התמלול המלא של Can outsiders understand divided societies? With Dr Michaël Green

about himself. 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:21.439 But there are also kinds of travel writing that are not really ego-documental in any way because it's only a description of the city of the place that the traveler visited. 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:24.720 Yeah, traveler's notes and yeah, yeah, no, completely. 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.680 And what sort of what sort of evidence would you say that that is in terms of what's created there? 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:58.079 Because obviously we're saying that I I quite like Dominic the Capra in intellectual history, and he sometimes says that actually accounts of individuals in the autobiographical sense are almost the least convincing as a form of evidence because people have this sort of retrospective look at their life and sort of try to make everything cohesive, particularly when it comes to someone like Rousseau or someone's like they go back and kind of want to pin everything together and map it out in a very cohesive, coherent way and make it interesting. 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:05.040 What sort of evidence would you say it is in terms of an ego document, in terms of its utility and purpose? 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:10.160 I think that this is a very typical criticism that comes from political historians. 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:18.160 And I encountered on one of the conferences that I attended a very interesting question from a person in the crowd. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.120 You are doing all this ego documental research. 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:23.680 It was a conference dedicated to ego documents. 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.279 So just the context. 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.879 You're doing all this ego documental research, but why? 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.879 They don't contain any facts. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:35.040 Why would you even bother reading someone's diary or someone's letter? 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.360 It it's it's useless. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:47.439 And then I remembered my PhD supervisor who was not PhD, sorry, master supervisors, is Miriam Yardeni, who was a positivist historian. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.839 So she was doing close reading of the text without getting involved in theoretical frameworks. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:07:01.279 And she always said that by reading the source, and it doesn't really matter what it's important, what kind of questions are you asking. 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:17.839 So when you're reading an ego document, you can of course ask yourself what was the political view of someone that wrote this text, but you can also ask yourself what were the conditions in which that person lived, or how truthful is the account that the person gives? 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:19.839 What would be that person's reasons? 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.680 What was his or her environment? 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:26.800 Usually it was his environment, much rarer it was her environment. 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.879 But eco-documents can give us a lot of information about everything that pertains to daily life. 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.439 It's actually almost a unique source. 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:51.920 Of course, you can have references to daily life in all kinds of legislation, in police reports, but in ecodocuments, people describe how they lived, at times how they felt, how they thought about things, what they liked and what they didn't. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:58.959 At times they simply just describe what they see on the street, and you still see that perception of the person. 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:14.160 Of course, if it's a perception of that person and not a copied version of something, because we also see those things uh happening that people just copy into their diaries, bits and pieces from printed books or other manuscripts. 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:17.439 So I think this is the uniqueness of ego documents. 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:31.360 For years I have been studying privacy, early modern privacy, and ego documents for me are the best uh sources to extract what how people felt about their privacy. 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:33.039 How did they see that privacy? 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.960 Because they never write, I felt private, I was in private. 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:43.200 You can get it from the context, and this context can only appear in the ego documents. 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:52.879 That's very interesting, and I guess even elements of fabrication and that sort of thing reveal to us something about the psychology of a person that you're investigating as well. 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:57.360 So even though that person might have criticized it and said, Oh, but where are the facts, where are the truths? 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:09.919 Well, actually, some of the elements surely of where they're clearly fabricating or making something kind of a little bit more glamorous than it may seem, or whatever, also reveal to us something about the about the person in particular. 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.279 Uh Jack, I don't know if you we would you have any comments on ego documents. 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:21.279 I know we've obviously discussed the confessions before, whether it be Augustine or you know, would you uh do you have any kind of relationship to ego documents? 00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:32.240 Well, I'm actually working through one of the most prolific ego documents, uh which is the essays of Michel de Montaigne, which is not so far behind your guy Rahan, I I I believe. 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:34.559 I mean hundreds, fifty years. 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:36.240 Okay, so fair enough. 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:36.480 Okay. 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:38.559 A little further. 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:45.200 I I had him in my head more of the the 17th century guy, but so maybe it's a bit later in that going into the 18th century. 00:09:45.360 --> 00:10:04.720 So but in in those essays you're dealing with uh a writer who's very playful about how he presents himself and is very self-conscious, and and and even indeed raising

