התמלול המלא של Episode 17: Polygraphs with David Ower

hopefully, with my sessions, and then confirming something if there's anything to be confirmed, but we can get more into that. It's been quite the experience. Now I've done almost 4,000 tests in over 10 years, and probably 90 % of those are on sex cases. Jacob & Miriam: I was going to ask what the ratio was. David Ower: was traveling around doing a lot of sex offender testing for quite a long time. So everything was forensic in nature. We already had identified people with certain behaviors. So you're checking a lot of known issues. When you're dealing with partners now 10 years of referrals from across California and beyond, I've gotten some good experience with that to see it's not the same thing, but there is overlap. We don't have time today to get into all that, I see Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: the human and you can deal with cultural differences in the way you approach disclosure. Some people want more. Some people want less. Some people want a big interview. Some people want three questions, you know. I'm open to different perspectives on it, but I do value in depth trauma informed approach to this, where we actually get down to early life if possible. Some people just start at when their relationship began. But I think it's helpful to disclose behaviors in the past as well. It's getting to know the person. It's not just about proving a certain time But to each their own, I get people requesting just marital boundaries on test questions and some people come to me with very particular requests. Some people just tell me, do what you do. And then I go at them with whatever questions I think are relevant. when you're disclosing something, you either honor the truth or you dishonor it. you either are full pity and self pity and excuses or you're being clear and straightforward you're able to sit with it or you're not. And so it really gets down to how you carry it in your nervous system, which is what polygraph is about. So if you are being insincere and saying true things, you can still be omitting details and aspects of it because your pride is telling you this is just the bare truth. know, deal with this with how intimate affairs get. Saying, love you. Deal breaker behavior, stuff that a partner says, I would never be with you after that. And so when we're getting into nitty gritty, it's heavy. And then I'm able to see, can this person meet me there or not in the interview? If they can, then they can proceed and move on. Some people claim that they're okay and I can see it coming and then they fail. And then I'm not surprised because they've seen that coming. They've already, they've shown it with their bodies. So polygraph, the professional behavior analysis that we do is all subtleties all the time. So you partners who were triggered, you know what it's like and you're watching everything. Why did he sniff? You know, why is he covering his space right now? what's the meaning behind this. And no one person has, there's not a guide you could give for reading behavior. So I don't want people to be obsessive about this. My partner wanted me to teach her how to read behavior. I'm like, no, you already do it too much. Relax. Cause you're already hyper-vigilant. You don't need to learn anything. But sitting with people, Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. Totally. David Ower: it's almost like work field reading at this point, because I don't know that I'm doing it. So I do it from a natural position while I'm engaging so I can be sincere and also feel what's going on. So I think that's the ideal approach for this. can meet someone in that vein knowing they could be a sincere person with no real known trauma, they might not have done all the behaviors you make up about it or that the partner makes up about it. They may have done many other things that we're not even talking about here today. that somehow isn't being scrutinized or it's not part of the discussion for today. let's not even get into alcohol today. These things happen everyone has a tolerance for what they're willing to go into and then how much is being disclosed. So I think it's best for partners to be informed. That's why I wrote a book for partners if you are equipped with an idea of what you want, then you can put the onus on the other person. You could put the onus on the polygraph examiner. or you can participate and come up with what you want to know. And I encourage that. Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: I think everyone should stop and say, what do I really wanna know? And then hopefully the partner is willing to share responses to all those kinds of questions that go beyond maybe your typical polygraph question set. I really encourage in-depth work. I don't like doing these exams that are quick. When people tell me, I got three questions, rest assured I'm going to ask many other questions. And I try not to pitch it Jacob & Miriam: Ha David Ower: that way because if they really, I'm like, look, we can keep it as short as possible, but I'm going to still ask questions because that's my job. I'm not here to just do what you want. I'm here to check if you're being honest, which is a different thing. And then I have to work with polygraph techniques to do a proper test. So if partners can bring me three questions, say, these are the top three, that's great. But I want to know about the behaviors that undergird those questions. I don't want to just do what your therapist recommended necessarily. I want do an actual investigation. So it has value to you. And then is what's funny. The takeaway on that is the guy that jumps through that path of integrity. has respect for himself and the process. So they get Jacob & Miriam: Mm. David Ower: the benefit. of building trust, even when they're disclosing shameful additional behaviors. If they can have their integrity about them, then they move on with actual recovery, which is being honest. So the buy-in from the partner is not necessary. I just encourage it. I think partners are

