התמלול המלא של Collateral Consequences

34 00:02:09,402 --> 00:02:13,112 traumatic events in a lifetime: being left by my biological 35 00:02:13,175 --> 00:02:16,444 mother, being raised by another... I want to kind of 36 00:02:16,507 --> 00:02:20,468 jump forward from there into how complex trauma has impacted my 37 00:02:20,531 --> 00:02:24,303 life. At eight years old, I started getting locked up. I was 38 00:02:24,366 --> 00:02:28,453 arrested, first in Corvettes for shoplifting at eight. From eight 39 00:02:28,516 --> 00:02:31,848 years old, throughout my juvenile lifetime, I've been 40 00:02:31,911 --> 00:02:35,432 impacted with the criminal justice system multiple times 41 00:02:35,495 --> 00:02:39,393 and the juvenile offenses. At 21... and also using substances. 42 00:02:39,456 --> 00:02:43,417 The substance abuse progressed by age 21, and I started using a 43 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,938 substance known as crack cocaine. Crack cocaine took me 44 00:02:47,001 --> 00:02:50,207 to another level of mental health disparities, life 45 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:53,665 disparities, economic disparities, just even existence 46 00:02:53,728 --> 00:02:57,626 disparities. I started getting locked up and doing time at 21. 47 00:02:57,689 --> 00:03:01,713 That was something that I never understood. Couldn't understand, 48 00:03:01,776 --> 00:03:05,485 but also couldn't get out of. It almost felt like, with the 49 00:03:05,548 --> 00:03:08,629 addiction and the level of mental health impact-- 50 00:03:08,692 --> 00:03:12,213 self-induced mental health impact, mental health impact, 51 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:15,985 substance abuse usage - it almost felt like I was drowning. 52 00:03:16,048 --> 00:03:19,946 I felt like I couldn't come up out of a pool, that, and I kept 53 00:03:20,009 --> 00:03:23,844 trying to save my life. I kept trying to stop, because that's 54 00:03:23,907 --> 00:03:27,931 what family members say, that's what folks say, "just stop, just 55 00:03:27,994 --> 00:03:31,955 stop." You know, there was some other things that were going on 56 00:03:32,018 --> 00:03:35,916 that I couldn't tap into at the time. My substance abuse usage 57 00:03:35,979 --> 00:03:39,248 took off for maybe 32 - continued for 32 years of my 58 00:03:39,311 --> 00:03:43,272 life. At 42, I stopped. It's a long time. It's 32 years. At 42, 59 00:03:43,335 --> 00:03:46,793 I returned to school. I lost my son. Have two surviving 60 00:03:46,856 --> 00:03:50,691 daughters. I have five beautiful grandchildren. At 42, I went 61 00:03:50,754 --> 00:03:54,463 back to school. I now, today, will be 60 in two weeks. I've 62 00:03:54,526 --> 00:03:58,236 obtained nine letters behind my name: associate's degree, a 63 00:03:58,299 --> 00:04:02,323 bachelor's degree, two Master's degrees. I work internationally. 64 00:04:02,385 --> 00:04:06,284 I'm an international psychology student. I have one class left 65 00:04:06,346 --> 00:04:10,370 to finish my PhD. I dropped out of school in the eighth grade as 66 00:04:10,433 -->

00:04:14,017 a direct result of my lifestyle. But I want to talk about 67 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,475 something more daunting, something more like impactful 68 00:04:17,538 --> 00:04:21,122 that has really transitioned my life to even come on this 69 00:04:21,185 --> 00:04:25,083 platform. I want to talk about collateral consequences. I want 70 00:04:25,146 --> 00:04:28,604 to talk about, a little bit about, how even after doing 71 00:04:28,666 --> 00:04:31,999 everything that I could do to make a difference in my 72 00:04:32,062 --> 00:04:35,017 lifetime, with all these degrees, with all this 73 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:39,103 experience, with all this lived experience, with being an expert 74 00:04:39,166 --> 00:04:42,750 - a global expert, I work internationally - there's still 75 00:04:42,813 --> 00:04:46,585 barriers to me moving forward. Like the barriers are, like I 76 00:04:46,648 --> 00:04:50,358 couldn't get a license with my MSW - a license as a private 77 00:04:50,421 --> 00:04:54,319 practitioner. I have a private practice. I've been successful. 