התמלול המלא של Changemaker Angus Thomas, Founder, Hope Education Project

SOMA, which is a sisterhood empowerment circle for girls transitioning between junior junior high school and senior high school, which is a very vulnerable time for young girls because they have a lot of time on their hands. 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:46.960 So those are the two programs we're running in northern Ghana. 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:47.759 Wow. 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:56.800 So just from hearing you explain those two programs, Smart Schools and SOMA, I know you're not just working with young people. 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:02.639 You're working with families, you're working with schools, you're working with entire communities. 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:08.879 Why is that community-wide approach so important to preventing trafficking? 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.199 Yeah, well, because trafficking thrives in secrecy. 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:17.439 And the more people are aware about trafficking the better. 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:22.479 Well, what we find is that there is a kind of ignorance around trafficking. 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:36.080 When we have community sessions for example, we hold community sessions where the children they create plays as part of their schools program, and the children then go and present the plays at the community sessions, which are survivor-led. 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:42.800 But quite often women will come up to us at the end of the session and say, I've been trafficked and I didn't even realize. 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:52.400 So there is this what whilst we live a very expansive life and we've just been talking about technology, their life is very, very small. 00:03:52.400 --> 00:04:04.400 And so in my compound where I live in Tamale, where I stay part of the year, some of the girls in that compound have never been to the center of town, which is about three miles away, because it's a very strict Islamic culture. 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:11.840 And the because you mix that with the Dagomba culture the families keep their daughters and children very close to the home. 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:26.560 So it's important that the community talks about these issues which are generally not talked about partly through ignorance and partly because these are sometimes difficult subjects to talk about. 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:40.480 Because there is an element of if you take forced child labor, for example, there is a gray area between a child that needs to stay at home and miss school and work on the farm or help the family because the family's starving. 00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:45.759 And a child that's been taken out of school and forced to work, which is effectively human trafficking. 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:56.160 So it's a question of having this conversation in open and promoting conversations in communities so that there is a general level of awareness around what's going on. 00:04:56.160 --> 00:05:03.439 One of the issues in in Ghana, for example is there is a sort of acceptance of child labor, for example. 00:05:03.439 -->

00:05:08.560 And when I do focus groups with children in school, I say to them, Do you think child labor exists in Ghana? 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:09.920 And they say, No, no, no, no, no. 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.000 I say, Well, do you think people accept child labor? 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.519 No, we don't accept child labor. 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.519 Well, who did you buy your bag of pure water from when you came to school this morning? 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:21.839 And they buy it from a child who's selling it on the top of their head who's not going to school today. 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:29.920 So we have to challenge these and in a culturally appropriate way and bring trafficking into the conversation. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:30.800 Absolutely. 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:41.839 You know, Angus, it reminds me of another episode we did on this podcast with a woman who created an ethical handbag, fashion handbag company. 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:54.720 And one of the things she said was in the in America, we all tend to want to donate to nonprofits at the end of the year because that's when we take the tax credits and the holidays and we're thinking about it. 00:05:54.720 --> 00:06:04.480 And she said, don't make purchases all year that contribute to the problems you're trying to solve with your donations at the end of the year, right? 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:08.160 And what you just said makes me think of that because you're you're right. 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:14.480 I look around the small, you know, Midwestern United States community that I live in. 00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:19.439 And to me, it feels impossible that human trafficking would happen here. 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:21.439 But yet I know that it does. 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:23.279 I know that it does. 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:30.000 And and what you said about it thriving in secrecy makes a lot of sense to me. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:45.040 As a matter of fact, in the information you sent us and while we were preparing, Angus, one of the numbers that stuck out to me is an estimated 40 million people are trapped in modern day slavery worldwide. 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:54.000 Like, can you tell us more about what that looks like and why prevention education helps us overcome this issue? 00:06:54.480 --> 00:07:00.480 Yeah, I mean, human trafficking is a multi-tentacled issue to grapple with. 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:14.480 And at its most basic level, in our community, let's take my small rural community here, we've and I my window cleaner partner, sorry, my yeah, my window cleaner is actually a full-time policeman. 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.759 And in his spare time, he earns extra money by cleaning windows. 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:34.399 And he was telling me that even in our small town here, there are people working at the car wash that have been trafficked, there are people working in nail bars that have been trafficked, there are Chinese women doing massage in legitimate massage parlors, licensed massage parlors who have been trafficked. 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:37.759 So they're seeing trafficking even in this small rural town. 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:44.800 So if we extrapolate that out to you know London or, you know, wherever, it's it's everywhere. 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.639 And the thing is, we have to be a we have to be awake to see the problem. 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:56.879 And if we just if we're just going through life, meandering through life, consuming, looking at our feet, not looking out for our fellow man, then we're not going to see it. 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:10.399 So it's just about raising human trafficking in the consciousness of everybody worldwide, because this is a this is a problem that goes from cocoa production to clothing production to your gas pump to your nail bar. 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:11.600 It's everywhere. 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:20.319 So what we need to do is we need to educate the general public, obviously, but we need to work downstream and educate the people who are being trafficked. 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:26.959 And that's a much harder conversation to have because at both ends, because you want the best deal for your money. 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:30.959 So you don't want to overpay, none of us want to overpay for clothes. 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:40.639 But the problem is everything comes at a cost, and it's some of that cost is hidden, and it could be the cost of the labor that went into the bag that you bought or whatever. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:50.639 And so so there is a general movement of people you know, looking further down the supply chain now to see, well, was my product manufactured by child labor? 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:55.279 A very good example is a Dutch company called Tony's Chocolonely. 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.960 And Tony's Chocolonely, I don't know if they've hit the states yet. 00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:02.320 I've never heard of it, but it sounds like a fun brand. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:18.559 Okay, they're they're an amazing brand, and they're in the UK, they've got a really fun product, it's big chunky bars of chocolate, but they donate, they they take their cocoa or they grow their cocoa from Ghana and Côte d'Ivoire, so that area on the western side of Ghana. 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:28.639 They put back 1% of their turnover into eliminating child trafficking, child labor and child trafficking from their labor chain, so their supply chain. 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:33.120 So what they've created is something called Tony's open chain supply chain. 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:45.759 And everybody who comes buys from that chain can be guaranteed that there's this anti-trafficking, anti-child labor work going on, which is why they're now labeled the most ethical cocoa producer in the world. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:46.080 Wow. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:47.919 And it gives huge value to that. 00:09:47.919 --> 00:10:02.960 So what they found is it gives huge value to their

