התמלול המלא של Coltrane Curtis Built Influencer Marketing Before Instagram Existed

they're receiving kind of like all of these options. But the reality is, is you really want that first level human being. I want Frank Ocean, right? I want to get him engaged in my brand campaign, right? There's a way to do it. Is it hard? Yeah. Is it not linear? Of course. But there are ways in which to kind of really identify, have a relationship with the people that you actually want to be able to work with, and then figure that pathway out and see if those two brands align. Like I always say, like most influential people are famous for things that they're not passionate about. Right. Like the first thing about me is like, you know, you'd be like, oh, like you see the car, you see the you see all the things. But, you know, I'm a dad. Right. And the way in which I parent, I'm so passionate and knowledgeable about that. The best way to activate me is in that space. And so, you know, while it's like, hey, you know, if I was one of these people, right, it's like, you know, Work for the spirit brand and have hold this cocktail in your hand. And, you know, I'm going to send you the copy to put underneath your post and, you know, all those different things. But net net, what I really would like to be able to do is, you know, tell you some cool museums to go to on a rainy Saturday and, you know, a top 10 market with your eight year old. Right. Talk to me about that. And so I think what brands have to really figure out is how do they have a non-business personal relationship with the talent that they're working with and then identify those those what happens in the crosshairs, that's where the beautiful things happen, where you get those kind of like organic synergies between brand and personality, and then you attack that thing. But it really takes time, it takes intention, and I think it's the things that we at Team Epiphany just do better than everybody, right? We're created to do those things, and that's the reason why I think our work has always worked because we're tapping the community that creates the celebrity, not necessarily just the celebrity. And to me, the people who build it are actually more talented than the people who take credit for it. And so we've been talking about influence when we started the agency in 04, our tagline was we influence influencers in 2004, which is wild, right? Like completely wild and documented too, you know, but like, look where this influential thing has taken everybody, you know? Yeah. 00:07:44 Speaker 1: So with, with, The conversation of the day. Nobody can have a conversation without talking about AI. You know, everybody has the same tools now. You have the same chat GPT I have. You have the same Claude or Grok or Jim. You have the same one I have. And I did it earlier this year. I did one of my prediction episodes where I talked about, I believe, taste was going to be the differentiator. 00:08:07 Speaker 3: Get out of my head. Go ahead. Yeah. 00:08:10 Speaker 1: And so when everybody has the same thing,

when every brand has the same models and Because you see the same models on everybody's things. They have the same trend reports. They have the same data. Where does that edge come from? 00:08:21 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But with the input into it. Right. Like and I think that's the reason why. Like, I mean, obviously, you know, I got a 14 will document. I got a 14 and eight year old. And it's really interesting how, you know, my experience on this end impacts the way in which I'm raising them. Like, what are their hard skills going to be? What are what are some of their soft skills going to be? What are their interests going to be? And so I want to create them. So they're always, you know. relevant in whatever marketplace or world that they're in, and especially going into the world of AI, it's really about what you put in. I want to make sure that my kids are well-traveled because experiences are what spawn all types of creativity. I want to make sure that the bookmarks are completely open-ended for them. I want them to be able to communicate what they see right and have some you know i would just say values that allows them to kind of like carry what we treat them and we teach them at home but also with their experiences in the world and i think that's going to make you know this you know just make them be able to compete in the world in which we're going in um i think it's it's it's it's it's really it's it's going to shake people out, right? Because those who don't have the actual lived experience won't have the inputs to actually be able to use the platforms, right? And that's something that, you know, even here at the agency, I still sit on every single job interview, right? Not necessarily to figure out who's adding up and, you know, and, you know, what I'm really trying to feel like is what do you do and what worlds and communities do you belong to and how do you have hard skill sets that can communicate what they're seeing in the real world back here to the agency and then allowing that to impact the work, right? And so that's just something where I just think lived experience and, and, And passions beyond just compensation for them. It's going to shake a lot of people out because I think we're really living in a world where, you know, the dollar is driving it. But in a minute, I think those who have the lived experiences will be those kind of like the director seat. 00:10:26 Speaker 2: You know, there are people. 00:10:28 Speaker 1: Working to create fashion let's say let's take fashion um these days you can't pull up ig without have some somebody you know with a label that they're trying to get going and i want to come at this question from this perspective there was a an era a particular era of celebrity clothing that was like a gold rush and it ended badly for many um but there are no notable anomalies i think about kim kardashian with skims and um i'm trying to feel like what What is the difference between being famous, a famous

