התמלול המלא של Lifestyle Support for Complex Pets

00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:19.600 It's actually called the Hot Flesh, uh, which I thought appropriate for my parametapazal rage. 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:26.959 Um, it's also made with blanco tequila, lime juice, orange juice, muddled jalapenos, and a tahine rim. 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:28.959 What about you, Elise and Ursa? 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:30.079 What are y'all drinking? 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:33.120 Well, it's, you know, morning here. 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:36.160 So I couldn't do the whole bus thing. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.439 So I have a mocktail. 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:38.879 I decided, I couldn't decide. 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:44.319 I was like, should I be on theme and make a really complex one, or should be also on theme by making complexity simple? 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:48.639 So I just went with this lovely hibiscus ginger beer. 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:49.040 Oh, pretty. 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:56.240 Rimmed with a salty hibiscus combination and um crushed ice and a little bit of lime. 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:56.800 That looks like it's a little bit. 00:04:56.879 --> 00:04:57.920 Oh my gosh, that's amazing. 00:04:58.160 --> 00:04:58.639 It has no name. 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.399 I'm just gonna call it the Wednesday morning. 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:00.959 Perfect. 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.839 And save it for tonight, and you can have the Wednesday night with some vodka in it. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:06.160 Yeah. 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:06.399 Yeah. 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:08.240 Or tequila, since that's the theme. 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:08.560 Yeah. 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:09.360 But evidently. 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.560 Sounds great. 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:12.399 What about you, Ursa? 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.879 You know, I'm gonna be the boring one today uh because it is morning. 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.720 Um, I am drinking a double espresso with oat milk. 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.759 Um, but it's out of my favorite mug. 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:24.720 It inspires me. 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.240 It says the hell I won't. 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.279 So that's the energy I'm gonna bring. 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:32.079 But that's perfect. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:36.399 If I were to choose a cocktail cocktail, it would be a Corpse Survivor number two. 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:42.240 Oh, which is gin, Lilla Blanc, and lemon juice in absinthe. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.560 So delicious. 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:45.519 We'll have to try that. 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:46.879 That sounds amazing. 00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:52.160 Maybe I'll have one later in honor of the podcast when it's when it's happy hour here. 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:53.680 Yeah. 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.839 It's five o'clock anywhere sometime. 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:56.240 True. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:56.959 That is true. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:01.279 It's five o'clock anywhere sometime. 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:02.000 Sometime. 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:04.800 At any point in

time, it's five o'clock. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:08.000 Clearly, I've had too much to drink already. 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:10.639 So I want a t-shirt that's missing. 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:15.680 Oh my gosh, remember Hive Mind. 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.759 You can find all of our signature cocktail and mock tile recipes on our website. 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.160 That's behaviorbuzz.com. 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:25.600 Behaviorbuzz with a half a dozen C's. 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.800 So many Zs. 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:31.519 I'm out. 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:34.720 I can't think of any more Z words, so I just came up. 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:41.040 So let's dive into our actual conversation. 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.519 Enough fooling around you hooligans. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:45.120 Several. 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:53.439 What I would like to know, I want to start with um uh each of us kind of getting to know you guys a little bit better. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:54.160 So, Dr. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:59.920 C, how and when did you decide that you wanted to be a veterinarian and a behavior specialist? 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:03.439 I know the story, and I'm so excited for everybody else to know too. 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:06.160 I hope I remember what story I told you. 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:10.240 So to truth say a lie. 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:11.600 I know, right? 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:19.120 So I always wanted to be veterinarian as soon as I met my first veterinarian, which was an old-time country vet that saw my first dog. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.800 He did a magic trick, he saw my dog, and I was like, this is it, this is the job for me. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.439 And I was probably like, I don't know, four or something. 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:29.680 But I decided to become a veterinary behaviorist when I was 16. 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:36.639 And I remember the day I left class early because I finished a vocabulary test before everybody else, and I was bored. 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.680 And I went to the library because that's how I rolled in high school. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:44.480 That's one of the reasons everybody hated to be my parent, going to the library all the time. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:58.240 And I read a book that's very, very dated now that I wouldn't recommend from a standpoint of modern behavior, but it really tied into the what I was seeing in general practice when I was, you know, cleaning kennels like all veterinarians our age did, right? 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:01.279 And that was that behavior problems were a huge part of practice. 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.360 The clinician I worked with hated them. 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:08.800 And he worked on them very diligently, but he, you know, in the back, he was like, oh man, so many behavior things. 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:11.600 And so when I read that book, I was like, this is it. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:12.720 I'm gonna do this. 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:16.160 And then I

just never looked back, uh, probably because I'm neurodivergent. 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.199 And once I'm getting stuck on one thing, I'm like, and that's the thing, right? 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:20.480 And then I just did that. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.319 So from 16 on, it was veterinary behavior or bust. 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.199 So crazy that you knew that early on. 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:27.920 I love it. 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:29.199 It is crazy. 00:08:29.360 --> 00:08:30.240 I love it. 00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:32.559 Well, Ursa, you've done a lot in your time too. 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.080 You've done shelter behavior work, uh, behavior research with Hills. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.240 You built a training facility from the ground up. 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:43.679 And this year you were the onset trainer for the AKC's Super Bowl campaign. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:48.879 How did all of that lead you to focus now specifically on complex behavioral cases? 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.919 Man, I maybe I'm the opposite of the laser focus of Elise. 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:56.080 I like to do everything. 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.799 Um, so I've been in the field for about 25 years now. 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:10.159 And I got in because I took a puppy that I adopted uh when I moved out of my parents' house to a training class, and the trainer was like, You seem pretty good at this. 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.320 Do you want to like be my assistant? 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:17.360 And I had plans to go to school to study astrophysics. 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:20.799 Oh little left hand there. 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:21.840 Yeah. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.039 And I was like, yeah, that sounds like a fun hobby. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:27.600 And instead, it became my career. 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:33.039 So I I spent about nine years, eight and a half, nine years in shelter behavior. 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:43.120 And man, I feel like that is just the best place to, you know, experience a wide variety of behavior issues. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.480 And as we all know, shelters have very limited resources. 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:48.399 So you have to do a lot with very little, right? 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:53.679 Um, so it's almost like the worst case scenario of trying to change behavior. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:00.799 Um, so everything else in comparison just seems, I don't want to say easy because it's not, but just very less less hard. 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:03.200 Yeah, yeah, not straightforward. 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:03.679 Yeah. 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:11.120 So I just, you know, because I have uh done so many different things, I like to take opportunities, right? 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.679 Like I just love to experience different things. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:17.120 I love to learn new stuff, I love a challenge. 00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:24.559 And, you know, the the thing is I keep coming back to working with people with really severely behaviorally challenged pets. 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.519 And part of that is because I actually really like working with people. 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:31.279 So I know a lot of trainers get into the field because they're like, I want to work with dogs. 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:31.919 I hate people. 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:32.639 I hate people. 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.600 I I love working with people. 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:41.759 And when I have had phases in my career where that wasn't a part of the equation, it didn't do it for me as much. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:43.759 So, you know, having worked with Dr. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.679 Hussi now for gosh, what, six years now, five years? 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:48.799 Yeah, a long time. 00:10:48.960 --> 00:11:02.720 Um and, you know, having a lot of experience with these really complex, challenging cases that have a lot of factors and you know, the owners are kind of at their wits' end and a lot of the time feels like I'm the last stop for them. 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:05.279 Um that's so meaningful to me. 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:10.000 Like that is such an important purpose for me and and what I know. 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:20.240 And it's just the the the highest purpose that I can think of to use what I've learned and what I know is, you know, helping people that feel like they're in crisis, really. 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:26.639 So um, but yeah, and then the Super Bowl thing, I have a connection in marketing, and they were doing this campaign for the AKC. 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:27.519 This is last year. 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.320 I guess we actually filmed it on a year and a half ago. 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:33.200 And um, I was just like, yeah, of course I'll do that. 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:34.320 That sounds super fun. 00:11:34.639 --> 00:11:35.120 That's cool. 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:35.759 I love that. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:41.679 And it was and all the dogs were friendly, and I got to touch them all, which never happens, right? 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:42.720 I know. 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:51.120 So, yeah, anytime I get an opportunity like that, where it's like, oh, all the dogs want you to pet them, I'm like, yeah, I'll be there. 00:11:51.279 --> 00:11:51.840 Awesome. 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:54.480 I love that. 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.519 And you guys do come from kind of two different training paths. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:07.360 Doctors, see, you're on one side evaluating pets for medical conditions and all the things that kind of affect behavior, recommending diagnostics, evaluating their health, prescribing medications, right? 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:09.440 All the stuff that we do in the doctor world. 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.279 Well, Ursa, you're in the living room at home with everybody, right? 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.159 Teaching the dog, coaching the humans, like in the in the war zone. 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.000 How did you guys decide to build things together, right?

