התמלול המלא של Logic Integration's Growth from a Minivan Startup to Market Leader

you know, glimpse into what your origin story was, for those listening now, what was your path into this channel and and founding logic? So way back when when there was black and white TVs and two TVs and where you turned a dial And the antenna on your roof would turn to perfectly tune in that one channel that you wanted to watch out of the three that you had. Now, I'm I think a lot of people in a lot of industries, but specifically our industry, are hobbyists or technicians that turn it into a business. And so out of a lot of entrepreneurship where there's passion and drive. You know, money can come, right? A career can come out of that, and that's definitely me. So I'm a musician, my wife's a musician. We actually met touring in a band. True story. I can send you photos if you want. There might be stuff on YouTube, you never know. But I was a technician and I moved to Colorado after 9/11, and I worked for a business owner that that wasn't very honest. And I had a number of customers encourage me to go do my own thing, right? Integrity, honesty, and all those things do pay off. Whether you own a business or not, you know, as an employee too, you will, you know, steady wins the race. Do the right thing and you will succeed. I I started the business as a technician. If you've read the book Emith, which I talk about a lot, I was the technician. I didn't know how to run the business. I knew how to put in the stuff. I could talk about all the tech. But I had to learn the business and it was it was a a fun road. But I I really sought after people who knew more than me on the business side, whether it was finance, operations, even sales. I was the nervous, sweaty handed tech trying to teach a customer how to use all this stuff. I really just liked being behind a rack and doing all that stuff and running the wires, whether in an attic or a crawl space. And I had to learn the business. And I think anybody can learn the business. Yeah. Now I do more of that than the other stuff, right? Right. that's I I love getting into that too. for someone, because I I don't think you you said it, right? You're not alone in that. There are so many, and I we talked about it. Like a majority of the origin stories are kind of that, you know, someone that loved technology, loved to build things, tinker, and you're you're very used to being a doer, right? So like have a you like it's natural to go out there and build these systems, design these systems. but then to learn the business side. Like I this is the last question I'll ask that kind of is similar to what we asked, you know, during that session. But the the desire you talk about the desire to go out and realizing that you can, you know, go and do it on your own. You had people asking you to. but the d the making the decision to is a different story from like thinking, yeah, that's something I wanna do. Especially with eight hundred dollars on your bank account. Right, right. It's a it's a bit of a leap. So my minivan

was paid off though. There you go. so the the small wins, right? But that that decision to actually like go do it and say this is the path we're now gonna take, is a big one. So talk about what it was like to come to that decision and and making that leap to go out on your own. I think it takes a village. And so I, you know, my wife and I, we had a church community and people we had people around us, whether it was family or friends, to support us. And that doesn't mean feed us business. It means the people, the cheerleaders, the encouragers who are out there telling you, hey, you can do it. We got your back. You know, if you do fall on your face, we're gonna pick you back up and tell you to get back up again. And that's what I had. It it was the village behind us. It was my wife. And Mean my you know, another silly thing to do is to start a business when you have, you know, two little tiny kids. Man, dude, the the I the the similarities I it's just and I know I said this, you know, out there in Denver, but same here. It's crazy, right? Like I know you know, integration companies and a media company aren't necessarily in line we the the similarity is that we cover the same space. Business is business, but It is. So I I'm with you. I I think the only reason for me, like there's similar calls, right? People saying, go do this on your own. Like I think you could do it. Go, you know, the the brand was there to go get, but we got two boys, two little boys, nine and six, and you know, the only reason well, I s I say the only, one of the big reasons you talk about the villa like requiring a village, wife is a teacher. So a teacher, but anyone that knows benefits of a teacher, yeah, that you know, they they do pretty well. So I've never, you know, once in our life have we relied on my benefits as a business like being in business or my crew like whatever wherever I was working, hers always trumped mine. so that was a a a big part of it was like being able to rely on her benefits to get us through and make the decision to go do it. So It it's crazy when it those things in life, the stages in life. pretty aligned. So I I know exactly where you're coming from there. I I mean we when I was a tech, I was asked to put in used equipment at new prices. I was putting in refurbished stuff. So we would put in integro receivers in someone's home that had a big old B and C stock sticker on the bottom. And I was asked to tear it off. And I'm like, this is not right. And so eventually I was in a home of someone who owns a a large furniture store here in Colorado and nationwide. And he's like, Why aren't my speakers working in my brand new house? I mean, it's a big house. And I just was like, I can't do this anymore. And I I just sat him down and I said, Hey, listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to about some things. And I told him the truth, and that was my last day at that company. Wow. And But he said something to me. And by the way, we've done work for those stores over

