התמלול המלא של Stop Overthinking Your LinkedIn Posts! ft. Sarah Clay

there. I ha David Bancroft: Amazing. Sarah Clay: I had it on my radar from seeing, you know, social posts the previous year and thought it looked quite cool. and I'm an outdoorsy sort of person, so being outdoors all day is perfect. as long David Bancroft: Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Sarah Clay: as it wasn't raining, which it wasn't, thank goodness. But no, David Bancroft: No, it's good. Sarah Clay: I thought it was a brilliant festival and I will hopefully be going back next year. David Bancroft: No doubt, absolutely. And one of things I liked, I go to a of expos and a lot of them are in conference centers or the Excel or Olympia or NEC or somewhere of that kind. But the fresh air makes a difference, doesn't it? I'm sure it does. Everyone seemed happier. Sarah Clay: Everyone was so much happier. People were much more open to conversation and chat and stopping. people were behaving much freer, I thought, much more freely and open. Yeah, I thought the whole David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: atmosphere was so much different from any el anything else I've been to before really. David Bancroft: And I have to give a shout out to the friend that you were there with. You have to remind me of her name because between you and her, you were very noticeable. I'm going to leave it there. Maybe I'll put a picture up overlaid to this video. You're pretty noticeable, you two, right? Sarah Clay: Amanda Fitzgerald PR will be so chuffed that you have raised her and brought her into this conversation, David. So Amanda's title is Major Visibility, and you probably will remember she was wearing her major visibility hat. And David Bancroft: So, so visible. Sarah Clay: so visible. And I'm about branding, personal branding, not being a well, I one of my I think when I'm going through my trainings with my clients, don't be a yellow duck, be a purple one. And I have this brilliant picture of a whole load of plastic ducks all together, all yellow ones and the purple ones in the middle. And that's how to stand out, that's how to get visibility is by being different. Yes, of course it can be how you look and what you wear, but it doesn't have to be, it can be what you say. And if you're saying David Bancroft: course. Sarah Clay: things that are different from everybody else, you will stand out. So it's all about standing out, being different from everybody else. So yes, David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: Amanda Fitzgerald and I did we did cut quite a Quite a visual, I think. David Bancroft: And our listeners will have heard James and I speaking about Ideas Fest and they'll know all about the igloo, but we had fun at the Yeti throw, didn't we? Sarah Clay: We had such fun at the Etty Throw and I am quite competitive as you obviously realised. And to be David Bancroft: Didn't notice. Sarah Clay: to to be top of that leaderboard even for ten minutes, which I think I managed to hold it there for about ten minutes, was such David Bancroft: Yes, yes. Sarah Clay: an honour. I I I was so proud of myself for getting, you know, more beans through more bean bags through the holes than David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: anybody else. What an achievement, you know. David Bancroft: And actually you say 10 minutes or so at the time we had used inadvertently in a marker, was indelible. So Sarah Clay: Yeah. David Bancroft: how do we get this name off? So you were there, even if a little smudged for quite a lot longer, it took, I think it was nail varnish remover in the end that peeled you from that board. So well done. Sarah Clay: Thank you. David Bancroft: But no, good event. Yeah, I, one, I'd be back in a heartbeat. But yeah, the, yeah, the event seemed amazing. Chuffed to see Frank Bruno. I'm a big fan, like big Frank and yeah, what a good event. I spoke in the intro, Sarah, about your career journey today. And I think it's fair to say it's been unconventional as a career journey thus far. Going right back then, I mean, what did you think originally you were going to do with your life? You know, and how has that now differed in reality? Sarah Clay: Well, that's a great question, David, because when I was about probably about twelve, I think, I remember saying to my mum, Mum, I've decided. When I'm, you know, when I'm grown up, I'm going to go into marketing. I didn't know David Bancroft: Okay. Sarah Clay: what marketing even was then. I think somebody had mentioned it and I thought it looked quite cool. So I thought, that's what I'm gonna do. So my mum, who bless her, RIP mother, was a little bit of a snob. And she said, no, darling. She said, I remember she we were baking. And she said, Don't do that, darling. Do something worthy instead. David Bancroft: worthy what word wow Sarah Clay: So I think she wanted me to go and work for a charity or something, which of course I could have still done if it I've gone into marketing. But so that kind of put me off a little bit. And then she died when I was quite young. And then I my dad always used to introduce me as the pretty one in the family, because I'm the only girl, I've got brothers. And I thought, right, I'm going to show you. I'm not stupid, I'm cleverer than these boys. So David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: I decided to be a lawyer. Which was really not a clever decision at all. 'cause I hated it. You know, it David Bancroft: That was just because of the academic weight that being a solicitor, Sarah Clay: Ooh. David Bancroft: being a lawyer, studying law carries. It just seemed like this will show them. Sarah Clay: This will show my dad ha that I'm clever because he put a lot of, you know, points on that sort of career. He was an accountant. So of course when I started studying David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: law, he thought I was the best thing since sliced bread and thought I was very clever. And then I of course I stopped David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: studying law and he didn't think that. But he was still loved me all the same. David Bancroft: Yeah. Did you study it for

long enough to find legal dramas amusing as in like what on earth are they doing here? Sarah Clay: Yes, I probably did actually and yes, because my first placement in my when I was actually practicing in a law firm was in the probate department and my first David Bancroft: Okay, yeah. Sarah Clay: case that I worked on was a a big probate argument with the dad had died and left a massive house full of stuff and all the kids we who were grown up at the time were all arguing about this, that and the other and it was all quite weird and I thought why why don't they just agree to split everything up and that's fine. But yeah, yeah, so it w I did s I did see a few interesting things for sure. David Bancroft: No doubt, absolutely. obviously coming to modern day via and this caught my eye. And obviously we're going to speak a lot about LinkedIn and I'm enthusiastic about that. I love LinkedIn. I'm a contributor. I love engaging. My business these days is sustained by inbound clients So, you know, I'm all for LinkedIn. But St.Courtmire and your profile, and I mentioned it again in the intro, you lost 85 % of your clients during the pandemic. Obviously that's an opportunity