התמלול המלא של Interrogating Systemic Injustices in Schools featuring Decoteau J. Irby

00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:41.600 Do no harm. 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:47.839 I understand that do no harm is, I believe, the oath that medical professionals take. 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:55.360 I feel like do no harm, everyone who works with anybody, especially our young people, should be taken. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:09.600 During the live stream, I open with just something that happened recent, as recent as the live stream, which was done about at the time of this posting about a month ago. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:21.759 I teach, um, not only do I teach at a community college, I teach for um a dual enrollment program for young people who have decided to leave their home high schools for a myriad of reasons. 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:28.639 And we had that morning, right before the live stream that night, we had a really good discussion. 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:33.759 Because I'm still, I was still getting to know my students at that time, just to get a sense of like what their homeschools were like. 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:44.879 And some of the stuff that they told me, I'm just like, I went to an urban high school over 20 years ago, which was very prison, school-to-prison pipeline, and it still exists today, but it's worse. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:46.399 It's now K through 12. 00:06:46.560 --> 00:07:11.040 And just some of the stories they told me, I'm like, oh my God, I'm now understanding why we get the students that we get in the college setting who have extremely high anxiety, who are working through learned helplessness and struggling to just exist. 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.959 I have so many stories, I won't go into them here. 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:16.160 Um, Dr. 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:20.079 Erby during our conversation shares some really good things. 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:26.399 As you listen to this conversation and then share it with others and review it afterwards. 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:27.279 Dignity. 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:36.399 Dignity is a word that I really want you to think about as you listen to this episode and as you continue the conversations that Dr. 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.360 Irby offered. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.879 I want to do a special shout out to my colleagues, Dr. 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:55.839 Vanessa Martinez and Professor Ro Guterres from Holyoke Community College, who lended questions during this conversation, which added even more richness to the discussion. 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.360 Thank you so much for listening to today's episode, and I hope that you enjoy our conversation as much as I did. 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:16.560 Good evening. 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.600 Thank you. 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:20.000 Thank you so much for the introduction. 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:23.199 We are in for a ride tonight. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:29.680 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:30.480 Me too. 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:32.559 So I'll go ahead and turn it over to you to read. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:34.559 Happy reading, and I'll be back to chat. 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:35.440 Sounds good. 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:35.840 Thank you. 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:48.639 So I'm gonna be reading from uh, as you mentioned, uh my book, Stuck Improving Racial Equity and School Leadership, which was published uh five years ago, actually this month in September of 2021. 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:59.679 Um I'm gonna be reading uh from a section in chapter four, uh, which is a section, section a chapter that is called Collective Awareness of Racial Emotions and Beliefs. 00:08:59.840 --> 00:09:10.080 And throughout this chapter, I present several vignettes of different ways that people engage in what I call racial self-talk, um, to kind of make sense of their experiences. 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:16.559 And so I'm gonna read a little bit from the introduction, and then I'm gonna read um a vignette that actually features myself. 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:20.159 And I'd be happy to talk a little bit about how this vignette got into the book. 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:22.000 It wasn't in the original draft. 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:23.919 So I'll get started. 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:28.559 Talk is not merely talk, speaking is action. 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:34.639 Speaking yields outcomes, generates consequences, and creates possibilities. 00:09:34.960 --> 00:09:47.440 Racial self-talk is a developmental process whereby people openly wrestle with their own thoughts about racism, racial dilemmas, and their own role in perpetuating or challenging racism. 00:09:47.679 --> 00:09:52.639 Racial self-talks are internal dialogues made public through the act of speaking. 00:09:52.879 --> 00:10:16.000 When people at Central Waters High School, where I conducted this research, self-talked, it was done as a practice of convincing themselves to take some position on a matter, to double down, uh, to acknowledge the trouble with, or even to affirm they were justified and right to challenge their own beliefs, practices, and patterns of behavior. 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:37.120 I grew attuned to racial self-talk when people said things like, I could hear an insert black or brown person voice in my head, or I'm thinking like this, or my thinking may be wrong here, or this reminds me of what I read and it makes me think. 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:45.440 In some instances, people self-talk to me, in other instances, people self-talk to others. 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:53.200 The self-talk was usually deeply personal and emotional and used to make sense of a specific racial experience. 00:10:53.440 --> 00:11:06.159 In some ways, self-talk is akin to in-the-moment personal racial narratives, but unlike personal narratives, is grounded in real time and references proximal problems and dilemmas. 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:15.679 To the unrefined ear, racial self-talk can sound like incoherent speech, rambling, stupid questions, and complaining. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:21.440 I want to challenge this

inclination to write people off as though they don't know what they're talking about. 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:31.600 If a person of color can't quite put into words why they hate the police, it makes their disdain and critique no less legitimate. 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:36.000 People's ridiculous talk is a learning resource. 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:46.879 If a white person can't quite put into words why they hold the police in high regard, it doesn't mean that they cannot or will never achieve an understanding of why U.S. 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:49.600 policing is racist and problematic. 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:57.440 Critically, racial self-talk does not intend to sway or convince others, it confronts the self. 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:07.200 It's incoherent, it's an incoherence, is a search for racial understanding that creates possibilities for consciousness raising. 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:17.759 The invisibility of racial emotions and beliefs gives them probound power because disrupting or changing what is not noticeable is very difficult. 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:32.320 Publicly sharing one's thinking about racial emotions and beliefs is critical for organizational improvement because when individuals make their thought processing available for others, it becomes a resource for collective racial learning. 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:56.399 Racial self-talk is a critically important practice because it cultivates self-and-collective awareness of racial emotions and beliefs that in turn enables people to challenge their own racist thinking, recognize their racial knowledge gaps, and hopefully try on ways of thinking and behaving that support racial equity changes. 00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:59.279 And I'm going to move forward to my opening vignette. 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:07.759 In the 2015-16 academic year, school board meetings were a flashpoint for confrontation. 00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:11.759 The district was under intense scrutiny for its improvement efforts. 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:17.919 The previous year, the district quietly adopted a district-wide equity and continuous improvement policy. 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.159 Advanced placement classes had been integrated at the highest rates ever. 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.080 Teachers who left the school still lived in and around Central Waters. 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.879 The high school was indeed the talk of the town. 00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:34.480 Parents and local media crowded into Central Waters district office boardroom to demand answers. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.159 What are you going to do to get control of the school? 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:44.159 The divisions that surfaced when the school a year earlier now existed within the community. 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:50.159 The debates, divisions, and corners were identical, but the people having them differed. 00:13:50.399 --> 00:14:02.240 Without saying it directly, parents armed with anecdotal accounts from students and teachers determined that Central Waters' problems was black students' misbehavior at school. 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:09.279 A newly elected school board member, a white male who had been a student at the school corroborated their claims. 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.480 The dominant white narrative went like this. 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:20.080 Administrators coddled disruptive black kids who would benefit from punishment, not support. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:22.320 The good students deserve report. 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:27.519 Making the school more orderly and safe required removing bad students. 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:41.440 The pack room of impassionate white parents regarded clear rules, consequences, enforcement of those rules, and ultimately application of consequences as the keys to getting the school back in order. 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:54.320 So when the district's new equity director, Dean, school administrators, asked me to offer the board expert testimony about Central Waters discipline and climate reforms, I half-heartedly agreed. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:03.600 I wanted to be a team player and be supportive, yet I anticipated that none of the research I was prepared to present would matter. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:25.200 Black and brown people who could offer an experiential counter to their positions did not routinely attend the board meetings. 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:28.080 So I sat in the front row with the administrators. 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.360 I looked back and I noticed a black woman and a black teenage girl in attendance. 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:41.200 For better or worse, and although I never met or had seen them, I found comfort in having them there. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:43.759 My presentation was well put together. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.919 Had I been in an academic conference, it would have likely been well received. 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:56.960 Elizabeth and Ethan, the two folks that I worked with during the project, provided an overview of the discipline, culture, and climate reform efforts underway at the school. 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:08.320 I piggybacked by laying out the research on the harms of zero tolerance era reforms, as well as the potential for restorative approaches to pave a new path for the school. 00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:23.919 I concluded by telling the board that in many regards, the work underway at Central Waters High School was cutting edge and that it would take time and that it was aligned with what was regarded as developmentally appropriate for students. 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:31.919 As soon as the board opened the floor for attendee comments, it was clear that I was not at an academic conference. 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.320 The public testimony kicked off. 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:39.600 Parents and communities and community members unleashed a fury of white rage. 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:41.360 We sat and listened. 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:43.279 My kids don't feel safe. 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.840 What are you

going to do about it? 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:47.759 This used to be a good school. 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.879 You're letting those kids ruin the school. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:52.720 What are you going to do? 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:54.559 This is unacceptable. 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.679 I expected all of the racially coded comments. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:07.759 What I didn't expect was that the three-person black community I imagined minutes earlier would become three black people at a board meeting. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.680 She stood up and said, My name is Camille. 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:17.200 I'm a 10th grader at Central Waters, and I'm here to talk about the problems at Central Waters. 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:23.039 There are students who are disrespectful to teachers, they curse in the hallways, and they have no respect. 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:25.599 They don't care about school. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:28.240 And the administrators don't do anything. 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:32.640 They know they won't get into trouble, so they don't care. 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.160 I exchanged glances with Elizabeth and Ethan what was happening. 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:45.359 We sat stone-faced and contemplative, listening to this courageous young black student speak her truth. 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:58.880 As the racial universe would have it, Camille, one student out of more than 1,600 just happened to feel so compelled to speak that she convinced her mother to bring her to the board meeting. 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.359 She put her name on the comments list as she rightfully can and should have. 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.680 And she used her two minutes to speak with passion and eloquence. 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:12.880 She continued, most of the students who don't care are black. 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:13.839 I care. 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.880 They're probably not bad people, but maybe they just need some more help or something. 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:19.680 I don't know. 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:28.799 But I just wanted to say that I think something should be done because they ruin the school for those of us who want to learn, and they make black students like me look bad. 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:30.000 Like we don't care. 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.200 I do care. 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.559 Students speak your truth. 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:35.920 Your voice matters. 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:41.440 Well, we ate our own words, swallowed our actions, and tasted our own recommendations. 00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:44.720 We never collectively processed Camille's comments. 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:49.200 So I can't speak for Elizabeth and Ethan, but I personally was annoyed. 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:54.559 I appreciated Camille's initiative, but I was annoyed at the chance of it all. 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:55.680 Why now? 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:56.880 Why Camille? 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.960 Why, why, why? 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.680 How inconvenient

a time and place and an audience for her remarks. 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.680 After the board meeting wrapped up, I didn't stick around for small talk. 00:19:07.839 --> 00:19:12.240 It was later than I usually remained at the district, and I had a long drive ahead of me. 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:18.400 I thank people for listening to my remarks, and I proceeded to quietly sneak out to the parking lot. 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.640 I was more than halfway to my car when I heard a voice behind me. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.200 Excuse me, excuse me. 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:28.799 I just wanted to tell you that we are not racist. 00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.519 We are not racist. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.839 And you're here making my kid think she's a racist and she's not. 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:38.400 This school used to be a good school. 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:43.279 I raised my family here, we've been here, we work hard, and we are not racist. 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:48.960 As more people trickled into the parking lot, they slowed their steps to listen in. 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.119 Some kept moving, some stopped to give their full attention. 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.799 Those who stopped nodding in agreement, co-signing her words. 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.400 I stood and listened. 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.440 She continued, and she was closer and closer to me. 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:03.119 It's not true. 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.799 You think that you know something because you read a research study. 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.160 Well, I'm not a racist. 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.440 I know I'm not a racist, and my daughter is not a racist. 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.119 She put her head down and started to cry. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:18.640 A white man put his arm around her to console her. 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:24.319 As I stood, I glanced up to see Camille's mother standing a short distance away. 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:32.240 The white woman looked back up at me and she pointed her finger at me and pronounced to the onlookers, he needs to stop lying. 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:34.000 She looked at me. 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.240 I calmly replied, I appreciate that you share how you're feeling. 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:40.240 And I turned to walk away. 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.240 I scanned the parking lot and caught eyes with Camille's mother. 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.799 She maneuvered through the dispersing crowd. 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:52.000 That was an interesting exchange, Camille's mom said, now within arm's reach. 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.359 She's drunk as hell, I smugly replied. 00:20:55.759 --> 00:21:00.720 The other woman had been so close for me that I could smell her breath as she talked. 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.680 Camille's mother and I shook our heads at the absurdity and giggled like old friends. 00:21:05.920 --> 00:21:12.480 The three seconds or so of mutual laughter erased the discomfort and pain of the prior interaction. 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:15.759 It was just enough to make room for affirmation. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.079 Camille's mom said to me, Dr. 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.440 Irby, I want to thank you. 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:22.880 I'm glad you're here and I appreciate the work you're doing with the school. 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:26.640 The school has a lot of issues, and I don't think they could do it alone. 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:28.799 Your presentation was spot on. 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.519 They are benefiting from you being there. 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:40.880 Now, I do not agree with my daughter, and I try to help her understand how her thinking is part of the problem, but she has her own mind and I encourage her to use it. 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:43.759 I support her in expressing her voice. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.799 I'm interested in talking more with her about tonight. 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:49.039 She'll get it as she gets older. 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:54.960 At any rate, I wanted to thank you and encourage you to hang in there and to keep up the good work. 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:56.640 I replied, Thank you. 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:58.000 I really appreciate it. 00:21:58.319 --> 00:22:02.000 Camille's mom says to me, Safe travels on your return home. 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:05.920 About five minutes after I left the building, I was in my car. 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:06.720 Finally. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.920 It dawned on me that I was drained. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:16.880 As I buckled my seatbelt, self-doubt, disbelief, and frustration flooded my emotional well. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:21.119 Did this white lady just confront me in the parking lot? 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:24.720 I turned my attention to the oncoming traffic. 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:31.119 As I waited to turn right out of the parking lot to race back home, I couldn't get out of Central Waters fast enough. 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.519 Yes, she did. 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.039 She definitely confronted me in the parking lot. 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.000 My internal dialogue was scattered. 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.920 I felt disrespected, angry, and embarrassed. 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.680 Then I felt exhausted, then inadequate. 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:52.480 Over the duration of my drive home, I felt defeated for a span of 10 minutes. 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.079 Then for the next five, I laughed at the whole situation. 00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:05.599 Perhaps my attempt to find humor in the episode was a means to smooth over the hurt, to keep myself from crying or being overcome with hatred. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:15.519 I remembered the warmth of Camille's mother and the way she, a black mother, knew exactly what to do to offer me respite in my moment of racial duress. 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:17.519 So I felt appreciative. 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:19.839 Anger then crept back in. 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.160 White trash, I thought. 00:23:28.079 -->