production chain because other companies, I believe, like Marks & Spencer, can come into the Tony's open chain by their cocoa, knowing that it's certified and that somebody is taking care of the child labor issue. 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:24.639 So it's a question of the more companies that do that, and the more we pay the real price of things that we're consuming, which is difficult in these current economic times, but it works the other way downstream as well, because people are desperately poor and poverty makes people do strange things that we can't comprehend. 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:25.039 Right. 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:33.440 So poverty makes people desperate and makes people believe in this concept in West Africa of greener pastures. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.679 I'm going to go to greener pastures. 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.000 Everywhere is better apart from here. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:40.080 You ask anybody, where do you want to be? 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.039 Well, not here. 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:42.320 I want to be somewhere else. 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:43.919 Yeah, not here. 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:49.679 And so you know, frequently on my travels in Ghana, you know, people offer me their children. 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:55.200 Like, please, that they call me Kofi in Ghana, which is which is tree for Friday born. 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:55.919 Please, Mr. 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.600 Kofi, take my son, take my daughter, take him back to your place. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:00.080 What? 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:01.200 Wow, what? 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:02.639 Yeah, oh yes. 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:09.679 It's which is why we've got a and I don't know if it's appropriate to talk about it on your podcast, Lyn, but this is this is why we sure it is. 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:11.679 I think we want to talk about real problems. 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:19.360 And okay, I think our listeners are aware and interested in making a difference in the world. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:20.080 Okay. 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.000 Well, I mean, one of the big problems we have in West Africa is sex tourism. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:24.240 Yeah. 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:31.440 And because of that very reason that I was talking to you is that people are looking for a way out for their families and their children. 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:52.720 And at the moment, even I see a number, you know, I see lots and lots of rural families putting a lot of money into putting their children through university, for example, usually the eldest male, then you wonder at the end of that what they're going to do with their master's degree, because there are no jobs in northern Ghana, there's only farming, and farming is becoming more difficult because of climate change. 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:53.200 Right. 00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.879 And therefore people are more desperate. 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:02.399 So I go into a village and people are very curious to talk to me, and people will bring their children to me. 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:14.879 And what's happening is that because sex tourism is becoming known by the authorities, sex tourists are pushing further into remote rural areas where there is poverty and desperation. 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:38.080 And it's very easy for someone to go into a village as a good actor, if you like, lavish money on the children's education, or maybe marry a local woman, use this for nefarious purposes, and it can be very disruptive and and very damaging to you know to many people, particularly where I am, because it's an 80% Islamic community. 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:40.559 So and and they are very Islamic as well. 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:44.080 So there are you know it's an observance society, yeah. 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:53.200 So it is so sex tourism is an issue, and poverty makes people do strange things, but parents trafficking their own children, so yeah. 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:58.399 You you want to be able to feed and take care of your kids and of course, yeah, yeah. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.759 That is wow, wow, that's wow. 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:07.840 All I can say is wow, so things I've never thought of before. 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.519 And you asked my permission, and I'm glad you shared it because I think you said a key thing earlier. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:22.480 You said we have to be awake to see it, and I think with that explanation, I think you just woke a lot of us up. 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:32.799 So, Angus, how does someone like you get involved in this whole world of human trafficking? 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:38.639 I mean, I this had to be a big life change for you at some point. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.360 I'm guessing this isn't what you've done your whole career. 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:42.399 No. 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.320 It's probably— I hope my wife is not listening to this podcast. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:51.200 But I have the most tolerant and loving wife possible. 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.440 We were on a— I was a photographer. 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.200 I'm a commercial photographer by background. 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.519 I do it, I do environmental portraiture. 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:02.799 And we were on a layover in Dubai in December 2019. 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:06.559 We'd just been to see my stepson who's married to an Indonesian. 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.759 Right before the right before the pandemic, too, right? 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.919 Right before the pandemic, yeah, which made life very interesting indeed. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:22.159 I my wife was sick on New Year's Eve, and I stepped out of our hotel to go and buy some paracetamol for her. 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.879 I walked past these four ladies who were dressed up as if they were going out for the evening, and I said, Hey ladies, you look fantastic. 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:36.960 And I just walked on and there were lots of people partying, and obviously I was feeling

