התמלול המלא של Co-Pilot with Rob Hatch - Reframe Your Retrospective: Focus More on Learning from Success

of the germ of that is I like to look at and reflect on what worked far more than I like to look at uh my failures. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:57.519 But more than that, the lessons that come from figuring out why something worked and how you did what you did are far more important than just don't do that thing again uh when you fail. 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:00.399 Yeah, that's fantastic. 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:07.439 Um, there's so many places I could go with that that description too, um, in in our work and kind of what what you think about. 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:16.879 So, you know, your argument in that book is that learning from failure leaves us with a list of what we should avoid rather than a way forward, right? 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:22.000 So uh in Agile, our teams often do what's called a retrospective, right? 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:26.079 So they look back and oftentimes they focus on the failures, right? 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.920 What went wrong is where they get their improvements from. 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.759 Um, what are the real costs of that failure first orientation? 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:36.319 What do you what do you think on that? 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:47.600 I I think again, I think the the cost is that we end up giving more of the time to examining a failure when we're when there are so many things, it doesn't give us much to build on. 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:54.800 Again, I think you're just identifying what what not to do and and saying, well, I don't want to do that again. 00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:14.720 Uh the lesson is really gonna come after you've succeeded, and then you reflect on that process, and then you have this framework for you know, it's not exactly you, you you're not gonna apply it every single time in the exact same way, but the framework, the components of it, what what were the conditions that made us successful? 00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.240 What were the set of operations that we that made us successful? 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.560 And and what are the actions that we took? 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:21.759 How did we approach it? 00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:28.319 And so those operations, the conditions, the approach or actions, I think that is so much juice there. 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:32.079 So the cost I think is that it's time and and dwelling on it. 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.680 There's another cost too in examining failure. 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:42.399 Um, one of the reasons that it doesn't stick is because uh we it's an ego threat, right? 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:54.480 No matter how much we want to say, you know, we learn from we learn people say we learn best from from failure or we think we know that it's a good thing, we don't like to sit there in our failure for too long. 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:55.920 It just doesn't feel good. 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:56.480 Sure. 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:59.519 So I think there's a there's a cost there as well. 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:07.040 And when you start working with a team, just no matter what the culture's like, I think it's still really hard to avoid that ego threat. 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:07.920 Yeah, that's right. 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:16.319 I really like that actually, because you know, in many environments, cultures, and organizations, they're afraid of failure. 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:20.720 Um, so trying to get people to learn from failure is a difficult thing. 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:29.040 So if if we get them to learn from iterating on success, right, and making small incremental improvements and then learning from it. 00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:42.000 So what I take away from this for people that might listen to this podcast is you know, focus more in your retrospectives and things like that on the last improvement you made and how did it work? 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:43.040 Why did it work? 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.040 Could we make a similar improvement in the future? 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:46.079 I really like that. 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:51.519 Um, I have a curious question though that maybe you could answer since you looked at this a lot in the research and stuff. 00:07:51.759 --> 00:08:01.279 Is the pull towards analyzing failure just human nature, or is it something that organizations and processes actually reinforce? 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.600 Where does this pattern come from? 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.680 I I it's a great question. 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:19.680 I don't know that I have a you know sort of well grounded answer in terms of research, though I'm gonna say that I think part of it is this acceptance that failure is the best teacher. 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:22.560 It's not, and again, it's not that there aren't lessons to be learned. 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.160 I don't want to say, you know, you should never talk about it or be afraid of it. 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:30.800 In fact, I think failing over and over again gets you, can can get you there. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:34.799 Um it's just that I don't want to spend too much time examining it. 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:44.000 But that idea has become so pervasive that that's where the lesson lies that I I think we haven't questioned it. 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:48.480 And that's what the intention of the book was was to question that a little bit. 00:08:48.559 --> 00:09:02.399 And and the I think the intention of the research that I ended up finding that maybe we ought to rethink this just a little bit and spend at least as much time in those retrospectives on success as we do failure. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:15.759 I'm not saying avoid it, you shouldn't talk about it or anything like that, but be mindful of where you're putting your energy and what's how valuable really is the examination and the feedback that you're getting in the end. 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:17.519 Yeah, I I I love that. 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:28.000 And I think to transition to sort of some next questions we have, I just one takeaway that I'm

hearing or feeling out of that is how how we frame success will matter. 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:39.120 And I think you've got some questions on that that we're gonna ask today because you know, success doesn't mean I think getting everything right, it means getting something, getting somewhere, and sometimes failure can even be part of the success. 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.240 But I think you have a few curious questions you want to ask about this area. 00:09:42.559 --> 00:09:58.960 Well, but I was just thinking back about what you said for how it's ingrained, and I'm thinking how many different memes or reels or bumper stickers, like all the failure fail fast, fail fast, like all forward, fail, whatever. 00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:02.240 Yeah, like those have to be like are those nails on a chalkboard for you, Rob? 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:03.200 Is that like please? 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:32.159 That's yes, it is, especially with uh you know influencers who who who love to sort of tout that uh, you know, it it's huge in in the fitness community as well, around you know, uh learning from failure or but I you know if if you really examine how like even elite athletes practice, they're trying to get the success so ingrained that it it's like they don't even think about it. 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.720 You don't think about that connection. 