this question of whether I actually am the person who knows myself best, or actually do those outside me know me best. 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:11.600 And this is in in some sense a prelude to our question of whether those who are outside political systems know them best or not. 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:16.639 So you see a symmetry already in the case of the person writing about himself. 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:26.559 I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, Michael, whether whether we do know ourselves, and if that comes into the the the validity of ego documents as a historical source. 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:32.720 I think that uh we you raised a very interesting point here about self-reflection in ego documents. 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:55.360 And Montaigne and even Rousseau are an exception for that particular time, because usually what we see in early ego documents, and early ego documents I mean those that have begun with Christian humanism reaching England and then France and the Netherlands, Germany. 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:02.799 We see that people start writing about themselves, but first of all, about uh their daily life. 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:07.600 It's later that they start actually reflecting on their life in writing. 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:24.080 We have some examples in France, and then there is a book by a I think he's Romanian author that was published a few years ago in Brill series that I'm editing, but back then I wasn't, uh called the Early Modern French Autobiography. 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:31.919 I don't remember the name, unfortunately, but he's writing very interestingly interestingly about the development of the memoir genre. 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:45.200 And the very first memoirs appear indeed in the second half of the 16th century, but it's a very, very small number of people, and those memoirs still have uh this political component in them. 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:51.440 So if you want to get more into the private understanding, then it takes more and more time. 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:58.320 And we also see difference between the development of those uh egodocuments between uh different countries. 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:10.720 And recently I had to write a chapter for a book on ego documents and privacy, and I did some sort of survey between different countries when they start writing in a private way about themselves. 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:26.720 So there is quite a big difference between England, that was one of the first, uh, and uh the Netherlands that I think was second, and then for example, Denmark, Denmark, Norway, which was one country during part of the early modern period, which was much later, or Poland. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:37.840 At the moment, with some exceptions, people started really writing about themselves with reflection on themselves, towards the mid-18th century. 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:58.240 So we've got that in terms of yeah, in terms of setting out this idea of the ego document, and yeah,

that was a nice point from you, Jack, in terms of in terms of wanting I think what I'd really like to explore next is this idea of what makes an outsider. 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:06.240 And we've discussed the kind of relationship to my research and and how I sort of interact with Michael's work in terms of Rapin. 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:14.639 So Rapin brings together this idea of a Huguenot exile and involvement in powerful political and social networks. 00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:22.960 In what respect, Michael, would you call him in in and what you've looked at in terms of the Grand Tour, would you call him an outsider? 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.000 And in what respect had he become an insider? 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.919 You mean outsider to the English society? 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:36.320 To its English society and the networks there, and how but but then how far he'd be become an insider. 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:40.639 I know it's a complicated story with him, it's not it's not an easy one to map. 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:41.600 I found that. 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:44.720 I think this is a very interesting question. 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.440 Maybe I should start by introducing who he was. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:48.000 Yes. 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:53.039 So let us maybe first uh start by introducing uh who Paul Rapantwara was. 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.360 So he was born in 1961. 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.759 It's so mid-17th century. 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:12.799 Uh he studied at uh Protestant Huguenot University, uh Huguenot Huguenot Academy in France, and uh eventually he was drafted into the army. 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:22.480 Uh maybe I should I'm cutting the story short, but well, he first ran from France to the Netherlands because of religious persecution. 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:29.039 There's a whole story about him being uh bribed by Louis XIV to stay, but it didn't work. 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:41.279 And eventually he was drafted into the army that went together with William III, marched towards Britain and he participated in the Glorious Revolution. 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:51.440 At one point, he was asked by his commander on some reflections related to some historical topic. 00:14:51.759 --> 00:15:12.799 The word of him got out, and the Earl of Portland, Hans William Benting, who was one of the closest friends of William III, was looking at the time for his for a tutor for his son, who was called William William Benting, or as we know him as Viscount Woodstock at the time. 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.080 And Rapan eventually became his tutor. 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:39.200 So if you think about his past, he was born in France, he was raised in France, he was educated in France, he had a brief stay in the Netherlands where he didn't really find himself, and then he was living his life in mostly in England, he was traveling back and forth with the son between England and The Hague, where the Benting family had uh a house. 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.840 And your question, did you know the society? 