התמלול המלא של Dr. Madigan squeezes babies!

They're like straight up salt and pepper shakers. Speaker: 00:04:23 They're just Speaker: 00:04:24 tight. Speaker: 00:04:24 You're taking those things home. Speaker: 00:04:26 Are you? Speaker: 00:04:27 I. Speaker: 00:04:28 I am. Speaker: 00:04:29 And I'm gonna ask for a second set, , because anybody who has more Speaker: 00:04:32 than one child close in age knows that even if the other child does Speaker: 00:04:36 not give a rat's ass about whatever the thing is, you better not just Speaker: 00:04:41 bring one home because there will be Speaker: 00:04:42 blood sugar. Speaker: 00:04:42 That's true. Speaker: 00:04:42 And I don't think you actually did any shopping for your Speaker: 00:04:44 children while you were in Canada. Speaker: 00:04:46 So I mean, you could claim even that they were, uh, the Canadian souvenirs. Speaker: 00:04:51 I could. Speaker: 00:04:52 Um, I will say that I bought one final Tim Horton's Boston Cream donut Speaker: 00:04:58 in the Toronto airport because we do not have Tim Horton's in Iowa yet. Speaker: 00:05:05 And Boston Cream Donut shoved into a, a carryon bag and then hauled through two Speaker: 00:05:14 airports and forgotten about for 24 hours. Speaker: 00:05:19 How did that taste? Speaker: 00:05:20 It was better than no donut, but not by much. Speaker: 00:05:22 It was pretty, it's pretty sad. Speaker: 00:05:24 Um, it's no longer in a donut form, so how. Speaker: 00:05:28 Yeah. Speaker: 00:05:29 And all the frosting had leaked off and the outside was stale Speaker: 00:05:31 and the inside was weird , but it was better than no donut that. Speaker: 00:05:35 So anyway, uh, how are things on the farm, Arlene? Speaker: 00:05:39 Oh, thanks. Speaker: 00:05:39 Quiet without me. Speaker: 00:05:40 Yes. Speaker: 00:05:40 Following you Speaker: 00:05:41 around and, yeah. Speaker: 00:05:43 Quiet. Speaker: 00:05:43 Um, the youngest had to move back into his own room, so he was not, not all Speaker: 00:05:48 that excited, but his brothers were happy to, uh, move him back out again. Speaker: 00:05:52 So that was a, a transition. Speaker: 00:05:54 So Monday was family day, and today we have a snowstorm, so another snow day. Speaker: 00:05:59 So another very short week in terms of of school. Speaker: 00:06:03 But yeah, not much of an update. Speaker: 00:06:06 I guess since last week. Speaker: 00:06:07 The classifier we're recording on Thursday, the classifiers here today. Speaker: 00:06:11 So for non-dairy farming folks or people who don't have registered Speaker: 00:06:16 cattle, um, that means this person is a employee of Holstein Canada. Speaker: 00:06:21 And, um, They come and basically give our cows a mark so Speaker: 00:06:26 they get graded essentially. Speaker: 00:06:27 And, uh, so we're hoping for some high marks today. Speaker: 00:06:32 Um, my husband actually set up, we have enough,

um, passionate staff Speaker: 00:06:37 and family members that they, they set up a little, um, poll I guess, or Speaker: 00:06:42 maybe it's more of a bedding system. Speaker: 00:06:44 I'm not exactly sure. Speaker: 00:06:45 But anyway, people were putting down their guesses as to what the classifier Speaker: 00:06:48 was going to give certain cows. Speaker: 00:06:50 So, so not only will we get to see what the classifier does, but Speaker: 00:06:53 we'll get to see who wins in terms of, uh, who has the closest guest, Speaker: 00:06:57 what the classifier does today. Speaker: 00:06:58 So, I'll let you know, uh, Katie who had the, uh, the closest marks on Speaker: 00:07:04 what the classifier was going to do. Speaker: 00:07:06 I, I told my husband this morning that he was gonna have to tell her not to Speaker: 00:07:09 take bribes for, I mean, not that she would, but, you know, not necessarily Speaker: 00:07:13 that we wanted the highest, uh, classification, but that certain people Speaker: 00:07:17 might be lobbying for very specific point values on, on certain animals. Speaker: 00:07:21 So that's kind of the update. Speaker: 00:07:24 So that requires a little bit of extra cleanup. Speaker: 00:07:27 Uh, there was some clipping going on just to make sure tails and utters were a Speaker: 00:07:31 little bit cleaner and neater than normal. Speaker: 00:07:33 And yeah, I guess that's it. Speaker: 00:07:36 Report cards came in this week, so, you know, that leads to some discussions Speaker: 00:07:42 based on, uh, how things are going. Speaker: 00:07:45 And I think that's, I don't know. Speaker: 00:07:50 Katie, what, do you have any updates from my house? Speaker: 00:07:52 I can't remember. Speaker: 00:07:53 I will say, Katie, my kids have gotten much chattier since you left. Speaker: 00:07:56 I didn't realize that they were, they had gone almost mute. Speaker: 00:07:59 Um, but all of a sudden they're talking again. Speaker: 00:08:01 So clearly our presence meant that they, uh, they stopped talking. Speaker: 00:08:05 Your daughter was a delight. Speaker: 00:08:07 I don't think the boys managed to speak more than two sentences Speaker: 00:08:10 each day in the time I was there. Speaker: 00:08:12 Yeah. Speaker: 00:08:12 Like, you know, like I remember as a kid, it's awkward when your Speaker: 00:08:15 parents have people over and especially someone you don't know. Speaker: 00:08:17 And especially when they just like, stay at your house. Speaker: 00:08:20 Yeah. Speaker: 00:08:20 Take your room. Speaker: 00:08:21 Um, yeah. Speaker: 00:08:23 Take your room and make you deal with your little brother Speaker: 00:08:26 and Yeah. Speaker: 00:08:26 I will say that I, especially my youngest, I feel like I've said it Speaker: 00:08:32 before, he's a bit of a covid kid. Speaker: 00:08:34 Um, if he never had to leave the house, he would be perfectly happy. Speaker: 00:08:38 So I think that having. Speaker: 00:08:41 , you know, almost two years worth of no activities. Speaker: 00:08:45 Limited school, you know, being really quite sheltered here. Speaker: 00:08:49 A lot of things were locked down for a long time between the ages, you know, for Speaker: 00:08:54 him, between the ages of five and seven. Speaker: 00:08:56 It's definitely impacted how he interacts with the world. Speaker: 00:08:59 So that's something that we're gonna have to work on. Speaker: 00:09:02 It's in my head anyway, so we'll see what happens there. Speaker: 00:09:06 Maybe he's just an introvert like me, who knows. Speaker: 00:09:08 Yeah. Speaker: 00:09:09 As an adult who happily celebrated, made his birthday by leaving Speaker: 00:09:13 it introverted clock, which for anyone who seen the videos was Speaker: 00:09:16 before the Garth Brooks serenade. Speaker: 00:09:20 Um, I, I totally get not wanting to talk to people, , and especially not Speaker: 00:09:27 strangers who show up at my house. Speaker: 00:09:29 So, you know, um, for our listeners, Arlene, reasonably asked me not to take a Speaker: 00:09:36 photo, but I'm gonna set up my own once I get home, and I will take a photo of that. Speaker: 00:09:40 But she has a genius idea for all that random shit that accumulates everywhere. Speaker: 00:09:47 The little, little things, you know, she has one of those What, like Speaker: 00:09:52 a, like a plastic five drawer bin? Speaker: 00:09:57 Yeah. Speaker: 00:09:58 I don't know, like a Rubbermaid or whatever. Speaker: 00:09:59 Those, those like craft drawers or the Yeah, yeah. Speaker: 00:10:02 Like a disposable set of drawers. Speaker: 00:10:03 Kind of. Speaker: 00:10:04 Not disposable, but Yeah. Speaker: 00:10:05 Plastic. Speaker: 00:10:05 Yeah. Speaker: 00:10:07 And each of the kids, although in our family it will be the kids plus the adults Speaker: 00:10:12 because we have fewer kids and more adults and more little crap, I would guess. Speaker: 00:10:18 Um, has a labeled drawer for their little crap. Speaker: 00:10:21 And I love this idea because a lot of times I don't want to put stuff away. Speaker: 00:10:25 It's, you know, it's a two inch tall doll that my child is going Speaker: 00:10:28 to demand the minute they get home. Speaker: 00:10:31 But I don't want them all living. Speaker: 00:10:33 In the middle of my dining room table or on the kitchen counters Speaker: 00:10:36 or in the bathroom, which seems to be where everything accumulates. Speaker: 00:10:41 So I'm loving the idea of just giving everyone one space where Speaker: 00:10:45 other random shake can be found. Speaker: 00:10:48 And then when someone says, where's my insert item? Speaker: 00:10:52 You can just say, check your drawer. Speaker: 00:10:54 And hopefully it's there. Speaker: 00:10:55 Yeah, Speaker: 00:10:57

because it's easy to pick up the big toys and the big shit, but when Speaker: 00:11:00 it's like a magazine for my husband, Speaker: 00:11:03 yeah, that, that little handful of screws or bolts or whatever Speaker: 00:11:07 that gets dropped on the table Speaker: 00:11:09 And you, I'm sure there's a, an intention for it, but I don't know Speaker: 00:11:12 what it is or where it should end up. Speaker: 00:11:16 Well, and the girl child makes a lot of art at daycare, which is awesome. Speaker: 00:11:22 But like two weeks ago she cut out a paper hamster, which is Speaker: 00:11:27 fine, and then she cut out. Speaker: 00:11:30 A very large amount of what amounted to confetti as hamster food and like Speaker: 00:11:36 a little hamster blanket and then a little cat, and then some cat food. Speaker: 00:11:40 And so she comes home with what I finally tossed into a court baggie. Speaker: 00:11:46 And it was almost a quart baggies worth of tiny pieces of paper that Speaker: 00:11:52 cannot be disposed of, which is, is totally fine, but that come Speaker: 00:11:56 home loose and just get dumped out. Speaker: 00:11:59 Yeah. Speaker: 00:12:00 Don't move them. Speaker: 00:12:01 And yeah, you know, I've got two little kids and five cats and two dogs. Speaker: 00:12:06 Like tiny pieces of paper is never gonna work in our house. Speaker: 00:12:10 Yeah, that's right. Speaker: 00:12:11 So I'm loving the bin idea. Speaker: 00:12:14 Also, Arlene, the Women's Food and Ag Network is accepting Speaker: 00:12:19 mentor and mentee applications. Speaker: 00:12:22 Um, I believe still primarily in Iowa and Ohio, but I know that they have had. Speaker: 00:12:28 Participants from West Virginia and pending funding other places, um, for Speaker: 00:12:36 their harvesting Our potential program, which sets experienced producers up with Speaker: 00:12:42 newer producers or experienced farmers who are looking to grow and learn, which Speaker: 00:12:50 is exactly how this podcast got started. Speaker: 00:12:54 Um, they are looking for applicants for this year's Harvesting Our Potential Pool. Speaker: 00:12:59 And the website is, I lost it, wfa.org. Speaker: 00:13:08 So that's w F as in Frank, A as in airer, N as in Nigerian, dwarf goat dot. Speaker: 00:13:18 . All right, so we are going to move Speaker: 00:13:22 is one of Katie's like, send out an email and see what happens. Speaker: 00:13:27 And you know what, when you have a podcast, sometimes you send out an email, Speaker: 00:13:30 ask someone who you admire to come on to your show, and they just say yes, which Speaker: 00:13:36 is like the wildest thing, but one of the best parts about, uh, having a podcast. Speaker: 00:13:40 So hope you enjoy this interview. Speaker: 00:13:43 Today we are talking to Dr. Speaker: 00:13:44 John Madigan, who's a professor at the University of California Davis. Speaker: 00:13:48 And