name and like a real brand that these people who are trying to get their thing going can learn from? 00:11:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, 100 percent. Right. I don't think everyone can have a brand. Right. We kind of like say that you've seen big A-list superstars have brands, you know, that just don't work. You see a bunch of them who probably will never work for them. Right. Because, you know, their image is unbelievable. It's too perfect. Right. you know or their image is not even achievable right and so even working for like a fashion company if you know consumer can't look like said celebrity you know regardless of what they're wearing you know you can't really it's not going to work and a lot of times you see square peg circle hole bang hard and you know pray for you know pray for sell-through right um it's not in that world now right it's got to be kind of like lived and believable and i think talent celebrities whatever we're calling them at this particular time, those who are as transparent and as human as the consumer are the brands that actually have a shot or are, or that said talent has an opportunity to turn themselves into a brand, right? Um, you know, you'll see how many celebrity brands, fashion brands have you seen come and go, right? Um, and, um, you can tell that they're coming and going because they're now collaborating with bigger brands at such a reckless pace that even now that has stalled and hasn't worked, right? I think we're in the era of like, please no more collaboration unless it makes sense or is making something better, right? Like I don't need... another shoe in a weird colorway with some kind of like not clever backstory that's going to make me want to purchase. And, you know, as you said, you said, oh, gee, sometimes, you know, you know, I get uncle G because I'm 50. And that's what my my my son's friends call me is like, oh, you're a cool dad, but you're kind of like, oh, you know, I was like, don't ever call me that again. But the reality with them is that they see through it, too. Right. Like they know that, you know, they're being sold something. Right. Like the sense of, you know, being able to really see yourself in that person's shoes and seeing the struggle, seeing the work. You know, that's where I really like like talent and artists who utilize social media to become more transparent, not as not more glossy or polished. Right. Right. When I use social, it's kind of interesting. Most people don't know I'm pretty heavily colorblind. And so that's the reason why I post all my stories in black and white and everything in my feed is in color. I post way more in stories than I do because it's kind of like my daily thing. But the one thing you'll see me always talking about is my family. And the things that I'm doing, the things that are important, the people that are important to me. And, you know, you have some people who, you know, if they post their kid, they put a blurry face on them. Right. So you can't see who they are. I've never been that person. Right. I've always opened myself up to some of the challenges that I've had. School selections, wins, losses. Yeah. I'm very transparent personally there. Right. And it's because I want, you know, I want brand. Right. To know who I am and the values that we have here at the agency. I run the agency with my wife. Right. And so I started it with my wife. You know, I think this will be year 24 next year. And I think next year we would be married 20 years. You know, Team Epiphany was our first baby, you know. And it's really interesting to be able for people to be able to see that, you know, like I always tell people, give me advice. I'd be like, well, you know. You know, business with your wife, you know, I was like, it works perfectly for me. But, you know, do as I say, not as I do. Like we have, you know, heavy, heavy L rate, you know, kind of like working with your significant other. But maybe people want to get an understanding of how we pull it off, you know, because if you do. it's a beautiful thing because you'd be able to get the opportunity to spend your day with the person you love the most. Right. And so for me, I just think like, it's really more about like, how can we utilize all the platforms we have to be as transparent as possible? Because I think when you become vulnerable and transparent, people learn the most, you know, like I figured some things out. I'm really horrible at others. Right. Like, and so let's share in that conversation. Let's not talk about all the dubs because they're way more L's than dubs in this game. You know, like when we go to pitch for business, we lose way more than we win, you know, and you learn. Right. Like you learn. My dad always tells me or used to always tell me you can make as many mistakes as you want. Don't make the same mistake twice, you know. And and that's agency life. Right. Like every pitch, you get better. Every idea works. Even if it's the best idea, it still may not win because you haven't figured out how to, you know, how to connect with the person in the room that you're selling the idea and concept to. And so for me, lots of learning, you know, and I want people to learn just so, you know, you can get better, you know. 00:15:56 Speaker 1: When you started that answer, I thought about this old Kanye line. We said, you know, when Lady Gaga was at Kodak, he's like, or whatever, Fujifilm, whatever. He's like, you know, what does he know about cameras? And I was thinking about there are people who want to do a thing and sell a product and build a brand off things and they don't ultimately work. And I wonder, like, how do you know what people want to buy from you? Like, so if I want to start a clothing line, you know, I'm like, do people think about clothes when they see me? You know, but how do you do that calculus? 00:16:33 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think you've got to be connected to talent. Right. Like I'll give you a case in point, you