a little bit left out because we would we were due to see friends. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:42.080 And anyway, a girl came up to me and said, propositioned me for sex. 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.039 and I said, you know, no, thank you very much. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:47.759 But there was something about the way she held my arm. 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:57.200 She came up and she grabbed my arm, and there was just something in that moment of touch that made me think, hello, something's not right here. 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:01.200 And I said, Listen, follow me to the supermarket if you want, I'll buy you some food. 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.799 Because she was skeletally thin. 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:09.279 And it was a young West African girl, she was 19, and we got talking, and I just said to her, Do you want to be here? 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:19.360 , because you don't see many African, Africans in Dubai, certainly not on the street, because they might be in service positions or whatever. 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.080 But we got talking and I said, Do you want to be here? 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.120 And she said, No, I don't. 00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.840 And I said, Well can I help in any way? 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:30.879 And then she told me her story, and I was just like, Whoa, I'd like to learn more about this. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.399 I'm a photographer, and as my wife says, I'm an intimacy addict. 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.080 I want to know your backstory. 00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:39.519 I I want to know what you like, I want to know what you had for breakfast. 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.080 I want to know how you grew up. 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:48.000 And anyway, so I said, If if I can help, meet me here tomorrow morning at seven o'clock. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:52.320 Anyway, I went back to explaining this to my wife, which you can imagine was not an easy conversation. 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:54.159 Oh golly, I can only imagine. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.000 She already didn't feel well. 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:57.840 She already didn't feel well. 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:04.080 We had watched the the fireworks from the oh my goodness, I can't remember the name of the tall building. 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:04.320 Yeah. 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.679 And she said, no, we've got to help her. 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.320 So I went the next morning to the meeting place. 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.960 My why my rule in photography is if a client's 15 minutes late, I walk. 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.360 This girl was an hour and 15 minutes later. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:21.360 That was the depth of my curiosity to understand what was going on here. 00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:22.480 I waited for her. 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.879 Anyway, we sat down, we had a cup of coffee. 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:30.559 She told me that she had been offered, she had been it'd been suggested to her by her pastor. 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.240 She goes to church every day. 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:40.720 Her pastor connected her with a woman who offered her a job in Dubai as a makeup artist, which of course she took. 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:51.200 And anyway, long story short she ended up arriving in Dubai, having a passport taken away, and walking into a flat with 22 other women. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:57.279 And it soon became very obvious that she had she had been tricked and she was there to do sex work. 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:03.519 And so I was horrified at this, and I just I felt the weight of responsibility. 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.960 Like this is this could be my sister, my mother, my aunt. 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.640 This is someone's child who doesn't know where they are. 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:27.920 So I photographed, I mean, it sounds ridiculous now, but I photographed all her tribal markings, I photographed her expired visa, and I just thought, I'm the only one with this information, so I need to gather as much information as I can so that when I get home tomorrow afternoon, I can do something about this. 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:29.519 So we parted. 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:36.640 I went back home, we got on the plane, and just as we were taxiing, I got a video call from her in floods of tears. 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:44.559 She'd been back to the flat and she'd been beaten because she'd been seen with a white man and hadn't returned with any with money. 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:44.880 Yeah. 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:49.920 So anyway, we the call got cut because we took off. 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:56.880 But when I got back home, I then felt this enormous calling, if you like, to rescue her. 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:05.759 And that started pretty much a year during COVID of rescuing and repatriating Nigerian women who have been trafficked for sex to Dubai. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:12.720 And I in the course of it, I opened five trafficking cases with the Dubai police, many women. 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.079 So that's what started me. 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:28.559 Wow, as you were telling the story, I could feel the anxiety raising in my chest because I was thinking, you know, to what— how much danger she was putting herself in to share that. 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:38.960 And it also makes me think how lucky I am because I think about my hardest days when I go home at the end of the day and I think this day has been hard and overwhelming. 00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:45.920 It's that story makes me feel like my life is a piece of cake, right? 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:50.480 Like well, we all need contrast, don't we? 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:56.559 I mean, it's like why does a dog why I mean it's always explained to me, why does a dog stick its head out of the moving car's window? 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:57.599 And it's contrast. 00:18:57.599 --> 00:18:59.680 We go to the windy bit, we come to the calm bit. 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:05.440 Yeah, and and and until we get that contrast in our life I think of

it a bit like a photographer. 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.160 If you put one light in front of somebody, you get no shadow. 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.200 But the minute you put a second light in, you get a bit of shadow on the face. 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.200 So it helps to define where you are. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:18.400 And this is one of those definition moments because for me, I'd never understood about human trafficking. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:19.920 I knew nothing about poverty. 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:24.400 I mean, I knew that I didn't have enough money for myself, but I certainly wouldn't call it poverty. 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:33.119 And interesting enough, what you've just described there, through my work, I have been fascinated because I'm interested in mental health issues. 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:40.960 I have been fascinated by the mindset and the coping strategies of victims of sex trafficking to Dubai. 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:52.319 And I've just finished or we've just started a research project with University of Texas at Arlington and with Washington University of St. 00:19:52.319 --> 00:20:01.839 Louis, and I've just completed 40 hours of interviews with 24 victims of human trafficking. 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:10.079 Some— one was trafficked at 13, and the oldest one was 25, I think. 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:18.640 So we interviewed, I interviewed 24 women over 40 hours, and just to look at their coping strategies, you know, what what sustained them? 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:19.519 Was it their children? 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.119 Was it their faith in God? 00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:25.599 how did they position this relationship with God? 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:26.640 Was it punishment? 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:28.240 Was it God testing them? 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:39.279 Or so it's a fascinating piece of research, but there's going to be more research coming from that because University of Texas and Washington University are looking at that data now. 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:51.119 but what I can tell you anecdotally, and this is about awareness, is that of those 24 women, we worked out that they had around 40,000 interactions with men, if you can believe that. 