התמלול המלא של Meg Mason, Sophie, Standing There

00:04:13.433 Like, it was really painful. 00:04:13.443 --> 00:04:15.484 Looking back, it was actually really sad. 00:04:15.984 --> 00:04:16.834 And I was sad. 00:04:16.843 --> 00:04:25.324 And mercifully for me, I found Emma by Jane Austen in that time was'cause we were meant to study it, and I read it'cause I wouldn't have read it in New Zealand. 00:04:25.324 --> 00:04:26.853 I would've had too many fun things to do. 00:04:27.264 --> 00:04:35.134 But then this turned out to be a fun thing, and I pivoted really quickly, and I studied English literature at university, made friends, thank goodness. 00:04:35.574 --> 00:04:41.014 But I think what's interesting, and I'd only put together, is that my mother read books. 00:04:41.024 --> 00:04:53.733 She snuck them into our house somehow, you know, because she wasn't born into this thing, so she'd already done her own English literature degree, and it must have been shocking to then find that reading was frowned upon and, you know, secular reading. 00:04:54.103 --> 00:05:02.783 So she read to us all the time, but I remember the two books that I loved the most as a little child were picture books, by which I mean they had no words. 00:05:02.783 --> 00:05:05.954 They were just pictures and, you know, you would tell the story yourself. 00:05:06.423 --> 00:05:11.634 And I sometimes just wonder if that's what I was straining towards, would be to tell the story myself. 00:05:11.634 --> 00:05:13.963 And I do remember I always wrote. 00:05:14.064 --> 00:05:22.723 Like, my mother has this amazing shoebox full of little stories that I wrote, and some of them sound so, like, I mean this in a humble way, but so novelistic. 00:05:22.733 --> 00:05:31.634 Like, if I can step outside myself for a minute, I'm like, this is someone who, whether or not she had a, the talent to be a novelist, she had the deep desire to be a novelist. 00:05:31.644 --> 00:05:34.704 But I didn't know that that was a thing'cause I hadn't read any books. 00:05:35.014 --> 00:05:46.264 So when I finally sort of turned to it, I was like,"Oh," but it took me Until I was 30 to maybe articulate that desire because it's hard to go around saying you wanna be a novelist and everyone's like,"Have you read this? 00:05:46.264 --> 00:05:48.394 Have you read that?" You're like,"No, no, no, haven't. 00:05:48.413 --> 00:05:49.923 Not that one either." Da, da, da. 00:05:49.923 --> 00:05:53.413 So anyway, so at least I had the good sense to keep it to myself. 00:05:53.564 --> 00:05:56.593 But yeah, I think it's been with me in some form my entire life 00:05:56.898 --> 00:05:57.367 That's amazing. 00:05:57.367 --> 00:06:03.648 I, I read once something said,"I- if you wanna know what you should be doing in your life, look back to what you did as a child." 00:06:03.790 --> 00:06:04.850 Age 11. 00:06:04.850 --> 00:06:05.730 I've heard age 11. 00:06:05.730 --> 00:06:06.971 I've heard the exact same thing. 00:06:06.971 --> 00:06:07.891 What were you doing at 11? 00:06:08.350 --> 00:06:14.870 And I used to have this game where I played this is really sad too, where I just sat at my desk and shuffled paper. 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:17.310 That was all I did, and I pretended to write. 00:06:17.771 --> 00:06:19.211 Like, I don't know if I was writing. 00:06:19.230 --> 00:06:22.391 And my granny had this typewriter that... 00:06:22.471 --> 00:06:38.831 I think you and I are a similar age, but it was like a, it was like an early word processor, so you could type a whole line onto this tiny LED screen, like a calculator screen almost, and then you press return, and it came out all in one line, and it was like in Courier-type font. 00:06:39.091 --> 00:06:45.350 And even describing it to you now, I just gave myself goosebumps'cause I loved that thing so much, and she would let me use it. 00:06:45.670 --> 00:06:49.911 And I remem- I've got a novel that I wrote, like 250 words on that, on that thing. 00:06:49.911 --> 00:06:52.880 So I would've been around 11 then, and I just... 00:06:53.261 --> 00:06:57.781 Isn't it funny what you give to kids, and it's like, oh, this life-changing use of the typewriter 00:06:58.379 --> 00:07:06.569 Yeah, and we had one of those, we had one of those old typewriters that had the keys that literally the cl-clack, clack, cl-clack, clack, cl-clack, clack. 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:07.699 I mean, the, the finger use. 00:07:07.699 --> 00:07:08.879 That and the rotary phones. 00:07:08.918 --> 00:07:09.658 I mean, God 00:07:09.906 --> 00:07:10.747 Oh my gosh. 00:07:10.766 --> 00:07:15.177 And also the address book where you slid the thing down the side and it popped open to the alphabet. 00:07:15.396 --> 00:07:16.906 Are you and I 100? 00:07:17.187 --> 00:07:19.427 Or is at least our combined age 100 00:07:19.490 --> 00:07:19.781 Yes. 00:07:19.810 --> 00:07:23.201 I'll- well, I'm 58, so I'm older than 00:07:23.259 --> 00:07:24.759 I'm 48, so there we go. 00:07:24.821 --> 00:07:26.100 Yeah, I'm much older than you are. 00:07:26.130 --> 00:07:27.230 I'm somewhere between 00:07:27.249 --> 00:07:28.189 almost Rolodex. 00:07:28.189 --> 00:07:29.968 You would've had your own Rolodex. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:30.899 I- 00:07:30.956 --> 00:07:33.586 They were starting to print paper at that point, yes. 00:07:33.819 --> 00:07:34.478 Oh, it's amazing 00:07:34.916 --> 00:07:35.497 I don't even think... 00:07:35.497 --> 00:07:40.266 No, I don't think I had a Rolodex at that point, but my mom had everything on slips of paper,'cause Post-its hadn't even 00:07:40.630 --> 00:07:41.100 Yeah. 00:07:41.151 --> 00:07:42.951 Packs of envelopes, index 00:07:43.036 --> 00:07:45.466 like just stuffed in a thing, like all the way down. 00:07:45.466 --> 00:07:48.297 But I loved that thing that you'd press the button, it would flip open. 00:07:48.716 --> 00:07:49.026 Okay. 00:07:49.026 --> 00:07:54.764 So, Sophie, staying there, do you have a, I know you do, an elevator pitch of the book? 00:07:56.004 --> 00:08:00.343 I

