תעתיק 🔗
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So we have this very special yeast that, instead of making alcohol or making bread, it makes fats and oils, so just like very similar to palm oil or animal fats and like the cool, sustainable part of it.
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Besides, the fermentation part is that we are using side streams from industries that we feed the yeast and it's produced fats and oils.
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So we're trying to make it like a circular economy process.
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Welcome to another Climate Tech Podcast interviews with the people trying to save us from ourselves.
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Nemailla Bonturi is the co-founder of Ayo, an Estonian startup making fats and oils from fermentation.
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She's a scientist turned entrepreneur, whose advanced research into yeast is going to result in a healthier environment and diet for all of us.
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We talked about the company Estonia and the X-Files.
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I reached Nemailla in Tallinn.
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I'm Ryan Grant.
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Little Thanks for being here, Nemailla.
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welcome to the podcast Hi Ryan, Happy to be here.
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You are the co-founder of IO, a startup working to replace the unsustainable fats and oils out there with high quality substitutes.
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Where did you get the idea for this company?
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Well, it started a long time ago when I was doing my PhD and I started working with this very fantastic microbe.
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Of course, back in the day, I didn't think about the company, because us scientists are not trained to monetize our findings.
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So it was when I moved to Estonia and I started getting in contact with this amazing environment of startups, of trying to push things and not being afraid of starting and failing companies, that then we decided to expand out from the university and then started IO three years ago.
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And I want to come back to Estonia as well, because Estonia as a country gets huge representation on this podcast, and maybe you can help unlock why that is.
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You're using fermentation to create these products, so the same process that makes beer and yogurt and stuff like that.
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Can you talk about the process itself, how you're making this stuff, what you're using as feedstocks or like the inputs?
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Yeah, so we have this very special yeast that, instead of making alcohol or making bread, it makes fats and oils, so just like very similar to palm oil or animal fats and like the cool, sustainable part of it.
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Besides, the fermentation part is that we are using side streams from industries that we feed the yeast and it's produced fats and oil.
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So we're trying to make it like a circular economy process.
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So when you say a very special yeast, this means that you have, through your research, identified a particular yeast that does this, or I mean, maybe talk to us a bit about the world of yeasts.
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There are different ones out there.
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It's not all yeasts are the same.
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There are different strains of it, and so how did you isolate and identify this one that works particularly well for fats and oils?
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Yeah, there's like a very vast diversity of yeast doing pretty amazing things out there.
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So this one I didn't isolate myself, but I took it from a bank of microbes and then I saw its industrial potential and then, as all these environments where you have this scale up or you're using side streams, let's say it requires a very tolerant microbe.
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So, like my work as a scientist is starting by making this microbe even more tolerant so it can keep very high yields and production, even in a thousand cubic meters or 100 cubic meters, and also by being able to keep this ability of turning side streams, because they're not like just pure sugar or just pure molasses.
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It really requires the yeast to be very resistant.
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And is the company a direct outcome or output of the scientific work you were doing, of your studies?
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Yes, most of it.
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I would say yes, of course, after we got into contact with investors and we start being like, let's say, a more professional company and not just two lost scientists trying to make business.
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Of course, some ideas have pivoted and got stronger, but I would say 99% is still about our research.
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99% is still about our research.
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Let's stick with the inputs, the feedstocks.
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You mentioned that this is like agricultural side streams.
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What are they specifically and how do you capture them?
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Or I mean, are you buying them?
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Are you getting paid to take them?
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So it depends on the type of substrate and we are trying to be as agnostic as possible, because our business model will be one of them will be licensing, because our business model will be one of them will be licensing.
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So we need to.
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Our technology needs to be versatile to reach any company that is interested in valorizing their side streams.
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Currently, we have worked with wood sugars.
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So in Estonia there is
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a huge partner company called Fibano, where they have this amazing technology to extract sugars from sawdust, so we are using the sugars from this leftover sawdust.
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We can work with leftovers from beverage industry, like tea leaves, brewer, spent grain.
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We have worked with the side streams from bakery industries, so leftover bread, for example, which is a huge amount that they have.
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We can work with molasses as well, very well, also from dairy industry, so whey or lactose permate.
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So it's a very wide range, and we have been also now tackling some side streams from corn and from confectionery industry.
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Okay, so it sounds like it's mainly from the food industry, except perhaps for wood.
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How do you kind of like make sure that the inputs are consistent, are clean, Like how do you manage that process?