78 00:04:54,382 --> 00:04:57,965 I work with trans folks that were justice impacted, and I 79 00:04:58,028 --> 00:05:01,612 work with LGBTQ folks that have been impacted by domestic 80 00:05:01,675 --> 00:05:05,133 violence. Couldn't get a licensure. So that means that, 81 00:05:05,196 --> 00:05:08,905 you know, they have to pay cash pay. So when you're talking 82 00:05:08,968 --> 00:05:12,866 about dealing with marginalized communities, they don't always 83 00:05:12,929 --> 00:05:16,639 have money to pay cash pay. So I want to move into how this 84 00:05:16,702 --> 00:05:20,034 gender wealth gap really, you know, hurts me as a PhD 85 00:05:20,097 --> 00:05:23,932 candidate and as a person that is internationally invested. I 86 00:05:23,995 --> 00:05:27,956 want to say that, you know, the deliberate attempt with systems 87 00:05:28,019 --> 00:05:31,225 of injustice have gotten to a place where, like, my 88 00:05:31,288 --> 00:05:34,809 convictions have paused me from getting my licensure. My 89 00:05:34,872 --> 00:05:38,833 conviction stops me from getting at six figures a year - not my 90 00:05:38,896 --> 00:05:42,417 credentials, not my expertise, not my experience, but my 91 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:46,503 convictions. I am not my number. My call to action for this talk 92 00:05:46,566 --> 00:05:50,590 is to talk about, you know, the amendment to the Clean Slate. We 93 00:05:50,653 --> 00:05:54,488 have billions of dollars for expungement. We have billions of 94 00:05:54,551 --> 00:05:58,386 dollars for Clean Slate. Clean Slate only covers cleaning and 95 00:05:58,449 --> 00:06:02,222 expunging your record after 10 years for a felony, but those 96 00:06:02,285 --> 00:06:06,120 felonies don't include me. I got a trafficking charge for two 97 00:06:06,183 --> 00:06:10,144 bags of crack - drug trafficking with possession with intent to 98 00:06:10,207 --> 00:06:13,727 deliver. So, you know, when we talk about deliberate and 99 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:17,751 systemic injustice, we need to look at the fine tuning and mend 100 00:06:17,814 --> 00:06:21,650 the fine tuning with it. That's my call to action. Thank you. 101 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:26,550 Unknown: A note of context from WOMEN'S WAY. Sappho mentions 102 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:30,270 collateral consequences of incarceration, or the financial 103 00:06:30,270 --> 00:06:33,690 and professional consequences that incarceration has on an 104 00:06:33,690 --> 00:06:37,770 individual's quality of life. She names them as discriminatory 105 00:06:38,010 --> 00:06:42,210 against people of color, {LGBTQ} plus people, and low-income 106 00:06:42,210 --> 00:06:45,930 people. Let's talk about Second Chance Hiring and Clean Slate 107 00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:49,860 -existing practices and policies to address this gap, but are far 108 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:53,520 from sufficient. Second Chance Hiring is the practice of 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,270 intentionally hiring individuals with a record; a call to action 110 00:06:57,270 --> 00:07:00,570 to employers to correct the discriminatory employment gap 111 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:04,500 that forces people in re-entry into minimum and sub minimum 112 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:08,640 wage jobs with no pathway to advance. According to the Clean 113 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,080 Slate Initiative, some $87 billion is lost every year in 114 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,800 GDP due to the "un" and "under" employment of people with a 115 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,970 criminal record. JPMorgan, which Sappho mentions in a little bit, 116 00:07:21,180 --> 00:07:23,850 is leading an effort to strengthen Second Chance Hiring 117 00:07:23,850 --> 00:07:25,170 policy in banking. 118 00:07:26,230 --> 00:07:29,650 Clean Slate refers to state legislation that automatically 119 00:07:29,650 --> 00:07:35,050 seals records for people who meet certain requirements. This 120 00:07:35,050 --> 00:07:38,260 means that when a potential employer, landlord, or loaning 121 00:07:38,260 --> 00:07:40,720 institution conducts a background check, their 122 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,560 convictions will not show up. Pennsylvania was the first state 123 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,190 to pass the Clean Slate Act in 2018, but its requirements are 124 00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:52,450 extremely rigid. For instance, only those with nonviolent first 125 00:07:52,450 --> 00:07:55,750 offenses are eligible for automatic Record Sealing one 126 00:07:55,750 --> 00:07:58,600 year after their release, and those with certain types of 127 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,340 felonies are eligible after 10 years. PA recently expanded the 128 00:08:03,340 --> 00:08:07,120 eligibility requirements in 2023, shortening wait times for 129 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,850 felonies and allowing more felonies, including drug 130 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:14,290 felonies with a minimum sentence of 29 months or less.