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:56.079 So working seven days a week, some of them for only three months, some of them for four years. 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:56.400 Wow. 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:00.240 40,000 interactions with men. But this is the point. 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:08.000 Of the— in those 40,000 interactions, only five men asked those women if they were okay and they needed help. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:14.240 But of those, in those five instances, in each instance, the woman secured her freedom. 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:29.519 So there is a piece in there about awareness and educating men about what they're consuming because there is something about men as useful protective factors for our daughters. 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:55.599 So that we can look at this cycle from a man becoming a father to a daughter right up to where a man suspends his moral code or whatever, steps into an anonymous apartment and sees a woman who, to you and me, would look obviously trafficked because quite often they're drugged quite often they're marked with a tattoo or some kind of cut mark. 00:21:55.599 --> 00:22:01.440 They're very silent because they're not allowed to talk to the client in case they ask for help. 00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:09.839 And in the case of a girl who might be 16 and under, she's blindfolded because they don't want them to see the client and recognize the client. 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:16.559 So so there is a there is a an education piece to be done around men who are consuming sexual services. 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:22.799 And I think that goes for whether you're in Dubai, West Africa, you know, Arkansas, or New York. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.720 You know, it's it's the same the world over. 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:32.319 So I'm so that's one of the things that hopefully is coming out of that work is you know a piece around men as being protectors of their daughters. 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:32.960 Yeah. 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:40.960 Angus, you have maybe done something very unique here in near in over 300 episodes of this podcast. 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.599 You've rendered me nearly speechless, right? 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.279 Oh, Lyn, I'm so sorry. 00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:57.359 I mean, this is not a topic that I think of, although I've had I've had other people in the sex trafficking space on the podcast. 00:22:57.680 --> 00:22:57.920 Right. 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:05.440 But I mean, your stories and the way you are sharing this information is very impactful. 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:12.720 And and so remind me, did you— when did you actually start Hope Education Project? 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:18.400 Was that I know the the turning point happened in December of 2019? 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.920 Did the nonprofit come very quickly after? 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:23.440 Did it take a little while? 00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:24.799 It took a little while. 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:28.480 It was very chaotic because obviously I was scrambling to an emergency. 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:39.119 So I got on I managed to get myself on BBC, which is really what gave me the money for the rescue work, the bulk of the rescue work that I did in 2020 and 2021. 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.960 COVID hit, flights were getting expensive. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:48.880 It was very difficult, it was very difficult to move the girls into safe or women into safe houses. 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.839 Logistics just became a big problem because the consulate was only open on certain days. 00:23:53.839 --> 00:24:04.160 A lot of people lost their lives in the UAE at that time because the madams were just chucking the women out on the street because they couldn't afford to feed them because they weren't earning any money because there were no

there were no tourists. 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:17.839 So I decided actually during COVID, which for me was probably the couple of the happiest years of my life, because my wife got transferred to New York just before COVID hit, and then we moved to Miami Beach, where of course COVID didn't exist. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:25.920 So in Miami Beach, I met— I'm being very flippant because it's very serious, it very seriously did hit. 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:27.759 Everyone's outside all the time. 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.640 Yeah, exactly. 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:29.279 That's right. 00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:29.839 Right, yeah. 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:47.279 So I happened to meet a woman from she was an African-American from East Africa originally, and she was involved in some development work, and she suggested that really I should be teaching young people downstream about trafficking. 00:24:47.279 --> 00:25:01.359 And and when we started talking, I started realizing that for the cost of what I now now know is that for the cost of rescuing one woman, I can educate between 80 and 100 children in school with a five-week program. 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:20.960 Yeah, we rarely think about, or I rarely think about, and honestly, KidGlov, my firm, does a lot of prevention campaigns, but the economics of prevention versus the economics of overcoming a problem once it's happened is fascinating, right? 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.160 That's true, yeah. 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:30.880 Unfortunately, it's easier to raise money for a woman in distress than to raise money to prevent a young woman from going into distress. 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:31.519 That's true. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:50.559 So for example, so we find it very difficult to fundraise because how do you convey the story visually in our you know two-second attention span that is not a child with flies in its eyes, with a bucket on her head, going for water for five miles? 00:25:50.559 --> 00:26:02.160 What we're talking about is preserving the happy state of young, particularly young girls so that they can grow without this interference of transactional sex and trafficking. 00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:08.240 So it's it's very difficult to represent that in in very, very quick sound bites. 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:18.720 So we do have a problem in terms of fundraising, because unless you understand the concept, but we I've just costed our program, coming back to what you're saying about prevention. 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:26.880 I just costed our program against a $4 million EU intervention in northern Nigeria, where again trafficking is rampant. 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:27.200 Right. 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:39.279 But when I looked at how their money is being spent, $2 million of that is going to the universities to do the analysis and the data work, and two million is going to the NGOs rolling out the program. 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:44.000 But a lot of those NGOs are run like businesses, so they're also taking

money off the top as well. 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:44.400 Right. 00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:50.400 So, yeah, so the reason when I compared our budgets to their budgets, we were infinitely cheaper. 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:59.920 And yet they're doing mass sensitization campaigns where they get the children, they assemble the children in front of them, they wag their finger at the children, they say, You will not be trafficked. 00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:06.400 They put a badge on them saying we are not for sale, and then they drive off into the wild blue yonder, and there's no impact. 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:06.960 Yeah. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:14.000 Some great pictures for the donors, 9,000 miles away but not a lot of bang for their buck, as we say. 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:22.079 So so yeah, so we teach you know, very specific protected behaviors which you don't get in mass sensitization campaigns. 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:23.519 Wow. 00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:29.039 Speechless again, second time, second time in one episode. 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.680 Maybe I should ask you some questions, Lyn. 00:27:31.920 --> 00:27:35.920 Yeah, maybe, because I feel a little bit dumbfounded by all of this. 00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:40.240 I mean, I think you're very effective in communicating the program. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:42.559 I'm it's sinking in hard for me. 00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:50.079 So so what's this work look like for you as founder and CEO of Hope Education Project? 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:52.960 What does the day-to-day look like? 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:58.160 Well, the day-to-day at the moment is that we have I've set up a UK charity. 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:05.279 We've also got a 501c3 in the States but predominantly we're focusing on the UK charity because the governance is so high. 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:06.960 So it gives us credibility. 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:10.400 I mean, setting up a UK charity is no mean feat in itself. 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:17.279 Running it is almost a full-time occupation because of the legislation, all the policies we've got to have in place. 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:26.240 In terms of our program, we the the school's program takes place in a like over five weeks. 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:32.640 So we go into a school, we're we're working inside of the Ghana Education Service curriculum. 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:43.680 So that means we are we get all the permissions that are given in loco parenthesis by virtue of that affiliation with the Ghana Education Service. 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.000 So we go into the school and we do five modules over five weeks. 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:53.119 And in Ghana, each education stream in a junior school is roughly 100 pupils. 00:28:53.119 --> 00:29:04.480 So we take 50 of those pupils, stream one and we work with boys and girls between 11 and 15, and we go into the school with two presenters. 00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:09.680 Interestingly enough, when we first started this work, the the language

in Ghana is English. 00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:14.640 But the problem is that young children and the quality of teaching is not great. 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.480 So the young children are being taught in English, but they don't understand English very well. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:30.960 So when we when we did our first intervention, we started off talking in English, and then halfway through I said to Mary Art, my program sturator, we need to talk in Dagbani, the local language, because we're not gonna get nowhere here. 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:31.279 Right. 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:46.640 And the minute minute we switched the Dagbani, everybody was engaged and excited because it's it's very easy to teach these kids because they're very open to new ideas, and anyone who's sort of energized and engaging with them, they love it. 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:54.160 So so the program itself is a mix of traditional classroom teaching and on their feet learning. 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.400 So we call it participatory theater. 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.480 So we teach a bit, we get them to get on their feet and act it out. 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.799 We teach a bit, we give them exercises. 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:09.519 So we teach them like the rights of children but we balance that with their obligations as well. 00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:33.039 We tell them what the basics of of human trafficking is, and then in the next session, we teach them about you know what what are the tactic who are the traffickers, what are the tactics used, what makes people vulnerable, who are who are the the victims of trafficking, and then we teach them a couple of core skills, which is one refusal skills, how to say no to an offer, and then the concept of three trusted adults. 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.400 So you find three trusted adults and you check out your decisions with one of those trusted adults. 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:45.839 So we make the children name at least one trusted adult that they can go home and you know share their decision making with. 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:55.279 Because very often in these communities, the children have very little to do with their father, because the father is a is the head of the household and the mother does all of the parenting. 00:30:55.279 --> 00:31:02.079 So the father does the rulemaking and and leads the house and generally manages the farm. 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:02.319 Yeah. 00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:05.519 And and and then the mothers are responsible for the parenting. 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:17.359 So so for the children you know, it's very important that they find other adults and identify other adults, and and generally they'll be older brothers or cousins or a teacher or an imam as well. 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.279 And then in module three, we teach them about online safety. 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:34.799 We teach them about you know sharing new photographs, for example, accepting stranger requests on on Facebook, which I have to say is an absolute evil in West Africa for trafficking. 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.559 Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:37.119 Really? All of them. 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:45.119 It's all of them are recruitment channels for naked photographs, trafficking, romance scams. 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:54.960 So we teach them the basics of you know securing your password, not sharing too much personal information, not meeting people without taking a friend along, that type of thing. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:10.480 And then we use and then we teach the children about recruitment tactics of traffickers, but we also talk to the boy, the the class about how boys also use those tactics of grooming to get transactional sex from the girls. 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.200 So we try and wrap that bit into one piece. 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:21.359 And then in the fourth module, we take all the stories that we've been running through from modules one, two, and three, and we get the children to create plays. 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:31.680 So we get them to create three basic plays, and then we say to them, we've given you the basics, you've acted out the basics, now go away and flesh that out with your own ideas and your own costumes. 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:36.160 And then in the fifth module, they come back and they present those plays to the rest of the school. 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:36.880 I love it. 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:43.440 and and it works very well, and then we give them a handout at the end, which is a very, it's a very polished-looking document. 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:49.279 And the reason we've done that is because we want the hits to attract value to it, because they have so few things. 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:53.200 But if you give them something that looks nice, they want to keep it looking nice as well. 00:32:53.200 --> 00:33:07.680 So we give them this 12-page book, you know, properly stapled, like a grown-up, grown-up brochure, which contains word searches, cartoons, games, culturally appropriate girls in hijabs, that type of thing. 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.640 And it contains all of the information in the course. 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:17.920 And what we found was that the kids are taking it home to their compounds and they're reading it to their mothers, to their brothers, to their cousins. 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.000 And we found that at least five other people are reading that handout when they get home. 00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.519 So we turn the children into advocates when they get home. 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:30.000 And we anecdotally, I'll give you a bit of evidence that it works. 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:38.079 We we have a saying which is our our our slogan is be smart, be strong, say no when things feel wrong. 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:46.640 And my program's Mariama, about three months after the program, was having a hairmaid in a roadside hairdo place. 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:51.279 And she heard this be smart,