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Yes.
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So as most of them, as you said, comes from food industry, then it's easier to have, let's say, this food grade product.
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So of course, when we receive the side stream, we process it to remove any other type of microbes.
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So we are sure that only our microbe is present and basically that's mostly what we process.
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And then we have this very nice team of scientists and we managed to build in-house these high throughput platforms since changing the yeast to trying new side streams, and we can do it using very little amount of substrate.
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So 10 milliliters is already enough for us to start doing all our assessment of their viability.
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The value chain then starts with these food companies and agri-food.
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Then you have customers that you're potentially selling this to as end consumers and you also have licensees potentially right, as you said, you want to license the technology to have on site somewhere.
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If someone were to say who's your customer, how would you answer that?
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And is it multiple types of customers?
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Yes, we're mainly B2B.
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We're focusing on either providing our fats and oils as an ingredient, but we understand that having one huge factory somewhere and then transporting the ingredient to the world is not sustainable.
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So that's why we have this licensing model, where it's best in terms of CO2 mitigation to have our technology closer to the substrate.
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So in a perfect world, a couple of years from now, maybe you have this like industrial scale bakery that's producing their own plant-based butter at the same time through fermentation.
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Exactly or also using in the bread formulation.
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So it's possible to substitute rapeseed oil, for example, or palm oil in bread production by using our ingredients.
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And how are the ingredients performing now?
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So you probably have like more of the bench scale right now, but how would this compare to like a plant oil or a seed oil or a lard or something like that?
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So we have an in-house chef and also scientists in the product development and they have been doing very amazing recipes.
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So the product performed very well in the bakery.
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So they have done several different types of breads, cookies, chocolate we had a pretty amazing results with chocolate in in a way of alternative, not only to the butter part but also to the cacao part, because one of our products has roasted flavor and this was very interesting for us.
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So also in the alternative meat space, we have been developing alternative dairy as well.
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So it's very versatile and we have been having very, very good results on that.
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And also in cosmetics.
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We also have a cosmetic specialist and she has been working also in developing moisturizers, lip balms and creams or moisturizer for hair.
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So very versatile, I would say.
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So very versatile, I would say.
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I think there's a huge benefit for when a company can justify for business reasons having an in-house chef.
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There's probably lots of fringe benefits to that as well, especially if one of your products that you're testing is chocolate.
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Yes, and it's pretty cool that he has a very diverse background.
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So he's a Japanese descendant, born in Canada, came to Estonia and is cooking this Nordic cuisine.
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So he's done it all and he has a very scientific mind.
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So he doesn't know, but he always writes down recipes, results, so we always tell him that he's a scientist in his heart.
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The old Japan, Canada, Estonia route in order to cook Nordic food Classic.
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What's wrong with the fats and oils that we use right now?
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So if I think of like palm oil lard For our listeners, who love some palm oil and love lard, what should they know about the environmental impacts of these products or health as well?
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Yeah Well, so let's start with animal farming.
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So I guess everyone is aware that they are huge contributors to CO2 deforestation.
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Well, I'm from Brazil and I know that big chunks of Amazonia is being cut down for animal farming illegally, and this has been happening in several different countries.
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Also, palm oil the need for large areas for cultivation.
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It's also taking down large chunks of rainforests or other natural, let's say, forests in each country.
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So, animal farming, lots of CO2, lots of area, lots of water, and while we're using plantations, it's also taking a toll in the diversity and deforestation.
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And so that's from the environmental standpoint.
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Can you talk a little bit about kind of the nutritional standpoint standpoint?
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Can you talk a little bit about kind of the nutritional standpoint?
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Are your products total exact kind of analogs to this from a nutritional profile, or are they better?
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Yeah, so so far, in order to like to claim that our products are healthier, we're still conducting in-house and outsourcing, like all these tests that we need.
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But we have, according to their chemical compositions and how much we are adding in the food formulations, we have a good idea that they have nutritional benefits.
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So, for example, they increase the amount of fibers, proteins and decreasing the caloric level because they can perform as a fat, but with more increased benefits because it's the whole yeast, for example, and we know that we do not have any trans fats in our profile.
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And, of course, in the pipeline of our new products, we are also developing oils that are richer in omega-3 antioxidants.
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So by the chemistry, we can expect that they will have more nutritional effect, but I cannot claim before we can perform this.
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No footnotes required for this podcast.