where you could have retreated, obviously. But instead, seemingly, and we haven't spoken about this, so I'm interested, you've reinvented your business. What was going through your mind at that point? And how did you probably find the confidence to spin it up and do it again? Sarah Clay: Well, it was called desperation, David, I have to say. So what happened? David Bancroft: It's a strong motivator. Sarah Clay: So what happened? I r I started out this kind of whole social media thing, running a social media agency. so I trained as a I did a nine month course with a company which was called Digital Mums back then. It's no longer in existence, but it was an online course, it was absolutely brilliant, some sort of basic marketing and how to use social media and we had to set up accounts and run accounts and stuff. So it was great, really good course. And I set up a social media agency and we were doing really well in the hospitality space and getting quite a name for ourselves. And I think I had about eight or nine hospitality clients, pubs, restaurants, that kind of thing. Four of or five of which were in the Fuller's group. David Bancroft: Okay, yeah. Sarah Clay: Of course, and we were doing everything for them, the filming, the photography. I was running around London like a loo, you know, hands-on, David Bancroft: Hehehe Sarah Clay: filming things and creating videos. It was such fun. It was absolutely brilliant. I had my little team, and it was great, really, really good fun. And then, of course, when lockdown happened, all of the hospitality spaces were offered furlough. So not only did they have to close anyway, because we couldn't go and visit them. I was trying to encourage one of them a particular well, I won't mention it, but to to carry on online. Keep David Bancroft: Okay, yeah. Sarah Clay: an online presence, because they had some real characters that worked behind the bar in this particular pub in Twickenham, which is a very quite well known rugby pub, won't mention the name. And I said, come on, David Bancroft: Hehehe. Sarah Clay: we can get these guys and we can do an online thing and you can do takeaways, you can do deliveries, all of this kind David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: of thing. Really wanted them to flip it round. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: And they said, well, actually, no, because the furlough scheme that the government are offering is so good for us. And we have to do it across every we have to be the same across every single pub and restaurant. David Bancroft: Yeah, okay, yeah. Sarah Clay: We have to close. We are not allowed to promote ourselves, which was part of the furlough scheme. So yeah, David Bancroft: Wow, that's a deal, yeah. Sarah Clay: that was the deal with the government. So I was fired overnight. That was me gone. David Bancroft: Wow. Wow. Sarah Clay: So that was me thinking, heck, what am I gonna do now? And of course I don't know if you David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: remember, but at that time that's when LinkedIn really rocketed because everybody realised they needed more online presence and were better than the biggest B to B platform in the world, LinkedIn. David Bancroft: So my memory of that time is LinkedIn and Clubhouse. I think it was called, wasn't it? Sarah Clay: Yes. I loved Clubhouse at that time. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, well, what I mean, that's like a firework, isn't it? a big bang and then suddenly just vaporized. I don't know. Is it still a thing anymore? I don't hear of it. Sarah Clay: It well, it did go on for quite a lot longer, but I think it was purely the most amazing timing because Clubhouse was rolling out anyway, and it just David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: happened to coincide with everybody being locked in their houses, and it was perfect. Absolutely perfect. David Bancroft: Mm. Yeah, it's, I always think, and I mean, this isn't unique to me, obviously, I always think in years to come, we'll talk about lockdown to younger people who missed out on it. They didn't see it. They weren't a part of it. They couldn't, in my mind, comprehend what that entailed. But for you, wasn't just, you know, sit at home, be furloughed. It was actually, you know, a critical loss of revenue and... presumably a real panic as in what you do next. So you've got your pubs and was hospitality by design or did it just sort of organically move in that direction? Sarah Clay: No, actually I have to say, David, and I will confess this and you you may publish this that not much in my life is by design. It all just happens to me. So David Bancroft: Worse ways to set your stall out, I guess, go with the flow. But okay, Sarah Clay: Yeah. David Bancroft: so it wasn't by the way, it just happened that way. And to be honest, you know, often when I speak to business

owners who have a niche whereby they are famous to that niche, it was never because they actually went after it, it's because they won a couple of clients in that space. And that is the best. But, you know, I work with Rolls Royce or I'm going to go and speak to Bentley. You know, I work with Coca-Cola. Sarah Clay: Yeah, exactly. David Bancroft: I'm going to and speak to Pepsi. There's an immediate connection, isn't there? So I get it. And if it's not by design, it's understandable how that would have happened. But anyhow, your clients are predominantly, as you said, in hospitality sector. They've shut down, furlough, prevent them from promoting themselves. And obviously consistency online is the key, isn't it? So that's gone. So what's the next step? How do you get from that all singing and all dancing, running around the city and having fun with, you know, recording crews and, and whatnot to... Suddenly being a link, I'm going say, I almost said LinkedIn guru, Sarah, sorry. I'm going to say it. I'm going say it. I'm going to go LinkedIn. How do you become a LinkedIn guru out of the carcass Sarah Clay: I don't mind. David Bancroft: of that situation? Sarah Clay: I don't mind really this phrase LinkedIn guru. I know we talked about this before. It's as long as we take it quite lightheartedly, I don't I don't mind it at all. Yeah, exactly, thank you. Yeah that's very true. Yeah. David Bancroft: Yes, it's how it's meant. Yeah. And I said it, not you. That's important. That is an important footnote. I said that, not you. But anyway, as you are, yeah. Sarah Clay: Well, I I'll tell you what happened. So everybody was jumping onto LinkedIn and I had already been using LinkedIn to market myself and my services and I was quite enjoying the space actually and and having quite a laugh. And and it was kind it was working. I don't think I at that time got clients through LinkedIn, but I think I'd certainly got visibility and perhaps referrals. So it was working David Bancroft: Mm. Mm. Sarah Clay: for me and I as I say, I was enjoying myself there and I was building my network. And then somebody sent me an email. And I'm I'm gonna have to find out who this person was. I think I know. And she David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: said, I love what you're doing on LinkedIn, Sarah. Can you teach me how to do what you're doing? And David Bancroft: Nice. Sarah Clay: that was it. So I called up my friend at the time, a gentleman called John Aspirian, who