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:53.919 And that's the interesting part because, in my opinion, he had very little understanding, at least in the beginning, of the society, either in the Netherlands or in England, and a lot of his knowledge probably came from books. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:00.879 Yeah, yeah, and much less much less from observation of what was going on around him. 00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:07.840 But he stayed tutor of a Benting son for about 10 years, which is quite a long period. 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:13.600 Benting being affiliated with William the Third was, of course, bringing all the news home. 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:22.240 So I think that he had quite interesting first-hand information on what was going on in the parliament and in the kingdom at the time. 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:45.919 So he did have a perspective of an outsider, and I think the best person to answer how did he cross the line into the understanding of the English political system would be actually Miriam Francina, uh a friend of mine and a colleague at some point who wrote her dissertation about Rapin's work on the English politics. 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:50.159 So it is a very interesting question, and to be honest, I don't know. 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:58.240 And I must maybe say here that Huguenot refugees came from France all over Europe, all over Protestant Europe. 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:07.519 A lot of them ended up in the Netherlands, but some went to Germany, some to England, to Ireland, and not all of them got embedded very well. 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:19.200 There is the story of Pierre Bell, a very famous Huguenot philosopher who lived in Rotterdam, and for his entire life in the Netherlands, he never learned Dutch. 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.000 Well, the whole time. 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:27.759 So that means that many people were simply not interested in integrating. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:51.279 And I guess uh you you know the reason why it was not really important for them to learn the Dutch language because the lead spoke French, the services in uh Walloon churches, so churches that were established by refugees from Flanders and Wallon in the 16th century, the services were held in French, so they had worship places. 00:17:51.519 --> 00:18:02.000 In England the situation was slightly different because they were at some point you can also forced to uh switch to English, switch their services to English. 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:10.640 So that could be one of the reasons that uh English refugees were well, French refugees in England would be more keen to learn the local language. 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.839 That for me that is an open question. 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:15.519 Yeah, that's very true. 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:16.640 I think it's interesting. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:23.359 And yeah, I mean this description of an outsider is yeah, an interesting one in terms of in terms of repant.

00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.920 I don't know, Jack, do you have a question in terms of this kind of outsider status? 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:34.880 Maybe just maybe even just like a concrete, more concrete question rather than a philosophical one. 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:36.559 Maybe it's philosophical. 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:42.799 What are the kind of obstacles one encounters in in this time in trying to integrate? 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:49.839 You know, language is one that we've mentioned, but I mean we have a a modern sense that a lot of our states are more or less the same. 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:51.279 We have very similar institutions. 00:18:51.440 --> 00:19:03.680 Is that the same at this time, or or or uh could Rapan expect some rather significant differences in how uh how the English society is operating compared to what we just experienced? 00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:11.039 That's actually a great question, and definitely it was not an easy test to integrate. 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.839 And it's a big question if anyone ever really integrated. 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:17.839 It's also a question about nowadays. 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:33.440 As an immigrant myself, I don't know if I'm integrated well in Poland or if I was integrated well in any of the countries that I was living in, and I lived in quite a few in the past uh 15 years, uh, ever since I started doing my PhD. 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:35.599 You've been on a grand tour of your own. 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.880 I've been on a ground ground tour, I would say. 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:46.079 But it is something that I think people looked at in a different way than we looked now. 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:51.440 So I don't think that they were trying to become really integrated. 00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:02.960 Because a Yugino refugee coming to well anywhere uh would bring with himself a baggage that would be uh important for the place that he came to. 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:18.160 And I'm speaking about refugees, well, intellectual ones, because when you're a peasant or a laborer, you you have your skills, you're bringing them to a new country, then you're starting working for someone and you're doing your work. 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:33.759 I don't know if you're being paid the same as a local employer or not, but roughly at some point you become more or less integrated with your own family and some friends at the place that you live, your church, that's okay. 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:42.960 The problem is for those who are more educated, because then they bring their own skills on a higher level, and those skills are required by the society. 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:46.160 So, why Rapan was hired as a tutor? 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.359 Why would Benson want him to even teach him, to even teach his son? 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.480 Couldn't he find a nice Englishman to teach him? 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:56.319 Of course he could. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:03.519 Yeah, and and yeah, because Rapan