overwhelmed. They don't need another homework assignment. But I think we do have enough tools and resources in community to provide them with more. And then if they do participate, they will get that benefit of processing the trauma related to asking such questions. Jacob & Miriam: When people walk in your office, they're usually carrying a lot of fear, defensiveness. What are the biggest myths that they have about what's actually happening in that room? David Ower: my goodness. I've got a few myths all hit, but the biggest thing I see is some people come in, they sit right in this polygraph chair that I'm sitting in right now. And I have to go, no, go to the comfy couch or take the green chair over here because we're doing dialogue first. I'm not jumping you into a test. So that's a very common misconception. Another common misconception is that polygraph is instantaneous. In other words, people think there's a universal truth response and then we just plug you into the truth monitor and then outcomes the result. It's not like that. It's more like getting a, an interrogative MRI because you're getting pinged with questions where you have to remain very still in an abnormal way, a way of sensors all over your body. And that's questions that are repeated multiple times in multiple rounds. So you're, getting redundancy. it's about 15 to 30 minutes of data collection, depending on how smooth it goes. If people get the wiggles, you know, during the test and it creates blurry data and you have to do it again. people don't imagine that when they come to polygraph. I don't think anyone imagines that. I was trained in it. I'd done these for a while and then I underwent security clearance polygraph with the federal government. and they take a good long time with you and anyone who's had to go through that. sure some of your listeners have. Any security clearance polygraph is in depth and take a long time intentionally because they view it as an interrogation session. Even with an understanding of polygraph, it felt too long. And then when it came time to sit for the test, I hated it. Okay. And I'll tell people that all the time. I am not looking for time in my life to get polygraphed. That said, They're taking a heavy-handed, interrogative approach. I'm not doing that. We're dealing with very intense things in a straightforward manner. And so I think people are bracing for someone with a haircut, first of all. used to play that role where you're actually, because that's kind of what you're trained to do, go be this way. I found myself more free and open in interviewing and now they teach, interview models that are not interrogative. So that approach served me very well and it's kind of become more of an intuitive stance of how to approach each individual session. But when people come in, they don't know that I'm intuitive and just there to meet them. They're ready to get jumped in. So it's just not as scary doing it well the way I'm doing it. If you're just considering polygraph in general, you need to consider who this person is. Give them a call, talk with them. You'll get an idea what they're like. Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: Look them up. And you know, by the way, I know a lot of great law enforcement officers who make excellent private examiners. retired detectives and such all sorts of people in this industry. So I just know by and large, this is not the norm. And I get some partners where they want to refer to me because I'm overtly humanistic. They want their partner to be beat up by an examiner. And I don't see that as my role. I'm not being therapist. I'm not trying to praise, but when someone comes to me, it is a little different. When you go to any polygraph session, though, you're still going have a conversation with the person before you get tested. And then you're going to have to sit for too long basically when you get to the test. I like to give same day results. I like to tell people when they're present unless they bring their partner. If partners come, I don't release results on site. policy. So I can turn Jacob & Miriam: So you don't have to do marriage counseling on the spot. David Ower: it Yeah, the blowups, those are for the daytime TV, I suppose. What you want to to prepare yourself for a polygraph, guess that's a natural segue if you're okay with that. Because I just, Jacob & Miriam: Yeah, let's do it. David Ower: I want the person if they're visualizing and I'm not just to say, hey, these are common misconceptions. But what I see is a lot of people think they have to get everything nailed down before they show up and you don't. I require nothing. People come in with absolutely nothing and I just interview them. I encourage people to provide me case information. so if you can provide your polygraph examiner with the case information they need to do your polygraph. disclosure documentation. drug testing results of, know, if there if there's a disclosure package in general where you're proving accountability or something, you're stating what your plan is and what your accountability is and things like that, If the partner wants to call and talk with me and tell me information, great. She wants to email me all of her questions and concerns. That's phenomenal. Some people want to bring their partners to the polygraph. If you're doing a polygraph before disclosure, which is a whole other topic of conversation is when do you do a polygraph? Some people do them before a disclosure. Some people do them after. So if you're doing a polygraph before disclosure, the person being tested would come, but they wouldn't bring their partner because the idea behind it is to withhold the information until the disclosure. So you don't want to preempt that and do double trauma of rehearing it at the disclosure and hearing it in a non-therapeutic setting because this is non-therapeutic. That said, you're welcome to come to the first session. You're just not going to be in there for any

of the interview because we're going to talk about the information you're not supposed to have. And then if you are doing a polygraph post-disclosure, by all means come down if you want to do that. Generally, people don't bring their partners, but become more open to it. I know one therapist that told me, now that she knows that's a thing that I allow, she's encouraging all her post-disclosure partners to come down because she thinks it's great for them to meet me, talk with me, share all their concerns. What we do in that case is we do the interview together. I would talk to the partner and say, what are your main concerns? I'm gonna tell the person being tested all the test questions, but I just wanna make sure I hear her main concerns because when put a test together, there are all sorts of issues that get addressed in a polygraph besides the main concerns. whole bunch of test questions that get no score whatsoever. And I want to make sure what the main targets are from her perspective without him being in on it. Because I want to know without him knowing what the big deal is, I want to know what the big deal is to him when he comes back in. So then I asked her to go out because during the test, you don't want to partner in the room. It's hard to find an equivalent where they even would allow it. Like I suppose you might be allowed to watch someone in an MRI too, but you wouldn't ask to go be in there. That would be weird. someone's undergoing an assessment and you don't want to be part of the stimulus. With polygraph, that's a huge deal. So a lot of people think they're coming to a polygraph with their partner and the partner thinks they're going to sit there and watch it. So I have to tell them straight up, no, you're not going to be in here for that. I have a non-private viewing window, which I can pull up a screen to if people wanna pay extra to watch, and I haven't done it here yet. I discourage it, I don't think it's a great idea. Some people want that. Polygraph examiners record our sessions. I charge way too much money for video recording and I've sold them to people, but it's for accountability with professional organizations, it's not for the consumer. rest assured if you're using a professional polygraph examiner, there's software will automatically record your session. There is accountability. You don't need to sit there and watch If you want to watch ask because everyone has different options. I don't know. I think some people do allow people in the room, but you won't find that by and large with polygraph. We're trying not to do So depending on what you do, whether you bring your partner there, going to affect the way the interview goes. I do encourage people who are responsible for confirming truth to take responsibility for that. And that includes offering to their partner if they want to come, if they're okay with it, you know, but that's for them to work out as a couple. the individual can certainly do the polygraph on their