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Yes, as you mentioned, you're originally from Brazil and you're a scientist in Brazil, moved to I mean, I'll say Scandinavia broadly, because you weren't just in Estonia, continued your academic career there and then founded IO.
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Can you talk a little bit just about what that journey was, both geographically but also the switch from academic to founder?
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yes, well, the first time I saw is knowing my life.
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I was 30 years old.
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I left the airport and it was super snowy outside and I was like a kid touching there's no, secretly tasting.
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There's no, not from the ground.
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And you're wondering why it's so dark at 2.30 PM.
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Yes, yes, so, culturally and geographically, I guess it was a 60 degrees difference.
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So Brazil was 40 minus 20 where I landed first.
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But yes, I was a scientist in Brazil.
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I finished my PhD in 2016.
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And it was exactly when I was not very happy with the political situation that I started there.
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Well, when certain type of people get into power, we know that they will deny science.
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They will make your country go 50 years or a hundred back.
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Yeah, in the back.
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So yeah, especially for science.
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So I decided to move to Europe and then I started searching for positions around Europe and then, well, I found this position in Estonia.
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That pretty much was what I liked to do, and I was good at doing so.
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By a process synthetic biology I applied, and then one month later I entered the plane and then I got there, Just had a few times for some Googling to see how Estonia was after the Soviet Union Seemed okay.
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And then now it's been eight years that I'm there and it's a pretty cool place, and before Estonia I would never think about becoming a founder.
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I think it's the bug they have here.
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More unicorns per capita, I think, than any other place in the world.
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The entire population of Estonia is about the same as the city of Milan and I mean, even if I just look at this podcast, I've had, you know, a number of people from Estonia on here.
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Why do you think that?
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So, when you say you know you never would have considered becoming a founder if it weren't for Estonia, why do you think that is?
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So, as I said, like during my whole time just being as a scientist, no one showed me that, besides doing really great science, you can also think and not be afraid to start something, some startup.
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And in Estonia, besides this amazing environment where you can easily just grab a coffee with any other founder or an investor, so people are very open and reachable and the whole government and the universities here.
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They have this structure that fosters this.
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So they bring for example, we were in the university they brought investors.
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Investors talked oh you have a really nice idea, why don't you start a company?
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And then you talk with other founders and then they were like, yes, just open it.
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If you fail, you fail.
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You fail.
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It's investors money, not yours as an investor, I find that terrifying.
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But yeah, I can see why.
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I can see why that's good for founders but, like it gives you the courage because as a scientist, you're so afraid of failing.
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But uh, you just learn not to be afraid.
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It's's some people they have, I don't know, they're in their fifth startup.
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Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that, also, as a scientist, you, like, you need these levels of exactness and perfection or, like you know, these assurances, whereas in the startup world, as you've surely discovered, it's kind of like, I mean, you're, you're just, you know, walking in the dark.
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Every you can see maybe a meter in front of you, and that's it.
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Yeah, definitely, and I think you learn to be bolder, I would say, in this startup community and also the government has several grants, they have several accelerators or they really give support and they really want the startups to be successful here.
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You've talked a lot about on the topic of women in STEM.
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So science, technology, engineering and math, if I remember the acronym correctly and some of the challenges that you faced there, and I came across the term this term, which I now totally love and will use in the future the Scully effect.
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Can you talk a bit about what that is and to what extent you're a product of it?
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Yes, so I'm a very lucky person that when I was like 10 years old or like nine eight person, that when I was like 10 years old or like nine, eight, so I was, I was always like cinema geek addicted girl.
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And then I always felt, even though I was a kid, I always felt there was a lack of strong female characters, so there were not like not many heroes or like they were mostly romantic partners in the movie.
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And then I think it was 93 or 94, we had the DX Files, this TV show where Scully is this FBI agent who has a PhD or two, I don't remember.
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I think she has, I think, two PhDs and she's this scientist that also kicks ass and she's a very strong character and is portrayed by Gillian Anderson and this type of representation.
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Years later, a decade later, there was some study and that after this character, the amount of females going to STEM increased a lot and they saw that this character, Scully, was one that pushed them or encouraged them or made them see the amazing part of STEM and they went.
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That's why this is the Scully effect and I'm a very proud part of it.
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Gillian Anderson, if you ever listen to this podcast, please hug me.
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Oh yeah, she's a regular listener.
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Yeah, I never missed an
episode of it as a kid.
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I totally love the X-Files and if there are any Gen Z listeners, stop watching Friends and start watching the X-Files Much, much better television.