always feel like I could give you an elevator pitch if I could jam the doors, like if I slammed that 00:08:00.463 --> 00:08:00.874 That's okay. 00:08:00.874 --> 00:08:02.803 And it could be a long building and it could be a tall building 00:08:03.283 --> 00:08:04.274 Exactly, right? 00:08:04.274 --> 00:08:07.233 And then we just decide to s- stop between floors so I can give you... 00:08:07.233 --> 00:08:09.204 I'll just read you the novel in its entirety. 00:08:09.533 --> 00:08:12.934 It is a novel about Sophie, who is 37. 00:08:13.353 --> 00:08:21.343 She's a technician at a literary festival, so she's in sound production, which is now ironic'cause you and I just struggled for 15 minutes to even get our AirPods to work. 00:08:21.634 --> 00:08:23.963 So clearly it's not autobiographical in that regard. 00:08:24.244 --> 00:08:29.303 Anyway, she's a very proficient, clever, professional tech at a literary festival. 00:08:29.824 --> 00:08:31.663 But when we meet her, she's just... 00:08:31.663 --> 00:08:34.724 Her, her husband has ended their marriage. 00:08:34.734 --> 00:08:35.004 She's... 00:08:35.004 --> 00:08:36.683 This is four months after that moment. 00:08:36.703 --> 00:08:41.153 So even though she's really popular at work, you know, her Gen Z colleagues really love her. 00:08:41.903 --> 00:08:42.813 She's got a best friend. 00:08:42.813 --> 00:08:44.403 She's got a brother that she adores. 00:08:44.673 --> 00:08:47.854 She looks around and her life is suddenly incredibly depopulated. 00:08:47.874 --> 00:08:51.244 There's just no one there, so you can see where I got the loneliness thing from. 00:08:51.634 --> 00:08:55.374 But in the middle of all of that, she connects with a novel. 00:08:55.374 --> 00:08:56.344 She's a big reader. 00:08:56.644 --> 00:09:06.703 She connects with a novel that she'd sort of read a long time ago and it didn't move her, but it does now because, you know, she's, I guess, she's aged into the, whatever this target audience, I guess. 00:09:06.744 --> 00:09:09.153 There's something about this novel that just speaks to her. 00:09:09.573 --> 00:09:15.884 And as well as getting very attached to the novel, she gets incredibly attached to the author in the way that it's possible to do now. 00:09:15.884 --> 00:09:19.394 You know, she sort of that first day goes and does the Google deep dive. 00:09:19.394 --> 00:09:20.923 She listens to all the podcasts. 00:09:20.933 --> 00:09:28.484 She reads all the articles and develops this preoccupation with the author, which sort of moves almost into, to imaginary friend territory. 00:09:28.494 --> 00:09:40.703 Like, after a short time she's sort of chatting to the author in her head and then having become so familiarized with her voice, you know, the author's voice from the podcast and things, she then starts to feel that the author's speaking back to her. 00:09:40.703 --> 00:09:50.994 And I would say in all of that, that, you know, words like obsession and parasocial are kind of being thrown around and, but what I wanted to show is that Sophie is not unhinged. 00:09:51.144 --> 00:10:01.153 You know, she's an incredibly sane, very sensible person, but she's just swept up in this kind of relationship that is fulfilling all of her needs in this really difficult time. 00:10:02.333 --> 00:10:15.083 And because my argument is this can happen to any and all of us and probably has, like especially for readers, I'm like,"Tell me truthfully, hand on your heart, that you've never thought in the direction of a particular author." Do you know what I mean? 00:10:15.094 --> 00:10:15.453 Have you... 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:16.559 Because you're lying. 00:10:16.779 --> 00:10:17.440 You know what I'm saying? 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.429 Like, as in you have definitely had... 00:10:20.450 --> 00:10:26.779 You know, you've chatted to Jane Austen in your head or when you read Middlemarch you became so obsessed that you imagined meeting George Eliot. 00:10:26.789 --> 00:10:28.429 You know, all of those things, or a modern-day author. 00:10:29.110 --> 00:10:32.289 I just think that's what we readers do, and I think it's amazing. 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:45.169 And then of course in the novel, Sophie thinks she'll never meet this author because, you know, Sophie lives in this unnamed but clearly very secondary city and then the author comes and meets her and that's where the story really unfolds 00:10:45.514 --> 00:10:54.994 And then you place this, in the book community, and you use these events that she's the technician for, and, and effectively hooking people up with their mics. 00:10:55.543 --> 00:10:59.864 Um, you use real-life people that everyone can identify with, which is so much fun. 00:10:59.982 --> 00:11:09.785 But it's such an interesting thing Making her this technician because it's also placing her in this world where you're so close to the person. 00:11:09.806 --> 00:11:18.346 I mean, you're intimately close to the person by threading the mic actually through their clothes, and yet to them it's the invisibility thing. 00:11:18.596 --> 00:11:22.316 And it reminds me so much'cause, you know, I work in casting, and so I, I, I... 00:11:22.436 --> 00:11:29.176 looking at this so much, but being this close to these people but you're not really a part of those people 00:11:29.562 --> 00:11:30.022 Yeah. 00:11:30.211 --> 00:11:46.272 But likewise, I would imagine for a casting director, you know, y- if you have 100 people coming into your casting room in a day, you're not gonna remember any of their names, and yet they've come in, poured their heart and soul into this thing that they're doing, you know, in front of you, and you won't, you won't... 00:11:46.272 --> 00:11:49.861 You'll say,"Thanks very much," you know,"Off you go." And that was their whole day. 00:11:49.871 --> 00:11:51.111 And it's the same for Sophie. 00:11:51.111 --> 00:11:53.731 It's like she pours her heart and soul into this job. 00:11:53.731 --> 00:11:54.572 She loves