own if they're just going to be tested. And that's what I see probably at most cases. someone just shows up for their test then I'm passing the information to those other people. The partner's calling me before still, we're talking, we're emailing, but they're not coming down to the session typically. So each their own, For me, if you're there without your partner, you're gonna hear your test results. want me to contact your partner and discuss the results with them, there's an add on fee, because I don't like to get into the... post-test dialogue, but you're going to get a same-day report from me regardless. But yeah, I'd say that's it. I don't know. There's probably things I'm missing, but that's what to expect from Polygraph. The original question there. what people think polygraph will be and it isn't. think it's just, it's good to know. polygraph is a probability statement. So it's a credibility assessment where you're basically saying a probability that someone's truthful. There's no black and white truth in line. And so I think that's really important to say from the outset as well. We're using now, I mean, I say we, professional polygraph examiners affiliated with like the American Polygraph Association or their state's major association for California is the California Association of Polygraph Examiners. There are others, there's National Polygraph Association and the American Association of Police Polygraphers. If these people are, actually keeping up with their membership, then they have to undergo continued education requirements, and we're given updated information about the science of polygraph. So like therapy, polygraph is pseudoscience seeking scientific validation. So the whole industry has kind of gone towards evidence-based practices, and polygraph is that way now. with that, we have probability statements that vary according to test type. For most tests you're going to see for this type of polygraph, it will not be a single issue evidentiary tests. Some people argue that you can address just one issue by just addressing it. If they're honest in the disclosure, it doesn't really work that way. You're dealing with many issues in the disclosure and it's not evidentiary. Evidentiary would be dealing with a particular case of moment in time, a theft, a shooting. a behavior that was singular and distinct. Okay, we're dealing with multiple unknown behaviors, so we're doing a screening test. Screening tests for polygraph are required to be 80 % accurate and above. The test types you're going to see most commonly are around 85 % accurate. 85 to 87-ish for a screening test. I like to use one that's 87 % typically, but it's negligible between the 85, it doesn't matter. And a lot of people use this 85 % one, but that's what you're getting when you're going to these things as a screening polygraph typically. If you're not comfortable with that and you want to address singular issues, you can always do that. And I do those for my private clients as well. For example, someone's preparing for a disclosure, but the partner wants to about limits of sexual partnership with other people that she already knows about. So there is a discovery already. She needs to know is the main issue. She doesn't want to stay with him if he's been doing this and that. She wants to the limits and know if he's being honest now. Well, that's like a good urgent response polygraph where you're dealing with a single issue. Dealing with less things at once is more accurate. So it's not black and white. And then to muddle things further, you can get an inconclusive test. which can come about for a lot of different reasons. You can have inconsistent responses where you're not meeting thresholds for classification as true floor deceptive. So there's actually limits to what's categorized. If you have ever worked with probability or statistics, you've seen one of those bell curves and there's just a gap where, you you're not really concluding anything based on the data we can't really weigh in. You also can get inconclusive test results. for erratic movement during the tests. And that can come about even due to natural processes. Some people have post ventricular contractions that happen too frequently and muddle the data. And we have to say, okay, this is not a suitable candidate. And I've had a lot of different cases where there's a candidate who's marginally suitable or barely suitable, and we're still able to get good data. But I'm saying in my report, This person's marginally suitable. In other words, there could be other factors cause issues. If a person has seizures, I mean, that's not a good thing. We're having you sit very still. So when you come in for a polygraph test, you're asked about your medical condition. You're asked about medications you're taking. Some people ask about sleep and get more detailed about it. They want to know you're okay. I want to know you're okay to do it. Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: That said, a lot of people do get poor sleep for a Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: polygraph. A lot of people can't control, you know, that they're on a certain amount of medications that make them feel weird. That's okay. It doesn't matter what's in your system. Don't worry about it. Don't stop your medications. Don't skip your morning coffee. what's normal for you to stay awake. And I'll tell you, back at the time when I went through my security clearance stuff, I was on these five-hour energy drinks and I made sure to have one before my polygraph. Pop culture would say, don't do that. You're going to be agitated. no, if I stopped doing that, I would have been asleep. guy who can fall asleep. Yeah, no, can fall asleep in a movie theater during an MRI. Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. That is homeostasis for you, right? Yeah. David Ower: I've done it multiple times. haven't done it in a polygraph. I've had eight people fall asleep in a polygraph in almost 4,000 tests. So it happens. being

