:33:42,825 have somebody in their jail basically confessing to a crime that somebody 738 00:33:43,035 --> 00:33:45,225 in Manitoc County is in jail for. 739 00:33:45,225 --> 00:33:45,345 Okay. 740 00:33:45,825 --> 00:33:51,375 And, and they really frame Andy Colburn as a villain here. 741 00:33:51,615 --> 00:33:58,140 And then he's also gonna be then one of the key players in framing Stephen 742 00:33:58,140 --> 00:34:04,395 Avery for this murder because he is quote unquote named in the lawsuit. 743 00:34:04,605 --> 00:34:05,205 Angela: Hmm. 744 00:34:05,565 --> 00:34:05,835 Okay. 745 00:34:06,285 --> 00:34:06,945 John: So. 746 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,370 They really paint him as like this worthless pile of shit. 747 00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:16,860 Well, I think it's really important to note that Andy Colburn, first of all, 748 00:34:17,130 --> 00:34:25,020 do you know where Andy Colburn was in 1985 during the whole, during the whole 749 00:34:25,050 --> 00:34:28,080 wrongful conviction of Stephen Avery? 750 00:34:28,350 --> 00:34:34,530 All of the shit that he's going to conspire against Stephen Avery for, 751 00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:36,210 do you know where he was at that time? 752 00:34:36,990 --> 00:34:39,750 Angela: I wanna give you a really sarcastic answer, but 753 00:34:39,870 --> 00:34:41,580 I shouldn't No, go for it. 754 00:34:41,580 --> 00:34:44,909 I was gonna say in the words of Cliff Clavin, he was not in my kitchen. 755 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:45,870 Yeah, 756 00:34:46,245 --> 00:34:46,405 John: yeah. 757 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:51,000 The guy was in the, I'm pretty sure he was Navy and he wasn't 758 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,280 even in this country at the time. 759 00:34:53,820 --> 00:34:57,300 He's sure as the shit wasn't a deputy for Manis County. 760 00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:59,280 He wasn't even here.

761 00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:04,020 But yet he's conspires and he's gonna conspire to commit murder and 762 00:35:04,020 --> 00:35:06,120 frame it on somebody else, John. 763 00:35:06,629 --> 00:35:12,000 So that's really super interesting, I thought, because Making a Murderer 764 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,250 goes out of their way to cast Andy Colburn as the big villain. 765 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:17,790 Right? 766 00:35:17,940 --> 00:35:23,640 And as you watch the rest of the series, you're gonna really see how much they 767 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,730 do that shit, and it's absolutely wrong. 768 00:35:26,730 --> 00:35:32,490 But it's important to note that in 1993 when this call, or the early 769 00:35:32,490 --> 00:35:36,899 nineties, I'm pretty sure it was 1993 when this call supposedly came through. 770 00:35:37,859 --> 00:35:42,240 Andy Coburn wasn't a sworn deputy in Wisconsin. 771 00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:48,629 Jailers aren't sworn deputies, so he was just working in the jail. 772 00:35:49,860 --> 00:35:53,730 Part of working in the jail, and it's the same thing in every jail. 773 00:35:53,730 --> 00:35:57,090 It's the same thing in the jail here as anywhere else. 774 00:35:57,510 --> 00:36:00,540 A lot of the times calls go to them. 775 00:36:00,540 --> 00:36:06,210 He was in the control room at the jail and he received this phone call and this, 776 00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:12,330 this guy told him this, and so Andy Coburn said, you probably want to talk to a 777 00:36:12,330 --> 00:36:18,030 detective about this and forwarded the call to the deputy or to the detective. 778 00:36:19,290 --> 00:36:21,750 Then they crucify him because he never wrote a report. 779 00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:26,190 Son of a bitch, if you wrote a report on every freaking call that you get, right. 780 00:36:26,190 --> 00:36:29,790 When you're working in a place that gets, I mean, Andy Coburn would go on to say 781 00:36:29,790 --> 00:36:34,980 that during a four hour period, he would probably transfer like 20 to 30 calls. 782 00:36:35,340 --> 00:36:35,550 Mm-hmm. 783 00:36:35,850 --> 00:36:37,950 Is he gonna write a report on every one of those? 784 00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:39,330 Apparently he should have been. 785 00:36:39,630 --> 00:36:43,830 He passed it on to the detective, which is exactly what he should have done. 786 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,680 If the ball was dropped, it was dropped by the detective. 787 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,480 It was not dropped by Andy Colburn. 788 00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:49,470 And so, and 789 00:36:49,590 --> 00:36:53,610 Angela: you don't stand up for police people if they don't deserve it. 790 00:36:53,730 --> 00:36:54,360 So, 791 00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:55,170 John: no, I don't. 792 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,080 I'm happy to crucify though. 793 00:37:00,090 --> 00:37:09,510 So, and then the RAV4 is found on Avery salvage yard property by a volunteer 794 00:37:09,540 --> 00:37:15,390 Pam of God who she become no one of because, and they made it look so fast. 795 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:16,110 Yeah. 796 00:37:16,380 --> 00:37:18,570 Like she just walked in and walked straight up to this car. 797 00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:20,700 That is not how it happened at all. 798 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:21,450 By the way. 799 00:37:21,810 --> 00:37:23,460 Her and her daughter searched. 800 00:37:23,940 --> 00:37:27,330 They searched a line of cars that made perfect sense as they 801 00:37:27,330 --> 00:37:28,860 worked their way across the yard. 802 00:37:29,190 --> 00:37:33,180 And then it was very logical for them to move from that line 803 00:37:33,180 --> 00:37:36,750 of cars to these cars that were parked up on the hill right there. 804 00:37:37,050 --> 00:37:42,510 And so when you really look at how the search transpired, it's not that weird. 805 00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:43,140 Yeah. 806 00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:47,880 But she gets drug through the mud because she was a private investigator. 807 00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:54,779 Obviously police love private investigators, except ironically, when 808 00:37:54,779 --> 00:37:58,440 you're acting as a private investigator, then they look down their noses at you and 809 00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,670 they don't want anything to do with you. 810 00:37:59,670 --> 00:38:05,640 But yeah, if, if they're framing somebody for murder, then you're their best 811 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,049 friend and they will immediately go to a private investigator to help you. 812 00:38:10,319 --> 00:38:10,740 Yes. 813 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,650 And the, the one problem that I have with this whole thing is especially the 814 00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:20,910 whole Pam of God thing, and I don't think they refer to her as that and make you 815 00:38:20,910 --> 00:38:23,190 murderer, but No, I don't remember that. 816 00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:29,790 That's what, um, many of the advocates for Stephen Avery have started to call her as 817 00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:35,430 Pam of God, because on the stand she says that she believes God led her to the RAV4. 818 00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:37,589 So now she's known as Pam of God. 819 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:44,130 And the whole thing that you have to reconcile is Pam of 820 00:38:44,130 --> 00:38:47,475 God is, I think Theresa's aunt. 821 00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:54,000 And so you have to believe that Theresa's aunt either was involved 822 00:38:54,000 --> 00:39:01,260 in her murder or was told of her murder and convinced to cover it up 823 00:39:01,260 --> 00:39:03,810 and frame an innocent man for it. 824 00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:06,630 So how do you reconcile that one? 825 00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:07,320 Angela: Yeah, 826 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,130 John: it's not like Pam is listed in the lawsuit. 827 00:39:11,490 --> 00:39:17,430 It's not like Ham has anything to gain from framing Steven Avery. 828 00:39:17,790 --> 00:39:17,880 Right. 829 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:24,210 So why exactly would Pam get on board with frady him and 830