would be barred from any university participation in England at that time. 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:13.039 He wouldn't be able to go and take part freely within that was a question that I was asked at that research day, Jack, that you saw in terms of like, did he have any links with universities? 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:21.680 Well, even even Protestant dissidents were not allowed really to in terms of in England to participate in the university system. 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:38.480 Well, uh, you know, Edward VI had several tutors, and that they were all connected to big universities, uh, to Oxford, and and so a century before that, it was a component to hire actually your own. 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:59.599 In the 17th century and early 18th century, when Rapin was functioning, but also Jean Roon, whom I wrote my dissertation and several others, and the case was different, and that was because the French court had some sort of great appeal to European monarchs, and they were trying to mimic the French. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:05.279 Ways, well, not entirely, but they needed to know French for the sake of culture. 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.400 Because if you want to be civilized and polite, then you would need to know French. 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.279 You would also need to know the French manners. 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:18.480 And the French manners, theoretically, you can best learn from a French tutor. 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:26.720 And it's quite funny because Rapin probably had very little idea about French court manners because he was not a courtier. 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:32.240 He had an uncle who was advisor to Louis XIV Pellisson. 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:37.359 But I don't think that Rapin himself was very well aware of all the etiquette. 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:39.920 Still, he had some idea about it. 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:42.559 And I assume that was the second reason. 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:50.400 So first would be the language, second would be the court manners or the French manners, and the third reason would be the religion. 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:57.279 Because he was a Protestant, and of course he would not hire a Catholic, because theoretically he could also hire a Catholic Frenchman. 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:00.240 But not for a Protestant family. 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:19.839 So it was the combination of the skills that they offered that made Huguenots to be appealing to local nobility, not only in England, but also in the Netherlands, partially in Germany and partially in all well in Russia, for example, that would be important, although the religious question was indifferent. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:26.319 So I guess that would be one of the reasons why they would not need to integrate. 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.559 Because they were important as those foreigners for them. 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.799 Yet we see that second generation, at least in the Netherlands, we see them integrating through marriage. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:47.519 So second generation often marries into local community, usually French-speaking local community, or elite. 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.799 Again, I'm speaking about people who are educated. 00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:00.079 And the third generation is more or less completely emancipated and embedded in the local society, though many preserve French names. 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.240 In England, that's actually not the case. 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.960 In England, the names often are translated. 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:20.160 And I'm part of the Huguenot Society of Great Britain and Ireland, and we have a lot of members who have English names, but actually we know their family tree, and we know that at some point the names were translated from French into English. 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:21.920 That's really interesting. 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:28.480 Yeah, I've had a bit of correspondence with the Huguenot Society, and yeah, they've been very, very helpful along my path thus far. 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:37.039 But looking at these two characters that we've discussed, I'd be interested to explore them a little further in terms of the way that you approach them, Rapan and Woodstock. 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:48.640 So these two selves in letters, you've suggested that Rapan and Woodstock, at least from what I understand, are examples of people constructing themselves through their letters. 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.319 Could you take us through maybe one example from each? 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.319 Who are they trying to be in the eyes of the Rositian? 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:04.400 I think that we can see through this correspondence of the Grand Tour, which took place between 1701 and 1703. 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.039 Maybe one word about the correspondence itself. 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:13.519 So they're only letters written by Woodstock and by Rapan to the father, to the Earl of Portland. 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:20.559 The letters of the father are not preserved, so we can only guess what he was writing to them from the responses. 00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:24.480 No, no, from what I took away from it, no more money for Europe. 00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:26.640 Exactly. 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:42.799 And well, there is, as I explained earlier, there is this very nicely bound volume which is preserved in the British Library, where all the nice letters are preserved, and all the nasty ones are omitted completely, and you can find them in original uh letters kept in Nottingham. 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:54.000 So at first, Rapan wrote to Portland a very nice outline of what he proposes for the Grand Tour, and he presents himself really as a scholar. 00:25:54.240 --> 00:26:00.880 And in a way, Rapan was a scholar, even though he was not really writing much at the time. 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:04.880 He was corresponding with intellectuals in The Hague. 00:26:04.960 --> 00:26:07.920 So, for example, with Jean Rue, but also with others. 00:26:08.160 -->