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Yes, you've also been very vocal about the need for startup founders to take care of themselves and protect their mental health.
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Why do you feel the need to speak up about that topic?
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I think most people, and including me in the beginning we think that mental health, like you, have to be strong, like all the time, and like taking care of mental health or saying that you are not feeling okay, I'm feeling overwhelmed, this is a sign of weakness, and it's not.
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It's like you cannot perform well if your mindset is not there as well, if your mental health is not okay.
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And this is not only to founders, I mean to everyone.
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Like, if you're tired, like you cannot push it, just take a break.
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Just if you feel anxious, talk to a therapist.
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Because it's very common you have so much to do like so much to achieve, so much pressure everywhere to succeed.
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And I think in the beginning, for me, the transition to scientist, to like to entrepreneurship it was not my skin, so this process of transitioning to this skin was super, brought me a lot of anxiety.
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Until my best friend she told me look, you're not normal, go talk to a therapist.
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You should.
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You're overworked, you're overly tired, you're not like laughing anymore.
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And then it's been two years, I'm in therapy and I also have been learning to put boundaries.
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So I try every day.
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I work from eight in the morning to six, then I stop, I close my computer.
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It doesn't matter.
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Of course there are some days that you actually need, but I try to make it a really rare exception, or weekends.
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I do not work anymore unless it's like a matter of life or death, but I think it's good to put boundaries.
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I think that's really good advice for founders who are listening as well.
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And culturally, we do ourselves no favors because, whether it's social media or LinkedIn or, I don't know, fast Company and Wired, you kind of see these like you know, everyone is making it look so easy and it's kind of like oh, I had this idea, I started it and now I'm a billionaire and you know that's, of course, not the usual way of things.
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So being able to talk frankly and honestly, founder to founder out there, I think is really important, and I always tell you know I'm a founder by background and I always tell founders to like make sure you have a community of other founders that you can talk to and that you can be open to, because it's not, you know, your friends might not understand, your partner or family might not understand your like.
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Vc investors are probably not the people to talk to about this.
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It's other founders who have been through it, who are going through it, who are the best kind of sounding boards and friends to talk with this stuff about.
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You have recently closed a round at IO, a funding round.
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Congratulations on that.
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What does the year ahead look like?
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Are you building up?
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Are you hiring?
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What are you going to spend the money on?
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I always tell investors this joke that I'm going to run away to Brazil with their money.
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Now they're not very happy.
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Too late now, yeah, and Netflix is going to make a documentary about me no, but I seriously speaking now.
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So I think now it's time.
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We have been growing exponentially, but now I think it's this inflection point where we really need to be like this hog stick and outperform the first three years.
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So with this round, we have a two year runaway and very bold plans.
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So one of them is to be in the market, at least for cosmetics, so regulatory barriers are more feasible.
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But we also, by the end of 2026, we want to have all the permits for this novel food in different countries and to start having so we can start actually licensing our technology.
00:25:34.430 --> 00:25:41.394
So basically, this is our goals and, of course, like we'll fundraise in two years.
00:25:41.394 --> 00:25:52.004
So, investors, please let's start flirting, and we're always interested in bright people and also, like, excited about this topic.
00:25:52.004 --> 00:26:01.784
So if also you are interested in working at IO, please also reach us and even if we don't have a position right now, we will call back.
00:26:02.305 --> 00:26:02.768
That's great.
00:26:02.768 --> 00:26:10.656
So investors with long attention spans, bright people who are interested in the space, and probably potential customers as well, should reach out to you.
00:26:10.656 --> 00:26:15.775
Yes, great, I'll, as always, put your contact information in the show notes.
00:26:15.775 --> 00:26:17.339
Nemailla, it's super cool what you're doing.
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Thanks a lot for talking today.
00:26:18.863 --> 00:26:20.516
Yeah, thanks a lot, it was a pleasure.
00:26:22.339 --> 00:26:24.685
Thanks for listening to another Climate Tech Podcast.
00:26:24.685 --> 00:26:28.478
It would mean a lot if you would subscribe, rate and share this podcast.
00:26:28.478 --> 00:26:35.589
Get in touch anytime with tips and guest recommendations at hello at climatetechpodcom.
00:26:35.589 --> 00:26:38.923
Find me, ryan Grant Little, on LinkedIn.
00:26:38.923 --> 00:26:41.601
I'll be back with another episode next week.
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Bye for now.