00:39:24,240 --> 00:39:25,710 helping the sheriff's office? 831 00:39:26,070 --> 00:39:27,960 No, it makes no logical freaking sense. 832 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:28,470 None. 833 00:39:29,370 --> 00:39:32,610 And then I think it's also, um. 834 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:39,060 And I think they start to lead in, in episode two where they, they start 835 00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:43,590 to talk about human remains being found on the Avery property and, 836 00:39:43,830 --> 00:39:49,320 and then they really kind of start crafting this narrative that the cops 837 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,830 planted this whole, this whole thing. 838 00:39:52,835 --> 00:39:52,904 Because 839 00:39:53,045 --> 00:39:55,830 Angela: he couldn't have gotten a bonfire hot enough. 840 00:39:56,759 --> 00:39:57,120 John: Right. 841 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:57,330 Yeah. 842 00:39:57,330 --> 00:39:59,759 He could have never gotten a bonfire hot enough. 843 00:39:59,759 --> 00:40:04,350 And then, you know, I mean, depending on which story you want to believe 844 00:40:04,350 --> 00:40:08,670 that Avery told, he either did or didn't have a fire that night 845 00:40:08,670 --> 00:40:14,400 because he told multiple stories and they changed as evidence was found. 846 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:15,595 It's very interesting how that works. 847 00:40:15,695 --> 00:40:16,115 Mm-hmm. 848 00:40:16,575 --> 00:40:20,759 How, you know, as soon as they discover evidence that he had a fire, 849 00:40:20,759 --> 00:40:22,259 then all of a sudden he had a fire. 850 00:40:22,259 --> 00:40:23,435 Angela: Did have a fire, 851 00:40:23,759 --> 00:40:28,500 John: it was actually in a jail call that he was talking to his sister and. 852 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,500 He said, I didn't have a fire that night. 853 00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:33,810 I don't know if they'd played it in episode one or two, 854 00:40:33,810 --> 00:40:34,950 but it's in the series. 855 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,740 And he says, I didn't have a fire that night. 856 00:40:37,740 --> 00:40:40,140 And she's like, yeah, you did. 857 00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:42,570 Maybe it isn't in making a murderer. 858 00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:44,850 But anyway, it happened. 859 00:40:45,330 --> 00:40:49,259 And she, he says, I never had a fire on that night. 860 00:40:49,259 --> 00:40:52,350 And she was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure you did. 861 00:40:52,350 --> 00:40:54,630 Because when I came home, there was a big fire. 862 00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:57,660 And then he immediately says, then Brendan was with me. 863 00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:59,070 Angela: Yeah. 864 00:40:59,610 --> 00:41:05,520 John: And so it's, it's just interesting how he, he's very good at this bullshit. 865 00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:07,230 Angela: Okay. 866 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:12,870 John: So then there's also this emerging narrative of this law enforcement 867 00:41:13,410 --> 00:41:18,810 conflict of interest in the fact that Manitowoc County officers, particularly 868 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,630 Lincoln Colburn, were present. 869 00:41:22,410 --> 00:41:29,250 Key search moments despite supposedly recusing themselves from 870 00:41:29,250 --> 00:41:32,310 the case and saying they're not gonna have anything to do with it. 871 00:41:32,730 --> 00:41:34,860 So let me just ask you a question. 872 00:41:35,250 --> 00:41:40,440 Shoot you, um, you are an investigator and you decide that 873 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:41,455 you're gonna murder somebody. 874 00:41:42,915 --> 00:41:47,325 Do you murder them and then say, I can't investigate this. 875 00:41:47,325 --> 00:41:50,025 I need to bring in a third party to investigate it? 876 00:41:50,385 --> 00:41:52,425 Or do you investigate it yourself? 877 00:41:52,695 --> 00:41:53,985 Angela: I investigate it myself. 878 00:41:53,985 --> 00:41:54,045 Yeah. 879 00:41:54,195 --> 00:41:54,975 John: Damn, straight. 880 00:41:54,975 --> 00:41:59,355 You investigate it yourself Because if they're gonna wanna plant evidence, 881 00:41:59,445 --> 00:42:01,065 why in the hell the narrative? 882 00:42:01,065 --> 00:42:01,365 Yeah. 883 00:42:01,395 --> 00:42:05,295 Why the hell would they bring in Calumet County and say, you 884 00:42:05,295 --> 00:42:06,675 guys take the lead on this? 885 00:42:06,675 --> 00:42:10,395 Yeah, because to babysit is, I believe the words they used, and 886 00:42:10,395 --> 00:42:12,015 that's pretty much what it was. 887 00:42:12,015 --> 00:42:16,215 They didn't, so Calumet definitely led the investigation, but 888 00:42:16,215 --> 00:42:18,915 in no time did Manitowoc. 889 00:42:19,290 --> 00:42:21,690 Say, we're gonna have nothing to do with this. 890 00:42:21,990 --> 00:42:23,610 It's their county. 891 00:42:23,700 --> 00:42:23,790 Mm-hmm. 892 00:42:24,029 --> 00:42:25,799 Of course they're gonna be involved. 893 00:42:26,100 --> 00:42:30,930 And everybody on the, on the free Stephen Avery side of things, 894 00:42:31,140 --> 00:42:36,000 everybody treats Manitowoc and Calumet County as though they're inner 895 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,045 city New York police departments. 896 00:42:38,045 --> 00:42:38,245 Yeah. 897 00:42:38,279 --> 00:42:40,319 And, and they're not. 898 00:42:40,620 --> 00:42:41,490 They're tiny. 899 00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:43,830 It's kinda like Wyoming. 900 00:42:44,130 --> 00:42:50,970 You don't have the resources to take over a huge investigation like this while 901 00:42:51,029 --> 00:42:53,069 still taking care of your own county. 902 00:42:53,075 --> 00:42:53,165 Right. 903 00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:58,500 They don't have tons and tons of, of officers that they can commit to this. 904 00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:02,340 They don't have a shit ton of forensic analysis. 905 00:43:02,340 --> 00:43:07,080 They don't have a bunch of crime scene technicians that they can throw at this. 906 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,450 They have to be able to use not only Manitowoc County, they also brought in. 907 00:43:13,799 --> 00:43:18,029 Tons of officers from the

Wisconsin State Police who apparently 908 00:43:18,029 --> 00:43:19,589 are also in on the conspiracy. 909 00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:20,400 Yeah, everybody is. 910 00:43:20,970 --> 00:43:26,880 Then they bring in the Wisconsin DCI and they're all in on the 911 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,740 conspiracy as well, apparently. 912 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,029 So there was 913 00:43:30,029 --> 00:43:31,140 Angela: a giant memo sent 914 00:43:31,140 --> 00:43:34,500 John: out to be Oh, there had to have been because you have the DNA 915 00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:36,150 technician that's involved in it. 916 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:40,920 I mean, you know, if you listen to the lawyers, which I think it's bunting 917 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:47,190 that says you don't need a whole police force, is all you need is one 918 00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:49,860 officer, maybe two, and you can do this. 919 00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:52,589 I mean, it's one of the dumbest freaking things. 920 00:43:52,589 --> 00:43:54,330 But he's a defense attorney, so. 921 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:55,799 Whatever. 922 00:43:55,950 --> 00:44:02,009 I'm surprised honestly that defense attorneys decided to go on this 923 00:44:02,009 --> 00:44:04,410 rabbit hole trail with Stephen Avery. 924 00:44:04,589 --> 00:44:09,209 I think the only reason they did is they were kinda locked into it by 925 00:44:09,209 --> 00:44:13,439 Stephen Avery because he'd already been talking to the press and saying that 926 00:44:13,439 --> 00:44:16,140 he was being framed, and so Which one? 927 00:44:16,140 --> 00:44:19,709 Your legs or keep fighting or, yeah, you just keep going and I 928 00:44:19,709 --> 00:44:21,480 think that's probably what happened. 929 00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:25,680 I don't have a shit ton of respect for these two freaking assholes. 930 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,040 Not because they defended Stephen Avery. 931 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:31,109 I firmly believe I've said it before. 932 00:44:31,109 --> 00:44:32,910 I'll say it a million more times. 933 00:44:33,089 --> 00:44:37,109 I believe that everybody deserves a quality defense. 934 00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:42,629 And I have no problem with de with defense attorneys if they're honest. 935 00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:44,609 I have no problem with defense attorneys. 936 00:44:44,819 --> 00:44:49,470 The problem I have with these two clowns is the tour they went on 937 00:44:49,470 --> 00:44:53,970 after making a murderer, which you might not know about, but I do not. 938 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:59,279 His two defense attorneys, literally, strand and Bunty and Bunning, 939 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,700 toured the country on this making a Murderer speaking tour, where they 940 00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:10,980 went all over talking about this case becoming giant freaking social 941 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:13,080 media stars and doing all this shit. 942 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,180 I mean, it's total bullshit. 943 00:45:15,629 --> 00:45:19,980 And they took this case and they, and they have done all of this stuff to get their 944 00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:22,020 name out there, and that's pretty much it. 945 00:45:22,290 --> 00:45:23,819 So I have no respect for him. 946 00:45:23,819 --> 00:45:24,660 It's not like. 947 00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:29,520 It's not like they took the case because it was the right thing to do. 948 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,150 It wasn't like they took the case because here's this innocent 949 00:45:33,150 --> 00:45:34,950 man that's being railroaded. 950 00:45:35,009 --> 00:45:35,069 No. 951 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,970 He had to settle the $36 million lawsuit for 450,000, which is probably 952 00:45:41,970 --> 00:45:43,530 about all he was gonna get anyway. 