books. 00:11:54.581 --> 00:12:01.642 She loves reading, and she is seeking connection with anybody, which is ironic since she is actually connecting their mics. 00:12:01.682 --> 00:12:04.802 But of course, based on her personality, she'd never put herself forward. 00:12:05.111 --> 00:12:09.241 You know, she'd never actually sort of try and talk to these authors. 00:12:09.241 --> 00:12:11.412 But it's just, it's so interesting when it can be so... 00:12:11.481 --> 00:12:21.091 There's such an imbalance between, you know, in this interaction, what it means to one person and what it means to the other person, and I think that's what I wanted to show, that I don't care about the writer. 00:12:21.152 --> 00:12:21.572 Do you know what I mean? 00:12:21.572 --> 00:12:24.991 I care about Sophie, so I'm interested in what it feels like from her side. 00:12:25.302 --> 00:12:37.322 'Cause I guess I kind of know what it feels like from the author's side when you realize there's someone's hand definitely deep diving down your dress, but you don't have time to turn around and say hello'cause you're so focused on, like, r- learning your lines to go out on stage or whatever. 00:12:37.331 --> 00:12:38.542 So yeah. 00:12:38.851 --> 00:12:41.461 Yeah, no, it's, it's, it, it really, it's just a fascinating thing. 00:12:41.489 --> 00:12:42.619 and you're so in it. 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:44.979 Like, you're so in that moment of like you said, it's like I... 00:12:45.101 --> 00:12:50.302 You just wanna be seen, and you wanna be seen by that person, and you want them to, to see you. 00:12:50.325 --> 00:12:52.195 and maybe it's me, I never looked at her as... 00:12:53.245 --> 00:13:03.254 It is lonely, but again, it's just trying to find the connection and for someone to see her and acknowledge her and see her value and her worth 00:13:03.366 --> 00:13:03.797 Mm, 00:13:03.975 --> 00:13:04.465 all of it. 00:13:05.277 --> 00:13:06.476 Yeah, and a specialness. 00:13:06.586 --> 00:13:11.017 You know, I think everybody likes to feel that they've been recognized for something. 00:13:11.017 --> 00:13:13.517 Like, I was a journalist for 20 years before I wrote fiction. 00:13:13.517 --> 00:13:18.397 I remember going to interview Eddie Izzard, the comedian, who I really loved. 00:13:19.297 --> 00:13:19.917 And I was walking... 00:13:19.917 --> 00:13:25.576 You know, they would've been in the hotel room, having 50 journalists going through in a day. 00:13:25.897 --> 00:13:30.366 I remember walking there and I was like,"What if, what if she noticed me? 00:13:30.657 --> 00:13:37.517 What if she thought I was funny, and she said, like,'After this we'll go out for lunch?'" It was never gonna happen. 00:13:37.527 --> 00:13:37.996 Do you know what I mean? 00:13:37.996 --> 00:13:39.126 In a million years. 00:13:39.447 --> 00:13:46.067 But I just remember thinking, you know, you think,"What if, what if they saw something special in me?" And it's not their fault that they don't. 00:13:46.086

--> 00:13:46.486 Do you know what I mean? 00:13:46.486 --> 00:13:49.856 It's just that they've met 50 of you today, and you've met one of them. 00:13:50.067 --> 00:13:53.716 So I think it's just a really interesting, as I said, it's a really interesting imbalance. 00:13:53.787 --> 00:13:57.027 And I think Sophie's such a particular personality. 00:13:57.246 --> 00:14:01.476 And I think when her life was all going swimmingly she, you know, it wouldn't have meant so much to her. 00:14:01.547 --> 00:14:09.917 But she's just lost everything, so suddenly, you know, this, these moments that she has, this might be the only physical contact she has in an entire day. 00:14:10.206 --> 00:14:13.037 You know, but she contains it all because she is so stoic. 00:14:13.057 --> 00:14:19.027 It's just that w- when she kind of goes home to her cold, empty flat she allows her imagination to flourish 00:14:19.476 --> 00:14:37.756 It's so funny,'cause I even think about it doing this podcast,'cause I've, certainly have had that experience even on the other side with actors where you'll be like,"Oh my God, we're gonna be friends." Or I've done it with this podcast because I've gone through with, with, you know, like anyone, you have chemistry with certain people and more than others, And I'm like,"Oh my God, we're friends now." 00:14:38.407 --> 00:14:38.927 Yeah. 00:14:39.187 --> 00:14:41.116 But also the chemistry is essential. 00:14:41.116 --> 00:14:41.697 You have to... 00:14:41.726 --> 00:14:50.907 Like, it even says in the novel about stage events with the moderator is on stage, and she explains that, you know, the author explains that it's like a 55-minute affair. 00:14:50.927 --> 00:14:52.456 You have to have chemistry. 00:14:52.456 --> 00:14:59.336 You have to kind of fall into each other and discuss and chat, and then share stuff and share your trauma and do all of that. 00:14:59.336 --> 00:15:00.017 And it's like,"Okay, bye. 00:15:00.057 --> 00:15:00.307 Cool. 00:15:00.307 --> 00:15:07.236 Where's my Uber's coming?" You know, and it's over, and you sort of, you cut each other dead, but you were both just doing your job, and it's such a funny world. 00:15:07.236 --> 00:15:16.366 And then, you know, I think in the literary festival as well, like, I've heard actors say you have these six intense weeks with these actors, you know, while you're making a movie, and then it's all over. 00:15:16.366 --> 00:15:17.427 It's like the end of camp. 00:15:17.706 --> 00:15:19.697 And it's very similar with literary festivals. 00:15:19.697 --> 00:15:28.287 You're sort of thrown in, but it's even more concentrated because maybe you'll be on stage with this author for an hour, and then they go fly off to their next one, and you fly off to your next one. 00:15:28.287 --> 00:15:39.307 And, and you sort of, y- you have to attach to these people for a short time, and it, it is kind of, you know, there's real emotional resource and emotional labor involved in that just to give a good show 00:15:39.465 --> 00:15:39.825 Sure. 00:15:40.264 --> 00:15:45.835 And I think, and you can speak to this, the, the demands of writers have changed so radically. 