was very good on LinkedIn. He was at that time a technical copywriter and also using LinkedIn to get business. he his approach to LinkedIn and what life in general is very different from mine and he's very analytical, he he breaks things down. So I messaged him and I said, John, I think I need to get better at LinkedIn and actually somebody's approached me and they want me to train them. I completely honest with him. And I said, Can you teach me? Can you do a LinkedIn, you know, trainer for the trainer sort of David Bancroft: Yeah, Sarah Clay: And he went, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. David Bancroft: yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Sarah Clay: So I paid John and we had a couple of hours together or something, and I thought, well, actually, I kind of know all this, but that it was really, really helpful, I have to say. David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: So on the back of that, I wrote emailed this person back and said, Yeah, you know what, I can teach you, and I'm gonna teach a load of other people as well, because that's what I'm going to do. That's my pivot, if you like. So David Bancroft: Yeah, yes. Sarah Clay: I literally stayed up all night, rebranded myself, changed my website, changed my socials. And woke up the next morning a LinkedIn trainer. David Bancroft: You're like Madonna, just reinventing yourself. Sarah Clay: Yes, I did a bit. But it was it was out of necessity and I I David Bancroft: Wow. Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: knew it was going to be the right thing. I had a lot of kickback at that time from my fellow marketing friends and colleagues. You're just an idiot, don't be so silly. It's too niche. David Bancroft: Did you really? Sarah Clay: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They said it's too niche. You'll get bored, there's not enough on LinkedIn to, you know, keep going financially or whatever. And I said, David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: Well, look, that's the only option I've got for now. I'm doing it for now. If it works, it works it doesn't it doesn't kind of thing. So I wrote a six week programme. I opened a membership and it started from there. Yeah. David Bancroft: Can I, I'm going to give you, I'm going give you one of those. Sarah Clay: Yeah. See the thing is, David, David Bancroft: Awesome. Sarah Clay: I'm such a show off that that makes me feel great. So thank you. David Bancroft: Yes. There you go. Just to fuel you through the rest of the chat. Sarah Clay: Thank you. David Bancroft: John is... I'm connected with John actually. He's got podcast, hasn't he? Sarah Clay: I should imagine. Mm, he's got has he got a podcast? He's got a membership which actually I was a member of then I came out, but I think I'm gonna go back in again. no he's great. He's a great guy. Great guy, John. David Bancroft: Spoiler alert. Yeah, yeah. good, good. So you mentioned there obviously a six-week program, membership, subscription, etc.. That's how you deliver the core of your advisory, is it? Or do you have one-on-ones or do you have something else that would be retained, Sarah Clay: So I was working then with entrepreneurs, owner-managed business, you know, business people, small, very small businesses. And I was enjoying it, but I I I I knew there was more. I knew I could do more for people. And I couldn't quite work out what it was. And David Bancroft: Okay. Yeah. Sarah Clay: then somebody I knew from I don't know from whatever, I can't really remember now approached me and said, Can you train my company? All of us. f five of them, six of them, can you train all of us

how to do LinkedIn? And I thought, you know what, that's really clever. That's what I should be doing. And David Bancroft: Hmm Sarah Clay: in fact, when I was running the pubs or running the social media for the pubs, because I couldn't be in all the pubs at the same time, I used to give the bar staff the logins of the Instagram page and get them to post. on post onto the stories and then at the end of every month I would measure the analytics of all the stories and go and visit all the pubs and we David Bancroft: Okay, yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: would award a bottle of gin or a bottle of vodka to the person who created the story that had the best reach. David Bancroft: Yeah, nice. Sarah Clay: And I was thinking, we could do this with this company. We should be doing this in companies, getting them to do it on LinkedIn. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: And then I thought, well, how do I do this? Should I how is there a system? So I went David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: online and it was discovered it was called employee advocacy. It had a name. Was there anything David Bancroft: There you go. Sarah Clay: written about it? No. So I wrote David Bancroft: Wow. Sarah Clay: it. David Bancroft: Well, you know what? I would usually wait till a bit later in the pod for this, but I think that segues quite perfectly into your book recommendation. I'm getting the sense that I might be getting warmer here. So maybe we should just bring this forward a little bit. So if you don't mind, Sarah, what's your book recommendation? Tell us a little bit about that, please. Sarah Clay: Well, thank you for asking. So yeah, so as I said, I this whole thing called Employee Advocacy, which is a ridiculous name, but anyway, it is a thing. I couldn't find anything about it. And there was a book on Amazon called Employee Advocacy, but it was not in print anymore and it looked a bit not great. So David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: I wrote one instead. Bada. So this David Bancroft: Voila. Sarah Clay: is my book recommendation because you gave me permission to use my own book. So this is my book. David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: employee advocacy David Bancroft: Brilliant. Sarah Clay: on LinkedIn. David Bancroft: I love that it is as concise and vertical as in on LinkedIn. It's not employee advocacy online or via socials. It is targeted to that audience, isn't it? It is vertical to LinkedIn. Amazing. Sarah Clay: It is and it is the only book that is specifically employee advocacy for LinkedIn specifically. The only book written. Yes. David Bancroft: Whenever I have a good idea, no, no, no, no, scrub that. It's not whenever I have a good idea. Whenever I have an idea which I think is good, I always Sarah Clay: Okay. David Bancroft: think, I always think, you know, this is amazing. It's a great idea. I go online and do a bit research. Someone's already there. They've already thought about it. It's a great idea for 10 seconds till I realized someone else has already monetized it. For you to say that that is the only book covering that subject matter, that's just unbelievable to me. I can't... Yeah, no, but how big's their community? Sarah Clay: to LinkedIn with LinkedIn in the title. This is LinkedIn. This is how we do it on LinkedIn. David Bancroft: How big is LinkedIn now? mean, it's crossed the billion ticker, hasn't it now? So, Sarah Clay: Yeah, it is. Yeah, yeah, definitely. David Bancroft: you know, for something that is that widespread and far reaching, and it's not particular to the UK, Europe, it is a global platform, as we all know. And I remember when it used to be LinkedIn