התמלול המלא של Be Uncomfortable Figuring It Out, with Joseph Martin

school and I was working 79 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:42.360 and I was serving in the reserves and the Marine Corps. 80 00:03:43.129 --> 00:03:46.900 And then applying for scholarships, I ended up learning Arabic 81 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:49.560 and traveling to the Middle East. And then when I 82 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:51.919 was there learning Arabic, it wasn't enough. So I joined 83 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.740 other nonprofits locally doing different types of development work. And 84 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:57.740 I just always thought it was interesting to do multiple 85 00:03:57.780 --> 00:04:01.650 things simultaneously and try to execute them fairly well. And 86 00:04:01.710 --> 00:04:04.990 so I think just kind of always organizing people, organizing 87 00:04:05.050 --> 00:04:08.870 myself around ideas and trying to do interesting things has 88 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:10.449 just always been a part of who I am. 89 00:04:12.189 --> 00:04:19.459 OK. that's interesting because most advice is about focus in 90 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:24.300 one area. And clearly you're completely ignoring that advice. 91 00:04:24.939 --> 00:04:25.279 Yeah. 92 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:30.199 Which is, which is awesome. I love that. Um, because 93 00:04:30.220 --> 00:04:34.089 I have this hypothesis that if you have competency in 94 00:04:34.129 --> 00:04:38.370 multiple different areas, um, you see patterns differently. 95 00:04:39.449 --> 00:04:40.449 Yeah, I think that's true. 96 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:41.050 Yeah. 97 00:04:41.850 --> 00:04:47.379 Yeah. Um, But I do think that when you're starting 98 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:51.529 a company, I think it's important to focus on that 99 00:04:51.769 --> 00:04:55.970 one company. And some entrepreneurs try to do 10 companies simultaneously, 100 00:04:56.170 --> 00:04:59.170 and then their focus gets diluted. I think if you 101 00:04:59.189 --> 00:05:02.509 have a big enough idea and you're focused on one thing, 102 00:05:03.009 --> 00:05:07.060 you have to be able to be really good cross-dimensionally. 103 00:05:08.310 --> 00:05:08.569 Right. 104 00:05:08.649 --> 00:05:10.370 And so you have to be good at marketing and 105 00:05:10.389 --> 00:05:11.750 you have to be able to lead that. And you 106 00:05:11.769 --> 00:05:13.790 got to figure out legal and you got to work 107 00:05:13.870 --> 00:05:16.209 on finance and then you have to work on product. 108 00:05:16.670 --> 00:05:19.319 And so there's enough things where you're working on multiple 109 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.199 disciplines and have to be able to execute or lead 110 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:25.620 other people. And and so it's a good skill to 111 00:05:25.660 --> 00:05:29.579 have within one company. I don't think trying to launch 112 00:05:29.579 --> 00:05:32.939 10 or manage 10. A lot of entrepreneurs are not 113 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.029 successful at that. So you see that advice. They're like, 114 00:05:35.069 --> 00:05:37.579 focus on one thing.