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:54.799 Yeah, I love that really is uh, you know, I I mean I hate to use an overuse like you know Tom Brady-esque thing, and I know you guys are not necessarily Patriots fans or anything, but uh um but the the repetition in practice over and over and over again, it in many ways he didn't have to think anymore. 00:10:54.879 --> 00:11:08.559 So there's a little bit of stuff from attention in there that you know that I talked about because I believe I referenced him uh a little bit in there about not making, you know, not having to make the decision and and kind of removing that decision because it's just so automatic. 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:11.120 But what he's trying to do is replicate success. 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.240 And he knows that if I do that this way, more often than not I will succeed. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:21.039 Not every time someone's gonna come out of nowhere and hang interceptable or something, but yeah. 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:23.519 Um maybe about a little bit about them and intercepted. 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:30.960 Yeah, I I use the similar one that came from Effortless, which is a book by Greg McAllen, which talks about uh Michael Phelps' routine, right? 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:34.480 And winning the race is just another success in his routine, right? 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.879 So he does all these steps and every one of those is successful. 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:45.360 So then so I think that's a really interesting thing that teams or individuals can take away from this is you know, I love the put success in your way, I still use it, right? 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:52.240 I, you know, to work out in the morning, I make sure my workout clothes are next to my bed, I make sure that I've got a water bottle next to my bed, like stuff like that. 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.279 So you just get up and it's just part of winning in the morning. 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:56.320 I love that. 00:11:56.399 --> 00:12:06.639 And I think that if teams were looking at just these small incremental successes that they can do every sprint, every week, and then learning from those, like, hey, we did this and it really made us feel good. 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:07.919 What if we did this every day? 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.240 What if we did this every meeting? 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:11.519 Well, those types of things. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:12.000 I like that. 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:12.480 Yeah. 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:17.919 Well, so Eric just walked us right into like what might a success frame look like. 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:21.360 You kind of gave a little peek into one of Rob's stories. 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:26.320 And uh, so let's talk about what is a success frame? 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:28.559 How some how could someone build one? 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.960 What does that mean when you're trying to help someone understand? 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:36.480 Because it's I know you've helped our team to think about it, and it's not their natural go-to. 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:38.799 So give us a high-level explanation. 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:40.159 What is a success frame? 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.759 How would somebody build one? 00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:48.960 So a success frame is basically uh a result of reflective practice. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:53.279 When you stop and ask, what made that thing work? 00:12:53.440 --> 00:13:06.720 Um, so you used, you know, just the example of putting success in your way in the morning and having it, once you've figured out that that was helpful, your brain, I think, my brain at least, starts to think, well, where else can I use this? 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:08.240 Where else can I be ready? 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.720 Where else can I have everything I need ready? 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:21.440 Because if I reflect on what made getting out the door and doing my exercise easy, that you know, that small success, that that that little win. 00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:24.799 So I want to think about what what were the conditions that I set up? 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.159 What were the what's the set of operations that I go through to prepare the night before? 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.000 And what are the actions I need to take? 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:33.919 How how do I want to approach this? 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:45.200 When you're so the idea is to take a win and deconstruct it and figure out what it yeah, what are those conditions, what are the what are the operations and and what was my approach? 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:48.320 How did it, you know, why did that work for me?

00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:56.080 And take that, you know, framework and start to think, where else can I apply this or how can I apply it again? 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:13.519 Um, preparation is just one of those like it it seems so simple and obvious, but the number of times I have to remind myself that when I go into a situation really well prepared, and then I think back, okay, what helps me to be prepared? 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.360 What are the what's the set of what's the success frame for preparation for me? 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:17.679 Right. 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:19.360 I have that. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:28.799 And so I when I know I go through that process, I enter prepared, I'm in a situation and I feel you know so much more confident. 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:42.480 And I know going back to what Eric said about retrospectives as an agile event that many teams go through, they're often answering the questions, what went well, but then they quickly go to what didn't go as planned, what didn't go as well. 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:44.320 And that's where the improvements come from. 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:50.320 And I remember the time that you were with our team and you went through the questions you just asked them. 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.519 Like, and they sort are like, wait, what are you asking? 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:53.919 Right? 00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:02.320 Like this is so it was so different to think about what were those conditions, then tell me what didn't go well. 00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:08.559 Said you broke down, like I think about that very basic retrospective structure, like just basic columns. 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:16.080 You took what went well and asked this whole spider web of questions that made them think about why did they go well? 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.720 What could be repeatable patterns that they could find? 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:26.480 And so, you know, same conversation, like an analyzing actions that a teams happened. 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:43.440 Um, the thing that from the that conversation when you coached my team, one of the things that they still say all the time, they'll reference you and like, okay, so I was thinking about Rob, and I thought, what can today, Beth, do to help tomorrow, Beth? 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:57.120 And right based on what can tonight Rob do to and that was like your workout story, but that idea that if they know their conditions that are making them successful, they can think about how to make themselves successful together. 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:05.519 So when we think about how you're using success frames, how teams are using that idea, finding strengths, thinking about decisions. 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:14.639 Um there's one thing to say, like, hey, we were real, I'm a really good, whatever, I'm a really good baseball player, I'm a really good runner, I'm a really good writer. 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:23.200 So you can be innately good at something versus like, hey, this is