Sappho 131 00:08:14,290 --> 00:08:17,260 mentions that despite the expansion, they're still not 132 00:08:17,260 --> 00:08:20,560 eligible for [record] sealing. Additionally, eligible 133 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,950 individuals are unable to get their record sealed until they 134 00:08:23,950 --> 00:08:27,610 pay their restitution or the sum of money the court determines 135 00:08:27,610 --> 00:08:30,970 that they owe to the victim. As we've heard from Jamila, 136 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:34,510 restitution is extremely difficult to pay, especially for 137 00:08:34,510 --> 00:08:37,270 those who are already experiencing poverty, those who 138 00:08:37,270 --> 00:08:41,560 are caretakers when they return. When we think about who was 139 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:45,700 targeted by discriminatory war-on-drug-era policies at the 140 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,790 intersection of increasing numbers of incarcerated women, 141 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:51,790 it seems that the communities most targeted by mass 142 00:08:51,790 --> 00:08:55,330 incarceration are least likely to benefit from this type of 143 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:58,420 legislation. Check the show notes for links for more 144 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:01,630 information and for resources. Let's get back to the show. 145 00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:20,050 Nicole Blackson: Hi, I'm Nicole Blackson with Love Now Media, 146 00:09:20,050 --> 00:09:24,220 and today I'll be speaking with fellow Sappho Fulton. So thank 147 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:27,400 you so much for joining me today, Sappho, I've heard a lot 148 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,480 about your story, and I think one of the things, while I've 149 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,790 learned so much, I want to know, what have you learned about 150 00:09:33,790 --> 00:09:35,500 yourself during this fellowship? 151 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,370 Sappho Fulton: The size of my truth, even talking with my 152 00:09:39,370 --> 00:09:44,500 introduction, like the size of my...The parts of me that were 153 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:50,470 before age 42 I've stuffed. I've stuffed in a way that I almost 154 00:09:50,470 --> 00:09:54,100 wanted to believe that they never happened. You know, I 155 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:57,640 didn't want people to know how much trauma I had been and 156 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,600 experienced. You know, I thought that if I acted as if, and if I 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,810 showed up, and if I did the things that society say is 158 00:10:04,810 --> 00:10:08,200 normal, that people would kind of see and appreciate my 159 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,190 successes, and they wouldn't ask me, like, what happened to you. 160 00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:16,180 You know, coming into this fellowship like, it was like, I 161 00:10:16,180 --> 00:10:21,520 want to build the bridge, because I no longer want to show 162 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,750 up and act as if. Like I'm a whole person, and my story 163 00:10:25,750 --> 00:10:28,510 matters, and I know it can matter to someone else's life. 164 00:10:30,330 --> 00:10:31,890 Nicole Blackson: What are some of the areas that you would like 165 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:35,850 to see the impact of people who have experienced things like you 166 00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:38,700 in the design of like the carceral system? 167 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:44,600 Sappho Fulton: I needed help early on. I needed mental health 168 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,400 help. Um, I never wanted to take medication. Medication has been 169 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,700 stigmatized in the Black community. I've had adult ADHD. 170 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:55,370 You know, I'm super smart and it's super - there's so many 171 00:10:55,370 --> 00:10:57,350 things that I can do, but there's so many things that I 172 00:10:57,350 --> 00:11:00,950 needed. I was homeless for years, and didn't even... I was 173 00:11:00,950 --> 00:11:03,560 so high, I didn't even realize I was homeless, like, you know, 174 00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:07,580 literally. So, because I had become comfortable in that 175 00:11:07,580 --> 00:11:11,360 culture. And I had become comfortable with getting tired, 176 