התמלול המלא של Redefining Athlete Representation: Builders vs. Chasers

considered in the top 2 % by the time that an agent is coming to tell you that you're great, give you money to train, do all these different types of things. Like you're a valuable asset. Now that that's happening, there's businesses involved, right? We talk about development businesses, talk about AAU 707, where they sell that same situation in an earlier stage period of the developmental or the cultivation process where the athlete is still developing, right? And a lot of times that stunts the growth of an athlete because there was a lot of rewards. You get the offers, you see the things that are happening at OTC7, you see NIL deals, like there's real money being handed out based off a clout and that's not the fundamentals of the business. So there's a lot of different things that it makes it nuanced to where everyone kind of points to like, the agent is the person that we need to listen to and like kind of misunderstand what an agent is there to do. They're there to negotiate your contract, right? Like that's really it. Like the NFL player advisor, NFL contract advisors, when they say NFL certified agent, they're a contract advisor. Ryan (06:25) Hmm. Mm. Justin King (06:37) They're not a player advisor, they're not a career advisor, they're not player development, they're not mental health, not sports psychologist, they are a contract advisor. So there's like this umbrella that even that they get that says NFL certified or NFL certified agent where it's just like you're not checking all the boxes that the athlete needs, but athletes or agents, they fill in those buckets with like, hey, we have all these different services going through the process. So I think the number one thing is, Ryan (06:40) not player development, they're not getting you, yeah. Justin King (07:07) families and parents need to know what exactly an agent does when you finally get there, right? And they're there to help secure and negotiate deals. But we understand that that's like the finish line, like the last five yards. There's a whole 95, 100%. There's a 95 yards that, that need to happen before they even become somewhat valuable. And so that's where we kind of come in to kind of make that 95 % or that 95 yards like a feasible Ryan (07:18) Yeah, yeah, they're like the cherry on the top. They're the cherry. Yeah. Justin King (07:36) activity go after, you know what mean? Ryan (07:37) Yeah. You know, what's interesting, man, cause I've seen a lot of agents, ⁓ kind of de facto step into that role of like, look, I need to be a business manager. need to quote, be a babysitter, all these other types of things that are not necessarily related to, ⁓ contract negotiation. And two things come to mind. ⁓ one, ⁓ that the lack of development along the way, right. think that speaks to some holes either in. the, the, the program situation, ⁓ lack of investment from the programs that the athlete was previously in, whether that be high school, college, from a personal development and also athletic development perspective. but then also to just the folks that are around them as well. Those, those could be family members, those could be friends, et cetera. ⁓ and entering into this new territory, it's like, you don't know what you don't know. And so when that, when a athlete gets in front of an agent, there's a lot of patchwork that needs to get done. ⁓ or there's gaps or holes that need to be filled, ⁓ in order to make sure that, ⁓ the athlete, ⁓ in and of themselves doesn't, you don't get to the one yard line and then fumble, you know I'm saying? Because there's so much work that needs to be done to get up into that point. And then you're right there. You're so close to the contract, the agent, I feel like. in a lot of ways, shapes and forms steps in to kind of protect that value. Because they're like, look, man, like if you get in trouble, or if you mess up, or if you don't have what you need, or if you're not taking care of your bills, et cetera, then that's messing with my money, right? And at the end of the day, and that's what I was speaking to you earlier, like there's an interesting somewhat alignment of incentives, but they're not really truly aligned at the end of the day. And really with... Justin King (09:16) All right. Ryan (09:29) with again, a lot of patchwork that I think shows up. and I'm, you know, I say patchwork, but the reality is like, I don't know if it's gotten better over the years or not. Like, you know, because if you see enough of the same thing and agents, folks in the ecosystem are like, look, you know, here comes athlete number X again. ⁓ and the same setup is like, look, I got to make sure this guy is good off the field. has beliefs, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ I'm just wondering, is there any. improvement in that area? Is there any development in that area? it still like just status quo? Justin King (10:04) It's status quo because the problem is it's a flawed system that creates flawed people, right? You incentivize people to come into a system where it's like you get paid when the guy signs his contract. Like you don't get paid when he's going through the hardest time of his deal when he's trying to transition out of the game and find his next career. Like you don't get paid to help him do that, but you have to find that next player to make sure your bill stay on and do all that stuff. So like the whole thing of recruiting or the whole thing of agencies essentially like the, like a Ryan (10:28) Mm-hmm. Justin King (10:34) a remote recruiting office. Because that's basically what they do. They sign players, and then once they sign a player, they're guaranteed that 3%. So they're incentivized based on you playing. And a lot of players understand when they really need an agent is like when they're in the unknown. Like, hey, am I coming back this year? Does this team want me? I can't get a job. Can you help me? And that's when everybody has that sick feeling when the agent stops picking up the phone