know, and I name names. So, you know, I hope they don't get mad at me. Right. I don't like speaking in vague terms. Right. You know, you know, D-Nice has been our homie forever, you know, forever. And, you know, the one thing is that, you know, there's D-Nice and there's Derek, and then there's, you know, post-COVID D-Nice, right? And it's still D-Nice to us. It's one guy. And, you know, while everybody was, you know, really talking about Club Quarantine, how great of a DJ, you know, his place in hip-hop history, the one thing we knew about D was that he was a great photographer and was an avid Leica camera collector. Before this even all started, I remember the first piece that we actually did with D wasn't him DJing for us. It was actually him shooting an ad campaign. I think it was for Crown Royal 15, 20 years ago. What was so cool about that was his love of photography, his love of monochromatic black and white photography. To me, that's the entry point to be able to use D. Still to this point, I don't think any brand has really leveraged him in a way that really touches what he's most passionate about. The reason why you know that is because that's a family friend. These are the things that we talk about. These are the things like his dreams and aspirations. Again, getting really close to people and understanding their passion. You know, it doesn't matter how big the person is, who they are, what they got. Like some people are interested in really unique niche things, you know. And if you can really tap into that, that's where the magic happens, you know. And we lose our way. Right. We lose our way with, you know. You know, the metrics and the numbers and the likes and the followers and the engagement rate and all the things. Right. But the reality of the corporate is there a sincere connection to this. Right. And if you have that, then you can build from there. That's the nucleus. And so, you know, again, you know, for us to know everybody like that. Impossible. We do not have an agency silver bullet. And so the challenge behind that is that everything isn't for us. I don't take every project, right? I take the things that we know that we can kill. And what that does, it really... challenge is how big and at what pace you can grow the agency. Now, Team Epiphany, we're like 100 people. We're pretty a large company. But it took 20-something years to get here. It's over time. It wasn't like there was some huge hockey stick. And it was because we were very methodical and very purposeful in terms of the projects that we want to work on. And the people that we get an opportunity to work on in brands, because we always say that, you know, we can kill projects, but it's really about do we have a great working relationship with the people on the brand team? That's who really allows, you know, and fosters the opportunity to do great work. And so, again, it really always goes down to human connection. And I think, you know, The scariest thing is, you

know, most people nowadays don't look up and see things, you know, like you're always on your phone and um and human connection is is at an all-time low and so again back to my kids my kid might have been the last one in his classroom in his grade to get a cell phone you know um and it was because we wanted him to be able to connect in in real life situations. 00:20:03 Speaker 1: Part of how I came to know you and your work is I have a marketing agency, also marketing video production. And so I've known who you were for a while. And so I want to test a kind of philosophy that I've had in my business on you. And I want you to, you know, destruct it, like, you know, just reconstruct it if it's still relevant or whatever. So I've had people, let's say authors will come to me. And they'll say, you know, I have this book that I wrote and I need your help marketing the book. And I'm like, you should have called me two years ago. And so because part of the issue is how do you even know people want this book from you? And so so my suggestion is write one chapter of a book, put it online. Hey, you give me your email address. I'll give you you get the free chapter. in your inbox for free. And not until you have whatever metric you select, 1,000 names, 10,000 names, 100,000 names, do you go write the rest of the book because you know people actually want it and you have a means to get to them. And so the reason I ask that question is I wonder how do you think about seeding interest or gauging interest. 00:21:17 Speaker 2: Before you launch? 00:21:18 Speaker 1: So is it okay to just do a grand reveal or do we need to be seeding interest in things? Should I have my IG full of things before I even announce that something's coming? 00:21:31 Speaker 3: A hundred percent. I mean, it's a strategic rollout. Um, Yeah. So this is the age old question again. Time. Right. Like, you know, earnings doesn't, you know, this relationship with time is not the best. You know, when you're coming on the brand teams like, you know, they want it now, they want it big. They want it always. Right. You see it kind of in PR. Right. We have a PR operation here and, you know, brands always come to us and they'll be like, hey, I want to be in The New York Times. Right. That's their goal all the time. Right. And it's not like, you know, the New York Times pieces. It's you know, it's kind of funny because New York Times pieces don't necessarily drive like immediate consumption. They drive kind of like brand equity. And more importantly, it kind of just elevates, you know, the team is more of a personal ask. Brand people are generally asking when they want to be in the Times, which I get 100 percent. I'd like to be in the Times, too. But when we go back and we've successfully gotten a bunch of our clients there. But the reality is, it's like. From a strategic perspective, the work was aligned and created and engineered to be there. What is the groundbreaking thing that we're talking about?