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,900 like so many people we see today in degradation. You know, 177 00:11:14,900 --> 00:11:17,960 they're like, why don't you just go to a shelter? Because it's 178 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,340 safe there on the street. It's safe in that community. You 179 00:11:22,340 --> 00:11:25,970 understand? You know what to expect. You know. They're kind 180 00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:29,330 of unwritten rules. I needed help early on. 181 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:35,000 Yeah. What was that moment when you realized, like, wow, like, 182 00:11:35,030 --> 00:11:38,000 I'm a child, because you said, from the age of, I think 183 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:42,830 eight... When did you realize, "I need some help. I'm different 184 00:11:42,830 --> 00:11:46,190 from maybe somebody else in my class. I need something more?" 185 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:56,800 I don't think I saw it because I remember I was, I was a bully. I 186 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:03,280 was angry. I didn't find a place of belonging, you know. I came 187 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,820 up in a house of hustlers. I didn't have a whole lot of 188 00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:10,600 choices, because I really wanted... I was the kid that 189 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,740 always wanted to be like my dad, you know. My dad, he had a 190 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:18,670 speakeasy. He had women. He had a job, you know, and they always 191 00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:21,760 looked at the fact that he was always sharp. And I wanted to be 192 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,430 just like my dad, and I remember when my dad was on his deathbed, 193 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:28,180 you know, and my dad was a really good provider, you know. 194 00:12:28,180 --> 00:12:30,430 My dad was on his deathbed, and he looked up at me, and I was... 195 00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:33,340 I remember,

I think I was like, between, I was about eight years 196 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:36,160 old, and he looked up at me and he said, you know, you're the 197 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,420 man of the house. Now you gotta take care of things. And I have 198 00:12:40,420 --> 00:12:44,830 this pillow that says, you know, saying 'the man with the master 199 00:12:44,830 --> 00:12:47,830 plan never worked, never will.' So I kind of like had those 200 00:12:47,860 --> 00:12:53,800 ideologies and those those misconstrued thought processes 201 00:12:53,830 --> 00:12:56,170 early on. And when I say misconstrued, because I've had 202 00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:59,410 another side of life, because I thought that was it. 203 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:03,730 Nicole Blackson: So after going through the carceral system, but 204 00:13:03,730 --> 00:13:05,890 then going in there with an eighth grade education, you 205 00:13:05,890 --> 00:13:06,430 said, right? 206 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,850 Sappho Fulton: Tested in at Muncie at a second grade reading 207 00:13:09,850 --> 00:13:10,180 level. 208 00:13:10,180 --> 00:13:12,250 Nicole Blackson: Second grade reading level... now to being a 209 00:13:12,250 --> 00:13:16,000 doctoral candidate. Yeah, it's something. 210 00:13:17,010 --> 00:13:19,200 Sappho Fulton: Yeah, something bigger than me. 211 00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:22,500 Nicole Blackson: Yeah, something bigger than you. So when you 212 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:27,330 talk about not being able to get your licensure because of your 213 00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:31,920 conviction, what is that something? 214 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,590 Sappho Fulton: It just feels like, as a woman of color, a 215 00:13:35,590 --> 00:13:38,650 lesbian woman of color, it just feels like it's just never 216 00:13:38,650 --> 00:13:42,400 enough. Systemically, it's like it's never enough, no matter how 217 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,860 hard I work, no matter what I do. It's just like it's never 218 00:13:44,860 --> 00:13:52,810 enough, you know. It's no matter what you do. But then again, you 219 00:13:52,810 --> 00:13:55,930 know, like, I beg to differ, on a lot of days, like I'm crying, 220 00:13:55,930 --> 00:13:58,480 like I'm feeling it, you know, you always make me vulnerable, 221 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,120 Nick like you always pull that thing out of me, but like, the 222 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,690 reality of it is, is like, I'm so optimistic and I'm so self 223 00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:10,270 determined, because I know where I come from. It's always like, I 224 00:14:10,270 --> 00:14:12,850 wake up in the morning and I tell myself, like you know, I 225 00:14:12,850 --> 00:14:15,580 remind myself to tell myself like you're more than enough. 