953 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:43,890 Yeah. 954 00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:45,840 So that he could pay them. 955 00:45:46,050 --> 00:45:46,290 Mm-hmm. 956 00:45:46,290 --> 00:45:47,160 To defend him. 957 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:50,970 So they're not working pro bono, they're not working outta 958 00:45:50,970 --> 00:45:52,260 the goodness of their heart. 959 00:45:52,530 --> 00:45:52,590 Yeah. 960 00:45:52,590 --> 00:45:52,650 No. 961 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:53,910 They're working for the money. 962 00:45:53,910 --> 00:45:55,650 Just like, and, and that's fine. 963 00:45:55,710 --> 00:45:57,120 That's absolutely fine. 964 00:45:57,150 --> 00:45:59,850 I mean, it's bread and butter, but you have, you know, I mean, they 965 00:45:59,850 --> 00:46:02,460 deserve to be paid for their work and I have no problem with that. 966 00:46:02,670 --> 00:46:07,140 I have a big problem with the whole speaking tour that they did after the 967 00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:12,780 fact to capitalize on the fact that making a Murderer was a huge success 968 00:46:12,780 --> 00:46:14,250 and they wanted some of that bread. 969 00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:15,750 I have a big problem with that. 970 00:46:15,755 --> 00:46:15,935 Mm-hmm. 971 00:46:16,410 --> 00:46:20,220 And then that's kind of where episode two. 972 00:46:21,415 --> 00:46:26,005 That's kind of where it leaves off is just setting the scene that Lincoln Colburn 973 00:46:26,005 --> 00:46:31,075 are these dirty cops that are framing this poor, innocent man who's picked on by 974 00:46:31,075 --> 00:46:34,194 everybody, and that's kinda where it ends. 975 00:46:34,194 --> 00:46:36,745 So do you want to, he wants to get out and get married. 976 00:46:37,255 --> 00:46:37,435 Yeah. 977 00:46:37,435 --> 00:46:38,485 That's all he wants to do. 978 00:46:38,605 --> 00:46:41,154 Get out and get married for the 75th on this. 979 00:46:41,485 --> 00:46:47,545 How this guy ends up with the women that he ends up with is beyond me because he 980 00:46:47,545 --> 00:46:53,455 has had like the one girlfriend that he has, that he had after he was in prison. 981 00:46:53,485 --> 00:46:53,575 Mm-hmm. 982 00:46:53,845 --> 00:46:56,005 She's pretty attractive woman. 983 00:46:56,275 --> 00:46:59,845 She was married to a cop and

then got divorced from the cop and then 984 00:46:59,845 --> 00:47:03,835 was gonna marry Steven Avery and then that whole relationship felt 985 00:47:03,835 --> 00:47:08,485 the DUI one or she was in jail for the DUI while, no, no, no, no, no. 986 00:47:08,694 --> 00:47:12,295 That was his, that was his girlfriend during making a murder. 987 00:47:12,415 --> 00:47:12,805 Okay. 988 00:47:12,895 --> 00:47:15,444 After making a murder, he's sentenced to prison. 989 00:47:15,745 --> 00:47:17,755 And then this woman. 990 00:47:18,345 --> 00:47:19,185 Falls in love with him. 991 00:47:19,185 --> 00:47:22,395 And he's had, he's had more girlfriends than you can count 992 00:47:22,395 --> 00:47:23,505 since he's been in prison. 993 00:47:23,655 --> 00:47:24,345 Goodness sake. 994 00:47:24,405 --> 00:47:31,185 All these who John Douglas would call Nutcases have gone after him because 995 00:47:31,185 --> 00:47:33,225 he is so freaking famous and popular. 996 00:47:33,225 --> 00:47:36,465 And even this chick who, like I said, she's an attractive woman, 997 00:47:36,915 --> 00:47:41,925 but she even said if they make a season two, I'm gonna be in it. 998 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:43,180 Angela: Oh 999 00:47:44,325 --> 00:47:44,715 John: yeah. 1000 00:47:44,775 --> 00:47:50,025 And then he goes nuts on her, threatens to murder her, all this shit. 1001 00:47:50,025 --> 00:47:52,125 And so she ends up getting rid of him too. 1002 00:47:52,485 --> 00:47:55,275 This is pretty much how every one of his relationships be in it. 1003 00:47:55,335 --> 00:47:56,805 Angela: 'cause then she'll wanna tell her story. 1004 00:47:56,805 --> 00:47:58,665 John: Well, she is in it, she's in season two. 1005 00:47:58,995 --> 00:48:05,475 But they, they use, they, they frame her as a lunatic for sure. 1006 00:48:05,505 --> 00:48:10,035 And I'm not saying she's not, because I think you gotta be kind 1007 00:48:10,035 --> 00:48:15,675 of a lunatic to marry or want to marry a convicted murderer. 1008 00:48:16,335 --> 00:48:16,425 End. 1009 00:48:17,565 --> 00:48:19,125 With some rare exceptions. 1010 00:48:19,125 --> 00:48:22,170 Like Lori went in the West Memphis three case. 1011 00:48:22,430 --> 00:48:22,850 Mm-hmm. 1012 00:48:23,009 --> 00:48:24,315 I think that was legit. 1013 00:48:24,315 --> 00:48:27,585 But uh, it's rare. 1014 00:48:27,734 --> 00:48:28,904 It's super rare. 1015 00:48:28,995 --> 00:48:33,404 Most of 'em are complete nut cases that I don't know what the hell they're thinking. 1016 00:48:33,404 --> 00:48:34,665 I'm, I've never understood it. 1017 00:48:34,665 --> 00:48:36,075 I never will understand it. 1018 00:48:36,255 --> 00:48:37,845 I don't pretend to understand it. 1019 00:48:37,904 --> 00:48:38,174 Angela: Right. 1020 00:48:38,234 --> 00:48:39,225 John: It's weird as shit. 1021 00:48:39,944 --> 00:48:43,694 So do we want to push through episode three or do we want to 1022 00:48:43,694 --> 00:48:48,285 end this episode here and we can discuss three, four in

the next one? 1023 00:48:48,285 --> 00:48:48,404 I can 1024 00:48:49,065 --> 00:48:49,515 Angela: keep going. 1025 00:48:50,984 --> 00:48:51,315 John: Okay. 1026 00:48:51,375 --> 00:48:52,755 We'll do one more episode. 1027 00:48:52,755 --> 00:49:01,725 So episode three kinda centers on Avery's pretrial and the media framing and. 1028 00:49:02,685 --> 00:49:09,225 You know, the, the, his defense team being put together and it, it begins 1029 00:49:09,225 --> 00:49:14,295 to introduce Brendan D's involvement and it casts both the, both of 1030 00:49:14,295 --> 00:49:21,405 the accused, Brendan and Steven as under-resourced and against a very 1031 00:49:21,405 --> 00:49:24,134 powerful and and biased system. 1032 00:49:24,345 --> 00:49:24,795 Angela: Yeah. 1033 00:49:25,695 --> 00:49:29,835 John: So, you know, they definitely dive into the trial by the press 1034 00:49:29,835 --> 00:49:34,545 thing and you know, that really emphasizes the press conference 1035 00:49:34,545 --> 00:49:38,985 by Sheriff Payal and DA Cares 15. 1036 00:49:38,985 --> 00:49:39,915 Stop watching. 1037 00:49:39,915 --> 00:49:44,295 Now this might be one of the only places I agree with making a murder. 1038 00:49:44,325 --> 00:49:47,805 No, that was one of the dumbest, and I think Ken Kratz is a, Ken 1039 00:49:47,805 --> 00:49:49,634 Kratz is a total piece of shit. 1040 00:49:49,905 --> 00:49:54,825 I don't like the guy, I don't know, I don't know that they cover it. 1041 00:49:55,410 --> 00:49:56,520 In making a murder. 1042 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:02,970 But he ended up, after this case, he ended up like, uh, the, a sexual 1043 00:50:02,970 --> 00:50:07,530 assault victim was working with him and he ends up sending her like a bunch 1044 00:50:07,530 --> 00:50:09,390 of dirty texts and shit like that. 1045 00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:10,680 It all comes out. 1046 00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,570 I think he's fired, his career is destroyed and he comes out 1047 00:50:15,570 --> 00:50:17,070 and says, I'm a sex addict. 1048 00:50:17,070 --> 00:50:19,410 And, you know, the whole bullshit. 1049 00:50:19,410 --> 00:50:20,580 I don't like the guy. 1050 00:50:20,790 --> 00:50:22,680 I think he's a total piece of shit. 1051 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:29,850 And this decision to have a press conference and go over all of the 1052 00:50:29,850 --> 00:50:35,670 horrendous details of this crime, whether it, whether it was true or not 1053 00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:39,540 true is absolutely freaking disgusting. 1054 00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:42,360 And I cannot support it. 1055 00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,070 I don't agree with it. 1056 00:50:44,250 --> 00:50:46,140 I think it was absolutely wrong. 1057 00:50:46,290 --> 00:50:51,150 I think that it's a travesty that a prosecutor would do some shit like that. 1058 00:50:51,180 --> 00:50:51,480 Yep. 1059 00:50:51,509 --> 00:50:53,970 So you're not gonna hear me. 1060 00:50:54,765 --> 00:51:00,855 You know, backing up Ken Kratz for that dumbass move because it was very stupid 1061 00:51:01,215 --> 00:51:04,245 and it was prejudicial, in my opinion. 1062 00:51:04,245 --> 00:51:05,985 It was very prejudicial. 1063 00:51:06,195 --> 00:51:12,015 It made it very difficult to then get an unbiased jury in this case. 1064 00:51:12,015 --> 00:51:17,655 Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt about that, and obviously all of 1065 00:51:17,655 --> 00:51:19,605 that information is gonna come out. 1066 00:51:19,605 --> 00:51:24,705 He didn't disclose anything that was secret because it's gonna be in the 1067 00:51:24,705 --> 00:51:29,475 charging documents, which are public record, so any good reporter is gonna 1068 00:51:29,475 --> 00:51:31,575 go be able to go dig those up and shit. 1069 00:51:32,385 --> 00:51:37,995 A lot of the time a reporter, an editorial staff, or a newspaper or a news 1070 00:51:37,995 --> 00:51:44,475 agency will make a decision to temper some of those facts and present them. 1071 00:51:45,390 --> 00:51:48,240 And not such a freaking gory fashion. 1072 00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:48,840 Angela: Yeah. 1073 00:51:49,170 --> 00:51:50,250 John: But that's up to them. 1074 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,610 Angela: What 15 year, 14 year old's gonna be like, oh, I'm not 1075 00:51:53,610 --> 00:51:55,740 15 yet, I'm gonna stop watching. 1076 00:51:55,770 --> 00:51:56,580 Oh, exactly. 