until you realize the business, like they're not incentivized to pick up the phone. Like you're not making them any money. Like they're running a business as well. And like this next young pup that the business churn, like it's a business that churns, they have to, yep, the nutrition, they have to go back and get that hit from that 3%. And so that was always the problem. I think when you align Ryan (11:07) nutrition. Justin King (11:17) I mean the athletes and the percentages, because I think it's like you said, it's a, it's a rose colored glass, this type of thing where it's like, Hey, we're, we're aligned, but it's like only until you're not valuable anymore. So what about making the athlete valuable? Cause what I realized in my whole career, when I look back, when I got done, I was like, yo, who provided the most value? Like where were the, the tent pole conversations that I've changed my activity to get better. I started doing this. It was like, it was like my pops. It was vets on the team. Ryan (11:28) Yeah. Justin King (11:47) And then they're like just different life experiences. But then there were certain pieces where my agent relationship was a little different. Like he was schooling me on the game since I was 14, 15 years old. And he didn't glamorize the agency game. He told me essentially how I was being used until I started feeling it. He started realizing like, oh, it's not really like a thing. can, can get into the agency game. Say, I'm trying to help athletes and do these different types of things. But if your paycheck is coming from signing this guy that's in college next year, right? You're going to get 50,000 off of him. You can't answer this phone call. You don't have time to answer the phone call for the guy that's not bringing you any money. Ryan (12:19) Let me ask you this, who is responsible for development of the asteroid? Justin King (12:25) That's the athlete is once you become a commodity, like it's to them to put that around them. like athletes don't talk to their agents about player development, right? Like you might go to them for a second opinion, but like a lot of the agents that you speak to, like, I only know about two that you can talk to about actually football personnel, like your gaps of staying in the league. Cause once you get draft, once you get drafted, you know, money, the goal in the league is to stay there. So it's like, who's helping you identify the gaps and close the gap. Ryan (12:49) Yeah, gotta stay there. Gotta stay there. Justin King (12:55) with like objective viewpoint, because you've got to remember the relationship changes once we become the product, right? Now everybody's trying to just keep your business. The agent doesn't really, he doesn't really, he's not going to tell you, need to shape up unless the world's telling you to shape up because they need to get paid. They don't want to get fired and all those different types of things. So there's always been that gap of objective guidance

for the athlete. Cause think about it, when you're coming through the recruiting process, the high school coach, the seven on seven coach, everybody like talking about the lead players. Ryan (13:03) Mm. Mm. Justin King (13:24) someone's trying to entice you to play for them. Everyone's telling you the greatest, know, they're ego coddling to an extent, even when you're going through the recruiting process, like they can't really tell you the real what's happening because they need you to come to the school. Same thing with agents, right? And so that reality hits you when you're in the business and you're like, ⁓ we're here and now I got to fend for myself to see how I can do my thing. And that's the gap that I feel needs to be filled. But I don't know if agents are qualified to do it. Ryan (13:44) Yeah. Yeah, are they? And that's what I'm wondering. Are they the right people to fill the gap? You know what I'm saying? Because we... Justin King (13:53) No, they, no, no, no, I'm saying they're not, but they kind of commandeered that role based on the help from the NFLPA, right? It was like, hey, our certifications of certified contract advisors is a safe thing, right? Financial advisors that are under our wing are a safe thing. Like those guys still steal and rob and aren't great people. You can get like a certification and still be a little shady, but it's about building that right infrastructure and team around you, not one person. And a lot of times agents, Ryan (14:00) Yeah. Mm. Justin King (14:23) come through and they say that we provide all these services. So that I think the gap is that no one's still trying to help these players develop because once they become a product, everyone treats them like the product. And so it's all about taking and extracting from that point. Ryan (14:36) Yeah. It's interesting too, because that responsibility piece, especially ⁓ when players are now being, I guess, targeted at a much younger and earlier age in their athletic career. Like again, if you're around folks who don't know any better, who haven't been down that path, then it's kind of like the blind leading the blind a little bit. ⁓ it ⁓ shows itself as like this perpetual cycle, I think. And literally over this week and I was talking with a friend and they were like, yeah, man, like it's down into middle school now as a relate from like an NIL perspective and just kind of like a recruiting perspective, particularly in basketball where like these young kids rising eighth graders, rising ninth graders, like, you know, they're making spreadsheets and databases and tracking these guys and, you know, building relationships at that age. And, you know, I was like, wow, like, yo, like that is. Kind of mind blowing, but also concerning again, because you just don't know what you don't know, particularly at that young age, you're not even mature enough ⁓ to handle a lot of life's responsibilities. But again, those who are around you, they don't have the experience and or the know-how. ⁓ And then honestly, sometimes their incentives may be conflicted as well. And so like this, ⁓ think responsibility piece and accountability piece on like athlete development. ⁓ is, really, really interesting, man. And I don't, I don't know if there's, like one specific person. And also too, when I think about my own career, like it evolved over a period of time. Like my dad was the primary responsible party for the early part of my career, but there was a very distinct, ⁓ a time where I remember it kind of like a handoff a little bit. Like my dad wasn't as hands on or couldn't be as hands on anymore because he wasn't a coach at Willett and Hills. et cetera, but he trusted the folks that were kind of at the next stop at the train to take me to the next stop down the road. You know what I'm saying? And so ⁓ it's an evolving picture. It's