00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.559 And and what does that collaboration look like? 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:30.480 For me, you know, I I did some training before and during vet school. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:36.399 And then obviously I took this as direct a path as I could to becoming an animal psychiatrist. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:13:01.600 And what I found over the years is as much as I love training and behavior modification, and I love being creative with behavior modification plans, is that it just isn't the best use of the client's money and time and effort to rely on me as their dog psychiatrist to support them with the coaching they need throughout the week on the behavior modification front. 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:10.720 And I can't set up a practice that would pay my bills where I could be available to my clients in person doing their behavior modification. 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:12.559 It just isn't rational. 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:39.679 So, what I really think is the most helpful for my clients is for them to focus their time with me, not on rearranging their behavior mod, et cetera, although I do get them started with that, but instead to rely on an expert behavior consultant that knows how to work with a veterinary behaviorist, how to track behaviors, not you know, diagnosing things or prescribing meds, but knows when different meds should work, right? 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.799 That kind of thing, and knows when the client should be reaching back out. 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:55.120 So they're really my friend at the factory on helping these clients get the best results so that when clients are hiring me, I can focus on what literally nobody else can do, which is the veterinary psychiatry part of it. 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:56.159 Are we using meds? 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.360 Are we using supplements? 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.360 Have we really thoroughly evaluated diagnostics for medical problems? 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.679 Have we implemented treatment for those medical problems? 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:11.039 And if not, how can I support the family and the veterinarian to getting those things done over time, if not right away? 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:22.480 So that way when clients are spending time and effort with me, they're getting the most out of the brain that they hired and able to pair that with another brain where they're able to get the most out of what they hired with them. 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:35.120 So for me as a clinician, I really strongly feel like I hear from my clients that are working with expert behavior consultants along with a veterinary behaviorist, they feel more supported, they get faster improvements. 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:42.080 And what I always want to do in my practice is graduate these clients as soon as possible, right? 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:46.639 I am always looking for speed because that's how my brain works. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:53.679 So I really get excited when I see a patient and three months later, they're stable, ready to graduate, right? 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:56.399 So I love working with somebody like Ursa. 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:15.840 And because of that, the more I work with behavior consultants intimately with these cases, and you know, I have for a really long time, I was really noticing that there's all these things that clients really just can't learn because there's so much they're learning from scratch without having somebody hold their hands. 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:24.080 And it's not just the behavior modification, it's how to maintain a lifestyle over time with these complex pets. 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:31.039 And it's not just sort of like the emotional support and you know, do we need a human animal bond type therapy thing? 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:32.399 Like that's great, and they should have that. 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.840 That's not what I do, it's not what Ursa does, although we do provide a lot of support. 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:43.039 What they really also need help with is just the mechanics of how can I make this lifestyle work for me and work for my pet best. 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:52.080 And I just really love doing that with them because a lot of times they have accidentally made their life a lot harder than it needs to be. 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.080 And so we can come back and say, look, this is legitimately difficult, but doesn't have to be this difficult. 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:03.679 Let's backtrack and really evaluate what's going to support you as a family. 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.840 And that I just I love it so much. 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:12.879 It I can see families feeling so much better, so much more supported, and able to just take a deep breath for a long time. 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:14.799 You know, they haven't been able to for a really long time. 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.440 So that's one of the reasons that I was I've been cooking on this idea for a long time. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:24.480 And Urs and I were talking about it as we worked together for the last few years and finally we're like, let's just try it. 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:25.759 Like, what do we have to lose? 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:26.000 Right. 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:26.639 I love it. 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:27.039 Yeah. 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:28.879 But uh Amy and I completely agree. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:35.919 And I mean, that's why we've structured our practice similarly, and that that hands-on support is so, so, so important. 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.840 Um that we we just don't have the time to do. 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:44.879 Not the it's not that we don't have the knowledge or the, you know, the skill level, it's that we just don't have the time. 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:46.000 So yeah. 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:53.600 Well, and for me, it's a no-brainer in terms of like, you know, as someone who takes on cases that a lot of trainers don't want, right? 00:16:53.840 --> 00:17:00.639 Because of the

complexity, because of things that are like medical or physical factors that are complicating things. 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:06.480 And to have, you know, a vet behaviorist as part of my client's team, right? 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:16.880 Because I'm not qualified to diagnose, I'm not qualified to recommend medication, I'm not qualified to suggest diagnostics, other than like, hey, maybe you should talk to like this type of doctor. 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.039 And so to have someone that I can be like, she knows all of that. 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.319 So you should go to her and she'll take care of that side. 00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:31.519 Because if we don't get those things figured out, no amount of behavior modification is going to make much progress, right? 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:39.200 If there's a some sort of physiological complicating factor, we've got we've got to get that teased out so that we can actually get a foothold with the the B mod. 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:47.200 And so having somebody to do all that is invaluable to me as a behavior consultant. 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:47.839 Yeah. 00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:52.079 Well, let's talk about those people that you're trying to reach. 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:56.400 Um, you guys use the phrase amazing pet people with complex pets. 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:01.039 Who are your clients and what does their daily life actually look like for them? 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:24.400 So, you know, when we say amazing pet people, what we are talking about is like those devoted people who are uh dedicated to uh managing their pet's life, to trying to improve the pet's quality of life, to finding, you know, uh if not solutions, then at least ways to make things better, even though they are at the end of their rope. 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:25.119 Right. 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:31.440 I have a client who just said the other day, I'm pouring and pouring and pouring into my dog and I'm getting almost nothing back. 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:38.400 And she doesn't say that because she doesn't love her dog, she's doing it because she loves her dog, but she's also exhausted. 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.640 Yeah. 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:41.440 She's uh she's out of gas uh for this. 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:43.759 And that's someone amazing, right? 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.000 Someone who is caring for this living thing to their detriment, right? 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.759 And sacrificing a lot to make this animal's life better. 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.119 And doing so willingly. 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.960 You know, she didn't say this with bitterness. 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:56.960 She was just like, man, this is hard. 00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.279 And to me, that's someone amazing. 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:07.119 And it's not about, you know, uh what how fancy the dog food is or if they go to the dog park every day or is the best doggy daycare or whatever. 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:16.240 It's about them making these sacrifices to try to make their dog's life better and uh trying to to learn as much as they can to do it the right way, right? 00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:36.480 So, you know, uh these amazing pet people with complex pets, and you know, the complex pets are the ones with layered behavior problems that don't get better with, you know, sort of the typical approach that foundational training probably isn't gonna help, or maybe the first meds that are prescribed don't really help that much. 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:50.319 But a lot of the time daily life for them is a slog, you know, it's the same issues over and over and over again where they're just trying to keep a grip on things, or like they're trying to do their best to keep things manageable. 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.680 Uh, but a lot of the time that grip feels very tenuous. 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:54.000 Yeah. 00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:55.200 And it's exhausting. 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.880 It's mentally, emotionally, and physically exhausting to live with a pet like this. 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:09.279 So, you know, those are the kinds of people that we are trying to reach to help them understand, like, you know, like Elise said earlier, it maybe doesn't have to be this hard all the time. 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:18.559 There's probably not going to be a quick fix for the behavior problems that you're you're dealing with, but there are things that you can do to make it feel not so hard every single day. 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:19.519 Right, right. 00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.119 And it's hard for us too, right? 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.119 Like we also get frustrated. 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:24.480 We want to help them. 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:30.079 We I and I'm speaking for you guys, but I'm I'm I assume that you feel the same way. 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.000 I wish that there were like eight of me, right? 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:42.160 Like I can one of me is gonna take care of the medications and the supplements, and one of me is gonna work on the training plan, and one of me is gonna be that social emotional support, and one of me is gonna, right? 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.640 Oh, yeah, there's no, I can't, there's not that many of me. 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:57.680 And so having this uh, it takes a village, having this support system, this team to work together so that we're meeting all of those needs, medical, physical, emotional support, you know, is really an important part of this. 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.440 So, you know, that looks like what you guys are creating. 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:04.160 I want to know more about the complex pet partnership. 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.720 What is it? 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:06.240 You know, how are you meeting those needs? 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:07.680 Tell me, tell me more. 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.960 Well, what we're doing is, you know, to your point about like, I wish there were more of me. 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.680 Like in so many ways there