the years. So full circle. Yeah. He said, if you go out and be honest and follow up and always do the right thing, you're going to succeed. And another customer of ours whom I was talking to yesterday, we've done three homes with. For almost 25 years, we've worked with this family. And it was so fun to talk to her. after they just finished their their last custom home, about how many years we've worked together. Like that's so fun to me. But one of the things I had passion about back to the passion part, Rob, was I always felt like technology should be easier to use. No surprise to my wife, I'm not a very pa patient person. And so when I walk up to a system or a touch panel or a room that I've never used before. The the end goal for us as integrators and our industry is to make it so it's easy to use. It's of course gotta be reliable. But if I walk into a home and I'm a guest, turning on the lights or turning on the music, or I walk into a meeting space or a restaurant, I don't want a screen full of every single button possible. Right? Right. I I just want to be able to turn it on and kind of walk you through a wireframe of, you know, in and out. And in means getting into turning everything on and out means being able to shut it down and leave. That's really it. It seems like it's in our it's in our our mission statement and a part of our core values intertwined is what makes us who we are. and that's an im incredibly important point about staying true. I it seems like such a simple concept to want to be you know, honest with customers. So I but I the shaking of your head, right? It's not like why you know, I I guess two part question. Why do you think it is so difficult? Or where do you think the, you know, the I guess the cutting of corners comes in and, you know, how have you guys been able to stay true to it, you know, since you stepped out on your own? I think every industry has a little bit of snake oil and smoke behind the sales, the sales pitch and all that. But I've been on the back end, I think it I think it's really because being a technician, I worked for somebody who promised the world and how everything was going to work together. And we were putting in all these brands that didn't even talk to each other back then. And it was all custom programming. And then I was the technician who had to face the client and explain why it was so difficult or didn't work every time. But they don't really want to hear the excuses. Right. Right. It's they don't have time for it. No, they just want it to work. I I became so entrusted with the brands that we were using because I would always use the same brands over and over again. When I had two employees, and I think the business had, I don't know, I think it had five or ten grand in our account. I sold a hundred thousand dollar system and this client's still a client today. And I basically told him that I guaranteed and promised this would work or I would tear it out and I would pay for it all. That was the risk I was willing to take because I was so sure that the brands I chose and the design we had put together was gonna work. And it did. Yeah. You know, I'm like, thank God when I got that sign-off document. That was a big bet. That was a pretty big it was a big bet, but I love sharing that story. And this this this family, we still joke around about it today. He you know, his name's Jim, he goes. Sean, do you remember when you told me that you guaranteed all this stuff would work and you were going to give me a hundred grand back? And I I told him, I was like, I didn't even have a hundred grand. Right. I was gonna ask, like, did he know that his approval was the the make or break for your business? No, I I rolled up in my my my Dodge Grand Caravan, grand caravan, which is a little bit longer, saying No, he just he just believed in me and he said that. He's like, I believe and trust you. It relation the foundation of every relationship is trust, right? Yeah. And so he, you know, he was a developer and built this amazing business and he had to trust people and give people a chance. And that's what he did. Yeah. I I know obviously the the great work at the end of the day is a big part of that, right? Like if you know, you could be the sweetest talker in the world, but if you're not delivering at the end of the day, it's gonna make a an impact. But At the same time, like you got to get to the point where they trust you enough to let you do that work. So talk about I mean, the relationship aspect of it is equally as important. And I know I that for you, if I remember right, some of those early days were you know, what like literally walking around the neighborhood or like driving around the neighborhood, I should say, and handing out business cards. So from that to going from that to, you know, developing the type of client relationships you've had over the years, talk about what that's been like. I think I worked for a guy back when I lived in California and he's still in the industry, Jeff Crawford. And we should send this to him. I always reference him. He he was