and Zing going head to head, and Sarah Clay: Yes. David Bancroft: that's going back a bit, but LinkedIn, That's probably be real. won that. So LinkedIn is the dominant platform globally. So it's unbelievable to me that no one else would have tried to appeal to that market as clearly you have. Sarah Clay: Well, possibly they have, but in the certainly in the title of the book, this is David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: the only one that clearly says we'll do this on LinkedIn and we're not doing it anywhere else. David Bancroft: But it has to, you know, your title needs to let people know. It needs to be what's on the tin, doesn't it? Sarah Clay: It does. The problem with using the word LinkedIn in the title is LinkedIn get a bit funny about it. So it can't so for example it can't be the first word in the title. That's why had to be further down. You can't say LinkedIn employee advocacy strategy, David Bancroft: Okay. Sarah Clay: for example. David Bancroft: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And you avoided the obvious use of blue and white throughout the entire design and trying to piggyback the brand that they would have probably honed in on pretty quickly, I would have thought. Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: Yeah, yeah, I think they would have. Yeah. Yeah, you've got to be a bit careful. David Bancroft: How long ago did you release it? Sarah Clay: It was published in September twenty twenty five. David Bancroft: Nice. Okay. So just over a year ago. Sarah Clay: Just over a year. And what I tried to do and I think I have done here is David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Sarah Clay: it is a bit of a how-to, but it's more of a mindset shift book. It's a lot about David Bancroft: I like that. Sarah Clay: the why, because I didn't want to write a book, so do this, do that, do the other, because I knew it would be out of date in no time at all. There's David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: one tiny little bit in here that is now no longer out of in date, which is LinkedIn hashtags, which we don't use anymore. David Bancroft: It's an, I'm glad you say that because we previously had someone in the posts on the pod site, Irina, who at the time said to me, Dave hashtags steer clear of them. They're not effective. They don't add value. If anything, they distract from the content and show that maybe you don't actually know how to use the platform after all. Sarah Clay:

Yeah. David Bancroft: And I was okay. I'll go with that. I'll trust you. I have faith. So I'm happy to hear you double down on that. And Sarah Clay: Yes. David Bancroft: yeah, I mean, cause you still see it. Obviously, you still see people Sarah Clay: Mm. David Bancroft: using hashtags. Sarah Clay: Yeah, and if an event's got a hashtag, for example, as an event hashtag, yes, you would use that. But David Bancroft: Hmm. Sarah Clay: generally no, hashtags as you quite rightly said, or Irena said, they just show that you don't really know how to use the platform. So don't use them. David Bancroft: I wasn't going to do this now, but you've just awoken something in me which I can't seem to put to rest ever. And it's a gripe about LinkedIn. I love the platform, but there's one thing I dislike. And I dislike it more than anything else on the platform. And I don't know if you hear of this much or if you consult on this much or if you have any ideas as to why this isn't an option. I've posted about this and it generally gets a bit of traction. It seems to be something people agree on. And that is time sensitive posts. So for example, if I post to say something about the recruitment industry generally across the last month or quarter, that's cool. I don't care if there's longevity on that, that works. know, someone can pick that up today, tomorrow, next week, next month. It's still potentially relevant. But if I'm talking about, let's use Ideas Fest, Can't wait for Ideas Fest this week. It's gonna be amazing. Let me know if you're there. I don't think there's any value in my audience seeing that three weeks after it happened. Because look, I'm gonna follow up with posts about Ideas Fest and there can be longevity there. I have campaigned for, I've even sent into LinkedIn suggestion box, whatever it might be. I just wish there was a toggle switch. Is this post time sensitive? Just like for example, and hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend. What good is that in a month's time? Sarah Clay: Ooh, now two I've got two responses to you here on that. So jet most posts generally would have gone if you're talking about Ideas Fest the week before, and then Ideas Fest, most of your posts the week before would be so far down in somebody's feed that it makes no difference whether it's there or not because they're not going to David Bancroft: Yes. Yep. Yep. Sarah Clay: come across it. Unfortunately, the algorithm is doing something a bit kooky and weird at the moment. where David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: it's displaying and it's presenting posts that should qu which are up to about three weeks old, right up at the top of your feet. That's the problem. David Bancroft: Yes. There you go. There you go. Sarah Clay: I think that is the problem. I think if those posts a post three weeks previous should not be appearing in some at the top of somebody's feed. It just should David Bancroft: No, I like longevity, don't get me wrong. And I value that. And I think that if you're creating good content and if people are engaging in it, then yeah, let it have legs and let people find it and discover it in the future. But if it is time sensitive, i.e. don't miss a webinar on this afternoon, that's cool. But if Sarah Clay: Yeah. David Bancroft: someone sees it in three weeks time and they think, yeah, that's awesome. How do I register? And it's gone. You know, I get that it's still. engaging and I get that still showing people that you're active in that space and all of that's good. But I just wish there was a toggle that says, is this time sensitive? Because if so, awesome. dislike, I dislike seeing at the end of January, someone wishing their network a happy Christmas. I don't know, maybe I'm a Grinch, but it just bugs me, frankly. Sarah Clay: Well, with the amount of posts that are going out onto LinkedIn, as I say, those posts should not be showing. But they are. I mean, you know, it's a LinkedIn David Bancroft: But they are, yeah. Sarah Clay: algorithm thing. And I suppose you could one could go and delete a post that they published, but you shouldn't have to do that. David Bancroft: No, no, I'm not a fan of personally deleting posts. like to think. Sarah Clay: And it doesn't the link to the algorithm doesn't like us deleting posts. David Bancroft: No, no, no, absolutely. I always look for a word of the day on the pod. And if you don't mind, I'm going to make kooky the word of the day, because I thought that was good, word, good use of the word kooky. The LinkedIn algorithm is kooky. So you did? Yeah, yeah, there Sarah Clay: Did I say that? David Bancroft: you go. I picked up on it and it's now word of the day in indelible. It has been crystallized Sarah Clay: Brilliant. I love David Bancroft: in this pod, kooky. Okay, so. gone in tips and tricks. What works then? I've spoken about something I dislike and you you've