Dr. Speaker: 00:13:49 Madigan. Speaker: 00:13:50 We start each of our interviews with the same question for all of Speaker: 00:13:52 our guests, and this is a way to introduce yourself to our listeners. Speaker: 00:13:55 And we always ask, what are you growing? Speaker: 00:13:57 So for our farming guests that covers crops and livestock, but it Speaker: 00:14:00 can also cover families, businesses, careers, all kinds of other stuff. Speaker: 00:14:04 So we'll ask you the same question. Speaker: 00:14:05 What are you growing? Speaker: 00:14:08 Yeah. Speaker: 00:14:08 Well, thanks for having me. Speaker: 00:14:09 Uh, I look forward to sharing some information. Speaker: 00:14:12 So I guess, uh, I'm not doing crops. Speaker: 00:14:15 I, uh, we have a couple of horses here at the house and, uh, I have a, uh, I'm a, Speaker: 00:14:20 uh, faculty emeriti from the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine. Speaker: 00:14:25 And, uh, they gave me the rights to one of the inventions that I have. Speaker: 00:14:28 So I have a technical rescue company where we design equipment for first responders Speaker: 00:14:33 to, uh, pull animals out of difficult situations, equine cattle and others. Speaker: 00:14:38 And, uh, and so we do trainings for that cuz my past experience with, Speaker: 00:14:43 uh, had a lot of experience with, uh, uh, rescue and emergencies things. Speaker: 00:14:49 And, uh, then I'm also, uh, uh, revising the, uh, fourth edition of Speaker: 00:14:54 my manual, Bitcoin Neonatal Medicine. Speaker: 00:14:56 And, uh, so I have a, uh, lot of activity in the world of, uh, baby Speaker: 00:15:01 horses and, uh, breeders and foing. Speaker: 00:15:05 And then, uh, I do a lot with the, uh, with the invention that, uh, Speaker: 00:15:11 came outta some of our research. Speaker: 00:15:13 Uh, and I don't mind that they called it the, uh, Madigan squeeze Speaker: 00:15:17 once I found out it actually worked. Speaker: 00:15:19 And, uh, so that's a, uh, procedure to, uh, uh, that we work for what's, Speaker: 00:15:25 uh, what we call dummy fos, and we can talk about that if you want. Speaker: 00:15:28 And, uh, so I spent a lot of time doing podcasts and explaining stuff, but it's Speaker: 00:15:32 a way to recreate birth canal pressures, which allows a, uh, calf that doesn't know Speaker: 00:15:37 its mother or a fo that's wandering around the stall, or a lamb, a pig, a crea. Speaker: 00:15:44 And it's very similar to kangaroo mother care, where there's a dramatic increase Speaker: 00:15:48 in survival with the swaddling and we use the, uh, the squeezing thing. Speaker: 00:15:53 It's, uh, so I can talk more about that, but that's, uh, that's occupying a lot Speaker: 00:15:58 of my activities and growing, I guess. Speaker: 00:16:01 Yeah, Speaker: 00:16:01 that's right. Speaker: 00:16:01 That does sound a lot of di like a lot of different things are growing. Speaker: 00:16:04 So I'm guessing that the horse people always want to know how many horses Speaker: 00:16:08 and what are you doing with them, the ones that you actually, uh, Speaker: 00:16:12 come on site? Speaker: 00:16:13 Yeah. Speaker: 00:16:14 Yeah. Speaker: 00:16:14 Right now we just have two here and, uh, uh, so right now we're just doing, Speaker: 00:16:21 uh, trail riding and then we go to some ranch friends and move some cows Speaker: 00:16:26 around, uh, once in a while just for fun. Speaker: 00:16:28 And, uh, they're quarter horses. Speaker: 00:16:31 They're very gentle. Speaker: 00:16:31 They live, uh, a very life of, uh, luxury here. Speaker: 00:16:36 And, uh, we just build a new barn and, uh, uh, with a little Speaker: 00:16:40 place to stay and you can see the horses out the window and whatnot. Speaker: 00:16:44 So, uh, . Yeah. Speaker: 00:16:45 They and I, and we use the horses to, uh, practice some of our Speaker: 00:16:49 technical rescue equipment fitting. Speaker: 00:16:52 So they're, uh, , they go in the stall, whether they eat a cookie, Speaker: 00:16:56 and, uh, we see how things fit. Speaker: 00:16:59 The, uh, the, the horses. Speaker: 00:17:00 Horses, right. Speaker: 00:17:01 Yeah. Speaker: 00:17:02 So you're not actually doing rescues, but just making sure Speaker: 00:17:04 everything, uh, fits on them. Speaker: 00:17:07 Yeah. Speaker: 00:17:08 I haven't had to rescue them yet, although we've been in a few pickles, Speaker: 00:17:11 but I haven't had to use our equipment. Speaker: 00:17:15 So Speaker: 00:17:16 how do you deal with the level of cute that is working with baby animals? Speaker: 00:17:21 Just all the time. Speaker: 00:17:22 I mean, obviously you see a lot of sick and unhappy babies too, but I Speaker: 00:17:26 would think that the, the general acute percentage is probably higher than a lot Speaker: 00:17:33 of Yeah, they're, yeah. Speaker: 00:17:35 When we, it's easy for us when they're cute, that means they're, for us to feel Speaker: 00:17:40 like, uh, that that's a pretty cool thing. Speaker: 00:17:42 They're, they're feeling good, you know, they're looking at you moving around. Speaker: 00:17:47 So they, they've recovered and, uh, so that's good. Speaker: 00:17:50 And then when we see 'em, uh, they're disoriented, recumbent, uh, flopping Speaker: 00:17:56 around, uh, that kind of thing. Speaker: 00:17:59 So they, uh, the cuteness doesn't fit at that moment. Speaker: 00:18:02 It, it comes, okay, uh, what's the matter? Speaker: 00:18:05 Make a diagnosis, uh, figure out a treatment, and then. Speaker: 00:18:10 You know, proceed from there. Speaker: 00:18:11 But it, it makes, it, it, it's sure a lot of fun. Speaker: 00:18:14 And then when you turn what the one of these foals that been upside down Speaker: 00:18:18 and doesn't know his, a

mother and wandering around, then they're out Speaker: 00:18:21 running around the field and they're, he's following his mom and doing stuff. Speaker: 00:18:26 Yeah. Speaker: 00:18:26 That, that's, uh, that's a good reward system. Speaker: 00:18:30 . So I'm going to rearrange Speaker: 00:18:33 I actually found you through Instagram. Speaker: 00:18:37 Somebody was demonstrating using Pnma squeeze on a calf on their farm, and Speaker: 00:18:43 it wasn't something I had heard of. Speaker: 00:18:44 And as a, as a livestock producer myself, I raised beef cattle and Speaker: 00:18:48 lambs, and Arlene has dairy cattle. Speaker: 00:18:51 Um, I've certainly dealt with some lambs that didn't do real well Speaker: 00:18:57 after birth, more than calves. Speaker: 00:18:59 Um, so I'm wondering if you can tell us some about the Madigan squeeze. Speaker: 00:19:04 And my big question was how sure you were, were you that it was gonna Speaker: 00:19:08 work the first time you tried it? Speaker: 00:19:09 Were you like, pretty sure, or was it one of those like, well, it can't hurt Speaker: 00:19:14 because, you know, I know there's some things we try as farmers just because Speaker: 00:19:20 it's worth trying something, but, Speaker: 00:19:23 you know, yeah, yeah. Speaker: 00:19:24 It's, it's one of the most common questions I get is, uh, You know, Speaker: 00:19:29 it really starts with, well, how'd you decide you were gonna try this? Speaker: 00:19:33 And then, uh, you know, what was the first time you used it? Speaker: 00:19:37 And then what's the science behind it? Speaker: 00:19:40 So, uh, there's a bit of a story with it. Speaker: 00:19:42 So I guess with the podcast, that's an okay thing. Speaker: 00:19:44 So I, I started the neonatal intensive care unit, uc, Davis, in the mid eighties. Speaker: 00:19:50 And it was, uh, the third one in the United States. Speaker: 00:19:52 And at that point, when FOLs would come in, we didn't know how to hook Speaker: 00:19:55 'em up to IV fluids and give 'em glucose electrolytes and things like Speaker: 00:19:59 that, and then still be able to keep 'em with her mother and then treat 'em Speaker: 00:20:03 with antibiotics and, and things like that, and oxygen and, and all that. Speaker: 00:20:08 So I saw the critical care aspect and we said what a big part of our Speaker: 00:20:11 teaching load was this thing called the maladjustment or dummy fold. Speaker: 00:20:15 And at that point, the, uh, the, what the experts said, I am board certified Speaker: 00:20:20 internal medicine, so I'll follow my, saw myself in that category. Speaker: 00:20:23 We all, the, the word was that this was due to low oxygen. Speaker: 00:20:28 But as the time went by, I saw that, uh, these folds, if you did intensive care, Speaker: 00:20:33 they would all of a sudden wake up, uh, 2, 3, 5 days into the care, which is Speaker: 00:20:39 expensive and not everybody can do it. Speaker: 00:20:41 They'd wake up and they'd have no residual neurologic deficits whatsoever. Speaker: 00:20:45 So that doesn't happen when your brain is injured to the extent that Speaker: 00:20:49 we're seeing these abnormal behaviors and seizures and things like that. Speaker: 00:20:53 So I thought something else was going on. Speaker: 00:20:57 What, uh, what we, I was in New Zealand and um, on sabbatical and they were Speaker: 00:21:02 working with this project on is it humane to cut the tail off of a newborn lamb? Speaker: 00:21:08 Do they feel things and can you, uh, castrate 'em? Speaker: 00:21:11 Can you do things? Speaker: 00:21:12 So they had a big welfare thing. Speaker: 00:21:13 So they'd meet the European standards for export of lambs, you know, that they Speaker: 00:21:17 were raising 'em right and everything. Speaker: 00:21:18 So these guys were doing a lot of science and they said, and I just snuck into Speaker: 00:21:22 a seminar cuz I, I had time there and the guy, they were talking about these, Speaker: 00:21:27 uh, sedative progesterone derivatives. Speaker: 00:21:30 And I knew about progesterone, of course, when we think of Speaker: 00:21:33 pregnant mayors and whatnot. Speaker: 00:21:34 And, and, uh, but I didn't know that it fed into a pathway to produce sedation, Speaker: 00:21:39 uh, big time sedation, almost like Valium or a barbital or even anesthesia. Speaker: 00:21:45 So, uh, I remembered a graph that guy in England had done Speaker: 00:21:49 in the, uh, late eighties. Speaker: 00:21:52 And he showed that some of these dummy folds had elevated progesterone. Speaker: 00:21:55 He was just measuring stuff. Speaker: 00:21:58 And, uh, so I thought, whoa, well, I'd get back to home. Speaker: 00:22:00 I'm gonna measure that in some of these dummy folds. Speaker: 00:22:02 So we did, and, uh, it was sky high so that we knew that they were endogenously Speaker: 00:22:09 producing this progesterone that was feeding into the brain center that Speaker: 00:22:15 controls sedation and consciousness. Speaker: 00:22:19 And the reason for that is if you're a hundred pound full or Speaker: 00:22:22 80 pound fo in utero, uh, one of the, one of the rules is you don't Speaker: 00:22:27 gallop in the womb, but guess what? Speaker: 00:22:30 Two hours later, you better be doing it, or the predator's gonna get you. Speaker: 00:22:35 So there has to be quite a swish switch in consciousness that occurs at birth. Speaker: 00:22:41 So what is that? Speaker: 00:22:42 Is, is it light? Speaker: 00:22:43 Is it sound, is it touch? Speaker: 00:22:44 You know, you can do a rectal exam on a pregnant mirror and Speaker: 00:22:46 bump that fall and he'll wiggle around, but he's not waking up. Speaker: 00:22:50 . So, uh, anyway, so that was, uh, something to ponder. Speaker: 00:22:54 We just knew that

these dummy folds were full of these and they call 'em Speaker: 00:22:57 neuro steroids cuz the progesterone's a steroid then feeds into this pathway Speaker: 00:23:02 and it's made in the brain and whatnot. Speaker: 00:23:04 And so it was a failure to transition, you know, the consciousness from the, Speaker: 00:23:09 in the womb to the external life. Speaker: 00:23:11 And it was in the fo i I wasn't thinking of other animals at that time. Speaker: 00:23:15 So I had a separate project where we were trying to do a master's project Speaker: 00:23:21 for a student and get it done. Speaker: 00:23:23 And, and when you, when you hold onto a, a fo that's in the newborn Speaker: 00:23:27 category, say 1224 hours, veterinarians and horse owners know this and Speaker: 00:23:32 you wanna do something with them. Speaker: 00:23:33 And you put your arm around the front of 'em, around the Speaker: 00:23:36 back, and you hold 'em tight. Speaker: 00:23:37 They flop their head drops and they go down and it's called the Speaker: 00:23:41 flopping reaction being described. Speaker: 00:23:43 . So we had a neurologist, uh, Dr. Speaker: 00:23:45 Monica Alman, who was working with us, and we said, let's Speaker: 00:23:47 figure out the mechanism of that. Speaker: 00:23:49 So the reason this ties in is that she was doing electrical recordings of Speaker: 00:23:53 brainwave in the fall when we would, uh, put the pressure on him and they'd flop. Speaker: 00:23:59 She said, I need 20 minutes to get this recording done, and Speaker: 00:24:03 hell, I can't hold them minute, we couldn't get anybody to hold. Speaker: 00:24:05 So I remembered this loop, uh, uh, restraint thing that they Speaker: 00:24:10 use in cattle to lay 'em down. Speaker: 00:24:12 It's from the early 19 hundreds. Speaker: 00:24:14 It's been around a long time. Speaker: 00:24:15 Two half hitches over the thorax, something around the, the chest, and Speaker: 00:24:19 you pull on it, cattle will lay down. Speaker: 00:24:21 So we tried it in the full, full leg down, did it for 20 minutes. Speaker: 00:24:26 and, uh, at the, and then we measured all kinds of different things. Speaker: 00:24:29 And since we were measuring the neuros steroids in the, in the , I Speaker: 00:24:32 said, we wanna publish this. Speaker: 00:24:33 So measure it before. Speaker: 00:24:35 Measure it after. Speaker: 00:24:36 Well, what happened is when we got the data at number one, the brain wave showed Speaker: 00:24:40 that they go immediately into sleep when you put this thing on and that Speaker: 00:24:44 showed the, and when they go through the birth canal, uh, that's a good idea Speaker: 00:24:49 because you got two legs and a nose in a miracle presentation that the mirror Speaker: 00:24:53 rolls and puts it in the position. Speaker: 00:24:55 I mean, it's kind of amazing. Speaker: 00:24:56 And if you're doing that,

you sure as hell don't wanna wiggle in and Speaker: 00:24:59 moving back around and everything. Speaker: 00:25:00 So the squeeze of mobilizes them. Speaker: 00:25:03 And then at the end of our 20 minute experiment, uh, we saw that some of these Speaker: 00:25:10 neuro steroids shifted around a little. Speaker: 00:25:12 . So every, so I'm driving home one day and I'm thinking, I wonder, you Speaker: 00:25:16 know, 20 minutes is the stage duration of stage two labor of the mayor. Speaker: 00:25:23 So when she gets a fallen position, the water breaks, it's 20 minutes that the Speaker: 00:25:27 fall goes through that squeezing thing, and then all of a sudden it wakes up. Speaker: 00:25:32 So thought, Jesus, I wonder, wonder if they're, if that's, you know, if Speaker: 00:25:36 some, and then I remember this, you know that some of these folds that Speaker: 00:25:40 come in their dummies, they've had quick birth or they've been pulled. Speaker: 00:25:44 So I get a call, she'll get back to, this is a long answer to your question. Speaker: 00:25:49 How'd you know when you first had it? Speaker: 00:25:50 So here's what happens is when you're in veterinary medicine and you have people Speaker: 00:25:54 and clients, they have your cell phone. Speaker: 00:25:56 So I'm not on duty. Speaker: 00:25:57 I'm sitting in my office in the, in the, this breeder and she's, uh, Ellen Jackson, Speaker: 00:26:02 she won't mind me mentioning her name. Speaker: 00:26:03 She's a owner operator plus a racehorse trainer, magnificent individual, folds Speaker: 00:26:10 out 80, 90, uh, Meres a year there. Speaker: 00:26:14 And so she calls me and towards the end of the season she goes, Hey, I got a dummy Speaker: 00:26:18 fo here and it's the end of the season. Speaker: 00:26:21 I'm exhausted. Speaker: 00:26:22 I can't spend any money on him bringing in. Speaker: 00:26:24 He's been upside down in the feeder. Speaker: 00:26:26 He is eight hours old and somebody said you were doing research. Speaker: 00:26:29 Have you got something cheap that I can just give him? Speaker: 00:26:33 And, uh, cuz I, I, I just can't nurse one of these things along Speaker: 00:26:37 for a few hours or send them in for a few days and send them in. Speaker: 00:26:39 So I said, Oh, well what was the birth like, Ellen? Speaker: 00:26:43 And she says, oh, it was normal. Speaker: 00:26:44 I said, well, you know, you have to sometimes cross Speaker: 00:26:46 examine your, uh, your clients. Speaker: 00:26:48 And I said, well, uh, what was normal? Speaker: 00:26:51 How fast was it? Speaker: 00:26:52 She said, oh man, I was in the kitchen and the full alert went off. Speaker: 00:26:55 I went out there, he was standing up. Speaker: 00:26:57 Oh, a quick birth. Speaker: 00:26:59 Yes. Speaker: 00:26:59 And so a quick birth, you know, the birth. Speaker: 00:27:02 So I'm sitting there and I said,