something where like we were successful together or successful as an individual. 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:28.000 Like, what's the difference between skill and talent and like conditions? 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:35.440 So I think skill and talent is um it's a great, first of all, it's a great question. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:54.399 And I I actually I'm gonna pause and go back to just that retrospective story for a second, in the sense that I want to hit this point of how quickly we go from so what went well, and we'll list off like this went well, and this one well, this went well, and then we go so quickly into the what went well. 00:16:54.480 --> 00:17:06.400 Yeah, immediately the laundry list comes out so easy, but it really is catching yourself in that moment of retrospective retrospection and reflection to say, all right, why did it go well? 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.759 Just even that one question, what made it go well? 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:10.799 What did you do? 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:12.400 What you know, what were the conditions? 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:13.519 That's powerful. 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:32.880 Um the butt I think it's remembering the process that you go through or anchoring yourself in your process and understanding that you might be good at something, but you also can work really hard at it. 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:51.599 And and on a very simple sort of parenting example, um, you know, if my child comes home with a report card and let's say one of the, you know, one of the grades is really bad, um my inclination is to say first, you know, might might be to say, what happened? 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:59.119 But a success frame of that would be like, how did you get four A's and you know, how did you get these four A's? 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.920 Like, how did you do that in Spanish and chemistry and whatever else? 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:06.400 How did you get those A's? 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:17.440 Because the lesson to to pull that C up is probably in how you got the A's more than it is in the what went wrong in the C's. 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:19.759 And they might they might join up. 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:26.319 So I they might say things like, Well, it's just an easier class, or I I'm just I'm just really good at that. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.920 So they they default to being skilled or smart or it came easy. 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:37.920 But actually when you push a little harder, they they studied, you know, so so you studied a lot more for that. 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.720 It wasn't maybe it was an enjoyable class to you. 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:47.599 Um, so the conditions uh become a little different, the operations become a little different, the actions become different. 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:49.359 You put more time into that. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.519 Oh, so more time. 00:18:51.839 --> 00:19:05.839 You know, so you start to build this little framework through reflection based on the what they actually did versus blowing past the, well, I'm just smarter or more skilled at that. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.640 Um, because I think the two have to go hand in hand. 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:10.480 Yeah, I really like that example. 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:22.319 And I know given your background leading like a childcare nonprofit, you've got a lot of examples that come from that space of working with children and or as a parent. 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:36.160 And I think it also helps to remind us that this is something that's ingrained in us as we grow, that some of our approaches to success versus failure, some of it to Eric's point, like it's workplace structure and how we're being rewarded. 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.440 But it it's something that a lot of us have grown up with. 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:44.079 And so there's a lot of learning that comes, or relearning, I should say, unlearning, maybe. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:45.119 Unlearning, yeah. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.240 In order to flip the script, yeah, right. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.480 Yeah, even from childhood, which is really interesting. 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:51.279 Yeah. 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:57.359 Um, maybe just shift shifting a little bit, um, you know, speaking about your first book, Attention. 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.319 Um, you know, I I really love that book. 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:12.559 And one of the things that I was thinking about is in the business world, uh, we often try to maximize resource utilization, which I think is uh the wrong thing to maximize, right? 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:18.160 Uh it's like filling a highway up with cars and hoping that it moves, right? 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:24.240 Uh, instead of flow efficiency and flowing work and learning as we go and things like this. 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:24.960 Yeah. 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:39.599 Um, how do you see the connection between managing our attention or in business terms, the resource utilization of, hey, I'm busy doing everything, um, and not being able to pay attention to actually being able to learn from success? 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:44.079 Like, how do those two connect to each other and what do we do about that? 00:20:46.079 --> 00:21:03.200 I think in the first way I'm going to approach this is attention for an individual and attention looking at it from the a team perspective and thinking about the fact that we often put a lot of personal responsibility on individual productivity. 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.480 And we don't often think about team productivity. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:14.559 So when you were talking about, you know, when we move to an environment, you're just sort of thinking everyone's got to do their own thing to get, you know, to show up, to do the right thing. 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:42.160 But the culture of how we communicate inside an organization, um, how the expectations for always being on or notifications being on, uh, and and how the response time we don't think about what our

impact is on the individual and on the team. 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:55.119 So I I I did a um I did a survey a couple of years ago, but also I did uh an internal assessment with a group of managers and managers and supervisors and the people that they supervise. 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.759 And just to kind of gauge that impact of when you make a request. 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.960 You know, do you feel like you know who you know, know what what's on that person's plate? 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:14.880 You know, you you're right, yeah, asking them to do something, but you don't know that they're already working on 10 things, but you just keep lobbing things over. 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:15.279 Yep. 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.720 So the way that you frame the request has to be thought out. 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.480 Did you just send you know a message on Teams or Slack? 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:23.680 Did you send an email? 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:25.680 What's the appropriate channel for that? 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:34.559 So resource utilization, like which resource is the right resource to make this request, or which channel is the right place to make this request? 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:45.200 And then how much attention do we expect people to be devoting to paying attention to all of the communication channels that are open and all the information that's coming at us? 