00:15:45.835 --> 00:15:54.144 Like we talked earlier about when Sorrow and Bliss came out, there wasn't all of this, you know, podcasting and all of these different elements to things. 00:15:54.198 --> 00:15:54.471 Mm-hmm. 00:15:54.471 --> 00:15:57.568 Well, there were podcasts, but they were never filmed. 00:15:57.928 --> 00:16:02.379 That was the thing that like six weeks ago when the book first came out in Australia, I did my first podcast. 00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:06.979 He's like,"Okay, we're filming now." And I'm like,"Why?" And you know,'cause I'm so tech avoidant. 00:16:07.369 --> 00:16:07.849 I'm not... 00:16:08.278 --> 00:16:11.168 I just don't want any part of social media. 00:16:11.619 --> 00:16:16.908 And so when it was filmed, I was like,"You mean I have to put makeup on for a podcast now? 00:16:16.918 --> 00:16:21.708 Are you crazy?" Plus also, I live in Australia, so these podcasts are for me, they're gonna be at 10:00 PM. 00:16:22.028 --> 00:16:27.938 And I'm like,"Do you know how un- unnatural it is to be putting concealer and foundation on for me at 9:30 PM just so that you can see my face? 00:16:27.938 --> 00:16:30.548 It's not why I'm in the business." Do you know what I mean? 00:16:30.578 --> 00:16:32.418 So that's all been shocking. 00:16:32.428 --> 00:16:33.808 But anyway, sorry I cut you off. 00:16:33.918 --> 00:16:34.308 Please 00:16:34.404 --> 00:16:34.654 no. 00:16:34.654 --> 00:16:44.004 All I've been saying, yeah, all I'm saying is it must be just a different thing, and I, I think about it Because there's a different expectation of how, you know, a writer used to just, it was a solitary thing. 00:16:44.004 --> 00:16:51.205 You'd write and then you'd put out a book, and then maybe you'd go to some bookstores and sign some copies and meet some of your, your readers. 00:16:51.264 --> 00:16:55.154 And now it's expected, like, let's have a social media presence. 00:16:55.154 --> 00:16:56.044 Let's have this, let's have... 00:16:56.504 --> 00:16:59.884 And it's, uh, do you find it, it's gotta be strange in a way 00:17:00.106 --> 00:17:02.486 Well, it is so strange, but I think that it's... 00:17:02.927 --> 00:17:07.287 So I was on, I was on Instagram till like 2018. 00:17:07.787 --> 00:17:14.567 And I'd written in 2018 a novel that I got to the very end of it, 85,000 words or whatever it was, and I was like,"This is no good. 00:17:14.707 --> 00:17:16.737 I'll throw it away." I was devastated. 00:17:17.047 --> 00:17:18.247 I'd been on Instagram all that time. 00:17:18.257 --> 00:17:19.037 Like, I wasn't active on it. 00:17:19.037 --> 00:17:20.507 I had maybe 500 followers. 00:17:20.517 --> 00:17:20.777 Do you know? 00:17:20.777 --> 00:17:25.156 Like, I'd written one novel before that that was fine, but it didn't, you know, change the world. 00:17:25.787 -->

00:17:33.106 And I remember,'cause I was so sad after I threw this novel away, that I kind of just looked at my life and I was like,"What is helping? 00:17:33.106 --> 00:17:35.116 What is not helping?" And Instagram wasn't helping. 00:17:35.126 --> 00:17:47.797 I remember just thinking, you know, i- if you have a certain amount of emotional resource gifted to you in a day, how much of that do I wanna spend on looking at someone's holiday that is way better than my holiday? 00:17:47.826 --> 00:17:48.507 Do, do you know? 00:17:48.507 --> 00:17:50.596 Because that drains off, what, 10%. 00:17:50.997 --> 00:17:52.436 And then whatever else. 00:17:52.436 --> 00:17:56.237 I look on Twitter and someone's having a big argument, there's another 10% gone for me. 00:17:56.497 --> 00:18:03.527 And I just realized that if I was gonna write again, I wanted 100%, or as much as I could get, to be used on the novel. 00:18:03.527 --> 00:18:03.916 And I... 00:18:04.267 --> 00:18:06.356 It felt very risky because I'm like... 00:18:06.396 --> 00:18:11.116 You know, and again, I'm saying this all as someone who wasn't this huge, you know, Insta presence. 00:18:11.116 --> 00:18:13.686 It's not like I was an influencer or anything like that. 00:18:14.136 --> 00:18:21.326 But I just remember thinking, if I choose to put all my resources into the book, I'll write a better book, and I just have to hope it will sell itself. 00:18:21.616 --> 00:18:27.676 You know, that the extra I give myself to put into it will be much more powerful than please asking 500 people to buy it. 00:18:27.696 --> 00:18:29.737 And that is indeed what happened. 00:18:29.737 --> 00:18:35.166 And I think what I learned was, yes, there's demand, but that's just... 00:18:35.277 --> 00:18:36.547 it's an ideal. 00:18:36.567 --> 00:18:39.507 Maybe my publisher would like me to be on it, but I'm not willing to be. 00:18:39.547 --> 00:18:43.257 And I, I just think that you can avoid it. 00:18:43.267 --> 00:18:44.767 You know, you have choice in this. 00:18:44.767 --> 00:18:45.997 You don't have to be on it. 00:18:45.997 --> 00:18:47.737 It didn't exist 20 years ago. 00:18:47.807 --> 00:18:48.886 You'll get by. 00:18:49.237 --> 00:18:54.297 You know, if you write the best thing you can that's the most truthful thing you can, other people will sell it for you. 00:18:54.537 --> 00:18:59.707 Like, there's still nothing better than word of mouth when it comes to selling books, whether that's, you know, over BookTok and stuff. 00:18:59.787 --> 00:19:05.777 So I'm very grateful to the people who can be on social media and find it perfectly healthy, but I just wasn't one of them. 00:19:05.777 --> 00:19:08.557 So I find I can live much better without it. 00:19:09.067 --> 00:19:10.957 Does anyone find it perfectly healthy? 00:19:11.007 --> 00:19:11.737 Yeah. 00:19:12.196 --> 00:19:13.146 I don't know that anybody does. 00:19:13.186 --> 00:19:20.666 God, you've talked about how there, there are definitely parts of you