was sort of like doing so many of me. 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.880 But what I is just on ouch drinking. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:19.519 Yeah. 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.119 Can I just have my cocktail and I don't know, watch it's creepy. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:41.279 But um what I was noticing in practice was there was so much information that, you know, I've been doing dog behavior in some way, shape, and form since I started training dogs for the like teenage drug abuse unit when I was like 14, right? 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:47.759 Like, so you know, when you've been like doing stuff, whether you were good at it or I thought I was good at it, but I was 16, it was not that good. 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:48.160 You were good. 00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:49.359 You were pretty good. 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:55.680 Um I thought it was amazing, but you know, like many young trainers, I also just had a really amazing dog who made me look really good. 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.519 Um, but you know what? 00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.440 I all of that, you know. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:11.680 Those many years of experience, you can't deliver that information in a way that people can absorb in an appointment, even the way I do appointments, which is like every two to four weeks, right? 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.720 And get all the information you need to track the behaviors. 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.640 How are we really doing side effects? 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.519 If we're using medications, all that stuff, but you can't do it all the same time. 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:37.759 So, this program, since we've got six weeks together, we have it staged out to really help people that are managing these complex pets take the lifestyle management and systematize it so they can get it into their regular life without feeling like they're throwing spaghetti at the wall. 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:49.440 Because, you know, for people like us that have been doing this a long time, that have had complex pets ourselves and supported all different types of families, we have a lot of, you know, quote unquote wisdom, right? 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:55.759 Like so this program really allows us to support families in doing that. 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:11.359 And it's especially important for families that are either DIYing it completely or are working with maybe their GP, their general practitioner, and a trainer, but really having a hard time learning how to be the glue for their complex pet. 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.079 And that makes sense because they can't possibly know how to do that. 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.240 They really need explicit instruction. 00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:24.640 And um, the good news is that those skills are not hard to learn if you have somebody that truly loves people and knows what they are going through. 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:40.079 So our goal is to help these families find and be safe in an environment with other people that are going through the same things that is supervised and encouraged by experts. 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.960 So they're not running off into scary forests, right? 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:58.000 Because that's really, really common for our clients because they're going down every possible rabbit hole that they can find to solve these problems and really setting them up so that, you know, hopefully their pet is getting better and then their lives together can just be more fun. 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:18.400 Because it's one of the things that I see as a clinician is that because the situations are so high stakes, is that clients come to every interaction and everything they think about with so much pressure and fear of failure and even feeling like for sure it's gonna fail, like not even fear of failure, but deterministic will fail. 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:20.000 I don't even know why I'm trying. 00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:30.240 So giving them a space to feel safe and then learn that they can make things simpler and lighten up and have fun, and that that can actually improve their success rates. 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:39.119 But it's really impossible to do that level of in-depth coaching in appointments and then also do the regular work that we're supposed to do. 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:40.160 It's so true. 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:48.880 And and like we had a client this week, it was our first recheck, but she was just like I mean, she was just so profoundly like overwhelmed about everything. 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.640 But she was like, you know, the biggest thing that you gave me is you didn't blame me for this. 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:58.240 100% because she had been blamed before, like, and so it's like I really appreciate that. 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.920 Like, that is yeah, you know, if we can provide that for you, that's awesome. 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:02.480 That's half. 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:11.759 It always makes me so sad because I hear clients say, Oh, my vet or my past trainer or whatever made me feel like this is my fault. 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:20.720 And whether or not, like I know that sometimes clients hear what they want to hear, and sometimes it's not exactly verbatim, but regardless, they felt that, right? 00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.039 So whatever happened between them and that other provider, they felt blamed. 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:36.480 And it always makes me so sad because I understand that feeling, like as a parent, as a you know, a dog parent, just a human that was raised by heathens but still somehow has a lot of Catholic guilt. 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.119 Uh I I totally empathize with that. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:47.680 And, you know, I think probably my number one goal is for my clients to feel supported, not blamed. 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.319 Yeah, right. 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:54.240 Like I am not going to make them feel guilty because they're here working with us. 00:25:54.480 --> 00:26:00.240 Like that is such a small elite percentage of

pet parents, right, that seek this kind of help. 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.279 Like you're already doing the most, right? 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:09.839 And just because you haven't always done it right, like you're getting better as you learn more, and that is something to be celebrated, right? 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.720 And recognized. 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.759 So like they they feel like they're failing, right? 00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:22.319 And so, I mean, other than maybe they misheard, or maybe they truly were told um that it was their blame, where do you think that shame comes from? 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:27.279 And like, how do you guys address that before you even start teaching the dog anything? 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.240 Pressure. 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:39.119 I mean, I think we hear all of this messaging about what pet ownership is supposed to look like and what it's supposed to be like, and we hear it from social media and we hear it from our families and our friends. 00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:44.240 I I have this image in my head all the time, and I can't remember who to attribute it to. 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:45.759 Someday I'll find it again. 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.240 But it was uh an image of a bell curve, right? 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.880 So, like, you know, big peak in the middle. 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:56.480 And it was like on one side of the bell curve are dogs that don't like any other dogs, right? 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.759 And then on the other side of the bell curve are dogs that like every dog they meet. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.319 And the vast majority are here in the middle. 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:04.960 But and they're selective, just like humans, right? 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:06.880 They choose who they want to spend their time with. 00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:11.599 But we, the ones we see in public are the ones that like every other dog, right? 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:17.759 Those are the ones that people take out into the world, and that's what we see, and that's what we assume every dog is supposed to be like. 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:18.400 Yeah, right. 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.240 That those dogs that are just social butterflies, happy to be here, love everyone. 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:35.119 And I think that pressure that is put on us by this pet, you know, centric society that we live in creates the guilt when our dog can't go to the dog park, when they can't go sit at the brewery, when they can't meet everybody that comes into the home. 00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:39.359 We feel like, oh, we've failed because look at all these dogs that are friendly and mine's not. 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:39.680 Yeah. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:40.319 Yeah. 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:46.160 To me, I I I see a lot of a parallel between that and parenting human children, right? 00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:46.720 Totally. 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:50.240 And especially, are we all parents? 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:51.279 Are you guys both parents? 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:51.599 Yeah. 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:52.000 Uh-huh. 00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:52.480 Okay. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:52.960 Yeah. 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.759 So, right, and especially as mothers, I feel like. 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:56.160 Yeah. 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.079 Historically, mom guilt. 00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:59.839 There's so much mom guilt. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:02.000 It's to me, it's not dissimilar. 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:02.480 Yeah. 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:02.799 Right. 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:04.480 I would exactly agree. 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:06.880 Because our kids are on that spectrum too, right? 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:13.920 It's like some are perfect angels, perfection from the get-go, most in the middle. 00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:19.200 And then other ones, you know, whether it be due to like neurodivergency or you know, other issues. 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:20.240 They're having a bad day. 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:21.359 Yeah, they're having a bad day. 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:22.480 They're being humans. 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:22.960 Yeah. 00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:25.039 Yeah, but there's so much judginess. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.359 It's like if our kids aren't perfect, that reflects on what we did as a parent. 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:29.599 Right. 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.240 And, you know, I think we get the same with our pets. 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:37.519 Like, I, you know, I just see so much on social media of next door is a great example, right? 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.079 Oh gosh, yeah. 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:44.720 And it's kind of a cesspool, but I'll see please on next door from people that are like, please, can we not do fireworks? 00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:46.880 My dog is terrified of fireworks. 00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:48.799 Could everybody please tone down the fireworks? 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:53.440 And inevitably there will be comments about like, well, it's your fault for not training your dog. 00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:55.759 And it's like, it's not like that. 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.960 It's not that simple. 00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:57.519 Yeah. 00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:58.640 I wish it was. 00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.680 Man, so I know. 00:28:59.920 --> 00:29:00.400 I wish it was. 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:10.240 I think that's one of the things that we spend time on in the very beginning of our um work with Complex Pet Partnership when people first join is the first week or two. 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:20.079 We're really spending time kind of clear, I mean, it sounds really woo, but like cleaning the space up, getting not just the mental space, but yes, that, but also just the environment. 00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.400 Like how much stuff do you have that when you look at it makes you feel crappy, right? 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:29.440 Stuff that you've tried before, you got a big pile of it, it's dusty, it's gross, covered in dog hair. 00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.000 And whenever you look at