They're not going to write, hey, this brand did A, B, C, and D. Take a look. And it's not going to be that prescriptive. It has to be immersive in culture. It has to be discovered. It has to be pulled through the pipeline. You're not influencing a New York Times writer. And so for us, we like to get into the room as early as possible so we can affect the strategy. And now what we're really understanding is even being able to affect the strategy, you want to get in so early that you want to get in when They're doing all the focus groups and all the data collection because what we're really finding is the fact that if we got the right insight, the right strategy, the right tactics, and everything is lining up, the bigger the brand, the more data and information that they need to help them tell the story of the insights. And if you don't have both and they're not lockstep, you don't have a shot. No brand is investing anywhere. you know, heavy, heavy, heavy ends into a concept that doesn't have data support. And so for us, it's very important to get in as early as humanly possible on that stuff. And so but it doesn't necessarily happen that way. And so what we really find ourselves doing is moving quickly and moving faster than sometimes with the brands are, you know, you run real fast and you run over your feet. Like, you know, the speed at which brands have to move, they can't even move that fast. And so we have to account manage them through the speed. We have to get them up to speed on why we're making these kinds of like cultural decisions. And then we actually have to go. So being able to kind of like see things, You know, over a longer period of time, I think is the way to go. You know, even when you have an event. Right. Like we're doing something for I think we're looking at a Super Bowl activation right now. You know, hot take. Right. And the client was asking us, well, what should we do? And we should we should announce what we're doing as early as humanly possible. Right. Because we're competing for the same consumer, same mind share as other brands who have deeper resources, more media. And for us, I think what's really great is if we can start the conversation about this one set experience months prior. that window of opportunity and consumer engagement is longer on the front end and is extended post the event. And so when we really think about having a communication with a consumer earlier, it's always great. And especially if you can direct what they're talking about in some type of campaign. And so if you get into a friendly banter between your celebrity hosts about the event, if there is a really cool, hard invite, Right. That people can see share on social prior to the experience that works really well. But I think that, you know, I think it's more of a comms initiative and a strategic comms initiative that needs to happen before experiences. But as long as you're strategic, going early is great. And being consistent with that is also great. 00:25:25 Speaker 1: But bringing that to like small and medium sized business, I get like, you know, there are the big companies of the world who have the time to invest. But like, what if I've got a pizza company and I'm building a uh, culture forward, you know, black owned, you know, probably hip hop culture pizza. Like what, what am I doing tactically to, am I like, like what am I literally doing day to day a year before it opens or am I doing nothing publicly? 00:25:55 Speaker 3: Well, the first thing that I would do running a business, you know, when I started this business, it was zero base. We had no dollars and we had to figure it out. Right. Um, the first thing I would be thinking about, um, hot take on a, on a pizza company is one, I would look at the price of a slice of pizza. We were just complaining the other day, like in the city, you can't get a slice of pizza less than five, $ 7, right? Before it used to be a buck 50. And why are they claiming five to $ 7? It's because the ingredients, their luxury, you know, you know, great tomatoes imported from Italy, like all these different fun things on the pizza. Right. But the first thing, and by doing that, you're saying that your pizza is somewhat luxurious, right? You have, you know, fine ingredients, right? I would apply that same strategy to every marketing touch point of pizza My brand. Right. Like so I would be thinking about the boxes that I use. You know, how do I find a way to elevate that piece of cardboard to the same level as my pizza? I would be thinking about innovative ways to utilize, you know, hyper local out of home. Right. I'm a big component of a high low. I'm a big fan of wheat pasting and looking and utilizing that as art. Wheat pasting. 00:26:59 Speaker 2: Say that again. 