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.039 And how can we narrow that for them? 00:22:47.119 --> 00:23:05.759 So attention in terms of what I do as an individual and turning off my notifications and trying to check my email when I have the time to check my email and not being at the dis you know at um you know, be being at someone else's disposal all the time. 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:13.359 And to moving that into an organization or a team culture and thinking about all right, how do we communicate? 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:23.599 Like, do we really want someone constantly monitoring this team's channel for lots of notifications when the notification isn't even meant for them? 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:23.920 Yeah. 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:27.680 You know, because they're constantly going, oh, oh, that's not for me. 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:28.640 Oh, that's not for me. 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:31.359 Oh, right, you know, yeah, it happens a lot. 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:39.039 Well, there's a study that I know you recently put in your newsletter about how often in your survey that people were being interrupted. 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.599 And I can't remember the the stat off the top of my head. 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:42.559 Maybe you can. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:42.880 Yeah. 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:48.400 You're kind of talking about a team that learned from it, took a while for them to take your uh attention advice to heart. 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:49.119 Right? 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:54.079 Maybe it might be have been my team, but you know, what's that data point again? 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:56.640 Six

six there were two data points in there. 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:08.079 Sixty percent of people reported spending more more than twenty-five percent of their day reacting to notifications on channels like Slack and Teams and things like that. 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:13.359 So 60% of employees, and this is a this is a survey of about 180 people. 00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:24.559 Um so 25% of their day just checking it, and the key thing for me was even if it's just to see whether or not the message is meant for them. 00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:25.039 Yeah. 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:35.759 And then the other stat was that um 25% of the people reported spending more than half of their day doing the same thing. 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:40.720 So again, just in that idea of like just to see, wait, is that for no, it's not for me. 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:41.359 Is that for me? 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:42.640 No, it's not for me. 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:56.319 Yeah, that's interesting because um one of the things that I like to emphasize with our team is uh using something like a kanban of the actual stuff that matters and opening that first in the morning, right? 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:02.079 Look at the work that you've committed to that's important before you open your email. 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:04.400 Go try and work on one of those things first. 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:07.200 The email can wait, the team's message can wait, right? 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:14.079 The response time needed, if they really need to get a hold of you, they're gonna contact you in different ways, right? 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.839 So I think that's important. 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:34.000 And I think as we try to learn from success too, uh, one thing that I like to think about, or or or maybe you've seen in your experiences if someone or some team in your organization is having success, uh, might it also be good for the organization to learn from that and then share that learning with teams that aren't as successful? 00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:34.960 Absolutely. 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:44.079 I mean, that uh goes to to uh one of my favorite books of all time, which is Chip and Dan Heath's Switch book, where they talk about focusing on the bright spots. 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:50.000 So the a lot of the success lessons are already there within the organization. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:52.559 Someone has got a great method. 00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.880 And it's not that and I really want to be careful with this. 00:25:56.960 --> 00:26:19.839 Um, I'm I'm I don't think that everyone has to follow the exact routine, but the concept that you were just talking about of whatever however best your priorities are served up to you, whether it's compound style or some other method, the idea is focus on priorities before communication. 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:27.119 Um so, and if there's someone in the organization who has got that figured out, you can try their method for a little while. 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:39.920 But if you have to tweak it and make it your own and say, oh, that doesn't quite work for me, don't give up on you know trying to figure that out or following the basic idea of it, find the way that works for you to get that stuff served up. 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:48.880 Like put put success in your way, going back to you know, someone else might need to sleep in their running clothes rather than just have them laid out, right? 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:50.480 Like that's their version of it. 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.920 Um but the idea of starting from a standard, I like that, right? 00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.279 So if somebody has a standard that worked for them, start there. 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:11.680 Yes, then then iterate on that, make it a little bit better, and then if you make it better and it works better for you, maybe share that back with the people who shared the standard with you in the first place, because maybe it might even work better for them to change theirs just a little bit, right? 00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.960 I think those are some things that I'm taking away from what you're saying. 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:34.079 Yeah, and then you get the sort of collaborative uh like culture that that gets built, you get these sort of standards uh that the team might start to share and build on, it becomes part of uh institutional knowledge and a reference point for hey, this is we've all found that some version of this really, really works. 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:35.839 No, that's fantastic. 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:42.240 Because I think a success frame, now that I've got multiple versions of how we're gonna get out the door for running, right? 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:56.000 But the way that we're thinking about success frames, it it feels really personal, like what works for you, but then when we come to the workplace, so how do we make team-level success frames? 00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:02.319 So it's one thing to say, like, here's how I might approach my launch to my day versus how Eric might versus how Rob might. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.880 We all have different ways that we could say, yeah, we want to think about priorities first. 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:11.200 But what does it look like when you try to scale like an individual success frame? 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:18.240 How do you make one so that it's full team-based, that it is taking individual nuances into account? 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:19.599 What does that look like? 00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:35.359 I think the the the way that it works is taking the intention behind the action, like the set, you know, putting as Eric was describing, uh email and teams communication is not a priority. 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:45.599 So being able to state that, right, like your work is it the work that is a priority for you and what you've been tasked with, that is the most important thing. 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:52.960 It is not important for you to read your email first or um check