well, you wanna try something different? Speaker: 00:27:06 She said, if, as long as it won't hurt him and it won't cost me Speaker: 00:27:08 anything, I think your farm, you know, listeners will identify with Speaker: 00:27:13 that a particular, you know, desire. Speaker: 00:27:16 So I said, yeah, have you got a rope? Speaker: 00:27:18 And she said, hell yes, I got a rope. Speaker: 00:27:20 So I drive down there, no drugs, no medicine, no Speaker: 00:27:23 nothing on this neonatal call. Speaker: 00:27:25 And I get there and he's again trying to get upside down in the feeder, Speaker: 00:27:29 flopping around and aimlessly, she's trying to stick a bottle, his mouth, he Speaker: 00:27:33 takes a little bit of milk and whatnot. Speaker: 00:27:36 So I put this squeeze thing on him. Speaker: 00:27:37 He lays down, goes to sleep. Speaker: 00:27:40 , and here's when I knew something happened. Speaker: 00:27:44 As soon as you, I release these ropes and then all these folds, they'll, they'll, Speaker: 00:27:50 and, and if you're doing it to a normal fold, like we did a research thing, Speaker: 00:27:53 as soon as you release that pressure, it's like going outta the burst canal. Speaker: 00:27:57 They just pop right up, they stand, they stretch, they like, they've been asleep. Speaker: 00:28:02 So this guy, he, I let the rope off, he stands up and for the first time in Speaker: 00:28:08 eight hours, he nickers to his mother. Speaker: 00:28:12 And the guy that's holding the bear just about gets knocked over because she hears Speaker: 00:28:18 this from the vo, which is supposed to happen, you know, as part of the bonding. Speaker: 00:28:23 So she just bumps this guy outta the way and goes over and Speaker: 00:28:27 starts licking her, licking the. Speaker: 00:28:30 . So I figured, uh, something happened here and man, it was fast. Speaker: 00:28:36 So then I look over and the, and the owner, Ellen, she just think, Speaker: 00:28:42 and she told me later what she was thinking, she just crack. Speaker: 00:28:45 I'd call Madigan out here to wake the fo up and now he's got him laying Speaker: 00:28:49 out even flatter, going to sleep. Speaker: 00:28:51 You know, what the hell is going on here? Speaker: 00:28:54 You know, she's very practical and so she's over milking the mirror because Speaker: 00:28:59 she said, I have a stomach tube so you can tube 'em while you're here. Speaker: 00:29:03 You know, because she just seen him go sleep. Speaker: 00:29:04 I said, well, why, why don't we leave a little milk there and Speaker: 00:29:08 just see what happens for me? Speaker: 00:29:09 So he goes over and starts nursing and she's just looking at me like, oh my Speaker: 00:29:14 God, why didn't I have this 20 years ago? Speaker: 00:29:16 I've been, you know, dot da da. Speaker: 00:29:18 So that it was trauma. Speaker: 00:29:21 . And then, uh, it was towards the end of our following season, so I had another, Speaker: 00:29:25 uh, veterinary friend in Australia, Dr. Speaker: 00:29:28 Elizabeth Woolsey, and she had a 48 hour fall referred in there and she said, Speaker: 00:29:34 Hey, I, you, you mentioned something about this, you know, squeezing thing. Speaker: 00:29:37 And so she does it, he gets up in eight minutes, he's nursing and they've been Speaker: 00:29:42 48 hours of around the clock care. Speaker: 00:29:45 So we started doing it and that that was the start of it. Speaker: 00:29:50 So how far out after birth does the squeeze work? Speaker: 00:29:55 Well, the cattle people are teaching us something here because we didn't Speaker: 00:29:59 do this experiment in cattle, but they have to do the same thing. Speaker: 00:30:03 They can't, you know, poke a hole in the uterus, you know, while they're in utero. Speaker: 00:30:08 They gotta go through the burst canal. Speaker: 00:30:10 And then some of these things they do wander around, they're Speaker: 00:30:13 off the suck and whatnot. Speaker: 00:30:15 . So what we know in the fos, out for about five to seven days, this will work, but Speaker: 00:30:21 if you're not taking care of 'em in there, they're gonna be septic and hypoglycemic Speaker: 00:30:25 and, you know, not, not, anyway, so it, so it usually, we're doing this within Speaker: 00:30:32 the first three days and now people are catching on, so they do it, uh, early. Speaker: 00:30:37 But I'll have, uh, some of these, uh, things, if you go to Facebook or Google Speaker: 00:30:43 and put in Madigan, squeeze and Calf, the, these wonderful videos from the Speaker: 00:30:49 farmers, you know, uh, the, one of my favorites is the, uh, the wife is filming Speaker: 00:30:55 with the two kids next to her looking through a crack in the barn, you know, Speaker: 00:30:58 window there in the, in the, her husband's out there with a warm jacket on and Speaker: 00:31:03 she says he won't give up on that calf. Speaker: 00:31:06 He's using the esophageal feeder and it's day six now. Speaker: 00:31:10 And I told him, Hey, I heard about this thing on the internet. Speaker: 00:31:14 And then I. Speaker: 00:31:15 You know, so he's gonna try it. Speaker: 00:31:17 So, so the kids are all watching. Speaker: 00:31:18 She's watching. Speaker: 00:31:19 So he's out there, he puts it on and he is in his jacket. Speaker: 00:31:22 And then the cow is on the other side of the, the, the panel. Speaker: 00:31:26 And so he lets go of the rope and that calf walks over Speaker: 00:31:30 there, and tries to get in. Speaker: 00:31:32 He opens the gate and it starts nursing, you know? Speaker: 00:31:35 And the kids go, wow, whoa. Speaker: 00:31:37 You know, this is great. Speaker: 00:31:38 So anyway, that one was, uh, five to seven days that, uh, you know, Speaker: 00:31:43 they've been sticking with it.

Speaker: 00:31:46 Yeah, it's, I'd have to say that tube feeding a baby more than Speaker: 00:31:49 once or twice, it's about the most frustrating damn thing in the world. Speaker: 00:31:53 So if there's something it'll, you know, perk them back up. Speaker: 00:31:56 It's, yeah. Speaker: 00:31:58 I assume that fos are like lambs that the longer they go without food, Speaker: 00:32:02 the stupider they get too, cuz lambs just, you know, yeah, they get real. Speaker: 00:32:08 They'll take real fast. Speaker: 00:32:10 Real fast. Speaker: 00:32:11 And, um, The group in Oregon at the, uh, Oregon State University at the Speaker: 00:32:17 vet school, and then with the ag division there, they just, uh, uh, Speaker: 00:32:21 wrote a, uh, did a study and I think they had 80 or 90 lambs in each group. Speaker: 00:32:27 The ones with the abnormal behavior and then the control group. Speaker: 00:32:32 And they concluded that when they used the squeeze procedure, it rapidly corrected Speaker: 00:32:37 the, uh, the lambs misguided mental stuff. Speaker: 00:32:42 And they started to nurse and, uh, they did ones that were seizing. Speaker: 00:32:46 They had ho there's a nice category you can see if you go lambs. Speaker: 00:32:50 And they called it the thoracic squeeze and the title. Speaker: 00:32:54 And so you can see that. Speaker: 00:32:56 And then they did it in, uh, in, uh, New Zealand. Speaker: 00:33:00 because I communicated this, you know, back to them and they had a c-section Speaker: 00:33:03 lab for the, at the vet school. Speaker: 00:33:05 So they did, you know, a cow and they did C-section, well, some of'em were kind of Speaker: 00:33:08 early, so they bypassed the birth canal. Speaker: 00:33:10 And then two of the, I think they did seven in the lab. Speaker: 00:33:13 Two of 'em weren't nursing at all. Speaker: 00:33:14 So they did the squeeze and they went over and, you know, started nursing. Speaker: 00:33:18 And then they've done, uh, some, I've done some stuff, uh, with the Speaker: 00:33:22 failure to thrive, uh, pigs as well. Speaker: 00:33:25 These little guys that, that wiggle around and get pushed away and then they Speaker: 00:33:28 start fading, uh, they can wake up again. Speaker: 00:33:32 Yeah, Speaker: 00:33:33 I was just wondering if there's any risk factors associated with, with the Speaker: 00:33:36 procedure or, um, you know, if people can mess it up because , we, we can Speaker: 00:33:41 always find ways to mess things up. Speaker: 00:33:44 Yeah, it, uh, the only contradiction would be, and it's in the folds, if they Speaker: 00:33:49 have fractured ribs and uh, if they've had a quick birth, that's unlikely. Speaker: 00:33:54 Cuz they're, that means that they're, you know, they're pretty big. Speaker: 00:33:58 And, uh, so that, that would be it. Speaker: 00:34:01 Uh, um, it's, it, it's a short procedure. Speaker: 00:34:05 Uh, the thoracic thing, if they're in respiratory distress and cyanotic and Speaker: 00:34:10 truly asphyxiated, it's not gonna do anything if there's really brain damage Speaker: 00:34:14 as opposed to a persistence of these hormones that are keeping 'em asleep. Speaker: 00:34:18 So, and all the data shows back to the dummy fos. Speaker: 00:34:21 20% do not recover even in the best intensive care. Speaker: 00:34:25 Well, those are really asphyxiated, brain damaged, uh, fos and, uh, Speaker: 00:34:30 they're not gonna get better. Speaker: 00:34:32 So, um, eight outta 10 will, but that, that the eight outta 10 are the one. Speaker: 00:34:38 That somebody brought into the clinic or the vet comes twice a Speaker: 00:34:41 day, and not everybody can do that for, you know, two to 7, 5, 7 days. Speaker: 00:34:47 It's, it's, uh, so the fact that, you know, you could, there's a lot of Speaker: 00:34:51 ways to put this thoracic pressure on. Speaker: 00:34:53 We have a little harness that we use in the clinic, but I, they, they said, why Speaker: 00:34:57 don't you sell that and market that? Speaker: 00:34:59 And I said, well, I'm afraid people are gonna think you need this damn Speaker: 00:35:02 special harness, rather than a rope that you can just put a half pitch around. Speaker: 00:35:05 So we're not gonna, we're not going to even show that in the pictures. Speaker: 00:35:09 So we stick with the rope. Speaker: 00:35:11 And I hear some people worried about putting a rope around there, but I Speaker: 00:35:16 mean, they, some of my veterinarians say, oh, I just sit on 'em now. Speaker: 00:35:19 I just sit, you know, on top of them and, uh, whatnot. Speaker: 00:35:23 So, no, it's, it, and there's so many videos of how to do it. Speaker: 00:35:26 Like you can find one, I. Speaker: 00:35:28 Manual, equine neonatal website, and it's got, you know, very easy step by step, Speaker: 00:35:34 you know, ways to do it and you'll know you're doing it right if the fo lays down Speaker: 00:35:39 and you just keep enough pressure on. Speaker: 00:35:40 People say how much pressure is, just keep some tension on there. Speaker: 00:35:43 If they start to wake up, pull it a little harder. Speaker: 00:35:46 And it's like having an untrained dog, which I'm very familiar with, out on a Speaker: 00:35:50 walk, and they're kind of pulling on you. Speaker: 00:35:52 It's about that much pressure. Speaker: 00:35:54 Does it matter, um, how big a rope you use compared to the size of the animal? Speaker: 00:36:00 I'm saying I'm okay. Speaker: 00:36:02 I'm trying to pick. Speaker: 00:36:03 No, you Speaker: 00:36:04 can, you want something that slides and produces some compression Speaker: 00:36:08 loss, uh, the dorsal, uh, over the back and then under the stern. Speaker: 00:36:13 And, uh, so, you know, a medium sized rope and without ridges on it. Speaker:

00:36:18 So it'll slide, you know, is, is easy. Speaker: 00:36:21 And there is a company, I think it's equine reproduction products Speaker: 00:36:24 or something, and they have a rope that has a Honda in it. Speaker: 00:36:27 So you don't have to, the rope would normally go, you know, over the Speaker: 00:36:31 shoulder between the front legs, and then it comes up to the withers, goes Speaker: 00:36:36 over the back, put the rope underneath it, that's called a half hitch. Speaker: 00:36:40 Then you go over the back, put it underneath that, and then you pull the Speaker: 00:36:44 long extension out behind the fold, have somebody holding it while it, then Speaker: 00:36:48 it just gradually, easily lays down. Speaker: 00:36:51 And it's used now in normal folds. Speaker: 00:36:52 And where you gotta do an ultrasound or you gotta put a IV catheter Speaker: 00:36:58 in, or you gotta run some plasma. Speaker: 00:37:00 The fo goes to sleep, you put a blindfold on them, the mayor knows the FO's asleep. Speaker: 00:37:04 You let her just stand right there. Speaker: 00:37:06 And you can do a lot of procedures in the fo uh, except that they're, they, they Speaker: 00:37:11 have a reduction in their pain response, which we determined in the experiment. Speaker: 00:37:15 They're, they're asleep, not an nesti. Speaker: 00:37:17 So you can, you can wake 'em up if you, you know, poke 'em too hard. Speaker: 00:37:21 But they do have an increase in endorphins and, uh, so they, they Speaker: 00:37:25 tolerate a little bit of, uh, things that they normally wouldn't Speaker: 00:37:30 see. Speaker: 00:37:30 This sounds promising even for having to poke at a calf. Speaker: 00:37:33 Cuz the nice part about lambs is you can, you know, pick 'em up and Speaker: 00:37:36 do stuff, but having to hold onto a calf while somebody does something Speaker: 00:37:39 to 'em is a little more, little more Speaker: 00:37:42 challenging. Speaker: 00:37:42 Yeah. Speaker: 00:37:42 Sometimes. Speaker: 00:37:43 Yeah. Speaker: 00:37:44 And they'll, they'll lay down. Speaker: 00:37:45 It makes it a hell of a lot easier. Speaker: 00:37:46 Yeah. Speaker: 00:37:47 It's as the one who's always holding on. Speaker: 00:37:50 You know, , I have a, I have a vested interest in making this easier. Speaker: 00:37:54 Yeah. Speaker: 00:37:54 Um, so did you grow up on a farm or how did you end up in, in Speaker: 00:37:59 vet medicine in the first place? Speaker: 00:38:02 Well, Speaker: 00:38:03 I, uh, you know, I actually, uh, grew up in San Francisco and then, Speaker: 00:38:07 uh, my sister liked to ride, and so my mother bought her this horse that Speaker: 00:38:12 turned out to be kind of a runaway. Speaker: 00:38:14 And, and, and they kept it in Golden Gate fields. Speaker: 00:38:16 And so for some reason I started riding it. Speaker: 00:38:19 I guess I was 12 or 13, and, and the police barn was right there. Speaker: 00:38:24 And then, so the horse would every once in a while take off and run me through Speaker: 00:38:27 an intersection, and then I would turn it up into the trees and stop it. Speaker: 00:38:31 And I wasn't phased too much by that. Speaker: 00:38:33 And then the police officers were on their mountain of patrol. Speaker: 00:38:36 They said, Hey kid, uh, come on down to our place. Speaker: 00:38:40 We , we, we wanna show you a few things. Speaker: 00:38:43 So I started doing that, and then I was riding my sister's Speaker: 00:38:45 horse so much they bought me one. Speaker: 00:38:47 Then we moved to. Speaker: 00:38:49 Woodside to have the horses. Speaker: 00:38:50 And I got a job on a, uh, children's camp in guest ranch when I was 15. Speaker: 00:38:55 I had to misrepresent my age, uh, as being a little older. Speaker: 00:38:59 And then, uh, where you taught kids riding and then played, you know, I Speaker: 00:39:03 did some roping and then I met a guy that played polo as a veterinarian. Speaker: 00:39:06 That's how I got into veterinary medicine. Speaker: 00:39:09 Uh, bill Lin Foot, and he was, he was a nine goal polo player. Speaker: 00:39:12 So I, and I started playing polo, but I was really impressed by him and Speaker: 00:39:16 he convinced me I, if I hadn't, uh, gotten a B in metal shop, I wouldn't Speaker: 00:39:20 have graduated from high school. Speaker: 00:39:22 So I had to really, uh, change some of my, uh, , uh, study habits and, Speaker: 00:39:28 uh, and then had to be motivated. Speaker: 00:39:30 And so he was a mentor for me and, uh, and I, I I, he did wild horse Speaker: 00:39:36 breaking and, uh, he, he was really a hand and, uh, he could get on a Speaker: 00:39:41 horse in 45 minutes, rope it, and then approach it and do all the things. Speaker: 00:39:44 And it's, that's all caught on this natural horsemanship. Speaker: 00:39:47 But he was, he was superb at it, but I, I noticed how he would focus on that horse. Speaker: 00:39:52 So I had attention deficit disorder, so when I was in class, I'd Speaker: 00:39:55 watch my instructor like a, like a, he watched these wild horse. Speaker: 00:39:59 And then I, my gpa my first year of, uh, junior college was 1.7. Speaker: 00:40:05 And then after I did this, I had a 3.66. Speaker: 00:40:09 And, uh, so that, that was how then I, I had to really work hard to get into Speaker: 00:40:12 vet school because I had such bad a. Speaker: 00:40:17 I think it really says something no to the power of finding the right thing for you. Speaker: 00:40:22 You know that Yeah. Speaker: 00:40:24 As someone who also, um, has adhd, that, you know, if you find that thing Speaker: 00:40:29 that interests you enough and you find the right folks to encourage you at Speaker: 00:40:32 it, you can do just about anything. Speaker: 00:40:35 But until you find