that you've drawn into this world of your own self in terms of Sophie. 00:19:20.666 --> 00:19:30.280 But it's so interesting to me'cause as I was reading it, you know, this author Lilac Dunn, who she's, taken with, I just kept thinking so many people would view you as that writer. 00:19:30.300 --> 00:19:44.580 Not as this character by any stretch of the imagination, but in terms of viewing you as that person who they're finding things to identify with you because of what you've written, in much of the way Sophie does with this woman. 00:19:44.651 --> 00:19:49.784 Then I love that you find so much of yourself in Sophie. 00:19:49.963 --> 00:19:50.203 I don't know. 00:19:50.644 --> 00:19:51.054 Mm. 00:19:51.403 --> 00:19:55.413 Yeah, well, I think it's intentional because I didn't want to write about the book world. 00:19:55.413 --> 00:19:57.733 Like, I actively didn't want to, if that makes sense. 00:19:57.733 --> 00:20:08.344 I didn't wanna be this writer who, you know that whole second album syndrome where the first album's got your whole heart and soul, and then the second album is just about airports and hotel rooms because that's all you've been doing with your life for two years? 00:20:08.653 --> 00:20:12.693 So I was like,"I am not gonna do that," but it's all I'd been doing with my life for two years. 00:20:12.973 --> 00:20:15.683 So there it was, and it sort of had to be used. 00:20:16.013 --> 00:20:21.413 But I wanted the character of the writer of Lilac Dunn to stay very opaque. 00:20:21.423 --> 00:20:25.314 Like, I wanted it to be Sophie's voice, Sophie's world, Sophie's thoughts. 00:20:25.753 --> 00:20:31.284 It's not that I didn't care about the author, but I didn't want us to know anything about her that she herself wouldn't have put into the world. 00:20:31.564 --> 00:20:44.193 So there's kind of this balance there that, that Sophie discovers what she thinks is everything about the writer, but of course it's a heavily curated, probably quite inauthentic version of the writer that's just her public persona. 00:20:44.523 --> 00:20:59.314 But so for me, it was more of a study of fame and of privacy and of what to give away, and the only parts of myself that I put into the writer are probably the way that you behave when you start to believe... 00:20:59.344 --> 00:21:00.423 Like, I was 43. 00:21:00.453 --> 00:21:01.193 I was so lucky. 00:21:01.193 --> 00:21:02.433 When Stormoss happened, I was 43. 00:21:02.634 --> 00:21:10.861 Like, I was pretty certain of who I was and, you know, where I stood in life, so I wasn't easily swayed by the, you know, the, the attention. 00:21:10.901 --> 00:21:18.181 Like, I was, I was very, I was very much able to hold that at a distance and just enjoy the good bits, but not let it sort of inform who I was. 00:21:18.510 --> 00:21:20.330 The data was very much in there. 00:21:20.590 --> 00:21:33.550 But, um, yeah, there were times when I'm like,"Oh, this could really have changed me if this happened at a different time," and I was lucky to be able to put all of that into the author, but really holding her at arm's length while connecting deeply with Sophie 00:21:34.005 --> 00:21:41.545 One of the things I love that you, she touches on briefly, is Sophie talks about she never felt that she did it right with reading. 00:21:41.924 --> 00:21:42.444 And 00:21:42.636 --> 00:21:43.916 Yes, me neither 00:21:44.615 --> 00:21:49.535 and I love this, but I, I love this whole idea because I don't know people who do feel that they do it right 00:21:50.275 --> 00:21:50.884 Exactly. 00:21:51.075 --> 00:21:54.644 And I thought that that was just me because of my late start. 00:21:55.325 --> 00:22:02.954 And then I gave the book in proof to a novelist called Cathy Rentzenbrink, who's a writer, she's a moderator, she was a bookseller. 00:22:03.464 --> 00:22:09.805 She was, you know, she was that precocious child who read under the covers with a torch since, you know, since she could read. 00:22:09.815 --> 00:22:11.234 She's read everything. 00:22:12.005 --> 00:22:13.944 And I gave her The Girl, and she's like,"Oh, me neither. 00:22:13.944 --> 00:22:29.055 I don't think I'm doing it right either." And I'm like,"Babes, if you don't, then nobody's doing it right." And, you know, it's probably is exacerbated by BookTok and all of those things of, like,"I read 60 books in a year," and, you know, there's this real performative element that's come into reading. 00:22:29.065 --> 00:22:32.575 And I think it's such a shame because it's the most personal and private thing you can do. 00:22:32.575 --> 00:22:35.875 And, and it's lovely to chat about it, but there's no right way. 00:22:35.894 --> 00:22:42.214 It's just that we all feel this self-condemnation about what we have and haven't read, and I just think there's no wrong way to read. 00:22:42.224 --> 00:22:45.035 If you're reading at all, you know, and, and this is... 00:22:45.035 --> 00:22:53.515 I say this all the time, but it's because I really mean it, is that even though this book is kind of, you know, it's, it's very book-lovery. 00:22:53.515 --> 00:22:55.404 It's got lots of real authors mentioned in there. 00:22:55.404 --> 00:22:57.105 There's lots of real books mentioned in there. 00:22:57.644 --> 00:23:00.575 It isn't for literary people only, do you know? 00:23:00.595 --> 00:23:05.944 Like, you don't have to know who those writers are to understand a book, and you're not, you're not gonna feel excluded. 00:23:05.944 --> 00:23:07.674 It's not literary. 00:23:07.674 --> 00:23:10.384 It's not really intense and, you know, all of those things. 00:23:10.444 --> 00:23:15.095 It's a very chatty novel as though Sophie sort of voice noted the whole story to you. 00:23:15.444 --> 00:23:19.424 And so I think that is my way of saying there's, there's no wrong way. 00:23:19.444 --> 00:23:20.825 Just come and sit. 00:23:21.255 --> 00:23:22.595 Come and listen to a story. 00:23:22.653 --> 00:23:23.573 Yeah, 100%.