it, you remember a really bad time. 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.279 Like we just go through and we just get rid of all of that crap, right? 00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:36.559 We reorganize it. 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.079 Like get it out of there, right? 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:43.200 Take pictures of anything so that if you need to show it to a practitioner, they know what you had, right? 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:45.920 Because that's so helpful for us because clients don't always know what it was. 00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.799 They're like, oh, I had this thing and I don't know, it looked like this, right? 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:54.640 So take pictures of it and you know, we talk to people about how to organize it, depending on how that works for them. 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.759 And we do the same for any medications or supplements. 00:29:57.920 --> 00:29:58.880 Let's get pictures of it. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:00.799 Let's make sure we know what doses you tried. 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.960 If you remember, take a picture of the label. 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:04.240 How are we going to organize it? 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:07.599 And now, if you are not using it, how are we going to get rid of it? 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:15.680 Then we go through things like, hey, is there anything that you might feel you would lose if this got better? 00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:16.319 Right? 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:20.480 Like, is there any part of you that's a um being served by this problem? 00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:23.759 Because it's not meant to be like, uh, well, no wonder. 00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:25.359 It's not a gotcha. 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:34.400 It's just like, let's just admit, like sometimes there are reasons that we aren't able to do the stuff that's in front of us as far as a task. 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:41.519 And the problem or the concern is actually a lot more interesting than we might have given it credit for. 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.720 And it's worth just like digging into that a little bit. 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.640 So we do a lot of just clearing out some space before we even get started. 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:51.920 Okay, now how are we gonna make a system that works for you? 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:54.480 Is that Marshall? 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:56.799 Oh my God, I was just gonna say that. 00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.960 You cut into my you cut into my new my little quid. 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:19.119 So I was gonna say this could revolutionize the way we treat our pets because my dog is gated out of my room right now so that he doesn't become a clusterfuck in the middle of this interview, and he is staring at me, whining to get in the room so he can climb in my lap, which he can't do because he'll totally f up the microphone and everything. 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:21.839 So he's just sitting there going, I know he doesn't have to go out. 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.720 I let him out literally right before this this uh podcast. 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:28.559 And he's just like, me so much. 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.279 Oh my god. 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.599 So anyway, back to the interview. 00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.240 Does anybody want a 95-pound 10-year-old Pipple? 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:43.599 Because he's he's free. 00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:44.559 He's free silent. 00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:45.519 He's free. 00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:50.640 It's like I threw a shoe at him earlier to like just like do anything. 00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:52.720 Yeah, like stop. 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:54.480 And he's like, nope, I don't care. 00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.279 You can throw whatever. 00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:57.359 Throw a weight at me, shoot me with a gun. 00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:57.839 I don't care. 00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:01.039 Step on my neck. 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.279 Sorry so much on the movie. 00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:20.799 So you guys, you guys, the the guests on the show, you people are both clear that this program is coaching, yeah, not Marshall, um, is coaching and education, not veterinary behavior treatment. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:22.720 Why is that line so important? 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.920 You know, why do we want to differentiate between those two categories? 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:32.319 And how do you help people that you are helping understand what falls on each side of that? 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:36.319 Well, for one thing, we can't establish a VCPR this way. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:37.440 So, you know, Dr. 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:43.680 C doesn't have a veterinary client patient relationship with these folks, so she can't prescribe and treat, right? 00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:45.359 So that's off the table. 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:53.039 And then, you know, from my perspective, we're gonna have a really diverse group of people in terms of what behavior issues they're dealing with. 00:32:53.279 --> 00:33:12.160 And so even though I think that, you know, a lot of the time we can do things that help a wide range of behavior issues, we can't really dig down into the specifics if like someone shows up with a dog with resource guarding and one has intra-household aggression, and one has screaming reactivity, and you know, those are all going to be treated somewhat differently. 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:17.920 And so we're not here for that because that would really get us into the weeds and it wouldn't be helping everyone in the group, right? 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:19.039 It's a different program. 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:20.079 It's a different program. 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:21.359 Yeah, exactly. 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:41.359 Um it's about strengthening their relationship with their dog, teaching them how to advocate, teaching them how to get all of their providers and their team on board and working together so that they have all the scaffolding that they need to be successful with these behavior issues that they're dealing with, right? 00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:48.880 We know what it's

like, both firsthand and secondhand, through all of our clients to live with pets with behavior issues. 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:54.640 And, you know, again, we have tools that we can provide people to make it suck less, right? 00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:20.320 So that it doesn't have to be as hard and help them challenge their assumptions about what they think they have to be doing or what they should be doing, and really get down to like what's helpful to be doing, what makes their life better, what makes their dog's life better, aside from directly treating these behavior issues, like what is going to make living with your pet a little more joyful and a little less overwhelming and frustrating. 00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:25.360 So that's the piece that we're here for that I think historically has been really neglected. 00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:33.920 You know, it's it's a slog and it's expected to be a slog and you're expected just to, I guess, do it and not feel the way about it, right? 00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:35.679 Right again, just like parenting. 00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:38.079 It's like, well, you have to do it, so suck it up, right? 00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:42.000 And and like we're here to tell people you don't have to suck it up. 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.239 Like it's okay to acknowledge that it sucks. 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.679 It's okay to acknowledge that it's hard. 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.119 It's okay to acknowledge I'm pouring into my dog and I'm not getting anything back. 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.039 Like those are real feelings. 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:57.199 And the more you stuff them inside the box and ignore them, like you're not doing anybody a service doing that. 00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.639 Like it's okay to acknowledge that. 00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:08.079 And it's not just about feelings, it's also about actionable things that you can do to again just make things get down to what's actually helping you. 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:08.480 Yeah. 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.119 Yeah. 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:25.039 And like we even spend time, I know you guys have talked about this on the podcast before, making sure that people are able to evaluate like who are the people in their lives that talking about this situation with is gonna help them, bring them energy, bring them support. 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:27.679 And who is not a good call, right? 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:46.000 And giving family scripts, people scripts about how to manage those people who really just are not good for that client to deal with with their pet and working through the negotiations of social uh situations so that they just like they're so they feel like they have a plan, they're not alone with it, they can practice it. 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:57.119 And again, just every place we can think of how can we make this easier and more systematized so that it's like you get in the car, you put on your seatbelt, you just do it, you don't think about it because you have practice and you know how to do it now. 00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.639 You don't feel like you're just fluttering in the wind trying to find an answer. 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:01.519 That's great. 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.840 I love that they must feel so supported. 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:05.519 This is wonderful. 00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:09.599 And now you guys have actually built some tools too for this program. 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.400 So walk us through some of the ones you're most proud of. 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:13.519 Oh my gosh. 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.440 Uh we can't stop making stuff. 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:19.360 I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, I had a thing. 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:20.320 We gotta do this. 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:29.280 The things that, you know, the thing that I focus on a lot when we actually the the first thing that we created is called a behavior care tracker. 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:30.239 And it's on my website. 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.239 You can get like the simpler version. 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:33.440 It's free, right? 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:37.280 We have a more complex version that we use in the complex pet partnership. 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:51.840 My goal was, and we'll have better ways of doing this in the future too, but clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pet best. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:37:06.000 And a lot of times, if their general practitioner is managing their medications and supplements and diet and all that stuff, their general practitioner also doesn't know what they need to ask to change a plan, right? 00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:07.039 And have it move forward. 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.400 Like making a first step plan for a behavior case is not hard. 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:16.639 It's when things are not working well enough or there's side effects that people get lost, right? 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:19.199 Well, that happens pretty quickly unless you have an easy case, right? 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:40.960 So we made a behavior care plan tracker so that we could solve the problem of people getting concise information to their care team in real time and having their care team connected in real time versus I go to see my behavior consultant, they tell me something, then I talk to my vet, I tell them what the behavior consultant said, then I tell my behavior consultant what the vet said. 00:37:41.119 --> 00:37:58.800 The client who's not prepared to be the middle person is now the new person, and they're delivering information to two different professionals, and those professionals are relying on what the clients think they heard, which we know isn't always accurate because they can't possibly remember everything, right? 00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:16.239 So the care plan tracker allows everybody on the care team to connect in real time about what behaviors are we working on, what medication,