teams or have any of that communication. 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.000 So you're giving permission. 00:28:54.079 --> 00:29:09.519 You start to give permission around broad strokes about how communication works and being intentional about if someone needs you, here's how they send up the bat signal, um, you know, and and and how they can can can reach you if they really needed to. 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:16.240 Um so I think it's partly about being intentional, but stating what the overall goal is. 00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:21.599 We want you to be able to have the time and and energy and the focus to do your work. 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:24.960 We're gonna do our best to sort of limit the distractions. 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:29.519 And then you start to share some of those successes that other people might have had. 00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.519 You can approach it this way, you can approach it that way. 00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:41.839 But overall, we want we have a culture where deep work is more important than constant interaction. 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:47.440 Now, there's some roles that require people to be constantly monitoring communication. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:56.240 So, you know, I want to caveat that a little bit, but in in terms of what we're talking about, people are getting a project or a task and move going away and working on it. 00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:35.839 And I think being able to say within an organization that that's important time, that's how you begin to to scale it, I think, is to start talking about openly uh how communication happens and works and how what's the expectation for uh responding to communication is it I I I had another client I was working with and I was training all of their the supervisors and they ever without question believed that any email coming from the senior director required their immediate attention. 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.480 No one ever said that, right? 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:49.279 She never said that in in her communication, but they would drop everything and jump into whatever the request was. 00:30:49.519 --> 00:31:02.559 Now, she could have been subtly implying that she wants quick responses, but it's on her to examine all right, I didn't realize the impact of what I was, you know, sure. 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:10.160 I have to think a little bit about hearing that and and and the impact of her communication, but we don't understand how those power structures work. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:16.480 Someone might be genuinely afraid of their job, and so it's not safe to even question it, you just jump in and take care of it. 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:32.240 Yeah, there's a cost to that switch, and so we had to kind of work through and and get really clear on the communication styles and uh and what's expected, whether it's an email or Teams or wherever it's coming from. 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:40.079 Yeah, and I think that's helpful to hear about some of the different types of questions and concerns

that teams have as they're trying different success frames. 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:47.039 There's lots of dynamics at play, leadership structure, team cultures for organizational culture outside of just the team. 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:52.319 So we talk a lot about both team level, leader level, right? 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.759 We've got a wide range of folks within the hierarchy that are listeners for us. 00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:03.680 So I think, Eric, you had a question that was going to help people think about uh what their role is in this type of discussion, right? 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:09.119 Yeah, I think um, you know, what is the biggest mistake? 00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:21.519 You know, what's a common pitfall we have, a big mistake that you see leaders and teams make um when they first try to shift from doing failure analysis to go to a success analysis frame? 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:36.559 Uh over like uh almost like over praising or or making it like you know, thinking it's it's fluffy and and it's just about you know congratulating people that there's there's meat to it. 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:43.440 There's there's actual stuff that we want to pull out that can inform how we operate. 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:50.319 It can change the whole dynamic of how an operate uh how an organization or a team functions. 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:55.119 Um and and we we do it, it's so it's so common. 00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:12.079 Uh you know, there are people who we just sort of point to in like you know, uh in a construction company, for example, there's a you know there might be a guy who is so experienced he can just walk in and assess a situation like that, but no one's taking the time to ask him, how do you do that? 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:12.640 Yeah, right. 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:24.559 You were talking about finding that person who does something so well, deconstructing how he does it, uh, and and thinking about you know what what is it you look for when you're walking in? 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.279 What are the what are the things that you see immediately? 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.559 Uh and trying to get some that's like deep institutional knowledge. 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:51.839 That person retires, that's all gone, team back with just their own experience, maybe some time with that person, but the richness in success that I think we overlook and we we pass it off as just being congratulatory and um and just boosting people up and lifting people up. 00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:54.079 It does that as well, but it's sure. 00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:05.440 Yeah, I love that as a as a pitfall to point out because I I know in our organizations uh that we work with, it's they try to you know celebrate success, but that's the end of it. 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:06.400 Just celebrate it. 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:06.960 Who did it? 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:07.759 What did they do? 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:08.559 Cool. 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:10.320 It never goes

deeper than that. 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:12.400 It doesn't go into well, how did they do it? 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.920 What did they do differently than other groups? 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.440 Why were they why are we why are we congratulating them? 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:27.519 We're congratulating them because they achieved this, but actually we should be congratulating them because they used a process that got them right, and I think that's really powerful. 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:29.280 But hold on, you're making one assumption. 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:30.559 I gotta like hop in here. 00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.840 I'm like, that teams are celebrating. 00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:36.480 So I think actually, as you say that, I'm like, wait, wait, wait. 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:43.199 One of the things that we find in a lot of the nonprofits that we work with is that they're just so busy doing that they forget to celebrate. 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:43.440 Right. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:52.719 So if they forget to celebrate because they saw something that's successful, like well, I'm wondering, I'm like, whoops, then what how are you gonna learn to make a success frame? 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:56.559 Because you're stuck in like either do mode or uh-oh, don't do that again mode. 00:34:56.800 --> 00:34:56.880 Right. 00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.559 And you're organizations that do. 00:34:58.719 --> 00:34:59.039 Yeah. 00:34:59.360 --> 00:34:59.679 Yeah. 00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:04.639 And and there's there's something great about organizations that do, right? 