00:23:23.613 --> 00:23:30.962 I find myself reading through the Booker longlist this year and watching the chatter, and there's certain things that I'll read and I'll be... 00:23:31.113 --> 00:23:47.563 I, I literally will be like,"I don't get it." And other people are like,"Oh my God, it's so brilliant, and it's so..." And I'm, and I'm like,"Okay, is it just me?" And then I feel incredibly stupid and, like, trying to find, you know, people are like,"Oh, the themes and what it's saying." And I'm like, I, 00:23:47.901 --> 00:23:50.260 I just was letting the words wash through my head. 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:50.810 You know what I mean? 00:23:50.810 --> 00:23:51.201 I'm just... 00:23:51.401 --> 00:23:52.121 But, but is that... 00:23:52.151 --> 00:23:53.300 And I'm so uncritical. 00:23:53.320 --> 00:24:01.520 There's this whole part where Sophie is sort of explaining to the author the way she reads, and saying,"I never question it, and I never see a twist coming." And I, I just, you know. 00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:02.830 And who are these people who know? 00:24:02.830 --> 00:24:07.631 I mean, I did a literature degree, and I still don't know how to talk about novels like that, you know, in that way. 00:24:07.931 --> 00:24:09.651 But it doesn't mean I don't enjoy them. 00:24:09.681 --> 00:24:13.201 You know, it doesn't mean I don't love them, and that they, they mean something to me. 00:24:13.201 --> 00:24:17.010 But I just accept what the writer is trying to do, and I just don't think too deeply about it. 00:24:17.010 --> 00:24:18.721 I just, I just love to read 00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:20.030 Yeah, I'm the same way. 00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:25.863 And I also find that, I don't know about you, but like I, I do have kind of a, a gentle judgment about a book. 00:24:25.873 --> 00:24:41.623 If I'm not loving the book, I still have to look at a book and think,"Okay, someone sat down to write this." So I have a very hard time even like I watch some people eviscerate a book on some form of social platform, and I'm always like"What did it do to you?" And I understand people have a reaction. 00:24:41.633 --> 00:24:51.803 You may not like something, but I'm, I, I'm also just kind of the person like,"Okay, I'm taking this for the experience it is, and ultimately it might not be for me." But that, but that's just, you know, individuals. 00:24:51.903 --> 00:24:53.333 But I've very much been... 00:24:53.673 --> 00:24:57.613 So Sorry and Bliss was fairly, like, universally adored. 00:24:57.653 --> 00:25:03.833 Like, as in if I can say that, and I only mean it in the sense of within the group of people who read it, I didn't get bad reviews. 00:25:03.913 --> 00:25:05.163 You know, which is ridiculous. 00:25:05.163 --> 00:25:06.133 I just didn't get them. 00:25:06.173 --> 00:25:14.923 And there were people who didn't like Martha, and there were people who thought she should pull herself together, but that to me wasn't a review, that was people misunderstanding the fact she

had a chronic mental illness. 00:25:15.103 --> 00:25:17.042 So that didn't affect me at all. 00:25:17.292 --> 00:25:25.873 But this book is much more divisive maybe, just because I've picked a direction and I've gone in that direction, and it's maybe not the direction that people expected. 00:25:25.873 --> 00:25:28.242 It's certainly not the direction that I expected. 00:25:28.563 --> 00:25:30.163 So the response has been more mixed. 00:25:30.163 --> 00:25:37.863 But I'm like,"Guys, the stakes are not nearly as high as, as you're kind of..." You know, I read this one negative review, and it was like road rage. 00:25:38.113 --> 00:25:39.982 And I'm like,"Guys, just, just put it down. 00:25:39.982 --> 00:25:40.532 It's fine. 00:25:40.542 --> 00:25:43.212 It doesn't matter." Like, you know,"I'll give you your money back. 00:25:43.222 --> 00:25:44.103 Like, we can chill. 00:25:44.103 --> 00:25:45.363 It's just a book, and it's... 00:25:45.563 --> 00:25:53.423 I'll write more." And you know, Jane Austen wrote Mansfield Park right after Pride and Prejudice, and I bet if she was alive, you wouldn't have been so thrilled. 00:25:53.452 --> 00:25:56.042 But nobody wishes she didn't write Mansfield Park. 00:25:56.212 --> 00:25:57.863 She was just in a different mood. 00:25:57.903 --> 00:26:09.393 But I think when you're alive and you're producing novels, you don't have this, you know, this canon of your own that, you know, Austen has six novels, this is the one you love, this is the one you don't love. 00:26:09.593 --> 00:26:13.502 I think people are tracking someone's career much more and being like,"Has she lost it? 00:26:13.702 --> 00:26:20.712 Was it a fluke?" You know, like, it's just like, but one day I'll be dead, there'll be six or seven hopefully, and you can choose which one you like, and we'll all just calm down 00:26:21.285 --> 00:26:21.674 Right. 00:26:22.325 --> 00:26:23.375 That's exactly right. 00:26:23.724 --> 00:26:24.744 It's not that deep. 00:26:25.295 --> 00:26:28.214 There's one line I, I just loved that, that kind of gutted me. 00:26:28.214 --> 00:26:51.035 I have to say, I was reading this on a plane, I was, like, burning through, and I hit this line which comes at a point later in the novel, which one of the characters says to Sophie, which was,"I've never met someone who tries so hard to be happy by being kind." And that literally Now I'm like,"Okay, Meg, we're in therapy." That saw through me. 00:26:51.035 --> 00:26:52.875 I mean, I burst into tears on the plane. 00:26:52.875 --> 00:27:01.278 I had this just moment of like,"Oh my God, it- It was really impactful, 00:27:01.409 --> 00:27:02.939 that means so much to me. 00:27:03.108 --> 00:27:06.729 I had that line quite early on, and I knew that that's where we were gonna go. 00:27:07.148 --> 00:27:10.048 And I, I don't remem- like, as in I should remember it as... 00:27:10.278 --> 00:27:12.159 I should just use that to describe Sophie. 00:27:12.159 --> 00:27:19.298 You know, in the elevator pitch, I should just say,"You'll never meet someone who tries so hard to be happy by being kind,"'cause that's exactly who she is. 00:27:19.638 --> 00:27:23.808 Um, and I guess you're just lucky as a writer when those little lines float into your head 00:27:24.303 --> 00:27:28.472 Where do you fall on the, don't meet your heroes or do meet your heroes debate? 