התמלול המלא של Resilient Souls: Navigating Grief with Courage and Community | Stewart Bogle (EP50)

from this conversation in regards to navigating grief. 01:59.575 --> 02:05.780 [SPEAKER_01]: So even if the topic of Christianity is one that you don't typically find yourself aligned with, maybe just pause and give it a listen. 02:06.080 --> 02:11.065 [SPEAKER_01]: Especially if you're going to a time that could benefit for some advice navigating grief illness and loss. 02:11.965 --> 02:21.553 [SPEAKER_01]: And then lastly, if you've yet to leave a rating or review for the clear intentions podcasts, pause the episode, it takes thirty seconds or less, and it is one of the best ways you can help the podcasts continue to gain visibility. 02:21.613 --> 02:24.216 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you so much in advance for those of you that have done this. 02:24.596 --> 02:26.618 [SPEAKER_01]: And for those of you that haven't yet, what are you waiting for? 02:26.638 --> 02:28.319 [SPEAKER_01]: Truly it takes thirty seconds or less. 02:28.659 --> 02:30.000 [SPEAKER_01]: but it is just so super helpful. 02:30.040 --> 02:30.961 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you, thank you. 02:31.962 --> 02:34.504 [SPEAKER_01]: And with that, let's get into this conversation with Stuart. 02:44.731 --> 02:48.394 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so right now it's seven thirty at night in Ohio. 02:48.694 --> 02:49.515 [SPEAKER_01]: What time is it for you? 02:49.975 --> 02:52.037 [SPEAKER_00]: We're nine o'clock in the morning on the other side of the world. 02:52.489 --> 02:54.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so good morning. 02:54.210 --> 02:57.992 [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully this goes well because I'm let the end of my day, but you're going to do most of the talking. 02:58.052 --> 02:58.653 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's going to go. 02:58.673 --> 03:00.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent. 03:00.374 --> 03:01.234 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about your book. 03:01.334 --> 03:02.355 [SPEAKER_01]: So you've written a book. 03:02.395 --> 03:04.556 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Learning to Dance in the Darkness. 03:05.016 --> 03:09.539 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot to dive into here, but can you take me back to the heart of that story? 03:10.019 --> 03:11.020 [SPEAKER_01]: What led you to write it? 03:11.420 --> 03:15.062 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess the second part of that question is what did you discover in the process? 03:16.273 --> 03:23.699 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, like everyone else, I was hoping for a great life that everything was going to work out and there was a moment in time when my world changed completely. 03:23.739 --> 03:30.644 [SPEAKER_00]: It was my wife walk through the door one day and I saw her look in her face that told me that our world was going to be very different. 03:31.104 --> 03:34.286 [SPEAKER_00]: She just been battling with her lump in her breast and so she 03:35.267 --> 03:40.449 [SPEAKER_00]: was being she'd been told it was just breastfeeding, a problem with breastfeeding and blocked milk duct and I was all fine. 03:40.629 --> 03:49.432 [SPEAKER_00]: So this went on for a few months until we finally went back and this was the time when she walked through the door and I realized that she'd been told that it wasn't just a blocked milk duct. 03:49.732 --> 03:58.756 [SPEAKER_00]: It was breast cancer and not just breast cancer was staged for metastatic, which for your listeners will mean may not know that that means it's spread to other parts of the body. 03:59.296 --> 04:02.277 [SPEAKER_00]: And so barring a miracle from God she was facing death. 04:03.209 --> 04:05.312 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we battled with that for a long, long time. 04:06.293 --> 04:13.542 [SPEAKER_00]: And so as I started to go through the journey myself for going, and what am I going to do if she does dive, if God doesn't step in and do the miracle we're all praying for. 04:14.383 --> 04:16.525 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I began to write and ask people for help. 04:16.625 --> 04:19.990 [SPEAKER_00]: And as I wrote, people would write back and say, hey, that's really encouraging. 04:20.170 --> 04:21.451 [SPEAKER_00]: You should think about writing a book. 04:22.112 --> 04:23.573 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the last thing on my mind. 04:24.154 --> 04:27.837 [SPEAKER_00]: But it actually meant I started to think about, where does this story go? 04:28.198 --> 04:29.739 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, where does the story end? 04:30.360 --> 04:32.502 [SPEAKER_00]: So somebody wants to ask me, how are you doing? 04:32.962 --> 04:38.407 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just afraid came out of my mouth that I'm learning to dance in the darkness, because life had been pretty tough. 04:38.748 --> 04:40.069 [SPEAKER_00]: And it went on for a long, long time. 04:40.730 --> 04:43.732 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was the beginning of that idea of writing something down. 04:44.313 --> 04:46.954 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was pretty triumphal at first, I am. 04:47.295 --> 04:50.957 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got these ways to encourage people that you can get through the toughest of times. 04:51.377 --> 04:54.459 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, my wife hadn't died yet, so it hadn't been the toughest of times. 04:55.179 --> 05:00.362 [SPEAKER_00]: But when she did die, and I had three young kids still after, that began a whole new journey as well. 05:01.002 --> 05:02.043 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was the start of it. 05:03.020 --> 05:08.122 [SPEAKER_00]: But what I didn't know is there was going to be a whole lot more traumas ahead, a whole lot more challenges. 05:08.682 --> 05:12.543 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there was a series of what I'd have to say were ridiculous challenges. 05:12.783 --> 05:14.563 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just kept feeling like I was going to break. 05:14.763 --> 05:17.444 [SPEAKER_00]: My legs would buckle under me and I'd go, can't face this again. 05:18.064 --> 05:29.988 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I wrote a book that started off probably triumphal, but then it became very real and very raw and very honest about my wrestles with God, about how sometimes you make plans in life and they don't work out. 05:30.388 --> 05:37.716 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's really