00:23:30.559 It was unwieldy racial discomfort. 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.720 I pondered why do I keep driving all the way out here? 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.160 I told myself I don't have to do this. 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:40.079 Thank you. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:45.359 Oh, there's so much to talk about. 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:51.759 And I promised you off camera, I'm gonna have you on for just an hour. 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.119 So I'm gonna make sure to keep, I'm gonna honor that promise. 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.480 Yeah, it's all good. 00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:57.359 Let's do it. 00:23:57.440 --> 00:23:58.160 It's all good. 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:20.000 So, Dakota, the first question I have for you is, and typically I ask this question towards the end of the interview, but I think your subjectivity kind of informs your approach to writing, your approach to showing up as a scholar, educator, and your approach to showing up as an activist and a father. 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:24.799 So prior to having our guests on Black Writers Read, we ask each of them why they write. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:26.319 Here's what you offered. 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:31.039 I want to help educators understand their roles in shaping the lives of black and brown children. 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:37.839 So my question to you is when did you first discover that you needed to be on the forefront of doing this work? 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.839 That's a good question. 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.720 I I think that it goes back to um when I was in Philadelphia, I did my graduate work in Philadelphia at Temple University. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:54.640 Um I call myself an accidental educator, like a lot of people. 00:24:54.799 --> 00:25:04.640 Um I initially started working with um high school students and people who had young people who had left high school, who were out of former high school spaces. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:10.880 Um and I think I just started to really understand through that time period. 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:19.839 Um, this was 2002 to 2008, how the systems are really harmful for young people, for children. 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:28.160 And I'm saying this is from, you know, the GED program where I taught adjudicated youth. 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:30.960 Um, the system and the programs didn't work for them. 00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:38.319 But then also when I was teaching at Temple University, I had a lot of uh black men in my classes and the system didn't work for them either. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:47.680 Um, I remember one time when um I had, I taught the school that was called like black males in urban society or something like that. 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:51.279 And I used to get a lot of um athletes come to this class. 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.680 I don't know why the advising system for some reason I used to get a lot of athletes. 00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:58.400 And a lot of athletes at Temple were black males. 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.079 I had a

lot of football players. 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:07.519 Um, and I remember we would be in class, and I would see some of their writing that was so low quality. 00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:14.160 Um and I remember I had this one student and I asked him, I, you know, I gave feedback on this paper. 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.240 I had them write like a, you know, a basic three to five paragraph response paper. 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.200 He wrote his paper and came back to class, and um I had marked up his paper. 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.680 There was no punctuation in the whole paper. 00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:27.759 Whole paper, no punctuation. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:32.400 And I remember I said, you know, wrote on his paper like I want you to come and see me after class. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:39.039 So he comes up and um I said, you know, he said, you know, my you told me that you want to see my paper. 00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:39.680 I said, yeah. 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:43.119 I said, um, you know, you don't have any punctuation in your paper. 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:48.000 Like, you know, I need you to help me understand what's and so I I did a basic exercise with him. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.839 I said, read your paper. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:51.279 So he starts reading it. 00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:54.559 He has these natural pauses because when we talk, we have these natural pauses. 00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.000 So he started to make his natural pause. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:01.039 I was like, that's supposed to be a sentence, that's supposed to be a period or a comma, right? 00:27:01.519 --> 00:27:02.799 Just off a basis. 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.079 And so I gave him the paper. 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:10.079 I said, read it out loud to me, because clearly you're thinking about these issues, but read it out loud to me. 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.400 And every time you get ready to pause, we're gonna either put a comma or a period. 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:17.279 We went through, we did the whole thing. 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:25.759 We finished, and I said, moving forward, where if you got to go to the writing center or whatever you got to do, I don't think you need to go to the writing center. 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:30.400 You need to have periods and commas throughout your paper next time. 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:35.279 And he looked at me and he was just like, I appreciate it. 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:39.599 The next time he turned in the paper, he had all the punctuation there. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:45.680 And he came up to me and was like, I appreciate you because nobody ever told me that. 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:52.799 And I was just like, I mean, I'm looking around, I'm upset at like everybody at the university. 00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:57.839 I'm upset at I'm upset at everybody because nobody told you this. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.160 Nobody gave you this feedback. 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:41.440 Um and so I feel like it that was a that was a really um

that moment, and there's so many other moments, so many other stories I could tell around my uh interactions um working with young people um in Philadelphia, they really just made me feel like I really want to place my lens and analysis on the question of why are these organizations, despite people's, you know, you know, claims to like good intention, why are these organizations systematically failing black children and brown children and children who uh are not white. 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.119 Um and the system also fails a lot of white children, by the way, too. 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:55.359 Um, but disproportionately and the amount of harm done uh for black children is something that I always have found incredibly troubling. 00:28:55.519 --> 00:28:56.559 I still do. 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.720 Uh, but some of those kind of up-close experiences were the reason that I started to think about, you know, writing. 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.680 And I also feel like I'm a pretty laid-back patient person. 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:20.000 And so I've always felt like I could get into and be a part of spaces and hear stories and experiences that a lot of people would have the patience to learn from. 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:30.240 So, you know, even the vignette, the the section I wrote about Central Waters, like I worked for years in this racially hostile environment. 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:42.319 Um, and a lot of it was because I was curious about uh how and why people will continue to perpetuate harm um against, you know, black kids who ain't done nothing to them. 00:29:42.960 --> 00:29:54.319 Um and so I think some of my like laid-backness and curiosity um is one of the reasons that I was I I was able to get access. 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.799 And sometimes I can get access to spaces and people and communities. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:06.000 I think in some regards, the less so the more kind of like I get, you know, the PhD and the, you know, all that kind of stuff. 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:20.079 But sometimes I have access to spaces that a lot of folks don't have access to, combined with my willingness to write about it in a honest as way possible, um, without trying to like, you know, demean or degrade people. 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:23.839 Uh so the vignette that I wrote initially was not in the book. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:31.279 Um, I gave a copy to members of this predominantly white school community where I did this research. 00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:38.079 And um one of the pieces of feedback that they gave me after reading a first draft of the book was that I wasn't in the book. 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:46.880 Like they were like, you wrote yourself out of the story, and our school community wouldn't be what it is and where it is if you weren't a part of it. 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:55.119 And we really want to encourage you to put your voice and your honest rawness into this, the the book. 00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:04.000 And so in that particular place, I added that vignette because I wanted to tell them a story and my own racial kind of thinking that they had never heard from me before. 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:09.759 Because those were the kind of things that I would just I would be a researcher and I would just listen and observe and watch. 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:18.319 And then I'd go home, but I would never tell any about anyone about the the narrative that was in my head on the car ride when I was leaving from the school site. 00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:20.559 Nice. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:28.160 So thank you for mentioning that because like one of the things so I teach for folks, I'm an assistant professor of English at a Hispanic serving institution. 00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:39.200 And my training um that got me here is like English, arts management, theater, and then I have my doctorate in education. 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:46.799 And I remember, so like in teaching English, like one of the things that come up is you can't write the I. 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:48.880 And I'm like, why not? 00:31:49.119 --> 00:32:02.559 Like, and I tell my students, like when we are analyzing text, that is the first tool of literary analysis, is taking our personal experiences and seeing how they mirror that of the character. 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:13.359 And this is why, you know, like a lot of black and brown kids, when they come to me in college, they tend to be really quiet when I'm like, you know, like say we try to do a close reading of a passage, everybody quiet. 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:24.079 And I was like, I told y'all, I don't know how many times, y'all do not need to know what a metaphor is and the symbolism and like all of these big terms in order to analyze what you are reading. 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:43.839 Like, literally, you need like take your personal experience because I purposefully at the HSI, I teach books, like I work tooth and nail to find books that are specifically written from the perspective and about black and brown people who look like my students. 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:45.519 And I fight. 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:48.640 I'm like, nope, I am not teaching the Iliad. 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:52.640 Nope, I am not teaching, no, I am not, I am not teaching. 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.680 Um, because I'm looking at my bookshelf right now, the books that I was forced to teach in the past, Gilgamesh and Macbeth. 00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:59.359 Students have access to that elsewhere. 00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.640 Students get to me in college, many of them, it broke my heart. 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:07.039 Like I had a lot of adult, like because where I teach is a mix of adult learners and traditional age students. 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:15.440 I had a 50-year-old man who said, I have never read a book by a black writer ever in my education. 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:18.079 And this broke, and I'm about to go on a tangent, my apologies. 00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:22.240 And it broke my heart because

one, I grew up in Detroit in Detroit at the time, and I was there. 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.240 I graduated from high school in '97. 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:25.200 I'm not ashamed of my age. 00:33:25.279 --> 00:33:27.519 I'm gonna be 47 in a couple of weeks. 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:30.880 The school system was so blackity, blackity black. 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:42.240 I remember I was in like sixth or seventh grade when the Malcolm X movie came out in middle school, and the middle school rented the entire movie theater, and we went to go see and like all of the things that I had access to. 00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:49.119 But then I come here to New England um in 2007, and I'm meeting all these people, and they're just like, like, I've never and I've never read it, da da da. 00:33:49.839 --> 00:34:09.280 And so you have this paradox of we're being told, you know, people who teach English and humanities and cultural studies that people cannot write the I in their work, and that if they do not have these big words in terms of analyzing text, then they don't belong in the classroom. 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:10.719 And I'm just like, okay. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:20.639 Like I and so when it came to my dissertation, and it took a long time to grapple with, shout out to um BayPath's Educational Leadership Program. 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.199 I was a member of the second graduating cohort. 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:30.559 Um, I'll never forget my um dissertation chair was like, one, we're in a complete different discipline. 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:32.559 We are this dissertation is education. 00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:42.880 She's like, if I do not see you in here and mentioning what brought you to writing about this topic and how you relate to this topic, she was like, What's the point? 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:56.159 And so now all of my writing, including my creative writing, I find a way to show up, even if it's fiction and things like that, because we already have too many things telling us to be silent. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:02.400 So it's like telling us to be silent in the ways that we create, silent in the ways that we exist as humans. 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:04.960 So I'm just like, yeah, there's a whole lot to talk about. 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:09.199 So I'm actually glad that you had an opportunity to write a vignette. 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:18.880 Because for folks, if you do not know about the academic space, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to have public intellectuals on this season. 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:29.039 People don't like people are like, which is true, there's books that are written for academia, and you have brilliant people writing, but it doesn't live outside of that, and only it's incestuous. 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:34.400 Like people who are of the academy are reading this work and it's not impactful. 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:55.119 And I've known so many academics who have written powerful things that can translate into community-based work, but because they're using all this high-falum language and all this other stuff, and the academic publishers are making them do this and that and not like talking in the eye and all of that, they're not able to translate the work into something functional and practical. 00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.679 And that was my whole thing when I was getting my doctorate. 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:03.440 I was just like, okay, like if we read this, these articles and stuff like that, and I'm just like, okay, how can we make this practical? 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:08.719 How can we like how do we how how do we turn this into like community-based work? 00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:17.360 Because I'm like, I feel like that needs to be the moment that academia takes this turn. 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:26.400 And plus, also, I think a lot of it too is centered in whiteness and this whole notion of the expert and all these other things, and like people want to talk just within their own circle. 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:27.920 Yeah, I can go on all night about it. 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:36.719 And yes, I'm going on a tangent, but y'all, y'all don't understand how much I am fangirling this work and how much I was looking forward to having Dakota on this evening. 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.800 So I just want to put that out there. 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.320 No, I mean, I think you know, you know, you make like these really good points. 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:56.800 I feel like um I was very pleased with um the book Stuck Improving and the voice and the way that I was able, um, the way that I wrote it. 00:36:56.960 --> 00:37:08.800 Um, it is a very, I would argue, um, deeply intellectual book, but it's not written in a way that, you know, it's it's a critical race theory book. 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:09.599 Um, right. 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:16.480 And it's uh it fits within the canon of like an academia we would call like critical whiteness studies and critical race research. 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:29.280 Uh, but there's, you know, a few footnotes, but there's not like a bunch of citations giving people a literature review of you know all the theory, you know, like I was just like, we jumping right in. 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:38.400 And I I really appreciated um, you know, the opportunity to really be able to write it as a story, um, and and add the analysis in there. 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:48.320 But you know, how I structured the book was that each um each introduction has, you know, maybe two pages of setting up what's gonna happen. 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.079 And then I just went into stories. 00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:51.840 I just went into storytelling mode. 00:37:52.000 --> 00:38:07.039 And the thing that I've appreciated most over this last five years is that when people read it, some parents, some educators, many of them say that when I was reading the book, this felt like my school or this felt like my community. 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:34.559 And when