my boss for many years and mentor, and I was his technician running wires in underneath houses and attics. And he basically was a tough love leader. You know, don't bitch and complain, get it done. And I remember one time I I cut the head end. Of a bunch of wires that came into the house. He asked me to trim them back, and so they were 12-15 feet long. And I got my thumb nippers out and I just started cutting on them like cool. Like, how long? Four feet? Okay, cool. Well, guess what? I cut off all the labels. Every one of them. no. So he's like, You're gonna stay this weekend and you're gonna go tone all those wires by yourself and you're gonna you're gonna relabel them. And he was just a tough love guy. Yeah. And so forward you know, fast forward, I think that's what has given me the the drive and the non you know complaining and bitching part is I just was taught that not

just by Jeff but other people in my life, mentors and pastors and stuff like that. That if you work, you know, I c I come from like the work hard family and my wife too, especially. What was the question, Rob? No, you're doing a great job answering it, whether you knew it or not. But about the the developing of the relationships, right? Like how how you've been able to go from someone that was just handing out cards to the hustler part. Right. The hustling, yeah. Yeah, I I had a friend, he he's still at Bay Area, his name's A Aaron Sagra, and we we grew up in you know high school college together, and he was a graphic designer, and I had him make brochures and business cards. And he was working for, you know, big Silicon Valley folks. And on the site, he made me these business cards. They were beautiful back in the day, brochures. And I drove around in my minivan, around and I stapled those things up to every new house. And if someone was walking around there, I would ask who who's running this job site? Which builder is this? You know, I didn't even know how to look for the b the builder and the architect on the sign. And you know, this was, you know, I'm not dating myself that much, but it was The internet was around, but it wasn't what it is today, where you could just ask AI. So I had to drive around and hustle. So in between job sites, you know, I would do all the work during the day. And then at night I would do, you know, invoicing estimates, bids, and ordering and all that stuff. I just became a hustler and I didn't really have a choice. Like, yeah. You know, and I didn't know how to do finance. I would I would write myself a check. And then I would just throw the checkstub in a drawer and I did that for over a year. True story. Yes. I had a I think my base salary was like I don't know, twenty grand. That was it. And I just kinda the owner's draw, baby. The owner's draw. And I yeah, I barely did any distributions. I just kinda survived. And my wife wasn't working. She was home schooling. Wow. And somehow, you know, we were provided for. It was a miracle. And so I just knew I had to hustle with two young kids and a wife at home. And I think that comes from other mentors that I've had in my life. That's awesome. it I mean, it shows the the level of determination and grit, right, to to want to succeed. at a certain point too, you know, you may you have the realization of all right, I can go do this on my own and it can happen. is there another realization of, you know, this is viable? Like 'cause there's always the questions, right, early on of like, all right, we did this, is it gonna work? And you keep grinding, you you always know or at at least expect in the back of your head that you're gonna be successful. Did you have a moment where you or have you had it yet where you realize like, hey, I am successful and and this is why? Yeah, I think every leader, not just business owner, I would say a leader in a leadership position has imposter

syndrome. It's always there, whether big or small. You know, Tony Robbins from you know, pick the leader. Yeah. There's a little bit of that in him. I bet you Tony doesn't have very much anymore. He seems to be doing just fine. But I do have that for sure. Like, am I good enough? Like, am I the right guy? Right. You know, if I get to a certain point, should I bring in another CEO? Which I probably would. If they were better than me, I am able to like step aside and be like, this person's way smarter than me. I'm gonna go do more of my love, what I love. I I'm in the place in my life where I'm okay with that. Like I've got people way smarter than me at our company. We have we have about 40 people or so. And there are people so much smarter than me. We're we're building a new showroom right now and and and buying a building. I'm not running the showroom. I'm not telling everybody what's going in there. They'll ask my opinion. Yeah. But but they're doing it. And so I think it was the moment of letting my team, you know, years ago move farther than me and learning all this stuff. A lot of manufacturers, even some will get frustrated with me, like, how come you don't know our newest model of whatever? I was like, I just don't really care. Yeah. You got a team that like you don't need to. Yeah, the capacity for I want to do the relationships. Yeah, the capacity for what you can or should even should, right? Like determining yeah. I think I I just think about how Jason Tyan would probably love this conversation right now. the bottlenecks, right? Like you don't think about the bottleneck or you don't want to be that, right? Bottlenecks and swim lanes. Yeah, exactly. So I mean he you know, that is