the essence of the book and that's why I wrote it not to waste the pain but not also to pretend I'm some expert that can tell everyone how to get through. 05:37.736 --> 05:41.901 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just my story of how I got through and how I wrestled with God in the darkest of times. 05:43.384 --> 05:52.031 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and now taking your story, which again, we can go into more depth there, but you have a community now that you have cultivated called resilient souls. 05:52.231 --> 05:57.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And this has become a movement to support children and families as they walk through grief, illness and loss. 05:58.496 --> 06:06.302 [SPEAKER_01]: When did it occur to you that your story had the power to help heal others and that you were the messenger of that message? 06:07.443 --> 06:15.765 [SPEAKER_00]: So as a few years ago, just before COVID when I realized that I felt this calling to become a writer and speaker, but I wasn't doing a lot of writing and speaking. 06:16.582 --> 06:19.283 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was because of the business of life and the pressures of life. 06:19.343 --> 06:21.043 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I was trying to work out how to do that. 06:21.123 --> 06:35.506 [SPEAKER_00]: And over the next couple of years, I decided to finish off this book that I'm a little embarrassed that tell everyone, took me about twenty years to write because I'd go through a new trauma and that would set me back and I'd wait and I'd put it off and then another chapter would come and another chapter. 06:35.586 --> 06:38.287 [SPEAKER_00]: So just a couple of years ago I finished the book. 06:39.127 --> 06:43.628 [SPEAKER_00]: But in finishing the book, I felt a reluctance to try to publish it, and I was wondering what that was all about. 06:44.068 --> 06:46.068 [SPEAKER_00]: And I realized that this is just my story. 06:46.688 --> 06:49.969 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my view of the world, my perspective on things, my view of God. 06:50.869 --> 06:52.590 [SPEAKER_00]: It's my story of how I got through. 06:53.010 --> 06:56.770 [SPEAKER_00]: And while that might encourage some people, that's just one person's view of things. 06:57.531 --> 07:03.512 [SPEAKER_00]: And that got me thinking, there's a whole lot of other people that have gone through things in life where they're learning to dance in the darkness themselves. 07:03.552 --> 07:04.712 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I became quite curious. 07:05.392 --> 07:06.873 [SPEAKER_00]: And I started to reach out to people. 07:07.393 --> 07:12.575 [SPEAKER_00]: And as I did that, this idea of amplifying their voices and putting a platform together for their stories came. 07:12.615 --> 07:13.936 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was really simple. 07:13.956 --> 07:16.237 [SPEAKER_00]: I just started out as a conversation. 07:16.737 --> 07:19.178 [SPEAKER_00]: This has happened to me and this is how I got through what about you. 07:19.198 --> 07:26.082 [SPEAKER_00]: And they tell stories of things that they face, to how their plans fell apart and how their worlds were in so much pain. 07:26.102 --> 07:29.283 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I began to hear things from like, wow, that's really wise. 07:29.423 --> 07:32.905 [SPEAKER_00]: And I even started to think about, oh, we should know that when I was going through my storm, 07:33.485 --> 07:37.310 [SPEAKER_00]: And so this idea of sharing collective wisdom of how others have got through. 07:37.350 --> 07:43.958 [SPEAKER_00]: And so my hope is that listeners would go, I don't really relate to Stuart because his story is very different and his ideas are very different. 07:43.998 --> 07:46.020 [SPEAKER_00]: But boy, I relate to that person, all this person. 07:46.441 --> 07:51.427 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we just started to share their stories and out of that, I started writing a blog where ideas would come about 07:51.967 --> 08:10.834 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you feel lonely during those difficult times or when you're confused or angry or when you're disappointed and so I began to take some of those themes and share that and now I've started getting feedback from people saying, ah, that the power of that interview with that person who said it was okay to get angry with God when things don't work out, they gave me permission. 08:11.275 --> 08:13.075 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was when, probably over the last couple of years. 08:13.095 --> 08:17.297 [SPEAKER_00]: So this has been going for a year and it's really been a wonderful experience for me. 08:18.120 --> 08:21.822 [SPEAKER_01]: When you are wrestling with God, what were some of the questions that you had? 08:21.862 --> 08:23.583 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess tell me more about that time. 08:23.603 --> 08:25.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's really dark. 08:25.024 --> 08:29.367 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that not everyone that is listening to this episode is necessarily a Christian. 08:29.407 --> 08:37.131 [SPEAKER_01]: But I still think that that insight of wrestling like everyone wrestles with the idea of a creator or what the universe could be doing. 08:37.211 --> 08:38.652 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll have you share some insight here. 08:39.540 --> 08:41.942 [SPEAKER_00]: I think most listeners would probably relate to this. 08:41.982 --> 08:56.653 [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you're a Christian or a person of faith or whatever, when it comes to these challenges in life, these deaths or breakdowns and relationships or serious illness, you hear people saying, I'm just praying for you, whether there are a person of faith or not. 08:56.733 --> 08:59.895 [SPEAKER_00]: So we turn to something because we need hope in the darkest of times. 09:00.515 --> 09:04.639 [SPEAKER_00]: And so my hope I'd already made a decision when I was an eighteen year old with no background in the church, 09:05.319 --> 09:07.381 [SPEAKER_00]: but I was going to put my faith in God. 09:07.821 --> 09:12.466 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I handed him my life and in exchange that said, I'll take your life and I said, use it

however you want. 09:12.486 --> 09:16.489 [SPEAKER_00]: I just had no idea that it was going to involve so many challenges. 09:17.170 --> 09:25.397 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when my wife got sick as a person of faith, I just cried out to God and I even gathered a whole stack of people from all over the world that said, we'll pray with you. 09:26.227 --> 09:29.790 [SPEAKER_00]: until I knew there were voices going up to this all-power for all-loving, all-kind God. 09:30.590 --> 09:35.614 [SPEAKER_00]: To pray that this mother, this wife, this young woman, would be saved from this suffering. 09:35.914 --> 09:40.678 [SPEAKER_00]: These children would be saved from the pain of losing their mum and so these are quite noble things, Azure. 09:40.958 --> 09:41.458 [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about it. 09:41.478 --> 09:43.320 [SPEAKER_00]: You can surely God's going to step in and fix that. 09:44.020 --> 09:45.582 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, God didn't step in and fix that. 09:45.662 --> 09:48.746 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would stand under the stars at night. 09:48.786 --> 09:52.651 [SPEAKER_00]: The kids who go to bed, my wife had had treatment and she was exhausted and so I'd be on my own. 09:52.671 --> 09:58.258 [SPEAKER_00]: And I used to like this candle in this little lamp and I'd sit outside under the stars and look up and I'd say God. 09:59.333 --> 10:00.414 [SPEAKER_00]: can you step in please? 10:01.074 --> 10:01.635 [SPEAKER_00]: I beg you. 10:02.495 --> 10:05.878 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I began to pray this prayer and I believe God can do that. 10:05.898 --> 10:09.621 [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen God do amazing things and we'd get bad news. 10:09.941 --> 10:10.782 [SPEAKER_00]: There'd be setbacks. 10:11.122 --> 10:12.163 [SPEAKER_00]: There'd be a loss of hope. 10:12.383 --> 10:13.944 [SPEAKER_00]: There'd be fears. 