226 00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:20,710 You got this. Push through, even if your voice shakes, raise it. 227 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,630 You know, raise it. 228 00:14:22,930 --> 00:14:24,550 Nicole Blackson: Absolutely and I'm grateful for your example. I 229 00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:25,630 mean, to go through all the twists and turns, right, and to 230 00:14:25,630 --> 00:14:30,910 your point, you had to just make a decision to stop, but you also 231 00:14:30,910 --> 00:14:34,570 had to make a decision to start: to start doing the things, to 232 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:38,140 educate yourself, to start helping people. What clicked for 233 00:14:38,140 --> 00:14:41,320 you to say, 'I want to help these group of people?' 234 00:14:43,610 --> 00:14:46,820 Sappho Fulton: It was a call to action. It was a call to action. 235 00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:50,210 I was terrified to come outside of my box. I was, when I say 236 00:14:50,210 --> 00:14:55,040 box, I was in a silence. I was in a space where...I was in a 237 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,640 space where, um, I had the blinders on when I came home 238 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:00,800 from jail. I couldn't be with my old friends. I couldn't be with 239 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,200 the persons that I was incarcerated with. I couldn't be 240 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,230 around it because I was attached to the lifestyle. It wasn't that 241 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:09,650 I thought I was better. I had to believe I was better, and I had 242 00:15:09,650 --> 00:15:14,810 to walk in different spaces, you know? But it was a call to 243 00:15:14,810 --> 00:15:20,270 action, because it was like, I was in Africa. I was in Africa. 244 00:15:20,270 --> 00:15:22,820 I went to Africa for like seven months. I got a program in 245 00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:25,790 Africa, and I was living in Africa, and I was doing shadow 246 00:15:25,790 --> 00:15:29,930 work, and it was like spirits spoke to me, and it was so loud 247 00:15:29,930 --> 00:15:34,310 and clear. And it was like, it is an absolute call to action. I 248 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:37,760 remember when I got initiated to Ifa. I'm an Ifa priestess. I 249 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,060 practice African spirituality, I practice Yoruba. And when I got 250 00:15:41,060 --> 00:15:44,390 initiated, it dropped down on my calling, on my life path. It's 251 00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:49,730 like you've got something to do. This second chance was not about 252 00:15:49,730 --> 00:15:52,850 you. It's like you've got something to do. And I was like, 253 00:15:52,850 --> 00:15:53,720 I don't want to do it. 254 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,800 Nicole Blackson: Right? Sometimes we resist so much, 255 00:15:56,610 --> 00:15:57,150 yeah. 256 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,360 Sappho Fulton: So I've been in Africa. I just came back in 257 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,790 November, and I haven't stopped since I came back. Because it 258 00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:06,000 was, it was, no doubt, it was no saying, 'No, my life wasn't 259 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:06,600 about me.' 260 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:08,517 Nicole Blackson: Yeah, you mentioned something [about] 261 00:16:08,567 --> 00:16:11,630 Second Chance. Could you speak a little bit about, uh, Second 262