that it can be a mess, and it's still a lot of work after that. Speaker: 00:40:41 So. Speaker: 00:40:42 Yep. Speaker: 00:40:43 One of the thing, yeah. Speaker: 00:40:44 One of the things you talked about at the beginning was your work in, uh, Speaker: 00:40:47 disaster and emergency response involving large animals and doing rescues. Speaker: 00:40:52 So is it just being in California that leads you into that field, or Speaker: 00:40:56 is there, there's something else. Speaker: 00:40:57 I mean, being from places where there are, you know, not really any risks of Speaker: 00:41:02 fires or earthquakes, um, you know, we feel more safe, I suppose, where we live. Speaker: 00:41:08 But what else led you into to that part of, of your work? Speaker: 00:41:13 Yeah, well when I, when I, uh, graduated from vet school, I went into Speaker: 00:41:17 private practice in Mendocino County and, um, I ended up discovering this Speaker: 00:41:22 infectious disease up there that was considered very rare in horses and, Speaker: 00:41:27 uh, only been 1616 in the world. Speaker: 00:41:28 And then I see the saw started, diagnosed a lot of 'em and ended up getting recall. Speaker: 00:41:35 The university offered me a job and, and, uh, back, uh, back at the, at Speaker: 00:41:40 the School of Veterinary Medicine. Speaker: 00:41:41 Uh, and I had a master's cuz it took me so long to get into vet school. Speaker: 00:41:46 So when I first went there, we got all these really difficult cases. Speaker: 00:41:51 We'd come in, horses would come in, in other words, down horses, you Speaker: 00:41:54 know, they'd be in a wreck, fall off a cliff or do do something. Speaker: 00:41:58 They'd come into the clinic. Speaker: 00:42:00 So I was in a referral practice. Speaker: 00:42:01 Well, we had terrible slings. Speaker: 00:42:04 . So I started working with a welder friend of mine in private practice, Speaker: 00:42:07 Charlie Anderson, when we developed this sling, it's called the Anderson Sling. Speaker: 00:42:10 And after, named after Charlie. Speaker: 00:42:12 And so I started, you know, taking care of a lot of horses, lifting Speaker: 00:42:18 'em, putting 'em in slings, and you know, helping him that way. Speaker: 00:42:20 And then I got a call from, uh, this organization, there were, Speaker: 00:42:25 uh, five mules and one horse at the Sierras at 8,000 feet. Speaker: 00:42:29 This is 1992. Speaker: 00:42:30 And, and, uh, they were gonna, big snowstorm was coming in, and Speaker: 00:42:33 so they, they couldn't get to 'em with, uh, they airlifted the people Speaker: 00:42:37 out that got caught on this pass. Speaker: 00:42:38 So they said, Hey, uh, they made a call to the school. Speaker: 00:42:42 So the dean sent the call to me and I said, well, sure. Speaker: 00:42:46 I, you know, we can, we could, you know, put him, attach him to a helicopter. Speaker: 00:42:51 Fly 'em out of there. Speaker: 00:42:52 And then they said, have you done that? Speaker: 00:42:53 I said, well, no, but, uh, you know, what's the difference between a hook Speaker: 00:42:57 that's on a helicopter, a hook that's on the top of the beam in our barn? Speaker: 00:43:01 You know, I, I, I, I know this equipment, they're not getting out of it. Speaker: 00:43:05 They, I know that, so I don't care whether it's, you know what the hook's on. Speaker: 00:43:09 Oh, okay. Speaker: 00:43:10 So anyway, I, so, so I did that and we were successful and there was Speaker: 00:43:16 a tremendous amount of publicity with a video of the fo, you know, Speaker: 00:43:19 the mule in the air and landing. Speaker: 00:43:21 And they, we landed at a ski resort. Speaker: 00:43:23 We had another team there on Hook 'em, and then we came back and got another one. Speaker: 00:43:26 So, so then there was a big flood in 97. Speaker: 00:43:30 So I, I, I'd been getting calls from fire departments, emergency place, Hey, Speaker: 00:43:36 we can't get this horse outta here. Speaker: 00:43:38 Can you do that here? Speaker: 00:43:38 Look. Speaker: 00:43:39 Yeah. Speaker: 00:43:39 Okay. Speaker: 00:43:40 So when the flood happened, I called this veterinary friend of mine up Speaker: 00:43:44 there in Yuba City when the levee broke in 97 with this atmospheric river. Speaker: 00:43:48 Like we, we had recently. Speaker: 00:43:50 and uh, and I said, you need any help? Speaker: 00:43:53 He said, yeah, the animal control went underwater. Speaker: 00:43:56 And so they took my clinic over. Speaker: 00:43:58 So they're all here and I'm hearing about all these animals that are stuck. Speaker: 00:44:01 I said, well, you want us to come up? Speaker: 00:44:03 He said, hell yeah, come up. Speaker: 00:44:05 You know? Speaker: 00:44:05 So I started doing that and then, geez, you know, we're going up boats Speaker: 00:44:10 and, you know, getting dogs and horses and, you know, you know, tying Speaker: 00:44:16 'em to, to the back of a boat when they're swimming, they get scared. Speaker: 00:44:20 They get off this high spot and you tone 'em to a levy and make Speaker: 00:44:23 'em stand with their head out of the water and things like that. Speaker: 00:44:26 So, since I've done a lot of cowboy stuff, it was just easy, you know, for Speaker: 00:44:29 me, uh, to do relative to some others I guess that, that, you know, just Speaker: 00:44:35 anyways, just kind of a personality thing. Speaker: 00:44:38 And, uh, so then the governor has this big deal and. Speaker: 00:44:43 , um, you know, thanks everybody. Speaker: 00:44:44 And then all of a sudden I'm on the California Animal Response emergency Speaker: 00:44:48 system training, you know, uh, committee, committee . So all of a sudden I'm, you Speaker: 00:44:56 know, you know, in this disaster thing. Speaker:

00:44:58 But I've been there, done that, and so I have some ideas. Speaker: 00:45:01 So that's how I got started. Speaker: 00:45:03 And then our students wanted to do it, so I would, you know, uh, they thought we Speaker: 00:45:08 were much or more organized than we were. Speaker: 00:45:09 They said, God, you guys respond well, you know, when I get a Speaker: 00:45:12 call, I walk through the barn. Speaker: 00:45:13 Are you busy? Speaker: 00:45:13 No. Speaker: 00:45:14 Okay. Speaker: 00:45:14 You know, we didn't have a call out list or anything. Speaker: 00:45:17 They, they had really no idea was, you know, okay. Speaker: 00:45:20 Anybody, is anybody using that truck? Speaker: 00:45:22 Okay, let's get it. Speaker: 00:45:25 . It was that kind of thing that got me into, uh, the emergency stuff. Speaker: 00:45:28 Then it got very, very organized. Speaker: 00:45:30 So our school of vet Med Veterinary Emergency Response Speaker: 00:45:33 team, we have 90 students in it. Speaker: 00:45:35 And, uh, I started that and then I helped write the legislation Speaker: 00:45:39 for the Cal Vet program. Speaker: 00:45:40 We got $3 million a year, uh, to that program every year to coordinate with Speaker: 00:45:45 the California Department of Food and Ag and do trainings, get counties Speaker: 00:45:49 up to speed and things like that. Speaker: 00:45:52 What equipment do they need, and then have a coordinated response. Speaker: 00:45:55 So I'm not doing that. Speaker: 00:45:56 I just helped kind of lay some groundwork for it. Speaker: 00:46:01 Sure. Speaker: 00:46:02 Have there been recent rescues with the, I mean, we've been hearing about the, Speaker: 00:46:06 the flooding in California as of late. Speaker: 00:46:08 Have there been a lot of animal rescues that have been required or Oh yeah. Speaker: 00:46:11 Oh yeah. Speaker: 00:46:12 Yeah. Speaker: 00:46:13 Yes. Speaker: 00:46:13 They've been. Speaker: 00:46:15 Well, yeah, there's been, there, there, there's a lot of movement of animals. Speaker: 00:46:20 I, there hasn't been any, uh, dramatic things that I'm aware of. Speaker: 00:46:24 What, what, what, when, when, you know, something's coming, like Speaker: 00:46:27 these storms, you know, it, it, it's now it's not like, oh gee, I Speaker: 00:46:32 never thought this was gonna happen. Speaker: 00:46:34 So after all these years where the wildfires and now with the, with the Speaker: 00:46:38 flooding and everything, there's these county animal emergency response teams, Speaker: 00:46:44 and none of that existed when we, you know, got the first call for that. Speaker: 00:46:48 We didn't have any of that. Speaker: 00:46:49 So we don't, uh, there was a rescue on the Tevas Cup with, uh, a horse had Speaker: 00:46:54 to get air lifted out of there, and they used our equipment and protocols Speaker: 00:46:58 and, and uh, things like that. Speaker: 00:47:00 But, uh, with the floods there's always, you know, horses that are in water Speaker: 00:47:05 that people have to wait out and get. Speaker: 00:47:08 but people are getting smarter here and they do things in advance and they move Speaker: 00:47:12 the animals, the, you know, the higher ground or the neighbors and whatnot. Speaker: 00:47:16 Especially with a little advanced warning that something big is happening. Speaker: 00:47:22 So, Dr. Speaker: 00:47:23 Madigan, can you describe some of the equipment that you've created? Speaker: 00:47:26 Cuz I know, you know, we see a lot of animal welfare videos, you know, Speaker: 00:47:32 decrying and hip lifts and that, and I don't think that non livestock Speaker: 00:47:36 folks get how big cattle and horses are and that you can't just grab 'em Speaker: 00:47:42 cuz they've got, you know, bones and squishy internal bits and, and that Speaker: 00:47:47 they move, you know, which really Yeah. Speaker: 00:47:49 Makes it harder than picking up a car or something, you know. Speaker: 00:47:53 , you can't just grab 'em. Speaker: 00:47:55 Yeah. Speaker: 00:47:56 And then, so when it happens to a cow rancher, it doesn't happen every day. Speaker: 00:48:00 So they're a low frequency event. Speaker: 00:48:02 Mm-hmm. Speaker: 00:48:02 , but they're, and then we call that high hazard too, because it things can go wrong Speaker: 00:48:07 for the animal or the people responding. Speaker: 00:48:09 And so in the fire department, if they respond, whether it's a rancher, a fire Speaker: 00:48:13 department, they have the same thing. Speaker: 00:48:14 It's a low frequency, high hazard event. Speaker: 00:48:16 So the experience that we had, like with this Anderson sling, I had to give a talk. Speaker: 00:48:21 So we pulled up the records. Speaker: 00:48:22 It'd been used in 3,500 horses since we invented it. Speaker: 00:48:27 So we have a hell of a lot of experience about, you know, how to do this stuff. Speaker: 00:48:31 So that's a good sling, but it's hard to get on a recumbent pat, a down horse or Speaker: 00:48:36 a down count or anything underneath it. Speaker: 00:48:38 It's got so many buckles and straps and everything. Speaker: 00:48:40 So then the next invention, I had what's called the large animal lift, Speaker: 00:48:44 and that's commercially available with another company, not mine. Speaker: 00:48:48 And it slides underneath them and it has a bar over the top of it. Speaker: 00:48:53 and that that's an okay piece of equipment. Speaker: 00:48:55 It's about 2,800 bucks. Speaker: 00:48:56 The Anderson sling's about 14,000 or 12 thou, no, excuse me, 6,000. Speaker: 00:49:01 And so there's a bit of a investment. Speaker: 00:49:04 So you, so I mean, being a practical guy, you know, said two things. Speaker: 00:49:09 One, it's gotta be accessible equipment at the time you need