1077 00:51:57,060 --> 00:51:59,820 John: Is all that's gonna do, is it make, watch it more? 1078 00:51:59,820 --> 00:52:03,630 It's going to, and pretty much ensure that they watch it. 1079 00:52:04,110 --> 00:52:08,760 But like I was saying, any news agency, that's their right. 1080 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,440 They can do whatever the hell they want to. 1081 00:52:10,445 --> 00:52:10,665 Yeah. 1082 00:52:10,890 --> 00:52:14,550 And if they want to come out and print all the gory details on the front page 1083 00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:19,020 of their paper or lead the nightly news with all the go, that's up to them. 1084 00:52:19,020 --> 00:52:20,310 That's their decision. 1085 00:52:20,670 --> 00:52:21,600 They can make that. 1086 00:52:21,870 --> 00:52:25,980 The fact that a prosecutor did that shit, I think is absolutely wrong. 1087 00:52:26,190 --> 00:52:34,740 So I agree that he's a dumb ass, but it definitely downplays the extent 1088 00:52:34,830 --> 00:52:40,200 to which the defense team also used the media very selectively. 1089 00:52:41,565 --> 00:52:45,404 Yeah, they ran to the press conference like every day after court. 1090 00:52:46,245 --> 00:52:50,505 They went from the courtroom down to run and stand at a podium and 1091 00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:53,985 then tell the press everything that they had discovered and everything. 1092 00:52:53,985 --> 00:53:00,615 So they, for him it, like the prosecution did this terrible thing, but the defense 1093 00:53:00,884 --> 00:53:02,924 did exactly the same kind of bullshit. 1094 00:53:02,924 --> 00:53:03,855 Exactly. 1095 00:53:04,575 --> 00:53:08,595 And then, you know,

it talks about straying and, and budding 1096 00:53:08,625 --> 00:53:10,395 his two defense attorneys. 1097 00:53:10,904 --> 00:53:16,154 And it really frames 'em as being very thoughtful, very principled. 1098 00:53:16,185 --> 00:53:16,365 Yeah. 1099 00:53:17,115 --> 00:53:18,345 Almost heroic. 1100 00:53:19,005 --> 00:53:22,485 And how they carefully break down the problems with the 1101 00:53:22,485 --> 00:53:25,095 state's case and they raise this. 1102 00:53:25,770 --> 00:53:31,290 Whole thing of planting the evidence and the contamination issues around 1103 00:53:31,290 --> 00:53:35,850 the, the RAV4 key and the blood vial and the bullet, which some of 1104 00:53:35,850 --> 00:53:37,980 that we'll get to in later episodes. 1105 00:53:37,980 --> 00:53:38,040 Yeah. 1106 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:38,910 But it's coming. 1107 00:53:38,940 --> 00:53:40,290 Angela: The blood vial bothers me. 1108 00:53:40,290 --> 00:53:41,759 I'm just gonna say that outright. 1109 00:53:42,750 --> 00:53:45,210 John: Well, well, we're gonna talk about that next, so. 1110 00:53:45,214 --> 00:53:45,365 Okay. 1111 00:53:45,904 --> 00:53:51,870 You know, I think that it, it really, the, the series really minimizes the 1112 00:53:51,870 --> 00:53:54,360 weaknesses in the defense theories. 1113 00:53:54,870 --> 00:54:01,140 There was really a lack of any coherent alternative suspect narrative at all. 1114 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:07,170 And this idea that they say, you don't have to believe that the Sheriff's Office 1115 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,220 killed Theresa in order, how do you not. 1116 00:54:11,745 --> 00:54:16,545 How do you not, if you don't believe that the Sheriff's office killed 1117 00:54:16,545 --> 00:54:21,825 Theresa Halach, then you have to believe that somebody else did. 1118 00:54:22,065 --> 00:54:22,635 Angela: Somebody. 1119 00:54:22,635 --> 00:54:22,965 Yeah. 1120 00:54:23,055 --> 00:54:23,325 John: Oh no. 1121 00:54:23,325 --> 00:54:23,865 It gets better. 1122 00:54:24,045 --> 00:54:30,165 You have to believe that a girl that Steven Avery called to come to his house 1123 00:54:30,225 --> 00:54:37,905 that day, coincidentally, gets murdered by a completely unrelated person. 1124 00:54:38,655 --> 00:54:42,345 Then you have to believe that the sheriff's office, not only the 1125 00:54:42,345 --> 00:54:47,745 sheriff's office, a certain deputy or or a certain deputy in the sheriff's 1126 00:54:47,745 --> 00:54:53,085 office happens to discover the body who is also involved in this lawsuit, 1127 00:54:53,235 --> 00:54:59,715 who then decides instantaneously, I am gonna take this body this, and I am 1128 00:54:59,715 --> 00:55:02,355 going to use her body to frame stand. 1129 00:55:03,180 --> 00:55:06,270 That line of coincidences is absurd. 1130 00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:07,890 It cannot happen. 1131 00:55:07,890 --> 00:55:09,060 It cannot happen. 1132 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:13,650 You have to believe, have to believe that the sheriff's department and 1133

00:55:13,650 --> 00:55:18,750 the county will see the county murdered an innocent young girl 1134 00:55:18,930 --> 00:55:21,900 strictly to frame Stephen Avery. 1135 00:55:22,140 --> 00:55:22,470 Avery. 1136 00:55:22,470 --> 00:55:22,830 Yeah. 1137 00:55:23,130 --> 00:55:28,320 And the, the sheriff at the time said, and he got all kinds of shit for this, 1138 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:33,599 but he's absolutely right when he said it would be easier just to kill Steven Avery. 1139 00:55:34,110 --> 00:55:36,270 Yeah, right. 1140 00:55:36,270 --> 00:55:36,510 Yeah. 1141 00:55:36,510 --> 00:55:37,980 He did get a lot of shit for that. 1142 00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:39,240 Why wouldn't you though? 1143 00:55:39,390 --> 00:55:41,190 He's absolutely right. 1144 00:55:41,970 --> 00:55:46,920 If, if this guy's gonna sue us and we wanna make him go away and we're 1145 00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:51,300 willing to commit murder to do it, then make it look like an accident. 1146 00:55:51,450 --> 00:55:52,380 Just kill him. 1147 00:55:52,380 --> 00:55:52,740 Yeah. 1148 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:58,800 Why would you, why would you kill this innocent girl and frame him that everybody 1149 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:03,450 loved and take the chance that the jury's gonna find him not guilty when you 1150 00:56:03,450 --> 00:56:05,310 can just kill him and be done with it? 1151 00:56:05,790 --> 00:56:07,710 I think it was a very good point from the sheriff. 1152 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,200 I don't think he was talking outta his ass, and I, I just think 1153 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:18,540 that it's the most logical thing for them to have done otherwise. 1154 00:56:19,140 --> 00:56:21,780 Like I said, you have no options. 1155 00:56:21,780 --> 00:56:29,220 You have got to believe that the county murdered this girl strictly to 1156 00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:33,690 frame Stephen Avery, because if you believe, and how did they choose her? 1157 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:34,470 Right? 1158 00:56:35,100 --> 00:56:36,090 How did they choose her? 1159 00:56:37,125 --> 00:56:40,634 They had to have been monitoring his phone calls 1160 00:56:41,234 --> 00:56:41,415 Angela: Yeah. 1161 00:56:41,444 --> 00:56:44,325 John: To know that she was coming to his house pictures. 1162 00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:45,165 So she's 1163 00:56:45,165 --> 00:56:45,825 Angela: a good one. 1164 00:56:45,975 --> 00:56:46,365 Yeah. 1165 00:56:46,575 --> 00:56:49,995 John: And although he, and they don't, they don't show this shit 1166 00:56:49,995 --> 00:56:52,544 in making a murderer at all. 1167 00:56:52,875 --> 00:56:59,384 But it's very interesting to note that before Steven's girlfriend Jodi 1168 00:57:00,285 --> 00:57:02,774 was put in jail for drunk driving. 1169 00:57:02,774 --> 00:57:03,194 DUI. 1170 00:57:03,194 --> 00:57:03,464 Yeah. 1171 00:57:04,125 --> 00:57:08,834 He called Theresa once to come out and take a, a picture of the car. 1172 00:57:09,944 --> 00:57:14,355 And then right after Jodi goes to jail, he's calling her all the time. 1173 00:57:14,444 --> 00:57:18,225 I think he called her like five or six times before the last time. 1174 00:57:18,975 --> 00:57:24,674 It's very interesting how his woman not being there with him 1175 00:57:24,855 --> 00:57:27,794 completely changed his behavior. 1176 00:57:28,035 --> 00:57:32,924 And he starts calling Theresa Halach to come out all the freaking time and they 1177 00:57:32,924 --> 00:57:34,515 don't really touch on the fact that. 1178 00:57:35,295 --> 00:57:43,575 He freaking creeped her out when he came to the door naked with just the towel on. 1179 00:57:43,875 --> 00:57:48,945 And then he had like some kind of like a, like a b on his wall 1180 00:57:48,945 --> 00:57:53,385 with like women's shit on it, like women, and said, don't worry, you're 1181 00:57:53,385 --> 00:57:54,915 gonna be on there too one day. 1182 00:57:55,365 --> 00:57:56,655 Angela: Oh, I did not hear that. 1183 00:57:56,655 --> 00:57:57,315 Of course not. 1184 00:57:58,965 --> 00:58:03,765 John: And so she goes to her friends and she's like, he really creeps me out. 1185 00:58:03,945 --> 00:58:06,315 And her friends were like, don't go back there. 1186 00:58:06,615 --> 00:58:10,485 And then, but she is a responsible young woman. 1187 00:58:10,485 --> 00:58:13,335 You want her job and her job is sending her out there. 1188 00:58:13,635 --> 00:58:19,605 And so she goes, but we'll get to all that when we, when we get to those episodes. 1189 00:58:19,605 --> 00:58:20,865 So getting excited. 1190 00:58:20,865 --> 00:58:24,945 I'm getting ahead of myself, but we'll leave it there and we'll talk about. 1191 00:58:25,425 --> 00:58:31,665 At the very end of episode three, they indu, they introduced the 1192 00:58:31,665 --> 00:58:34,605 blood vial and the planted evidence. 1193 00:58:34,785 --> 00:58:35,265 Angela: Yeah. 1194 00:58:35,595 --> 00:58:36,375 John: And so, 1195 00:58:36,795 --> 00:58:39,525 Angela: but I do, I was left with a, a big question. 1196 00:58:40,095 --> 00:58:40,275 Yeah. 1197 00:58:40,275 --> 00:58:43,575 What, and I don't know if I'm jumping the gun 'cause I can't remember what 1198 00:58:43,605 --> 00:58:50,415 episode it was, but where would all the blood in the bedroom have been? 1199 00:58:50,655 --> 00:58:55,395 Because there wasn't, like, I'm, I'm still concerned about that. 1200 00:58:55,485 --> 00:58:57,435 The story that Brandon said. 1201 00:58:57,885 --> 00:58:59,385 John: Yeah, so we'll get to that. 1202 00:58:59,535 --> 00:59:00,315 Angela: We saw the blood. 1203 00:59:00,375 --> 00:59:02,625 John: We'll get to that when we get to those episodes. 1204 00:59:02,625 --> 00:59:02,655 Okay. 1205 00:59:02,655 --> 00:59:03,735 Because it's not this point. 1206 00:59:03,735 --> 00:59:03,945 So did 1207 00:59:03,945 --> 00:59:04,275 Angela: jump. 1208 00:59:04,275 --> 00:59:04,575 John: Okay. 1209 00:59:04,635 --> 00:59:04,965 Yeah. 1210 00:59:05,295 --> 00:59:10,905 But this one we're talking about the