10:13.984 --> 10:14.785 [SPEAKER_00]: There'd be confusion. 10:14.805 --> 10:15.726 [SPEAKER_00]: There'd be disappointment. 10:16.186 --> 10:18.248 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just decided I'm going to talk to God about these things. 10:18.268 --> 10:19.308 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to sugarcoat this. 10:19.348 --> 10:20.850 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say, God, I'm really upset. 10:20.990 --> 10:21.830 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really not happy. 10:22.030 --> 10:23.011 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really disappointed. 10:23.071 --> 10:23.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Come on. 10:24.426 --> 10:31.510 [SPEAKER_00]: And I sort of found a great comfort in, there's a section in the Bible that God of Gethsemane, where Jesus is about to go and be crucified. 10:31.550 --> 10:39.454 [SPEAKER_00]: And He says to His Father, just like me under the stars, He says, Father, I don't want to go through this, please, take this suffering away from me, please. 10:40.035 --> 10:42.196 [SPEAKER_00]: And He finishes with yet not my will, yours, be done. 10:42.216 --> 10:45.658 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was my prayer every night going, God, this is on begging you. 10:46.569 --> 10:48.029 [SPEAKER_00]: yet not my will

yours be done. 10:48.549 --> 10:50.330 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm asking you for the miracle of healing. 10:50.350 --> 10:59.692 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're not gonna do that for some reason, which I don't understand, then I'm asking you for the miracle of courage that I can have the courage to face this and not turn away from you or blame you. 11:00.252 --> 11:05.794 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got the courage to be a single dad and not to become a victim of my circumstances. 11:05.834 --> 11:07.414 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's how I wrestled. 11:07.794 --> 11:10.035 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what got me through, but I wasn't afraid to wrestle day. 11:10.055 --> 11:13.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's really important that people don't sugarcoat things and say it's all gonna be great. 11:13.836 --> 11:14.316 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm gonna be, 11:14.936 --> 11:19.458 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, really strong as a result of this and the kids' love, you know, muscular soul was because of this. 11:19.698 --> 11:21.099 [SPEAKER_00]: It didn't want to put a spin on it. 11:21.119 --> 11:24.040 [SPEAKER_01]: I like that you said that that I didn't want to put a spin on it. 11:24.240 --> 11:26.741 [SPEAKER_01]: I recently wrote a book by Glenn Pakiem. 11:26.801 --> 11:28.362 [SPEAKER_01]: It's called What's a Christian anyway. 11:29.122 --> 11:34.965 [SPEAKER_01]: And he talks about how sometimes we have seasons where we're the metaphors. 11:35.005 --> 11:38.487 [SPEAKER_01]: If you're faith is you just rowing this boat until the end of your 11:39.107 --> 11:44.811 [SPEAKER_01]: Until the end of your race, you're rowing and he said, it's okay to put down your ears, just don't get outside of the boat. 11:45.111 --> 11:47.653 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, it sounds like that's what you did. 11:47.713 --> 11:49.053 [SPEAKER_01]: You needed to set those down. 11:49.234 --> 11:50.034 [SPEAKER_01]: You needed answers. 11:50.094 --> 11:52.356 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is the other thing we so often go to God. 11:52.416 --> 11:58.159 [SPEAKER_01]: I've said this recently as well, but we go to God with our desires, our aspirations, our hopes. 11:58.720 --> 12:03.903 [SPEAKER_01]: But very often, we'll not take the time to listen to what God is to us. 12:04.083 --> 12:06.705 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's in that listening that we do get some perspective. 12:07.065 --> 12:11.969 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think the hard thing is when we are listening and we feel like we're not receiving answers that we want. 12:11.989 --> 12:12.149 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 12:12.710 --> 12:12.910 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 12:13.631 --> 12:15.472 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a great challenge. 12:16.113 --> 12:21.097 [SPEAKER_00]: We have a view of God that he's out there somewhere, but he loves us and so he's going to step in. 12:21.497 --> 12:22.758 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we long faced his voice. 12:22.798 --> 12:26.842 [SPEAKER_00]: We long faced arms wrapped around us and to be honest, I didn't hear his voice. 12:27.562 --> 12:32.564 [SPEAKER_00]: I needed a gob with skin on and sometimes I'd look up at the stars and I'd say, where are you God? 12:33.144 --> 12:41.708 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember a moment in time and again, I don't want this to sound too strong for, but I went, I was crying and I was, we're really right at the end here. 12:41.728 --> 12:46.910 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just so brutal, we were going through all what we were facing and watching my kids suffer and my wife suffer. 12:47.816 --> 12:50.379 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember having tears in my eyes and going, where are you? 12:50.399 --> 12:51.700 [SPEAKER_00]: I just need you. 12:51.720 --> 12:53.262 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I had this thought. 12:53.842 --> 13:02.311 [SPEAKER_00]: God had turned up in so many ways through so many people, people dropping off meals, people taking the kids to school, people being there for us. 13:02.351 --> 13:04.353 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I did have a God with skin on. 13:04.373 --> 13:09.838 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was looking for a God who would speak in a deep voice from the heavens and tell me he was going to step in in the living the hour. 13:10.519 --> 13:16.921 [SPEAKER_00]: So it is a decision, but I do like that idea of putting your ears in them and just not getting out of the boat. 13:16.961 --> 13:20.561 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what the Bible talks about in parts of the Bible. 13:20.601 --> 13:23.042 [SPEAKER_00]: It talks about lamenting the Psalms and lamentations. 13:23.082 --> 13:27.843 [SPEAKER_00]: It says, it's okay to cry out to God to be disappointed with God to say you've let me down. 13:28.283 --> 13:31.604 [SPEAKER_00]: But just don't walk away because you don't see what God's doing. 13:31.804 --> 13:33.404 [SPEAKER_00]: You don't see how he's carrying you. 13:33.944 --> 13:36.505 [SPEAKER_00]: Now sometimes I want to God that's more active too. 13:36.685 --> 13:37.665 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't just carry me. 13:37.725 --> 13:39.906 [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't just comfort me, but actually rescues me. 13:40.606 --> 13:43.634 [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not the way it works out for many people, so we've got to work out. 13:43.714 --> 13:47.103 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we keep going without shaking our fist to God and turning away? 13:48.964 --> 13:57.830 [SPEAKER_01]: There was a moment, fifteen years ago, where I didn't necessarily struggle with doubt, but maybe it did pop in from time to time. 13:58.411 --> 14:07.498 [SPEAKER_01]: But we had someone in our small group whose husband had had, I don't really know how to describe it, just he needed to go away for a while because he had the mental break. 14:07.878 --> 14:11.240 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, it just seems like, wow, he has two young girls. 14:11.260 --> 14:13.122 [SPEAKER_01]: I cannot believe all this is going on. 14:13.182 --> 14:14.623 [SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe this for my friend. 14:14.663 --> 14:15.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Her life is going to look different. 14:16.364 --> 14:17.445 [SPEAKER_01]:

forever at this point. 14:18.326 --> 14:23.109 [SPEAKER_01]: And I went to a prayer night at her house, nearly like forty of us there. 14:23.129 --> 14:27.433 [SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't really want to pray. 14:27.513 --> 14:28.254 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I don't know. 14:28.314 --> 14:29.274 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this all stupid? 14:29.374 --> 14:30.675 [SPEAKER_01]: Is this going to really change it? 14:31.276 --> 14:32.757 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just watched people. 14:32.937 --> 14:36.820 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of closing my eyes, I just observed people around the room and watched them. 14:37.341 --> 14:43.085 [SPEAKER_01]: And for some reason, well, not for some reason, I know why it was their faith in what they were doing. 14:43.125 --> 14:44.967 [SPEAKER_01]: They wholeheartedly believed. 14:45.387 --> 14:54.734 [SPEAKER_01]: that their words, their prayers were going to, whether or not he was better and healed, that it was going to give them peace. 14:54.794 --> 14:57.696 [SPEAKER_01]: It was going to give her peace and she was grateful for them to be there. 14:57.736 --> 15:02.059 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was this whole like harmonious union of, of relationship. 15:02.119 --> 15:02.399 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. 15:02.459 --> 15:05.221 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just so beautiful and I was like, that solidifies my faith. 15:05.401 --> 15:09.264 [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know why this stuff happened to this man, but I'm like, I don't know. 15:09.324 --> 15:12.546 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a good thing that comes to me that makes me believe more 15:13.369 --> 15:25.332 [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess that's a piece that I have, I know that sounds horrible that I'm like, oh, I have a piece when bad things happen to other people because they're not necessarily affecting me personally, but I'm my fate is grown in other people's faith. 15:25.752 --> 15:26.312 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm exactly. 15:26.732 --> 15:27.832 [SPEAKER_00]: It absolutely makes sense. 15:27.952 --> 15:31.093 [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a whole lot of good that can come out of suffering though. 15:31.473 --> 15:32.953 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to learn it some other way. 15:32.973 --> 15:34.654 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is a piece is a 15:35.394 --> 15:38.995 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, that's an interesting point because I was preaching at a church. 15:39.935 --> 15:46.397 [SPEAKER_00]: Way back when my wife first got diagnosed and I just preached this sermon about a piece that transcends all understanding. 15:46.877 --> 15:52.698 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd said it doesn't seem to make sense, but there is a piece that can come in the middle of a storm. 15:52.998 --> 15:55.259 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was talking from principle and not practice. 15:55.639 --> 15:58.580 [SPEAKER_00]: And I was actually referring to September eleven because it was at the time. 15:59.340 --> 16:07.430 [SPEAKER_00]: and a friend of mine who sounded been diagnosed with a brain tumour and so I was able to talk about what it is to know peace in a world that's incomplete turmoil. 16:08.011 --> 16:18.223 [SPEAKER_00]: But it was only a few weeks later that my wife got diagnosed with her cancer and I began to think about what is this like in practice then and so that became a journey for me about 16:19.004 --> 16:20.844 [SPEAKER_00]: What does peace look like in the storm? 16:20.884 --> 16:28.926 [SPEAKER_00]: And this person in Philippians says, there's a peace that transcends all understanding that will guard your hearts and your minds. 16:29.546 --> 16:39.608 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing that got me because I watch my wife and she would cry because of the pain of not being there for a daughter's wedding or not seeing her, her little baby going to school. 16:40.148 --> 16:43.849 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she would go to bed exhausted with the emotion she'd expanded. 16:44.812 --> 16:46.973 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be sitting there thinking a million thoughts in my head. 16:46.993 --> 16:51.374 [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't sleep because I was feeling my fears and my grief in my head. 16:51.454 --> 16:52.474 [SPEAKER_00]: She was feeling in her heart. 16:52.534 --> 16:57.635 [SPEAKER_00]: And here's this verse that says, there's a piece that comes from God, not from you, but comes from God. 16:58.415 --> 16:59.615 [SPEAKER_00]: They guard your heart. 16:59.936 --> 17:01.396 [SPEAKER_00]: That's your emotions or your mind. 17:01.436 --> 17:02.456 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the racing thoughts. 17:02.476 --> 17:03.977 [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought this is really practical. 17:04.437 --> 17:05.237 [SPEAKER_00]: So rather than this, 17:06.105 --> 17:10.168 [SPEAKER_00]: This faith, it's got all this, I don't know, jargon around and carries on a little bit. 17:10.388 --> 17:13.790 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a real grounded faith written by a guy who was imprisoned at the time. 17:13.810 --> 17:17.112 [SPEAKER_00]: So you go, that's why I'm a man of faith, not because it all works out. 17:17.393 --> 17:21.715 [SPEAKER_00]: It's because I chose to follow God and he's never abandoned me. 17:21.796 --> 17:25.558 [SPEAKER_00]: He just hasn't always stepped in the way I would have liked and all powerful God to step in. 17:25.578 --> 17:32.383 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's history, that's just, that's the Bible, that's the stories of life and whether you're a Christian or not listening to this. 17:33.023 --> 17:40.332 [SPEAKER_00]: The God of this universe that I believe in loves you and he's present with you in the most painful times, whether that's a marriage breakdown, a mental illness, something with your children. 17:40.832 --> 17:44.777 [SPEAKER_00]: We need to have hope in the midst of that, and that's what I had throughout the whole journey. 17:46.425 --> 17:53.947 [SPEAKER_01]: So the people that are listening, the Aunt Christians, let's try and speak to those people as well here with this advice. 17:54.147 --> 17:57.988 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just curious on some practicals on how to stay resilient. 17:58.388 --> 18:07.231