00:26:14.480 He had scholarly contacts, and he was presenting himself as someone with a lot of knowledge. 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.920 So he proposed to go to Scandinavia and then to France and then to Bohemia and then to Switzerland, and he reasoned why those places are important. 00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:39.680 And then the Grand Tour starts, and he writes letters back to the father telling him about the experiences of Woodstock as this responsible adult figure. 00:26:40.880 --> 00:27:11.599 But as the time goes by, the tensions start to grow because Rapan realizes that he is actually not going to get any additional money, that the money for the tour, the grand tour is limited, that at some point the father wants to send his son into the army because the War of Spanish succession started in the middle of that grand tour, and everyone was saying to Woodstock that he must go to the army, and Woodstock said no, thanks. 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:13.599 Rapan said that he's too old. 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:21.279 He wrote to Woodstock that to Portland that he's too old to join the army with his pupil, and he's definitely not going to do that. 00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.599 And he wrote it explicitly that I'm not going to join the army. 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.319 You should let your son be. 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.960 He doesn't need a tutor, maybe an adult friend to keep him company. 00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:44.319 And I think this was quite a shift because from this very obedient and very respectful uh tutor, suddenly he became a very opinionated and self-standing person. 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:46.079 So he still wrote politely. 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:48.640 It's quite funny, isn't it? 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.559 Because he'd said quite near the start that that's what he wanted to be. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.559 I want to be to him a friend, uh brother, uh yeah, yeah. 00:27:57.599 --> 00:27:58.160 Exactly. 00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:10.880 And at some point the relationship between Rapan and Woodstock deteriorated because Woodstock saw him, even though they knew each other for almost 10 years at the time, he started seeing him as a spy. 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:27.599 Because he, of course, had to report the father on his progress, and he wrote that Woodstock was not interested in anything scholarly, that he was interested in women and in parties, and that's about it. 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:41.200 And it's quite interesting because in the beginning there was a discussion how the grand tour should be conducted, and Rapan wrote that he would keep him away from Englishmen because of them being debauchiers, yeah. 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:52.640 So setting a bad example, but this is quite funny because every single Grand Tour correspondence that I read mentioned that this the pupil should be kept away from his own kind. 00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.319 So every your own kind is bad influence. 00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:09.759 And if you go, if you turn to Woodstock and his way of self-representation, it's also quite interesting because it all starts with him being a super obedient son and uh very respectful. 00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:12.559 And uh, yes, yes, father, yes, father. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:21.359 Of course, I'm gonna go to the army until he says no, I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not uh willing to participate in anything like that. 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:32.160 And you can feel the tension building, and this is those letters are absent from the from the copy in the British Library. 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:48.240 I wonder, Jack, having read been focusing on Montaigne yourself recently, if you might have any questions around, say, like presentation in this in terms of like how each person's trying to present themselves in their correspondence or anything around those lines. 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:58.640 It sounds quite yeah, I'm I'm quite surprised actually to hear sort of how much of the with the dynamic of this sort of irresponsibility on the part of the the the pupil here. 00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.079 And then uh yeah, you have rap Rapan is his tutor, right? 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.519 I'm following correctly. 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:16.160 And uh Rapan is quite yeah, how how do you how do you read him in these letters as being quite trying to mediate between the the pupil and his father or or or assuming the role of the father? 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.039 Do you have a particular view on that? 00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:58.240 Well, I don't think that he was trying to be the or take the role of the father, but he was definitely trying to mediate between the father and the son, and when he realized that it doesn't go well, there's no understanding on the benting side of the real situation on the ground because they were writing in the midst of war in Europe, constantly being threatened by one of the armies being nearby and being taken hostage or prisoners of war by, for example, the Spanish army that would be, of course, against the English one. 00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:06.880 They had to cancel a lot of plans because of that, and he understands that the father doesn't really see the picture, and he was really frustrated. 00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.359 And in the middle of that grand tour, William III died. 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:27.519 And when he died, then Rapan started worrying that he will not get any money because he was promised a pension from the king, and then the king died, and he's like, What's gonna happen to my money? 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:30.319 And the money doesn't really come. 00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:42.960 And at the time, Rapan is having a wife, well, they just got married, not long before he left, and uh a child, and he's worried about very practical things. 00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.880 How am I gonna feed them? 00:31:45.359 --> 00:32:01.279 And then he writes to Portland a story, well, a very long letter in which he says that he invested much time and effort into becoming a tutor