it, you've gotta Speaker: 00:49:14 be, it's gotta be easy to put on. Speaker: 00:49:17 and you've got, it's gotta be portable. Speaker: 00:49:20 So we, the thing that we have now is called this loops rescue system. Speaker: 00:49:23 Been sent a duffle bag that you can carry, and then it has a guidebook in Speaker: 00:49:29 there where if you take the time to read this or do one training with it, Speaker: 00:49:33 it, it, the, a person stands behind the back of the horse or the cow. Speaker: 00:49:38 And then you read, reads to the person, throw the loop over the upper Speaker: 00:49:42 front leg, pull it towards you, then put the loop over the cow or the Speaker: 00:49:47 horse's head, pull it around you. Speaker: 00:49:49 Now that's step one, step two, da, da, da. Speaker: 00:49:52 So the fire department guys, they read to each other. Speaker: 00:49:54 It's like, pull an a, e, D for a defibrillator. Speaker: 00:49:57 You pull it off the wall, they, they tell you everything, walk to the Speaker: 00:49:59 patient, you know, then open the shirt or whatever, you know, put the pedal. Speaker: 00:50:03 So this guidebook, step by step. Speaker: 00:50:05 So, cuz I could see our students couldn't remember if you don't, if you only do it. Speaker: 00:50:09 Intermittently. Speaker: 00:50:10 You, I'm good at. Speaker: 00:50:11 So this thing, yeah, it, it's very simplified and there's no knots. Speaker: 00:50:16 It's a continuous loop. Speaker: 00:50:17 So I just pondered this and then, uh, Dr. Speaker: 00:50:21 Alman and I were with one of our horses. Speaker: 00:50:23 We were out here cuz you don't wanna put it under their arm and then lift them Speaker: 00:50:26 up cuz the brachial plexus is there. Speaker: 00:50:28 So we figured out if you pass it over the head and bill crisscross under the Speaker: 00:50:32 sternum, it lifts by the skeletal system, whether it's a cow, a horse, a giraffe. Speaker: 00:50:36 We have one for giraffes that's a little longer straps. Speaker: 00:50:40 And, uh, we have an inflatable giraffe to practice at the zoos, Speaker: 00:50:45 you know, with how to, how to pull a giraffe around and things like that. Speaker: 00:50:49 And, uh, so that's the, it's called the loops rescue system. Speaker: 00:50:53 It's, uh, on the internet and uh, my son and I distribute it, do the Speaker: 00:50:58 training, and uh, it's less than $500. Speaker: 00:51:01 So that's the advantage. Speaker: 00:51:03 And it has everything we think. Speaker: 00:51:05 Uh, somebody needs, and it doesn't take up a lot of space in a firetruck. Speaker: 00:51:09 So the other thing is, uh, one of the guys, the Office of Marine Reserves, Speaker: 00:51:12 they're getting it N F P A approved for the fire departments so they Speaker: 00:51:16 can use their federal funds to, to grab, you know, to purchase it. Speaker: 00:51:20 And, uh, well I'm, I'm doing a

training in Illinois this month. Speaker: 00:51:24 I'm gonna do it over the internet cuz it's, uh, I've worked with some Speaker: 00:51:28 of the guys there so they know it. Speaker: 00:51:29 But they're gonna train, uh, their, their first responders and Speaker: 00:51:33 then they're gonna train some of the rural fire department guys. Speaker: 00:51:36 Cause you got a horse sticking his head out with some ice and everything. Speaker: 00:51:39 It's hard to get in there on the mud. Speaker: 00:51:42 So we have a real practical. Speaker: 00:51:44 Approach, and we think you can do about 85, 90% of what you need to do out of Speaker: 00:51:49 this duffle bag compared to having a rescue trailer with hooks, snaps, and Speaker: 00:51:54 guideposts, you know, and all, all this stuff with, which is behind a Speaker: 00:51:58 lock gate on a Sunday where somebody doesn't have the key and the person, Speaker: 00:52:02 there's one person on duty and they're an hour away looking for a lost dog. Speaker: 00:52:08 And you've gotta wait with a horse or a cow flopping around, stuck somewhere. Speaker: 00:52:12 So you have to have accessible equipment. Speaker: 00:52:14 That means it has to be affordable and it has to be able to have Speaker: 00:52:17 an instruction guide in it. Speaker: 00:52:18 So that's been the guiding principles for that. Speaker: 00:52:22 . Well, I know one of my husband's friend's Speaker: 00:52:26 fall and thank God was not killed. Speaker: 00:52:29 But realizing how far away the equipment is to deal with something like that Speaker: 00:52:34 really drives home the importance of being able to do something, like Speaker: 00:52:37 throwing a duffel bag in the back of a truck instead of having to go. Speaker: 00:52:41 Yeah. Speaker: 00:52:41 You know, it was an hour and a half drive to get the equipment they needed to get Speaker: 00:52:45 everything back up the hill and off him. Speaker: 00:52:47 And that was, Speaker: 00:52:49 ugh, serious. Speaker: 00:52:50 Oh no, it exactly right. Speaker: 00:52:53 And, um, you know, if you're on a pack trip and the horse gets in the Speaker: 00:52:56 mud, you can have, you know, I, I do some lectures in the mountains Speaker: 00:53:00 in Craig London at his pack station there in the Sierra, as he has one. Speaker: 00:53:05 And, uh, one of these kits. Speaker: 00:53:07 And, and, uh, if you have it in a horse trailer at a barn, you Speaker: 00:53:12 can grab it and, and you know, horses that down is dead for them. Speaker: 00:53:16 So they, they fight like hell. Speaker: 00:53:17 They, and then all these secondary engine, by the time you get there with Speaker: 00:53:21 equipment in two, three hours, they're in another bad, further bad state. Speaker: 00:53:27 Yeah, I was gonna say, it says a lot about your horsemanship that you've done in Speaker: 00:53:30 this many rescues and haven't been

killed. Speaker: 00:53:32 So Speaker: 00:53:34 yeah, I think that somebody was acting Speaker: 00:53:37 Somebody was asking me, they go, Hey, uh, how'd you get this protocol? Speaker: 00:53:42 When we were doing the airlift of mules, cuz a packer couldn't go in, there was Speaker: 00:53:45 only so much room in the helicopter. Speaker: 00:53:47 And then we had the other guy that was doing the lifting helicopter Speaker: 00:53:50 and uh, so he said a couple of those mules don't like it. Speaker: 00:53:53 Just everybody that they see, you know. Speaker: 00:53:55 And so we had to walk em out in the snow where, so the, the helicopter came Speaker: 00:54:00 in with a long line and then we had to put the frame over the top of em. Speaker: 00:54:04 So we started blindfolding them, you know, cuz we learned that, that in, Speaker: 00:54:08 in, uh, and then when we've done. Speaker: 00:54:10 Trainings up the Marine Mount Warfare, you know, the, the, the, the Marine guys. Speaker: 00:54:14 They're like, oh, here's a college professor to show us what to do. Speaker: 00:54:17 You know? Speaker: 00:54:18 And, and so they go, well, you can catch if you can, you know, put this on Freddy, Speaker: 00:54:23 you know, you can use anything here. Speaker: 00:54:25 And they go, well, where's Freddy? Speaker: 00:54:26 Oh, we got him in the squeeze shoot so we can put the halter on him. Speaker: 00:54:29 You know, so I, oh, okay. Speaker: 00:54:31 So I put Freddy out on the tar back after we got the halter on me. Speaker: 00:54:35 And he, he, he was really an expert at kicking, but we blindfolded him and then Speaker: 00:54:40 he tried to kick and he fell down and he couldn't see what happened to him. Speaker: 00:54:43 He got back up and he thought, damn, I tell you, these guys are tough. Speaker: 00:54:46 I better stand still. Speaker: 00:54:48 So yeah, there I've been, you gotta have a little savvy, you know, since cowboy Speaker: 00:54:53 stuff where no, we better not do that. Speaker: 00:54:56 We better stand here. Speaker: 00:54:57 Wait a second. Speaker: 00:54:58 I was on a trail ride and a friend of mine was trying to go up out of the water and Speaker: 00:55:03 there'd been a big change in the river, and his horse fell backwards with him. Speaker: 00:55:08 and he got his rain, his foot over the rain, and the rain was Speaker: 00:55:11 over the horn of the saddle. Speaker: 00:55:13 So the horse was stuck and he was flailing around and the guy barely got out of Speaker: 00:55:17 this, it was 10 feet of water or so, where he is, where the horse moved in. Speaker: 00:55:22 So I galloped up to see where he is, helped him get out, and I'm Speaker: 00:55:24 watching this horse f flopping around. Speaker: 00:55:26 And I, so getting back to this instinct, I remember get, when you Speaker: 00:55:30 get your, you know, lifesaver thing, they'd go wait for the

person to Speaker: 00:55:33 quit struggling and then grab him. Speaker: 00:55:35 So this horse just went under the water and then I walked out and stuck Speaker: 00:55:39 his head out and he held his breath. Speaker: 00:55:40 He blew a bunch of water out of his nose, believe it or not. Speaker: 00:55:44 And then he just like a, like a sort of a submerged boat that was on its side. Speaker: 00:55:48 I could just drag him to the edge and got my pocket knife out and Speaker: 00:55:52 cut his rain off of the horn. Speaker: 00:55:53 He stood up. Speaker: 00:55:54 But if I tried to, you know, jump in anyway, it's, yeah, you gotta, you Speaker: 00:55:59 gotta have that sixth sense to like a, kind of like a, uh, rodeo clown. Speaker: 00:56:06 Yeah, , I don't know a lot about how the fire service works and I'm in Canada, Speaker: 00:56:11 so I mean, it's probably a different system, but are there ways that we as Speaker: 00:56:14 farmers could advocate to get our fire departments, to have that gear on site? Speaker: 00:56:19 Or are there programs to, to, to kind of put a bit of pressure on Speaker: 00:56:24 to make sure that those things are available if we should need them? Speaker: 00:56:26 Because I know in some places there aren't a lot of farms, but you're Speaker: 00:56:30 also depending on those people to help you out when you need it. Speaker: 00:56:34 Yeah, well, a lot of these communities do have, you know, the, uh, well, they, Speaker: 00:56:40 California, they named California. Speaker: 00:56:41 They, uh, county animal response teams. Speaker: 00:56:45 Well, when you're really rural and you, you, you, you, you know that if you've Speaker: 00:56:51 got a problem, then you, you, you get a group of people that say, well, if you Speaker: 00:56:54 have a problem, here's a call, call list. Speaker: 00:56:57 And, uh, you know, we'll, we'll drop what we're doing and. Speaker: 00:57:01 and, you know, go over there, uh, go to the site. Speaker: 00:57:04 So a lot of times it's through the volunteer fire departments. Speaker: 00:57:07 That's where, you know, they go and then they have to respond because they'll be, Speaker: 00:57:11 they get these animal calls all the time. Speaker: 00:57:13 I mean, if you go to Google and look at fire department and horse Speaker: 00:57:16 rescue, there'll be some horse pulled out of this or that every week. Speaker: 00:57:20 So I think there's two things that it's, one is that you get a little Speaker: 00:57:24 training and you should train with something that's very simple. Speaker: 00:57:29 And then you should have it be affordable so that it's not a, you Speaker: 00:57:33 know, it's not you, you, you'll, you'll, you'll pull the trigger on it because Speaker: 00:57:38 you're not gonna use it very often. Speaker: 00:57:40 And, uh, I think if you start with that and then send one of your Speaker: 00:57:45 guys,

if you, we do these trainings periodically and they learn how to. Speaker: 00:57:50 . Now what we do is we have a PowerPoint and a disc that gives all the background Speaker: 00:57:55 on the different equipment you can use and why you might wanna use this, Speaker: 00:57:58 and the limitations of all the things. Speaker: 00:58:00 And then the steps to do it in the mud, in the water, off the edge, Speaker: 00:58:06 pull it backwards, pulling forward. Speaker: 00:58:08 And you can actually, they can give that PowerPoint after they've Speaker: 00:58:12 been to one of these trainings and show the other people how to do it. Speaker: 00:58:17 And it, and that's the, you know, in Vet Med they used to say, uh, okay, Speaker: 00:58:22 uh, here's what you're gonna do is, uh, w watch one, do one, teach one. Speaker: 00:58:29 You know, so it's a little bit like that, but it has to be simple, Speaker: 00:58:33 practical, and then have a reminder system, which is this little booklet. Speaker: 00:58:37 It's not on a damn app, it's in print. Speaker: 00:58:40 It's, it's, uh, waterproof, coffee proof, manure proof. Speaker: 00:58:47 , you know, so that you can go, okay, we're gonna pull 'em backwards. Speaker: 00:58:50 So, okay. Speaker: 00:58:51 Stand here. Speaker: 00:58:51 Tell me which leg do I throw this damn thing over. Speaker: 00:58:54 Okay. Speaker: 00:58:55 Yeah. Speaker: 00:58:56 And then you can stretch these out. Speaker: 00:58:57 There's four loops in there. Speaker: 00:58:59 So you can pull for, well, you can put six, eight people on the end of Speaker: 00:59:02 this after you attach it to the front of the back of the cow or the horse. Speaker: 00:59:06 And you can loop these together. Speaker: 00:59:08 And then there's another six feet, another six feet, and you'd get a whole pile Speaker: 00:59:12 of people and give a yank on this thing if you can't get your equipment there. Speaker: 00:59:17 So that's all kind of, you know, that just comes from the cowboy Speaker: 00:59:21 up stuff that I grew up with. Speaker: 00:59:23 Well, it's Speaker: 00:59:24 good to see too, you know, animal handling equipment that's built for Speaker: 00:59:27 when things are going wrong, because it seems like so much of what we see is Speaker: 00:59:32 it'll work great as long as this horse is stuck somewhere on dry flat cement. Speaker: 00:59:38 You know, like . It wouldn't be stuck. Speaker: 00:59:41 Yeah. Speaker: 00:59:41 If it was somewhere that it was gonna be easy to get it Speaker: 00:59:43 out of cuz it would've just. Speaker: 00:59:45 Walked away, you know, wouldn't be an issue. Speaker: 00:59:47 Yeah, we've got even a thing called a people mover in there and uh, it's got Speaker: 00:59:53 all these straps on, it's 1800 pounds and you can get it under a horse. Speaker: 00:59:57 And then if you can attach the, one of these loops to that on either side of Speaker: 01:00:01 that, and then the loop on the horse. Speaker: 01:00:03 So you got a drag system if you do have to go over kind of really rough stuff too. Speaker: 01:00:08 And that's all that's in the bottom of the bag. Speaker: 01:00:11 So, uh, you know, as you mentioned that, cuz some of these skids are Speaker: 01:00:15 really nice, but they're, they're great big, you know, 10 feet, you know, you Speaker: 01:00:21 don't, you don't always have that. Speaker: 01:00:22 So we got this and if you tear a couple holes in it, great. Speaker: 01:00:26 Get another one. Speaker: 01:00:26 After you're done, you're gonna use it again in about a year or maybe two. Speaker: 01:00:30 So you said people mover. Speaker: 01:00:31 I thought maybe we were talking about, you know, like when I was pregnant Speaker: 01:00:35 and I got stuck in the mud out in the sheep lot and lost my boots and we Speaker: 01:00:39 coulda used some sort of a hoist system Speaker: 01:00:41 for that one system too. Speaker: 01:00:42 That's the other thing. Speaker: 01:00:43 Yeah. Speaker: 01:00:44 We always make a joke and say, God dang it. Speaker: 01:00:46 Now you animal lover people. Speaker: 01:00:48 If we go out there and the rider, there's been a wreck and the horse is off the Speaker: 01:00:53 edge and there's also a person there. Speaker: 01:00:55 You gotta use the people motor on the person first. Speaker: 01:01:00 . Cause these other people say, oh, we gotta get the horse. Speaker: 01:01:03 No. Speaker: 01:01:03 Okay, no people first. Speaker: 01:01:08 So as people who have livestock, one of the things that's, you know Speaker: 01:01:12 is always in the back of your mind is what to do in an emergency. Speaker: 01:01:15 So what things should we be doing as livestock owners to be ready for Speaker: 01:01:19 an emergencies when they come up? Speaker: 01:01:20 What things should we have already in place? Speaker: 01:01:23 Yeah. Speaker: 01:01:24 Well, that's a really good question and there's lots of good literature on it, but Speaker: 01:01:29 figure out what the risk factor is for the season, that seasons that you experience. Speaker: 01:01:34 You know, it could be, you know, uh, freezing. Speaker: 01:01:38 It could be flood, it could be fire, it could be, you get a lot of earthquakes. Speaker: 01:01:43 And so, you know, when I, I give a talk in Japan, it was all about earthquake and Speaker: 01:01:48 animal sheltering and things like that. Speaker: 01:01:51 So if you're gonna have a fire, okay, what are we gonna do? Speaker: 01:01:55 If we're gonna shelter in place, where are we gonna move the animals Speaker: 01:01:58 or whatnot for a defensible space? Speaker: 01:02:01 And that may mean we gotta rearrange a little landscaping. Speaker: 01:02:04 So you sit and make a plan so that that's the, that's the deal. Speaker: 01:02:08 And.