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's really the heart of this whole thing that I'm doing with the resilience, souls is starting a community that says, how do you build a resilience no matter what you're going through? 18:07.691 --> 18:10.452 [SPEAKER_00]: And some of that collective wisdom is coming out from these conversations. 18:10.492 --> 18:15.033 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I say to people, one of the most important things to do is not isolate yourself. 18:15.791 --> 18:19.012 [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you don't try to do this journey or whatever you're going through on your own. 18:19.532 --> 18:23.274 [SPEAKER_00]: And that sometimes can be hard because you're waiting for people to step in and be there for you. 18:23.714 --> 18:26.975 [SPEAKER_00]: But I've found that a lot of my guests have found people let you down. 18:26.995 --> 18:28.556 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't mean to, but they let you down. 18:29.136 --> 18:31.797 [SPEAKER_00]: And so sometimes you've got actually helped them. 18:32.217 --> 18:33.097 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to guide them. 18:33.117 --> 18:35.458 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got to say, this is what I need right now. 18:35.638 --> 18:37.919 [SPEAKER_00]: And what I need today is different to what I need tomorrow. 18:38.579 --> 18:43.780 [SPEAKER_00]: And so being able to be clear with people and to ask for help, that's really important. 18:44.180 --> 18:46.221 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say also go easy on yourself. 18:46.561 --> 18:48.501 [SPEAKER_00]: You might be feeling all over the place. 18:49.082 --> 18:50.802 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's natural and that's normal. 18:50.842 --> 18:52.122 [SPEAKER_00]: So just take it easy on yourself. 18:52.142 --> 18:53.943 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no need to be a hero for everyone else. 18:53.963 --> 18:57.904 [SPEAKER_00]: You can have really bad days, really dark days, really dark thoughts. 18:58.044 --> 18:58.624 [SPEAKER_00]: That's okay. 18:59.595 --> 19:02.337 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say, make sure that you're getting help. 19:02.637 --> 19:06.941 [SPEAKER_00]: And that might be getting a therapist that you can go and speak to and just say, this is what I'm going through. 19:07.321 --> 19:15.887 [SPEAKER_00]: That can sometimes be really helpful because it normalizes what you're going through, that you're not crazy, that you're going through stuff that's very normal under trauma. 19:16.408 --> 19:18.049 [SPEAKER_00]: Trauma and grief, they do things too. 19:18.089 --> 19:18.890 [SPEAKER_00]: That's really hard. 19:18.930 --> 19:21.872 [SPEAKER_00]: If you're never had experience in it, you go, what is going on? 19:22.392 --> 19:26.695 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you think you're having a heart attack because there's tension in your chest and so getting some help. 19:26.796 --> 19:28.197 [SPEAKER_00]: That's very, very important. 19:28.897 --> 19:30.619 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say it takes some practical steps too. 19:31.159 --> 19:33.742 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I love to do is I love to journal. 19:34.643 --> 19:37.146 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was a practice I started where I just wrote my thoughts down. 19:37.506 --> 19:40.509 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was this private little place where I just would write down what I'm going through. 19:40.549 --> 19:42.812 [SPEAKER_00]: Things I didn't feel comfortable sharing with anyone else. 19:43.312 --> 19:48.197 [SPEAKER_00]: But in my journal, it took the power out of what was going on in my head by putting it down into paper. 19:49.177 --> 19:57.385 [SPEAKER_00]: some people walk and just get out and so I need sunshine on my face because the temptation is to stay in bed and to go, I just don't feel like getting up. 19:57.966 --> 20:00.028 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, feelings are real, but they're not very reliable. 20:00.468 --> 20:02.250 [SPEAKER_00]: So sometimes you've got to go opposite action. 20:02.690 --> 20:11.859 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to get out and let the sunshine cause that can send a little message to your body that says, the sun is coming out again and again and again and there is a future here. 20:12.580 --> 20:14.363 [SPEAKER_00]: One of my guests said, plant a garden. 20:14.703 --> 20:19.871 [SPEAKER_00]: Everything else in my life felt like I was dying, but to be able to watch something grow gave me hope. 20:20.231 --> 20:21.714 [SPEAKER_00]: So these are just some of the suggestions. 20:22.214 --> 20:26.621 [SPEAKER_00]: And to listen to some of things like this podcast because when you hear the stories about this, you go, ah! 20:27.522 --> 20:28.142 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not alone. 20:28.543 --> 20:36.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Others have gone through this and not only that, they have got through this and they're living a life that's worth living now when I can't see any hope for the future. 20:36.588 --> 20:49.678 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of those practical things I think we all need to do because going through dark times, going through troubles is very common, very painful and I can just completely make us feel like we're living inside a washing machine and just don't know how to get out. 20:50.333 --> 20:51.073 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 20:51.093 --> 20:56.615 [SPEAKER_01]: I have lost grandparents, but they lived long, healthy lives for the most part. 20:57.235 --> 21:02.577 [SPEAKER_01]: So I've never grieved in that way where it's just kind of abrupt and it takes me by storm. 21:03.038 --> 21:09.640 [SPEAKER_01]: But all that to say, I guess my advice from a place of not necessarily knowing would be that they don't want that for you either. 21:09.860 --> 21:17.903 [SPEAKER_01]: Like they don't, your wife wouldn't want you to stop living the life that you've been given, because you still have a racer on, you still have 21:18.443 --> 21:19.424 [SPEAKER_01]: days left here. 21:19.444 --> 21:25.628 [SPEAKER_01]: And if we are someone that believes our days are numbered and the Lord knows that that time, it's like you do still have time here. 21:25.648 --> 21:27.209 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to

say live it to the fullest. 21:27.229 --> 21:31.552 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean that, but I mean live it to the fullest in in way life. 21:31.652 --> 21:34.514 [SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget honor the memory, but I don't know. 21:34.534 --> 21:39.737 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that is that really truly from someone that has gone through this deep loss? 21:39.817 --> 21:42.019 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that insensitive for me to say? 21:42.726 --> 21:44.507 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's actually, it's real. 21:44.687 --> 21:45.307 [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. 21:45.707 --> 21:52.589 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just hard sometimes when you're riding the middle of it and you've just lost someone and someone says, you know, the sun's going to come out again, it's all going to be okay. 21:52.929 --> 21:54.390 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, there might be some truth to that. 21:54.930 --> 21:59.812 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'd say, be really sensitive in saying that to someone who's going through some immediate loss. 22:00.512 --> 22:02.933 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'd say that I just want to expand it a little bit that 22:03.513 --> 22:06.395 [SPEAKER_00]: The idea of trauma and grief is just not around death. 