00:27:29.025 --> 00:27:31.474 Oh, do meet them because I'll tell you why. 00:27:32.194 --> 00:27:39.025 If they, if they disappoint you, well, as in they'll either be more wonderful than you ever could have imagined. 00:27:39.035 --> 00:27:42.515 That's what happened to me when I met all of my heroes out of Sorrows. 00:27:42.555 --> 00:27:49.255 Every single one of them was more incredible than I had even dreamed them up to be in my mind, or they'll let you down and you're free. 00:27:49.545 --> 00:27:51.174 You don't have to admire them anymore. 00:27:51.295 --> 00:27:51.855 Do you know what I mean? 00:27:51.904 --> 00:27:54.414 You'll be kind of released from your adoration. 00:27:54.664 --> 00:27:55.224 But there was... 00:27:55.275 --> 00:27:58.065 Someone told me yesterday, there's a quote from Dr. 00:27:58.065 --> 00:28:00.694 Johnson saying that the only novelist... 00:28:00.734 --> 00:28:08.204 If a novelist raises admiration in you through his work, in real life, he will raise disgust in you, so you should never meet them. 00:28:08.234 --> 00:28:10.865 But meet any author you don't care about, you can meet them. 00:28:10.924 --> 00:28:11.505 It's fine. 00:28:11.744 --> 00:28:18.154 Which I can kind of understand,'cause maybe if you didn't have the moment that you wanted with this author, you'd be gutted. 00:28:18.154 --> 00:28:24.035 You know, if this author means so much to you, and then they're kind of crisp or a bit cold with you when you meet them, that would be heartbreaking 00:28:24.377 --> 00:28:24.827 Yeah. 00:28:24.998 --> 00:28:32.218 Is there anyone, in line with that, it doesn't have to be an author, that, that you would be trepidatious to meet? 00:28:32.428 --> 00:28:33.827 Probably not after what you just said. 00:28:34.458 --> 00:28:36.127 I don't mean trepidatious like scared, but- 00:28:37.018 --> 00:28:42.337 Well, I mean, no, maybe if, yeah, maybe if she was still alive, Nancy Mitford,'cause I've had such a passionate parasocial relationship with her for so long. 00:28:42.607 --> 00:28:50.397 But I can im- even though she's brilliant and funny, I can imagine her being kind of cruel and imperious in real life, and I maybe wouldn't wanna get near that. 00:28:50.867 --> 00:28:53.788 So I think I would choose to admire her from a distance 00:28:54.776 --> 00:29:07.903 Yeah, and I get it from the different angle'cause I've had actors that we've worked with that it's a similar thing, where what's projected is to everyone, oh my God, charming, lovely, and then it's quite the opposite 00:29:08.692 --> 00:29:08.893 Mm-hmm. 00:29:08.932 --> 00:29:11.752

Comedians also are sometimes not funny in real life. 00:29:12.012 --> 00:29:16.542 But I think, don't you think that that's a response to the demand that's on them to be funny? 00:29:16.553 --> 00:29:24.353 Like, particularly with that more than anything, like no one goes up to a model and is like,"Be beautiful, be beautiful." But they'll go up to a comedian and be like,"Say something funny. 00:29:24.512 --> 00:29:27.093 Say something funny." And of course that's gonna close you down. 00:29:27.093 --> 00:29:30.262 Like, you're not a performing monkey, but that's how you're sort of made to feel. 00:29:30.472 --> 00:29:34.932 I think with writers we're just lucky'cause we do it in private, so no one's gonna be like,"Write something right now and let me 00:29:35.163 --> 00:29:36.262 Yeah, right Right. 00:29:36.772 --> 00:29:47.012 But I also feel like comedians are their own kind of group because so many of them are so damaged anyway, and that's what so much of their comedy is coming from because they're so kind of tortured. 00:29:47.128 --> 00:29:54.108 But I'll tell you what I learned actually, and someone described it to me, and then another author described it to me, and then I realized, oh yeah, that's exactly what you do. 00:29:54.519 --> 00:29:55.868 So you're doing a literary event. 00:29:55.878 --> 00:29:56.818 You've written this book. 00:29:56.828 --> 00:29:59.499 To some extent it will involve you and your life. 00:29:59.888 --> 00:30:03.578 You know, there'll be something of your heart in it, and you'll go on stage. 00:30:04.288 --> 00:30:17.419 To make people laugh, you'll unpack all of your stories, and some of them are traumatic, and maybe in my case I'll talk about the sect for 20 minutes, and I'll try and make it funny to make the event engaging, and everybody takes away what they want from that. 00:30:17.729 --> 00:30:19.058 And then the event ends. 00:30:19.058 --> 00:30:20.148 You've had this connection. 00:30:20.159 --> 00:30:27.808 You go back to a shitty Marriott and try and put all of your trauma back away again while gnawing on some hideous protein bar. 00:30:28.058 --> 00:30:38.939 And then in my case, everybody I love is asleep'cause I'm on the other side of the world, and it is so lonely, and so, you know, bizarrely sort of like disparate. 00:30:38.939 --> 00:30:45.598 Like the one, the under the lights 45 minutes ago you feel like, you know, the king of everything, and then you're alone in this hotel. 00:30:45.898 --> 00:30:54.009 And it's just like, that's why you can't do it all the time because, you know, so if someone comes up to you and wants to connect with you, you're like,"I just, I just did that yesterday. 00:30:54.009 --> 00:31:04.388 I have to turn inward and kind of be interior, and I can't just be almost, as it were, giving this stuff away for free." Like, if there's gonna be enough to be on stage, I've got to protect myself the rest of the time 00:31:04.449 --> 00:31:04.808 Yeah. 00:31:05.148 --> 00:31:05.548 Yeah. 00:31:05.729 --> 00:31:06.598 No, I get that. 00:31:06.925 --> 00:31:10.306 And comedians surely unpack their trauma more than anybody else, you know? 00:31:10.346 --> 00:31:13.365 Plus with the very high-wire act of trying to make people laugh. 00:31:13.385 --> 00:31:18.675 Like, if I make people laugh on stage, that's really just a bonus, but no one's demanding it from me. 00:31:18.685 --> 00:31:20.016 Like, you don't get heckled. 00:31:20.395 --> 00:31:23.195 Like, stand-up comedy, I mean, is there anything harder? 00:31:23.256 --> 00:31:25.316 It's probably why we all have bad dreams about it 00:31:25.798 --> 00:31:26.147 Yeah. 00:31:26.188 --> 00:31:26.698 No, you're right. 00:31:26.708 --> 00:31:28.488 You're, you're 100% right. 00:31:28.718 --> 00:31:34.667 I think it's an asset though, for you, and there are certain authors, you know, Ann Patchett, Kathryn Newman. 00:31:34.678 --> 00:31:43.738 You're all kind of writers who are incredibly gregarious and incredibly charming, so that is an asset. 