Speaker: 01:02:10 You can, the farmers and ranchers are very practical, but if you just say, Speaker: 01:02:15 identify what's the problem and then say, okay, could we move all these cattle? Speaker: 01:02:20 Uh, if the fire starts right away, if it's a long distance away and Speaker: 01:02:23 it's liable to come, yeah, you may be able to have time, but if you don't, Speaker: 01:02:27 so you figure out a scenario for a rapid, uh, what are you gonna do? Speaker: 01:02:31 And if you gotta leave everybody, if you gotta have the carrier for the Speaker: 01:02:34 dog, the cats and all this stuff, there's some very elaborate, you know, Speaker: 01:02:39 preparations have seven days of food and, you know, this kind of thing. Speaker: 01:02:43 It, it just enough to, to save you first and your family members and then the pets. Speaker: 01:02:51 And then what about the livestock and things like that. Speaker: 01:02:54 So you have your important papers, dammit, you know, just have 'em in a Speaker: 01:02:57 deal that you grab and take with you, you know, have that on your list. Speaker: 01:03:01 So, You just gotta sit down and say this could happen. Speaker: 01:03:05 That's the first thing is that this probably won't happen to me, you know? Speaker: 01:03:08 Well we all got a safety belt on now, but back in the day, you know, when Speaker: 01:03:13 they were just didn't even have 'em. Speaker: 01:03:15 It was like, uh, I'm not going on too long of a trip. Speaker: 01:03:17 I don't have to wear it. Speaker: 01:03:18 You know? Speaker: 01:03:18 Now that kind thing, you just have to say this could happen Speaker: 01:03:22 or it happened to somebody else. Speaker: 01:03:23 So we better sit down and go through the personal plan, the family plan, the Speaker: 01:03:29 pet plan, and then the livestock plan. Speaker: 01:03:33 And then if you check with your county Office of Emergency Services, because Speaker: 01:03:39 once you leave it's hard to get back in. Speaker: 01:03:42 And if you have to take some ding online training about, which basically Speaker: 01:03:48 tells you if the fire department to go in there, you need an escort. Speaker: 01:03:51 If we tell you to leave, you gotta leave. Speaker: 01:03:53 And very practical, but you get a little okay. Speaker: 01:03:57 Badge if you will. Speaker: 01:03:58 So they finally passed legislation cuz ranchers would go in and say, Hey, I Speaker: 01:04:02 just gotta push these cows out up here. Speaker: 01:04:04 And they say, no, it's a roadblock. Speaker: 01:04:06 Or trailers trying to get into a a, a, a stable that's, that's being evacuated Speaker: 01:04:11 and they don't have enough trailers and they're so they, yeah, they want Speaker: 01:04:14 everybody to evacuate and the guy at the roadblock says, you can't come in. Speaker: 01:04:17 No, we're we're going. Speaker: 01:04:18 And he, so well, I, I'm, I'm here to help move the horses out and we have time. Speaker: 01:04:22 Sorry you can't get in. Speaker: 01:04:23 So if you have one of these office emergency services, what do I need Speaker: 01:04:28 to get back in or to be helpful? Speaker: 01:04:31 Uh, or to say that I understand what the risks are and that you've got a Speaker: 01:04:35 name and you've got maybe a badge. Speaker: 01:04:38 it is helpful to me cuz when I've gotta go somewhere and they're blocking people, Speaker: 01:04:41 blocking people, and then they'll have a, a, uh, code that I gotta say to the Speaker: 01:04:46 guy on the, uh, the roadblock and that, you know, they make a joke at, they Speaker: 01:04:50 go tell 'em Madigan, that's the code. Speaker: 01:04:52 I go, uh, I don't, they, they think I'm making that up. Speaker: 01:04:55 It's in my light driver's license. Speaker: 01:04:57 But anyway, Speaker: 01:04:59 I like that. Speaker: 01:05:00 It's like, uh, bond, James Bond. Speaker: 01:05:03 It'll just be, you know, yeah. Speaker: 01:05:04 Madigan, Dr. Speaker: 01:05:05 Madigan here to rescue horses. Speaker: 01:05:08 Um, yeah, I was thinking too, you know, so many rural folks. Speaker: 01:05:14 You know, I'm in Iowa and more of the emergencies we see are flooding in that. Speaker: 01:05:17 Um, but we're starting to see so much about pets, especially getting Speaker: 01:05:22 separated from owners during emergencies and trying to get people Speaker: 01:05:26 matched back with the right animals. Speaker: 01:05:29 And I know as a, as a rural farmer, this fancy town crap, like microchipping Speaker: 01:05:35 has never been something I considered. Speaker: 01:05:37 And then, yeah, you know, we got a, got another dog and the vet said, Speaker: 01:05:41 you know, it's, it's 20 bucks to get a micro chipped now, right? Speaker: 01:05:45 I was like, well, shit. Speaker: 01:05:47 And then she even came out to the car and did it. Speaker: 01:05:49 And I have to say that's pretty cheap insurance for knowing Speaker: 01:05:52 that, you know, somebody will microchips that much easier to bring Speaker: 01:05:57 them back. Speaker: 01:05:57 The thing you can do when you get separated and somebody says, oh Speaker: 01:06:01 yeah, that's my Palomino, you know, quarter horse there, I wanna take Speaker: 01:06:05 it home is a simple thing to do is take your picture with your pet. Speaker: 01:06:11 And have it on your phone that you're not gonna lose or back up or on the Speaker: 01:06:15 internet because you can show a picture of your pet, but you could have got Speaker: 01:06:18 it off the internet, but not the two of you standing together was some, Speaker: 01:06:22 you know, something that reflects, you know, you're at your place too. Speaker: 01:06:26 And that's a very, you know, useful actually re reunification thing. Speaker: 01:06:31 We had to make these pet pads

for us, for the campfire, the Butte, there Speaker: 01:06:34 was so many animals overwhelming this temporary shelter in this, uh, former. Speaker: 01:06:40 Mental hospital of all things. Speaker: 01:06:42 You know, back in the day when people weren't on the street, so we were trying Speaker: 01:06:45 to keep a shelter, it was terrible. Speaker: 01:06:47 So we wanted to move 'em to other counties, well they'd say, well, we Speaker: 01:06:50 could lose track of 'em and they'd have a microchip, but what if they Speaker: 01:06:53 have the wrong reader or whatnot? Speaker: 01:06:55 So we created these pet passports and the best thing is back to the old Speaker: 01:06:58 thing, is the photo of the, of the pet that goes along with the collar. Speaker: 01:07:03 Cuz the collar can come off the, the microchip is great if you have it on Speaker: 01:07:07 there, but the, the photo with the owner that's going to be requesting the animal, Speaker: 01:07:12 whether it's a horse or not, is good. Speaker: 01:07:14 And then if your horse get loose, you know, you, it's nice to have Speaker: 01:07:18 something written on 'em or a collar or something like that. Speaker: 01:07:21 But we have microchip for horses too. Speaker: 01:07:24 So, but what I'm hearing you say is that the next time somebody argues about having Speaker: 01:07:28 our dogs in our formal family portraits, I can tell 'em that you said we had to. Speaker: 01:07:32 I like, I like this a lot. Speaker: 01:07:34 I Speaker: 01:07:34 mean, it's, it's a safety measure, dammit. Speaker: 01:07:36 Yeah. Speaker: 01:07:37 We had Speaker: 01:07:37 our, we had our dog in our weddings, so there's dogs in every family picture. Speaker: 01:07:41 Oh, yeah. Speaker: 01:07:41 You know, it's, Speaker: 01:07:42 yeah. Speaker: 01:07:43 No, that's right. Speaker: 01:07:44 And you can't keep 'em out of there. Speaker: 01:07:46 If you did you and you're videoing, all you'd hear is woof, woof. Speaker: 01:07:49 You know, the, they might as well just let 'em sit there next to you. Speaker: 01:07:53 Yep. Speaker: 01:07:53 My, uh, in our wedding photos, my ossie is tucked up under the Speaker: 01:07:57 skirt of my wedding dress through pretty much the entire ceremony. Speaker: 01:08:00 Oh, there you go. Speaker: 01:08:00 So, Speaker: 01:08:01 you know. Speaker: 01:08:01 Yeah. Speaker: 01:08:02 I forget what movie I saw where, uh, oh, it was James Harriet. Speaker: 01:08:07 Do you watch that? Speaker: 01:08:08 Where the, the dog ate the wedding ring and then they had to give , give Speaker: 01:08:13 him the buster to make him throw up Speaker: 01:08:17 Yeah. Speaker: 01:08:17 So, right. Speaker: 01:08:18 One of our dogs actually ate my daughter's umbilical cord when it Speaker: 01:08:21 fell off right after she was born. Speaker: 01:08:23 So I said, you know, oh wow. Speaker: 01:08:25 That's

how you know they're really part of the family when they go ahead and. Speaker: 01:08:28 Party or kid. Speaker: 01:08:28 Yeah, they're bonded. Speaker: 01:08:29 He looked so cute. Speaker: 01:08:30 Not Speaker: 01:08:30 in the hospital. Speaker: 01:08:31 Just to clarify though, not at the hospital. Speaker: 01:08:33 No. Speaker: 01:08:34 , no, no. Speaker: 01:08:34 He would let Ola into the hospital. Speaker: 01:08:38 . Poor dumb creature. Speaker: 01:08:39 That's all right. Speaker: 01:08:40 I'm gonna ask, I was gonna ask a parenting question, John, because we're both, uh, Speaker: 01:08:44 parenting and an Ag podcast, and I'm at the stage of life where my oldest Speaker: 01:08:49 is going off to school in the fall, and as a professor, I'm wondering if Speaker: 01:08:53 you have any advice on things that we should be doing now to make sure that Speaker: 01:08:58 she's as ready as she can be for, uh, the university or college experience. Speaker: 01:09:03 Because, you know, as a parent, I'm feeling nervous about it, obviously, so I Speaker: 01:09:07 figure you've got some expertise in this. Speaker: 01:09:10 . Yeah. Speaker: 01:09:11 Well, I, you know, it's a changing environment, you know, from when, uh, Speaker: 01:09:15 and I have, uh, my kids, you know, went through that and, uh, I ended Speaker: 01:09:20 up, uh, taking him to school, pulling him outta school and taking him to New Speaker: 01:09:25 Zealand with me when I did that, uh, six month sabb at, so my son went to Speaker: 01:09:30 a high school at a school, and then my daughter went to Mass University and she Speaker: 01:09:34 ended up staying there and graduating. Speaker: 01:09:36 So the, what, what, when I left her there, she was living with a, Speaker: 01:09:40 a family that I met and knew via Veted and, and that kind of thing. Speaker: 01:09:45 So she had a, it wasn't, uh, some, you know, uh, eight kids living in a Speaker: 01:09:51 three-story place at like Idaho, uh, you know, which is a party, you know, thing. Speaker: 01:09:56 So, You know, the dorm thing is good because you start and you meet people and Speaker: 01:10:02 staying in the dorm is, is a good idea. Speaker: 01:10:05 And if you have a school that, you know, here in California, there's some Speaker: 01:10:09 a schools Cal Poly and things like that. Speaker: 01:10:12 And, uh, Davis is, it's huge now, but I think, uh, getting in the dorm Speaker: 01:10:17 and then when they do get outside the dorm, you really wanna be Speaker: 01:10:20 careful what you know on the roommate selection and you know, how many kids Speaker: 01:10:25 are in there and things like that. Speaker: 01:10:27 And spend some extra money so they have some privacy, you know, for the Speaker: 01:10:31 studying because the distraction. Speaker: 01:10:33 When I was in college, one of the things I had to do was I had Speaker: 01:10:35 to move out of the apartment. Speaker: 01:10:37 I was living with three other guys and get my own, you know, it was a real dive, Speaker: 01:10:42 but I could sleep, get up, study, you know, I had control of my environment. Speaker: 01:10:47 So I think that that is really important. Speaker: 01:10:50 And, uh, yeah, I, I, it, it's a challenge. Speaker: 01:10:54 Uh, you know, I, things are with the social media and all this stuff, so I Speaker: 01:11:00 think a good school that's grounded in, you know, fundamentals and that, that's, Speaker: 01:11:04 that's getting harder to find, uh, would be one of the most important things. Speaker: 01:11:10 And then the dorm, and then the schooling, and then, uh, you know, Speaker: 01:11:13 that, that, and letting 'em know there's gonna be a lot of distractions. Speaker: 01:11:17 And, uh, you know, that if they wanna stay there, you know, you, you, they're gonna Speaker: 01:11:22 have to, you know, try to achieve this. Speaker: 01:11:25 And if they get into trouble in something, that's okay, but get the help. Speaker: 01:11:28 Figure out where you go to the study hall where you go to. Speaker: 01:11:31 Thing and don't feel like if your roommate doesn't go to those extra Speaker: 01:11:36 study sessions that you do like this. Speaker: 01:11:38 Bill Linwood told me, he said, if you gotta stay eight hours for that Speaker: 01:11:42 physics test and your roommate and for you to just get a B and your Speaker: 01:11:45 roommate, you know, just sails through and gets an A, it doesn't matter. Speaker: 01:11:48 That's what you gotta do. Speaker: 01:11:49 You're, you're, you gotta, you know, you're, you have your own thing. Speaker: 01:11:54 But if you gotta do that eight hours to get that grade, then do it. Speaker: 01:11:57 It doesn't matter what the other people are doing. Speaker: 01:12:00 So that was good advice for me because I did have to really, uh, had to Speaker: 01:12:04 record classes and things like that. Speaker: 01:12:07 So you figure out what your learning style is and then, uh, you know, it, Speaker: 01:12:13 it, it's a, it's a bit of an adaption and uh, but I think the type of school Speaker: 01:12:18 and the housing that you have is the best first start that I would suggest. Speaker: 01:12:23 And that my kids thrived in New Zealand and my son didn't have as good Speaker: 01:12:28 a coaching thing here in the town. Speaker: 01:12:31 We were in the coaching, there was very, very, uh, good for, Speaker: 01:12:36 uh, getting the students to feel like the coach believed in them. Speaker: 01:12:39 And that, uh, you know, uh, you know, you wanna play in this position Speaker: 01:12:45 if it's working, let's try that. Speaker: 01:12:46 If you tell me that helps you, but otherwise, you know, and then Speaker: 01:12:48 a coach would hear, would tell 'em, stand here, don't do this. Speaker:

01:12:51 And, and, uh, so this, that, and then they would walk to school. Speaker: 01:12:57 Uh, you know, the proximity to the, to the, you know, Speaker: 01:13:00 where your, your classes are. Speaker: 01:13:02 It's really important. Speaker: 01:13:03 That's why the dorms to start with. Speaker: 01:13:05 And then your secondary housing don't be too far away. Speaker: 01:13:08 And, uh, so you can bike or walk, you know, to school if you can. Speaker: 01:13:13 Yeah, those are good Speaker: 01:13:14 reminders. Speaker: 01:13:14 I, uh, , it's residence applications open today, the day that we're recording. Speaker: 01:13:19 So we're, uh, we're on on schedule to get her application, uh, put in Speaker: 01:13:24 today to be in residence next year. Speaker: 01:13:26 So we've, uh, hopefully we'll have the first piece of your Speaker: 01:13:29 advice, uh, followed for sure. Speaker: 01:13:32 Oh, that's Speaker: 01:13:32 good. Speaker: 01:13:33 John. Speaker: 01:13:33 I actually did my study abroad at Massey and had a great experience, so. Speaker: 01:13:37 Oh, you did? Speaker: 01:13:38 Yep. Speaker: 01:13:38 But Arlene, my advice was just gonna be to let her buy some more cows so she doesn't Speaker: 01:13:42 have any money to get into trouble. Speaker: 01:13:44 You know, , a couple more show happens. Speaker: 01:13:47 Show, but there's no money for tuition Speaker: 01:13:48 either. Speaker: 01:13:52 minor, little pay Speaker: 01:13:53 for Speaker: 01:13:53 tuition and red note somehow. Speaker: 01:13:55 Yeah. Speaker: 01:13:57 Yeah. Speaker: 01:13:58 So, John, what do you. Speaker: 01:14:02 C being next for you in your research. Speaker: 01:14:04 And I noticed, you know, poking through the tremendous list of papers Speaker: 01:14:10 you've written and been cited in, um, some work around human medicine Speaker: 01:14:16 with cortisol and the sympathetic nervous system and all that. Speaker: 01:14:19 And, you know, as, as that relates to your research with the Madigan squeeze Speaker: 01:14:24 and that, so what do you, what's next? Speaker: 01:14:27 What's the, what's the next thing to put your name on and, you Speaker: 01:14:31 know? Speaker: 01:14:31 Well, I, you know, uh, my daughter won me remind me telling, but she, Speaker: 01:14:37 you know, uh, it's a genetic thing. Speaker: 01:14:39 She developed postural orthostatic tachycardia or pots in, uh, it's a. Speaker: 01:14:46 you know, a postviral thing, and then your heart rate goes up. Speaker: 01:14:49 You don't circulate your blood the way you did your blood. Speaker: 01:14:52 Your body feels like you're, what we call hypovolemia. Speaker: 01:14:54 Like you dumped a liter or two of blood out on the sidewalk, so you're weak. Speaker: 01:14:59 You can't put your hands over your head. Speaker: 01:15:01 The shampoo, you do all this stuff. Speaker: 01:15:03 So, uh, I didn't have a lot of things for that. Speaker: 01:15:06 It's a, it's a long story, but I ended up, she was getting prescribed Speaker: 01:15:10 IV fluids periodically and seeing a good neurologist, cardiologist. Speaker: 01:15:14 So I, I saw this machine, this is called external counterpulsation. Speaker: 01:15:19 Uh, and uh, it's a deal that squeezes your legs, uh, uh, and a synchrony, uh, Speaker: 01:15:25 with it cuz the EKGs being recorded. Speaker: 01:15:28 So I went with her to her cardiology appointment and of course the guy Speaker: 01:15:31 sees me sitting there and he, when we both come in, he goes, uhoh, I got Speaker: 01:15:35 another one of you, you professor's gonna tell, tell us cardiologists Speaker: 01:15:39 what to do and, you know, whatnot. Speaker: 01:15:40 So I asked if we could use his machine that he had up there and Speaker: 01:15:44 he said, sure, it won't work. Speaker: 01:15:45 And, and it did. Speaker: 01:15:47 So I ended up buying the machine and then getting trained on it. Speaker: 01:15:50 So for six years, actually, I go there once a week and she gets Speaker: 01:15:54 on this machine and then she can actually function very well. Speaker: 01:15:56 It resets your autonomic nervous system and there's a lot of Speaker: 01:15:59 people suffering from that. Speaker: 01:16:01 and she just started this new medication that slows her heart rate down and Speaker: 01:16:05 she's not gonna use that machine. Speaker: 01:16:06 So there's a discovery there with a drug that's designed for something else. Speaker: 01:16:10 It's, it slows the AV node in the heart, but she's a Speaker: 01:16:13 completely different person now. Speaker: 01:16:15 And, uh, so I think trying to share, uh, some stuff about Speaker: 01:16:20 what we learned on the pots. Speaker: 01:16:21 We wanna do a broadcast cuz there's a lot of kids that they get told, Speaker: 01:16:24 it's all in your head, we can't find anything wrong with you. Speaker: 01:16:27 Uh, you know, you just gotta suck it up. Speaker: 01:16:29 And, and they actually have a, you know, a problem. Speaker: 01:16:32 And her mother had it and it was very life-changing for a, for a gal. Speaker: 01:16:37 Grew up on a cow ranch and then you can't walk to the mailbox without Speaker: 01:16:41 sitting down sometimes and stuff. Speaker: 01:16:43 So that's one thing. Speaker: 01:16:44 And then this thing with the squeeze and the kangaroo mother. Speaker: 01:16:48 I'm telling you this, uh, that was invented, you know, seen in, not Speaker: 01:16:52 invented, but it was midwives started saying, don't bring your baby. Speaker: 01:16:57 This is in Columbia, into the uh, I c U. Speaker: 01:17:00 They're gonna die there. Speaker: 01:17:01 Uh, there were a lot of premature births. Speaker: 01:17:03 Poor, poor prenatal care. Speaker: 01:17:05 Well, when they started delivering the

baby, then sticking him onto Speaker: 01:17:08 the mother's chest and then tightly swaddling cuz they had to walk around Speaker: 01:17:11 with 'em, they wore 'em all the time. Speaker: 01:17:13 Well, that's the same thing that's happening, I think with the squeeze is Speaker: 01:17:17 it helps and they show that it increases oxygenation and increases survival. Speaker: 01:17:22 It increases, uh, feeding response, immunization. Speaker: 01:17:27 And now they have a study that's gone out for 18 years showing Speaker: 01:17:30 that your neurodevelopment scores. Speaker: 01:17:34 . So that's one thing. Speaker: 01:17:35 I think looking at our mechanisms that we've discovered with the neuro Speaker: 01:17:39 steroids and applying that with the brainwave and other things and Speaker: 01:17:42 infants, I'd like to, we started that and we had some hiccups with that. Speaker: 01:17:46 We did that with Stanford. Speaker: 01:17:47 We had Bill and One Gates Foundation, polymer G Grant. Speaker: 01:17:51 So I'd like to. Speaker: 01:17:52 Re you know, uh, revisit that thing, uh, a little bit and, and get some Speaker: 01:17:58 more awareness because kids that are in NICU and everything and, and the, Speaker: 01:18:01 and the, and the doctors, and we see this in vet Met, the hardest thing to Speaker: 01:18:06 get the Madigan squeeze to be used is in one of these critical care units. Speaker: 01:18:09 Because they can run the IV fluids, they can run the oxygen. Speaker: 01:18:13 That's what they do. Speaker: 01:18:14 They got the resident training, man. Speaker: 01:18:15 That's the kind of cases they live and live for. Speaker: 01:18:18 Well, if you don't integrate that particular procedure, you don't change Speaker: 01:18:23 some of the neuro steroids, which can help you and maybe the animal. Speaker: 01:18:26 So the same with the infants getting this, and now a lot of hospitals do it, Speaker: 01:18:30 but I think if you had a marker and we think we've identified a marker in folds Speaker: 01:18:34 with actually this serum progesterone level, and if you could get a quick Speaker: 01:18:38 test for that, and you say, the reason this baby's not ventilating is cuz Speaker: 01:18:42 it's full of this stuff because it doesn't need to ventilate in the womb. Speaker: 01:18:46 and now it's out of the womb and it's still got this thing Speaker: 01:18:48 that's turning this off. Speaker: 01:18:49 And that's why you gotta use the ventilator. Speaker: 01:18:51 So use a procedure or start developing, uh, drugs that Speaker: 01:18:55 reverse these neuro steroids. Speaker: 01:18:58 And then the last one is that we saw, uh, and I had a get a little video Speaker: 01:19:03 and the university had me do it. Speaker: 01:19:05 And uh, and I was talking about these abnormal behavior and people would come up Speaker: 01:19:10 and tell me about their kids with autism that had diff, you know, difficult verses Speaker: 01:19:14 or, uh, you know, uh, cesarean sections. Speaker: 01:19:17 And then the kid developed autism and, and that is a risk factor for autism. Speaker: 01:19:21 And there is a paper showing in kids 10 and 12 years old in saliva that Speaker: 01:19:26 they have four of the neuro steroids that are elevated in the dummy fold. Speaker: 01:19:29 They're actually elevated in these kids in the saliva. Speaker: 01:19:33 So they may end up actually not fully transitioning consciousness at birth. Speaker: 01:19:37 And I'm wondering if some subset of kids with autism, that's what's going on. Speaker: 01:19:43 I was, uh, Laughing during your POTS discussion or Simply because Speaker: 01:19:49 I'm in the process of diagnosis and treatment for hyper, hyper adrenaline Speaker: 01:19:57 pots, and it is, it's a mind trip. Speaker: 01:20:01 Yeah, for sure. Speaker: 01:20:02 And realizing what an impact it has on your life if your heart rate just Speaker: 01:20:08 goes bonkers was really, uh, yeah. Speaker: 01:20:11 Well, the reason it, it goes bonkers is because your sympathetic nervous Speaker: 01:20:15 system is you, you're like a, you know, a, a small pump on a huge Speaker: 01:20:19 pipe, and those pipes are open. Speaker: 01:20:22 . And when you, when that happens, and this colon, the drug is called chlor. Speaker: 01:20:29 And uh, that's a brand for it. Speaker: 01:20:31 And uh, it's working on another mechanism that is fundamental to this pots thing. Speaker: 01:20:37 And all pots in my, when I've seen this and Reddit, that, that the Speaker: 01:20:42 reason you're reason your heart rate goes up is because it's hyper auric. Speaker: 01:20:45 Yeah. Speaker: 01:20:46 A adrenaline's keeping you alive, you know, because, and then it's screwing with Speaker: 01:20:50 your brain and your fight and flight or flight system shutting off the perfusion Speaker: 01:20:54 to your gut and doing all these things. Speaker: 01:20:56 So this, this medication, uh, could be very, very useful Speaker: 01:21:01 and it was very hard to get. Speaker: 01:21:04 And there's a subset, there's a, a paper on, uh, 26 case, uh, case Speaker: 01:21:08 with pots treated with this, uh, uh, uh, with this medication. Speaker: 01:21:13 And, uh, it's working on a, on a channel that's screwed up. Speaker: 01:21:17 And, uh, women have it more than men. Speaker: 01:21:21 It's postviral a lot of times. Speaker: 01:21:23 And then it shuts off the normal regulation of your Speaker: 01:21:25 autonomic nervous system. Speaker: 01:21:27 So when you stand up, you're like a column of water rather Speaker: 01:21:30 than everything integrating. Speaker: 01:21:32 And, uh, and then if it, your blood pressure starts go low, uh, Speaker: 01:21:36 adrenaline's gonna keep you up, keep you, you know, for going. Speaker: 01:21:39 So that means your