and being a good tutor for his pupil, but in fact, he doesn't get any benefit from it. 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:17.680 Because being a tutor meant that at some point you become a part of that family as an advisor, as you're being being given a role within that family, but that for some reason didn't happen for a pan, and he feels very frustrated. 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:35.519 And I think that he presents himself as a person that has ruined his life and asks for some sort of uh salvation, but he asks asks it at the wrong place because Woodstock sorry, Portland uh doesn't really give him any solution. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:46.480 And once Rapan quits, he quits the Grand Tour in the middle, he just writes that okay, I have not got any race, I'm not going to continue this, I'm leaving. 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:54.240 And he returns back to Enland and then he goes back to the Netherlands and eventually ends up in a German vessel. 00:32:55.279 --> 00:33:01.599 And we see that there is almost no contact, or there is no contact between him and the family. 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.720 The only time that I see that uh the contact comes back is at much, much later stage. 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:13.440 Very brief one, a few letters that he exchanged with uh Woodstock, and that's it. 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:15.440 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.240 That's interesting. 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:27.839 And then he's in Wessel, and that's where sort of copies of the histoire start going between The Hague and Wessel and when they're being sort of slowly edited and published, from what I understand, in terms of moving to and from. 00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:32.960 Really interesting, and a great and he's a great example of of what we're discussing here in terms of belonging. 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.440 But but who else can tell us about belonging? 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:41.519 You've you've mentioned, Michael, examples involving merchants, Jews, noblemans, princes. 00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:47.200 Which would most usefully challenge what we've just said, maybe about Rapan and Woodstock? 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:56.400 Could you introduce one person and the situation in which they were writing in terms of these ideas of belonging and how you've approached that in your work? 00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:03.039 And I don't know how long you have, Jack, so obviously feel free to pop off when you need to, because I know you need to catch your fly. 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:11.519 Maybe very briefly I will just mention one other you can know, the one that actually I made my dissertation about, uh Jean Roux. 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:20.000 Yeah, he's a completely different example from uh Rapin because, unlike Rapin, he actually did integrate extremely well. 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:51.599 Uh he did learn, well, Rapin learned English, Jean-Rue learned Dutch, and he became first he came there as a tutor to Van Ayers and Van Somelsdijk's family in The Hague, and then he was appointed as translator of the States General, which was some sort of early modern parliament in the Netherlands, uh legislative body, and it was the highest role available for a foreigner to get within the United Provinces of the Netherlands at the time. 00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.239 So he managed to reach like the real top. 00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:04.159 It didn't give him much uh money, but it got him well connected to everyone in the top of the top of the Dutch Republic. 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:12.000 He became a very important person not only in the State General but also in the local Huguenot community. 00:35:12.079 --> 00:35:18.400 Uh, in The Hague where he lived, they formed a scholarly circle of which Rapan was a part. 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:34.639 He also participated in communication between the pastors of the Reformed churches, of the French language reformed churches, and all kinds of other discussions that were ongoing in the Netherlands. 00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:41.280 And he called the Netherlands, he wrote about it in his memoirs, as his second motherland. 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:52.239 He wrote with appreciation that this was his land of milk and honey, and this was his promised land where he felt safe and secure. 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:58.960 I don't think that Rapan has ever reflected on his situation in England or in Germany, for that sake, or in the Netherlands. 00:35:59.199 --> 00:36:02.880 But it only shows that for him it was not that important. 00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:06.400 Then maybe I can bring an example of Jews. 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.920 Again, I researched documents written by Dutch Jews. 00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:11.360 Interesting place. 00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:32.559 And one of them, one of those sources is the very famous De Pinto manuscript, which depicts the history of a De Pinto family being kicked out of Spain in 1492, then going to Portugal, and eventually reaching Antwerp and from Antwerp, going to first Rotterdam and then to Amsterdam. 00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:52.000 And and the terms that he was using about his own flight, so not the family story, but his own flight from Antwerp to Rotterdam and from Rotterdam to Amsterdam, we can see the change of tone because he was speaking about buildings. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:57.280 So we stayed in that in that house, we stayed in that in that room. 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:06.400 And when he finally receives his own house, he uses the terms of home towards it. 00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:10.719 So we see change in terminology and shift in tone. 00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:21.440 There's another quite interesting example, uh, much later example, already written in the early 19th century, of User, Moses User. 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:33.440 And he speaks about well, he tells his story to his grandchildren, and in that story he reflects about his position in the Dutch society. 00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:38.239 And you can also feel that he's actually part of that society. 00:37:38.400 -->