supplements, diets are we using, and to, and the more complex version also tracks how behaviors are changing over time as we change medications and treatments. 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:28.000 So that one for me is the basics of what I'm trying to create longer term in an easier-to-do format as we get more and more um technologically advanced. 00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.079 You know, by me, I mean me, right? 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:34.159 So that is so helpful for me. 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.639 It it's it works best for clients who are willing to do a spreadsheet because right now it's in a spreadsheet. 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:46.320 But long term, it won't have to be because we'll be able to use more conversational approaches to get the data organized and um systematized for everybody to see. 00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:51.199 The other one that I really love is this time energy tracker. 00:38:51.280 --> 00:39:03.199 And what it does is it helps clients go through their days with their pets and in different increments of time, depending on the client, marking down like, hey, what is it that I'm doing or that my animal's doing? 00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.679 And is that giving me energy or taking energy from me or is it neutral? 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:11.440 And is it looking like something my pet is excited and happy to do? 00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:14.719 Is it neutral for them, or is it actually a problem for them? 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:15.039 Right. 00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.480 And then we compare, right? 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:22.480 If we've got lots of reds, like I'm red and my dog is red, is that something that we have to do? 00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:22.960 Right. 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:24.639 Do we have to do that? 00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:27.280 A lot of times we don't, right? 00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:44.880 But because these families are very intense, high ethics, very concerned and supportive of their animal's quality of life, they are literally going through a checklist of like 50 things that amazing pet people do, but they're actually not things that amazing pet people need to do. 00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.199 What they are is a list of things. 00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:55.679 So that time energy approach really allows people to see visually and to critically evaluate what's actually working for both of them. 00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.840 Because again, that's where we can make things simpler because accidentally it might be making their lives harder. 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:05.840 One of my favorite moments as a behavior consultant is when I can say to my client, like, do you want to just not do that? 00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:07.440 And you're like, oh my God. 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:07.760 Yeah. 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.840 Like the permission to not walk. 00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.159 Can I not do that? 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:16.239 Can I not introduce the dog to my entire family when they come visit for the holidays? 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:18.400 Like, I cannot do that. 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:22.320 Yeah, exactly. 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:23.199 Yeah, yeah. 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:25.360 I have a couple favorite tools too. 00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.800 Um, mine are a little more like soft skills. 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:42.159 I love um when clients are willing to track data because I do think it helps keep things clean and objective to some degree, um, which helps with especially if we need to troubleshoot a behavior plan, that can be super, super helpful. 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:47.920 But I also really love tools that help the human in moments when they're struggling. 00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.000 And one of my favorites that we put together is what we call our hard day first aid kit. 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:59.360 And it's basically like a little graphic with a first aid kit for when you're having a really bad day with your dog. 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:02.400 And so it's like, what can you do to stop the bleeding? 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:05.280 What can you do to treat the wound? 00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.800 What can you do, you know, to start healing? 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.239 And they can kind of just pick what they need right then. 00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:21.760 So it's not about like adding another thing to their list, it's not about making any progress or changing anything with their behavior plan. 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:28.079 It's just about like, what do you need today to make things just feel a little bit better, to stop the bleeding, right? 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:40.960 And I really like that because sometimes I think people get so just overwhelmed that they don't think about like pausing for a moment and giving themselves a little like first aid, basically. 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:49.360 Um, and then it get, you know, if they do that for long enough, it gets to the point where they're they can't, you know, they they can't, it's it's too big for that now. 00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:49.840 Yeah. 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:57.440 So, you know, our goal is to help clients use this as needed all the time so that they can sustain their efforts. 00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:03.039 So you can recover because like these, these managing these guys, there's so many peaks and valleys, right? 00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:13.519 And so it this the constant emotional roller coaster without a plan for the human to recover is a huge potential negative prognostic indicator. 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:19.039 So we just tell them slap this sucker on your fridge or someplace where you'll see it if you need it. 00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.719 And you can just pick from this menu of things that will help you recover. 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:31.199 And during the course, we you know walk through for people as individuals, like, hey, you know, they don't have to share anything they don't want to with us, but like, hey, as you're looking at this, is there anything that feels like it would work for you? 00:42:31.360 -->

00:42:36.079 Circle it, you know, like so it's easy to find when you're feeling really emotionally dysregulated. 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:36.719 Yeah. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:41.679 The other one that I really like is one that we call the advocacy compass. 00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:58.000 And it's basically like a little script for clients when they feel like they are being dismissed or not being heard, or they're not exactly sure how to speak up for themselves or for their dog. 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:04.960 And so it's sort of like, hey, if you disagree or you feel uncertain about something, like here's some things that you can say. 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:07.679 When you feel dismissed, hear some things that you can say. 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:09.840 When you need more information, here's some things. 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:20.559 So it's helpful for folks who either might be feeling unsure or might be conflict averse, where it's like, I don't want to say something that's gonna make somebody upset. 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:31.760 It gives them a little bit of confidence to advocate for themselves and their dog with their providers in a way that is collaborative, not you know, defensive or prickly. 00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:38.159 And I think that can really help for them not just to see some examples of what they can say, but to know that it's okay to do that, right? 00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:44.159 Like you can speak up for yourself and your dog in a way that doesn't make things feel worse, right? 00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:44.719 Yeah. 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:48.480 And we can like we talk about how to make an emergency kit for your dog and stuff like that too. 00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:52.559 Like you can keep that little affixy script, the the compass, in your emergency kit. 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:55.599 So you can take it with you if you needed to. 00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:59.599 Any place you're going with your dog, just laminate it, take it with you, and you'd be like, okay, I'm in my car. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:00.960 I'm going into my vet. 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:01.760 I'm stressed out. 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:04.000 Like I'm not sure my vet really gets what I'm dealing with. 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:06.639 I'm going to just review these techniques. 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:07.920 It's right here in the bag. 00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:09.679 I'm in my go bag for my dog, right? 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.000 So if you don't own a laminator, you can take a picture of it on your phone. 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:18.480 I could just bring it into the 21st century. 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:25.360 If I didn't have books piled on it, I would show you the fact that I have laminating sheets on my desk right now. 00:44:27.920 --> 00:44:32.239 Because I have my phone to take pictures with right here in my hand. 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:35.440 Always with me. 00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:43.280 So I love how organized and supportive all of these things are and really accessible, right? 00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.519 That's a buzzword, but also a really important focus. 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:53.599 One of your side quests is to help neurodivergent individuals care for their complex pets. 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:57.119 Tell us more about how we're able to do that. 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:03.360 Well, I mean, I I am surrounded by neurodivergent people and M1. 00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:08.480 So when I and I, you know, advocate for some neurodivergent kids. 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:15.360 And what I have noticed is one, I really love that, which is not surprising because I do the work that I do, right? 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:29.119 And if you are working in both of those zones, you'll very quickly see a lot of crossover between managing a complex pet and living with neurodivergent people and being a neurodivergent person. 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:46.639 Like environment, we talk about, you know, Urs and I talk about this in um in our own practices, um, you know, how we're setting up environmental accommodations, how we are teaching coping strategies, all things that people that are neurodivergent, if they've had the the privilege of having some support, are familiar with. 00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:51.760 So I just happen to really love uh working with people that are neurodivergent. 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.519 Like the other day I had a client that was texting in and it was just coming off like really rude. 00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.280 I was like, why is she being so spicy? 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:03.519 And I was like, I wonder if this is just like a really direct person, right? 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:11.039 And darn soon we got to the appointment and it was like, yes, three minutes and 30 seconds ago, my dog did blah blah blah. 00:46:11.119 --> 00:46:12.159 It's like, ah, right? 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:20.400 You know, like so so, and then for me, it was so much easier to be like, all right, this is this not client, is not trying to be mean. 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:25.599 Like she's just really upset that actually this process that I asked her to do is very inconvenient and kind of a pain in the ass. 00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:26.719 And I was like, you know what? 00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:30.800 You're right, it is a pain in the ass, and it's been on my list of fix for like 20 years, right? 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:32.719 I'm gonna like escalate it, right? 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:53.840 So for me, I I'm my practice is certainly not perfect at this, but we're constantly working to make the delivery of our information easier to access, not just by trying to make it more compatible for people with different brains, but also to make it simpler to read, more fun to take action on. 00:46:53.920 --> 00:47:00.320 And those are all things that are just constantly moving parts in my practice that I really want to continue to improve. 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:09.840 But it's just because I I just love it and I see so many cool things from all of the