blood vial, the discovery of the old blood vial 1211 00:59:11,445 --> 00:59:17,355 from Avery's 1985, case that was kept in evidence and it had a punctured stopper 1212 00:59:17,685 --> 00:59:20,325 and the evidence, the tape had been cut. 1213 00:59:20,415 --> 00:59:25,155 That suggests the possibility that someone accessed the stored blood, planted it 1214 00:59:25,215 --> 00:59:28,155 in hall box ref for to frame him and 1215 00:59:28,155 --> 00:59:29,625 Angela: corded it in random. 1216 00:59:30,060 --> 00:59:30,720 John: Random places, 1217 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,250 Angela: patterns that couldn't have happened. 1218 00:59:32,430 --> 00:59:37,110 John: I will say a hundred percent, the way that this evidence was 1219 00:59:37,110 --> 00:59:39,960 handled is absolutely a travesty. 1220 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:46,350 It is absolutely freaking ridiculous that this evidence was kept in the 1221 00:59:46,350 --> 00:59:51,210 county clerk's office, not in an evidence locker in the county clerk's office, 1222 00:59:51,660 --> 00:59:58,290 and was just piled on top of each other and it was an absolute freaking mess. 1223 00:59:58,350 --> 00:59:59,015 Difficult to get 1224 00:59:59,015 --> 00:59:59,175 Angela: to. 1225 01:00:00,030 --> 01:00:01,380 John: You gotta speak into the mic. 1226 01:00:01,380 --> 01:00:01,770 Angela: I'm sorry. 1227 01:00:01,770 --> 01:00:03,570 It didn't seem that difficult to get to. 1228 01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:06,210 John: No, I mean, it was just in the clerk's office, like 1229 01:00:06,210 --> 01:00:07,260 under a desk or something. 1230 01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:08,880 It was, I mean, it's ridiculous, 1231 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,870 Angela: but she's just using it as a footstool. 1232 01:00:12,885 --> 01:00:13,175 Yeah. 1233 01:00:13,785 --> 01:00:14,135 Right. 1234 01:00:14,370 --> 01:00:14,670 John: Yeah. 1235 01:00:15,180 --> 01:00:15,390 I mean 1236 01:00:15,390 --> 01:00:16,620 Angela: the clerk, oh yeah, that thing. 1237 01:00:16,620 --> 01:00:17,130 Okay. 1238 01:00:17,550 --> 01:00:20,400 John: The clerk had actually testified that she straightened up 1239 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,510 the evidence and stuff 'cause it was such a mess and there was like, 1240 01:00:24,780 --> 01:00:26,280 I don't know, some big piece that. 1241 01:00:26,970 --> 01:00:30,299 Could he be, the box couldn't be closed, and so the boxes 1242 01:00:30,299 --> 01:00:31,140 were just set in their own. 1243 01:00:31,140 --> 01:00:35,730 I mean, it's ridiculous, no doubt about it, but that isn't what they focus on. 1244 01:00:36,089 --> 01:00:40,980 They focus on the fact that this blood vial was punctured in the top. 1245 01:00:41,250 --> 01:00:43,680 Angela: Yeah, which legit pissed me off. 1246 01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:47,850 Well, on his side, like it made me feel bad for him. 1247 01:00:47,850 --> 01:00:49,529 When I first saw it, I was like, really? 1248 01:00:50,310 --> 01:00:50,700 John: Okay. 1249 01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:51,645 Until you realize. 1250 01:00:52,830 --> 01:00:56,220 Every blood vial is punctured on the top. 1251 01:00:56,580 --> 01:00:58,200 That's how they get the blood in there. 1252 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,610 Angela: And I've given blood so much, I should have known that. 1253 01:01:03,270 --> 01:01:03,570 John: Yeah. 1254 01:01:03,690 --> 01:01:06,840 There's like a, a sharp needle thing inside the mm-hmm. 1255 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,420 Inside the deal that they actually put in your arm. 1256 01:01:09,420 --> 01:01:11,220 They, they push the, yeah. 1257 01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:15,870 The tube into that, which punctures the rubber stopper at the top and 1258 01:01:15,870 --> 01:01:17,520 allows blood to flow into that. 1259 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,630 And you know why, and maybe you haven't gotten far enough into the making a 1260 01:01:21,630 --> 01:01:26,700 murderer yet, but you know why the blood vial never comes up again and 1261 01:01:26,700 --> 01:01:30,000 it never, and never goes anywhere. 1262 01:01:30,690 --> 01:01:34,470 Well, the reason is, is because phlebotomists would've come out of the 1263 01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:41,580 woodwork to testify that every vial of blood has a puncture in the top. 1264 01:01:41,970 --> 01:01:46,170 Angela: So no wonder, no wonder when I texted you and said 1265 01:01:46,290 --> 01:01:48,690 what you were like, just wait. 1266 01:01:49,595 --> 01:01:49,885 Yeah, 1267 01:01:50,550 --> 01:01:51,030 John: yeah. 1268 01:01:51,150 --> 01:01:52,860 Because look, I don't wanna wait. 1269 01:01:53,220 --> 01:01:57,900 It's absolute bullshit because, and then, and you'll never, you really 1270 01:01:57,900 --> 01:01:59,250 won't hear it talked about at all. 1271 01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:02,490 They like set it up like it's this big conspiracy, and 1272 01:02:02,490 --> 01:02:03,630 then it never goes anywhere. 1273 01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:05,580 It never goes anywhere with the trial. 1274 01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:12,180 It never goes anywhere because it was so easy to prove that it was bullshit. 1275 01:02:13,110 --> 01:02:14,549 That particular one. 1276 01:02:14,580 --> 01:02:18,029 I gotta say, when I first watched Making, making a Murderer, I was 1277 01:02:18,029 --> 01:02:21,750 totally on board with the whole Steven, Steven Avery got framed. 1278 01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:23,009 This is absolute bullshit. 1279 01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:25,140 I bought it Hook, line, and sinker. 1280 01:02:25,380 --> 01:02:27,029 I will be the first one to admit it. 1281 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:28,560 Angela: So you knew that I would. 1282 01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:32,040 And you were excited for like all this Bullshittery that 1283 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:33,299 John: I was gonna a hundred percent. 1284 01:02:33,390 --> 01:02:37,140 100%. Because that's what it was designed to do. 1285 01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:39,000 And they do a really good job at it. 1286 01:02:39,569 --> 01:02:42,600 But when I got to the blood vial part. 1287

01:02:43,259 --> 01:02:45,089 I was like, oh, this is bullshit. 1288 01:02:45,089 --> 01:02:47,279 I, I, this one I can't buy into. 1289 01:02:47,430 --> 01:02:52,470 I've seen way too many vials of blood, and of course I've worked in like a hospital 1290 01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:56,220 setting and shit, so I've probably seen this more than the average person does. 1291 01:02:56,250 --> 01:02:56,339 Mm-hmm. 1292 01:02:56,580 --> 01:03:00,240 But anybody that is like given blood and paid attention 1293 01:03:00,509 --> 01:03:02,759 would know it's always there. 1294 01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:07,049 You can't get blood into it, into the vial without puncturing the top. 1295 01:03:07,230 --> 01:03:10,799 There was nothing strange about that, and so I just thought it 1296 01:03:10,799 --> 01:03:16,620 was absolutely dishonest for them to, for them to present. 1297 01:03:16,620 --> 01:03:16,740 It. 1298 01:03:16,740 --> 01:03:16,890 Got 1299 01:03:17,490 --> 01:03:19,980 Angela: really excited calling people about it. 1300 01:03:20,955 --> 01:03:22,365 John: Oh yeah, he was on the phone. 1301 01:03:22,515 --> 01:03:22,815 Right. 1302 01:03:23,085 --> 01:03:27,705 And there is a puncture right in the top and I'm sure very excited about it. 1303 01:03:27,705 --> 01:03:31,515 On the other end of that phone call, which you don't hear, whoever he was talking 1304 01:03:31,515 --> 01:03:33,495 to was probably like, yeah, dip shit. 1305 01:03:33,495 --> 01:03:34,695 There always is. 1306 01:03:34,965 --> 01:03:36,315 That's how the blood gets in there. 1307 01:03:36,585 --> 01:03:40,635 It's not like they pull the rubber stopper out and drain your blood into a tube, 1308 01:03:41,145 --> 01:03:42,045 Angela: dump it in there. 1309 01:03:42,465 --> 01:03:46,725 John: So anyway, that's the, the blood vial bullshit that they put. 1310 01:03:46,935 --> 01:03:50,895 And again, the evidence I think was mishandled. 1311 01:03:50,895 --> 01:03:52,695 I think it was absolutely ridiculous. 1312 01:03:52,695 --> 01:03:52,755 Yeah. 1313 01:03:52,755 --> 01:03:57,105 The way it was taken care of, the blood vial thing is bullshit. 1314 01:03:57,225 --> 01:03:58,275 It goes nowhere. 1315 01:03:58,995 --> 01:04:06,345 And then, um, in episode three, they, they kind of start to introduce Brendan Dasey 1316 01:04:06,855 --> 01:04:09,825 and he's introduced as this cognitively. 