be strong, say no when things are wrong in the background. 00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:52.720 And she said, Hey, who said that? 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:56.640 And this girl appears and she said, I don't recognize you, you weren't in any of our classes. 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:59.599 And she said, No, no, some boy in my compound taught it to me. 00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:07.920 So you think, yes, you know, we are making an impact somewhere, even though we and this is one of the other problems, showing evidence that this works. 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:09.199 Right, that's one of the problems. 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:15.199 So we can show what reach we've got, but we don't actually know have we stopped one single person from being trafficked. 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:33.280 But what I can say anecdotally is that children themselves are having conversations amongst themselves because they often go home after school and they'll go around selling around the local area with maybe petty selling, selling soap or something off the top of their heads you know, in a basket and they wander around. 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:39.360 And but the kids were telling us that they were they had seen boys in the market now who they think had been trafficked. 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.599 They were talking about themselves, about being careful, walking around in groups. 00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:49.760 So we can anecdotally say that you know it is working, and the teachers are desperate for us to go back and do more. 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:51.440 I mean, that's a good thing too. 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:52.159 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:56.079 You know, you've mentioned this a couple of times, and so I want to go deeper on it. 00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:01.039 Can you talk about the role men and boys play in these efforts? 00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:03.039 Well, it's very important. 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:12.960 I didn't really see it in the beginning, but the problem is gender inequality is one of the driving factors of human trafficking, particularly in West Africa. 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:23.599 and particularly actually in the Muslim Dagomba parts of West Africa, because you've got a father who's the head of the household who has very little to do with the day-to-day management of his children. 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:27.119 And therefore, the father is kind of divorced from the children. 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:33.599 And the the roles of the boys and the girls are very separated by tradition. 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:43.679 So the girls would traditionally clean the compound in the morning, prepare the food, wash their brothers' clothes, they would go to school, come home, do the same thing again, and then they would go out selling. 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:45.679 And in the meantime, the boys have done nothing. 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.079 I mean, nothing during the day. 00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:58.239 And I often say to my the the young men in my compound who are sitting there watching their sisters do all this work, I often say to them, Do you ever feel guilty that your sister's doing this work? 00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.320 And they just sort of nod at me and no. 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:04.960 Wow, because it's just culturally accepted and expected. 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:07.119 Culturally accepted and expected. 00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:09.599 And who am I to make a judgment on that? 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:12.480 You know, it's I it's not I'm not there to cause trouble. 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:25.440 And it's very funny because the men in my area don't get me at all because I'm a down on the floor with the babies and the children mucking around, chatting all day to the women who are sewing and what have you. 00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:30.320 And the men don't understand that kind of involvement. 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.800 One of the men actually told me I I bought the kids in my neighborhood a football. 00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:37.039 And they were just delighted. 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:40.239 They play football all the time, but they play with whatever they can find. 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:48.320 And one of the fathers came up to Mariama, our programs manager, and said, Hey, why is your boss wasting his money with on a football for our children? 00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.320 And she said, Hey, are you mad? 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:52.400 I mean, it's like $10 for a football. 00:36:52.400 --> 00:37:00.639 And there you are, you've got 20, 30 children entertained, even if that ball only lasts a week, you know, that is great value for money. 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:12.239 So, but I mean, that the whole piece is about for me about men and boys is engaging men and boys in the conversation to see young women as equals and and not and to respect them. 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:16.800 So even if they don't see them as equals, to at least respect them and look out for them. 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:29.519 And the problem is at the from what I see is that because of this gender inequality, there is no, there are very few opportunities for the girls that they don't actually have to fight hard for. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:41.840 and in a way, it's just a way of saying, you know, let's let's just take the load off those young women and let's enable them or at least look out for them and protect them rather than what happens at the moment. 00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:46.000 In in in northern Ghana, we have a particular problem with a class of girls called kayayei. 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:56.000 Kayayei is a is a word from tree and gar, which are two southern languages, which means to carry a load on your head, effectively. 00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:56.559 Okay. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:07.760 So traditionally, so traditionally in the 1980s, between planting seasons, women would make the 600-mile migration south to go and work in the markets of Accra and Kumasi, and they would carry loads on their head. 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.639 That could be a pile of

bricks to a bale of clothes to somebody's personal shopping. 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:13.039 Okay. 00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:28.960 But what has happened because of climate change and gender inequality, these girls are effectively being liquidized because anytime money gets short and there's no yield coming in from the field, they effectively liquidize the young women and send them down south. 00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:34.559 And so those kayayei used to be women of 20, 30, 35, 40. 00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:36.800 Now they're six, seven, eight, nine, ten. 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:38.960 Oh my all the way down. 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:42.960 And that the markets are now full of these Kayayei girls from the north. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:46.480 And of course, they sleep on the streets, they're extremely vulnerable. 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:52.480 They're vulnerable to unwanted pregnancies, transactional sex labor trafficking, which is a big one. 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:56.079 I've rescued quite a few people in Ghana from labor trafficking. 00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.679 and you know, it's a it's a very tricky situation. 00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:01.760 So, again, educating the men. 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:12.079 When I go into the villages and I take my laptop with me and I show the mothers where their daughters are sleeping, they are horrified because they have no idea where Akrar is. 00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:15.599 It may as well be 10 miles down the road, not 600 miles down the road. 00:39:15.599 --> 00:39:21.199 So that's you can see why it's so easy to get traffic to Dubai, because it's just somewhere not here. 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:27.920 It's it's like in Ghana, if you say how far is their house, if they go like that, it means it's quite close. 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.559 If they go like that, it means it's miles away. 