neurodivergent people that's around me. 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:31.039 And I see that people that don't have the experience of learning about autism and ADHD and these um associated comorbidities or co-occurring conditions that can come with them, they're not able to support families that are supporting complex plants in exactly the same way because they just don't have the depth of experience. 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:33.360 So I love it because I love complexity. 00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:36.639 If you don't love complexity, you should never don't be a veterinary behaviorist, right? 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:38.880 So so I love it. 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:40.559 I love helping um these folks. 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:42.559 I love how creative their brains are. 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:50.079 And my hope is to continue to be a more and more safe place for families that are managing all of this. 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:57.679 Because um, you know, like like Ursa, I'm in this field partially because I love people and I love the human animal bond. 00:47:57.840 --> 00:47:59.199 I love dogs, I love aggressive dogs. 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:00.320 They're so interesting, right? 00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:02.800 I love aggressive cats, so spicy and fascinating. 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.239 And I'm like, oh wow, look at you. 00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.719 That was that was a hilarious choice. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.559 And um, wow, very smart. 00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:12.320 Um, but that's gonna we have that's a problem. 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:13.679 We're gonna fix that, right? 00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:22.159 Um, it's very um fulfilling, but also fun because it allows for so much more, invites so much more creativity. 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:24.239 So I'm just having a really great time with it. 00:48:24.320 --> 00:48:25.519 But it's it is actually hard. 00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:36.320 Like I was working on some like disability access stuff yesterday, and I was like, gosh, this is gonna take me like two days to try to fix this, like two full days of work to try to fix this session, right? 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:40.480 And I was like, dang, this is gonna, I'm gonna have to set this like an appointment with myself, right? 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:42.480 But you know, we keep working on it. 00:48:42.639 --> 00:48:52.320 I think, you know, I started doing Brazilian jujitsu like a year ago, and it was the first time as an adult I'd ever tried to learn anything brand new to me. 00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:56.880 And let me tell you, it hands me my ass every day whenever I go in. 00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:01.599 I never want to get on the mat because I know I'm gonna feel like an idiot, right? 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:03.360 And I'm not gonna know what I'm doing. 00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:07.599 I've been told many times how to do the thing, I can't remember it, right? 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:14.800 And so it's actually been really helpful for me because I'm like, this is what our clients are going

through, right? 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:26.000 Like they are just starting from scratch, learning something new, and I'm demonstrating something to them that you know, I'm gonna trot off in like 30 seconds about at my usual rate of speech. 00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.880 And they're gonna nod at me like I nod at my professors on the map and be like, mm-hmm. 00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:32.239 Got it. 00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:34.159 And no idea. 00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:40.239 Not only are they learning something completely new to them, but we expect them to then teach it to their teacher. 00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:41.119 Right. 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:41.599 Yes. 00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:43.519 That I think about that all the time. 00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:50.880 I'm like, I I have this green learner and this other green learner, and and we're expecting one to teach the other. 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:54.239 Like that requires so much patience, right? 00:49:54.480 --> 00:50:01.280 We can't just expect them to pick up on it automatically so that they can also then instruct another living creature. 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.000 Yeah, exactly. 00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:03.760 No, look, I've been in jujitsu a year. 00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:05.119 I still can't tie my belt right. 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:05.679 Right, right. 00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:09.840 I, you know, I say this all the time. 00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:17.280 I think that our profession is one of the few where we're actually expected to teach somebody else how to do our job. 00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:22.400 Like, I don't go to my hairstylist and ask her how to teach me how to cut my own hair. 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:22.639 Right. 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:23.199 She does it. 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:24.719 And then I walk out and I'm done. 00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:28.000 I don't take my car to the mechanic and be like, tell me how to change, right? 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:28.880 You know, whatever. 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:38.320 Um, but my clients are supposed to do my job of changing the behavior of their pet, which is so complex and so hard. 00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.039 That's so true. 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:51.760 And you know, I think it it ties to the idea of like supporting neurodivergent, not just really any client, but especially neurodivergent people, of which, you know, I don't have a diagnosis, but like at least I'm surrounded by people that do. 00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:53.440 Everyone I love does. 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.800 And I think for me, it's so much about like staying curious, right? 00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:11.440 And and wanting to understand how my clients uh think and and see the world and process and you know what's compelling for them and what's easy for them, what's hard for them. 00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:13.760 And it's just like what we do with dogs. 00:51:13.920 --> 00:51:16.239 Like, I want to be curious about this dog. 00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.679 Like, what makes them tick? 00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:18.239 What do they love? 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:18.960 What do they hate? 00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:25.679 It's to me, it's just, you know, that curiosity about just other living creatures that aren't me that don't live in my head. 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:30.880 It's so enriching to understand how other beings move through the world. 00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:42.079 And not just important for me to be able to help them, but it's also uh, you know, an honor, I think, to be able to understand that from somebody else's point of view. 00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:50.000 Like it makes things so much better when we get the privilege of like seeing how somebody else experiences the world. 00:51:50.320 --> 00:52:04.480 So, you know, just to kind of throw that in there in terms of, you know, I don't have firsthand experience with neurodivergence, but you know, we treat everyone like they're an individual and and try to get to the bottom of like what helps you specifically, right? 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:05.360 Absolutely. 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.360 Yeah, you're saying like all that learning, it's also all the unlearning, right? 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.679 Like whether whether an owner has had normal dogs their whole life, right? 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:20.079 And so now they're having to like unlearn, like, okay, my that dog tolerated all this stuff that I'm not supposed to do, right? 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:20.960 A hundred percent. 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:29.519 The amount of noise out there and in the myths that surround our profession, like the unlearning is really hard. 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:30.400 It's real. 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:31.280 It's intense. 00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:33.199 Yeah, it's intense. 00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:48.719 Yeah, we we take that on in our coaching stuff too, because it's such an important part of feeling good about the work you're doing with Complex Dog is being able to release some of the myths that you know you you that were working, quote unquote, or for you previously. 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.039 Maybe they were, maybe not, just you got by with it. 00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:55.519 Um, and now you can't because you have a dog and that really needs you to know. 00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:56.159 Yeah. 00:52:56.320 --> 00:52:56.639 Yeah. 00:52:57.519 --> 00:53:00.960 Well, and it's hard to let go of things that you've internalized. 00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:01.760 I mean, we know that. 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:02.800 We all know that, right? 00:53:03.119 --> 00:53:05.920 Again, like as parents, as women, like you name it. 00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:10.320 God, I was a teenager in the 90s and I'll never recover from that. 00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:28.159 Like, so it's really hard to let go of things you've internalized, even when it's something like, you know, treating your dog a certain way or whatever, like that can be so hard to unpack and let go of and move on from and change your mindset. 00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:35.440 And I mean, I know we