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:20.159 I mean, but but you're pointing to the fact that there are also tremendous pitfalls, there's a lot of burnout when people don't stop and reflect at all about the work and how they do it and why they do it, and you know, what choices they made along the way. 00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:36.079 Uh, even yeah, thinking about uh back in in my days of working in the child health center, when we were training on reflective practice, we would talk about an interaction between, say, a provider and a parent. 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:40.320 And we would ask questions like, so, you know, what did you say? 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:45.039 You know, and they would talk about what they said and like, okay, so how did they respond? 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.519 Was that different than how you expected them to respond? 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:54.639 So we're bringing it down to this individual level where they begin to develop this ability to start to notice nuances in a conversation. 00:35:54.800 --> 00:36:00.000 Like, I said this with this intention, but it seemed to shut them down. 00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.159 All right, so what did you do next? 00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:10.159 Like, did you did they completely shut down for the rest of the time you were with them, or did you say something that helped to reopen them back up? 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:17.360 Well, yeah, actually, I started just talking about their child, and they opened back up and it just became so easy again. 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:18.000 Oh, great. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:29.440 So now whenever you feel like things are a little stuck, you want to remember to, and this is a touch points uh principle, um, use the child's behavior as your language. 00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:30.880 Start talking about their child. 00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.320 Who doesn't want to talk about their child? 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:33.599 Who can't make a connection? 00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:36.639 So when when you're stuck, you would go to the child. 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:46.320 So those that's a like really um intricate reflective practice session. 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:56.400 But that's what you can get is that it that becomes this tool, part of a framework that you can use down the road to draw from and say, oh, right, I'm stuck. 00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:58.239 Child, focus on the child. 00:36:58.559 --> 00:36:58.719 Yeah. 00:36:58.960 --> 00:36:59.679 Yeah, triggered. 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.639 Well, and so we've given a bunch of different analogies and examples just in our conversation today. 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:14.639 And the thing that we're always focused on here is we think about what an episode's gonna end on, is we always want to have some like a challenge, uh, something that we're encouraging folks to try. 00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:18.800 And you know me, I like to try one thing and see what works, right? 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:20.480 Good, bad, learn from it. 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.719 Okay, so it's sort of that same idea. 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:38.480 If you're thinking of an individual, whether they're formally using Agile or not, regardless of their spot in the organization, they're trying to think about one thing they want to try that's related to success frames, some way to shift their focus for their team towards success. 00:37:38.960 --> 00:37:50.079 What would be something, knowing everybody's unique, I get it, but what would be something that you would issue as like a recommendation or a challenge for them to try shifting their focus? 00:37:51.760 --> 00:38:03.360 I would start with the question, why did that go well when you're in a retrospective, for example, or some conversation where you recognize, all right, so what went well in this project? 00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:05.119 Oh, this went well, this went well. 00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:09.440 Stop and just ask, why do you why do we think that went well? 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:24.079 There are other questions to ask after that, obviously, about the conditions and the operations and and and the actions, but just stopping to ask why we think it went well is the that's the very first step. 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:27.440 So asking, I would go right there and just ask why. 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.320 Stop and ask why it went well. 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:32.320 How many you said this week? 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.440 Oh, I was like,

I myself, I'm like, oh, I was in a retrospective yesterday. 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.360 Thinking about my retrospective template that I'm gonna change right now, try this out. 00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:41.519 It's gonna we'll give you feedback on that. 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:42.639 I appreciate it. 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:44.079 Yeah, challenge accepted. 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:45.440 Really good, really good. 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:51.119 Oh, well, we I've been so looking forward to this conversation because Rob, you and I have debated learning from failure, success. 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:55.599 This has been like an ongoing undertone for us for a long time in our work together. 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:03.679 And so I've had a whole lot of fun, but I'm thinking people might also want to maybe read more about your work, follow you, maybe get your Thursday newsletters. 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:05.440 Where can people find more? 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:10.800 Uh, easiest places to go to Robhatch.com, and everything that you need is there. 00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:22.800 You can check out the survey that I mentioned, links to the books are there, and uh you can also sign up for my Thursday newsletter, which you know uh comes out every week and has for the last 15 years. 00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:23.760 So amazing. 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:28.719 Yep, it's always there waiting for some sort of Thursday morning cup of coffee, pondering in my world. 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.519 So, Rob, thank you again for being with us. 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:34.400 Really appreciate you being here. 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:45.760 And uh I want to give a quick shout out, if you don't mind, to our season two sponsor, Agile and Nonprofits, working to train, coach, and support nonprofits thinking about agile ways of working. 00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.119 You can learn more about them. 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.079 Uh download their free templates, check out their trainings at agileandnonprofits.com. 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:53.440 Yeah. 00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:55.119 And with that, Eric. 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:56.800 Yeah, keep driving that impact. 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.519 See you next time. 00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.199 Yep, see you next time. 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:03.760 Thanks, sis. 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:05.840 Well, right. 00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:06.559 Hi, Rob. 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:07.679 That was cool, Rob. 00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:09.280 I learned a lot today. 00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:11.360 So I'm I can't say that all the time. 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.599 So I was reminded of a lot of things. 00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:21.599 Well, hey, like uh probably reminded would probably be a better word because I probably did learn all that stuff at some point from reading your books and other stuff, but it was uh it was great. 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.880 I'm I'm definitely literally gonna go try that retrospective. 00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:29.199 We had we had a retrospective today, and