00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,040 Chance employers and what you have experienced. 263 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,578 Sappho Fulton: Alright, now I'm gonna stop crying because now 264 00:16:16,633 --> 00:16:19,833 I'm gonna get angry a little bit, because when we talk, we 265 00:16:19,888 --> 00:16:23,088 talk about...I told you, I'm an expert in systems. I study 266 00:16:23,143 --> 00:16:26,509 systems as a PhD student. When we talk about system, systemic 267 00:16:26,564 --> 00:16:29,930 injustice, I want to talk about how a policy... Second Chance 268 00:16:29,985 --> 00:16:33,516 hires had this policy that they say that they hire Second Chance 269 00:16:33,571 --> 00:16:36,992 employees, you know, so when you come home from incarceration, 270 00:16:37,047 --> 00:16:40,303 I'll give you this, how this kind of works. Like, so, good, 271 00:16:40,358 --> 00:16:43,337 I'm a Systems expert, but...so when you come over from 272 00:16:43,392 --> 00:16:46,703 incarceration, they give this sheet, and they say, these are 273 00:16:46,758 --> 00:16:50,068 places that you can get a job -they're all minimum wage paid 274 00:16:50,124 --> 00:16:53,600 jobs, you know. So, if you, so, if you don't go there, then you 275 00:16:53,655 --> 00:16:57,131 you don't really want a job. Is the ex - is the thought process 276 00:16:57,186 --> 00:17:00,441 of the parole officer, the judge, you know, if you don't go 277 00:17:00,496 --> 00:17:03,807 to McDonald's... Like, if you don't go to these minimum wage 278 00:17:03,862 --> 00:17:07,283 paying positions, then you don't really, not, you don't really 279 00:17:07,338 --> 00:17:10,648 want to make a difference in your life and work. So somebody 280 00:17:10,704 --> 00:17:14,069 that comes home with some skill sets, that is qualified to go 281 00:17:14,124 --> 00:17:17,435 into a job that is paying a livable wage, like saying, maybe 282 00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:20,690 making more... I'm just at a bare minimum, maybe $60,000 / 283 00:17:20,745 --> 00:17:24,001 50-60,000 with a skill set... welding, you know, industrial 284 00:17:24,056 --> 00:17:27,256 cleaning, maybe marketing, maybe banking, maybe, you know, 285 00:17:27,311 --> 00:17:30,842 executive director. In these six figure positions, $60,000 plus, 286 00:17:30,897 --> 00:17:33,932 I'm just saying 60 at a low minimum... their jobs don't 287 00:17:33,987 --> 00:17:37,408 qualify. They pay you $60,000 if you're formerly incarcerated. 288 00:17:37,463 --> 00:17:40,829 They'll start you at $90,000 with a bachelors if you have the 289 00:17:40,884 --> 00:17:44,250 skill sets and you got a good resume. So when you look at the 290 00:17:44,305 --> 00:17:47,726 policy you have to look at the policy line, because the policy 291 00:17:47,781 --> 00:17:51,036 line states Second Chance Hire, but at a 2%... so it's like 292 00:17:51,091 --> 00:17:54,678 something I learned from my good comrade, Diane. I'm not going to 293 00:17:54,733 --> 00:17:58,154 say her last name. I'll let

her tell her own business. But she 294 00:17:58,209 --> 00:18:01,354 talked about on one of her talks, where these foundations 295 00:18:01,409 --> 00:18:04,885 only give out... they have this 5% fund where they have to give 296 00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:08,085 back this money, but they make interest on the endowment. 297 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:11,340 That's the same thing with Second Chance Hires - like they 298 00:18:11,395 --> 00:18:14,706 make interest on, you know, they they have a... some kind of 299 00:18:14,761 --> 00:18:18,182 compensation. I haven't quite figured it out yet, because once 300 00:18:18,237 --> 00:18:21,658 I do, I wanted to kind of create something else, but they have 301 00:18:21,713 --> 00:18:24,803 some kind of compensation for saying, like, I'm a Second 302 00:18:24,858 --> 00:18:28,224 Chance Hire. It is almost like affirmative action, right? But 303 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:31,589 they don't. JPMorgan is going up against it now because he's 304 00:18:31,645 --> 00:18:34,845 talking about, like, why can't I bring some folks in to do 305 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:38,321 banking and do administrative work if I move this policy line? 306 00:18:38,376 --> 00:18:41,741 So they're trying to figure out how to systemically move this 307 00:18:41,797 --> 00:18:45,107 policy line, because it is a barrier. Not to mention being a 308 00:18:45,162 --> 00:18:48,142 black woman, being a woman, being a black woman, being 309 00:18:48,197 --> 00:18:51,507 formerly incarcerated, being of a different kind of culture, 310 00:18:51,562 --> 00:18:54,818 being of a diverse background, because you're talking about 311 00:18:54,873 --> 00:18:58,018 justice impacted so you coming from a whole other culture 312 00:18:58,073 --> 00:19:01,604 anyway - we speak different, we act different, we speak with our 313 00:19:01,659 --> 00:19:04,860 hands, we're more aggressive, we're almost intimidating... 