an awesome thing to be able to to navigate as a leader, but then I you mentioned it too, that has to permeate throughout the rest of the team. When they see that you're behaving or or able to operate that way, it's kinda it sets the example for them. Yeah. Yeah, and and then establishing trust with Builder, architects, designer, IT manager, facilities manager, whoever it might be. I think the fact that I was roots a technician, I don't consider myself a salesperson, but I have accepted and even just feedback from my salespeople and team is like Sean, you go get the relationships and let us sell. I'm not the one talking in all the sales pitches. In fact, I don't do any sales anymore. I haven't for years. But I'm confident in talking about solutions and solving problems. That's my favorite part. Yeah. You know, it whenever we run into a goo, I call it a goofy project. You know, we years ago we did a a project for the children's museum here in Denver, and they had a competition essentially of who came up with the best idea across the US. And so Brian Thompson, who was our our Snap ADI rep for many, many years, he actually worked at our company for almost eight to ten years. And he went home and crafted this wood thing and like presented this idea and pitched it. It

wasn't me. It was Brian. And we won the project. It's it's it's still there to this day. And it just makes me so proud as you know, and trusting our team and embracing their talents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you mentioned you talk about the commercial side of things too. Like when you got into business, was it Always something where you were like residential on commercial, or is that something you expanded into? Good question. So we did start in residential in 2006, 2007. I really felt like we should diversify in having both, and we were getting some opportunities. And so at the time, one of our sales reps did not want to do commercial. And he was my top salesperson. And he ended up leaving. And we did go into commercial and then the economic crash happened. And we had builders going to one of our builders went and worked for Southwest Airlines and he was throwing bags on planes. Went from building custom homes to putting bags on planes. Tough times, but I am so glad that we diversified. Yeah. And so we're, you know, we're 5050 right now. for almost 12 to 14 years straight, we were 70% commercial until about COVID and then business really started to to pick up more momentum. And so we're still still 5050 and we do have separate teams for both, you know, certifications and both, et cetera. No, that's awesome. I the decision to do that, you know, when did was there like an opportunity or you what were those early opportunities? Like 'cause I I can't imagine I maybe I'm wrong. I who knows. but going from working on homes and custom homes to, you know, diving full on like was it straight into office buildings and things like that or did you sort of like ease your way into it? It was definitely an ease my way into it. But here's the thing to remember. So I I have a bachelor's in audio engineering from San Jose State. Yep. So I did Resi install when I was a musician and had like the recording studio at home and knew all that. And so there was this magical synergy between the two. Yeah. And both both markets I've d I've done a lot of panels with with Dan with Commercial Integrator on the ResiMershall business, but there's a lot of similarities. There's a lot of differences. There's a lot of similarities. Like technology, technology should disappear, which I know you guys are about. It should be easy to use, reliable. documentation standards and service are very, very important. And so I really just applied that to the it was mainly meeting spaces, Rob, that we were getting into. Different equipment and boy did I lean on the manufacturers, the ones who would talk to me. Right. Cause that I was gonna ask too, because I you know, I I think back to my time in the buying group world and you know, the where I was, there was a you know, the residential groups existed. We stood up a commercial group while I was there. I remember one of the early conversations I had with the the team running the commercial group was, you know, about Like, hey, there's so much it it feels like there's so much synergy, especially when you're coming from residential and looking at what's possible in commercial and especially that that light commercial, resimercial as we love to call it. you know, between the products and the brands and things like that. But what I came to learn is that there is such a y if you flip the script and look at, you know, how commercial integrators, whether it's the manufacturers or the integrators themselves, kind of view residential, it's it's almost like this I don't want to be sort of like r you know, within the conversation of that, like they don't want to associate, right? they're not hate may be a strong word, but like they just it's almost like a looking down on the red like, did you feel that or do you feel that? And and what's it like navigating that? Yeah, and I've I think there's different levels of commercial there's all the bid spec. Mm-hmm. And the RFPs and the RFIs and GCs and all that. We play we played outside of all that. We were work really working with the decision makers or someone who worked under the decision maker who was looking for technology in the workspace. And so it really started out with small and medium meeting spaces. And this was before COVID and teams and Zoom and all that stuff were big, you