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:30.960 Yeah. 00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:37.039 So so they go, so when they go to Dubai, it's somewhere like there, but they they don't know where that might be. 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:46.480 So so you know, men are very protect, but it but it starts in schools, you know, men are transactional sex is a big problem in West Africa. 00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:49.039 It's not something that's really discussed very much. 00:39:49.039 --> 00:40:01.119 but because of the economic hardship for women, for some women, it is a way of making the rent, it's a way of putting food on the table for their children, it's a way of paying for their education. 00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:15.039 And what is happening because there is this unspoken acceptance that this is going on, is that men are exploiting that as men do where they they see a weakness and they exploit that weakness with offers of you know money and food. 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:24.320 So it's just about educating men that you know, how this the progression from that into trafficking, there is a route to progression. 00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:24.559 Yeah. 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:35.679 And the sexualization of young women, I've just read a bit of research actually, from Spanish high school children, high school girls, and it was a very small sample size. 00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:38.559 I think it was only 16 or 18 or something. 00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:56.239 But what they found is that girls, because of OnlyFans, girls are now not bothering to do their sixth form education because they can make more money on OnlyFans, I mean, temporar— allegedly or temporarily, and obviously it's not sustainable like getting a degree in aeronautical engineering, but they're seeing it as an immediate alternative. 00:40:56.239 --> 00:41:11.119 And what is what what what we're seeing in in West Africa is it's not difficult to extrapolate a girl having transactional sex in junior high school to buy data to get online, and then once she gets online, she opens a Facebook account. 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:25.679 And all of the girls that we interviewed, so we did three focus groups, all of there were 12 girls in each photo focus group, all of the girls, every single one within a week of opening a Facebook account had been sent naked pictures by men. 00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:33.039 And I actually tried this, I opened a Facebook account posing as a you know 16-year-old West African girl. 00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:35.599 Ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. 00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:37.360 It was terrifying. 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:38.400 I didn't believe them. 00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:39.920 I it was terrifying. 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:45.360 Yeah, and so these are young, you know, 11, 12, 13, 14-year-old girls. 00:41:45.360 --> 00:42:05.519 And so the the so they get they but they have transactional sex to buy data, they get onto auntie's phone, they get exploited on Facebook, and it's not too much of a leap to think that if somebody says, I'll send you $10 if you send me a naked picture of yourself, it's not too much of a leap to think that they're then going to be further exploited online for money. 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:08.559 So it's all you know, it's circular. 00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:17.360 And so bringing this into the conversation to make everybody aware of it, and you know, we're having this conversation, and I'm sensing that some of this information is even new to you. 00:42:17.599 --> 00:42:18.880 It is, it is, it's devastating. 00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:26.239 And and you and then you're a woman, you're a woman of the world that's widely traveled and you know and articulate. 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:32.559 So if if you're a young girl in a small village looking for a way out, it's very easy to trick them. 00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:38.480 So you have said so many impactful things today. 00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:58.559 And one is that, you know, this is the kind of thing that's hard to raise money for, it's hard to get attention for for people who are listening who want to support Hope Education Project through time, through treasure, through sharing

your story, through connecting with you. 00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:02.480 What is the best way for people to get more information? 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.280 Well, the best way is to go to our website, which is hopeeducationproject.org. 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:07.679 Okay. 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:17.199 And if and if you and if you are minded to donate, which we would be extremely grateful for is hopeeducationproject.org forward slash donate. 00:43:17.199 --> 00:43:21.199 Yeah we are a very lean organization. 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:25.039 I've self-funded this for five years, with the exception of one grant. 00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:32.719 and we have one employee who is or consultant who is Mariama in northern Ghana. 00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:37.199 Otherwise all our costs are are you know pretty flat. 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:41.440 So even with the research product, I've never taken a penny out of this. 00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:43.360 I only put money in. 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:56.079 And so we're very lean and we're very young, but we're having an enormous impact in our area, our tiny area of Tamale called Bolo Palasi, which is a very deprived area of northern Ghana. 00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:59.760 And the kids love what we do, and the head teachers love what we do, and we want to keep doing. 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:00.159 It. 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:01.039 I love it. 00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:01.599 I love it. 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:08.800 Well, on behalf of KidGlov and the Agency for Change, I'm going to jump on as soon as we're done and make a starter donation. 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:20.800 And I'm going to ask our listeners to do the same and help out these young women, these kids, Angus, and his efforts to do this meaningful work. 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:25.199 And we'll have that link to your website in the show notes as well, Angus. 00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:26.400 Alright. 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:29.199 I need you to pick me up a little bit because you are right. 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:33.039 You have shared some things today that I don't think about very often. 00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:40.719 Quite frankly, I don't want to think about them, which is also why it's hard to get the message out and raise money for this type of thing. 00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.599 Angus, I'm inspired by motivational quotes. 00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:45.360 Our listeners know this. 00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:51.360 I would love a few of your own words of wisdom to inspire our listeners. 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:58.400 Well, my wife is going to kill me because my wife will have no negative talk in the house at all. 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.400 And we— my life is full of suffering and negativity. 00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:09.119 So our motto in our household is people are infinitely disappointing. 00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:15.679 When we most need people to step up, you know, we need people to step up. 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:22.159 But my own motivational quote, but it's kind of not a motivational quote, but it's about poverty is not a look. 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:23.920 It's about the way we judge people. 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:25.440 So poverty is not a look. 00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.280 You cannot see poverty. 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:32.079 And I'll tell you why I say that, because I live in a slum community in northern Tamale. 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:43.679 And at the end of Ramadan I was privileged to be there during Ramadan, although the mosque going off at 3:30 to remind everybody that the mosque is going to go off again at 4:30 was not welcome. 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:47.760 But I managed to work out a way to sleep through that for myself. 