spoken to that, but what works in the platform at the moment? What should we all be doing more of? Sarah Clay: What should all be doing more of? I'll tell you what we should be doing less of is overthinking. So too many people Yeah. Write David Bancroft: I'm such a fan of this answer. I know where you're going with this. I love this. Yeah, I love this. Sarah Clay: it and actually I posted about it today. interestingly enough, and I didn't know you were gonna ask me this question, so David Bancroft: synergy. Sarah Clay: Synergy indeed. So People overthink, they think, right, I've I've got to use all the right keywords, I've got to use the key phrases because I want to come up in AI search and LinkedIn search and everything else search, and then I've got to post at this particular time, and then I've got to write it like this, and I've got to have my hook, and I've got to write this, and I've got my image has to be this size and this colour, by the time you've done all of that thinking, your post is going to look pretty sterile, probably. and that's if you ever get around to posting at all. David

Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. Sarah Clay: So stop overthinking it folks and just get out there and start posting. Think David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: about what your audience is interested or vaguely interested in, and and have a go is, David Bancroft: for anyone that watches the pod, listens to the pod, they'll know that I have a very hard and fast rule where LinkedIn video is concerned. And many years ago, I made a commitment to myself and for what it's worth, my audience, that every video I release is one take, full stop. I don't do any more than one take. And if you ever watch... any of my walking and talking videos, I might be talking about a job that I'm working on or talking about something that's just on my mind or something I think the community might be interested in. It's one take, a plane will go over and for 15 seconds, it's noisy. I don't care. A dog will sort of show me a bit of attention. I just don't care. I've bumped into cyclists. I've had joggers run around the corner or it's not me over whatever. I just don't care. I just keep it rolling and I just talk and deliver it. And I... believe wholeheartedly in authenticity of a one take video. Because I've been on the other side where I have overthought, I'm a perfectionist ordinarily and it's torturous, it's not helpful and the end product was always worse than if I'd just done it one take. That's my role, one take videos and a previous pod guest and she gets probably more time and reference on this pod than anyone else, Kat Edwards once said, and it totally resonated with me. Done is better than perfect. That's what we're talking about here, isn't it? Sarah Clay: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it is. and as I say, if it it it's just not very it's just not great when it's really stiff and you know, because it is David Bancroft: Mm, yeah. Sarah Clay: about being you because that's what people are buying. They're buying you and nobody does you David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Sarah Clay: better than you. So be yourself on the platform David Bancroft: Hmm. Sarah Clay: and don't overthink it. David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: My first video that I ever put out on LinkedIn, which was my I think my second ever post on LinkedIn, so a while ago, took David Bancroft: Hmm. Yeah. Sarah Clay: me all day to record it because I didn't know what I was doing and I didn't know where to stand and wish I you know, and I c it had to David Bancroft: Mm. Mm. Sarah Clay: be a one-taker because I didn't know how to edit in those days. And finally I published this video before I had to go and pick up the kids from school. And I felt physically sick. I was so David Bancroft: my god, really? Wow. Sarah Clay: Honestly, David. And I walked to school to get the kids at three o'clock, and I like, God, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? Of course, I got home, David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: went back to LinkedIn. Of course, LinkedIn hadn't blown up, hadn't kicked me off the platform, all was fine. And in fact, I'd had David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sarah Clay: a few people say, Well done, well done, you've done a great job posting your first video. And that's David Bancroft: Amazing. Sarah Clay: that I wish people would be more like you in that regard David Bancroft: Hmm. Sarah Clay: and just get on and do it. David Bancroft: Well, I think it takes time to get there because again, as I say, originally Sarah Clay: Hmm. David Bancroft: I did overthink it. And again, no one has the expectation that you're Spielberg, presumably, and actually the most critical person of any of your content is likely to be yourself. The people that I engage on LinkedIn just appreciate that, I say what's on my mind, it's not controversial. It's just matter of fact, this is what I'm thinking or this is what I'm looking for. This is looking at who I'm looking to engage with. I'm after a partner that might be able to help on a project, I'll just speak about LinkedIn. And it is just authentic. yeah, done is better and perfect. And I really, really uphold that throughout. I'm at a point now with my videos, given that it's one take, I don't even watch them back. just literally record them and post it. I just see what happens, but that's cool. So look, you spend your time helping people become visible on LinkedIn. Obviously that's what you said there. Yeah, obviously a lot of the people that presumably and your helping will feel uncomfortable talking about themselves. Sarah Clay: Mm. David Bancroft: Why do think that is and how can people show up? If that's, my daughter talks about people showing up. How can people show up more confidently without feeling like they're bragging or maybe putting on an act as some people might even feel? Sarah Clay: No, it's a really good question and I do see fear, that is the main prohibitor for anybody, whether they're the CEO, whether they're the intern, whether they're only managed business, whatever. People are frightened of LinkedIn. So I have a various interactive workshops that I run, but one of the things that I do in one in well mo in all my workshops is I get people to stand up and introduce themselves to the person next to them or somebody that they don't know. David Bancroft: Nice. Sarah Clay: And ask each other, ask the other one what do you do? David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: And I give them 30 seconds and then I make them shut up, which is quite hard because they're just waiting David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: like this, and then I get them to do it the other way around. I cannot shut David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: them up. It's really hard. And I I make everybody silent and I say, Right, now I want you to do that on LinkedIn. And they'll go, and they're frightened. David Bancroft: What? What? What if my neighbour sees it though? Sarah Clay: Exactly, but you're do it you do it in real life. Why don't you do it on LinkedIn? And that David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: for me is is the barrier that I help