00:27:00 Speaker 3: Wheat pasting. Right. So like outdoor snipes are kind of like with the, you know, rollers and they kind of go up and you kind of like put those up. I'm in Ohio. 00:27:09 Speaker 2: We don't have that. 00:27:11 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. We're bringing it. We're bringing it. I don't know if our P & G client wants us kind of like plastering all the Ohio with, you know. you know, a tie product, but I'm a big fan of wheat paste. And, you know, I would think about how I would utilize out of home in a, in a, in a impactful, but, you know, synergistic way to the way in which my pizza was made. I would look at my napkins. I would look at, you know, is there innovative cup system that I can, can I, can I plug in and talk about those innovations and, Prior to even tasting the pizza, because just the way it's presented, I think that would help you now sell that slice for nine dollars and ten bucks a slice. Right. And so for me, I would just really think about how do you elevate the overlooked touch points? Because it shows intent and thoughtfulness about who your consumer is. And those are the things that get picked up. Like, every time you go

to a coffee shop, you know, think about how, you know, I remember we worked on a program, I think it was for Absolute, way back in the day. And we took the, you know, the essence of the New York City kind of like Greek coffee cup, right? Like that blue and white kind of like iconic 50 cent, 75 cent coffee cup and turned it into something. It's because that cup was designed and it's a piece of art. And so... it literally makes that $ 75, 75 cent cup of coffee that used to be back in the day, get you through your day, right? A little sugar and a couple of cream, then you're good to go. That was pre, you know, baristas on every corner, but it was the touch point of that cup. And so I would think about always elevating the touch points before I even start talking about the products. 00:28:46 Speaker 1: So 98% of the conversations I have in my daily life have something to do with AI these days. And I think about the, the world that we're walking into. So a year ago, you could, you, everybody was scared because AI is coming for all the jobs. And then companies started laying off people and, you know, the job market got crazy. And then the big companies realized it wasn't ready yet, started hiring people back. And so now everybody's like, okay, you really couldn't do this without us. 00:29:16 Speaker 2: You know, you thought you could do AI, you couldn't. 00:29:19 Speaker 1: But I look at this like, you ever see somebody who's like dying and for some reason like. 00:29:24 Speaker 2: They get like really better right before they die. 00:29:28 Speaker 1: And i'm like this feels like that to me it's like you know something was dying and or someone was dying then. 00:29:36 Speaker 2: But right the week before they died they got up. 00:29:39 Speaker 1: And walked and you know wanted to go to the park and wanted to do this and then unfortunately passed that's what this feels like to me because I think about those cycles of like today this is the worst AI is ever going to be again today whatever it is right now is the worst it's ever going to be from now on. And so I wonder when you think about the work that you do, creatives and the people you work with, creatives, influencers, people who you employ, how can we be prepared for the world that we're walking into as best we can? 00:30:18 Speaker 3: No, no. I mean, I think, you know, to, you know, the first part of just, you know, when your back is up in a wall, you get your best work. Right. Like it's kind of like, you know, pressure is a pressure bus pipes, but it also makes diamonds. Right. Like I think when people, you know, can see and touch and taste a life that they are not that's not commensurate with their vision of themselves. they get after it, right? Like you really get after it. And I think being in environments, I think New York City is that kind of place, right? Like you, you know, as you, I came up here, you know, there've been many weeks, many days in the week where you have multiple, you know, reflections that like, okay, hold up, this thing is slipping away from me, right? Like you actually feel it going away. And that's why I think like, you know, places like this, you know, breeds killers because you see your inevitable negative fate more than most people do. And it makes you get up, get out as goodie mob would say and get some, you know what I mean? Um, and that's, that is what I've am frightened for this next generation. The most is their inability to actually fail and their, them being okay with what, they have today, right? Like they don't necessarily push as much as we did, you know? Um, and we fight really hard and I think we've done a very good job here at the agency identifying, you know, those outliers of this new generation who push and fight and aren't afraid to fail and fracture, right? Like I always say, like, you know, when I was at Echo, you know, the one thing I can say about that experience is one, thank you, God. And two, to Mark and Seth, thank you for giving me the opportunity to fail up. Right. Like that is a place where, you know, I broke and fractured and screwed up more than I ever have. And, um, they kept me because the intent was to always innovate, push, and be sharp and be ahead, right? And I worked really, really hard. And so that's one of the same pledges that we have here at the agency is, I call them kids because I'm 50, but giving the kids a safe space and an