00:45:47.760 --> 00:46:02.719 But but when people came out on for Eid al-Fitr, which is at the end of Ramadan, my goodness, we could have been on you know Fifth Avenue, we could have been on Oxford Street or or Sloane Street. 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:06.880 It was staggering how beautiful and clean everybody looked. 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:16.559 So it's it's very easy to judge people by what they look like and where they live but it's also get it's also very easy to misjudge how people are. 00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:21.280 So that my second quote, which I'm afraid is only two words, which is be curious. 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:25.199 Yes, you know, be curious for your fellow man and ask questions. 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:29.599 Because when you go to the car wash, just start a conversation with the guy who's washing your car. 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:36.559 When you go for a nail bar appointment, just start a conversation with the girl who's doing your nails and just look for the signs that maybe she things aren't right. 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:38.320 But check out in your local area. 00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:39.519 You know, what is the sign? 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:44.079 Some sometimes in pubs here, we have a thing like, can you order me a pizza? 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:46.159 You know, would mean can you phone the police? 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.239 You know, what what are the keywords? 00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.440 What is the trafficking, you know, what's the number of the trafficking hotline? 00:46:51.440 --> 00:47:01.920 So, and then in terms of like funny quotes that I like or quotes that have served me, there is one from one of your countrymen, Henry Winkler, who provoked yeah, Mr. 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:02.320 Fonz. 00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:02.719 Mr. 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:03.679 Fonz, hey! 00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:05.840 Yeah, he said, that's right. 00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:12.480 Hey, he said, it wasn't until I had a son of my own telling me I was wrong that I realized my father was right. 00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.039 Yeah. 00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:23.199 And I love that quote because it means that I'm, you know, there's certain things in my life that are inevitable. 00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:27.679 Like I am going to be a bit like my father, but I also have the power to change that as

well. 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:33.280 But I mean, it really is true that you know, all the things I held true when I was younger are really not true. 00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:36.880 And and there are people ahead of me with more wisdom that I can learn from. 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:38.800 So just keep an open mind. 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:39.760 I love it. 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:41.119 You know what, Angus? 00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:42.639 I have loved this conversation. 00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:54.719 And even though you twice have rendered me speechless here, I so appreciate your time and the opportunity to shine a light on this work. 00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:03.840 And so as we wrap up this conversation, what is the most important thing you would like people to remember about the work that you're doing? 00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:07.840 About the work that I'm doing or remember in general? 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:14.480 Because the work that I'm doing is is, you know, everybody could be doing this work in some part or another. 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:19.760 You know, just don't you don't have to go to West Africa to look for this work or Dubai. 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:26.719 You can look around your own town around human trafficking and modern slavery and and get informed about what modern slavery looks like. 00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:41.519 Because we, you know, increasingly in this world where we are have this enormous concentration of wealth in a huge few hands, it's increasingly important that we use people power by voting, by voting with our feet. 00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:44.719 So taking action against things that we don't like. 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:51.519 And if human trafficking and and modern slavery is your area, just be mindful. 00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:53.119 You know, is this person happy? 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:54.320 You know, just ask the question. 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:55.199 Hey, how are you doing? 00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:56.000 Are you happy today? 00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:56.800 Do you need help? 00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:59.519 Or, you know, so so I think it's just being vigilant. 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:00.639 Yeah, vigilant. 00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:02.800 And and we have tremendous power to change things. 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:04.880 We don't have to wait for somebody to do this for us. 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:07.920 We can just we can make a difference ourselves. 00:49:08.079 --> 00:49:13.760 Yeah, you have told us today be vigilant, be curious, and be awake, right? 00:49:13.760 --> 00:49:14.320 Awake. 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:15.679 All those three things. 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:19.280 My friends, my sorry one last thing, Lyn. 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:25.519 My friend always told me the world is full of people dreaming thinking they're awake. 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:25.920 Uh-huh. 00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:28.239 Oh yeah. 00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:29.280 Yes, that's right. 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:31.280 Yeah, dreaming, thinking they're awake. 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:38.880 And we're we're not seeing the reality of our situation, partly because it's denial, because we're protecting ourselves in our own cozy world. 00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:41.599 But we need to come out of that and look at our fellow human beings. 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:56.559 And with the pressure of climate change and the wars that are going on, prices are going up in West Africa because you know, grain, oil, supplies from the Gulf, because they don't, you know, like you guys grow your own grain, they don't, they don't in West Africa. 00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:59.840 And grain is a staple there, so maize as well. 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:02.400 So, so yeah, we just need to be more awake. 00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:03.119 Wow. 00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:10.800 Angus, I'm so glad you reached out to me that we connected, that we had this conversation, that you and I are now friends. 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:21.280 I want to say that I fully believe the world needs more people like you that take action, more nonprofits like Hope Education Project. 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:24.239 I really appreciate you taking time with us today. 00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:25.599 Thank you for having me. 00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:31.039 It's been great to get to know you, and I appreciate your giving me voice for this. 00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:31.519 Thank you. 00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:32.559 Absolutely. 00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:36.400 We'll get this story out to as many people as we can, Angus. 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:37.360 Thank you. 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:42.000 We hope you enjoyed today's Agency for Change podcast. 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:54.800 To hear all our interviews with those who are making a positive change in our communities, or to nominate a changemaker you'd love to hear from, visit kidglov.com at kidg-lo-v dot com to get in touch. 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:59.440 As always, if you like what you've heard today, be sure to rate, review, subscribe, and share. 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.079 Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.