a moving piece. again, now with like money, think it really kind of complicates things. ⁓ And it creates a dynamic that wasn't previously there, but now is for sure there. Justin King (16:59) No, it is and it has to be there because when you say your dad kind of handed you off, handed you off, like that happens to all different phases, right? Like for me, that didn't happen until I got really to the NFL because like I was still in between like coaching, like the way the situation was at Penn State. had more of a connection and like outside sources, whether it was my eventual agent sending me Reavis film, sending me a Chan Bailey film, talking about like that development. was like an ecosystem until I got into the league. It was like you say everybody kind of backed off to where ⁓ you're full developed guy. So you know what you're doing the same way you go to practice, right? There's very little development focus because you're essentially a professional until you start to realize like you need an ecosystem approach. Like it's not one person that kind of leads that development. No, you need somebody that helps with your, your, your mental health. You need somebody to help with your player development. You need somebody to help with your nutrition. You need somebody to help with just like maintain the life off of the football of being a product. Because the main thing that I think people don't realize is that this whole ecosystems, regardless of sport, is like the commodification process that we talk about all the time. And now that it's happening earlier in the development process, it kind of stifles that growth. And so in order to continue to grow, we came into these hurdles when we got into the professionals. But now it's like, how are you developing that asset to withstand these different trials and tribulations that are going to happen that we know are going to happen as adults, but now they're happening at a teenage years? Because that's why I think it's so important for sports parents to be involved. informed and put the right experts around your athletes to get the benefits of

the sports game, because not only are there more opportunities, there are just more pitfalls as well to kind of stifle, not even stifle growth, like really hurt the outcomes of what you, yeah, hurt your career, like what you're ever gonna do. Yeah, 100%. Cause like when you were going through, what was your like take on when like, when the agent started to come holler at you? Like, cause Ryan (18:39) Mm-hmm. In your career. Yeah, not even get you there. Justin King (18:56) For me, was almost like validating that. Like, oh, I'm good enough to go to the league. Nobody wants to watch me. You know what mean? So how was yours? Ryan (18:59) Yeah. Yeah, it was super validating, man. It was exciting. And back in college, when I was in college, it was not necessarily legal. ⁓ There were rules and stuff around like contact, et cetera, but it was just like, all right, I feel like I have an opportunity here, right? And you see some of the draft boards and all that jazz, and you start to pair it up with these random reach outs that you get and connections that you make along the way. was like, this could be a real thing for me. Justin King (19:11) Hahaha. Ryan (19:32) ⁓ but it's interesting when you say that because I was looking at that as the validating point or the agent coming in and saying like, okay, you're good enough instead of me recognizing that within myself along the way. they're like, external validation is very, very important for sure, but it can't be at an expense of you not realizing like, Hey, like I'm the value proposition. You know what mean? Justin King (19:54) It's not because you can get an external validation your whole career. They're the first people that bring ⁓ monetary value to you, right? They're the first people that start talking about cash money. So it's a little bit different. It's like, all right, I'm good enough to get paid. So that's when we got introduced to the idea that we're worth money. These guys are getting introduced to the game that they're worth money at like 14, 15 years old. And it gives a Ryan (20:01) Mmm. Yeah. That's wild, yeah. Yeah. Justin King (20:16) it gives a different sense of even where they're at. know, guys want to start their own companies and do camps and that's all gravy. You can take full advantage. There's, there's a hundred percent and it's still navigating that value. They're still navigating that value to get to the point. Cause the, the, the of the day, fundamentals of the business is still trying to Ryan (20:22) Yeah. But is that the right thing though? Like there is value though, right? Like there's 100 % value. Yeah, 100%. Players should absolutely be valuable. Justin King (20:39) whether maximizing all these different opportunities throughout college or getting to the pros. mean, there's different ways to maximize, but you just don't want to stifle whatever your ceiling is for something else that's in front of you. Because it's interesting when you start to pay attention to other sports and how they approach the development process. You know what mean? Because I think we pay attention to football a lot and how it's treated where it's like, hey, this is a game. You guys go out here, but like, know, at tennis. Ryan (20:40) Yeah. Justin King (21:08) Like people are looking for outcomes, right? Like my daughter or her friends or whenever they're playing, it's like, we're doing this to do this. And it's right in your face because of whether it's the investment to play, whether it's the individual sport aspect, there's a lot of things within football. It's like a socialist type of upbringing. Everybody, we're all together. We're just like us versus them. And then it just gets into this place where it's like, no, you're independent contractor. Ryan (21:16) Mm-hmm. Feels a little fuzzy. Justin King (21:38) like now, other sports kind of prepare them to be that independent contractor because they have to go to a club sport, they have to go away from the school and all these different types of things. like the conditioning of even what they're doing is different than your average football, your average football player when they're just going through the school. Cause there's like a, there's like an assembly line, right? And we're trying to become one person. Ryan (21:38) Hmm, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that