00:37:39.440 Well, he is a Jew. 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:58.800 He's belonging, he's writing from a point of view of a Jew who is, of course, different, has different rights at the time than an average Protestant Dutchman, even though it did change to some extent in early 19th century after the Batavian Revolution. 00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.920 Does he write? 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:06.239 Can you actively feel a sense of exclusion, or is it is it a sort of somewhere in between? 00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.519 He doesn't really write about uh exclusion. 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:20.320 Um I think that on the contrary, you could uh say that he is writing as part of that society, but he knows he knows his place in that. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:38.880 So uh Moses Solomon Aser was uh well he was uh also politically active in the Netherlands, so he himself was part of certain political changes, and he was also trying to work for the emancipation of the Jews in the Dutch Republic. 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:49.840 So he was fighting for that belonging, which I think is quite interesting, and again, this personal perspective of what he thought about it, you can only see from his own memoirs. 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:55.599 Because if you read his political statements, it's not enough to see his perspective. 00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:57.440 Very interesting. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:07.119 I don't know, Jack, whether you have a I don't as I say, I don't know how long you have, but if you do have any questions on this idea of belonging in in some of these examples that Michael's bringing up. 00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:20.880 Yeah, it's interesting how in these examples you have what may be perceived to be conflicts of interest in in terms of different parts of your identity, but but a factor that seems to bring these things together is gratitude. 00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:34.000 So in the Jewish context, obviously uh fleeing now the persecutions in uh Spain and and Portugal uh can come to the Netherlands and uh build a home there and really desire to make this their their permanent home. 00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:47.360 And I think Rapan is lacking in that more existential dimension, and perhaps that on the one hand, yeah, leaves him a little more ambivalent with respect to actually integrating to into an English identity. 00:39:47.599 --> 00:40:04.880 But it yeah, I still yeah, I wonder what that means for how how we would even like receive his his his writing, his perspective on England, whether we could somehow trust him more for his impartiality or less because of his lack of a uh a devotion. 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.280 I think that this is a very interesting question. 00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:25.039 And uh, me being Jewish, I was asked to teach quite often courses on Jewish history, even though I'm not well now I'm much more involved in that, but in the beginning I was never not really uh dealing with that uh topic much. 00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:31.039 And I thought that I'm not the best to do that because of this personal attachment to the topic. 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:44.159 And I also thought that it's much easier for me to write about topics that don't relate to Jews because I'm not developing particular sympathy towards any of my uh subjects or objects of research. 00:40:44.400 --> 00:41:02.480 So I've seen that in this case, if we talk about Rapin, his view on English politics, we need to take into account on the one hand his presumed impartiality, but on the other hand, we should also keep in mind that French people had a very specific view of England. 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:14.559 And Rapin being a Protestant who was kicked out of France or forced to flee during the revocation of the Edict of Nantes, had particular resentment of France. 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:19.840 So all those things need to be taken into account when assessing his position. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:24.800 And if you speak about the Pinto, maybe for just one second, uh to go back to him. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:33.920 So he f he himself fled from Antwerp where he was living as a Christian because Jews were forced to convert and they converted. 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:49.840 His family converted in I don't remember now if it was in Spain or in Portugal, uh, but they lived in Antwerp as Christians, and they feared persecution from the Catholic Church in Antwerp, and that's why they fled. 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.320 So they were fearing that the Inquisition is coming for them. 00:41:52.400 --> 00:42:04.320 They fled to the Netherlands, where they decided to join the Jewish community there again, and they had to go through circumcision, which is an adult age, a very unpleasant procedure. 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.599 He even writes about it in his uh in his text. 00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:21.199 He had to learn to be Jew from scratch because they observed some things, but it was not enough to be really Jewish by the standards of the Dutch Jews. 00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:22.320 Yeah. 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:23.920 That's very interesting. 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:25.360 I thought that is fascinating. 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:45.199 And and I mean, I think just to return it in terms of some some final discussion, I I just I just wonder what you might think about these kind of ideas of political division, because it's you know my my area of research, asking how faction and party came to be understood as a persistent feature of political life. 00:42:45.440 --> 00:43:00.159 I was just wondering whether you would have any thoughts, just generally, on what can personal letters contribute to that question about division, about what maybe Rapan is observing, that a published argument like his dissertation cannot. 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:14.400 Do you see anything in those kind of more personal dialogues that maybe could reveal something about approaches to division, about the polity, about the body politic that maybe go beyond what uh what a political dialogue in itself