know, kind of go back to the days of Polycom and Skype. But we didn't play in the big commercial for quite a long time until and I knew I knew better and I I always talked to bigger companies than me and learned from them as much as possible. Even at a cocktail hour, if I ran into like, you know, an AVI or some one of the bigger companies, I just would try to learn, right? Always be learning. And so there was a there was a lot of manufacturer support. And I'll give I'll give kudos to one. So Crestjohn was one of the early ones who really believed in us. And I don't I could get in trouble for sharing this. Maybe you'll edit this out, but I have shared this a couple of times. So and Crestron knows this. So I I've done Crestron since probably nineteen ninety-seven, nineteen ninety-eight as an integrator tech. And it's just I just was so passionate, but they wouldn't let me become a dealer. And it was mainly the rep firm here in Denver. Like you're too small, you're working out of your house, blah, blah, blah. So I was getting product out of state from another friend of mine. I would bring it in. And I took all the serial numbers off and I put them in binders for every single job. Wow. I did Rob, I did that for a year and a half, and then I made an Excel spreadsheet and I sent it to the rep firm on how much how many sales we've done. I didn't say who the dealer was, and I sent it to them, and that's how I became a dealer. Wow. I had been doing a hundred and thirty, hundred and forty thousand dollars dealer cost. Right. And they're like, okay, okay, this has gotta stop. Yeah, right. Like and it got their attention. I probably got in a little bit of trouble. But it was really

That's one of those th like if they're not gonna listen, make listen, right? Yep. I'm gonna get a call from John Clancy. But but I just believed in the brand so much 'cause I trusted it and I knew it. And then and they sub they really helped support me. so yeah, does that does that answer your question? I yeah. I mean it like it it takes Non-emotional purchase. It's it you're working with different people than a designer or a homeowner or a builder. It's someone who treats these rooms as mission critical. They're not paying for it, but they're responsible for it and they don't want the headaches. Yeah. Yeah. So you're t it's a very different type of client. but at the I mean, it kind of goes back to what you said earlier. Like your mission still applies to that, right? Because that you gotta get in there. understand what their needs are, what they're trying to accomplish, and then make it easy for them. Because at the end of the day, if you're not, you know, allowing them to come into the space, you know, I you know what you did behind the scenes, behind the walls, all that, you know, that that's fine. And if anything, you know, God forbid goes wrong, you're able to fix it. But y you know, you want it to be something where you can hand over the keys and not have to read the manuscript to them or you know, yeah, help them understand the book. They should just get it. And that applies regardless of whether it's residential or commercial. You know, you know Jeff and I like story time, so I'll give you a story. Can we do a story? Absolutely. Okay. So what one time we were doing government work and it was downtown Denver and my one of my family members brought me in to a project and we were going to retrofit some wires into this office space. And so it was me and a couple of guys and we're trying to run the wires And we couldn't get the wires in the wall. And we're like, what in the world? We were getting drill bits and sparks were flying, all this kind of stuff. Well, it turns out it was a skiff space. And so it's a classified room that had no Yeah. Which we do lots of those now, the right way. Yeah, right. But I had to I had to call some folks and be like, Hey, you know, what's a skiff space? What do you do? Once again, this is before, you know, internet was real big. And we had to learn what a skiff space was and how to run wire in there and the right way to do it and you know, Department of Defense stuff. and then you know, later on we got a work a project for the government of Canada and so we you know, we started doing these projects, but it really takes knowledge and training and doing things the right way. And if you guys ever hear me talk on anything Resi Marshall, I am all about making sure you have the right certifications and training before you do work. Right. I didn't always do that. And luckily I never got in any big trouble. Yeah. But Almost. You're a couple drill bits away through a wall. yeah. But that sh I mean, that goes to show too, like there is a you know, I know there's a lot of conversation too, especially as, you know, housing marsing market is what it is right now, and I know it's tough for a lot of people. So natural extension maybe of the residential integrator is to look like, hey, all right, like commercial might make sense and it's something I can you know, get into. And some may think it's as easy as just like snapping their finger and and doing it, but very clearly. You can't dabble in it. You if you want to do commercial, you know, you pick pick the low-hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit, I believe, is small dental offices where you have manufacturer support like a Sonos commercial who will help you heat map the speakers and design everything and run PoE speakers. Or a smaller medium meeting space. There's plenty of brands in the CDA channel and our channel here that will help you design