we totally focused on the negative, you know. 00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:30.159 It's just what the team did. 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:38.880 They went into the failures and went, we need to fix this and fix this and fix this, and here's all the stuff we're gonna do to fix those things versus hey, we had all these successes. 00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:41.119 What what are we gonna do about those? 00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:43.679 Well, how are we gonna amplify those? 00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:51.280 Well, you know, sometimes the answer to the failure is in in the success, like the success frame. 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:52.639 How we can approach it. 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:58.079 Like, usually failures come from not doing the framework in the end. 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:11.519 Like when we were using that Tom Brady analogy earlier, like it's a misstep that he made in his usual you know, framework for successfully executing a play. 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:21.360 He might have done something wrong or someone did something wrong, but the it's just a failure of not following the success frame rather than something you need to dive into deep too deeply. 00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:35.760 And if we do that thing, uh so and I think, yeah, how do you use um your successes to you know mitigate failures more, you know, more consistently? 00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:44.239 Um these are the things that we talk about all the time together, and the thing that I'm so sad about, some of our guests get to be with us in person this year. 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:48.719 And I'm like, Rob, the distance, it could have been so you could have been right here with us on a hook. 00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.679 Next time, next time we're gonna fly you here. 00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:56.159 Next time we're gonna do that because who wouldn't want to hang out in this space, right? 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:57.280 Right, right. 00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:57.760 Yeah. 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:03.519 I mean, look, look at all the cars and the things like you've heard us, you hear us talk about these things all the time. 00:42:03.679 --> 00:42:05.039 Like, is that a Lego truck? 00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.519 Yeah, that's a Lego truck, it's a Mac Anthem. 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:25.039 Um, so I work in the transportation industry with commercial vehicles, and this one actually many years ago uh built it with my daughters, and it's actually uh autonomous truck, it has a uh sensor on it and some motors in the back, and it'll follow road lines and just drive around on the floor. 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:26.159 That's really cool. 00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.119 Yeah, so it's kind of a cool truck that that they built with me. 00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.800 Yeah, Legos are kind of a thing. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:35.679 You know that about us from when we were Lego League coaches, like yeah, Legos are uh they're a family thing. 00:42:36.239 --> 00:42:37.199 The Mindstorm. 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:45.440 Uh I just you know was shuffling some

things around in our uh garage and came across the original Mindstorm kit that we had, you know. 00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:59.920 Um yeah, we've I've I've still got oh my gosh, there's gotta be two or three giant totes just filled with Legos in our basement that the boys are just gonna have to figure out and fight over some way. 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:04.320 There's a song from a band our kids like that has the AJR song. 00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:07.599 Don't throw out my Lego, throw out my Lego, right. 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:35.119 I I I I don't one of the reasons that I've resisted doing that, aside from the fact that I love Legos, is my uh two stepbrothers, uh when they were in their 20s, and this is before we were actually stepbrothers, but we're close, and one lived in Alaska, one lived in New York City, and they would ship their Legos back and forth to each other every like year or you know, every so often. 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:45.119 Just like, here you go, I'm done with them for a while, you play with them, and they would just they'd have them in their apartments and they'd build with them and play with them, and they just kept shipping them back and forth to each other. 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:46.000 That's cool. 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:47.920 Oh, I love Lego. 00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:48.960 We'll have to see what happens. 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:55.679 The Mons type car. 00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:58.159 Yeah, I got the DeLorean here. 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.400 And of course, actually the First Lego League trophy is actually Lego. 00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:03.760 This is one of the ones I'm most proud of. 00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:09.599 The kids had won, you know, the t teams we coached won a lot of awards, made it to the world championships and stuff. 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.079 But there's one year that I actually got the coach mentor award, and that's what this one is made out of. 00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:15.280 Oh, that's so cool. 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.199 Kind of one of my favorite ones. 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:18.559 Yeah, that's cool. 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:20.880 We use Lego a lot in our workshops and stuff too. 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:22.559 It's a great way for people to learn. 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.760 You know, it puts similar challenges on them to real work. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:26.480 Right. 00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:28.079 So it's it's always fun. 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.079 So, like, what's an example of like one activity that you do with with Legos? 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:34.880 Uh we do one that's about context switching. 00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:37.519 So they have uh three models that they have to build out of Lego. 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:38.320 They're quite simple. 00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.320 One's a dog, one's a tree, one's a house. 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:42.800 Each of them has about, I don't know, 10 pieces. 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:49.039 And we say, uh, you know, let's do the never keep a customer waiting uh version. 00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:52.239 So, you know, every customer wants to know that their stuff's being worked on. 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:59.199 So basically it's put one piece on each model, go back, put one piece on each model, go back, put one piece on each model, and you time it, right? 00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:00.719 And it takes like a minute. 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:04.320 And then we say, okay, now why don't what what would be faster, right? 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.639 And people intuitively go, well, working on one at a time. 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.760 Okay, cool, let's do that. 00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:13.840 So they build all three of them, and it takes significantly less time because it follows Weinberg's table of context switching ways. 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:16.960 So, you know, 40% waste if we're working on three things at once. 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:18.719 So they can see that in the numbers. 