1317 01:04:10,529 --> 01:04:14,340 Impaired teenager that's been drawn into the case. 1318 01:04:14,340 --> 01:04:19,470 They start showing little clippets of the interrogation footage and hinting. 1319 01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:26,430 Angela: Yeah, his full IQ is what, 72, but his conversational IQ was 69. 1320 01:04:26,790 --> 01:04:27,120 John: Right? 1321 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:27,720 Yeah. 1322 01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:28,770 Some shit like that. 1323 01:04:29,310 --> 01:04:33,750 So we know it's gonna be explored more as we work throughout the season, but 1324 01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:38,100 this is really planting the little kernels that his confession is the 1325 01:04:38,100 --> 01:04:43,049 product of suggestion and coercion rather than any kind of reliable 1326 01:04:43,049 --> 01:04:44,910 events or anything you can tell us. 1327 01:04:44,910 --> 01:04:47,069 Brandon, you can tell us what 1328 01:04:47,069 --> 01:04:47,850 Angela: really happened. 1329 01:04:49,110 --> 01:04:55,049 John: Right, and I gotta say on this one, I was 100% like Abso. 1330 01:04:55,380 --> 01:04:56,009 Absolutely. 1331 01:04:56,190 --> 01:04:58,710 This is Jesse, Ms. Kelly all over again. 1332 01:04:58,710 --> 01:05:01,980 This is a cognitive, cognitively impaired kid that. 1333 01:05:02,865 --> 01:05:08,625 That really was led into this confession and the parts that they show you, you 1334 01:05:08,625 --> 01:05:11,625 know, really, and I don't remember if it's in episode three or not, but it 1335 01:05:11,625 --> 01:05:17,055 will come if it's not where they say, you know, what did you do with her head? 1336 01:05:17,055 --> 01:05:17,295 What? 1337 01:05:17,475 --> 01:05:18,285 With the head? 1338 01:05:18,285 --> 01:05:19,755 What happened with the head? 1339 01:05:19,755 --> 01:05:19,815 Yeah. 1340 01:05:20,295 --> 01:05:22,515 And then he's like, I was cut her hair. 1341 01:05:22,605 --> 01:05:23,835 I'm gonna come out and say it. 1342 01:05:23,835 --> 01:05:25,035 Who shot her in the head? 1343 01:05:25,305 --> 01:05:25,665 Angela: Yeah. 1344 01:05:25,725 --> 01:05:29,025 John: And, and so they make a really big deal about that and everything. 1345 01:05:29,445 --> 01:05:29,805 Mm-hmm. 1346 01:05:30,375 --> 01:05:37,245 The problem is when you listen to all of the confession, it's not that clear cut. 1347 01:05:37,725 --> 01:05:40,515 And I have listen to all of his confessions. 1348 01:05:40,515 --> 01:05:40,845 It's some clever 1349 01:05:40,845 --> 01:05:41,625 Angela: editing there. 1350 01:05:42,225 --> 01:05:44,325 John: Oh, we haven't even gotten to the clutter of c Clever. 1351 01:05:45,615 --> 01:05:51,735 The dishonest editing that occurs in making a murder should be criminal. 1352 01:05:51,825 --> 01:05:52,185 I mean. 1353 01:05:52,890 --> 01:05:56,400 It should be freaking criminal what they did, but we will get there. 1354 01:05:56,820 --> 01:06:02,250 So, and then that's kind of where episode three winds itself down to the end, is 1355 01:06:02,250 --> 01:06:08,670 planting this seed of Brendan Dossey's, coerced confession, this poor, dumb kid 1356 01:06:08,940 --> 01:06:15,240 that the cops railroaded into confessing, and then it kind of comes to an end. 1357 01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:21,570 So really across the first three episodes, um, it organizes the material 1358 01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:28,110 that kind of underscores this pattern of bias and conflict of interest, and 1359 01:06:28,110 --> 01:06:35,520 then this potential corruption of the entire Manitowoc County system, which 1360 01:06:35,850 --> 01:06:37,770 really kind of invites the

viewers. 1361 01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:43,680 Almost forces the viewers to doubt every piece of evidence that the state 1362 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,450 is going to bring into this case. 1363 01:06:45,450 --> 01:06:49,920 Like, yeah, after you finish episode three, everything that the state does 1364 01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:54,360 now is questionable and you don't, you're not gonna believe it because 1365 01:06:54,360 --> 01:06:55,770 there are a bunch of corrupt bastards. 1366 01:06:55,770 --> 01:06:56,460 Exactly. 1367 01:06:56,460 --> 01:06:56,790 That I 1368 01:06:56,790 --> 01:06:59,310 Angela: was like, I don't, Hmm. 1369 01:06:59,340 --> 01:07:00,780 Dunno what to think the whole time. 1370 01:07:00,780 --> 01:07:01,560 Dunno what to think. 1371 01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:03,390 That was my theme that night. 1372 01:07:03,630 --> 01:07:04,020 John: Yeah. 1373 01:07:04,350 --> 01:07:10,140 And that's kind of how you go through this whole freaking thing is, 1374 01:07:10,170 --> 01:07:13,380 Angela: but now that I know that's what they want, I'm pissed in a different way. 1375 01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,650 John: Oh, when we get to the trial testimony, you are going 1376 01:07:16,650 --> 01:07:19,170 to be livid because it's, 1377 01:07:19,170 --> 01:07:20,160 Angela: you're excited for it. 1378 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:21,450 I can see it in your face. 1379 01:07:21,540 --> 01:07:21,990 John: Oh yeah. 1380 01:07:22,020 --> 01:07:22,290 Yeah. 1381 01:07:22,290 --> 01:07:25,260 If I had it my way, I'd go through the whole freaking thing right now. 1382 01:07:25,260 --> 01:07:28,530 But we're already over an hour in this episode and we've only 1383 01:07:28,530 --> 01:07:33,060 covered three episodes, so Yeah, I believe there's seven more to go. 1384 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,160 'cause I'm pretty sure that's a 10 episode. 1385 01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:37,350 It's a 10 episode series. 1386 01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,529 There has been a couple of books written about this. 1387 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:42,840 Ken Kratz wrote a book. 1388 01:07:42,870 --> 01:07:43,680 I haven't read it. 1389 01:07:44,070 --> 01:07:46,620 I don't really give a shit what he has to say. 1390 01:07:46,650 --> 01:07:47,670 I can't stand the guy. 1391 01:07:47,759 --> 01:07:47,910 Mm-hmm. 1392 01:07:48,150 --> 01:07:49,860 But he did write a book. 1393 01:07:49,860 --> 01:07:51,450 It's probably pretty interesting. 1394 01:07:51,779 --> 01:07:58,080 Um, bunting wrote a book also, um, because on this, something to tour with. 1395 01:07:58,080 --> 01:07:58,950 Well, absolutely. 1396 01:07:58,950 --> 01:07:59,130 Yeah. 1397 01:07:59,130 --> 01:08:01,020 You gotta, you gotta make your money somehow. 1398 01:08:01,020 --> 01:08:05,730 And so, um, and then, uh, I don't have his name in front of me, but 1399 01:08:05,730 --> 01:08:09,390 the startoff, little Peckerwood that becomes DA's attorney. 1400 01:08:09,390 --> 01:08:12,120 I'm gonna have a lot to say about him because Oh 1401 01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:12,540 Angela: yeah. 1402 01:08:12,545 --> 01:08:12,665 I think 1403 01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:13,170 John: he tries 1404 01:08:13,170 --> 01:08:14,340 Angela: to fire him, doesn't he? 1405 01:08:14,820 --> 01:08:15,390 John: Yes. 1406 01:08:15,395 --> 01:08:15,545 Yeah. 1407 01:08:15,810 --> 01:08:20,819 And then finally the judge discharges him from the case because 1408 01:08:21,090 --> 01:08:23,640 he freaking really screws up. 1409 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:25,080 I can't even believe this shit happened. 1410 01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,600 But that'll come down the road a little bit. 1411 01:08:27,990 --> 01:08:34,500 So anyway, we leave this with this idea that, and kind of the, kind 1412 01:08:34,500 --> 01:08:36,960 of the whole idea behind this. 1413 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:44,430 Dark Dialogue Project of Unraveled Truths is this idea that we have, 1414 01:08:44,670 --> 01:08:50,700 that documentaries are honest and lay out the facts and let the 1415 01:08:50,730 --> 01:08:53,220 viewer make their own decision. 1416 01:08:53,430 --> 01:08:59,070 And in reality, documentaries are entertainment pieces that are 1417 01:08:59,070 --> 01:09:01,470 put together by biased people. 1418 01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:02,915 Most, not all. 1419 01:09:03,950 --> 01:09:04,755 I would say all. 1420 01:09:04,785 --> 01:09:05,895 You would say all, yeah. 1421 01:09:05,955 --> 01:09:06,225 Okay. 1422 01:09:06,225 --> 01:09:11,505 I would say all are, let you say what you wanna say are put together by a person 1423 01:09:11,505 --> 01:09:14,055 that has a bias one way or the other. 1424 01:09:14,385 --> 01:09:16,365 And right, wrong, or indifferent. 1425 01:09:16,365 --> 01:09:20,985 I'm not saying that all documentaries are geared towards deceiving you. 1426 01:09:21,165 --> 01:09:21,495 Right. 1427 01:09:21,585 --> 01:09:22,695 That's not the case at all. 1428 01:09:22,695 --> 01:09:28,755 But all documentaries, if you really take a look at 'em, are presented 1429 01:09:28,935 --> 01:09:31,485 from a particular perspective. 1430 01:09:31,815 --> 01:09:35,565 They don't just lay out the facts probably because it'd be boring as shit 1431 01:09:35,835 --> 01:09:37,995 and nobody would actually watch them. 1432 01:09:38,775 --> 01:09:41,115 Angela: I don't know, maybe dark dialogue should try 1433 01:09:41,415 --> 01:09:44,835 John: maybe, but I think we'd fail because I don't think that's what viewers want. 1434 01:09:45,195 --> 01:09:49,725 And West Memphis three, uh, the Paradise Lost trilogy that we talked about on 1435 01:09:49,725 --> 01:09:51,885 the last episode, it's no different. 1436 01:09:52,485 --> 01:09:53,775 They had a perspective too. 1437 01:09:53,775 --> 01:09:56,685 Their perspective was these boys were wrongfully accused. 1438 01:09:56,985 --> 01:10:00,915 I happen to agree with that perspective, but regardless. 1439 01:10:01,590 --> 01:10:04,530 It was a perspective, they definitely, yeah. 1440 01:10:04,590 --> 01:10:09,510