opportunity to live in a protected environment and be able to have their ideas heard and flushed out. And, you know, this isn't a place where, you know, you know, my name is on the work, right? This is a place where the people who create the work is on the work. This is a place where when they see their work in the world, they want to come back tomorrow and work harder. Or this is the place where they see their work in the world and their parents finally figured out what they do for a living. Right. You know, that's, that's, I think that's the piece that's kind of like missing nowadays is just the confidence to try things and the confidence to overcome. And so, again, going back to Ellington and Count, the boys, I think the biggest piece for them is giving them the opportunity to try things, right? And not to be good at some things and to push forward. Their lives are great, but Some of their speed bumps are artificial, right? And for Ellington, some of them are very real because he's a serious basketball player, but undersized and we're not reclassing him. And so every day he's got to work harder. Every day he's got to go to the gym. Every day he's got to eat better. He's got to understand nutrition and recovery and all of these things at the age of 14. But it's all because I think basketball is teaching him something that You know, the life that I grew up in that he's not growing up in kind of gives him that static and that big pressure because it's going to give him the confidence to actually try things in the future. And so that's the big

thing about this next generation is that I just want them to not not live off of the mood board, be inspired by their mood boards that they create. Yeah. 00:34:23 Speaker 1: A large part of what you do at Team Epiphany and in your career is you create magnets. People want to be where Coltrane got something going on. And I think about there's this quote from Evan Williams, who's one of the creators of Twitter, where he said, you know, the worst thing to do in business is try to make people change behavior. If you want to get rich, you want to be successful, find what they want to do anyway and make it easier for them. 00:34:47 Speaker 2: To do that. 00:34:48 Speaker 1: And I bring this up because I think about your perspective. I'm interested in your perspective. So I have a social club called Toll House. I talked about it on the show before and I got the idea. I'm in Toledo, Ohio. 40 minutes south of Detroit. And I was in New York like 10 years ago or so, and some friends took me to a soul house, and I had never seen a soul. I had no idea that a different type of social club existed. I had only ever seen golf clubs and traditional city clubs. I had no idea that a club existed that you could wear jeans to, and it was beautiful, and people were in creative industries. 00:35:27 Speaker 2: And et cetera. 00:35:28 Speaker 1: So one of my lessons when I started Toll House... was that I couldn't bring New York to Toledo, that what I saw would not work. And Toledo is not New York. Number one, we've never seen a social house before. And so they were like, what is a social club? And so I wonder how you think about showing people something new. Like when you go do a campaign in the market that you're not in or that's just new to you, how do you think about meeting them where they are to pull them somewhere else? 00:35:59 Speaker 3: Yep. I mean, first, kudos. Second, I just remember the first Zoho House on 14th Street, and we were blown away. I'm probably one of the oldest members, and I just remember I was kind of blown away, I think, over the years. They've somewhat struggled with identity as they open up in other geos because they're this huge monolith that kind of gets plopped down, and they're not reflective of the places in which they are. That's right. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the biggest challenges for them, I would assume, is the same challenges most brands have, which are identifying the people who are helping you navigate culture and particularly that local market. And I would assume that, you know, if they wanted to open one in Toledo and, you know, they were there, you're the right guy. They would find you. Right. And nine times out of 10, they would find the imposter of you. to work with because that's the person that's not doing the work, but yet the person that's talking about the work that's most visible because they're amplifying the lies, the BS, and more importantly, the things that aren't and can't be credit checked. I always said that when people meet me and understand my story and how I got here, I wish that they can Credit check and Equifax, the guy I was calling the stunt double me that's to the left, right and in front of me, you know, and and understand the differences. Right. And be kind with that. Right. Like I'm I'm that guy. But. That's not the guy. He's the guy that kind of looks like the guy, but he got all the things, but it's not the guy. Right. Nine times out of 10, the brands hire the wrong person to be their navigator, to be their fixer, to be their key to culture. Right. And because most people think the pot of gold, you