might? 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:22.719 Huh, it is a difficult question because to be honest, I have never read uh his correspondence from political perspective. 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:30.559 And uh, in this case, you need to keep in mind that the Grand Tour letters are focused on war and on the Grantur itself. 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:36.719 So they report news to the well, they report news home. 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:42.159 And as I recently wrote in another article, I suspect that they were actually used as spies. 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:55.199 But this entire correspondence, in addition to all those personal things that they were writing, I was used to pass information on to the father who would pass it afterwards to the king himself. 00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.760 Yeah, yeah, it does not tell us anything about his view of the. 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.119 political system. 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:19.599 But I think that if you read between the lines of his complaints to the to Portland about his own situation, then you can see criticism of this system in which he is entirely dependent on the mercy of the ruler, of the king. 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.320 Because without this pension he is penniless. 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:28.079 He has no money, he has no life and doesn't really know from what to exist. 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:38.719 Whether you can relate it to his view on the Tories and the Whigs, I think that's up to you to decide as someone who is specializing more on that subject. 00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:46.239 I think that you can find a lot of interesting information in Ingo documents, but of course you cannot find everything. 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.639 So it all depends on specific sources and specific authors. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:45:13.199 In Rapan's case I think that you by taking into account his personal situation and his will to get that pension from maybe the well after William III was Queen Anne so if he was trying to get pension from the Queen then maybe he would write something more favorable. 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:37.280 Yeah yeah yeah it seems I cannot answer that button I think it certainly at least what I've discussed before in a couple of the talks that I've done on on my research I think it certainly it certainly makes him ready to be critical of patronage because he calls the Duke of Buckingham the root of all ills in England in the dissertation. 00:45:37.440 --> 00:46:18.480 So this idea of a sort of a patronized assistant of the favourite of James I and sixth being the root of all ills it kind of in my head I was kind of like his his irritation with the whole process of going through this patronage maybe set him on the course of being really ante but the one one other question if you just obliged me which I wondered about and this could be my own ignorance but what must it have been like for him there's a there's a line in of all things Indiana Jones this idea of being a pilgrim in an unholy land this idea of going on a

grand tour through these places which he's he's either fled from France or he's going through Europe. 00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:49.920 How how were people doing these grand tours received in in countries where you were coming from a you know a religiously very different environment in England or in the Netherlands going into various other countries how how how did that dynamic play were you were you were you looked even if you were doing the grand tour were you looked at with suspicion or with sort of I I don't know if you have many thoughts on that but I I've been interested in it as I've been unpacking these kind of things in my work I think it depends what was your part in the grand tour. 00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:54.079 So if you were the tutor I don't think that anyone mind you at all. 00:46:54.320 --> 00:47:25.440 Yeah because you didn't matter the only person who mattered on that grand tour was the person who did that grand tour and that was in this case it was Woodstock who was the heir of the Benton family and he was sent on that grand tour with several very specific purposes to practice languages to get to know the customs of a different lens and most importantly to present himself as the heir to the family. 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:32.880 So they would know well this is the son of and he is the next one in line with whom we have to do business. 00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:42.000 Being of very high societal position he was Woodstock was received very well. 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:53.679 And he describes and that's quite interesting because contrary to some Grand Tour correspondents he actually describes in details how he was received and by whom. 00:47:53.920 --> 00:48:00.960 And then they have he and Rapan both have uh this I call it their slang because in fact it is kind of a slang. 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:14.880 So they write about receiving honors and those honors I couldn't understand for a long time what they meant and at some point actually write an honor would be that someone is inviting you for dinner. 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:20.880 So you are being invited for dinner that's that means that you are receiving an honor. 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:46.719 When he visited Maximilian of Bavaria he actually was invited with with him to travel on a hunt and then to stay in the same in the same castle with with Maximilian and he said that they couldn't find the bed to put in the room of of the king because otherwise they would have stayed in his room so this shows you this kind of acceptance and privilege. 00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:55.199 Yeah but Rapan was not invited of course to stay stay in the same room I don't know if he was invited even to participate in the hunt. 00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:43.039 I think not but at the same time someone like Rapan was still having unofficial conversations because he also had his second mission besides overseeing and the educational progress and the safety he was also making contacts with lower uh nobles so with all those emissaries and envoys yeah the back room backroom networking that he was doing yeah yeah so it was not about being accepted at all it was I think it could be applicable nowadays as when you're going for I don't know research exchange as a PhD student you don't accept you don't expect to be accepted anywhere but you are expected to be treated with dignity and that's I think what they were expecting to yeah respected not accepted. 00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:57.280 Well no that's very interesting and a nice nice way to close so thank you Michael for joining us and for bringing these lives and letters into the conversation we began by asking whether an outsider can understand a divided political culture better than those inside it. 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:12.880 The examples have given us ways to ask a more precise question what does a person's position enable them to see and how does the situation in which they write shape what they tell us so yeah thank you to everyone listening and thank you Michael for joining us on Beyond the Text. 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:18.079 Thank you both for having me thank you Michael we'll see you again