neurologically up against the wall with stress. And then the stimulus is overwhelming and it's also sedative to sit so still with my monotone voice, because I talk like this, but when we get to the test, it's one monotone question, a long pause, and then it's repetitive. Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: You're hearing questions over and over. So people get lulled into this kind of trance like state and just lose it. Do whatever is necessary for you to take care your body. And at the end of the day, that's all background because If you're at homeostasis, like you're saying, that's what's critical. Your body naturally achieves homeostasis when you just let it rest. your body will find homeostasis and then that becomes the baseline for what we're measuring. So some people will tell me, I'm super sweaty. We have little sweat gland electrodes over here. sweat gland electrode measures your changes in sweat gland activity. It's not saying, bang, bang, this person's a sweaty person. You Jacob & Miriam: Ha ha ha. David Ower: could have hyperhidrosis, which I've seen, and that becomes sore with even getting the sensors to stay on the hand. but we can do it. Heart issues, don't beat yourself up. People go, I have high blood pressure. Okay, good to know medically, so you're not getting yourself overly stressed. But your job is to just show up regardless of state. So what you can do to help your polygraph is treat your body like, It wants to be treated. if you have a habit of abusing yourself with being ground down, try to give yourself some rest. Try to have breakfast or something. don't know. Be gentle with yourself because you're going through a nervous system event I was hearing someone talking about stressful events and the way it impacts the body and the mind. And they were listening dentists and other scenarios like this, like a surgery and I realize mine is probably one of the worst stressors for people. This is very, very sensitive stuff. This is very heavy. It makes or breaks people's whole life, how they do on one of these. So it's very stressful. Yeah, but do yourself a service by showing up as a witness to what you're doing and just acknowledge if you are too tired, you know, because it is what it is. Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: And then... what you can have agency in regardless of what your medical condition is or what is going on with your body or sleep habits. If you take ownership of what you're bringing to the table, Your body is gonna still be at peace enough where you're not gonna be responsive to those questions that make it look like you're a liar. If you're being honest. Jacob & Miriam: Yeah, that makes sense, David. So curious too, as we're talking about, stress and the outside circumstances that people often fear are going to result in a fail, Like, no, I c I David Ower: Yeah. Jacob & Miriam: I have to do everything perfectly, otherwise I'm going to fail. what insight or what advice for someone who's walking into this? with that anxiety that they feel coming into the test that no, even though I'm being honest, I'm gonna fail. David Ower: So I like to meet people in their nervousness, a lot of times jokingly by saying, if they tell me they're nervous, because we'll talk about it. And I'll say, well, stop that. Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: You can't, obviously, so it's mean. But they get the point. It's like, well, what are you going to do about it? It exists. You're nervous. And if you were being honest, you're nervous for a good reason. If you're being dishonest, that's a different reason. So I talk to them about I talk to them about what's normal to be nervous about, which is limits of your own memory. Okay, and that's an interesting topic of discussion because what we're dealing with is a lot of times built in doubt because what is being disclosed is not what has been said in the past or even thought about in the past. And there are things that someone forgot they did quite often in a disclosure because now that they've thought about it and now that they're sober. They're recalling things that their traumatized self couldn't recall in the past. So there's appropriate nervousness about the limit of your memory. So what I tell people is be honest about the limit of your memory. That's the thing. So if you're nervous about it, be aware of it and observe what you're saying when you say what you say. If you're saying, I'm nervous because I'm just afraid of a false result. I've heard about it. Yeah, me too. That's the way I felt when I got polygraph. I hated it. That's what's horrible. Because it's uncanny, we're using technology and you're being judged while you're just sitting there. That's harsh. I think it's harsh. It's good to understand that that is beyond your control. If you're doing it, if you're taking responsibility, you're not going to trigger a false negative if you're being thorough and direct and honest. I see people that are actually neurotic to the point where if you lift a rock, there's another rock. And then the ultimate rock is, well, what if I don't remember? Okay. And so people often will say, well, to the best of my memory, if you're one of these people that's saying to the best of my memory, cut it out. Everything we ever say is to the best of our memory. Okay. It's implicit. And so I like to encourage people to, acknowledge that what you're doing here today is the best of your memory. So my only concern is not about the things you never thought of before. My only concern is about the things that you're aware of that you're forgetting, because I'm not measuring ultimate truth. I don't have a truthometer and I'm sticking it in you to see the temperature. Okay. There's no true false. You're either sitting with what you know to be true and you're not having responses to questions as a result, or you're obsessing over the fact that you don't believe yourself about anything or a particular thing. What's in your control is awareness and

consciousness. So if you are an habituated over thinker, I suggest you meditate. I had to go through my polygraph stuff, to me it was like forced meditation with some weird interruptions, like the way would be when you're meditating and there's birds. A stimulus is just a stimulus, like a bird. I don't know many people that cower and flinch when they get a bird chirping. It's just what it is, you notice it. Hearing about your past behaviors is a shame inducing nervous system question. So I encourage you to sit with what you know to be true you meditate and offer that up to God. Let it go from your highest self or whatever in your spirit and soul, wherever you think you are and give it up because your body's actually gonna release that. And the more you can sit with what you know to be true, it's not about brainstorming facts against yourself. It's about awareness of what you know to be true. Then you have something that you can carry with you and it's called your integrity. So what I tell people that are nervous about details and stuff like that is put your hand on your heart. Now imagine yourself when you leave here today. Either you're going to be able to