mindset because you're absolutely right. I didn't have the, or even really recognize the term independent contractor until I got to the league and money got involved. You know what I'm saying? But this whole time, in theory, in high school and college, the game didn't change. I was still playing safety, still playing on the football team, but now I'm an independent contractor. know what mean? And particularly in college where everybody got to wear the same clothes, it's like a group think mindset, et cetera. ⁓ that is interesting. like basically. Would you say the independent mind, excuse me, independent contractor mindset, ⁓ now needs to be applied at a earlier stage in athlete development. that the right way to look at it? Justin King (22:38) Yes. And that's what's so tricky and hard for an athlete or family to navigate by themselves, to navigate by themselves or even with a parent, because they think it looks like TO doing sit-ups in his driveway to push back at a coach, but like not understanding leverage points, where you're at in the ecosystem, who has power from the high school coach, where you're at and all these different types of things that you need to set up for you to have that leverage and treat yourself like an independent contractor. Cause when a lot of times families Ryan (22:41) Yeah, because they're 15 and 14. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm, you'll know how to move the pieces. Justin King (23:05) give their kids or their young ones to the school and then they don't have the infrastructure around them to even fill those gaps because they completely trust the institution. You know what mean? And that's where it gets

messed up. Ryan (23:20) Yeah. You know, essentially it could be independent contractor and or, cause you know, we talked about like a CEO, like you're the CEO of you. You are in charge of you. And as a CEO, you are a business, right? Like if, if the money is now coming further downstream or earlier in a way, then you think, think like a CEO, think about like you as a business managing yourself both on and off the field. ⁓ and, and that really kind of comes into play with basically everything from your Justin King (23:39) Yes. Ryan (23:50) performance to like your exposure, like your brand, your social media presence. ⁓ We talk about like compliance. I just mentioned like, that wasn't necessarily legal. Some of the things that I was doing back then, but you know, you got to keep yourself out of trouble. Like all of these things, the team dynamic, me, team dynamic, et cetera, you know, having these young athletes start to develop a framework and a mindset around like running their athletic careers as quote, like a business and thinking like a quote CEO. Justin King (24:00) Yeah. ⁓ Ryan (24:20) is really interesting and particularly for me because I transitioned into a CEO. So like that athlete to CEO type of narrative is one that really permeates throughout the business world, right? Like you hear this term called like this term corporate athletes, et cetera. Like the athlete mindset is a very, very powerful one and can position you if you tap into it the right way and build the right ecosystem and have the right resources available to you men like Scott's and Limit. Justin King (24:24) Yeah. huh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is, cause it's like all these different things that are happening in the ecosystem. gives you a chance to develop a dynamic professional, right? If you're tapped in the right way and cause there's a lot of opportunities to create and like be blunt, like create an asshole that doesn't get anything from it because of the different validation points or how the game, ⁓ promote certain things. I mean, like whether it's how guys celebrate, whatever it case may be, but we all know that there's a level. Ryan (24:56) Yes. Right. Justin King (25:18) that you have to, you have to kind of protect yourself from giving too much information early on because they have to continue to continuously get better in that development process. So it's like having those shades when we talk about like a horse a little bit as they're going through to make sure that they're staying focused because I don't feel like it's right for a 14 or 15 year old to understand the business to the magnitude that I do. Cause I think that's where it gets really tricky cause then it'll mess you up. But that's where we talk about the sports parent that kind of intersect there. Ryan (25:41) Right. Yeah. Justin King (25:47) between them to kind of help those guardrails around what's going on. And as the athlete goes up, the ⁓ more they can consume and like relay, then you kind of give them more context of what's going on. Because I think that's where it messes up early when an athlete knows too much and then they have to go against the infrastructure of a coaching staff or whatever the case may be. Because it's an individual journey in a team setting. Ryan (25:59) Yeah. Mm. Justin King (26:15) Baseline is extremely hard to navigate in general. Do you know what I mean? Ryan (26:17) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The team setting is really important, particularly as a CEO, because when you're running your own, when you're running the show for yourself, the key is you don't want to have to do everything. Right. Like, and so surrounding yourself with the right folks and the requisite folks. But again, how are you going to do that? How am I, how am I going to establish like the agency as a 14 year old to say like, I want you, you and you and my team. You know what saying? That's really, that is, they're, they're mission critical, bro. Mission critical. Yeah. Justin King (26:39) That's why sports parents are so important. Cause it's like, cause like that person can be a seven on seven coach. That person typically becomes a trainer and everybody has ulterior motives in helping this person get the asset from point A to B. And when I say asset, that's the NFL, that's becoming a coach, that's working in the game. Everybody that operates in the sport has an opportunity to have a great career working in the sport. Even out becoming a professional athlete. Ryan (26:47) Yeah. Justin King (27:07) if they're geared in the right way with the advisors, coaches, trainers, and things that like holistic development around. And I think that's the contradicting point is that we're talking about a bottom line, ⁓ end