I hear people say that, I realized that I accomplished uh what I what I hope to accomplish with the book was to write in such a deep kind of uh uh qualitatively kind of like rich and descriptive uh approach that um it feels familiar to people, uh even if it's not their story, the story still feels familiar. 00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:40.000 And I feel like that to me is what um I was hoping to accomplish when I wrote the book. 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:58.639 So it is an academic book, it's you know published on an academic press, um, but the the style and approach of it is um much more aligned with like the kind of storytelling that, you know, draws people into, you know, like as I just read, the parking lot. 00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:01.920 Like I wanted people to feel like they was in the parking lot with me, you know what I mean? 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.400 Um, so that's what I was really trying to accomplish. 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:19.840 And so I know that before we got on, you talked about this uh story of this uh this kid, Kevin, who was at the school who had an experience of racism when he was trying to, you know, um get get some get some food at lunch. 00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:22.480 And that is another kind of vignette. 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:27.920 And I opened up the book um with you know, vignettes, it's like stories, stories, stories. 00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:33.119 And a lot of people are just like, you know, the story of Kevin resonates with people. 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.920 And that was somebody who is a real person, right? 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.440 I changed his name and everything, but it was it was actually what happened. 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:49.760 But instead of reporting it like, you know, you know, this happened together, I wrote it like this is we we walked down here together, right? 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:54.400 And and I set up and I and I use a lot of you know dialogue in the book. 00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:57.760 And some of that comes from my um theater background. 00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:13.360 We talked a little bit about that, but my theater background and my you know, my love for hip-hop, where you know, you have hip-hop, you know, artists who really are able to like paint these really, really clear, like Wu-Tang clan or you know, Ghostface. 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:20.480 They paint these really clear narratives where it's just like, I'm I'm there, I'm here with you, or ghetto boys, mind playing tricks on me. 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:25.440 Like we was, we was in the street with Bushwick Bill on Halloween night. 00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:26.960 You know what I mean? 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:53.840 So that's those are the kind of like in particular, kind of like uh, you know, black literary traditions that I really um trying to draw from and bring into my academic writing, which is why a lot of times my academic writing feels different than um how a lot of other uh academics research reporting and writing actually sounds and feels. 00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:11.199 So I actually have since um your discipline is in um in education, and this is a this is a question because I told you off air, I may be popping some questions in there that were not on the original thing that I sent off. 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:21.119 So I've always so I know I know the like logistical reason for this, but I would love for you to talk about. 00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:31.199 So your book is filled with stories, so qualitative analysis in terms of providing personal stories as you know a tool. 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:40.000 And I know for a lot of schools in education, they're like you have to get the quantitative, you have to get the numbers to represent what is going on, and da-da-da-da. 00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:52.559 So I would love to hear from you like why, when it comes to reporting how schools are doing, why they lean so heavily on the quantitative and not the qualitative. 00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:08.079 You know, I guess it's um I guess it's an attempt to be like objective, but I mean, look, stories matter so much. 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:14.320 I mean, I think about like Nicole Hannah Jones' piece that just came out, it's blew the internet up, you know what I mean? 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:20.639 Like, and it was a story, and whether people identified with uh Dr. 00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:31.599 Hannah Jones, or whether they identified with her daughter, or whether they identified with the principal at that school, like people could see their worries, fears, and anxieties in these different people. 00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:37.039 And the numbers depersonalize, um, they're they're important, right? 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:39.840 They help us understand trends and patterns and that sort of thing. 00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:59.760 But if she would have written a story just outlining the, you know, proficiency, growth, graduation rates, ACT scores of the students in the various schools that she was writing about and gave a comparison from them, nobody would, nobody would have read it. 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.599 Um, and even if they did read, they wouldn't have talked about it. 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:26.400 Um, so I think that like stories and you know, well-roundedness in terms of like the people we're writing about, um, well-rounded, I don't want to say character, but like painting a rich picture of the complexity of like human decisions and human experiences, that's the stuff that like in my that's what resonates. 00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:31.760 Um and even in terms of I remember I took this uh years ago. 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.960 This was uh I I was at University Wisconsin-Milwaukee. 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:41.360 And when I was in Milwaukee, I participated in uh this program called Center for Progressive Leaders. 00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:49.119 And it was really, really uh eye opening experience for me because at that time in my career, I was an early career scholar. 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:59.599 Um, and

I was trying to figure out how do I how do I make the research that I conduct more impactful um to policymakers. 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:10.480 To um, you know, people who can be influential in terms of making decisions and also to everyday people, to give everyday people the information that they need. 00:44:10.639 --> 00:44:13.679 Like people can't remember statistics, but they remember stories. 00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:18.159 People remember uh people's experiences and people's stories. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:39.840 Um, and so during that, during that fellowship, we learned a lot about um the power of storytelling and framing um and figuring out like how you tell a story in a way that uh conveys a particular set of values um that you know and that sticks with people, right? 00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:47.840 Um there's some numbers that stick with people, but uh, you know, stories stick with people forever and they get passed down through the word. 00:44:48.239 --> 00:45:04.400 And so if we really want to write and produce um the kind of scholarship that uh impacts people to where uh they uh they want to make decisions and make change, then we have to do it through stories. 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:14.079 I mean, if we think about Ronald Reagan and this idea of the welfare cream, welfare queen, you know, powerful story, right? 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:15.119 You know what I'm saying? 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.719 Like uh and used to drive a bunch of policies. 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:37.760 So I feel like um an over-reliance on quantitative presentations to frame problems uh is a missed opportunity to understand the humanity and experience behind all of those numbers. 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.079 Yeah, so this leads us into this great question. 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:50.719 So, for folks who may be unfamiliar with this particular field of study, can you offer an overview of what educational policy studies is, which is your field? 00:45:50.880 --> 00:46:02.639 And then how does research done in this field lend itself to praxis, like policy, both in national and regional legislation, curriculum development, and coaching and training leaders at educational institutions? 00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:03.760 Yeah. 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:13.280 So basically, educational policy study looks at um the consequences of particular kinds of educational decision making. 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:16.320 So that's just kind of it in a nutshell. 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:23.840 Like if you have a particular kind of education decision that you make, so for example, to have middle schools. 00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:29.840 Chicago doesn't have middle schools, Chicago has elementary schools that go from kindergarten to eighth grade. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.519 That's a particular decision. 00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:33.920 Most places have a middle school, right? 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.360 And a middle school uh is a particular decision. 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:55.039 So education policy researchers um study all of the different kinds of consequences of different kinds of decision making, whether it's financial, like you know, who get resource allocation, how do resources get allocated across the school district? 00:46:55.199 --> 00:46:59.199 Those are people who do educational uh policy finance work. 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.599 Um there's also things related to curriculum. 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:09.440 So you might have this uh, you know, there's this debate about um, you know, uh phonics versus whole reading, right? 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:20.559 So whether you want to engage, whether a school community engages in one or the other or a combination of two, what is the consequence then on student learning and student experiences and outcomes? 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:30.719 So it's a pretty broad field that really focuses on, you know, the impacts and consequences of different kinds of educational decision making. 00:47:30.800 --> 00:48:00.960 And this could be even, you know, some people might study something like uh, you know, the kind of curriculum, whether, as you mentioned, the students who have access to a curriculum that's racially affirming, if they read uh books that have characters who look like them, who have similar experiences to them, do they have a different educational experience instead of outcomes than that same particular group of race of students who might not get access to authors, characters, even teachers who look like them. 00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:06.559 So people might study, there's a lot of research about um affinity racial matching in teachers. 00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:20.079 So we know, for example, that um if uh boys have black male teachers earlier in uh their educational experiences, they have a different set of outcomes than boys that don't. 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:26.719 So all of those kind of questions are often within the um underneath the umbrella of education policy. 00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:30.079 And the researchers use a range of different kinds of methodologies. 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:51.280 And so my research really focuses on how uh the consequences of adopting and attempting to adopt uh policies that make schools more equitable and the leadership practices that people use to do that, and then what then become the consequences for black and brown students who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of those policies? 00:48:52.079 --> 00:49:11.360 Yeah, because that makes me go like one of the things that that we talk about in our field because I teach at a uh um Hispanic serving institution that is a community college, is this whole notion of universal design learning. 00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:14.960 And this is a whole other conversation that I can have. 00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:15.760 Yeah. 00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:21.119 And people are like, yes, you need to design your classrooms this way, which I get it. 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:31.760 But at the same time, it's like, how do you bring to speed

people who don't even know how to be present as a student? 00:49:31.920 --> 00:49:37.599 So it's just like like there's just so much about UDL that I have a lot of questions about. 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:48.880 I'm like, if we meet a student, I gotta find that article, but there was an article I was reading recently that was like, stop meeting students where they are because they're not gonna grow. 00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:53.840 But at the same time, like there's it's a it's for me, it's a very complex thing. 00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:57.679 Because my thing is growing up, I did not have UDL. 00:49:57.760 --> 00:49:59.679 Like UDL was not a thing. 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:03.920 Like we literally were taught how to do certain things. 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.440 It wasn't, oh, you don't know how to do these things. 00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:09.519 So we'll never give you these tools. 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:13.679 We will only do what you do and stay in that lane. 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:19.039 That's the problem that I have with some at least interpretations of what UDL does. 00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:33.599 Now, me, how I'll do it, everybody we read the same book, but you may not be able to like, like I have some students, like when they read, they like with their eyes, they get really tired. 00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:38.159 So I make available an e-book and I make available the audiobook and all those things. 00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:47.920 But I'm like, I'm not changing the text because you don't know how to read a book, which I was told recently, they were like, you have your students reading a whole book. 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:54.639 And I'm like, but at some point, if they continue with college, they're gonna have to read a whole book. 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:56.559 Like, I just don't, yeah. 00:50:56.719 --> 00:51:00.400 I could again get on my soapbox and talk about, yeah. 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:02.960 Yeah. 00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:04.239 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:21.599 Well, I mean, I would argue, I mean, you know, universal design for learning comes out of uh scholars who work in special education field, and all the different entry points you're giving your students to access the point actually falls along the lines of what, you know, UDL would advocate for. 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:22.559 You know what I mean? 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:24.320 Um, you don't want to change the text. 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.000 The issue isn't to change the text, water it down, dumber it, dumb it down. 00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:35.519 The goal is to try to figure out the different points of entry that students uh can use to actually gain access to it. 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:44.480 So, like you mentioned, it might be um, you know, conversation, you know, conversation to get them to under to to access the text. 00:51:44.719 --> 00:52:02.960 Um, there's we could get into a whole uh debate about this, but yes, but I mean I think the point is is that um you know giving all of those different points of entry is which are w what should be happening um uh in in in education, right? 00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:09.280 So your students are lucky to uh have you if you are doing all of those things. 00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:15.679 In the past, it was just like if you don't get it, you don't get it, right? 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:25.519 Um schools were um, you know, they have this idea now um, you know, creating uh the least restrictive environment for students. 00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:28.960 And before, like when I was growing up, like everything was very restrictive. 00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:35.360 We knew which students didn't have access to the general curriculum, to the regular curriculum, to the regular learning resources. 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:50.960 Um, and so you know, there's been again uh a lot of researchers who study in that area mostly within UDL, mostly is uh within uh special education, and since it's kind of like expanded beyond just that kind of area of uh specialization. 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:54.800 Yeah, because I and and thank you for the compliment. 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:58.960 But it's like like I told my students, like they will look at a book. 00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:08.320 I wish I had one of my textbooks here that I teach, and they'll like and they'll be like, we're gonna read that full hundred-page book and the whole, yes. 00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:10.079 I had a student today. 00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:14.239 Like I teach in one class, I teach in one of my developmental English classes. 00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:16.880 I teach America Negra by um Natasha S. 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:17.360 Alford. 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:31.360 And I teach that book because a lot of my students, very similar experience, working class background, a parent who went to college, but something happened along the way that they were not able to pursue the career that they wanted. 00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:41.679 They like had their child, um Natasha, who went on to these like interesting pre-college programs and all sorts of things, but she they still were like, Oh, you want to shoot for an Ivy League? 00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.239 Well, your circumstance is this and da-da-da-da. 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:53.760 And my students, I even told them, like, when I choose text, so I'm like, Yes, I do UDL, but I do UDL differently than a lot of my other colleagues. 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:57.039 Like, my colleagues will be like, they're not reading these big text and all this stuff. 00:53:57.119 --> 00:54:00.800 I'm like, no, we will read the big text, but I will give it to them in chunks. 00:54:00.960 --> 00:54:03.280 We will do discussion-based things. 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:09.360 I will like, I will model for them how to do like a close reading and all of those things. 00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:13.280 And so that's how that's how I do UDL. 00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:21.599 I'm like, I we we're all gonna read the same text, but I will give you different ways