Came at this at an angle and I can't think of a single one that 1441 01:10:09,630 --> 01:10:16,080 doesn't now, when you go to like true crime, like shows, recurring 1442 01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:17,940 shows like forensic files or Right. 1443 01:10:18,059 --> 01:10:24,600 FBI files or, um, I dunno, cold case files or apparently they all end with files. 1444 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:27,330 They all, it's just files. 1445 01:10:27,510 --> 01:10:33,180 There's several of those that I think take a, a pretty unbiased approach and 1446 01:10:33,180 --> 01:10:35,309 just kinda lay out the facts of the case. 1447 01:10:35,309 --> 01:10:35,320 Mm-hmm. 1448 01:10:35,335 --> 01:10:35,910 And here it is. 1449 01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:39,360 And, and that's I think why they can do that in like a 30 1450 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,100 minute show for forensic files. 1451 01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:45,330 The original, original forensic files at work, an hour long episode for 1452 01:10:45,330 --> 01:10:49,500 almost all the rest of 'em because they don't really come at it from an angle. 1453 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:51,269 They just give you the details. 1454 01:10:51,269 --> 01:10:55,470 When I say a documentary, yeah, I'm talking about like a full length. 1455 01:10:55,830 --> 01:11:00,690 Documentary or in case of making of a, making a Murderer or the staircase. 1456 01:11:00,690 --> 01:11:05,310 That's another perfect example of this is yeah, where they come at this 1457 01:11:05,460 --> 01:11:11,220 from an angle and they lay it out over hours, and in order to fill that time, 1458 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,380 you almost have to have an angle. 1459 01:11:13,740 --> 01:11:17,370 One way or the other, you are either proving this guy is guilty or 1460 01:11:17,370 --> 01:11:19,050 you're proving this guy's innocent. 1461 01:11:19,470 --> 01:11:23,400 And the the staircase is one that definitely deserves a 1462 01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:25,170 place in Unraveled truce. 1463 01:11:25,170 --> 01:11:26,340 Have you, you've watched that one. 1464 01:11:26,340 --> 01:11:27,060 Oh, yep. 1465 01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,120 And so just real quickly, we're not gonna break it down or anything, 1466 01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:31,680 but what are your thoughts on that? 1467 01:11:32,100 --> 01:11:34,980 Is, is Michael, what's his nuts guilty? 1468 01:11:35,010 --> 01:11:38,520 Did he murder his wife or was it owls? 1469 01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:43,800 Angela: My opinion he did or he had something to do with it. 1470 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,450 At Le at the very least. 1471 01:11:46,304 --> 01:11:48,434 His hands are not clean, in my opinion. 1472 01:11:48,885 --> 01:11:50,565 John: I have such a hard time with that one. 1473 01:11:50,565 --> 01:11:54,974 It's, it's so much harder than, uh, making murderers for me. 1474 01:11:54,974 --> 01:11:55,035 Have 1475 01:11:55,304 --> 01:11:57,795 Angela: two wives die the same way. 1476 01:11:58,304 --> 01:12:02,505 John: So Kathleen wasn't, I'm pretty sure it was Ka wasn't a wife wasn't a wife, it 1477 01:12:02,505 --> 01:12:04,965 was their like family friend or whatever. 1478 01:12:05,445 --> 01:12:07,125 Angela: They were having an affair, supposedly. 1479 01:12:08,445 --> 01:12:08,655 John: Yeah. 1480 01:12:08,655 --> 01:12:10,335 I don't know that that was ever proved. 1481 01:12:10,394 --> 01:12:10,815 Okay. 1482 01:12:10,815 --> 01:12:12,764 But I'm not taking a side. 1483 01:12:13,035 --> 01:12:14,655 I have a hard time with it too. 1484 01:12:14,655 --> 01:12:18,045 I, I, I go back and forth on that one. 1485 01:12:18,045 --> 01:12:22,245 Like, I don't know, may I think he did it and the blood's bad, maybe did it? 1486 01:12:22,845 --> 01:12:22,965 Yeah. 1487 01:12:22,965 --> 01:12:27,165 But didn't you have Dr. Lee that comes in and he's, I mean, he lays 1488 01:12:27,165 --> 01:12:29,295 out a pretty convincing case that. 1489 01:12:29,940 --> 01:12:32,700 It was from like coughing it up and shit. 1490 01:12:32,700 --> 01:12:35,430 But anyway, we can't rehash or we can't hash through a 1491 01:12:35,430 --> 01:12:36,840 whole nother freaking series. 1492 01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:40,950 But it, that's just an example of another one that I'm talking about like this. 1493 01:12:40,950 --> 01:12:42,450 And there's a bunch of 'em. 1494 01:12:42,450 --> 01:12:47,820 You know, there's the Crystal Rogers one, there's the Jennings eight one, which, you 1495 01:12:47,820 --> 01:12:49,650 know, I, I've talked about extensively. 1496 01:12:49,650 --> 01:12:50,760 I've watched it a lot. 1497 01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,260 Angela: 47,000 1498 01:12:52,260 --> 01:12:55,410 John: murtaugh ones that, oh, there's Murtaugh. 1499 01:12:55,680 --> 01:13:00,480 For whatever reason, that asshole is like the most popular criminal 1500 01:13:00,510 --> 01:13:02,370 ever, and I don't get it. 1501 01:13:02,610 --> 01:13:05,790 Like he's just a freaking most fucking criminal of 2025. 1502 01:13:05,820 --> 01:13:09,030 He's just a freaking freaking attorney. 1503 01:13:09,030 --> 01:13:13,019 I don't understand why I don't understand it. 1504 01:13:13,140 --> 01:13:13,200 Yeah. 1505 01:13:13,200 --> 01:13:15,390 But anyway, yeah, that's another one. 1506 01:13:15,390 --> 01:13:20,970 So, but I hope that you guys have enjoyed this episode of Unraveled Truce. 1507 01:13:20,970 --> 01:13:21,510 You know what I mean? 1508 01:13:21,510 --> 01:13:22,320 Before we go, 1509 01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:27,090 Angela: can we just agree that the first forensic files voice. 1510 01:13:27,719 --> 01:13:28,710 Was amazing. 1511 01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,349 And this, the next one's not so much. 1512 01:13:31,410 --> 01:13:32,099 John: Oh, a hundred percent. 1513 01:13:32,099 --> 01:13:34,110 I mean, forensic files. 1514 01:13:34,110 --> 01:13:35,670 The original forensic files. 1515 01:13:35,700 --> 01:13:35,910 Yeah. 1516 01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:36,630 I love it. 1517 01:13:36,780 --> 01:13:37,050 Angela: Who is, 1518

01:13:37,200 --> 01:13:37,710 John: I mean 1519 01:13:37,710 --> 01:13:38,099 Angela: Guy. 1520 01:13:38,099 --> 01:13:40,230 'cause I would like to listen to him all day. 1521 01:13:40,230 --> 01:13:41,460 John: I'm pretty sure he passed away. 1522 01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:41,880 Damn it. 1523 01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:46,320 I'm almost positive that he passed away because I think that um, that was 1524 01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,760 brought up with the forensic files too, when it came out that they would've gone 1525 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:52,769 with him again, but he had passed away. 1526 01:13:52,769 --> 01:13:55,080 It's kinda like Robert Stack and Unsolved Mysteries. 1527 01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:56,010 Exactly. 1528 01:13:56,010 --> 01:13:59,460 And when they did the new unsolved mysteries Exactly. 1529 01:13:59,460 --> 01:14:01,590 He would, he had passed away so he couldn't do it. 1530 01:14:01,650 --> 01:14:05,670 Angela: That guy's voice though, I would almost, and this might get 1531 01:14:05,670 --> 01:14:11,040 some hate, I would almost put better than Morgan Freeman's in a narration. 1532 01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,025 John: Robert Stacks or the forensic prop guy. 1533 01:14:13,184 --> 01:14:13,620 Forensic files 1534 01:14:13,620 --> 01:14:13,950 Angela: guy. 1535 01:14:13,980 --> 01:14:14,400 Yeah. 1536 01:14:14,910 --> 01:14:15,420 Like it's, 1537 01:14:15,990 --> 01:14:17,005 John: I mean, he was, how is 1538 01:14:17,005 --> 01:14:18,960 Angela: he telling you the shittiest things? 1539 01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:23,790 The most vile things, but it's so soothing to listen to his voice. 1540 01:14:24,780 --> 01:14:24,990 John: Yeah. 1541 01:14:24,990 --> 01:14:28,020 I mean, he, he is so, yeah. 1542 01:14:28,020 --> 01:14:29,700 His name was Peter Thomas. 1543 01:14:30,510 --> 01:14:30,750 Yes. 1544 01:14:30,750 --> 01:14:32,340 And, um, he did 1545 01:14:32,340 --> 01:14:32,610 Angela: die, 1546 01:14:32,610 --> 01:14:33,180 John: didn't he? 1547 01:14:33,570 --> 01:14:34,890 Yeah, he passed away. 1548 01:14:35,010 --> 01:14:35,880 Um, let me see. 1549 01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:37,470 He passed away. 1550 01:14:39,549 --> 01:14:41,025 In 2016, 1551 01:14:41,205 --> 01:14:42,209 Angela: well rest in peace. 1552 01:14:42,495 --> 01:14:42,644 John: Yeah. 1553 01:14:42,674 --> 01:14:46,275 He passed away in 2016, but he was, um, 1554 01:14:46,514 --> 01:14:49,905 Angela: when I can find the original ones, I'm a happy girl. 1555 01:14:50,205 --> 01:14:52,394 John: Oh, they're all on, they're all on Amazon Prime. 1556 01:14:52,394 --> 01:14:56,504 No, and I don't know, I watch 'em with commercials because I don't 1557 01:14:56,504 --> 01:14:58,065 subscribe to whatever they're on. 1558 01:14:58,065 --> 01:14:59,955 So you have to put up in the commercials. 1559 01:14:59,955 --> 01:15:04,035 Yeah, but I watch 'em, I've, I've watched all of the forensic files. 1560 01:15:04,304 --> 01:15:05,655 I couldn't even tell you how many times. 1561 01:15:05,655 --> 01:15:05,924 'cause. 