goal when lost business. And we're talking about holistic development that sometimes when you talk about holistic development, things that need to be developed don't necessarily help the bottom line. Yes, ultimately they do, but it's about the actual individual and not just Ryan (27:32) Where? Justin King (27:36) commodifying the product to get the outcome that you're looking for because that's what's most profitable. Yeah, I mean, that was probably the one thing I had to come to grips with at the XFL was like, ⁓ these decisions are made this way because it's extremely profitable. So like, there's no point in trying to argue and face this. We just got to make sure you guys develop because Ryan (27:42) Yeah. and profitable from the organization's Yeah. Mm-hmm. Justin King (27:55) 1000 % profitable from the organization standpoint. And that's exactly what you need to be. Yeah, I mean, because like they're trying to make money. So you got to understand as a value proposition, what's the win-win for both of us. So you got to, you know, I mean, if you want to navigate this whole piece like an independent contractor and continue to have a job, right? Ryan (28:07) Yeah. Yeah, you know, you got to treat it like a business in a lot of ways, and forms. And

I had a question around like, you know, the organizational side of things. Like we talked about agents a little bit and like how they show up as it relates to interfacing with athletes and their personal and professional development. But also like, again, because I asked like, who's the responsible party here? And like, I talked to a lot of kids who are going into college. And the main piece of advice that I give them is like, look man, get everything that you can out of whatever school that you're going to because they're going to get it out of you. And everything that you can primarily means like make sure that you get a degree, make sure that you have some contacts, relationships, et cetera. the role of organizations in the, I think, development, not only on the field, which... obviously happens because there's a lot of investment that goes into these fancy weight rooms, the facilities, et cetera, but like the off the field portion of it, especially now again, with this NIO era and this money is flowing. just, I'm like, man, like there's such an opportunity for organizations really to empower the athletes and make them better people, which ultimately will make them better players. But is that something that you're seeing out in the marketplace? Is it, is the gap closing as it relates? from like a college program who's investing tens of millions of dollars into athletes from a physical development standpoint, are you seeing changes? Are you seeing movement? Are you seeing progress ⁓ for that same energy and effort and resourcing to off the field activities and even post-playing career activities? Justin King (29:59) I think you get a box checking type of initiatives, things that kind of show that these things are getting checked, right? we do an internship night, we connect the dots, but everything that even we speak about like getting a degree, going to school and making sure that you take everything that they have to offer and not let them use you. I got to the point where I started to realize it's like, well, the how to do that is way more nuanced and tactical than it is that you think is going to happen by osmosis. Ryan (30:04) Hmm. Justin King (30:28) Like we talked about, just speaking to a powerful alumni or building connections. Like a lot of times, athletes don't know exactly how to do these things. So that's what I run into when we talk about player development within the institution. Everybody's still there to win the games. Regardless, even if you're a player development person, everybody's trying to win. So my whole thing, even working at the league office, like, yo, who is here just objectively? Ryan (30:37) Mm-hmm. We're bottom line player development agent. We all trying to Yeah. Justin King (30:55) for the athlete, like just to tell them the truth, tell them what they need to hear, help them have their back even when they don't want somebody to have their back. Because we all know that we get to a point where you smell ourselves a little bit when you become a professional athlete or have some type of status, but like how to do those things. I always knew what it was like, I got my degree in 36 months. I made connections, but like how and connecting the dots, that was hell. That was, you don't know how to use the hammer. Ryan (31:16) Yeah. You don't know how to use a hammer, right? Like you have a hammer, but you don't know how to use a hammer. Justin King (31:24) And so that's kind of my thing is like trying to get all these tools in the athlete's hands earlier and using those tools as you're going through the process on yourself, not to wield them against anybody else, but you got to learn how to use the tools on your playset in high school. Okay. This is what I need to do. This is how I need to talk to a coach from just a earning trust. This is what need to do. Go through the recruiting process. mean, go through the recruiting process, man. That's like a, that's that's a business. transaction, you're evaluating adults. Adults are evaluating you, trust me. Very cutthroat. There's money on the table. There's a lot of learning experiences when we talk about what exactly is education. So just using this whole frame as an educational tool, that's our whole mission at LIG Sports Group is use sports as a catalyst. But in doing this, it positions us to help represent the athlete, help develop the athlete, help holistically. let the athlete reach their maximum value because we understand all the different points and gaps that the industry and systems don't want the athlete to have. You know what mean? So that's where it gets a little nuanced in those different pieces throughout the game. Ryan (32:27) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is, ⁓ it's a, it's a puzzle, you know what I'm saying? And, and the pieces of the puzzle, you know, they feel like once you figured it out, like there's always a new learning to unlock, and a new way to maybe configure the, arrange the pieces to kind of make them work for you. Because when you were talking, what was top of mind for me was around like, you know, this, this, this thing is going to evolve. And when I was reflecting on my own recruitment process, You know, I was honestly super green. was just like, Hey, one, I knew I was good. Right. So like, kind of had to your point, like, you know, walk around like, Hey, you should be here kind of type of thing. Right. But, but I didn't know, or have like a solid understanding of like the conversations or like the perspective of that coach or like when Lloyd Carr is sitting in my living room, what does that actually mean? all these other types of things that you just don't. It's hard to conceptualize as a 17, 18 year old, but now, man, like you almost have to because again, the stakes seem like they've definitely risen a bit because money is involved, right? And a lot of folks and Les Rosses, particularly for a guy who's coming out of high school, like, that's something that we