22:06.815 --> 22:08.236 [SPEAKER_00]: You can actually lose some dreams. 22:08.756 --> 22:13.099 [SPEAKER_00]: Your dreams can die because a business crash that you put all your hopes into. 22:13.119 --> 22:16.601 [SPEAKER_00]: Your kids are not turning out the way you'd hoped when they were born. 22:16.621 --> 22:19.143 [SPEAKER_00]: This is what it's going to be like as a family and it's not at all. 22:19.623 --> 22:21.785 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole series of things that we can go through. 22:22.645 --> 22:23.586 [SPEAKER_00]: But there is a way through. 22:24.306 --> 22:30.169 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say to people, be careful thinking there's a way around because there's almost no way around some of these things that we face in life. 22:30.189 --> 22:31.109 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a way through. 22:31.830 --> 22:39.153 [SPEAKER_00]: And learning to reimagine our future is very important because it may not be the future during that you had it. 22:39.193 --> 22:40.494 [SPEAKER_00]: May not be what you expected. 22:40.974 --> 22:44.316 [SPEAKER_00]: But learning to reimagine is very, very helpful to go through. 22:44.516 --> 22:46.277 [SPEAKER_00]: There is going to be a different version. 22:46.317 --> 22:49.859 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not planned B, but it's going to be different than the plan A that I first had. 22:50.439 --> 22:51.339 [SPEAKER_00]: But there is a way through. 22:51.359 --> 22:53.140 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I think it's important. 22:53.240 --> 22:59.563 [SPEAKER_00]: I like to talk to my guests and say to them beforehand, what I don't want to do is have a story that just says, everything's going to be great. 23:00.064 --> 23:01.844 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's all great, because it's not. 23:02.505 --> 23:03.565 [SPEAKER_00]: But it is going to be different. 23:04.206 --> 23:13.390 [SPEAKER_00]: And

it's embracing that difference and knowing that it's fantastic to have plans that will somebody once told me, really important to write those plans in pencil because things happen. 23:13.950 --> 23:20.897 [SPEAKER_00]: that we don't choose, that we don't want, that chains those plans, but that doesn't mean that it can't be a life that's worth living and can't bring great joy. 23:20.917 --> 23:26.662 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's also one thing I'd say is, for the person who's suffering, the person who's in great pain. 23:27.581 --> 23:29.822 [SPEAKER_00]: There will be days ahead when they'll be joy again. 23:30.362 --> 23:38.105 [SPEAKER_00]: But that first time they laugh, they catch themselves laughing and after a death of someone or something serious, you can feel really guilty with that too, go, I shouldn't be enjoying myself. 23:38.965 --> 23:42.966 [SPEAKER_00]: But in the case of death, that person that you've lost, they want you to be happy too. 23:43.226 --> 23:47.828 [SPEAKER_00]: They'd want you to get on with life and know that there's going to be this holding your life. 23:47.908 --> 23:49.449 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always there because then I longer there. 23:49.909 --> 23:53.150 [SPEAKER_00]: But that doesn't mean there aren't other things that can bring your joy, hope and happiness. 23:53.714 --> 23:59.858 [SPEAKER_01]: There's always going to be that void because, again, for the believer, we know that God never wanted death. 23:59.918 --> 24:01.459 [SPEAKER_01]: That wasn't part of the original plan. 24:01.519 --> 24:02.900 [SPEAKER_01]: God hates that there's death. 24:03.440 --> 24:06.122 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it is unnatural and it is horrible. 24:06.582 --> 24:07.363 [SPEAKER_01]: And we should we. 24:07.583 --> 24:13.507 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that'll always stay with us, but it starts to just, it has these legs, but they just get a little bit thinner, right? 24:13.727 --> 24:14.427 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree. 24:14.467 --> 24:16.309 [SPEAKER_00]: I think grape is always with us. 24:17.149 --> 24:18.191 [SPEAKER_00]: But we learn to carry it. 24:18.331 --> 24:20.093 [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't leave us. 24:20.173 --> 24:20.894 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not going on. 24:20.934 --> 24:22.616 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we get triggered. 24:22.877 --> 24:25.040 [SPEAKER_00]: It might be a song that's eased down the track. 24:25.060 --> 24:28.124 [SPEAKER_00]: Here is a song in suddenly but tears in your eyes going, oh, what's that all about? 24:28.564 --> 24:30.647 [SPEAKER_00]: Or some feeling or a smell or something? 24:31.208 --> 24:32.149 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be a mother's day. 24:32.229 --> 24:34.132 [SPEAKER_00]: We just had mothers day here in Australia the other day. 24:35.078 --> 24:36.179 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a lot of pain. 24:36.219 --> 24:38.442 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got my own situation. 24:38.502 --> 24:41.064 [SPEAKER_00]: My mum's now in a nursing home with dementia. 24:41.184 --> 24:42.686 [SPEAKER_00]: That's an enormous loss for me. 24:43.247 --> 24:49.693 [SPEAKER_00]: Then I look at my kids and they're trying to remember their mum and for my little assone, he's not little anymore. 24:49.713 --> 24:52.376 [SPEAKER_00]: He's twenty-four, but he was really little at the time and he's mum passed away. 24:52.436 --> 24:54.258 [SPEAKER_00]: So his memory is a different than the other kids. 24:55.179 --> 25:08.086 [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many things that can trigger us too, but it's learning to carry grief and not trying to deny it, not trying to suppress it or not trying to pretend we've got through it and now it's all good because it is shaped as it just doesn't have to define us. 25:14.814 --> 25:23.224 [SPEAKER_01]: So one part of your community that I really have appreciated seeing is how to equip different generations to have these rich conversations. 25:23.284 --> 25:29.092 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you just want to give a few words here as we start to wrap up on what that might look like of having these conversations. 25:29.756 --> 25:33.501 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the areas that's become really important to me, goes back to being a school teacher. 25:33.941 --> 25:45.255 [SPEAKER_00]: When you're a school teacher, you have families that suddenly are going through things, you know, over the years of being a teacher, there were families that went through car accidents where someone died and children were traumatised for that experience. 25:46.027 --> 25:51.074 [SPEAKER_00]: or where a marriage breaks down and suddenly we've got kids at school who are feeling all sorts of pain. 25:51.835 --> 25:56.401 [SPEAKER_00]: No matter what it is, there's a ripple effect in our trauma and our loss and our grief. 25:57.222 --> 26:00.366 [SPEAKER_00]: And so my heart for the young people is very strong. 26:00.686 --> 26:03.890 [SPEAKER_00]: And I began even in some of the interviews, I interviewed a parent about their journey. 26:04.471 --> 26:07.333 [SPEAKER_00]: But it made me curious about what the children would have been going through. 26:07.373 --> 26:14.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And so some of these people introduced me to their children and I interviewed the children as young adults, saying, take me back. 26:14.437 --> 26:18.079 [SPEAKER_00]: What was it like when you were a young child and your mother was sick? 26:18.600 --> 26:20.881 [SPEAKER_00]: What was it like at a funeral when you were a six year old? 26:21.341 --> 26:25.044 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we began to look at that perspective and that's led me to think about 26:25.904 --> 26:27.825 [SPEAKER_00]: How difficult it is to have conversations. 26:27.906 --> 26:36.432 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, someone we both know I am talked to recently about some bad news ever received and I asked them what it was going to be like to have that conversation with the daughter. 26:37.420 --> 26:41.463 [SPEAKER_00]: and tears weld up because the person said, they're not sure what to say. 26:41.963 --> 26:46.686 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's the