314 00:19:04,330 --> 00:19:06,370 Nicole Blackson: Yes, I want to talk about that because, as 315 00:19:06,370 --> 00:19:08,980 you're speaking, I'm thinking of the intersectionality, right, in 316 00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:11,800 regards to race, gender, but I'm also thinking about it in 317 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,880 regards to socioeconomic status, but also when you get into the 318 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,900 workplace, like, what is the level of empathy that you need 319 00:19:20,170 --> 00:19:22,930 to feel, like, if you're a Second Chance employer, you 320 00:19:22,930 --> 00:19:25,570 should be looking at these things. Consider me for this, 321 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,080 but also make sure that you are providing empathy in this way. 322 00:19:29,830 --> 00:19:32,290 What would be some of those things that you would say Second 323 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:34,450 Chance employers should really be looking at to provide 324 00:19:34,450 --> 00:19:34,930 empathy? 325 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,647 Sappho Fulton: Increased professional development, but 326

00:19:38,703 --> 00:19:41,677 increased professional development in a way that fits, 327 00:19:41,732 --> 00:19:44,816 fits the room. Like, you know, how do you say, takes the 328 00:19:44,871 --> 00:19:48,396 temperature in the room, right, and check my audience. You know, 329 00:19:48,451 --> 00:19:51,701 I supervise men. I have two teams of men, right now. I have 330 00:19:51,756 --> 00:19:55,115 a team of men that are credible messengers. They work with at 331 00:19:55,170 --> 00:19:58,750 risk youth. I have a team of men that work with, inside the jail, 332 00:19:58,805 --> 00:20:01,945 with formerly incarcerated people, and I have some of the 333 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,194 men that say to me, you ain't no real man. I wish you stop 334 00:20:05,249 --> 00:20:08,940 talking to me like that, you know, and I'm like, 'What am I doing?' 335 00:20:08,910 --> 00:20:11,610 Nicole Blackson: So then we get into gender expression. This 336 00:20:11,610 --> 00:20:14,640 will be like my final question. How does gender expression 337 00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:17,490 impact your professionalism experience? 338 00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:20,160 Sappho Fulton: It really does as an aggressive presenting women. 339 00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:22,110 You know, the women look at you funny when you walk in the 340 00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:25,140 bathroom at work. You know, it's not just our trans siblings. 341 00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:26,970 It's not just our gender non conforming folks that are 342 00:20:26,970 --> 00:20:29,310 misgendered. It's like the aggressive presenting women as 343 00:20:29,310 --> 00:20:32,460 well. You don't have work boos or you get a sexual harassment 344 00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:32,940 charge. 345 00:20:33,090 --> 00:20:34,920 Nicole Blackson: So checking in with that double standard, not 346 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,830 just for those who are justice impacted, but also in regards to 347 00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:40,470 gender expression and sexuality as well, is what I'm hearing. 348 00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:43,920 Sappho Fulton: There's, yeah. Though intersectionalities 349 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,140 definitely do impact you. When we talk about the gender wealth 350 00:20:46,140 --> 00:20:49,800 gap, that thing matters even with men that are directors. 351 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,180 It's always a, it's always a pushback. It's always a pushback 352 00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:56,550 on mannerism. It's always a pushback on culture differences. 353 00:20:56,550 --> 00:20:57,900 It's always like you are not enough. 354 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:01,650 Nicole Blackson: So instead of saying you are not enough, what 355 00:21:01,650 --> 00:21:03,180 do you affirm and tell yourself every day? 356 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,140 Sappho Fulton: I'm more than enough. 357 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,440 Nicole Blackson: More than enough. Thank you so much Sappho 358 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:06,040 for joining us. 359 00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:07,800 Sappho Fulton: I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. 360 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,690 Unknown: Thanks for listening to Behind [Beyond] the Razor Wire 361 00:21:12,690 --> 00:21:16,020 Fence. This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with 362 00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:19,230 WOMEN'S WAY, Change the Narrative Fellows, Love Now 363 00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:21,480 Media, and Lil Drummaboy Recordings.