people cross. to see that LinkedIn is and this is I know you're going to ask me at the end because you did tell me, for a a takeaway thing. David Bancroft: Mm-hmm. Yep. Sarah Clay: And I'm gonna give you it now and I will repeat it at the end because we all need to hear things at least five times before they actually sink in and go to our long term. David Bancroft: Let's compound it. Let's compound this thing. Sarah Clay: Yeah. It's treat LinkedIn as if it's a real life situation. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, that's strong. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Sarah Clay: If you're reading a post from somebody, that's just them talking. It's just them saying something. So if you want David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: to comment on that post, if you were standing in a room with that person, what would you say? That's what David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes. Sarah Clay: you write in your comment. That's it. And David Bancroft: Yeah. Yeah. Sarah Clay: really, it doesn't have to be much harder than that. David Bancroft: yet people over-engineer it and make it look far harder than they should do. Sarah Clay: Mm, I do. David Bancroft: I remember hearing Stephen Bartlett, obviously a competitor on the pod scene for me, you know, we're vying for that top spot at the moment. You can imagine, but I remember Stephen Bartlett and I've heard it from lots of other places and I think he borrowed it anyway, but embarrassment is the cost of entry to success and... I think that again, that aligns with what you're saying there, doesn't it? You know, put saying out there, yeah, people might say, it's embarrassing or whatever, but yeah, you've got to be out there. And if you're authentic and if it's yourself, people will in turn buy into you. And actually, again, I'm probably at the point of my life where I don't care if everyone likes me in fairness. I just care that enough people like me to get me to where I need to be. And that's not from a perspective of being polarizing or controversial, it's just I know not everyone is for everybody. So, just let people make that decision and authenticity will hopefully get you there, I would have thought, Sarah Clay: Absolutely, and not everybody will like you. And I've had meetings with marketing managers and you know, who said to me, I think you're great and I would love to hire you, but I don't think you're right for the team. I don't think they're gonna like David Bancroft: Mm-mm. Sarah Clay: your the way that you you approach things, you know, 'cause I'm quite upbeat and you know, w I try to make things fun and interesting. And that, you know, that I was told I was too much, you know, too fun, too, you know, made a bit more of light too light hearted and I was like, Well You should see me on a actually on my trainings. That's no nonsense goes on here, I can tell you. But, David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: you know, it's fine. And I could I have actually said to somebody, Well, if you're looking for somebody who's much straighter and has a very different approach to me, try this person who is, you know, and I may recommend them somebody who's a competitor David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: because it's a different approach. David Bancroft: they're a little more rigid. Sarah Clay: Yeah, yeah. I mean, obviously they're making a mistake, but David Bancroft: Interesting. Well, obviously, sorry. Sorry, I was meant to Sarah Clay: The point. David Bancroft: say that. Sorry, I meant to say that. So you beat me to it. All right, segue. Cycling. Tell me about that. Sarah Clay: Yes. okay. So I have always been into fitness and exercise and everything like that. And two and a half years ago, so it was twenty twenty five actually. Two one and a half years ago, if that probably write. David Bancroft: Mm. Mm-mm. Sarah Clay: I met a guy called John Redman, who runs a company called Ask Bosco, SEO website agency. And he was running a world cycle ride, or is running a world cycle ride from London to Sydney over a twenty-five year period. And he was looking for people to join them to cycle across the Alps in three months' time. So this was June and they were going in September. So I said, Yeah, I'll join. I'll do that. David Bancroft: Yep. Sarah Clay: He said, Great. How much cycling have you done? Well, I haven't done any. Do you a bike? No, I don't. Well, you better get shopping and you better get training. I'll see you in September, he said. So I did. And it was honestly, it's completely changed my life. As anybody, or most people who start cycling, it does just take over your life and it's crazy. But I was looking for something, something that David Bancroft: Hmm. Sarah Clay: I some that I could be passionate about, some kind of exercise to be outdoors. And David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: It's changed my life in many, many ways in terms of socially all the people, amazing people I've met, the places I've been and the things I've done. But what I've found about cycling is it's been so good for what's going on in my brain. And it's just been phenomenal to have that space. David Bancroft: Yes. Yeah. And so, obviously having a challenge is always a motivator. It's a focal point, isn't it? If you know I'm about to do a leg on the Alps, yeah, you need to get yourself in a saddle pretty regularly to know that you're Sarah Clay: Yeah. David Bancroft: not going to fail on the first incline. But I think you learn a lot about yourself along the way, don't you? Sarah Clay: Yeah. Yes you do. because you're putting yourself in a really uncomfortable, literally uncomfortable in that saddle for nine hours at a time. David Bancroft: you Sarah Clay: you know, you're putting you you're challenging yourself, you're doing hard things. And but what's great about this particular group of people is we're doing it together. And I think that's a lot of cycling. You people do it in groups. And David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: doing something hard with other people is such a bonding experience. And we're

all from David Bancroft: Yeah. Yes. Sarah Clay: different walks of life, we're all different ages and genders and all of that and sizes and shapes and levels of fitness. David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: But we're all doing the same thing. And we get to the end. Some get there much quicker than me, some get there a bit slower than me. but we all get there and it's hard for all of us. And David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: the but also the confidence that comes from achieving a challenge over and over again is is Incredible, really incredible. David Bancroft: Again, regular listeners would know my passion is martial arts and we have anything exactly the same, different people, different genders, different ages, know, kids right up to, you know, people now that have retired and, you know, all sorts of different standards, levels. And it's, yeah, it's very rewarding. There's always something you're working towards, whatever that might be. The journey doesn't stop at black belt And it is a bonding experience, know, sharing the mat or the tatami with the people that you're trained with is undoubtedly bonding. And clearly it's the same for you in the cycling community, because you have that common thread, you