even have research to show that like people have with entrenched views, the more evidence you show, the more entrenched they get, right? 00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:36.239 In some cases. 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:48.480 And so that is such a challenging factor in working with folks who have these sort of like internalized ideas about what the life with their dog should look like or what they should how they should be treating the dog or whatever. 00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:58.079 Um I had a client the other day that I could see, I was meeting with them virtually, and their dog put their feet up on the desk and they were like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. 00:53:58.159 --> 00:53:59.760 I can't believe that they did that in front of you. 00:53:59.920 --> 00:54:01.280 And I was like, I don't care. 00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:02.320 Yeah, exactly. 00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:03.119 I know. 00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:08.239 Like my dog literally eats from my plate, I feed her from my plate when I eat. 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.880 Yeah, like I don't care. 00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:13.039 I just want dogs to live a happy life. 00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.440 If it's a problem for you, we can talk about it. 00:54:15.519 --> 00:54:15.760 Right. 00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:21.280 But like, in no world is your dog putting their feet on your desk a problem for me that I'm even going to register. 00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:22.400 Like, yeah, no kidding. 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:23.039 Yeah, that happens. 00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:25.199 Unless they're gonna growl at you and bite you. 00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:26.559 Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. 00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:29.119 Yeah, I don't want your dog to bite you or anyone else. 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:30.239 And beyond that, I don't care. 00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:30.719 Exactly. 00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.000 Let them get on the couch, let them get on the bed, it's all good. 00:54:34.239 --> 00:54:36.000 Totally, yeah, yeah. 00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:40.239 So even unlearning stuff like that, that's like relatively harmless, right? 00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:44.559 Yeah, but still, I'm like, you don't have to worry about it if it doesn't bother you. 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:45.440 Truth. 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:46.480 Yeah. 00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:56.079 Well, we talked about a lot of stuff, but if you had one thing that you want to leave with the hive mind, which is our audience, to take away from today's episode, what would that be? 00:54:56.719 --> 00:55:00.480 I would say you're not failing your pet, right? 00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:04.800 Your pet is complex, complexity needs support. 00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:09.039 You're doing your best, and that is all that anybody can do. 00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:11.360 So you are not failing your pet. 00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:22.559 And I think on top of that is that uh there's never been a better time to be an amazing pet person with a complex pet because there is so much knowledge now. 00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:25.679 You just have to land in the right spot, right? 00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:28.239 You just need to connect with the right people. 00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:32.960 And when you do, you probably see things change so much and you'll feel so much better. 00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:41.360 I think it's actually a really exciting time to be a person in that position, although, you know, I didn't wouldn't say that people want to walk into that for no reason. 00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:59.840 Um, for pet professionals and veterinarians that might listen to your podcast, what I would love them to remember is as much as possible to work towards releasing the idea of owner blame for these situations because I hear it so much. 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:13.760 And in my veterinary colleagues, sometimes I hear them withholding treatment from these patients because they don't feel like the families have tried hard enough with say exercise or training, right? 00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:25.519 And that is a a problem because there's no other part of veterinary medicine where we would withhold treatment because the clients are not doing everything we told them to do, right? 00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:33.199 And the more we blame our clients for not doing stuff, the more resentful and burnout we get. 00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:36.800 Which is terrible for our profession, our mental health. 00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.320 So the more we can just remember, people are doing the best they can for what they have. 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.679 I know it's not my not my saying, I don't know where it came from, but it's true. 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.480 I think the happier we are able to be, right? 00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:52.000 We can deliver the information, we can encourage them, we can't make anybody do anything. 00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:58.639 And if they aren't able to do something, let's say they're not able to do it versus they're not doing it. 00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:07.360 So that we can continue to meet them where they are and encourage them versus getting more angry and more resentful that they're just not doing the thing, right? 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:09.519 Right. 00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:18.000 And I I would add to that, um, you know, making assumptions about what clients can, can't, will, and won't do. 00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:24.239 And I say this as a recovering uh person who tells myself stories about everything, right? 00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:32.159 Like I spent a lot of my life assuming what other people were thinking and feeling about me or whatever, right? 00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:35.199 And um it doesn't serve you, right? 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:44.000 It doesn't serve you, it doesn't serve your client to make assumptions about what they say, you know, about their behavior, what they're again willing to do or able to do. 00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:49.360 I think it ties back to staying curious, asking, like collaborating. 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:50.559 Hey, how does this feel? 00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:51.519 How does this

sound? 00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:52.559 What do you think about this? 00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:53.840 What was hard about that? 00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:55.119 Like what stopped you? 00:57:55.599 --> 00:58:02.079 Rather than just sort of closing off and assuming, like, oh, well, they just don't feel like it, or they don't want to, or they won't. 00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:04.480 Um, you know, I hear that language from other trainers. 00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:04.880 Yeah. 00:58:05.039 --> 00:58:05.519 And I get it. 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:08.880 Like it can totally working with people and pets is frustrating. 00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:11.599 And there are times where you want to scream and pull your hair out. 00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:13.760 And I love people and I still feel that way sometimes. 00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:28.239 But you know, once you get the venting out of the way, I think the praxis of staying curious and being collaborative and and working with what the person is willing to do, you know, being okay with that. 00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.639 Saying, like, okay, they're not willing to try that. 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:31.360 So next. 00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:32.159 Yeah, next thing. 00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:33.039 Yeah, yeah. 00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:33.280 Right. 00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:34.079 Yeah, yeah. 00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:34.400 Right. 00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:34.880 Yeah. 00:58:34.960 --> 00:58:37.199 So if we compare those two things, right. 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:38.480 Can we spark some joy? 00:58:38.800 --> 00:58:38.880 Right. 00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:46.159 If we compare for families that are managing these complex pets, like, hey, yeah, maybe you've taken some wrong turns, whatever. 00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:47.440 Like, we can work on it, right? 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.679 Let's let's change it, let's try some new things. 00:58:49.840 --> 00:59:01.840 And we compare that with our practitioners, being able to meet them where they are and not blaming them for not being able to do 80 million things, you know, not being able to get on the mat and be a black belt on week seven, right? 00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:09.360 If we can do that, then we have a lot stronger support for the human animal bond. 00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:15.840 And that's what keeps our patients in their homes where hopefully they're safe and belong. 00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.360 And then everybody's happy and the world is a better place. 00:59:19.920 --> 00:59:20.239 Yay. 00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:23.599 Yay! Butterflies and rainbows. 00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:25.599 Unicorns. 00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:27.039 100%. 00:59:29.599 --> 00:59:34.800 So I want to kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and get to know you as people. 00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:37.920 Um, maybe completely off topic, right? 00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:41.199 We don't have to kind of even stay focused in the behavior world. 00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:51.599 But uh, you know, I want you guys to share a story, an anecdote, kind of something