of under of understanding the text. 00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:22.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:39.280 No, I used to um, you know, I I have mentioned to you that I start off my first quote unquote teaching job was uh teaching GED to youth that have been uh removed from their high schools um at a life skills center. 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:44.079 And uh my favorite thing to teach with them was we we always read Animal Farm. 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.840 And I remember when I passed that book out, they was like, this book is a beast. 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:49.920 I was like, we're gonna get through it, you know what I mean? 00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:55.760 And uh it was fun because at the time, like I mentioned, I have this you know strong affinity for hip-hop. 00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:03.920 So I would um we listened to the Dead Prez song, The Animal and Man, just to kind of tee them up for like what the overarching story was. 00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:06.400 So we analyzed that hip-hop text first. 00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:15.599 So we got into that, so they started to understand the story of Animal Farm, and then we actually started reading the book and and they loved it. 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:27.920 And these are a lot of students that they're just like, yo, I read a whole book, or they would come in having been like, yo, like we're ready to talk about this next part, you know, because um, and and they were really willing to wrestle with it. 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:38.800 You know, we did some reading out loud, we did some, you know, I had this practice where I would be like, you know, what I want you all to do is to go through, find words that make you nervous, circle them, XYZ. 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.239 We would do that piece first, and then we would jump into, you know, everybody taking a turn on a paragraph. 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:47.599 But you choose the paragraph and you jump in on one where you didn't circle any words. 00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:49.599 There were scary words for you, you know what I mean? 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:55.280 Um, and then everybody take the time, and we just got into the the rhythm and the habit, you know, the habit of reading. 00:55:55.440 --> 00:56:07.039 And I feel like um, you know, the the way that we the way that we read now does not allow for us to like develop the habits that allow us to get through, you know, books, right? 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:15.440 Um, and because it's a different thing to be able to get through a book than it is to be able to get through like social media text and media text, right? 00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:17.199 It's a richer kind of media environment. 00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:25.599 And there's literacy practices there, certainly, like reading emojis and new emojis and new hieroglyphics on the computer screens, you know what I mean? 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:34.480 But, you know, to be able to read these words and make sense of these words requires a different kind of um discipline, concentration, and attention. 00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:35.920 And it's a muscle. 00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:45.840 You know, it's you know, one of the things that uh whether it's writing or whether it's reading, I always think of it as like um, it just takes practice. 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:49.199 You know, I tell I have an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old, I'm like, y'all gotta read. 00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:51.760 It just takes, it just takes practice, you just gotta read. 00:56:51.920 --> 00:57:03.119 You know, um, both of my young, both of my children right now are interested in learning how to speed read because they've started to um understand that a lot of their peers read faster than they do. 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:04.000 And they probably do. 00:57:04.159 --> 00:57:11.440 We still have that, you know, that sub-vocalization thing that, you know, because we read out loud, we start off reading out loud to them. 00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:12.480 They read out loud. 00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.760 I say, Y'all, I never learned how to get rid of the sub-vocalization. 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:16.960 So I'm a slow reader. 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:18.159 Like it takes me a long time. 00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.679 Like I read with a similar cadence to how I talk. 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:28.480 Um, whoever it is, I actually take on their voice and I'm kind of just like reading with my own kind of like cadence and rhythm. 00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:35.840 And um, you know, I told my children, I said, that's because, you know, that's how you learn how to read, but that's not where you have to stay. 00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:48.320 The issue is that by the time kids get to, you know, middle school, if they have the sub-vocalization, the voice in their head when they're reading, the next skill is to learn how to read by just looking at the words. 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:50.480 Schools don't teach that. 00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:53.599 If they taught that, everybody be getting through books fast, you know what I mean? 00:57:53.760 --> 00:58:03.920 So, my experience is that some of the frustration and challenge, especially for um people who aren't um time-rich, they ain't got all the time in the world. 00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:05.920 It takes a long time to learn how to read. 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:08.880 It takes a long time to get through that 400-page book. 00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:20.559 Um, if you haven't learned how to um minimize the sub-vocalizations and how to actually read the words as opposed to having to read, hear, and then interpret. 00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:21.119 That's me. 00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:25.920 That's what I still have to do at, you know, in my late 40s because I never learned the other approach. 00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:32.159 And so I've been talking to my um my children about, yeah, it's a skill that you can develop, you know what I'm saying? 00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:36.880 But it's gonna take time and practice if you want to get rid of that vocalization as you're

reading. 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:45.039 So all of this stuff around reading, around writing, it requires discipline, it requires the taking of time, but it's for muscles. 00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:49.119 So even if you can read for 10 or 15 minutes a day, that builds. 00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:51.119 And then you start to, you know, build it up. 00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:53.199 And I even have to do this for my own too. 00:58:53.280 --> 00:59:05.360 Like there's these time periods where I'm not reading a lot, or if I'm reading, I'm reading uh, I would say writing that isn't refined and polished yet, because as a professor, we read a lot of bad writing. 00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:06.000 You know what I mean? 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:06.719 That's our job. 00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:07.280 You know what I mean? 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:08.880 It's just like, oh my gosh. 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:19.920 So I would say, like, you know, 80% of what I read is, you know, doing reviews for academic journals, reading a book to see whether it should get published, uh, reading student papers. 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:27.679 So I'm reading all of this unrefined, unpolished, first draft, second draft type work. 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:37.840 Um, as opposed, and so sometimes I have to shift my mind to read something without reading it for correction, right? 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:39.679 And so that's a discipline of itself. 00:59:39.840 --> 00:59:43.119 And I love it when I have the chance to actually sit down and read. 00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:48.880 Like when I read uh Heaven and Earth Grocery Store, that was uh, I loved reading it, you know what I mean? 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:59.039 And I'm just jumping into just reading, reading, reading, and uh, and I'm doing it for pleasure and I'm doing it to learn as opposed to, you know, um, you know, reading for correction. 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:07.760 So there's all these different reasons why people read, and there's these different approaches that people use, and all of them require discipline. 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:18.639 It's hard for me to shift from reading turn papers and drafts of journal articles to then reading a masterful, masterfully written novel. 01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.280 So it takes a while to switch. 01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:31.280 So, Dakota, I have another aside question for you, and it's I want to jump into this one question that kind of leans into um some writing that you've done that's not academic. 01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:37.280 So is there I'm trying to think of how to phrase this because I can go one of two ways. 01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:49.760 Is there a book from your time as a student that students do not read now, that you would love for them to read and why? 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:52.320 Like one of the ones you brought up was Animal Farm. 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.679 And a lot of students already, and I will never forget, I read that book in what 10th grade? 01:00:57.840 --> 01:01:00.320 And I was like, oh my God.

01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:02.880 And now it's a banned book. 01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:05.920 So a lot of students do not have access. 01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:12.000 That that the book, oh my God, like and I and I and I know I don't, oh, I'm trying to get on the soulbox. 01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:15.440 Like, I know why the book is now banned. 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.960 Um, but it's it's such a book that's so important. 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:25.280 So I would love to know, and it may take you a little bit to think of a book from your past. 01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:30.400 And I'm assuming that um that we're around the same age. 01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:32.159 Education back then was a lot different. 01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:34.639 No child left behind doesn't didn't exist. 01:01:35.119 --> 01:01:39.760 Um we didn't have to wear seatbelts until like we were much older. 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:43.360 They did, you know, so childhood was a little bit more freer and all these other things. 01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:46.320 So we had access to a lot more things. 01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:58.480 So I would love to know something from when you were a student that students don't read now that you would recommend for students to read the for for and for educators to teach now and why. 01:01:59.199 --> 01:02:13.039 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think Animal Farm is one of them, you know, along with the essay to kill an elephant, um, which is so I think those kinds of uh pieces. 01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:16.960 I feel like um you mentioned the movie Malcolm X. 01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:20.559 I read the book Malcolm X um in high school. 01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:27.280 It was not a find, by the way, but you know, it was all of the Malcolm X fever that we had with the little medallions and the hats. 01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:31.840 So I had to, you know, you had to have you had to jump into this book. 01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:39.679 And the book was uh different than the movie, especially like uh, you know, some of the characters was like more well-developed and that sort of thing. 01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:57.920 So I think Animal Farm, Malcolm X, uh, Miss Education of the Negro, which I don't think was assigned, I didn't read that until I believe I I I believe that was probably college by the time I got access to that book. 01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:03.840 Um I think those were probably I think those are kind of my top three. 01:03:04.079 --> 01:03:08.719 If I'm thinking high school and like, you know, the earlier years. 01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:14.719 Um yeah, I mean, I think Animal Farm is so brilliant. 01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:20.639 I um, you know, we read like 1984, all of those different kinds of books. 01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:30.880 Um, you know, and the ideas like the thought police and all of those things continue to influence, they continue to influence me through college and even influence me to this day. 01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:39.280 I be telling my kids, like, y'all need to read 1984, you know, if y'all want to understand the the all the surveillance, you know, I'm saying in the all of the control. 01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:44.400 Like, you know, um, me and my kids are always projecting into what the future is gonna be. 01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:47.760 And I'm like, you know, they got the you got the Apple Watch on your wrist. 01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:48.800 That's just a test. 01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:54.079 And now they're starting to put it on your eyes with the with, so I'm just like, they're gonna, they're gonna embed it. 01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:59.199 It's gonna be embedded, and they're gonna be able to, you know, you're gonna be able to, you're not gonna have to be able to ask Siri to do something. 01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.159 You're gonna think something, and Siri's gonna be able to produce it. 01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:05.199 So I'm just like, you know, I feel like that's where we're headed. 01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:08.800 And it seems like something out of um science fiction. 01:04:09.519 --> 01:04:20.000 Um, but you know, people wrote about these kind of things, like the idea of a thought police, and that's exactly what we're seeing literally from this presidency right now. 01:04:20.239 --> 01:04:30.880 Um is uh the the the kind of policing of thoughts and speech is um yeah, it's like what people is writing about, you know. 01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:51.920 Um so I feel like those three those sorts of books, Animal Farm, Malcolm X, and um Miss Education and Negro are three books that I think um you know every black child should should have access to and should read. 01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:55.760 Um of course Beloved, Beloved was incredible. 01:04:56.000 --> 01:05:02.719 Um, you know, I I'm trying to figure out, but you know, the challenge I'm having to ask you a question, I'm trying to think of when I actually read these books. 01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:07.679 But I remember, you know, watching the movie Beloved versus reading the book. 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:11.360 When you read the book, like I didn't understand the water breaking in the movie. 01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:13.199 You can't understand what's going on. 01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:13.679 Like, what? 01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:15.280 She just what's happening? 01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:16.400 But you know what I mean? 01:05:16.639 --> 01:05:29.280 Like, you know, but then when you read the book, like everything is explained and you understand, like, this is what's going on, this is why it's red when they come into the house, and you just understand stuff that is just not explained in the movie. 01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:43.760 And so there's this a tremendous benefit to reading because it allows you to, it allows the writers to elaborate and to go into depth that you know filmmakers um you know don't necessarily have time to do. 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:58.559 And the important thing is that while these films paint a you know, a great picture, like there's no picture that is more vivid than the

imagination because you get to decide what the characters look like. 01:05:59.199 --> 01:05:59.840 You know what I mean? 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:06.639 Like you, they give you got some descriptions, but you get to describe, you get to have a sense of like what the house looked like, what the land looked like. 01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:08.719 You know, you get to have that in your head. 01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:16.239 And as you mentioned earlier in our conversation, a lot of times that's gonna come from your own points of reference. 01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:23.679 And that's important because it makes the story more relatable as opposed to when you see the movies, it's not what you imagine. 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:27.840 And I've I I've heard that uh I have not read this book, but my wife talks about it. 01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:30.000 I think it's like children of blood and bones. 01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:30.639 Yup. 01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:35.199 Oh the movie's coming up. 01:06:35.440 --> 01:06:37.039 Yeah, I think it's coming out soon. 01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:44.960 And I know there's a lot of controversy around which, of course, the author, my apologies, I can't pronounce um her name. 01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:54.880 But and I hope eventually something comes out in terms of the why she's like, yeah, I want people to see it this film is important, but I no longer want to be involved with it. 01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:56.480 Right, right, right, right, right. 01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:56.800 Yeah. 01:06:56.960 --> 01:07:03.840 So I mean, but just even to think about like, you know, the imagination, you know what I'm saying? 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:13.199 And people have an imagination and being able to think about like what something looks like on their own without having to have one person's interpretation of what that is, I think is incredibly powerful. 01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:23.280 And it's a um it's the gift that you get when, you know, you you know, you read as opposed to just watch movies and films. 01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:37.440 When you read, you get, you know, um, you know, your imagination gets to go wild and you play a role in making sense and having a vision for what the the author you know wants you to kind of understand. 01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:41.840 You you have more stake and role in the process when you're reading, I think. 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:43.760 Exactly. 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:54.880 And I think this takes us to because this question, um I'm trying to think of how, yes, so I'll reword this question. 01:07:55.119 --> 01:08:05.360 So when I was doing research on you, I saw that you wrote, and I hope I'm doing this correctly, a children's book called Magical Black Tears, a protest story. 01:08:05.599 --> 01:08:06.079 That's right. 01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:21.439 Um, can you talk about that book, why you chose to self-publish it, and kind of what is the life that it's taken on since it's been published? 01:08:21.840 --> 01:08:23.680 Yeah, thank you for this question. 01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:25.279 Um, I don't have a copy. 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:26.880 I wish I had a copy of it somewhere. 01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:30.319 Um so Magical Black Tears is a book. 01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:31.920 So we're talking about imagination. 01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:34.560 That book literally came to me in a dream. 01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:53.760 Um so it's a picture book, and the reason that it was a picture book, I did it as a picture book is because the dream that I had was very vivid and in color, colorful, um, very little dialogue, but lots of sound in the dream. 01:08:54.000 --> 01:09:08.239 Um, and so the night that I had the dream, I woke up and I literally grabbed some white pieces of paper out of our printer and I sketched out what I had just saw in my dream, and I went back to bed. 01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:12.800 This was maybe 2014. 01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:15.680 This was maybe 20, I can't remember that year. 01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:24.159 I would have to look and see because this was right around the time when their Sherman Park um uprisings happened in Milwaukee. 01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:28.399 So it was what happened with my dream is I was watching the news. 01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:37.279 I was a new father at the time, and I had this incredible sense of uh like this heightened sensitivity to violence at this particular time. 01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:39.119 Fruitville Station had came out. 01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:46.479 When Fruitville Station came out, I sat in the theater, they turned the lights on, and I was in the seed theater, still sitting in there crying, right? 01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:48.720 Because I was just so devastated. 01:09:48.800 --> 01:09:59.680 It was just like becoming a father, like just heightened my sensitivity to like violence in a way that, you know, I just would never have imagined until I became a father. 01:10:00.000 --> 01:10:03.039 Um I sold Fruitville Station. 01:10:03.359 --> 01:10:12.079 I think this was around the time of like uh Ferguson, Mike Brown, uprisings and uh, you know, Milwaukee. 01:10:12.560 --> 01:10:20.000 Um his name was uh yeah, so anyway, I could just go into a long list of me naming all of what was happening at the time. 01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:22.960 So I had a, I was, this was what I was consuming. 01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:24.319 So this was in my consciousness. 01:10:24.399 --> 01:10:33.840 So I had a dream, and the dream was these two little, you know, these uh these little people um that saved the day. 01:10:33.920 --> 01:10:46.319 It was like they were walking through the chaos, you know, cars on fire, fire, everything going, and they just little and innocent and uh saved the day and you know did it with these tears that they call magical black tears. 01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:47.920 So I had this very vivid dream. 01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:54.479 I woke up, I sketched it out, um, I put it down, but I didn't pick it back up until um 2020. 01:10:54.800 --> 01:11:07.760