collective wisdom that we're gathering when I've talked to people saying, what did you tell your kids? 26:47.206 --> 26:48.787 [SPEAKER_00]: How did you help your kids navigate this? 26:48.967 --> 26:50.749 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's become very important to me. 26:51.069 --> 26:55.212 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's growing into how do we help equip teachers? 26:55.252 --> 27:03.157 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I interviewed someone recently and I went back to, I was their school teacher of their child when they just had this terrible accident. 27:03.877 --> 27:06.279 [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember thinking, was I good? 27:06.419 --> 27:06.999 [SPEAKER_00]: Did I help them? 27:07.019 --> 27:07.860 [SPEAKER_00]: Did I know what to do? 27:08.380 --> 27:11.542 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I asked, I said, take your mind back twenty five years. 27:12.463 --> 27:14.684 [SPEAKER_00]: And can you remember what we were like as a school? 27:15.405 --> 27:22.830 [SPEAKER_00]: And it made me realize that teachers aren't always equipped to know how to handle this griefener in a child or these. 27:23.570 --> 27:26.192 [SPEAKER_00]: changes in a child because of what's happening in their life at home. 27:26.852 --> 27:35.719 [SPEAKER_00]: So to think about how do we help develop an empathy and an understanding in some skills and teachers that can support parents who are going through real traumas at home? 27:36.339 --> 27:39.442 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we help parents who don't have conversations with children? 27:40.142 --> 27:41.443 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're putting together now. 27:41.523 --> 27:42.804 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the focus going forward. 27:43.224 --> 27:49.888 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited about that because I know how important that would have been for me as a young school teacher who just didn't have any experience. 27:50.449 --> 27:58.594 [SPEAKER_00]: Or for me as a friend of other parents in the classroom helping me to have conversations with my children to say, this is what the family's going through. 27:58.934 --> 28:07.139 [SPEAKER_00]: So we need to be careful about what we say, we need to be kind and all that we do, just building that empathy and the skills that's beyond just feeling pain for them. 28:07.900 --> 28:09.521 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because so many of us 28:10.723 --> 28:11.183 [SPEAKER_01]: What do they say? 28:11.223 --> 28:17.486 [SPEAKER_01]: The best thing to say sometimes is nothing, just to be present and sit with someone, but also sometimes people need to hear from you. 28:17.886 --> 28:22.569 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry, while that can be significant, sometimes they need a little bit more. 28:22.669 --> 28:27.971 [SPEAKER_01]: So knowing how to communicate is so important, but like you said, a lot of us haven't been through that. 28:27.991 --> 28:31.253 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't mean we can't learn how to do so. 28:32.509 --> 28:40.072 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's that skills-based approach, which goes, there are some things that you can say that can really help and there are things that you can say that are going to be very unhelpful. 28:40.552 --> 28:55.837 [SPEAKER_00]: I was speaking at our principles conference a few weeks ago and we were sitting around talking and somebody said to me, I haven't had any real experience of pain myself and yet I have so many parents that are coming to my office going through unbelievable traumas and I feel bad about saying, I know what you're going through. 28:56.377 --> 28:56.957 [SPEAKER_00]: because I don't. 28:56.977 --> 29:01.759 [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, great, so let's talk about the language we could use that doesn't pretend we know what they're going through. 29:02.019 --> 29:03.339 [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't minimise their pain. 29:03.840 --> 29:08.161 [SPEAKER_00]: And I couldn't believe how excited those principles were to discuss this going. 29:08.221 --> 29:09.161 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd give me some language. 29:09.221 --> 29:12.202 [SPEAKER_00]: Give me some ways that I'm not going to cause pain to someone. 29:12.502 --> 29:15.844 [SPEAKER_00]: So those practical things are going to be very important going forward. 29:15.864 --> 29:19.645 [SPEAKER_00]: They're not my ideas because I have a personality and limited experience. 29:20.165 --> 29:35.916 [SPEAKER_00]: and so it's the ideas of many and that's why I'm calling this the collective wisdom series because there's a collective wisdom when you start to talk to a range of people and you pick up ideas and it's going to be really practical and really helpful because we're living in a world you know you've got young kids I've got family 29:36.762 --> 29:40.727 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm now in a step-parenting situation to have remarried and got some step-to-step kids. 29:41.248 --> 29:44.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's a whole lot of challenges in that and I look around and go, well, who can I learn from? 29:45.153 --> 29:52.502 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we're trying to do is learn from each other to encourage each other and to give some practical tips that will help us navigate life. 30:01.928 --> 30:04.549 [SPEAKER_01]: the title of your memoir, learning to dance in the darkness. 30:04.589 --> 30:10.170 [SPEAKER_01]: You said you had said that phrase at one point, but I guess what did it look like to dance? 30:10.210 --> 30:12.911 [SPEAKER_01]: Like when you're thinking about dancing, it is this joyous here. 30:12.931 --> 30:16.632 [SPEAKER_01]: In a way free, do you have a freedom about you? 30:17.072 --> 30:21.173 [SPEAKER_01]: What was your dance that you were doing that took you out of the darkness? 30:21.967 --> 30:23.048 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it was a shuffle. 30:23.288 --> 30:27.112 [SPEAKER_00]: It was sometimes the success each day for me was just getting on the dance floor again. 30:27.212 --> 30:29.194 [SPEAKER_00]: So the metaphor was just getting on with life. 30:29.834 --> 30:33.638 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I did very early on decide, I'm getting on with life.