put your hand back on your heart and say, I was with myself, or you're going to be nervous and feel out of body and overwhelmed That's worst case scenario. But you have an opportunity to bear witness to yourself doing something of integrity. And I know there's shame, there's doubt, even about your own memory. not measuring whether or not you'll remember something in the future, or whether or not there was one other detail. We're measuring your sincerity at a moment in time. If you can sit with that, you're gonna be okay. So most people respond to that very well. The neurotic, unfortunately, the unpracticed sitting. All have the same difficulty even sincere meditators will tell me well that sucked, know, but glad I glad I can sit because at least they can have space to let a stimulus be what it is. Jacob & Miriam: Love that so much. That's okay. So staggered disclosure is devastating to a betrayed spouse. How does a verified disclosure like a polygraph allow a partner to finally stop waiting for the next shoe to drop and anchor them back into reality? David Ower: So when you're talking about staggered disclosure, I'm assuming your audience knows exactly what that is. I'm gonna just say my own understanding of it. So staggered Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: disclosure is when you're saying the truth more than once and you're leaking out information bit by bit as if it's the whole truth each time. And so you're Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: saying here's more, here's more, and maybe it's just adding detail. But the way people communicate generally is generally... There's a discovery. Some people have guilt and shame and they out themselves. They do a disclosure, an initial disclosure, I should say. staggered disclosure is pretty much always present. It's like a very common thing, except for those people who get very quick therapeutic help. Cause then the therapist say, Stop doing that. So I would encourage your listeners, they're in a discovery phase, go deal with known truth ASAP. So there are people that can do it in intensives. There are people that can do it in sessions. There are people that can do it in whatever you need. And then tie it to something where you're building accountability so you know what you're getting the sooner you can do the actual full disclosure, the better. there's discovery and you're a listener and you haven't experienced this, God bless you. If there's discovery, get therapeutic help ASAP. Go find out what you need to know ASAP. Most people don't have that luxury. with polygraph, when there is a staggered disclosure, it's a feeling like it's gonna keep going forever. And so this is a common feeling. Polygraph is a great tool to staunch that. By the way, polygraph is in the branch of assessment called credibility assessment. And in that field, there's a few different things that people use. Polygraph is still the gold standard because it's adaptable to an interview process and you can customize it. We have enough data to back the statistical accuracy. What we bemoan is the accuracy. Jacob & Miriam: Okay. David Ower: We would love highest accuracy stuff. Maybe we'll see changes in that. But in the meantime, a polygraph is adding incremental validity to what you already know. I would just encourage people don't approach even a polygraph tied to a disclosure. as the end truth. Like I said, we're doing a probability statement. So it should add incremental validity to what you already know. So it's decision support. It's not decision substitute. If you're looking for death by polygraph or marriage by polygraph, not a good idea. Don't rely on it like that. You still need to deal with what you know. I would encourage everyone. who's in a staggered disclosure to consider it as a tool, look into it for yourself, because there are issues with it. And if you're not dealing with someone who knows the field currently and who knows this particular area, you could be a bad pair. But there are examiners out there that specialize in this. Even if you're thinking you would never come out to visit me, I would be happy to discuss your case with you. I people call me from as far as Tennessee and Maine and Florida, just to discuss these kinds of things. And because they can't find someone wherever they're Keep looking, you know, it's not the end all, but it can help you be at peace and deal with the trauma of feeling like it's endless. people after their polygraph come back for more. I get people where they're coming back every time they relapse. And I'd encourage after disclosure is view the disclosure polygraph not as a one and done thing. Do not think of polygraph as just a disclosure tool. Think about rebuilding trust. So now it's a tool of rebuilding trust for the appropriate amount of time. I don't think it's a

great idea to do a polygraph every month. You know, I know some people who've signed up for that because they've been habitual liars. Maybe that's needful in some cases. Some people do it quarterly and I would try to talk them down from that in the past, but then I've seen therapeutically where it's warranted. you want to come in six months after your disclosure, I think that's a good mark to say I'm sober if you are. A year checkup is a great idea for a lot of people. It's not for everyone. I don't think polygraph should be forever because I don't believe in the decision substitute. I don't believe in putting the partner at odds with the person being tested. So I know some therapists, and this is edgy, but I work with a few therapists where they will only refer to polygraph if both partners get polygraphed. Jacob & Miriam: Hmm. David Ower: And so in my book, I basically suggest as you're going through this, consider what you want to know, but also consider your own willingness to do this. Not that it's for you, but you want to, you want to hopefully renew trust where you both trust each other. It's not about the scrutiny for the guy rebuilding trust. Great opportunity for the guy scrutinizing. Great opportunity. You will get to fail if you have a liar, they will respond. You will get more information if someone's trying to be honest. It's a great tool. it's not for everyone. I've consulted people where they say, it's just not for us. Okay, I get it. It's a weird tech. There are other tools. I've referred people to many different assessment kinds of tools. And that's another subject matter, but For honesty, this is still the thing. Jacob & Miriam: So good. so much of what you're saying is stuff that I hear over and over again from guys who are staring down the potential of a polygraph or even just disclosure in general. And the number of times that I have seen, you know, hey, they go through disclosure, go through polygraph, and then their spouse is sitting on the other side of it, and they've kind of depended on that polygraph result to heal them in some way, shape, or form. And so I like the way that you spoke to that maybe this is going backwards a little bit here, but but how would you you know say test