And at the time, there was uh George Floyd was murdered, and my my children were asking me questions like, you know, why did they kill George Floyd? 01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:26.720 But now at the same time, I can explain that to them, but they were just like, you know, we start off with the protest, but then pretty quickly, I live in Chicago, and we have a corridor on 47th Street, and um, people were tearing up 47th Street, you know, I mean, tearing up, and I mean we had smoke coming in our house. 01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:31.600 And so while as parents, our initial inclination was to try to be protective of our children. 01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:35.119 Um, but then it got to a point it was like, it's smoke in the house. 01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:36.960 Like, we got to tell them what's going on. 01:11:37.199 --> 01:11:40.319 And so we told them, but we started to read, thinking of reading. 01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:42.319 We didn't watch TV with them. 01:11:42.560 --> 01:11:43.840 We didn't want it to be scary. 01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:55.199 So we would get the Chicago Tribune, the hard copy, and we would sit down and would read the paper and then explain to them through the images, the still images in the words, what was happening. 01:11:55.279 --> 01:11:56.560 And just kind of like talk to them. 01:11:56.640 --> 01:12:03.600 And they would just be asking very, you know, um, you know, they was just being curious as kids, like, well, you know, why would they kill him? 01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:08.560 And then they was asking, like, well, why people tear up their own neighborhood, you know, all these questions. 01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:21.199 Um, and so right around that time is when I realized that the book would be beneficial to parents and educators to have these kind of conversations with children. 01:12:21.439 --> 01:12:39.039 The book doesn't try to answer the question about why, it just sheds a light on like what's actually happening, but it strikes a positive, it strikes a hopeful chord because the theme of the book is that um you can you can make change, you can create the world that you want to create. 01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:45.840 And it's a story of uh these children who you know see people crying, right? 01:12:46.079 --> 01:12:49.600 Protesters crying, and they catch the protesters' tears. 01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:55.279 And those protesters' tears are what they then use to save their neighborhood by putting out all of these fires with tears. 01:12:55.359 --> 01:12:57.520 So that's why it's called magical black tears. 01:12:57.760 --> 01:13:06.319 Um, so all of the strength, all of the struggle and the pain and the hardship and the tears, um, there's power in those tears. 01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:21.279 And what I wanted my children to understand is though, although people are experiencing a lot of pain right now, you know, we're gonna take what comes from this pain, in this case, the tears, and we're gonna use that to make the world a place that we want it

to be. 01:13:21.359 --> 01:13:23.199 And so that's what the story is about. 01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:28.399 Yeah, and thank you for mentioning that, which by the way, it makes me sad. 01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:36.479 And again, I I eventually want to do a podcast where it's like authors talking on the world because our work reflects the world. 01:13:36.640 --> 01:14:04.640 And like, and I'm trying, I'm gonna try really hard not to take us on this other path for too much because I have a couple more questions for you, but we've lost the sense of empathy, like this whole, like the one thing, oh, the conversation that makes me so angry is I can't remember what I because I go down this rabbit hole on YouTube videos of like um different commentary and things like that, people talking about like like relevant things in society. 01:14:04.720 --> 01:14:14.239 And so one of these rabbit holes I went down, I can't remember who it was, but it was someone, an independent journalist, was interviewing folks who voted for Trump the past couple of elections. 01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:19.600 And they wanted to know now that gas prices are high, eggs are still expensive, all sorts of stuff. 01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:24.560 Like, what do they think of his presidency now and would they vote for him again or not? 01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:25.119 Right. 01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:37.199 And one person was like, Yeah, my gas is really expensive, and I'm maxing out credit cards to like be able to live and blah, blah, blah, but I'm still gonna stay loyal to Trump. 01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:37.760 Okay. 01:14:38.079 --> 01:14:45.439 And then there was one person who said that um they, what was it? 01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:58.159 I think like a family member or something like that was recently deported, and they were like, we don't understand why, we're not any of the bad people, we didn't think it would happen to us. 01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:01.279 And I was just like, okay, this is the whole empathy thing. 01:15:01.359 --> 01:15:07.600 Because I'm like, for me, when I vote, I don't, and I'm more of a socialist than anything. 01:15:07.680 --> 01:15:15.840 I'm like, when I vote, I don't vote with just my interests and mine, I vote with everyone who lives around me because my thing is what impacts you will impact me. 01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:16.640 Absolutely. 01:15:17.039 --> 01:15:17.279 Right. 01:15:17.359 --> 01:15:26.159 And so I just don't understand when did we as a society get to this place of we don't care, we only care about our own interest. 01:15:26.720 --> 01:15:38.880 And then when we end up being the person who is persecuted by the right, then all of a sudden they're like, Oh, I didn't realize this was gonna happen to me. 01:15:38.960 --> 01:15:40.159 And I'm like, what makes you special? 01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:46.720 Like, what makes you special that you were never going to, you're you were never gonna be a target, even though you've always had the target on your back. 01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:47.760 Right, right, right. 01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:48.560 Yeah. 01:15:48.880 --> 01:15:53.920 Nah, I mean, it's that's uh uh just an agreement or a question, like we don't say. 01:15:54.720 --> 01:16:04.640 Yeah, again, I'm like, I'm rambling, but I just have to put that out there because it's like I just and I love that like your book, it seems like it's teaching the importance of empathy. 01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:05.279 Yeah. 01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:20.560 Well, I mean, I I feel like um it is, and it's it's it's to me, I think teaching more that struggle is necessary, right? 01:16:20.960 --> 01:16:28.800 Um, and uh that our fight, even if it feels like you're losing, is not in vain. 01:16:29.199 --> 01:16:38.319 I think those are those are the things that are important that I hope to kind of get across because we know, I mean, this gets to this gets back to the book stuck improving. 01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:40.079 It's a very similar thing. 01:16:40.319 --> 01:16:46.159 Um, you know, things might be going one way, and you know, you take three steps forward, two steps backward, right? 01:16:46.239 --> 01:16:47.520 You hit walls. 01:16:47.760 --> 01:16:52.319 Like progress um isn't linear. 01:16:52.479 --> 01:16:57.119 Uh, I feel like right now we're in a period of retrenchment. 01:16:57.199 --> 01:16:57.840 You know what I mean? 01:16:58.000 --> 01:17:03.840 Like we, I don't know how long we're gonna live in it, but we're living in the racial backlash of Obama being elected right now. 01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:04.880 That's what we're doing. 01:17:04.960 --> 01:17:13.760 That's just like in rec during reconstruction post-Reconstruction, we lived against the racial backlash of uh the Civil War. 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:34.960 Um, and my thing is that like, well, anyway, we're gonna go to the big tangent, but my thing is that we have these periods where you know people are willing to um, you know, suffer as a result of like, you know, feeling some sense of kind of superiority. 01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:36.880 Um, and that's what we're seeing. 01:17:37.119 --> 01:17:43.119 And I don't know how uh to change that. 01:17:43.520 --> 01:17:46.079 I'm interested and curious about it. 01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:56.640 Um and I grew up in South Carolina, um, and so my Facebook feed is is is is lit up with you know multiple different perspectives. 01:17:56.720 --> 01:18:02.079 And sometimes I'll be reading stuff and I'll be like, wow, like how did y'all how did you get here? 01:18:02.479 --> 01:18:03.680 How did you get here? 01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:09.119 Um we must have a similar algorithm because I've been getting some of those interview videos too. 01:18:09.439 --> 01:18:22.319 Um but yeah, you know, I feel like uh very similar to you that we need to understand that um we are interconnected. 01:18:22.560 --> 01:18:36.960 We are interconnected, and when everybody can see, you know, I always tell people, you know, during Reconstruction, it was such a which

another great book that everybody should read is you know, uh Black Reconstruction by Du Bois. 01:18:37.119 --> 01:18:38.720 But that's that's a really long one. 01:18:38.880 --> 01:18:41.920 But anyway, uh that wasn't until like graduate school. 01:18:42.159 --> 01:18:49.680 But you know, Reconstruction it would have benefited everybody if we would have been able to keep it going. 01:18:50.159 --> 01:18:51.279 You know what I mean? 01:18:51.520 --> 01:19:12.479 Um and you know, one of the things that always point to is that you know, the people who were formerly uh, you know, overseers, the poor white folks in the South who had the the jobs of who became the Klan's people, but who previously that had the jobs of overseeing, they wanted to learn how to read too. 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:14.640 They was illiterate too. 01:19:15.279 --> 01:19:15.760 Right? 01:19:16.079 --> 01:19:22.159 So um all of the uh, you know, the normal schools, right? 01:19:22.319 --> 01:19:32.239 The creation of normal schools that were intended to, you know, help people become teachers and stuff like white women benefited from that too. 01:19:33.199 --> 01:19:41.199 Like there are these different configurations where e everybody can get something, right? 01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:44.239 And I don't believe that everybody needs to get the same. 01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:51.439 I do believe that people who have historically been oppressed need more, right? 01:19:51.920 --> 01:19:57.119 Uh, but that doesn't, it's not a total zero sum game in in every situation. 01:19:57.279 --> 01:20:05.680 I mean, some of this gets down to whether we're thinking or thinking about um, you know, operating through a spirit of abundance or scarcity. 01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:15.279 And um you have a lot of people who just feel like if somebody else is doing well, they by default are going to be doing bad. 01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:20.079 And that doesn't, that doesn't bear out um empirically. 01:20:20.239 --> 01:20:22.239 If we're gonna get back to the research, right? 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:26.880 That doesn't necessarily always impair, that doesn't always uh play out in that kind of way. 01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:30.319 Like people are um benefit in a number of different ways. 01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:41.760 It might not necessarily be, and so one of the things we even know is a society gets more economically stratified, um, that economic stratification comes with a host of different kinds of problems. 01:20:41.840 --> 01:20:44.800 Like a more equal society is a healthier society. 01:20:45.279 --> 01:20:58.079 Um but you know, I just feel like the American dream is so strong for some people um that you know they feel like they're gonna be billionaires. 01:20:58.560 --> 01:21:22.319 So we can't so it makes no sense to tax, you know, uh it makes no sense to tax billionaires and millionaires because the dream is that for a lot of people, one day um I'm gonna be rich too, which is a very different dream than you know, the dream that, you know, our our our beloved Martin Luther King put out. 01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:28.880 He put out something that was different, a different alternative to the capitalist American dream that so many people have bought into. 01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:33.119 He put something out that was different, and that's why it was so dangerous. 01:21:34.560 --> 01:21:36.720 Because it was more equal, right? 01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:38.399 That's what made it dangerous. 01:21:38.479 --> 01:21:46.159 You know, when he started critiquing capitalism, and you know, everybody started calling him a communist and everything, he was putting forth a vision of something that was much more equal. 01:21:46.399 --> 01:21:48.880 And, you know, bless his soul. 01:21:48.960 --> 01:21:59.039 Like, you know, his book, Strength of Love, is like, you know, I think about, you know, Martin Luther King, another book that I think is brilliant is uh Jesus and the Disenherited by Howard Thurman. 01:21:59.119 --> 01:22:00.159 I love that book. 01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:07.520 I mean, these are people who were laying out a radically different dream for what a society could be. 01:22:07.680 --> 01:22:20.000 Uh, but the dream that we most people race towards is a dream where you have more uh material accumulation uh and wealth accumulation than you can ever do anything. 01:22:20.159 --> 01:22:22.880 One one family or person could ever do anything with. 01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:34.319 And I don't know how um I don't know how I don't know how to necessarily disrupt that because it's so strong and so powerful for people. 01:22:34.720 --> 01:22:42.960 Even, even uh, you know, that's why people want to, even immigrants, that's why they a lot of immigrants want to come here is for that dream. 01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:45.199 You know? 01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:46.479 Yeah. 01:22:46.880 --> 01:22:54.560 So this segues so nicely into this section, and then folks that are joining us, um we're almost done. 01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:58.079 I'm gonna still again try to get us out. 01:22:58.239 --> 01:23:04.000 I mean, it's 8:30 now, but try to wrap up in an hour and 30 minutes. 01:23:04.399 --> 01:23:19.359 So one of the things that I'm doing new this season is I am reaching out to folks whose work aligns with that of our guests and having them pose questions to our guests that's relevant. 01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:25.439 They will not be coming on air, but they've submitted the questions to me ahead of time, and I'll be reading them on their behalf. 01:23:25.680 --> 01:23:34.800 And I am very, very blessed to have two colleagues that I stand in solidarity with at Jolio Community College who submitted questions. 01:23:34.960 --> 01:23:39.680 One of them is an alum of University of Illinois at Chicago. 01:23:39.840 --> 01:23:43.520 I purposefully, I was like, Ro, you need to submit a question. 01:23:43.680 --> 01:23:45.359 And he's right down the hall for me. 01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:51.520 So the first