these little systems. But if you're going to put something in like this, bring it into your office or even your home if you're working out of your home and try it. Play with it. What can it do? What can't it do? You know, USB C cable. I got a call yesterday from an IT firm and they're trying to run a USB C cable 30, 50 feet, and it it won't do video and control and and all that kind of stuff. You know, you can you can buy a an Apple Thunderbolt four cable or whatever it is for $170 and it's only six feet long. Yeah. There it's a special cable. And so how do you know that? You gotta try this product and you need to have the manufacturers help you with it. Yeah. So it's I mean, it's a different level of care. and again, I I mean Two the difference between I you mentioned it, but the that how like how you're gonna work with that client, you know, that there's one thing to have the emotional attachment to the home. When you're talking about an office space or you you know, whatever it is that you're going into on the commercial side, there is there's the person you're working with, but they have what, a team of who knows how many employees that are also gonna be touching this that you know, you have to think about how they're gonna engage with the space and and, you know, the I guess Troubleshoot ahead of time. Like think of what they what challenges they could face. Is it is that something you think about too? Yes. For sure. Yeah. So it's it's just a whole different world of like how you plan for what you're going to go in and have to accomplish. So it's I mean you're always gonna have challenges and surprises as a business owner or a leader. It's it's how do you act in that moment. I don't know if I shared this story with you, Rob, but you know, we we finished a three hundred thousand square foot MDU project. last year and our 40 person team can't cable a building that big. It's just not practical. We're not fast at it. And so we hired a partner that we'd work with for years and they even wired our offices here in Colorado. They went out of business the week we started the

project. And this this is a you know, I don't know, forty million dollar building and you're under a GC and they will charge you for every single day of delay. Yeah. And so they basically, you know, they built the building and then you wire from floor to floor to floor. And so we found a new company and contracted a new company in three days. And we actually didn't get back charged at all because we called the general contractor and we were honest with them and we told them exactly what happened and what we were going to do about it. That's crazy. And that's awesome, number one. Again, that's like a full circle moment of you know, just Right. But but yeah, that too. Like, how do you vet a company that quick to like what did you guys do? We we we sat down at an emergency team meeting at our company, got in like the war room situation, and it was who knows who and who can call whom. And we broke up as a group and made a whole bunch of calls, got back together. Okay, here's the three or four companies that said yes, you know, here's some that said no. I mean, who's gonna come do a job like that with barely a week's notice and put together the bid? It was hundreds of thousands of dollars and just cabling labor. That's wild. So yeah. Don't get in don't get into that kind of stuff until you These are the types of challenges that you know the types of things that could go wrong if you bite off more than you can chew. Yeah. But we you this was our sixth building. We've we've done a few before at this size, yeah, but little did we know that. that a trade would go out of the business in in the middle of it. Wow, that's unbelievable. crazy. But again, I love too the just again to weave through that narrative of like, yeah, y you went and talked to the the G C on the project and were just upfront and honest in how far that can get you. Tail between the legs. Yeah, right. Just sometimes you just gotta eat it. Right? That that right hook's gonna come and you just know it and go down to the mat. Like it just take it. They they were They were so grateful that we didn't try to hide this from them. Right. Right. They really were. They said most people don't tell us what's going on in their business or what's going on behind the scenes and we find out the hard way and that's what blows up projects and that's what loses trust. That i I mean, again, like I s I know I asked it earlier, but it seems so simple, but people don't do it, right? And is I mean, is it just a it you mentioned the kind of the mentors you've had and and the upbringing and that's and I mean, is that Is it a product of your nature or like is it something practiced over time? Like what do you I it's a tough question to ask, I know, but like what do you attribute that to? I think that to answer your first question, I think it is how I was raised and the mentors that I have. And the second thing is out of and with employees that have come and gone from our organization or the ones who are still there, they want to work for an organization that stands up to its word and has integrity or has their back. Maybe. Yeah. I mean years ago we had an executive from a big corporation. He w he would call us drunk on Friday nights and cuss and swear about whatever was going on in his life or his system or his network. And we didn't even do the network, Rob. But he was verbally abusive to our team. And so we fired him. And so I think people want to work for an organization like that. They want to work