questions are structured so that they measure specific time-based facts rather than just emotions or subjective guilt? David Ower: with polygraph exams, we're not asking subjective questions. So I get the question, do you still love your wife? know, brutal question. I'll ask it as an unscored question if someone really wants it in there and I'll explain to them, hey, this isn't getting scored. It's pointless, but we're going to ask it. I'll do it to see what the person's response is, even if it's not scored, because I'm curious about the way they responded And I have a certain amount of questions that are not scored. so I can do that. Relevant issues are typically targeting specific behavioral concerns like immeasurable behavior. So a big topic and I don't know, you guys are doing a recovery podcast so I'm gonna be sexual I guess. Masturbation, I mean that's the topic. With fantasy, right? So people have a stimulus typically of a visual stimulus and then. Partners will say, I want to know about masturbation and I want to know about fantasy. Is he fantasizing? Well, fantasy is a mental state. It's not a behavior. So oftentimes what you'll see us do is tie the behavior the mental state. have you masturbated to any fantasy? Because masturbation is a measurable thing. Did you do this? I will still interview the question. I will still ask a question, I've done tests where I'm doing people's arousal templates. We want to know is this person aroused by kids and adults and men and you know, what's the sake here? So I go down one by one and say, right, you're arousal zero to 10. So if you say you're aroused to man at a seven out of 10 and you're aroused to women 10 out of 10, well, that's very subjective. I'm still going there because I want to know in the interview their level of honesty and that this is their opportunity to get that out there. On the test itself, I probably won't have a relevant test question about your arousal template. Okay. If you're articulating things in your disclosure about your arousal template, well, now that is subject matter that can be tested basically, because you're making a claim. So a lot of times what we have is a generic test question that's addressing the whole disclosure. You see this quite often. You know, did you withhold any relevant information from your disclosure? Well, if you're saying you're not aroused men that much, but you really are, and it's opposite way around, you like men 10, you like women seven, But I've done these for partners where they're in the room, they're hearing the person articulate that they're still aroused to the old stuff. And it's very therapeutic to say, I'm acknowledging this is where I'm currently at and I'm not okay with it. Right? But this is honest about where I'm at. So it's crushing information, but it's relevant to the discussion of if that's at play. So I go there, if people want that sort of topic, I'll ask about love in a pre-test interview. On the test itself though, we're focusing all questions on behavior. So. in my book, I do case studies and I show the kinds of questions I come up with. I look at some tests where I go, well, geez, the partner really wants to know this very difficult to articulate issue. And the guys meeting her there about what their boundary is. What I try to do is make sure that thing that's being referred to is defined by them. Okay. So I know what they believe their boundary is. And then I'm articulating that and confirming what the limits are for that. some people are disclosing dreams. A dream can't be relapse. if I'm busting bubbles here. I hope we don't have any dream police. Dreams are informative. Psychologically, they show desires, they show shedding, they show trauma. They

show bad thinking, they show good thinking. And it's like sometimes just a warning for the subconscious where it makes no sense. Some people are reporting that level of information, they're partnering with it. When they come to the polygraph, they're literally saying, have you told me everything, including about dreams? God bless you guys and your level of accountability, but we're going to have to parse that out and look at what the behaviors are that are being disclosed, and then I have to draw the line about dreams because that's unconscious. people do ask those questions. Still, they still answer them in the pre-test interview. You're just not going to see many questions about dreams. You're not going to see questions about fantasy per se. If it's an issue you need addressed and you want to wrestle with how to address it, I'm game to do that. And I've tried to make things work for people, but know that polygraph is targeted for protection of the honest person because you can elicit responses by just asking about emotional content I know some Jacob & Miriam: Mm. David Ower: people say, you know, like three second rule, I'm not looking at women. And so had one woman ask, have you, looked at any woman longer than three seconds, thereby objectifying her? And I said, well, before we answer this question, I have a different question. Is it possible for you to objectify someone in under three seconds? And he acknowledged, So when the three seconds hits, is that when you start objectifying? That's the way the partner understood it is like, here's the limit. Once you hit that limit. That's objectifying. So we need to get clear about even what his boundary was. I had to articulate the question where I'm addressing his limits, but I'm not asking it the way she wanted it. So you're going to see Jacob & Miriam: Hmm. David Ower: polygraph examiners rephrase questions left and right. Don't be surprised if your random question that you wanted in there doesn't get in there, but hopefully you are in that discussion with the examiner before it starts. And I tell people what I'm doing. I'm breaking down your question set to address what's disclosed and what the key issues are. So if they're the key issues for you, I'll make it work if it fits in the polygraph rules. your examiner will tell you, hey, we can address this and this and this. We'll address this a different way or not at all, or maybe just in the interview. Some examiners will say, don't even bring that stuff to me because they're rigid about telling people the rules. I think being non-rigid is better for the interview and information, for disclosure, and for the knowledge of the other, if you can be sincere about emotional issues. But then we will try to target specific behaviors for sure. So that should put someone at rest if they're thinking about it being nebulous Jacob & Miriam: so fascinating. David Ower: and open. It's just that if you're thinking, I want to know all the test questions in advance of going to the session, that's unlikely. The thing is, is the examiner will review all questions with you before the test. So there won't be a surprise question on the test. And if you need to say, hey, can you phrase it this way or that way? By all means, say that. If you need to say, hey, my definition of masturbation is this, go say that. because