have that common interest, but you've all got your own challenges relative to that, don't you? yeah, I can imagine that. And who would have thought? no bike, no time in the saddle, suddenly, yeah, let's do it. And again, as you said earlier in the pod, perhaps nothing by design, these things just happen. And then you lean into it. Sarah Clay: Yeah, absolutely no, I I absolutely 'cause I did have this crazy dream that I wanted to cycle across the Alps, having never cycled and not had having a bike. And yes, this was David Bancroft: Was that before? Sorry, Sarah, was that before? Sarah Clay: before. So there were lots of things that led up to me thinking that's what I want to do. I want to cycle across the Alps, but I'll probably never do it 'cause I'm too old, I don't know what to do, I don't have a bike, I don't know really. And literally David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: a few days later I'm sitting in front of John Redman and he's a he's inviting me to do it. And the other thing that's amazing about Ride 25, which is this group, and I really do want to give them a plug because it is the most phenomenal group, and we're all business founders. And what Ride 25 is doing is raising the most ridiculous amount of money for two incredible charities in Africa. And I'm learning about these charities. I may well go out and visit one of them or both of them at some point. David Bancroft: Amazing. Sarah Clay: And it it is it's truly incredible what we're able and what we see happening within these charities. David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: girls are going to school when they weren't, the girls are joining joining the cycle, you know, Kenyan cycle team and all of these amazing things that we're David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: helping happen because the money we're raising. David Bancroft: Let's go for it. Let's go for it. You haven't had one for a while, so that tops you up again. Ride Sarah Clay: Thank you. David Bancroft: 25, I'll put them in the show notes along with quite a Sarah Clay: Please do. David Bancroft: few other things. The show notes are gonna be like in encyclopedia at this rate, but yeah, they deserve props, don't they? That sounds like an amazing. exactly. Sarah Clay: Welcome to my world. David Bancroft: No, that sounds awesome. That sounds like a great initiative. And I actually look forward to it, because I haven't before now. I look forward to reading about it and learning some more about that. So LinkedIn, for better or worse, It's a platform that lots of people use. I think in my opinion, and again, I'm just from the outside, I'm a user. I don't profess to be any kind of expert or authority on this, but I think the vast majority of network dabble in LinkedIn, but very few people actually bake it into their strategy. Very few people own it in the same way as they might have previously dedicated themselves to something else, which they might consider a channel. What's the future for LinkedIn? Because as I say, and I hear all sorts of stats, I've been to LinkedIn offices in London number of times, I've been to talks there, I've had events there and all sorts, but X amount of percent of people generate content, X amount of people upload a video, are that active post-summit? What's the future for LinkedIn do you think? Sarah Clay: Ooh, tricky one. So LinkedIn, yes, there are lots of people who dabble. People complain that they get rubbish in their feed and it's you know, it's not the platform it used to be, etc., etc.. Well, of course it isn't because there are so many more people on it at the moment than there ever have been. So David Bancroft: Yeah, Sarah Clay: you're gonna get more content, you're gonna get content that's not aligned to you, and you know, and despite however hard you try, the algorithm Can do its best and work out what sort of stuff it you want to see in your feed, but David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: it still may get it wrong occasionally. And David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah. Sarah Clay: the more you're on LinkedIn, the more you're engaging on LinkedIn, the more times you're telling the algorithm what you want. So David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: I always say to people, if you really hate the content in your feed, then use Link get on LinkedIn and use it David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: in a way that you want to use it, and the algorithm will see what David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: you're doing, and you'll get the content that you want in your feed. That's David Bancroft: So I don't know if it's moved Sarah Clay: Yes, yeah. David Bancroft: on past this Sarah, but I was aware of something called the 360 Brew algorithm on LinkedIn. that still the AI driven? Yeah. Sarah Clay: Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still that is still the Yeah. So yeah, and it is exactly

that. So what LinkedIn is doing is looking at everything you do on LinkedIn. So it's looking at your profile, it's looking at well, it's not looking at your DMs, that's one thing it isn't looking at, but it's looking at your content, it's looking at your comments on other people's posts, how often you're there, etc. etcetera. So you've got to talk to it, you've got to help the algorithm choose what it sends you because there's so much stuff there. So yeah. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, that's a good, that's a point. And similarly, I've heard with that, the change of algorithm, and I actually noticed it almost overnight when that algorithm was changed and when it went live. And I actually, I actually quite like it now. But I think it's because I am active enough to follow, unfollow. I'm active enough to, I think because I'm using it enough. Yeah, it knows me. It knows what appeals to me. And I hope that similarly in turn it understands the sort of people that might be engaged by my content. I know that one issue initially was I'm a recruitment professional. So it appeared that when that 360 Brew thing took over, my posts were predominantly going to the recruitment industry, which is a disaster for me because why the hell do I want them looking at what I'm doing? Yeah. Sarah Clay: Yeah. Yeah. So David Bancroft: But I'll show myself as a recruiter, my content was going to recruitment. It makes sense, but at the same time, that's not what it's all about. But now I would say my... content seems to reach the technical and the sales professionals that I would generally look to recruit for. So it's doing the job, it's finding its way into right feeds and eyeballs and whatnot. But is that something you've heard of before where it will align with your industry and as such, I mean, again, yourself, LinkedIn guru, that's what I'm calling you. If your feed just sits in front of all of those guys, in essence, your competitors. That's not really the audience you're trying to activate, is it? Sarah Clay: No, that's your echo chamber, isn't it? And you you don't want that. So you've got to go and talk to people. So y you know, looking at my whole thing about LinkedIn is a is the biggest networking party in the world. Would you s just stand in the corner at the networking party by the coffee machine and not speak to anybody? No. Would you stand in the corner and just shout at people how brilliant you are and what your company is doing, which is what we do when we're posting? Yes, we do that and we'll talk to people about what we're doing. But we have to listen. David Bancroft: Yeah. Sarah Clay: We have to respond. We have to engage in other people's conversations to tell David Bancroft: Yes. Sarah Clay: well for obviously for our own successes and and that's what that's why we should be using LinkedIn. But until we're doing that, how on earth can anybody, how on earth can any algorithm know why we're there and what we're doing? So David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: go