1562 01:15:06,330 --> 01:15:10,380 When I was younger, that was the most exciting thing about staying 1563 01:15:10,380 --> 01:15:14,400 in a motel, was I could watch forensic files and FBI files. 1564 01:15:14,400 --> 01:15:16,230 'cause I didn't get, I didn't have cable. 1565 01:15:16,230 --> 01:15:16,650 So 1566 01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:20,160 Angela: I was just about to say, when I stay in a motel now I seek 1567 01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:21,630 it out because it helps me sleep. 1568 01:15:21,750 --> 01:15:22,050 John: Yeah. 1569 01:15:22,050 --> 01:15:25,830 I mean it was, that is, that's my big memory of like staying 1570 01:15:26,100 --> 01:15:27,495 in motels when I was younger is. 1571 01:15:28,285 --> 01:15:30,144 Being able to watch forensic files. 1572 01:15:30,205 --> 01:15:31,135 Angela: How funny we are. 1573 01:15:31,195 --> 01:15:33,325 Okay, well I'll, I'll let you close. 1574 01:15:33,325 --> 01:15:35,330 I got us off on a tangent again, but, 1575 01:15:35,335 --> 01:15:36,475 John: but no, I mean, it's good. 1576 01:15:36,475 --> 01:15:38,365 And that's, you know, that's kind of one of the fun things 1577 01:15:38,365 --> 01:15:40,045 about this show, so, you know, 1578 01:15:40,585 --> 01:15:43,644 Angela: and pay respect to, to the guy man, he did well. 1579 01:15:43,705 --> 01:15:44,575 John: Oh, absolutely. 1580 01:15:44,575 --> 01:15:45,655 He had an incredible voice. 1581 01:15:45,655 --> 01:15:49,165 It was an awesome show and it really was groundbreaking 1582 01:15:49,465 --> 01:15:51,775 for the whole Oh, absolutely. 1583 01:15:51,775 --> 01:15:52,195 It does. 1584 01:15:52,405 --> 01:15:56,845 And really was groundbreaking for this whole era of true crime that we're in now. 1585 01:15:57,415 --> 01:16:00,955 When Forensic Files came out, it was kind of the trendsetter. 1586 01:16:01,015 --> 01:16:01,225 Yeah. 1587 01:16:01,225 --> 01:16:03,205 It hadn't really been done before. 1588 01:16:03,445 --> 01:16:08,755 You had Unsolved Mysteries, but that wasn't really a true crime series. 1589 01:16:08,905 --> 01:16:09,085 Yeah. 1590 01:16:09,085 --> 01:16:14,455 That was didn't teach you things Well, and it was, they focused on unsolved mystery. 1591 01:16:14,455 --> 01:16:14,515 Yeah. 1592 01:16:14,545 --> 01:16:17,995 So it could be aliens, it could be hauntings, you know? 1593 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:18,130 Yeah. 1594 01:16:18,135 --> 01:16:19,165 It could be whatever. 1595 01:16:19,165 --> 01:16:20,245 Paranormal shit. 1596 01:16:20,245 --> 01:16:22,885 It could be crypto, just cryptozoology. 1597 01:16:23,005 --> 01:16:23,185 Yeah. 1598 01:16:23,245 --> 01:16:25,525 It could be all of this different shit where. 1599 01:16:25,885 --> 01:16:30,144 Forensic files was really dedicated to, to true crime. 1600 01:16:30,445 --> 01:16:30,655 Right. 1601 01:16:30,804 --> 01:16:31,525 For the most part. 1602 01:16:31,525 --> 01:16:37,675 I usually skip the episodes that aren't true crime, like

the fires and the, 1603 01:16:38,275 --> 01:16:40,315 the fog and you know, that kinda stuff. 1604 01:16:40,315 --> 01:16:40,405 Mm-hmm. 1605 01:16:40,644 --> 01:16:44,304 There's a few of those episodes that aren't crime related, but not very many. 1606 01:16:44,545 --> 01:16:45,445 But anyway. 1607 01:16:46,210 --> 01:16:49,179 Um, we hope that you've enjoyed this episode. 1608 01:16:49,179 --> 01:16:50,679 We hope you enjoyed these discussions. 1609 01:16:50,679 --> 01:16:55,420 I do think it's important to note that, um, these are not deep dives. 1610 01:16:55,630 --> 01:16:58,839 We're probably gonna get shit wrong because we're not running off of a 1611 01:16:58,839 --> 01:17:01,360 script, we're just pulling out of memory. 1612 01:17:01,420 --> 01:17:01,599 Yeah. 1613 01:17:01,660 --> 01:17:05,980 We're just a couple of friends sitting down talking about true crime 1614 01:17:05,980 --> 01:17:10,269 documentaries and shows my memory that we've enjoyed and, and rather 1615 01:17:10,269 --> 01:17:13,360 than sit here and talk without the microphones on, we just thought, Hey, 1616 01:17:13,719 --> 01:17:16,360 why don't we turn the microphones on and have these conversations? 1617 01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:20,920 So, you know, some of these cases, probably most of these cases, we'll find 1618 01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:26,440 their way into our deep dive dark dialogue main show where Rocky Mountain Reckoning. 1619 01:17:26,440 --> 01:17:30,849 If they fit there, eventually they'll probably show up somewhere where 1620 01:17:30,849 --> 01:17:35,710 we can really dive in and show all the evidence and really talk about 1621 01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:37,389 all of the aspects of the case. 1622 01:17:37,389 --> 01:17:38,440 But that's not this show. 1623 01:17:38,440 --> 01:17:41,860 This is just us bullshitting about something that we saw. 1624 01:17:41,889 --> 01:17:45,380 Angela: I kind of feel like this invites people too, if we start talking about. 1625 01:17:45,610 --> 01:17:47,889 This before we get into the deep dive. 1626 01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:52,630 If people know something that we don't know, yeah, 1627 01:17:52,900 --> 01:17:53,860 John: they can reach out to em. 1628 01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:54,969 They can let us know. 1629 01:17:54,969 --> 01:17:58,870 You know, and so, but you know, I just don't want there to be any confusion 1630 01:17:58,870 --> 01:18:01,839 when you know, somebody listens to this and they're like, that's not right. 1631 01:18:01,929 --> 01:18:02,230 Yeah. 1632 01:18:02,230 --> 01:18:03,400 It's probably not right. 1633 01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:04,900 Angela: Isn't meant to be gospel. 1634 01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:05,410 John: Yeah. 1635 01:18:05,410 --> 01:18:07,599 I mean, it is just us bullshitting. 1636 01:18:07,809 --> 01:18:09,670 Honestly, that's really what it is. 1637 01:18:10,059 --> 01:18:10,960 You know, I do. 1638 01:18:11,655 --> 01:18:16,245 Make it a point to like watch the shit beforehand and you do too, so that 1639 01:18:16,245 --> 01:18:20,055 we actually have it in our recall of what happened and that kinda stuff. 1640 01:18:20,055 --> 01:18:24,015 But at the end of the day, I, I'm, we're just working off a memory here. 1641 01:18:24,075 --> 01:18:24,165 Yep. 1642 01:18:24,285 --> 01:18:26,055 So, but if you're 1643 01:18:26,295 --> 01:18:27,045 Angela: entertaining, 1644 01:18:27,495 --> 01:18:29,115 John: but that's, yeah, we're just entertaining. 1645 01:18:29,115 --> 01:18:31,155 We're just having fun and recording it essentially. 1646 01:18:31,545 --> 01:18:35,565 So, but if you like this episode, if you like what we are doing here on 1647 01:18:35,565 --> 01:18:38,474 this, then please share the episode. 1648 01:18:38,925 --> 01:18:40,755 Give us a like, give us a follow. 1649 01:18:40,815 --> 01:18:42,615 Hit the thumbs up, hit the bell. 1650 01:18:42,915 --> 01:18:44,595 You know, let somebody else know about this. 1651 01:18:44,655 --> 01:18:47,295 If you think it's a lot of fun, let's spread the fun. 1652 01:18:47,325 --> 01:18:48,765 Leave us a comment if you know 1653 01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:49,665 Angela: something we don't. 1654 01:18:49,785 --> 01:18:50,625 John: Yeah, comment. 1655 01:18:50,835 --> 01:18:53,805 You can also email us at in info dark dialogue.com. 1656 01:18:53,985 --> 01:18:58,184 You can find all of our shows@darkdialogue.com, our website 1657 01:18:58,184 --> 01:19:01,065 where we have all of our shows showcased. 1658 01:19:01,095 --> 01:19:05,805 And you know, we're available everywhere that you listen to your podcast. 1659 01:19:05,805 --> 01:19:11,025 We're on Spotify, we're on Apple, we're on YouTube, we're on iHeart. 1660 01:19:11,535 --> 01:19:12,465 We're everywhere. 1661 01:19:12,465 --> 01:19:15,644 So, and each of our shows have their own channel. 1662 01:19:15,644 --> 01:19:18,434 You can either listen at the Dark Dialogue Network Channel where 1663 01:19:18,434 --> 01:19:22,815 you can hear everything, or if you just want to binge shadow chats or 1664 01:19:22,815 --> 01:19:24,495 just want to binge the main show. 1665 01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:26,190 They all have their own channels. 1666 01:19:26,190 --> 01:19:29,850 You can jump on there, you can follow those and just binge everything that 1667 01:19:29,850 --> 01:19:31,830 we've done on that particular platform. 1668 01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:35,850 With that being said, if you want to support the show, you can do 1669 01:19:35,850 --> 01:19:41,970 so with like a one-time donation on coffee, that's k i.com coffee. 1670 01:19:42,180 --> 01:19:46,260 You can buy us a coffee there or you could support us on Patreon and take 1671 01:19:46,260 --> 01:19:51,210 advantages of a lot of the additional content and information on Patreon. 1672 01:19:51,450 --> 01:19:54,840 Or you could subscribe to our substack where we have all of the 1673 01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:56,490 deep dive information and shit. 1674 01:19:56,490 --> 01:20:00,690 If you're somebody that geeks out like we do over True Crime, you can get on there 1675 01:20:00,690 --> 01:20:06,150 and and read all of the shit that has led to the creating of these episodes. 1676 01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:10,860 And with that, if you don't have anything else to add, other than wishing everybody 1677 01:20:10,860 --> 01:20:14,220 to stay safe, and I don't know when this is coming up, but happy holidays. 1678 01:20:14,340 --> 01:20:15,150 Yeah, stay safe. 1679 01:20:15,180 --> 01:20:16,110 Happy holidays. 1680 01:20:16,110 --> 01:20:17,400 Thanks everybody for listening. 1681 01:20:18,090 --> 01:20:18,480 Angela: Okay, love you. 1682 01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:18,810 Bye.