know. in those situations are people who are celebrity adjacent or the celebrity themselves i think you know being able to have instagram channels where you know people literally posts themselves in awkward photos with celebrities and can pontificate whatever bogus you know fictional relationship they have with this person and then when brands see that oh my gosh like this must be the person because they're celebrity adjacent and they're showing me that You know, the most influential people who are celebrity adjacent. Ain't taking pictures with their friends, ain't taking pictures with their business partners because those want to be their friends or their business partners to begin with. But the reality is we reward that and the rewards are are, I think. Catastrophic to the work and I think catastrophic to culture at the same time. And so I always said, like, you know. I'm 50, I don't know how much I have left in me, right? But I never really got the opportunity to work for a brand in a very big influential role. And I was always thinking like, wow, you know, when you when you get to the end, you write the book, you know, you go get the consulting job, you know, and all those things. But, you know, I would I would love to still be able to have the opportunity to work for a brand, to be able to help them architect who their board of influentials are. Right. Not just their board of directors, but who are the cultural decoders that you need, you know, who are timeless and accurate in terms of, you know, what their crystal ball says for the future and let's position that properly, right? That's the piece. That's the real travesty now. 00:39:40 Speaker 2: And final question for you. I have a million because I've been. 00:39:43 Speaker 3: Oh, man, I mean, you can cut it down. You can do two Fs. This is good. This is a good conversation. You know, I'm like. 00:39:49 Speaker 1: I would be respectful of your time and I don't want any of your people to come on camera and be like, yo, we got to get a bike. 00:39:54 Speaker 2: No, no. 00:39:55 Speaker 1: But like the, the, finally, like I think about, I have kids also, I have a 16 year old girl, 13 year old boy and 11 year old girl. And I think about the world that they're coming into. And as much as I want them to be individuals, the pressure that they're under to be what their friends are and

society tells them to be is enormous. 00:40:15 Speaker 2: And, I think about also, I heard, you. 00:40:18 Speaker 1: Know, somebody who's a, I don't want to say a critic, but you know, a social commentator on, you know, black culture and collabs that you talked about earlier and et cetera. And he was talking about, you know, like, I don't want to see like another t-shirt line or another, like, like we have so many. And I wonder how, how do you inspire people to step out? Like, cause I wonder if we, if we tend to think too narrowly and how, if we do, Because I think I saw your creed, like, you know, if it's been done already, we don't want to do it. You know, but how do you bring people along when, you know, your last hit, I want another hit like that. 00:40:56 Speaker 2: I want that. 00:40:58 Speaker 3: Yeah, man. Your last hit was your last hit, you know, like, you know, do you want to be that one hit wonder or you want to be hope, right? Like in order to be hope, you got to. meet Rick Rubin and you gotta, you know, get a, get an album from yay. And, you know, you gotta regret some things and, you know, at the end of the journey, you know, you have a career masterpiece, right? Like, I think what I would, I would really, you know, encourage, you know, is just the, the networking and the collaboration with other like-minded people in different genres and areas, right? Like, um, You know, you'd be surprised, you know, who is innovating in particular spaces. A brother I went to college with, his name is Don A. He owns a brand called La Fette Rose. You know, and I remember even in college, this was like something he was always interested in. Now he's got a really great wine, reputable in big spaces. And, you know, if... you're really looking to learn something right. Real time. I'm sure, you know, shoot him a note and he'll build with you and talk about how hard it was and what he had to learn and, you know, um, how he found funding. And I think like the problems now are that people ask all the wrong questions to the right people. Right. Um, like you want to be able to learn real time. What, how did you break into this space, you know? Um, and then how do you bring other people along with you? Right. Um, You know, I remember when we were doing programs like Heineken 100, which were like, I think one, you know, the program we probably did 40 different collaborations. But I remember who we were working with. You know, one of the one of the cats was my really besties games, Chris Gibbs. He he's the creative director of a store in L.A. called Union. I think it's one of the flyest people on the planet Earth, you know, and. And most people at that point in time would have looked at him as the guy with the small store in La Brea with kind of like cool Japanese brands. And to me, yeah, like he