set of questions that I have, so for folks, Jolio Community College is a Hispanic serving institution. 01:23:51.840 --> 01:24:00.880 And this particular um colleague of mine, I approached him because he does a lot of um Raul Gutierrez. 01:24:01.039 --> 01:24:08.960 He is the professor of Latinx Studies and Spanish, the chair of language and Latinx Studies Department, and he is the learning communities coordinator. 01:24:09.119 --> 01:24:11.039 What learning communities are on our campus? 01:24:11.199 --> 01:24:13.680 There's two faculty of different disciplines. 01:24:13.760 --> 01:24:21.439 They come together on a like-minded topic, and then they teach that that topic based on the two different disciplines. 01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:30.800 So he he does a lot of stuff around like community building and like like conversations across disciplines and things like that. 01:24:30.960 --> 01:24:40.159 And again, he is an alum of the University of Chicago, Illinois, and he's originally from Chicago, so it means a lot for me to be able to pose this question on his behalf. 01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:51.680 So the questions that I have from Professor Cateris are what role does solidarity among BIPOC communities play in advancing racial equity within educational environments? 01:24:51.840 --> 01:25:01.039 And how can we strengthen collaboration, solidarity, and mutual support between black and brown communities to promote greater equity and inclusion in education? 01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:08.880 Yeah, this is a um, I mean, solidarity clearly is important. 01:25:08.960 --> 01:25:33.920 And I mean, I think, you know, going back to a critique of you know, capitalism and late capitalism, the accumulation of wealth, I think being able to pick up kind of uh analysis of kind of like how our shared interests, how how we have shared interests um economically. 01:25:34.159 --> 01:25:42.159 Um, I think that most people want I would like to think that most people want something similar for their children. 01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:52.319 Um, I would like to think that uh, you know, we want kind of similar similar things. 01:25:52.800 --> 01:26:02.960 I think one of the challenges with um so solidarity is really important to um advancing equity, advancing justice. 01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:11.359 I find that the challenge within the challenge with solidarity is in large part, I think anti-blackness, well, two things. 01:26:11.600 --> 01:26:18.239 Anti-blackness and um again, the the the capitalist rat race. 01:26:18.399 --> 01:26:20.239 I think those are the two things, right? 01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:35.119 And they're those two things are interconnected because in large part in the United States, in many ways, the um the rat race is gonna be at the expense, it's gonna exploit somebody, right? 01:26:35.600 --> 01:26:40.159 Um, and so when I think about the anti-blackness, it's on multiple different levels. 01:26:40.239 --> 01:26:49.119 I mean, so you know, I know I keep going back to

these pop cultural things that are happening right now, but you know, like fat Joe should just stop saying the N-word, you know what I mean? 01:26:49.520 --> 01:26:53.199 It's just like yeah, it's cool with your homies. 01:26:53.600 --> 01:26:54.720 I understand that. 01:26:55.039 --> 01:27:05.199 But like, you know, and I know this is a debate within uh, you know, the Latino community as well. 01:27:06.399 --> 01:27:13.039 But it's just like, you know, Fat Joe could make a huge fat joke could play a huge role in just saying, you know what? 01:27:14.960 --> 01:27:16.640 I ain't gonna say this no more. 01:27:17.199 --> 01:27:18.560 It's just that simple. 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:25.279 Now, if he chose to do that, solidarity would be easier, perhaps. 01:27:25.359 --> 01:27:28.720 I mean, you know, the younger kids don't know who Fat Joe is. 01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:41.439 But uh my children play baseball and softball, and they went to this uh, I'm not gonna mention the name of it, but there's this uh baseball program here in Chicago, and they went to this baseball program, it's mostly Latino folks. 01:27:41.520 --> 01:27:46.319 And if any people know, the south side of Chicago is black and Latino, right? 01:27:46.479 --> 01:27:54.479 Um, the freeway kind of divides the black section and the black, and but we we we pretty connected in, right? 01:27:55.039 --> 01:28:02.000 So they go to this uh you know baseball program and my My kids had a great time. 01:28:02.079 --> 01:28:05.920 They said, you know, we got our workout in, you know, the bat and practice was good, XYZ. 01:28:06.079 --> 01:28:14.960 And they said, but daddy, we can't go back there because they were like, I heard the N word N-word more times in three days at that camp than I've heard in my life. 01:28:15.199 --> 01:28:16.640 And I was just like, really? 01:28:17.119 --> 01:28:17.680 Wow. 01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:20.159 And so I started talking to people about it. 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:30.079 And my thing is that, like, there's a bunch of arguments and debates about young people just use this language and XYZ. 01:28:30.159 --> 01:28:31.520 And I was like, but not really though. 01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:33.760 Because we don't call Jewish people anything. 01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:35.760 We don't call Asian people anything. 01:28:36.000 --> 01:28:38.159 We don't call Latino people anything. 01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:43.680 Everybody is happy and okay with calling us whatever they want. 01:28:43.920 --> 01:28:49.680 Now, I started off by talking about how people, how words matter. 01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:55.359 The words aren't just words, they're also actions because it's easy to kill an in. 01:28:57.199 --> 01:29:00.000 It's difficult to forgive somebody who's an in. 01:29:01.039 --> 01:29:03.039 An end deserved to get shot. 01:29:03.279 --> 01:29:05.279 An end deserved to be locked up. 01:29:06.319 --> 01:29:07.199 Brothers don't. 01:29:08.079 --> 01:29:23.199 So even if you change that language,

then we can start to get towards something that even feels more um culturally, psychologically safe and warm if people thought of us as brothers. 01:29:23.439 --> 01:29:25.359 But we can't get fat Joe. 01:29:26.880 --> 01:29:35.279 Not only can we not get Fat Joe to not say the word, we got Fat Joe saying, I'm the realest in you ever gonna meet. 01:29:36.479 --> 01:29:37.840 So you know what I mean? 01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:46.640 So for me, it's just like I feel like a lot of a lot of um that kind of stuff is in the way. 01:29:47.039 --> 01:29:47.359 Right? 01:29:47.520 --> 01:30:00.800 Because even when we talk about economic solidarities, it's hard to be solid with somebody who you in the kitchen with working that's using the N-word every other word when you're there. 01:30:02.000 --> 01:30:03.039 You know what I mean? 01:30:03.279 --> 01:30:07.600 So I just feel like there's these deeper conversations that we need to have. 01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:11.119 And I don't even know if they're conversations that we as black people need to have. 01:30:11.359 --> 01:30:18.560 I feel like many communities need to do a lot of work to figure out what they want their relationship to be with us. 01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:30.239 And also in understanding what they want their relationship to be with us, if they understood the contributions that we have made and that so lovingly continue to make. 01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:33.359 This is who I always remind people of. 01:30:34.079 --> 01:30:40.159 Systematically, like if you think about we ain't done nothing to nobody. 01:30:41.279 --> 01:30:43.039 We ain't done nothing to nobody. 01:30:44.319 --> 01:30:45.680 Yet we hate it. 01:30:46.640 --> 01:30:50.000 We disrespect it, we disregard it, right? 01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:54.000 So for me, I I I understand the importance of solidarity. 01:30:54.239 --> 01:31:10.479 The challenge is there's so many things in the way of creating the kind of solidarity that can actually like move us to a more beloved space that um that while is uh that's not necessarily our work. 01:31:10.960 --> 01:31:16.399 Um and and again, I wish people would understand all you know communities of color. 01:31:16.479 --> 01:31:21.760 I wish people would understand how simple some of this stuff is, right? 01:31:22.000 --> 01:31:28.159 Because the communities that I grew up in, you know, you go to, you know that movie. 01:31:28.319 --> 01:31:32.239 Um, you remember the movie with uh Steve Martin in it called a jerk? 01:31:32.479 --> 01:31:35.039 Yes, oh my god, yes, I remember that movie as a kid. 01:31:35.279 --> 01:31:36.880 We love everybody. 01:31:37.279 --> 01:31:38.239 You know what I'm saying? 01:31:38.800 --> 01:31:44.560 Like sometimes I say this, and I got a homeboy who argues with me about this because I tend to be the person who wants to have solidarity. 01:31:44.640 --> 01:31:46.880 I got homeboys that just like, nah, you know what I mean? 01:31:47.279 --> 01:31:51.439 We do our own thing, own

communities XYZ, and I'm just like, yeah, you know. 01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:56.560 Um, but then I'll always say, but that's not the spirit that we move in. 01:31:56.720 --> 01:32:06.159 We haven't ever moved in that spirit because we've always been nurturers and caretakers for our own people and everybody else when they in need. 01:32:06.640 --> 01:32:19.199 Um, whether that's, you know, even here in Chicago, when uh the folks in Texas, the governor of Texas was busting Venezuelan uh, you know, migrants to Chicago. 01:32:19.920 --> 01:32:34.399 And um the vitriol that came from the Latino neighborhoods and communities was very different than, but now we was on the news, but we was principal, like, you know, here's the concerns we have, XYZ. 01:32:34.479 --> 01:32:46.319 And there was an older woman, um, Jeanette Taylor, and she said that like it hurts, it might hurt for us to welcome folks into our community because we haven't been given the resources. 01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:55.119 The hurt is really because we've been neglected, and the people who are just now here are getting a wealth of resources. 01:32:55.279 --> 01:33:02.399 And she was like, So I'm gonna vote to pass this budget to support these people as much as it hurts because she was like, that's what we do. 01:33:02.880 --> 01:33:06.479 And that's what I told my homeboy is like, that's what we do. 01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:16.800 But as soon as folks get here and start to acculturate into what uh their relationship can be with black people, they're gonna be fat Joe. 01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:37.840 So the question for me becomes like, what do how you I it's hard for me to be in solidarity with folks when you know their children, their grandparents, their people are they look down on us. 01:33:38.000 --> 01:33:38.640 You know what I mean? 01:33:38.800 --> 01:33:47.279 So I think the anti-blackness gets in the way of all kinds of other solidarities, political solidarity, economic solidarity. 01:33:47.520 --> 01:33:48.640 It really gets in the way. 01:33:48.720 --> 01:33:51.840 And it's I say it's simple because it seems simple to me. 01:33:51.920 --> 01:34:01.119 And the reason it seems simple to me is that there's certain things I'm not gonna say about, it's certain things I'm not gonna call or say about other racialized groups. 01:34:02.640 --> 01:34:05.119 Certain things I'm not gonna say about our people either. 01:34:05.359 --> 01:34:11.840 Um, I don't know why, and I'm always curious about why we can't get that same affordance. 01:34:12.720 --> 01:34:18.880 That to me is in the way of solidarities, and I think that they're incredibly important, but it can't just be around like particular issues. 01:34:19.039 --> 01:34:21.439 I think we want something genuine, right? 01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:37.119 Um we want to feel regarded and respected, you know, for um the contributions we've made in the past and the contributions we can make right now, and a lot of other folks just for whatever reasons