for leadership like that. Yeah. And I know that's something that you know. the the two conversations we've had post CDI around this session c I know it came up during it, but culture is a big part of it, right? Like developing that culture and I know we could have a whole separate episode discussion on what it what it's like building that culture. yeah I mean kind of a way of asking it like do you see that like the the opening openness and honesty with clients and and those you work with like I those types of conversations, I hard conversations that happen internally too. Like do you see it that way with like employee to employee? Yes. Yeah. Like our team knows we don't take every project that walks in the door. It is an interview process. And we also tell our clients that. Yeah. Right? If if someone calls and, you know, we need this done in two weeks and you know, we'll pay you whatever. If it's not a good fit, it's not gonna have good results. Last minute projects have Last minute results. I mean, they it's terrible. So we hire and fire. Since we were talking about core values, we hire and fire by our core values. People's quarterly and annual reviews are based on the eight core values. So let's do the right thing to live deliver legendary service and quality, honor commitments, be fanatic about response time, think about team first, which is a huge one. Like, am I putting myself first in a situation or am I putting others first? Like, you what? It's five o'clock. I'm not gonna label these wires. I'll I'll do it tomorrow. And then that technician doesn't come in that day or they go to a different job. And then another technician's like, dude, who didn't label all these wires? Right. So listen to understand. So when when we're in meetings, whether with customers or co-workers, are you talking over to each other? Are you interrupting? Have I interrupted you, Rob? I don't think so. Okay, I just want to make sure. I think we're good. So those core values. We put first and we talk about them often. No, that's awesome. And I this could I again, like I said, we could go an entire episode, maybe another question or two, but like developing AI. Yeah, right. That's just dive into the light stuff, you know? developing those, like what's that process like? 'Cause I ever anyone can, you know, slap some words on a wall or on a website, but like corporate cheese. Right? Just throw it up there. It'll s it's it might stick. But like is it the Swiss kind or are we

talking like Cooper Sharp? If you're from Philly, you know what that's all about. Cooper Sharp is the cheese. but like div sitting down and developing those. did you guys go through a process or like did you develop them as a team, or is it something that's evolved over time? Good question. So I think about three years ago, Rob, we we became an EOS company. So EOS is based based on a book called Traction. Mm-hmm. I would encourage you to read it. And it's really a framework and bumpers, accountability, and transparency as a business that gets top down. Like my vision, what's up in here, all the things, crazy things I want to do and accomplish, and how we're gonna do it, and the numbers we wanna hit and the goals and gets passed down to every department, every team, and they all have what's called rocks and goals, which are basically milestones. So like Rob, if you're like, ooh, I want to get my CTS from Avixa or my level one CDIA certification. Okay, Rob, let's make that a goal for you in 90 days. But my job as your leader is to help you accomplish that. People want career paths, not jobs. And so we're not perfect, but every quarter, each leader of every department meets with every person in that department and goes over a quick quarterly meeting. Like, how are we doing? How are you doing on your goals? There's usually two or three per quarter. And then how are we doing as a department? So when they get together, they're looking at those milestones and those goals and holding each other accountable to get that stuff done. That's how we do it. That has been a game changer. And you know what? We lost quite a few team members when we transitioned to that because interesting. People are like, what is this EOS thing? We don't like it. It seems like a bunch of rules. It's not rules. It's like Here's where we're going in five years, and here's how we're gonna get there. And in order to to achieve goals, last time I checked, you have to have accountability. Right. Right. It's it's one of those things where, you know, I I feel like with culture, depending on how you approach it, like it's a fine line, right? Like some people will look at it and say, like, hey, we're trying to do this, but you know, is it genuine? and people can tell when it's not. others, it it's harder to buy in because I maybe it's I it's like uncomfortable for them to like it's exposing, right? It's to have goals like have to think about how you, you know, state a goal or or think that far ahead and then, you know, break it down in terms of how you're gonna take the steps to get there. But you know, when done right, I I think there's so many examples and I I love these conversations because the ones that are doing it and doing it right and and clearly you guys like you guys are on that list, you know, they have real impact to the business. And it's not even just, you know, in the sense of like, you know, yes, the bottom line is better, but the team, you know, there's more buy-in and it