30:34.138 --> 30:38.042 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm going to not pretend that I'm not in a lot of pain. 30:38.082 --> 30:41.245 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not confused, but I need to get on one to help my kids. 30:41.265 --> 30:44.207 [SPEAKER_00]: They were very young at school and I decided not to go back to work. 30:44.248 --> 30:45.489 [SPEAKER_00]: I decided I was going to do the 30:45.929 --> 31:06.446 [SPEAKER_00]: the single parent thing and so for years I was on my own looking after the kids and I remember in my journal writing hey this was a really good day you know I coach the kids at a basketball or I turned up to an excursion or I did something so it was the turning up for me and it was actually enjoying some things in life and so I would deliberately intentionally make sure I did some things with friends 31:07.167 --> 31:08.009 [SPEAKER_00]: with family. 31:08.389 --> 31:12.116 [SPEAKER_00]: For myself, you know, years later, I remember thinking, I just want to go cycling in Europe. 31:12.397 --> 31:13.398 [SPEAKER_00]: Just something I always wanted to do. 31:13.599 --> 31:14.180 [SPEAKER_00]: So I did that. 31:14.761 --> 31:17.405 [SPEAKER_00]: And when I was doing that, I went, that's a really good thing. 31:17.445 --> 31:18.588 [SPEAKER_00]: And I enjoyed those things. 31:18.988 --> 31:19.449 [SPEAKER_00]: So for me, 31:20.586 --> 31:21.247 [SPEAKER_00]: being intentional. 31:21.267 --> 31:24.149 [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I like about your podcast that I'm having clear intentions. 31:24.630 --> 31:28.793 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I didn't want to just be under through life and just, you know, go, oh, where's this going to go now? 31:29.374 --> 31:32.356 [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to be intentional about living a life that I wanted to live. 31:32.717 --> 31:34.238 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I made sure I did that. 31:35.059 --> 31:43.266 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a moment, Diane, where I remember we got the diagnosis that my wife had met aesthetic breast cancer and barring a miracle she was going to die. 31:43.826 --> 31:47.329 [SPEAKER_00]: And suddenly everything was put into sharp focus, chasing a career. 31:48.150 --> 31:51.075 [SPEAKER_00]: getting lots of money to build things meant nothing. 31:51.696 --> 31:52.918 [SPEAKER_00]: What became really clear was 31:53.834 --> 31:57.356 [SPEAKER_00]: It was important to me and life was my family and my friends and my community. 31:57.616 --> 31:58.416 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what I did. 31:58.656 --> 32:05.440 [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't bother going back to work, didn't bother looking for the fancy house, knew that my career had shifted and changed forever. 32:05.960 --> 32:06.960 [SPEAKER_00]: And that was all okay. 32:07.381 --> 32:14.384 [SPEAKER_00]: And so those intentional actions of going, we're just going to go to a house where we can actually bed down and enjoy whatever time we've got left. 32:14.424 --> 32:19.967 [SPEAKER_00]: And we had three incredibly intentional years that we wouldn't have had

otherwise if we just kept 32:20.647 --> 32:23.028 [SPEAKER_00]: railing against the world because things weren't working out. 32:23.128 --> 32:29.672 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's what for me the dance was was one being intentional to just turning up on the dance floor. 32:30.112 --> 32:38.356 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not going to pretend I just put a big smiley face on and I went and did the, you know, some dance on the dance floor was full of joy and I was doing prayer wets in the sky. 32:38.376 --> 32:39.076 [SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like that. 32:39.116 --> 32:40.037 [SPEAKER_00]: It was just movement. 32:41.428 --> 32:50.492 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think that what you've done here with resilient souls is so important and even reaching this audience today, more people are going to tune in. 32:50.592 --> 32:55.074 [SPEAKER_01]: So working listeners find that community and connect with you online. 32:55.900 --> 33:00.804 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a website, teachers, resilienceoles.com.au because I'm based here in Australia. 33:00.824 --> 33:01.445 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the AU. 33:02.026 --> 33:08.331 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's where we've got the podcast where you can listen to stories from other people who've always got practical ideas and advice. 33:08.531 --> 33:09.512 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a blog that I've written. 33:09.532 --> 33:11.754 [SPEAKER_00]: You can get my book on there that website as well. 33:11.794 --> 33:14.717 [SPEAKER_00]: So resilienceoles.com.au. 33:15.598 --> 33:16.018 [SPEAKER_01]: Perfect. 33:16.398 --> 33:19.101 [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything you wanted to see to everyone before we wrapped up? 33:19.121 --> 33:20.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I kinda cut you off there. 33:20.987 --> 33:21.467 [SPEAKER_00]: No, not at all. 33:21.928 --> 33:37.303 [SPEAKER_00]: I just encourage people that if you are going through a hard time and you want some hope or you want to find some people who've been through things that you're going through and can share in a real and raw and vulnerable way, I'm really proud of the podcast and the guests that I get to meet and to get to share their stories. 33:37.784 --> 33:41.487 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's not only if you're going through a storm, what I'm really conscious of is 33:42.328 --> 33:45.731 [SPEAKER_00]: You love people or friends or family who are going through really difficult things. 33:46.212 --> 33:49.675 [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you don't know what to do or say and so you don't do or say anything. 33:49.695 --> 33:51.576 [SPEAKER_00]: And that can make it so much harder. 33:51.596 --> 33:55.500 [SPEAKER_00]: So we also focus on what are some of the practical things you can do as a friend. 33:56.141 --> 33:56.981 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you be there? 33:57.001 --> 34:05.028 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you avoid just saying to someone, sending him a text and saying, if you need anything, I'm here and that person never reaches out because they don't know what they need. 34:05.089 --> 34:09.693 [SPEAKER_00]: So

we flip that around and say, here are some ideas of the practical things that you can do. 34:10.546 --> 34:26.673 [SPEAKER_00]: The other thing just to finally Diane is, after all these interviews and with my background as a school teacher and a parent, I've become really, really convicted that what's needed is some support and some help in how do you have conversations with kids because we don't just go through the storm on our own. 34:27.053 --> 34:29.935 [SPEAKER_00]: Very often we're part of families and we've got young children watching on. 34:30.535 --> 34:34.018 [SPEAKER_00]: whether that's a death, whether that's cancer, journey, whether that's mental illness. 34:34.579 --> 34:37.041 [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're putting together some resources. 34:37.381 --> 34:44.488 [SPEAKER_00]: How do you have a conversation with a young child about diagnosis in the family, about an accident, about something? 34:45.008 --> 35:06.942 [SPEAKER_00]: and how do you deal with age appropriate because we want to equip teachers and parents to help kids navigate the journeys in life because often we look at kids and go they're happy they're fine but those deep doubts and pain and struggles they have an impact and they can work their way out as teenagers and young adults so we're doing some focus on that too because we really do want to make sure what we're doing 35:07.702 --> 35:17.124 [SPEAKER_00]: is not just sharing stories of grief where people go all that was painful, but it's stories of hope that there's a way through and there's some practical things that can help you as you journey, whatever you're going through. 35:18.624 --> 35:27.946 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, as we wrap things up here, Stuart, you've kind of given us a little perspective into how you have clear intentions, but I always ask my guest here as we end. 35:28.406 --> 35:30.987 [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to you to live a life with clear intentions? 35:32.784 --> 35:41.293 [SPEAKER_00]: and tell listeners that it's so important to work out what really matters in your life and then to hold on to that no matter what comes your way. 35:41.954 --> 35:46.780 [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say showing up with purpose so that you're always thinking out would not just inward. 35:47.560 --> 35:51.164 [SPEAKER_00]: It's holding plans loosely, loving people well and trusting God through it all. 35:51.445 --> 35:52.486 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you get through the storms. 35:53.803 --> 35:54.284 [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. 35:54.304 --> 36:04.957 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for I know it took you maybe longer than you wanted to write your memoir, but I'm so glad that it's out there helping people now and that there's this community to help people as they're going through the storm. 36:04.977 --> 36:07.040 [SPEAKER_01]: So I appreciate you sharing it with us and being here today. 36:07.060 --> 36:08.282 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much. 36:12.427 --> 36:13.648 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think of the episode? 36:13.668 --> 36:15.509 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you enjoyed the conversation. 36:15.529 --> 36:23.714 [SPEAKER_01]: To learn more about today's guest, including links or resources related to everything discussed today, check out the show notes in your podcast window. 36:25.295 --> 36:34.280 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to support the podcast, be easiest and most impactful thing you can do is subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 36:35.633 --> 36:38.098 [SPEAKER_01]: and leave a rating or review of your favorite episode. 36:38.699 --> 36:47.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Lastly, sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is so helpful and will encourage others as they set out to pursue a life with clear intentions.