aren't willing to do that on to do that for us. 01:34:37.520 --> 01:34:46.239 And that brings up, and before I um do the second to last question, and I think this is a great way to like wrap us up. 01:34:46.479 --> 01:35:02.800 So speaking of like the whole, you know, what we need in terms of the to to do the solidarity is the anti-blackness, I'm going here, that conference ad and the fact that so many people, even black people, when I was reading the comments, they did not see what I saw. 01:35:02.960 --> 01:35:04.479 They did not see what other people see. 01:35:04.640 --> 01:35:14.960 And and this is why I'm like, why critical thinking is important, why like why certain things in education are being taken away from us is so important. 01:35:15.279 --> 01:35:24.319 Because it is literally teaching us to really look at these things and decipher for ourselves and allow us to choose where we want to spend our money. 01:35:24.560 --> 01:35:36.159 And I like, I will never forget, I can't remember what it is, and I think you and I are getting the same algorithms, but there was this one gentleman who literally broke down why this ad was so problematic. 01:35:36.319 --> 01:35:41.439 He was like, when you look at the original and you do this, this is purposefully targeted. 01:35:41.520 --> 01:35:43.680 He was like, There, he's like, I'm a photographer. 01:35:43.840 --> 01:35:53.359 There is no way that you would get that shape on that woman's skirt unless you positioned lighting in a particular way. 01:35:53.520 --> 01:36:01.680 You have the star, you have the shoes, you have like everyone, and I hate this whole this whole term of woke. 01:36:01.840 --> 01:36:10.560 I'm like, but everyone who is aware and educated, everyone, even my my white colleagues, I which I showed them that image, I didn't say a word. 01:36:10.640 --> 01:36:12.800 They were like, oh my god. 01:36:13.680 --> 01:36:26.079 And what was so interesting in the social media threads, even seeing black people comment saying, I need y'all to stop making stuff what it ain't, and I'm still gonna find Converse and da-da-da-da-da. 01:36:26.239 --> 01:36:38.640 And I'm like, but literally, Converse literally just told you that you do not matter, but your dollar does, and you're still gonna get, and I'm just like, okay, like make this make sense. 01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:39.760 Yeah, yeah. 01:36:40.079 --> 01:36:42.479 Nah, I mean, I'm I'm in the same boat. 01:36:42.640 --> 01:36:53.039 I think, you know, I think some of some of what confuses me about it is not that it happens. 01:36:53.119 --> 01:37:01.439 I mean, this stuff it happens, but to your point, the responses to it in the same way that Fat Joe can just be like, you know what? 01:37:03.279 --> 01:37:05.840 You know, I'm alienating people, XYZ. 01:37:06.079 --> 01:37:08.640 I can go through, I can go through life and not do that. 01:37:08.800 --> 01:37:19.119 In the same way, if people, if enough people see a problem with that kind of imagery, it's simple enough to be like, you know what? 01:37:19.199 --> 01:37:20.880 I don't have to understand it. 01:37:21.199 --> 01:37:24.159 It hurt enough people for me to not be down with it. 01:37:25.439 --> 01:37:26.800 This is the part I don't get. 01:37:26.960 --> 01:37:27.760 You know what I'm saying? 01:37:27.840 --> 01:37:30.560 Like, yeah, that's that's messed up, you know what I'm saying? 01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:31.760 And and I've had to do that. 01:37:31.920 --> 01:37:50.239 My journey, a lot of my journey has been, um, especially I can remember when um, you know, you know, I grew up like, you know, in the South, listening to like Luke and Miami-based booty music, and you know what I mean, like, you know, let's get it, get it, you know what I mean, like, right? 01:37:50.399 --> 01:37:54.640 But then when I got, I remember when I got to started to get to college and I was around different people. 01:37:54.720 --> 01:38:00.880 I was around feminists, I was around like black womanists, I was around people who was challenging me and pushing me. 01:38:01.039 --> 01:38:03.760 I didn't get it at the time. 01:38:04.079 --> 01:38:04.720 But you know what? 01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:06.800 I didn't need to get it at the time. 01:38:07.199 --> 01:38:10.399 I needed to honor other people's experience. 01:38:11.520 --> 01:38:12.399 That was it. 01:38:13.039 --> 01:38:19.039 Once that clicked for me, I ain't gotta argue with you and debate with you, and a lot of this was in like these classes and intellectual sense. 01:38:19.439 --> 01:38:21.520 We don't, we don't, we ain't, we ain't gotta do that. 01:38:21.680 --> 01:38:24.800 I just need to honor your experience. 01:38:25.439 --> 01:38:27.680 Your experience, your, your perspective. 01:38:27.840 --> 01:38:30.640 I need to not harm you. 01:38:32.880 --> 01:38:33.920 That's it. 01:38:34.479 --> 01:38:43.359 So even in terms of like, um, and I think at the end of the day, like to me, that seems relatively simple. 01:38:43.439 --> 01:38:49.199 So I don't my my curiosity, I don't understand why people like you say would double down and say, Oh, I don't see nothing. 01:38:50.159 --> 01:39:00.640 When the reaction and response could be, you know, um I guess that the pivot is is like I don't see nothing and y'all should get over it. 01:39:01.199 --> 01:39:03.039 It could be I don't see it. 01:39:04.880 --> 01:39:07.920 But if y'all got a problem with it, then they should take it down. 01:39:09.760 --> 01:39:11.199 That's the difference. 01:39:12.079 --> 01:39:20.000 You know, um, and I don't know why people want us to get over everything. 01:39:20.159 --> 01:39:26.640 Like, you know, that's part of uh, you know, that black experience is that everybody wants to get over everything. 01:39:26.960 --> 01:39:30.319 The past, now, anything that happened, get over it. 01:39:30.399 --> 01:39:31.359 You know what I'm saying? 01:39:31.600 --> 01:39:38.560 Yeah, because I get that a lot, and then I'll get to the

second to last question because also I want to be mindful of time because it's almost nine o'clock. 01:39:38.880 --> 01:39:43.840 Rerolling here Eastern time, um, and you're um in central time. 01:39:44.399 --> 01:39:53.119 Like when I like I had this conversation with a lot of my white students, and they're like, slavery was so long ago, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:39:53.279 --> 01:39:54.880 And I'm like, but you know what? 01:39:55.039 --> 01:39:56.720 Let me talk about this for a minute. 01:39:56.960 --> 01:39:59.199 The impacts of slavery are still real. 01:39:59.359 --> 01:40:07.600 Like, I was like, so I recently, both my parents recently passed, and I wanted to finish my dad's genealogy project, and I I got stalled a little bit. 01:40:07.680 --> 01:40:07.920 Why? 01:40:08.159 --> 01:40:11.760 Because my people, we are like 90% of the African continent. 01:40:11.920 --> 01:40:17.439 We came over here on that cruise ship that did not have a return ticket and it wasn't pleasurable. 01:40:17.760 --> 01:40:19.600 So there's that. 01:40:19.840 --> 01:40:37.199 And so I saw I told a student, I literally was able to identify the first ancestor in my family who was enslaved but documented on the census, and that was a census from like 1850 something. 01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:42.560 So that's literally a only like five generations removed. 01:40:43.520 --> 01:40:48.319 And then he went, oh, right. 01:40:49.359 --> 01:41:07.680 And I, or even like voting, or even education, like there's still a lot of remnants of slavery, or even when we talk about, like when I talked about, I said, okay, y'all, let's talk about like how prisons operate and how they move people around. 01:41:07.760 --> 01:41:11.279 And then they were like, Oh, they do that in our schools. 01:41:11.520 --> 01:41:14.880 Oh, so I hate, I hate that we are in this moment. 01:41:15.039 --> 01:41:23.119 Not only do we have this revisionist history, they want like they want to pretend that it didn't happen, but they know that it's impacting people. 01:41:23.279 --> 01:41:32.640 And then the people that it's impacting, they are literally telling, like, they are literally beat, like literally beating us and at the same time saying, This doesn't hurt, this doesn't hurt, this doesn't hurt, this doesn't hurt. 01:41:32.800 --> 01:41:35.680 And I'm just like, yo, like, yeah, yeah. 01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:45.520 And you know, the flip side of it is um, you know, the stuff is all in our face, right? 01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:58.720 And I think that the colonization and the destruction, you know, that white folks cause is in our face too. 01:41:58.960 --> 01:42:05.600 And so, you know, people saying, like, you know, y'all want to forget the homestead act, y'all want to come up off that land? 01:42:06.079 --> 01:42:07.279 Y'all want to do that? 01:42:08.159 --> 01:42:09.119 Let's do that then. 01:42:09.279 --> 01:42:11.439 Since we're supposed to get over it, y'all get over it. 01:42:11.600 --> 01:42:12.720 Get that land up then. 01:42:12.800 --> 01:42:13.600 You know what I mean? 01:42:13.760 --> 01:42:16.479 Y'all don't want to do that, you know what I'm saying? 01:42:16.960 --> 01:42:19.920 Um, but then I think so. 01:42:20.000 --> 01:42:27.680 There's those kind of like real material things, but then there's also the psychological things that happen. 01:42:27.760 --> 01:42:32.319 I mean, in terms of like what you're talking about, being able to know your roots, you know. 01:42:32.399 --> 01:42:42.800 So, I mean, you know, we went to uh me and my family traveled to New York and we went to uh do the um Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island tour, which was fantastic. 01:42:43.039 --> 01:42:48.960 All of my life I lived in Philly and I used to go to New York all the time, but I never went to New York as a tourist until last year. 01:42:49.119 --> 01:42:52.399 So I actually went, we was like, we're gonna actually be tourists in New York. 01:42:52.479 --> 01:43:07.039 So we did the we did the uh Statue of Liberty, and then we did, which was much better than I thought it was gonna be the way they did the presentation, because it was really about the debates about liberty and freedom, and very well done. 01:43:07.119 --> 01:43:12.159 So I'm I'm not a flag waving person, but it is worth going to that museum. 01:43:12.319 --> 01:43:19.279 But the Ellis Island thing was a trip because you know, you can walk through it and hear the stories and see the stories and everything. 01:43:19.359 --> 01:43:26.159 But the sad part is that, like, if uh if you black, you ain't in them records. 01:43:27.840 --> 01:43:28.800 You know what I mean? 01:43:28.960 --> 01:43:52.079 So it's just like so, even in terms of like something for a 10-year-old and a 12-year-old child to be able to go into this experience, it's supposed to be, you know, this, you know, uniquely kind of American, come to America, American dreamish type, you know, tour, which everybody wasn't able to, everybody wasn't let in. 01:43:52.399 --> 01:44:03.439 But the fact that when you get to the end of the tour and you get to the archival room, all the lots of people can sit down and look up their people. 01:44:03.680 --> 01:44:08.960 And then a 10-year-old and 12-year-old black child, you just keep walking. 01:44:09.680 --> 01:44:11.039 You ain't in there. 01:44:11.520 --> 01:44:12.319 You know what I'm saying? 01:44:12.399 --> 01:44:36.960 So, like, I think the the amount of injury, I think the people just um understate the amount of kind of just like injury and how uh every day we walk through the world as all these reminders um that of how of why how we were brought here. 01:44:37.199 --> 01:44:39.840 Um and then and then and this is the important thing too. 01:44:39.920 --> 01:44:53.920 So even when we go back to this idea of writing and stories, you know, um understanding, you know, pre-colonial African civilizations and understanding that like, you know, our stories don't start here.

01:44:54.079 --> 01:45:04.079 Um, and that the reasons that we were uh stolen was not just because we were strong, it's because baby, we were genius. 01:45:04.560 --> 01:45:09.840 Find me somebody who knew how to create a rice deal and cultivate rice. 01:45:10.239 --> 01:45:17.119 That took engineering ingenuity that only a small group of people on the globe knew how to do. 01:45:17.840 --> 01:45:22.640 Same thing with indigo, same thing with tobacco, same thing with sugar cane. 01:45:22.960 --> 01:45:26.960 So even we start talking about, you know, my daughter asked, like, you know, why would they do this? 01:45:27.119 --> 01:45:29.199 And I was like, sugar addiction? 01:45:30.800 --> 01:45:31.600 Addictive. 01:45:32.079 --> 01:45:33.199 You know what I mean? 01:45:33.439 --> 01:45:35.520 Y'all making it seem like we the fiends. 01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:42.159 Folks want sugar in their tea, you know, um, and tobacco, which is also addictive. 01:45:42.399 --> 01:45:48.800 All of these initial first cash crops, and then the royal, the, these, uh, the the royal folks, they wanted indigo. 01:45:49.359 --> 01:45:51.199 So their clothes look nice. 01:45:52.159 --> 01:45:58.399 So um, I was like, addiction and vanity, which set a lot of this into motion, right? 01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:00.560 Gold and all this kind of stuff. 01:46:00.880 --> 01:46:14.960 Which, so I mean, I feel like those are the stories that are important to for young people to know and for people to understand that we was brought here because we were engineering geniuses on a global scale. 01:46:15.279 --> 01:46:16.479 You know what I'm saying? 01:46:16.720 --> 01:46:22.399 And um, so for me, that's why I think that it's important that black people write. 01:46:22.640 --> 01:46:34.880 And it's also important that we read so that we understand and have an accurate understanding of kind of like who we are and um all of the genius and and and wonder that we bring to the world. 01:46:35.199 --> 01:46:45.039 And speaking of that, before I get to Vanessa's question and then we wrap up, this is why I was so enamored at Black Panther when it came out. 01:46:45.199 --> 01:47:00.880 Because I was like, and I took I I saw that movie I don't know how many times, I took people, I because I was just like, the thing that I loved about that movie, and I wish it was something that we did as a society now, is black brilliance existed without the white savior. 01:47:01.119 --> 01:47:10.960 And right now we have a lot of this whole well, Nicole, you are where you are because you had access to a pre-college program that somebody paid for you to be at. 01:47:11.119 --> 01:47:16.560 And I'm like, yes, and what if I was just smart already? 01:47:17.920 --> 01:47:28.000 You know, and this is why I love Black Panther, because black brilliance just existed without this white savior amplifying what the what they were doing. 01:47:28.239 --> 01:47:28.560 Right. 01:47:28.720 --> 01:47:30.079 Absolutely, absolutely.