the examiner can adapt to whatever you're bringing to the table. You just need to let them know what it is you're aiming at and ask questions if you're not sure about what their program is for you. Jacob & Miriam: Mm. So I'm even hearing in there good criteria for evaluating your polygrapher is if they're if they're asking or if they're changing your questions and reshaping things and evaluating what you're bringing to the table to try to get to the heart of what truth are we uncovering versus hey I'm just gonna check boxes on these questions that you wanted me to ask. That's which one? David Ower: Well, so this is where, I mean, when I had partners coming to me, this is how my book ended up getting built, was I had partners saying, me your questionnaire. And if you go to many examiners, they'll hit you with a questionnaire because we do those for forensic setting. Having questionnaires is a great way to expedite the process. It's a great way to be thorough. The thing is that I see is most of disclosures are particular behavior sets. It's not everyone's doing everything. So I don't need to ask about every kind of animal under the sun and go through the list of the zoo animals and stuff if there's any other additional sexual behavior you're withholding, that's subject matter. So you're going to get hit with that. You're not going to get hit with, you know, every forensic question. I've seen some of these questionnaires that are out there and it's soothing to get a thing that feels like a professional assessment. But the point is not to assess that. It's if you have a written document, you're you're doing document verification and you're doing it with an interview as well to confirm the document. So it's, is this all here? That's the investigation. We want to know, is there anything else, any other secrets and lies that are buried here? you can miss the goal of it if you're just doing a questionnaire. Now that said, I've worked with some therapists for years without a questionnaire and we're good on it. But I'm in discussion with a major sex addiction therapist right now to build one for them. And I'm not averse to it. I've built questionnaires for the forensic community and for the police community. And I'm good at being thorough and logical about what's at play. you'll see if you pick up the book, what I did was I questionnaire. I had people asking for that so many times. I thought this is really bigger. You have to choose your own adventure. You need to understand behavioral categories and what the animal is that you know, so you can pick what you need to discover. so my book is a bunch of

different categories. of behavioral types and ways secrets can be kept and questions corresponding to those behaviors. So, and then you get case study breakout and a guide at the end for how to approach disclosure if anyone's curious. the idea behind the giving everybody questions is not to say pick from this list. I say in there, this isn't meant to be a disclosure checklist for a person undergoing a polygraph. This is meant to be suggestive because These are just questions that people have asked over the years. Some of these questions can't even make it in a polygraph because they are emotional. And I don't really care because it's questions people ask. So you can be more thorough. a place for questionnaire, but think what you're getting at is it is really important to understand that you're getting to the heart of an issue. And you guys know you work with people. The heart of the issue isn't just readily apparent. The truth is not just something someone has. awareness and consciousness of it is something that can increase and you can be deliberate about getting them. you approach polygraph that way, you're going to get more out of it Jacob & Miriam: I have question going off of your last question because I was also thinking your whole heart at the beginning of this was I had a friend who did a polygraph, he had to travel a long ways. So you become a polygrapher We live in Atlanta, so we have people, friends, neighbors over here on the east David Ower: What town are you guys in up there? Jacob & Miriam: side. We're in Lawrenceville. David Ower: Okay, this is the thing. So it's funny with polygraph, I'm in Northern California, which is more dispersed than Southern California. And if you're in the Bay Area or Sacramento, there's more big city energy. So theoretically, you shouldn't be able to find an examiner, but I get people traveling from LA, Sacramento, San Francisco, I have people coming from Reno and Idaho and nobody from Texas. There's a huge amount of polygraph examiners in Texas, a whole bunch of them doing it therapeutically with a lot of therapists out there, big towns. So if you're in a metropolis, you are more likely to find an examiner. You may have to travel. And I know people where they go across state lines. I've had people come to me from California that found me after they used to fly to Texas because that's all the referral they had from whoever. So if you're in a place where You're rural. Don't fret. Don't be moan it. You may want to consider paying for travel. It's kind of like, sure some of your audience has dealt with this. When you're dealing with medical issues, you know this, you have to shop. If you're going to a surgeon and the surgeon is horrible, you're gonna go get a second opinion. You're gonna go out of town maybe. Maybe you'll even go all the way across the state for a surgery. This is a surgery. This is an emotional surgery. So sometimes you have to go further. Sometimes it's crossing the state lines. Sometimes

it's going to turn over. Even though you have the guy right here who everyone uses, who Barbara says was great. If you don't feel comfortable with what they're doing, go do somewhere else, So it's hard. Polygraph is not the end all of credibility assessment too. If you're in an area, you might have other options for different types of assessment. If you need to go outside the box and you say, I need to do credibility assessment, ask a polygraph examiner. Call the association, call the secretary and say, this is my case. I don't think I have this anywhere near me. Do you guys have anybody you can recommend who specializes in this? don't limit yourself in advance. And also, don't be moaned if you don't have polygraph. Polygraph adds incremental validity. Only God knows the hearts. What's true is not known. We feel out what we can do. We were sensing. So we use sensors, we do it, but all we're limited is to sense and consciousness and awareness. we do our best, but at the end of the day, polygraph will not heal everything, right? You already touched on that. It's just a tool to help you move on and assess other things as well. Jacob & Miriam: I have another question. have you ever had a polygraph test done on you? Sometimes when people get trained on things they have to like undergo the test or I didn't know if you're Yeah. David Ower: Yeah, that's what I was alluding to earlier and I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I had to