it actually creates I you said it, right? That like people aren't looking just for something to put on a resume. They want to feel like they belong somewhere. I I I think that's natural as humans, right? To get very philosophical. Like it's natural as humans to want to belong in a community, like where whether it's where you live or, you know, church communities, if that's you know, something you're into, like that, there's wanting to belong. And, you know, that applies to the job as well. and like the the career path you've chosen. so it's awesome. For me, culture or what's in it for us is such a different mentality. Right. Right. It's toxic. I another story time with Sean Hanson. We we did work years ago for a corporate client here in the Denver metro area. And you walked into their meeting rooms and they had like their vision and mission statement on the wall. And the employees would take their drinks and dump their drinks and the projectors. And they would like hit them and bash them. And they would basically damage all the stuff. They had such a toxic culture that when the doors were closed in the meeting spaces, they would like hit the TVs and grab them and like hit the sound bars and and they literally would take their lunch drinks, or if they were having a happy hour after work. And it's like, what is going on here? Like literally the the mission statement was in the room and there would be beer in the projector and we get a service call. And we eventually had to quit working for that company. I definitely won't say who it is. Right, right. And it just made me so sad. But it was the same company where the executive would call us drunk and be toxic to my team and yell at my finance person. And like I never want to work for a company like that, but I'd never want our team to work for a company like that. No, that's encouraging to hear. I think I like as someone that covers this this space is just like you you know it's out there. It's crazy. It's just like you know, I don't there's no I I don't understand the why of like how or why you could you know things could operate that way, but that's you know, for some people, but in terms of being successful and creating a culture of where you want to fit and belong and and realize some Awesome success and hey, at the same time get to install some pretty awesome systems and do some really cool work. you know, you guys are an awesome example and it's been fun to to kind of dive into it and learn about it, man. you know, I I feel like we could like we haven't touched on AI, so maybe we'll save that for a future episode to have you. I'll say this too, as a part as a part of EOS and Being transparent is important. And we're transparent with with numbers and financials too. So our team knows whether we suck or whether we don't. And we know they know when we're doing good and they know when we're not doing good. And we do share that. We share gross profit, we share revenue. I tell people if we're profitable, if we're not. Right. And that and it's it's their company. The fact is a lot of our team knows what I get paid. I mean, my my base salary. Like It's on it's under a hundred. Yeah. You know, if the company's doing well, I might do some distributions, but generally speaking, you know, we we are pretty transparent about that. And I want it to be their company. I want them I want to create a legacy company and not the Sean Hansen company, but I you know, something happens to me or like they can just keep it going. They they are there's no surprises, right? There's no skeletons in the closet. I all that does too to me is you know it it a lack of transparency just breeds sort of room for like, you know, rumor the rumor mill to spin. Like like how are we doing? And creates uncertainty. And then it just it feels very anti culture. So that's I I again I think another you know, it feels like table stakes in terms of having a good culture, but it to your point, I don't know how many people do it and the ones that are feels like they're they're the examples of like why you should and and there's Certainly I I know plenty out there, but to hear you talk about it I think you know, it's always important. 'cause, you know, it's easy to say and not say something, but to put those actions into words, all the cliches about going out there and doing, you know, walking the talk or talking walking the talk? You gotta walk the talk, right? You don't talk the walk. Yeah. I just I just wanna run. Yeah, there you go. Run with it. So no, I love it. Sean, this was A lot of fun and I wish we could keep going, but I I do want to be cognizant of people's time. there's some people sleeping right now. I know. Jeff, I know you're sleeping. His story time with Sean is a good one. Yeah, right. Jeff Jeff, we'll have to hit you just pour some whiskey into the cup for him and swirl it under his nose. He'll smell it. There you go. And that'll wake him up. No, th this was a lot of fun. definitely plan to have you back on, man. This was a good time to be able to catch up and lots to learn from you. So we appreciate it and Yeah, look forward to doing this again in the future. Yeah, and I'm I'm looking forward to getting a C D hat too. So there we go. We'll we'll make it happen. We can absolutely make it happen. Let's go. Do you like black, white, olive green? There's the olive green out there. Yeah, I'm looking at the olive green one. All right. We also got khaki. There's a khaki tan color too. So we get we get wild here with the hats. I'll tra I'll trade you hats. I'll send you a logic hat. You send me a C D that works. Sounds like a deal. Cool, man. Well we appreciate it. Thank you guys. Thanks for listening.