heart rate goes through the roof. Speaker: 01:21:42 My daughters would go up to 140, 160 standing up, you know, Speaker: 01:21:45 and now it doesn't happen. Speaker: 01:21:48 She's out moving hay and doing things. Speaker: 01:21:50 You know, this week, this is one week on this thing. Speaker: 01:21:53 And, uh, it was a massive thing to get through there in tracks Speaker: 01:21:57 is, is a small trial and get the insurance, but that's a breakthrough. Speaker: 01:22:01 Uh, very exciting to see somebody's life return. Speaker: 01:22:04 Well, and it's, it's good to see. Speaker: 01:22:07 Getting past this, you know? Speaker: 01:22:09 Well, it's all in your head. Speaker: 01:22:10 Well, of course, anything that's ruled by hormones is in your head. Speaker: 01:22:14 That's, you know, I think a lot of, a lot of clinicians have a really Speaker: 01:22:20 hard time with anything that they can't actually, you know, poke at. Speaker: 01:22:23 And so if they don't have a good way to test for it, it's just not a thing. Speaker: 01:22:29 Yep. Speaker: 01:22:29 And it's, yep. Speaker: 01:22:30 I think we're just starting to see some really exciting research. Speaker: 01:22:34 Hormones, the new auto automo, autonomic nervous system and all of that. Speaker: 01:22:37 So it's, it's interesting to see where it's gonna go. Speaker: 01:22:41 Yeah. Speaker: 01:22:42 Yeah. Speaker: 01:22:42 It, I don't think there's a more complicated system. Speaker: 01:22:45 I mean, it's easier to go to the moon and back than figure out how your Speaker: 01:22:49 autonomic nervous system integrates. Speaker: 01:22:51 Every movement, you see all these computers that do to get a guy's Speaker: 01:22:54 arm to move this way and that way well try standing up, walking Speaker: 01:22:57 around, moving, running your heart, running your gut, you know, hello. Speaker: 01:23:01 You know, uh, this is complex stuff and if you're lucky enough Speaker: 01:23:04 to target that one, and a lot of things are, are, you know, channels. Speaker: 01:23:08 That's how this squeeze works. Speaker: 01:23:11 It actually opens up the chloride channel, we think, in the GA receptor, Speaker: 01:23:14 which is the one that, that, uh, Valium and barbiturates work on. Speaker: 01:23:18 So when you put that thing. Speaker: 01:23:20 it opens up this gated movement, just like throwing a switch and they go to sleep. Speaker: 01:23:24 Mm-hmm. Speaker: 01:23:25 . And then when you remove it, the gate closes and the ions readjust and Speaker: 01:23:30 you wake up and it's instantaneous. Speaker: 01:23:32 So that's all gated movement of ions. Speaker: 01:23:35 And this new drug works on this one channel for moving these Speaker: 01:23:38 irons around, but it's fixing the peripheral circulation as well. Speaker: 01:23:41 So it's, uh, uh, very excited about that. Speaker: 01:23:47 All right. Speaker: 01:23:47 So our last real question here, I guess we ask all of our guests, if you were Speaker: 01:23:51 going to dominate a category at the county fair, and it can be a real one or you Speaker: 01:23:55 can make up one to, you know, make sure that you win, what category would it be? Speaker: 01:24:03 Oh, I saw that question on there and, uh, I, I was, uh, I, it Speaker: 01:24:08 didn't come to me right away. Speaker: 01:24:10 Uh, uh, , I don't, I don't know. Speaker: 01:24:16 I would, I would probably, uh, have something for kids to learn about Speaker: 01:24:23 veterinary medicine, and I wouldn't care whether I won some award, but Speaker: 01:24:28 talk to kids that are thinking about it, but don't feel they could do it. Speaker: 01:24:35 I like Speaker: 01:24:35 that they can always become recreational veterinarians, like Speaker: 01:24:40 the rest of us livestock farmers. Speaker: 01:24:42 That's how I like to think. Speaker: 01:24:43 Yeah. Speaker: 01:24:43 But you can also tell 'em, you know, I struggled with this. Speaker: 01:24:47 So here's the things you can do is, number one, don't give up and then, Speaker: 01:24:52 you know, learn how to study, learn how to do a few things and, uh, you Speaker: 01:24:57 know, you can reach your dreams. Speaker: 01:24:59 Did you ever consider being a small animal vet or was that never on the table? Speaker: 01:25:03 Yeah, I actually, when I, uh, graduated, I moved to Ukiah and, Speaker: 01:25:10 uh, the only, the guy that hired me did nothing but small animal. Speaker: 01:25:14 And I, I'd done the, uh, The dude, ranch, children's camp stuff and then stayed Speaker: 01:25:20 in touch with the owners of that place. Speaker: 01:25:22 We had 60 horses there and I'd take care of 'em in the Speaker: 01:25:24 winter and I knew those people. Speaker: 01:25:26 So I wanted to go back to Mendocino County where I spent all my time. Speaker: 01:25:29 It was very rural, so I, I saw small animals there and, uh, Speaker: 01:25:34 it was really a lot of fun. Speaker: 01:25:36 There was no referral clinic, so you, you man, you took care of everything and you Speaker: 01:25:40 could pin femurs and, and you get help cuz this guy had been doing stuff a lot, Speaker: 01:25:45 so, you know, you're on emergency duty and hit by cars and things like that. Speaker: 01:25:51 And, uh, so it, it was a lot of fun actually, uh, doing that. Speaker: 01:25:54 And then I started building up enough, uh, you know, large animals, Speaker: 01:25:59 you know, sheep, cattle, goats, a lot of, lot of horses stuff. Speaker: 01:26:02 And then the, uh, I bill to put a barn behind the clinic and, and then, Speaker: 01:26:06 uh, sold that when I got, Job offer over there, but I, I really enjoyed Speaker: 01:26:11 the, uh, small animal stuff too. Speaker: 01:26:12 And, uh, you, you never know what your comes through the door there.

Speaker: 01:26:16 And, uh, so it was, it was exciting and fun. Speaker: 01:26:18 I will, we're gonna ahead go ahead and move into our cussing, Speaker: 01:26:21 cussing and discussing segment. Speaker: 01:26:23 So this is kind of a free for all of whatever we wanna talk Speaker: 01:26:26 about on any given episode. Speaker: 01:26:27 And listeners can enter there cussing and discussing entries. Speaker: 01:26:31 If you go to the show notes, you'll find either our speak pipe or you Speaker: 01:26:34 can leave us a voice memo or an email address and we'll read it out for you. Speaker: 01:26:39 Katie, what are you cussing and discussing this week? Speaker: 01:26:42 So, you know, I have a, a newly six year old child and I swear to God that Speaker: 01:26:49 kid brings home an entire rema paper from school every day, which is its own Speaker: 01:26:55 thing, but she rolls them up sheet by. Speaker: 01:27:00 she can't, I mean, she has a folder, she has a backpack, but instead Speaker: 01:27:04 she rolls them up and then she folds them in half and puts them in Speaker: 01:27:08 the front pocket of her backpack. Speaker: 01:27:10 And when that pocket is literally jammed full, then she starts putting them in Speaker: 01:27:15 the main pocket of her backpack, but she still rolls them into a tube and folds Speaker: 01:27:20 them, and then puts them in the pocket. Speaker: 01:27:22 So it's like a bunch of tiny Speaker: 01:27:24 diplomas. Speaker: 01:27:25 Yeah, kind of. Speaker: 01:27:26 But it'll be kind, you know, 25 drawings and then that one paper that needs a Speaker: 01:27:32 signature, or she's gonna get kicked outta kindergarten, and that's just gonna be Speaker: 01:27:35 the end of academic career right there. Speaker: 01:27:37 I, I don't know. Speaker: 01:27:39 It's, and I asked her why she did it, and she looked at me Speaker: 01:27:43 like, what else would I do? Speaker: 01:27:46 And I just, okay. Speaker: 01:27:49 Like I, I don't want to be that mom who's like, you know, crushing her little tiny Speaker: 01:27:54 baby spirit, but also, What the hell? Speaker: 01:27:59 Hey children. Speaker: 01:28:00 Yeah. Speaker: 01:28:01 And are they all vitally important to her? Speaker: 01:28:03 Do you have to keep everything or you Uh, yes. Speaker: 01:28:05 Sneak the art there. Speaker: 01:28:06 The back door. Speaker: 01:28:07 Oh yes. Speaker: 01:28:07 Yeah. Speaker: 01:28:08 Very important. Speaker: 01:28:08 Yes. Speaker: 01:28:09 We lost a pompom off one the other day and the cat took it and it was, it was bad. Speaker: 01:28:15 . Uh, it was a crisis. Speaker: 01:28:16 Yeah. Speaker: 01:28:18 Alright. Speaker: 01:28:18 So my cussing and discussing for this week is the fact that the more people Speaker: 01:28:23 we talk to, and I realize this after our mind blowing episode today, the Speaker: 01:28:28 more people we

talk to, the more I realize how much I don't know, which Speaker: 01:28:32 is fantastic because there's so much in the world to understand, but also Speaker: 01:28:35 frustrating because it's all out there and I can't get it all in my Speaker: 01:28:39 brain and I don't know so much stuff. Speaker: 01:28:41 So it's probably a ha ha, what is it? Speaker: 01:28:45 Glass half empty, half full situation where depending on the day, it's both Speaker: 01:28:49 exciting or frustrating that there's so much information out there that Speaker: 01:28:53 you just can't even process it all. Speaker: 01:28:57 . That's a good Speaker: 01:28:57 one. Speaker: 01:28:57 Arlene. Speaker: 01:29:00 John, do you have anything to share with us? Speaker: 01:29:01 Anything bugging you these days or are we, uh, we're gonna sign off for this week? Speaker: 01:29:07 Uh, no, I don't think so. Speaker: 01:29:09 I think, uh, uh, you know, the more, uh, you get towards the PM of life, I think Speaker: 01:29:18 you realize you don't know all this stuff. Speaker: 01:29:20 You don't know. Speaker: 01:29:21 I mean, Jesus. Speaker: 01:29:23 And, uh, and, and things are often a little more complicated, you know, Speaker: 01:29:27 than, than you think, but that doesn't prevent, you know, some things from Speaker: 01:29:31 happening that are good and then being able to completely, uh, you Speaker: 01:29:36 know, assimilate or understand that, you know, sometimes it takes a while. Speaker: 01:29:39 But, uh, no, I think, and then ideas, new ideas take a long time to get Speaker: 01:29:45 into, uh, . In fact, you know, uh, the, the way that these, I'm gonna Speaker: 01:29:50 try to do a survey to find out how many animals around the world. Speaker: 01:29:54 I know there's a lot of different countries doing it. Speaker: 01:29:56 I got one from Iran the other day. Speaker: 01:29:58 They're doing the squeeze thing. Speaker: 01:29:59 So this, the fact that it hits social media, they're not getting, the Speaker: 01:30:04 owners of the animals are not getting educated on this from veterinarians. Speaker: 01:30:08 They're actually a veterinarian that be me, put something on the Speaker: 01:30:11 internet that had some science bases to it and then shared it. Speaker: 01:30:15 And that's the new way that a lot of things are being learned. Speaker: 01:30:20 So that's a, and and it used to be you, your vet would tell you Speaker: 01:30:23 this or tell you that it's, it's, it's going too fast for that. Speaker: 01:30:28 And in fact, it's better because, uh, there's a broader audience, especially Speaker: 01:30:32 if it's something you can do yourself to help a particular situation. Speaker: 01:30:38 So I think that's the value of the, uh, internet, social media, if it's used. Speaker: 01:30:44 in a positive way. Speaker: 01:30:45 It can be problem solving. Speaker: 01:30:46 Solving.

Speaker: 01:30:47 Yeah. Speaker: 01:30:47 That's a point. Speaker: 01:30:48 So that's all I'd say is that, uh, Speaker: 01:30:49 yeah, cuz like you said, it's, it's something that you can do, that you Speaker: 01:30:53 can fix for the, for the person who is looking at an animal and thinking, Speaker: 01:30:56 well, it's probably going to die. Speaker: 01:30:59 You know, this is, this is something that you can try and you don't, if Speaker: 01:31:02 you can't afford for the vet to come or you don't, don't feel like there, Speaker: 01:31:06 it's gonna be any help, then yeah. Speaker: 01:31:08 You've, you've got something at your disposal that you can at least give it a Speaker: 01:31:11 shot, right? Speaker: 01:31:14 Yeah. Speaker: 01:31:14 Yeah. Speaker: 01:31:15 Yeah. Speaker: 01:31:15 And I think if we could get more of that, you know, and then make Speaker: 01:31:20 that accessible to the subgroups or whatever, that would utilize it, uh, Speaker: 01:31:25 that would be a positive, uh, thing. Speaker: 01:31:29 It's a, it's a sort of a, uh, telemedicine without the doctor Speaker: 01:31:35 Yeah, that's great. Speaker: 01:31:35 But Speaker: 01:31:36 it's telling you something to do. Speaker: 01:31:39 Yeah. Speaker: 01:31:39 Yeah, we don't always wanna search our own symptoms up on the internet. Speaker: 01:31:42 But yeah, if there , there's, there's ways to, there's to get help out Speaker: 01:31:46 there if you, you know where to look and what's what's safe to try. Speaker: 01:31:50 So Katie and I wanna thank you so much for joining us here today, and if Speaker: 01:31:54 people want to find out more about you and your work, where should they find Speaker: 01:31:58 you online? Speaker: 01:32:01 Well, I don't know. Speaker: 01:32:02 I don't have my own website. Speaker: 01:32:04 I have, uh, you know, uh, the manual of Equine neonatal Medicine. Speaker: 01:32:09 I guess we have a website there. Speaker: 01:32:10 And then the Equine and Comparative Neurology Group, I'm still in that Speaker: 01:32:14 uc Davis, uh, in, uh, you know, my emails, j Madigan uc, davis do edu if Speaker: 01:32:22 somebody has some questions or wants, uh, something, you know, sent that way. Speaker: 01:32:26 And my company that, uh, our little company, it's an LLC so Speaker: 01:32:29 that we can pay our taxes and do everything is loops rescue.com. Speaker: 01:32:34 And you could send a message, uh, to me there and. Speaker: 01:32:38 , whatnot. Speaker: 01:32:38 So that, that might be one way of doing it. Speaker: 01:32:41 Yeah, Speaker: 01:32:42 that's perfect. Speaker: 01:32:42 Thank you so much Speaker: 01:32:43 for joining. Speaker: 01:32:44 Yeah. Speaker: 01:32:44 Well it's been a pleasure and uh, nice meeting you. Speaker: 01:32:47 And Speaker: 01:32:47 we won't start lambing for a few more weeks, but once we do, I'll Speaker: 01:32:50 get some videos cuz I'm sure we'll have at least one lamb. Speaker: 01:32:54 It'll need squeezed. Speaker: 01:32:55 And if we don't have any that need it, I'll find one and do it anyway. Speaker: 01:33:00 Just , because it'll be a hell of finding a calf, so. Speaker: 01:33:04 That's Speaker: 01:33:05 right. Speaker: 01:33:06 Yeah. Speaker: 01:33:06 All right, well, great, great, uh, visiting with both of you and take care. Speaker: 01:33:10 Great. Speaker: 01:33:10 Great. Speaker: 01:33:10 Thanks John. Speaker: 01:33:11 Thank you so much. Speaker: 01:33:11 Thank you for joining us today on Barnyard Language. Speaker: 01:33:14 If you enjoy the show, we encourage you to support us by becoming a patron. Speaker: 01:33:18 Go to www.patreon.com/barnyard language to make a small monthly donation to Speaker: 01:33:24 help cover the cost of making a show. Speaker: 01:33:27 Please write and review the podcast and follow the show Speaker: 01:33:30 so you never miss an episode. Speaker: 01:33:32 You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok as barnyard language. Speaker: 01:33:36 And on Twitter we are Barnyard Pod. Speaker: 01:33:38 If you'd like to connect with other farming families, you can join our Speaker: 01:33:41 private barnyard language Facebook group. Speaker: 01:33:44 We're always in search of future guests for the podcast. Speaker: 01:33:47 If you or someone you know would like to chat with us, get in touch. Speaker: 01:33:50 We are a proud member of the Positively Farming Media Podcast Network.