get polygraph twice for credibility assessment. So it's like a three hour ordeal each time. And I hate it. I hate getting polygraph. So what's funny is we would do mock testing in polygraph Academy and I thought I can do this. You just sit there, no big deal. But when you have to actually go through the scrutiny and then sit with it, even if you're being honest, I'm the guy, I'm the guy where I walk into a grocery store. and I see a security camera and I start thinking about the way my coat looks and whether or not it looks like I might put things in my pockets because I don't want to Jacob & Miriam: Mm-hmm. David Ower: have someone watching me. When a security guard is walking around to check you out, I notice that, know, I basically reverse surveil everything all the time, eventually. And I know a lot of people feel this way. When you're under scrutiny, like when you get your blood pressure, taken at the doctor, we get this iatrogenic effect where the situation itself is affecting the body. So just by you being observed, your heart rate is higher, your pressure is higher. So polygraph is certainly that thing. When I had to go through polygraph, it was letting go of the ideas of attachment to the feeling of stress when I felt stress or the feeling of like, I'm moving too much or the feeling of How much longer will this be? When you're sitting there for you have to be open at a very deep level. covering your whole life is the security clearance stuff. think sex addiction disclosure polygraph is way more difficult than security clearance. And I'll applaud my clients that are sincere when they feel ashamed. When I see someone make a sincere effort to voluntarily disclose horribly destructive things from the standpoint of change and wholeness, I love being witness to that. that's really the treasure for me and the job is if I can encourage honesty, I'm not encouraging saying nice things. I'm encouraging you passing the test by being honest. It feels good. you have your integrity about you and you go, yeah, that's me, it feels good. For people that aren't ready to do that, you might have that feeling all the way up to the test, but you have an opportunity to go through a thing that is uncanny, unsettling, challenging, as an opportunity to show that you're real. And if you get to be real during that process, even a little bit more than you were before, that that investment in yourself and your relationship will be something that you reap later. And I see people with years of sobriety coming in, confirmatory polygraphs annually, phenomenal reports about the kids and the partner. And it's not always bad. We see a lot of trauma when we're talking about disclosure and therapy in this setting. But ideally you move beyond current seven tasks. and beyond 12 steps and beyond, sobriety checklist. And you move into recovery where you're, you're healing your spirit and you're healing your relationship and all other avenues. So I get to bear witness to that. So I really believe in this process. having sat through this stuff myself, it's, it's been something that don't wish upon anyone. I hope everybody who comes in, it's their last polygraph. Jacob & Miriam: David, you are I'm sure you already know this and have probably heard this before, but an insane wealth of knowledge on polygraph. for something that for so many people just seems yeah, polygraph. You go in, they hook you up, pass, fail, like just all of the nuance and yeah, all of the information that you're able to convey. David Ower: It you know what it is this is what's interesting is the experience to this point of awareness. I had to doubt the whole system I was in because the way polygraph used to be polygraph used to pitch themselves as much more accurate. You know, people said, I'm like a hundred percent accurate. I saw, I read this book written by a real famous CSAT and he had his polygraph examiner in the book saying when he's asked how accurate he is, says, well, I'm about as close to a hundred percent of someone could be. Well, which that's, that's marketing. That's jargon and manipulative language. So I like to inform people because to me it's been informative to understand. I wish I could pitch absolute security in the product and say, go get a polygraph. You can't just go do it. Go feel out what you're doing and where. But I like to inform people about what I know enough about, which is just the scientific aspect of there are ins and outs from doing a lot of these where, yeah, we could talk a long time, you guys. And maybe we'll do that another time if you think of any other subject matter, but this has been amazing. I think guys are really hot on what you're doing there. And not to check out your podcast more. I really appreciate you checking me out and contacting me to get me on here. And I hope your community feels free to reach out to me, too. I know when I listen to people, I don't think, hey, I can contact that guy. I'm that guy. know. Jacob & Miriam: absolutely. Where can they find you? David Ower: I would be happy Yeah, they can. They can find me online and get a lot of their questions answered on my web page. They can order my book through there. It's D O polygraph.com. That's D O P O L Y G R A P H dot com. my email, if you want to email me is david at D O polygraph.com. Some people feel only comfortable doing that. and my phone number is 707-800-9911. If you want to talk about your case, I'm happy to discuss answering questions. So happy to help. Jacob & Miriam: Yeah. David Ower: if you mention Brazen and I'll give you a discount. And if you book online and use the code BRAZEN, I think it's set to $50 off right now, Jacob & Miriam: Sweet. Right on. Well you heard it here, folks. David Ower: Thank you guys, God bless you guys and good luck with everything you're doing. It sounds like a great endeavor and I know it's really endless, isn't it? But just Jacob & Miriam: is. David Ower: pause and appreciate how beautiful it is to discuss things like this at this depth. And you guys are a great resource to many people. I'm sure many more will come to help from this kind of work. So luck with everything. Jacob & Miriam: Wonderful. Thank you, David. episodeoutro.withmusic7.27.26: And that is our show for today. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. If today's conversation hit home for you, do me a favor and share it with someone who needs to hear it. We break the stigma by refusing to stay silent, and building new culture takes more than just listening. Pass this along and let's keep the conversation going. Just a quick reminder, while we talk to professionals on this show, Miriam and I are sharing our personal experiences and perspectives. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a substitute for professional medical, clinical, or legal advice or care. Don't forget to head over to brazenrecovery.org. Keep fighting, keep moving forward, and remember, you don't have to do this alone. And you definitely don't have to do it quietly. Stay bold, stay brazen, and we'll catch you on the next episode.