and engage with other people's conversations because that way you're putting yourself in front of their audience David Bancroft: Mmm. Sarah Clay: by showing up in their post. And that's what the success is on LinkedIn. That and the DMs, of course. So using LinkedIn to build those personal one on one relationships with relevant people using the David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: DMs in a non salesy, non spammy way, but in a conversational way, that's how you get your success on LinkedIn. David Bancroft: Nice, yeah. Your engagement leaves clues, doesn't it? Sarah Clay: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely it does. And the more people realise that, the better time they'll have. David Bancroft: wish I'd prepared this next part of the pod, but I haven't. So I'm going to do this off the of my head. Myths, LinkedIn myths, because we all hear them. Do you have to post every day of the week to be successful on LinkedIn? Sarah Clay: No you don't. In fact that's probably too much now anyway, and LinkedIn doesn't really want that. David Bancroft: Interesting. Are videos the content that travel and end up in more timelines than other forms of content? Polls, text-based, document shares. Sarah Clay: So linked in videos actually get less reach, but what happens with the video is those people that see it buy David Bancroft: Mm. Sarah Clay: into you much more deeply because they see you, see your character, hear your voice, and it's a much closer way to connect. So they get sent to a smaller audience, but it's a better quality connection. David Bancroft: Do you have to pay to get the most out of LinkedIn? Sarah Clay: No. No you don't. There's lots of ways that you can use LinkedIn on the free just free programme. David Bancroft: Is making text bold on LinkedIn cool or is that... Sarah Clay: no, don't do that. I sounded like my mother. no, don't do that. And and the same also with formatting text. Some people use text add-ons, you know, they'll copy and paste unibond and or unicode. Not unibond, that's a glue, isn't it? Unicode. stick it built as glue. David Bancroft: That's a bit of a sticky situation there, yeah. Sarah Clay: so using Unicode and things like that, the algorithm can't read those things. So don't don't do those. Just use normal normal. David Bancroft: So there's no emphasis to the algorithm. The user might appreciate it or the viewer might engage with it more, but the algorithm doesn't sense. Sarah Clay: Yeah, no, exactly. But then again, we're not only doing things for the algorithm, of course, because that's not what we're about. But David Bancroft: No. Sarah Clay: using I do advise to space your text out, so not loads of nodes, but put a put a space in between your paragraphs. So it's not a huge block of text that nobody will want to read. David Bancroft: Yep. Are you a fan of the hook, i.e. that one liner with the dot dot dot and then people put about five spaces after it? Sarah Clay: No. No, and in fact LinkedIn isn't either. And there was a time and David Bancroft: Interesting. Sarah Clay: it may still be happening that LinkedIn was actually downgrading posts for doing that. David Bancroft: So it almost like that click bait. Emojis are cool. Sarah Clay: Yeah, no, don't do that. And and it's and it's annoying for the reader and actually it's the reader we should be thinking of more above the algorithm, definitely. And if somebody's David Bancroft: Of course. Yeah. Sarah Clay: if it looks like you've written something really clickbaity or a really clickbaity top line, nobody's gonna engage David Bancroft: Mm, mm, yeah. Sarah Clay: with it. David Bancroft: I'm with you on that. Are emojis cool on LinkedIn? Sarah Clay: I think emojis are right in the for the right people and in the right places. I work with clients who say, David Bancroft: Yeah, nice. Sarah Clay: I'm ever never ever i using even David Bancroft: Ha Sarah Clay: a black dot. I'm going, Well don't do that then. Let's not do it. It's not your brand. You don't feel comfortable, let's not do that. David Bancroft: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I make heavy use of emojis, so I'm glad you said that. you've cleared a few things up in my mind. As you can see, I think about LinkedIn a fair bit. And I like your visceral reaction to some of the ideas. No, what are you? Sarah Clay: No, I'm n I'm not very good at hiding. I'm I'm not very good at poker, David, I have to say. As you can probably tell. David Bancroft: Yeah, no, no, that's it. So that runs us off probably, and I know you've already teased it, but I'd love it to be in a slightly more formal format of our Golden Nugget. So Sarah, if you wouldn't mind, if you can just leave us with your one thought, lesson or piece of advice that you'd like to leave our listeners with. I give you one final sound effect. Sarah Clay: Okay, so my final piece of advice is when you're on LinkedIn, treat your communications on LinkedIn in the same way as the communications you treat in real life. David Bancroft: Simple but effective. Let's do it. I love that. Yeah, I think that's brilliant. You know, I'm a fan of that. And yeah, although we've never spoken about it very clearly that aligns exactly as I'd be thinking. I'm glad you said that's a great golden nugget. And Sarah, a great episode. I really appreciate your time. I hope that it's been of value to our audience. Any questions? bounce them into the comments and I'm sure you'll pick them up. But yeah, for now, really appreciate your time. Thank you for that. Sarah Clay: Thank you very much and thank you for the applause in the drum rolls. Thank you. David Bancroft: So there you go guys, another engaging episode. And I love talking LinkedIn. I speak about it often. I speak about it with my clients, speak about it with my job seekers. Obviously there's a lot of questions that come my way. You should I be engaging with LinkedIn as a job seeker? You know, if I like a business's post, is that gonna be detrimental to my job? you know, I get lots of questions and queries about LinkedIn, but at the heart of it and the reality is, Engagement is positive. Networking is positive. If you put yourself out there, you're more likely to receive opportunities than if you're sat quietly in a corner somewhere. So much the same as Sarah said with networking, make it loud, make it proud, be unapologetically authentic. And yeah, there's hope this, this platform will reward you in a way that I know it certainly has for me. I'm going to give Sarah not as she knows, cause she's no longer camera. Give her a last little clap. Tiny little, I can't stop on clapping. Tiny little clap, because I like that. And as I say, until next time guys, appreciate you listening. Onto next one.