00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.039 And then during that, we also have people doing quality checks and people timing it. 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:26.880 And then we say, okay, you have three people on your team, how could you do it even faster? 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:28.800 And they go, well, we could each build one. 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:29.280 Okay, cool. 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:30.960 Then they do that and it gets even faster. 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:41.920 And then the last one, I can't give away the solution to it, but the last one we say, okay, now all the constraints are gone, except they have to, you have to take the Legos apart and put them back together. 00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:44.239 Um, how fast can you do it? 00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:44.639 Right. 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:47.599 And then they have their own round to innovate. 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:59.039 And the fastest teams we've seen do it go from what used to be, so it's a minute maybe for the first time, uh, that they do the each one individually, then they get it down to like 35, 40 seconds. 00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:03.760 Then when each of them they're doing it by themselves, they get it down to like 16 seconds or something. 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:09.199 Then we've had teams in the innovation round that get it in under one second, all three models built. 00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:11.519 That's like, wow, that's innovation. 00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.000 And I'm not gonna tell you how they did it, but right. 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:14.719 I know, yeah. 00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:20.480 But uh next time, but it's cool because the teams do it and they're so proud of themselves, and you're like, What'd you do it in? 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:21.920 Oh, nine seconds? 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:22.639 Yeah, okay. 00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:26.800 That's that's decent, but there's the world record, one second, figure it out. 00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:27.679 That's amazing. 00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:39.119 Yeah, that's one we do a lot of really fun stuff with Lego, we do much more complex stuff where they build Lego through a

whole like three-day course and they learn how to scale across multiple teams to build like a city together. 00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:39.920 It's kind of fun. 00:46:40.079 --> 00:46:43.599 Yeah, somehow it's I think it's what keeps Legos in our environment. 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:47.119 Yeah, like we found ways to use Legos now that we're not Lego coaches, yeah. 00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:51.599 We still found ways to keep them in our business, and so therefore, we have bins of Legos. 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:56.880 And if anybody's listening from the Lego Corporation, we understand that it's always Lego and not Legos. 00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:02.639 We're sorry if we've embedded you that even plural is Lego, like you're building Lego. 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:03.840 I always have trouble with that, though. 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:05.519 I always say Lego, I do too. 00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:07.280 Because I just Lego, yeah. 00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:13.360 Yeah, it seems like it's like uh any other deer and deer, you know, multiple deers, not deers. 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.280 And there we have it. 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:17.280 So there now you know more about our background. 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:21.440 You're used to my book background from when we talk, or if we're like on video sometimes. 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:24.639 Yeah, Eric hangs out with yeah, the Legos. 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:26.239 With Lego, yeah. 00:47:26.800 --> 00:47:28.639 And you while you're hanging out with the guitars. 00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:37.679 I'm hanging out with the guitars, and I actually I have a guitar Lego over there, uh, like a little fender guitar and amp, um, sitting off to the side there as well. 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:40.559 So and what's cool is you you probably really know how to play guitar. 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:45.519 I have I have like three guitars over here, and I have I have no idea how to play guitar. 00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:47.920 Just I can attest he does not. 00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.159 Yeah, there is not a success frame, but I've not tried far enough, you know. 00:47:52.639 --> 00:48:06.480 It's a hard thing to work in, I I find, and and I'm only recently finally landed on a guitar, an acoustic guitar that I absolutely just it's a pure joy to hold and play. 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:12.559 It's not crazy expensive or anything like that, but it's the nicest guitar I've ever owned. 00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:21.039 And so now every time I hold it, it just feels like it's you know, it's it's just a joy to hold and play. 00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:26.880 So I uh it makes it that's sort of a new part of the success frame because I had to take care of it. 00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:33.199 Usually some of them I can I can leave out, but there's a humidity issue and could that can affect guitars, right? 00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:35.119 So the like and this is an acoustic. 00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:43.199 So instead of having it out and available and and sort of putting success in my way in that way that it's always right there, I actually have to keep it in its case. 00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:49.519 So the I remade the process to to be the sort of joyful moment of opening the case. 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.760 It's a really beautiful case and stopping and appreciating it. 00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.960 I just had to rethink what what it was gonna be like. 00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:02.000 So the whole thing becomes a sort of emotional experience of like opening it and seeing and pulling it out. 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:02.960 And that's fun. 00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:08.239 Um so yeah, I had to rework my whole like put success in your way, success frame for playing guitar. 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:09.679 Um I love it. 00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:10.239 Cool. 00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:10.719 I love it. 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:12.400 Maybe I could learn from that success frame then. 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:12.960 I don't know. 00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.000 All right, we have our own challenges, we're gonna work on that, Rob. 00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.320 It was so fun to have with you for this today. 00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:19.039 Thank you again. 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:20.079 Thanks again for having me. 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:21.440 Oh yeah, we'll talk to you soon. 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:22.800 Great to meet you, finally. 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:23.440 Yeah. 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:26.159 For real, yeah, not just names anymore. 00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:26.880 Excellent. 00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:27.920 Same, same, Rob. 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:28.559 Really great. 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:29.440 All right, take care. 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:30.000 Talk soon. 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:30.320 Take care. 00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:30.800 Take care. 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:31.199 Bye. 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:31.840 Bye.