should, that probably is an episode in and of itself. Like getting a scholarship out of high school seems like a dime, not a dime a dozen. Justin King (33:42) and less Ross response. Ryan (33:56) It feels like it's exceptionally difficult to do now because a lot of teams and organizations are just like going to the portal. But it is something that I think needs to be addressed and hopefully will be addressed around just like the role of organizations and programs starting to invest into their players because ultimately a lot of these guys and athletes really go to school and leave empty handed, leave broken, leave underdeveloped. And don't even realize who they are, right? And how, again, sports as a catalyst, whether you played at Michigan, Penn State, North, I'm just, whatever school it is, like, how can you use that as a springboard for your life as opposed to looking at it as an endpoint and it's not going to ever get better from here? Because that's honestly what a lot of the messaging. that kind of comes across as like, man, this is the best it's ever going to get. So you better make the most of it. Which, you know, I honestly never subscribed to it. I was like, look, you know, I could use this to, go wherever I want to go. Right. Cause these are platforms and platforms are meant to springboard off of propeller into what's next, not take a step backwards. Justin King (35:02) Mm-hmm. if you know how to use the platform. And I think that's the, the, the messed up thing is when I worked, even worked in a Penn State, which is like, I we would graduate a lot of guys, it's a high academic institution, but I came to the realization, even working there, it's like, selling development here is almost a lot. If you don't come in prepared with certain, certain vision on what do you want to attack? Because if you come here, trying to figure out, trying to develop, trying to get on the field, like you're like this before you know it and you're out of there, right? Like, it's not really like a developmental tool because you got Ryan (35:38) Yeah, don't do much. Yeah. ⁓ Justin King (35:40) to get on the field. And then as we talk about roster cuts and bumping up, like if you're not getting better at your profession, at what you're there to, what sports you're there to play, they're going to be trying to, you know, make it a little uncomfortable for you. So even when you think about that development, I started to realize like, you know, have to be like wired coming out of house school or earlier to even be aware of the, to have a plan and be aware of the different opportunities to take full advantage of. Do you know what I mean? Because I think Ryan (36:01) You gotta have a plan. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justin King (36:09) I had a plan and it was like, it was, was a plan and I thought it was a really, really good one, but there were still tactical things that once I went through the whole business, I was like, ⁓ I didn't know that. Like I didn't know I needed to do operate with the coaches this way. I didn't, I can't say to coaches, I was always good with the coaches, more so outside of the people that dealt with me in football. How do I use the university and all these things? Because Ryan (36:27) Yeah, just a university. How do I use the university to my advantage? And all its resources. Justin King (36:34) Because now you're in the football building 25 hours, right? It is a professional operation. Now you're getting paid to do certain things. So there's different requirements that move away from the old adage of development. And I think that's critical, even when guys are picking high schools now, because you can tell the philosophies of head coaches that really lean into that development. If you're not built for the other place, man, you got to figure it out. Ryan (36:58) Yeah, it's gonna be tough. It's gonna be tough. Justin King (37:00) No, but that's why we call ourselves Sports Asset Management and Advisory and not like an agency or even sports management group. like to get like the idea that trying to transition into the framework of thinking of yourself as an asset in a healthy and holistic way and a cutthroat bottom line business is way trickier than people think. Ryan (37:19) Yeah, yeah. Cause it could show up. There's a very fine line. It feels like at times between empowerment and coddling. ⁓ And if you're not careful, you could very much so think that you're walking into an empowering situation or at least have a mindset and expectation of like, look, this, this place is here to develop me. This place is here. I believe in my coaches. I believe in the resources here, but If you don't have the wherewithal, the presence and the awareness to like figure out how to like piece that puzzle together to make it work for you, then you'll be grouped into the herd and the herd gets coddled. They just get ushered around, do the same things, but we are not the same. You know what mean? Each player on a team is an individual that has specific needs, wants, desires and interests, et cetera. And at universities large and small, It's about like finding what works for you, right? And so how can you tap into the schools, universities, and again, not be coddled or ushered around and have this like group think mentality, but how do you like flip the switch and that mindset to really start to think about yourself as an independent contractor, a CEO, who's a part of an organization, who's a part of a team at the end of the day, but you know what saying? Like you still got to figure out like what makes you tick and what. what's going to work best for you at said time at said university. Justin King (38:45) That I mean, that's 1000 % true because they have to realize like even when you're saying you're a CEO and you have a business, that's what was always told and we kind of preach that's like the name image value to name image likeness. You have to earn the right to be a CEO. You have to earn the right to even have