was leading then. But really what he was saying was, you know, I'm a I'm a cultural and a global explorer and traveler. Right. The articles and artifacts that I'm bringing back are actually interesting. these garments but what i'm also bringing back is the experience and the knowledge of you know japanese culture through the lens of a guy who used to be the creative director at supreme and so i can continue to make clothes right yeah the brand was paying me to do really impactful collabs and they were great but all along what we were really able to do is is is tap into that invisible superpower that Chris had, which was being able to identify what is actually cool and what's going to be cool. I think at the time, he connected us to neighborhood and was making just incredible introductions for us. And so while you were looking at the person that can make tangible products, the introductions and the relationships that he was able to bring to the table was not only influential for that brand at that particular time, it was inspirational, aspirational for me to be able to say like, hey, okay, I know I got to finish this deck, but let me get outside and go see something. It gets out of my comfort zone. And while you're working on things and speaking to people, you learn things that change your that changed your life. You know, I was just in the vineyard for the, um, over the summer and, you know, vineyard life is, you don't go out a lot. You bring people to your house, you know? Um, and, uh, one of the brothers that we had the opportunity to hang out with, his name is Troy Carter. Google him. You know what I mean? People know Troy, you know what I mean? And I'm sitting with Troy day after day, you know, eating barbecue, playing cards, just talking. And he gave me this one gem where it was like, you know, and he does, he's done very well for himself, you know, super smart cat. And, you know, and I'm sure the world that he runs into the people who still have more money than him, more things than him more, you know, and he turned to me and he was like, you know, man, you got kind of like the same thing I got, which isn't, you know, which is enough. And I didn't understand what he was talking about. And he was like, I was like, Enough. Let's think about it. We sat there, we talked about just the word enough for about a half an hour. And it was one of the most important things someone has ever told me. And it just recently happened this summer because we all chase things. And if you're chasing things, you'll never have enough of those things. And if you take a second and really take inventory on what you've got, most of us have enough. It may not be where we want to be, but you've got enough to be excited about, to be confident about. And I took inventory. My mom's healthy. I'm able to take care of her. I've got two kids. They go school where I want them to go. We drive what we want. We don't live crazy, you know, because we have enough. And so for me, running an agency, you know, and also selling an agency and getting an agency back, you know, and the reason why. we really wanted the agency back is because we never really needed to sell because this was enough. It was doing what it needed to do for me, my wife, and it keeps our close friends and community and people that we love together. And we get to work in a creative space and we get to be able to get paid to work for brands. And more importantly, it's the union and the energy that we have here. And so as we end, I think just sharing that gem of You are enough. And most of us got enough. Right. May not be where we want to get to, but you got enough to get till tomorrow and tomorrow you got enough to get to the end of the week. And I really am living life by that. And so the joys that I have of having enough, you know, allows me to smile, even though, you know, agency life is like one time you smile and the next time you're crying twice, you know, but I got enough, you know, and I'm very thankful for the life that I have. 00:46:58 Speaker 2: Man, Coltrane Curtis. 00:47:01 Speaker 3: Such a pleasure, man. 00:47:02 Speaker 2: Such a pleasure. 00:47:04 Speaker 3: No, it's great. I got to come see you now. You know, I'm in Ohio a lot, you know, not at P & G, but my boy Dave lives there. 00:47:10 Speaker 1: And so we're... Hey, whenever you're around, I'm closest to Detroit, but Columbus is right down. 00:47:16 Speaker 2: Cleveland is right down. 00:47:18 Speaker 3: I'll be flying to Columbus when we go see Dave and... And in between, I love detour. 00:47:24 Speaker 2: You probably drive through here then. 00:47:28 Speaker 3: I don't believe it's a drive-thru space. Clearly, there's some things that I should come see. Clearly. 00:47:33 Speaker 2: Whenever you're ready, the door is open. 00:47:35 Speaker 3: You got the real Soho house. That's what I'm hearing. 00:47:38 Speaker 2: That's a fact. It's such a pleasure to talk to you, man. One day we'll do this in person. 00:47:42 Speaker 3: I'm about that. I'm about that life. So keep me, keep me to that. 00:47:46 Speaker 2: I love it. Thank you, Becky. 00:47:48 Speaker 3: Thank you. No, a hundred percent. Thank you for your time.