00:31:43.778 --> 00:31:44.198 You know what I mean? 00:31:44.208 --> 00:31:49.788 You will, you, you more than likely will be on that stage and make somebody laugh by something you'll say just by who you are. 00:31:49.988 --> 00:32:07.127 But it's also another thing why I think that you are the people that so many people generate to because they recognize something in you as a person and as a writer that kind of creates that own parasocial relationship for them towards you, if that makes sense 00:32:07.414 --> 00:32:10.884 well, I mean, maybe, and they're very welcome to do that, you know? 00:32:10.924 --> 00:32:24.164 But I think, I think'cause I'm sometimes asked, like,"How do you mix humor and pathos?" And I'm like,"Exactly the same way that you do." You know, everybody, if you're telling me a sad story, will make a joke during the recounting of that sad story. 00:32:24.164 --> 00:32:26.424 And the sadder the story, the better the joke will be. 00:32:26.704 --> 00:32:31.565 And you do it because you want this to be bearable to yourself, and you wanna be engaged with me. 00:32:31.765 --> 00:32:37.595 And the only difference in my case is that I write it down and try and make it sound truthful, but that's what humans do. 00:32:37.694 --> 00:32:40.464 So I'm no more amazing than anyone else. 00:32:40.474 --> 00:32:45.035 Like I can't even, you know, sort of stress that enough. 00:32:45.055 --> 00:32:50.575 It's just that I can do it on paper, and so it's sort of recorded, and it's there, and it's accessible. 00:32:50.575 --> 00:32:53.384 But people are tossing off amazing jokes all day long. 00:32:53.585 --> 00:32:54.115 Everybody. 00:32:54.144 --> 00:32:55.115 We all are doing it 00:32:55.230 --> 00:32:56.641 Writers, they're just like us. 00:32:57.050 --> 00:32:57.540 Um, 00:33:05.123 --> 00:33:05.173 bodies 00:33:05.815 --> 00:33:09.525 Is there anything you're reading, like, while you're doing all the tour and everything else

that you're loving? 00:33:10.535 --> 00:33:15.644 Oh my gosh, I have never been in more of a reading desert in my life. 00:33:16.005 --> 00:33:28.805 But I think it's because I came off the back of The writing experience is very intense, and I can read fiction when I'm writing, but only if the person's dead, because I just can't deal with a contemporary novelist in my head when I'm trying to write contemporary fiction. 00:33:28.805 --> 00:33:31.295 Plus, if they're doing really, really well, I don't need to know that. 00:33:31.295 --> 00:33:31.994 Do you know what I mean? 00:33:32.454 --> 00:33:34.825 And so they have to, they have to pause. 00:33:34.825 --> 00:33:40.444 And then I read Middlemarch in this weird fallow period between finishing your novel and the novel actually. 00:33:40.444 --> 00:33:52.585 There's, like, months and months and months while it's sort of in production, and then you've got more months until it comes out, and then And I just haven't picked anything up from Middlemarch, since Middlemarch, that's moved me to that extent. 00:33:52.585 --> 00:34:02.005 And I waited, not intentionally, but to 48 to read that book for the first time, and it was so earth-shatteringly incredible that I'm kind of like, I think I've quit fiction now. 00:34:02.005 --> 00:34:04.545 I'm just gonna read Middlemarch over and over and over again. 00:34:04.855 --> 00:34:18.244 But I was in Bath, the town of Bath, not the actual bath, yesterday, and there's a beautiful bookstore there that I'm sure you know called Persephone, which prints its own editions of books by women that have been sort of lost to time. 00:34:18.244 --> 00:34:20.195 They've got these beautiful silver covers. 00:34:20.844 --> 00:34:24.394 And I bought a book called Cheerful Weather for the Wedding. 00:34:24.405 --> 00:34:25.355 I think it's Cheerful. 00:34:25.355 --> 00:34:28.255 We should check that, pop that in the show notes, by Julia Strachey. 00:34:28.255 --> 00:34:31.614 I think it's from the 1930s, and I think it's gonna get me there. 00:34:31.675 --> 00:34:33.065 I think it's gonna break the drought. 00:34:33.315 --> 00:34:45.614 So I read it on the plane, and there was, I mean, the most amazing description of a man shaking salt onto his plate that has ever been put into writing by any human, and will always remain thus 00:34:45.896 --> 00:34:50.387 Okay, we'll check it. 00:34:50.387 --> 00:34:51.206 Well, Meg, you were delightful. 00:34:51.217 --> 00:34:52.867 The book is fantastic. 00:34:52.876 --> 00:34:54.586 I don't know why I'm holding it up'cause this is audio. 00:34:54.586 --> 00:34:55.927 I'm holding it for you to see your own book. 00:34:56.509 --> 00:35:01.969 I literally said to you,"Can we not film this because I look like such a mess?" It's the end of a very long week of Book Tour. 00:35:01.969 --> 00:35:03.798 It's like Friday afternoon at 6:00 PM. 00:35:04.048 --> 00:35:09.268 My head is almost resting on my desk at this point, but it's just been so nice to chat, just no one needs to see it. 00:35:09.759 --> 00:35:14.668 Ultimate how the sausage is made, so you're very, very kind to let me be audio only 00:35:15.275 --> 00:35:17.304 Whatever you need, Meg, I'm here for you. 00:35:17.744 --> 00:35:21.065 Well, thank you again, and, I hope you have a wonderful weekend 00:35:21.105 --> 00:35:21.965 Thank you. 00:35:22.184 --> 00:35:24.074 And we'll meet one day in real life. 00:35:24.130 --> 00:35:25.010 Lovely to chat. 00:35:25.077 --> 00:35:25.467 You too. 00:35:25.556 --> 00:35:26.077 Talk soon. 00:35:27.411 --> 00:35:28.271 Thank you again, Meg. 00:35:28.481 --> 00:35:35.690 And if you liked this conversation or other conversations you've heard on Behind the Stack, please consider liking and subscribing so that you never miss an episode. 00:35:36.121 --> 00:35:44.701 Also, what would be really helpful to me is if you can like and give this show five stars on your podcast platform of choice. 00:35:44.710 --> 00:35:46.150 That would be really helpful. 00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:51.150 And if you have the time, what would be incredibly amazing is if you could leave a review as well. 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.971 All of these things help new people find the podcast so I can continue to bring you conversations like this one. 00:35:58.291 --> 00:36:01.121 I will be back with another episode next week. 00:36:01.331 --> 00:36:08.710 In the meantime, you can always find me on Instagram, Substack, and YouTube at Brett's Book Stack. 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:10.670 And as always, thanks for listening