leverage to be pointing people around and say that right. So that's what a lot of guys will start to think in high school when they're not that good. And like, oh, I'm a CEO because this is the business opportunity. This is what I need to do. And like, but you haven't been a great worker yet. You got promoted like Ryan (39:00) Gotta clown that ladder. Yeah. Thank Justin King (39:13) So from that piece, like that's the part of the developmental process. When I'm talking about middle school and high school that you still need to absorb to become the CEO that we're talking about. Sometimes those things are skipped in football. You can be rewarded in it. We'll talk about another day, but other sports, you can't skip that because it's a genetic and trait based sport, but other sports, you have to hit certain marks in order to get there. sometimes you're not learning those. Ryan (39:34) like a ranking or, yeah. Justin King (39:37) ranking or just the fact that like, you know, you're just not going to get onto a golf course and athletically beat somebody that's been practicing five years longer than you, right? In football, you can come out, step out there, you six, two, two, I mean, you are a good football player. So I'm not saying you, but like someone of your stature and they can get out the bike. Oh, well, offer that guy. You don't know why they're, they're recruiting you. It's like, I don't know if you ask the soccer player, tennis player, a golfer or any other sport, they know exactly why. Ryan (39:44) Yeah. Right. Okay, I got you. Yeah. Justin King (40:06) they're getting recruited and what it is that they're good at and what they've been working to craft. we're skill-based sports versus genetic and trait-based. So that's why I think it gets even trickier when you're talking about the developmental process and having people in your corner that are given objective evaluations. I do that for a living. So I think that's even the separator. Where we come in is that identifying the right gaps. You know what I mean? To make sure that you're valuable for a long time. Ryan (40:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you think players start to understand this? Justin King (40:36) You introduce them to the business earlier. Right. And I think that's kind of our whole philosophy, even when we talk about speed brings opportunities. Right. So if I'm talking to 10, 11 year old athletes, they're going to be introduced to me and talking about speed as currency. like them having value. If you want to be valued, you got to learn how to run fast. If you want to learn how to run fast, then you can do these things. And so connecting different attributes to essentially cash or value in the business, I think is the starting point. Once you go there, then you start to fill in all those other pieces because that's your foundation that underwrites your career. And then you start learning about the evaluation process of what you're getting checked, getting evaluated on. It's like taking

an SAT test. If you know exactly what's going to be on there, you would prep for what's going to be on that test. And I'm just trying to say, hey, this is the test that you need to do to get into these higher levels. Let's just knock these out. You know what mean? So I think introducing the business Ryan (41:37) Yeah. Justin King (41:38) earlier and earlier to the kids in the right format, whether it's through specialized curriculums in school, whether it's outside resources for your high school education or ⁓ just like true holistic player development, like for the business and merging with the player development on the field or in the competitive arenas, that will give them, I think, a baseline to be able to take full advantage of everything that happens in college and beyond. Ryan (42:07) Yeah. And that's, is that what you mean by like a build mindset? Like building the athlete up along the way, establishing a foundation and really doing it brick by brick, piece by piece. Cause you can only do it one day at a time. like, look, let's lay this brick right here. See you tomorrow. Justin King (42:09) Yeah, I mean. it's grown a tree, right? Versus guys that are trying to run around. if like, I was an agent and had to operate like an agent, I'm just looking for like, who's the best one? Who's going to be, who's already going to be the first round draft pick next year? And I'm going to get close to him after he's already gone through the fire. And it's like, no, but the hard part is going through the fire. And then once you get into the, the big fire, like how do you stay in there and continue to get out of it? And a lot of times I think that's a gap that is lacking in all sports. You know what I mean? Well, Ryan (42:32) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Justin King (42:52) I can't even say all sports because boxers, like they have their team, it's them and a squad around them. Tennis players, squad around them. F1 racers, them squad around them. Football is the only one where it's just like you, the team, and then it's just like an agent. know what mean? So it's like how you build that process up is just extremely critical. Ryan (43:14) Yeah, yeah, it is. Man, you got me reflecting on just like my whole, and honestly, like building a team, you know, we're sitting here talking about it, like, know, the steps in theory, it makes sense. ⁓ and at times can feel simple, but you know, and just my own reflection, like, you know, there, there are areas and opportunities where I'm like, man, I definitely could have been more intentional about building a better team or, ⁓ having the Justin King (43:18) You Ryan (43:41) right and or additional resources around me. But a lot of that too was kind of my own hubris that got in the way of like, Oh, you know, I think I'm good. You know what saying? Cause you know, a lot of times when you think about some of these athletes, you think about the extreme, right? Like you think about the either the extreme spender or the guy that's on the