01:47:30.239 --> 01:47:34.800 I mean, I think that's why that the story resonated with people. 01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:40.880 I and the thing about it is that like it's not far, it's it's not really far-fetched. 01:47:41.199 --> 01:47:41.920 You know what I mean? 01:47:42.079 --> 01:47:44.239 Like when we look at it, it's really not far-fetched. 01:47:44.479 --> 01:47:54.319 Like, you know, for us to either even survive everything that we put through, like, requires brilliance. 01:47:55.439 --> 01:47:55.840 Yeah. 01:47:56.079 --> 01:47:58.239 So um the second last question that I have. 01:47:58.319 --> 01:48:02.319 So this question comes from my dear friend and colleague, Dr. 01:48:02.399 --> 01:48:03.600 Vanessa Martinez. 01:48:03.840 --> 01:48:09.199 She's professor of anthropology and the coordinator of our community-based learning program. 01:48:10.319 --> 01:48:23.199 Her question is: in this moment, where where equity is needed more than ever and seemingly hated more than ever by many in positions of power, what gives you hope that progress on racial equity is still possible? 01:48:24.960 --> 01:48:33.279 You know, sometimes the hope depends on what day you ask me, um, or what week or when. 01:48:33.840 --> 01:48:44.880 But I think the hope comes from understanding of our past. 01:48:45.039 --> 01:48:47.520 So kind of leading into what we're talking about. 01:48:48.159 --> 01:49:08.159 Um, the brilliance, the resilience, the perseverance, the fact that we only are talking about reading in a society that didn't want us to read, that we writing in a society that didn't want us to write, you know, that's the drawing of truth. 01:49:08.960 --> 01:49:14.319 Um, you know, uh Frederick Douglass. 01:49:14.960 --> 01:49:25.039 Um that we doing stuff that like nobody wants us to do, and we have the audacity to just do it anyway. 01:49:25.760 --> 01:49:28.239 I mean, I feel like that's what gives me hope. 01:49:28.319 --> 01:49:34.479 And I feel like um, yeah, we just gonna do it. 01:49:35.199 --> 01:49:49.119 Because yeah, because we have um so many shining examples of what's possible in what seems like hopeless situations. 01:49:50.000 --> 01:49:51.600 Um if we pay attention. 01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:54.960 If we pay attention, we have lots of examples. 01:49:55.359 --> 01:49:58.640 Um so for me, uh that's what gives me hope. 01:49:58.720 --> 01:50:07.199 I mean, I sometimes You know, I'm careful about a lot of the kind of language I use. 01:50:07.680 --> 01:50:15.840 And so sometimes you I'll have, you know, especially black academics talk about the university as like, oh, it's a plantation, this sort and that sort of thing. 01:50:16.000 --> 01:50:23.279 And I kind of don't get into that kind of I get where people are coming from, but I just feel like nah. 01:50:23.359 --> 01:50:24.560 Like, you know what I'm saying? 01:50:24.640 --> 01:50:29.760 Like I see what you're trying to say, but it's not the same. 01:50:30.079 --> 01:50:48.000 Um and you know, so anyway, I just feel like we have a lot of shining examples of resilience and brilliance, and um, that we can read and that we can write, and that everybody everybody wants to be like us. 01:50:49.039 --> 01:50:50.880 Fat Joe wanna be like us. 01:50:51.439 --> 01:50:53.119 He wanted to when he was growing up. 01:50:53.359 --> 01:50:54.800 We embraced him. 01:50:55.760 --> 01:50:56.960 You know what I'm coming from? 01:50:57.119 --> 01:51:04.880 So when I talk about this spirit of the spirit that we have that we accepting of all people, like that's what we do. 01:51:05.359 --> 01:51:06.239 You know what I mean? 01:51:06.399 --> 01:51:18.640 And it was a trip because I went to um I went to uh Brazil last October, and we went to the uh Afro-Brazilian Museum in Sao Paulo. 01:51:18.960 --> 01:51:21.119 And interestingly, a lot of people had never been to it. 01:51:21.279 --> 01:51:29.760 We talked to them, they didn't even know where it was, but we went to it and they had this display of black women caretakers, of you know, white families. 01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:31.439 I was like, this is the same thing in the U.S. 01:51:31.600 --> 01:51:47.359 Like we we have the we have this tremendous capacity to love on people's, and I always say, perhaps maybe to our detriment, but whatever, whatever the outcome of the consequence of it is, we have this incredible capacity to be loving people. 01:51:47.600 --> 01:51:53.760 Um, and systematically in the ways that people have harmed us, we ain't ever hurt or harmed nobody in that kind of way. 01:51:53.920 --> 01:51:55.920 And we never even planned on doing it. 01:51:56.720 --> 01:51:57.840 You know what I'm saying? 01:51:58.079 --> 01:52:03.359 Like we never have put our brilliance and genius to that kind of stuff. 01:52:03.760 --> 01:52:23.760 So um, you know, I feel like that uh the spirit uh that black people have moved in is what gives me um a tremendous amount of hope for the future, and that includes things around like solidarities because look, once people just when people get their stuff together, we're gonna accept you. 01:52:24.079 --> 01:52:26.560 We're gonna say we know you were tripping, it's okay. 01:52:26.880 --> 01:52:28.079 Come on in here and get this hug. 01:52:28.159 --> 01:52:28.720 That's how we act. 01:52:28.960 --> 01:52:30.960 Like, yeah, baby, come on, come on in to okay. 01:52:31.760 --> 01:52:35.199 You know you you know you was acting crazy, but come on in here. 01:52:35.359 --> 01:52:36.560 Come on, what you want to eat? 01:52:36.640 --> 01:52:37.119 You hungry? 01:52:37.279 --> 01:52:38.239 Yep, you hungry. 01:52:38.479 --> 01:52:40.079 Let me fix your plate. 01:52:40.560 --> 01:52:41.439 That's us. 01:52:41.840 --> 01:52:43.680 Yeah, you know what I mean? 01:52:43.840 --> 01:52:48.800 And um, and we have a wonderful written record of it. 01:52:49.119 --> 01:52:53.119 Um, and we have an oral tradition that helps us understand it. 01:52:53.199 --> 01:52:56.720 And if we pay

attention to ourselves, that's how we operate. 01:52:56.880 --> 01:53:04.079 And um, at the end of the day, I feel like that spirit of kind of like love and inclusiveness and stuff is gonna win our over everything else. 01:53:04.560 --> 01:53:08.079 And so as we wrap up tonight, Dr. 01:53:08.319 --> 01:53:09.119 Dakota J. 01:53:09.279 --> 01:53:17.359 Irby, I would love to know what is next for you and how can the Black Writers read community support you on this journey? 01:53:18.479 --> 01:53:20.560 Um, what is next for me? 01:53:20.880 --> 01:53:25.119 I am two things that I'm excited about. 01:53:25.279 --> 01:53:28.880 I need to get back, I have lots of music that I need to finish up. 01:53:29.199 --> 01:53:34.720 Um, so I have I got some songs that I need to finish up. 01:53:34.800 --> 01:53:37.680 So my goal is to have a project come out next year. 01:53:38.000 --> 01:53:40.720 Which, by the way, are you a member of Ask Cap yet? 01:53:41.039 --> 01:53:41.520 I am. 01:53:41.600 --> 01:53:42.000 Yes, I am. 01:53:42.319 --> 01:53:42.720 Me too. 01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:44.159 I recently became a member. 01:53:44.399 --> 01:53:44.960 Yes, I am. 01:53:45.119 --> 01:53:45.760 Yes, I am. 01:53:46.000 --> 01:53:46.479 Yeah. 01:53:46.640 --> 01:54:24.800 Um, and then I'm also I'm a member of a consulting cooperative called Dark Consulting Cooperative, and we are in the very early stages of writing um a book uh that will be kind of uh um a fiction book about two people, a group or collective of people trying their best to make decisions in a world where white supremacy and the self-kind of doubt that comes along with living in a white supremacist society suggests to us that we don't have enough. 01:54:25.119 --> 01:54:37.359 And that um what happens when we learn to lean on each other and depend on each other and realize that while we might not have everything we need, we have a whole lot of it. 01:54:37.600 --> 01:54:41.760 And if we could see that in ourselves, what could we get out of it? 01:54:41.840 --> 01:54:55.359 And so it's gonna be kind of a children's kind of book along the lines of mix together, you know, Animal Farm and Pinocchio and James in a giant peach type situation with those kind of characters. 01:54:55.439 --> 01:54:56.800 It's very funny. 01:54:57.039 --> 01:55:02.159 Um, a lot of humor, a lot of magic, and that kind of stuff. 01:55:02.239 --> 01:55:09.359 And we're writing it collectively through this process of passing forward um the different sections and chapters. 01:55:09.520 --> 01:55:21.279 So I'll write a section and then I pass it to my colleague to write a section, and we have a limited time frame in which we can actually write our sections and then we pass it to the next person, and we're gonna write the story. 01:55:21.439 --> 01:55:29.199 And we haven't decided how we're gonna actually get that out to the world, but it'll be something that'll be uh, I think a treat for people to read when we finish it. 01:55:31.600 --> 01:55:39.600 So um, as I promised off air, I will uh use this interchangeably. 01:55:39.840 --> 01:55:44.960 Um given that we're colleagues, but also too, I I hold you in high regard, um, Dr. 01:55:45.039 --> 01:55:45.520 Irby. 01:55:45.680 --> 01:55:48.800 So Dakota, thank you so much for being on this evening. 01:55:48.960 --> 01:55:49.840 Like thank you. 01:55:50.079 --> 01:55:56.960 Like, like I said, when your publicist reached out to me to book you, I looked you up and I was like, yeah. 01:55:57.119 --> 01:55:58.560 She was like, Do you have space for him? 01:55:58.640 --> 01:55:59.279 Yep, yep. 01:55:59.359 --> 01:56:00.479 I will make space. 01:56:00.720 --> 01:56:04.239 I will I I will knock people, I will move people around. 01:56:04.720 --> 01:56:08.720 I was like, yes, he needs to be on here. 01:56:08.880 --> 01:56:10.000 Like, yes. 01:56:10.399 --> 01:56:11.199 Thank you so much. 01:56:11.520 --> 01:56:12.399 I really appreciate it. 01:56:12.479 --> 01:56:13.039 I appreciate it. 01:56:13.119 --> 01:56:26.159 And I mean, you know, great questions, and I I'm I'm deeply appreciative, especially because I'm not I'm not the most uh outgoing in terms of like, you know, conversations and stuff like that. 01:56:26.239 --> 01:56:27.439 But you really drew me in. 01:56:27.680 --> 01:56:28.319 So, you know what I mean? 01:56:32.079 --> 01:56:47.119 Yeah, because I tell people, um, I literally tell people, and one conversation coming up, like I literally have to prep myself because I don't want to fangirl, fangirl, fangirl, fangirl to where people cannot engage and listen. 01:56:47.279 --> 01:56:53.680 But I tell people, this is you're and actually somebody who reviewed the podcast said this. 01:56:53.760 --> 01:56:59.359 They were like, you're listening on a conversation of cousins who haven't talked in a long time. 01:57:00.079 --> 01:57:15.680 And and also I tell people, you are listening in on a conversation among friends and colleagues who are talking about their work, and I'm learning from you all because I in the midst of this podcast, because this podcast was not supposed to happen. 01:57:15.840 --> 01:57:18.239 It was only supposed to be a one-night event. 01:57:18.399 --> 01:57:22.560 Um, and then all of a sudden it just blew up and it continues to blow up, blow up, blow up. 01:57:22.720 --> 01:57:28.239 And in that span, I had to take time away from my own writing from and from my own creative practice. 01:57:28.399 --> 01:57:30.640 But I'm also just like, I need to keep engaged. 01:57:30.800 --> 01:57:33.279 I can't just can, I just can't disconnect. 01:57:33.520 --> 01:57:35.680 So I learned a lot from all of you. 01:57:35.840 --> 01:57:59.760 Y'all were my masterclasses in terms of like I have, and this is so I do, and for folks, I have a mini-series follow-up to all of this called After the Read that will be on Substack, where I do like mini bites of the things that I took away from the conversation and how I'm applying it to my own work and how others should apply it to their work, but you will only find it on Substack, y'all. 01:57:59.840 --> 01:58:02.000 So please make sure to subscribe there. 01:58:02.079 --> 01:58:07.119 But it's like like the little, the little learnings, because I've learned so much from all of you. 01:58:07.199 --> 01:58:20.079 And again, this is like why this podcast is so important, not only because we need to write, but we are all experts in what we're doing, and we need to share what we're doing so that other people can learn that as well. 01:58:20.319 --> 01:58:21.439 Yeah, absolutely. 01:58:21.680 --> 01:58:22.159 Yeah. 01:58:22.640 --> 01:58:23.920 Thank you so much, Nicole. 01:58:24.159 --> 01:58:25.439 This was this was fantastic. 01:58:25.600 --> 01:58:26.880 Time well spent. 01:58:30.239 --> 01:58:33.119 Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Black Writers Read. 01:58:33.279 --> 01:58:35.760 Black Writers Read is available on all platforms. 01:58:36.000 --> 01:58:40.640 Please subscribe to the podcast and also write us a review to help others find us. 01:58:40.880 --> 01:58:52.880 We're now on TopStack, the official Black Writers Read newsletter, where we'll be sharing insight into the upcoming episodes, and I will be writing about my own writing adventure. 01:58:53.199 --> 01:59:01.600 StopStack will also be the new home for the many series after the read with my take on the recently aired live broadcast. 01:59:01.920 --> 01:59:11.840 Please be sure to check out the show notes to learn how you can support this a one-way, independently produced, and independently funded virtual platform. 01:59:12.800 --> 01:59:17.760 Thanks again for taking this work and for ensuring that Black Writers continue to matter.