that happens in your real life, or even just a question maybe that you wish we had asked. 00:59:52.000 --> 01:00:03.280 You know, I once worked, I once worked at a veterinary clinic where every Christmas they had a veterinarian who had a journal that she kept all year of funny things that people said. 01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:08.800 And then at the the holiday party, they would guess who said what. 01:00:09.039 --> 01:00:09.760 Oh, interesting. 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.280 And the the that's amazing. 01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:13.760 Yeah. 01:00:14.559 --> 01:00:15.760 Was really funny. 01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:19.039 And uh, I showed up in that book so many times. 01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:21.519 I was like, I said that. 01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:22.719 I can't, okay. 01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:24.559 I guess I probably did say that. 01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:26.239 That's that's cracked. 01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:30.159 But then, of course, put on the spot, I'm like, I can't come up with anything clever but fun. 01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:37.679 My my best friend will be like, uh who uh Elise also knows and we've worked with, she's a trainer as well. 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:41.199 She'll be like, oh yeah, remember that funny or clever insightful thing you said. 01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:43.199 And I'm like, no, I don't actually. 01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:45.039 That was really smart of me. 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:45.599 Wow. 01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:48.719 Past me was brilliant. 01:00:49.599 --> 01:00:50.800 Past me was one time. 01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:52.559 Oh, I do have a funny one. 01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:56.559 One time I got this letter in the mail when I was working in New York City. 01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:02.400 It was this like long, glowing letter about how she was so happy she had come to meet me. 01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:04.800 And, you know, she did everything that I said. 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:06.239 Her dog was doing so much better. 01:01:06.320 --> 01:01:09.039 And then she listed off the things that she thought I said. 01:01:09.360 --> 01:01:11.760 Oh man, that was totally not what you said. 01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:16.000 And let me just tell you, no, none of these things. 01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:17.840 I was like, wow. 01:01:18.159 --> 01:01:19.599 I mean, it's funny. 01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:21.920 I'm glad your pet's better. 01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:23.599 Despite this. 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:35.519 But if if you had bet me$20 about this list of things, I would have been like, you're gonna need seven more veterinary behaviorists after that. 01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:37.280 Right? 01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:47.760 I was, I I wish I had kept it because I, you know, you know, it should like lured me in with the like, you know, oh, you're so amazing, right? 01:01:47.840 --> 01:01:48.719 Like, I love my job. 01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:52.000 I get so much positive reinforcement in my job, I don't get anywhere else, right? 01:01:52.800 --> 01:01:55.360 So I was like, of course I'm getting a thank you know, because I'm amazing. 01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:56.960 And then I'm looking through the list. 01:01:57.119 --> 01:01:58.639 I was like, oh my god though. 01:01:58.880 --> 01:01:59.360 What? 01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:02.079 What? 01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:03.920 Yeah, yeah. 01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:12.239 And that's why I learned to take what people say with a grain of like when a client is like, oh, my other trainer told me, blah, blah, blah. 01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:14.639 And you know, there was a time where I'd be like, what the fuck? 01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:16.400 Like, I can't believe it, blah, blah, blah. 01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:19.519 And now I'm like, okay, that's what you heard. 01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:28.880 But because I had my my best example is I had a client, it was a family, they adopted a dog, the dog was scared of the husband, just living in the house, scared of the husband. 01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:32.480 And, you know, we were doing some conditioning, right? 01:02:32.559 --> 01:02:34.320 Just conditioning to the appearance of the husband. 01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:37.199 So, like, hey, when the husband shows up, treats happen. 01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.239 And they were like, Okay, so we wait for her to stop barking and then we throw treats. 01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:41.679 And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:43.360 Husband means treats. 01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:48.480 And we, I reiterated this every session for probably four or five sessions. 01:02:48.639 --> 01:02:54.960 And then in my last uh session that I had with them, they were like, Oh my gosh, she's so much better because we did exactly what you said. 01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.760 We waited for her to stop barking and then threw the treats. 01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:59.039 I was like, Great, great. 01:02:59.119 --> 01:02:59.840 I'm glad she's better. 01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:00.320 I love it. 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:00.800 I love it. 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:01.760 I mean, it can work that way. 01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:02.480 That's amazing. 01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:13.039 And I was like, oh my God, like you can I can't trust what and it just makes me think about you know how much weight we put on like eyewitnesses in our culture. 01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:14.159 I yeah. 01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:16.559 And it's like, no, no, no. 01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:20.800 People can't rem literally can't remember anything else. 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:22.320 I have their medical records, right? 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:24.000 So when they're like, my vet's said blah, blah, blah. 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:25.360 I'm like, nope. 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.719 Oh, yeah, I don't think so. 01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:28.400 Nope, they said it all. 01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:34.159 I write down everything because I'm like, I want to be clear that I can go back and be like, here's what you said. 01:03:35.360 --> 01:03:35.679 True. 01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:37.039 Here's what I said. 01:03:37.199 -->

01:03:39.280 It was not what you think. 01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.320 But yeah, you know, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. 01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:51.840 And uh, and that just that has just been reinforced over the course of my career because yeah, yeah, you can't trust an eyewitness. 01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:53.679 No, I mean, I've been the eyewitness. 01:03:53.760 --> 01:04:03.280 Like I was just talking to um, because you know, I'm a medical advocate for a lot of medically complex people, and I was just talking to one of the practitioners the other day, and I was like, Yeah, so I did XYZ and I was giving the medication three times a day. 01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:05.039 And the doctor was like, I'm sorry, what? 01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:06.880 And I was like, I'm sorry what? 01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:10.239 She's like, you should only be doing that two times a day. 01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:12.960 I was like, I could have sworn you said three times a day. 01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:14.800 I would never say three times a day. 01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:17.280 I was like, damn it, I'm a I'm a doctor. 01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.960 I know, right? 01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.199 So yeah, that's true. 01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.639 It's just amazing. 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.960 Well, here at the Behavior Buzz, we know you are all busy bees. 01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:32.320 Get a busy bees who live and die by the science like we do. 01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:36.960 So we'll put all of the references uh mentioned from today's show on the website. 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:40.719 So buzz on over to the honeypot page to find those. 01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:42.559 Thank you guys so much, Dr. 01:04:42.719 --> 01:04:43.519 C and Ursa. 01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:47.280 This was such a fun topic, such a fun conversation. 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:48.960 We got to laugh a lot. 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:54.559 I love that you are champions for spicy pets and uh making the world better place. 01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:00.559 That's right, making the world a better place for everyone. 01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:13.199 We had an amazing conversation about astrophysics and and I appreciate that you have this amazing ability to create important, vital, and accessible content. 01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:14.800 So thank you so much for all of that. 01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.199 Yeah, can we talk about dark matter next time? 01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:17.519 Sure. 01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:18.400 Yeah, next time. 01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:19.679 I think we definitely should. 01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:22.159 And the and the boson particles. 01:05:22.639 --> 01:05:23.280 Yes. 01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:25.760 I don't even know what those are. 01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:26.800 I know. 01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:30.639 It'll blow your mind. 01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:33.039 I'm gonna learn a lot next time. 01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:35.679 Thanks so much for having us. 01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.159 It's great. 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:37.679 Thank

you so much. 01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:45.519 Thank you to our premium sponsor, PRN PharmaCal, the makers of Reconcile. 01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:52.559 Reconcile is an FDA approved drug for the treatment of canine separation anxiety in conjunction with the behavior modification plan. 01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:59.760 PRN PharmaCal is committed to meeting the evolving needs of modern veterinary medicine and dedicated to developing products. 01:06:00.239 --> 01:06:03.119 To strengthen the bond between pets and their people. 01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:10.480 And HiveMind, we thank you especially because without listeners like you, we would have nothing to buzz on about. 01:06:10.639 --> 01:06:16.239 So grab a drink or a mocktail or a coffee and join us next time for cocktails and conversations. 01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:18.639 Follow us on all our socials. 01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:27.360 Facebook at Behavior Buzz, Instagram at BehaviorBuzz, and our website, behaviorbuzz.com. 01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.119 Be positive. 01:06:29.519 --> 01:06:30.719 Be informed. 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.280 Now buzz off. 01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.519 Okay, if you don't like it, that's fine. 01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:38.480 All right. 01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:44.000 I know he doesn't have to go out. 01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:46.960 I let him out literally right before this podcast. 01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:48.960 And he's just like, me. 01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:52.000 I have so much FOMO. 01:06:52.159 --> 01:06:54.159 Please have so much FOMO. 01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:55.920 Oh my God. 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:00.000 Hi, Marshall. 01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:02.719 Oh goodness. 01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:14.800 Clients don't know, even with explicit verbal instruction, what information their veterinary behaviorist needs to change their plan and support their pest. 01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:16.400 Their pest. 01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:17.039 Their pests. 01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:19.280 Their pest bests. 01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:20.320 Yes. 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:21.519 Okay, wait. 01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:24.880 I thought we did this one already, but we didn't. 01:07:25.679 --> 01:07:25.840 No. 01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:27.519 Now we're doing it. 01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:28.880 Hold on. 01:07:29.280 --> 01:07:32.239 Good good thing we can cut out while we think about it. 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.360 We should get to play the Jeopardy theme. 01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:48.239 Are you guys hearing banging? 01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:48.719 Yes. 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:50.159 I'm getting it. 01:07:50.639 --> 01:07:51.920 Getting poke put in. 01:07:52.000 --> 01:07:52.480 So he's gonna be able to do that. 01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:55.039 We're gonna try and help drown it out as much as possible. 01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:56.400 Okay, I didn't hear that part. 01:07:56.480 --> 01:07:58.159 I was just like, are we gonna get in trouble with John? 01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:00.000 No, I'm gonna be in trouble with John. 01:08:00.400 --> 01:08:00.480 Yeah. 01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:01.840 Nope, it's your fault. 01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:03.599 Everything is your fault.