fringe who's, you know, constantly in trouble, but is a, you know, supreme talent, et cetera. And, but. Justin King (43:48) lot of times. Ryan (44:09) there's a very real reality for athletes who don't kind of fit that mold. Still great athletes in their own right, but just, you know, just like, look, I got this, I'm good. And that was me. Like, I'm like, you know, you ain't got to worry about me getting in trouble or anything with the law, but like, you know, feel like I'm smart enough to kind of understand this. Like I could do it. You know what I mean? Like I want to learn what these people are talking about, et cetera. But that's what I was saying earlier around like, man, sometimes you just gotta, you gotta one, make sure that you understand and know, but then two, Justin King (44:20) Yep. Ryan (44:39) ⁓ There has to be like a constant feedback loop, constant communication. ⁓ And I think just like a builder's mindset that's agreed upon between both parties, right? Like ⁓ whether it be your tax attorney, whether that be your agent, whether that be your financial advisor, like there's a huge opportunity to empower, to teach, to educate so that you can know for yourself. It's like, you know, the ad is teaching men to fish. Like teach men to fish. Justin King (45:06) 100%. Ryan (45:08) ⁓ And then, you know, their lives will be more fulfilled, richer, stronger, et cetera. But I was sometimes trying to teach myself to fish. And it was like, bro, like you know, but you don't know, you don't have that lived experience. Justin King (45:17) And as. And I and you're 100 % correct. I agree. I let Pinsday I was on things. Let's even like this academic stuff is easy. I graduated 36 months. I'm not talking about me until you start. That's not me until you like, shit, it is me. Like I need this that and the third and it's like and now it's just happening sooner and sooner and I think it's really important when we talk about that empowering me because because you're getting judged as you're going through the business to even work in the business. Ryan (45:31) Yeah, I'm good. That's not me. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely me. 1000 % me. ⁓ Justin King (45:49) and how people view you. I think being equipped not only gives you confidence, it empowers you, but it gives you the tools to use sports as a catalyst. Because that's not just an ⁓ osmosis birthright that you play and you get things from this game. You have to be prepared and strategically positioned with the right people around you to be able to see it. And that's what we try to do at, that's what we do at LIG Sports Group. know what mean? Sports asset management. And it's... Ryan (46:06) Yeah. Yeah. Justin King (46:18) It's critical. a sports asset, you got to make sure that the holistic viewpoint is on point to reach your maximum value. Ryan (46:22) Yeah. And that viewpoint is important because what my thought is that like a lot of times as athletes, we have a viewpoint on how people look at us from a fan

perspective, right? Like it's either online, it's on social media, it's your family members talking in the air. And that could be a totally different viewpoint with a different lens perspective, expectations in the ones who are signing the checks and making the decisions. And it's really that nuance and that that difference ⁓ of viewpoints that one, you just gotta be aware of, like, hey, there's another side of the viewpoint that I need that's important to this whole equation. But then two, finding the ways to develop yourself and also the tools, building yourself up to understand what those folks are saying and how you can use that feedback loop to ultimately advance your career. Justin King (47:18) I mean, that's it. Find the gap, close the gap. That's how you become a desirable asset in this business, whether you want to become a professional athlete, you want to work as a coach trainer, work in corporate America, or whatever the case may be. People invest in desired growth, right? If you know how to grow in this business, I think that's where athletes really need that support. And that's the support that we try to provide at LIG. And especially when you start coming from a tactical Ryan (47:35) Yeah. Justin King (47:47) personnel standpoint, like being able to talk to you about the business from the development side, the business, the business side of monetizing your likeness and development and whether you are as a sports asset, but also being able to get under the hood and help you develop as an athlete holistically is something that we just do a little bit different. Like you said, that's the building mentality versus the chasing. I feel like going after finding that agent is a little bit chasing, going out searching for offers is chasing. We always talk about maintaining our power internally and understanding what things we can pull on our own accord. And I think when you do that, that's really empowering. And once you get through this whole jungle, you get out as a different type of beast. And that's what we're trying to produce, create, and help guide here at LIG Sports Group and Blue Chip Academy. But yeah, man. Ryan (48:34) Here we go, man. Well, that's it for this episode, y'all. Just to kind of recap, the game has changed, if you haven't noticed by now. And we're here to break that game down for you all. Models are changing, they're broken. Conversations need to happen, but really it's all centered around like making sure that athletes feel empowered ⁓ and supported along their journey and have a new... Justin King (48:44) Thank Ryan (49:02) involved and engaged type of partner moving forward to really help them maximize opportunity. Cause that's what it's all about. We're here to win. We're here to maximize opportunities, but it's all about how you go about doing that. So if you're an athlete, a parent, a coach, and you're asking yourself, like, you know, if you're circling around the wrong people, if something in your gut is just like, you know, like, something feels a little off here, then you know, right. And that's your call to action. ⁓ to gut check where you are with things and who's supporting your athlete. And if you're the athlete who's supporting you. And also, if nothing else, make sure that you check out LIG Sports Group because there are resources available to you. Blue Chip Academy, there are resources available to you. So until next time, we'll check out next week. Hope you all have a blessed one. See y'all soon. Justin King (49:50) And we out.