But I don't think it's like 115 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.959 one discipline. It's just like one area, right, that can 116 00:05:40.980 --> 00:05:44.759 have multiple verticals and disciplines that you have to master. 117 00:05:44.810 --> 00:05:50.670 Yeah, that totally makes sense. Because, I mean, even in 118 00:05:50.689 --> 00:05:52.389 software engineering, you know, you have to be able to 119 00:05:52.430 --> 00:06:01.620 understand enough about servers and databases and business logic layers 120 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:05.220 and what's the display layer and user experience and. 121 00:06:06.019 --> 00:06:08.019 Yeah, to be good across multiple disciplines. 122 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:15.670 Yeah, so you're really never, like, super narrow silo. So 123 00:06:15.699 --> 00:06:22.569 that's a really interesting, like, story. What made you... Like, 124 00:06:22.629 --> 00:06:26.329 I'm really curious. What made you think about doing the first... 125 00:06:27.750 --> 00:06:31.910 the first nonprofit, the first 501c3? I think. 126 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:34.850 What happened? I was. 127 00:06:36.670 --> 00:06:39.329 I had served like a mission for my church for 128 00:06:39.370 --> 00:06:42.709 two years in South Africa. And I was just interested 129 00:06:42.740 --> 00:06:46.839 in the world and people and languages. And yeah, the 130 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:51.000 world is an interesting place to me. So when I 131 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:55.319 started my undergraduate work, I was always drawn towards international affairs. 132 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:57.519 But I was like, I need a practical application for 133 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:01.079 this degree. And is it going to be international business 134 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:02.740 or am I going to try to go into international 135 00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:06.000 law or like what practical aspect of this is not 136 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:08.339 enough to get a generalized degree like that and then 137 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:10.779 expect to get a job when you graduate. So it's 138 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.620 always looking for practical applications of that. And I got 139 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.269 involved with like these model you in different types of 140 00:07:16.310 --> 00:07:18.550 groups that were trying to. I was just trying to 141 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:20.970 get exposure to different things to figure out where I 142 00:07:20.990 --> 00:07:23.500 wanted to focus. And I just met a group of 143 00:07:23.509 --> 00:07:27.019 people and they were like, hey, it would be really interesting. 144 00:07:27.660 --> 00:07:29.779 One of them had lived in another part of Africa 145 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:31.399 to where I lived in. I was in South Africa 146 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:33.240 and he was in like Sierra Leone or something like that. 147 00:07:33.259 --> 00:07:35.060 And he was like, hey, there's a lot of development 148 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:37.029 work and have some connections over there. And these people 149 00:07:37.050 --> 00:07:38.810 are trying to start businesses. And it was the beginning 150 00:07:38.829 --> 00:07:41.209 of microfinance. And that became like a really big deal. 151 00:07:41.939 --> 00:07:43.649 And it was the very beginnings of that. And he 152 00:07:43.670 --> 00:07:45.970 was like, I heard about this thing called microfinance and 153 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:47.949 we can do this. We can support these local businesses. 154 00:07:47.970 --> 00:07:49.939 And I thought it was just a really interesting thing 155 00:07:49.949 --> 00:07:53.060 to get involved with. So I helped them apply. We 156 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:56.689 pulled a group together and And I helped them apply 157 00:07:56.920 --> 00:07:59.319 for 501c3. I didn't know what it was. None of us. 158 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.360 They were just kind of exploring and figuring it out. 159 00:08:01.779 --> 00:08:04.459 And we did the application and it all kind of 160 00:08:04.500 --> 00:08:08.300 worked out. And then the Clinton Foundation launched a scholarship program. 161 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:10.420 We're like, hey, that'd be really cool. They're like grants 162 00:08:10.459 --> 00:08:13.439 for people doing international affairs. And they're targeting people like 163 00:08:13.459 --> 00:08:16.939 college kids doing these types of projects. And I think 164 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:19.360 it was funded by Walmart or something, the scholarship program. 165 00:08:19.379 --> 00:08:21.660 And so we applied and got it. And then we 166 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:23.759 were like, okay, well let's do this thing. And so 167 00:08:23.779 --> 00:08:27.910 we started organizing events, like little fun runs around town 168 00:08:27.970 --> 00:08:31.149 and raising small amounts of money and different types of fundraisers. 169 00:08:31.709 --> 00:08:34.690 And then we were, we were, uh, yeah, just exploring, uh, 170 00:08:34.769 --> 00:08:38.179 the idea of supporting a lot of like women would 171 00:08:38.220 --> 00:08:41.080 have companies that they would launch, like they would make 172 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:43.019 goods and they would want to sell those goods. And 173 00:08:43.059 --> 00:08:44.740 if they got a micro loan, they can make more 174 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:46.679 goods and sell more goods to help fund their kids 175 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.700 going to school or whatever. And so we just got 176 00:08:49.740 --> 00:08:52.440 in on that early. And then the Garmin bank was 177 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.450 like one of the first big ones. And it was 178 00:08:55.470 --> 00:08:57.610 like Muhammad Units. And he started it and he got 179 00:08:57.649 --> 00:08:59.830 a Nobel Peace Prize thing. And that was like the 180 00:08:59.870 --> 00:09:01.500 beginning of that. It's like right when he was getting 181 00:09:01.509 --> 00:09:03.620 the Nobel Peace Prize and stuff. And I read his 182 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:05.059 book and really got into it. I

was like, this 183 00:09:05.100 --> 00:09:07.700 is really interesting. And I met him through an event 184 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:10.840 that he came and spoke at. And it was just 185 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.259 an interesting time. And so it was just, you know, 186 00:09:13.299 --> 00:09:15.269 like anything. It's just kind of like you meet a 187 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:17.210 group of people and they have an idea. And then 188 00:09:17.230 --> 00:09:19.210 you kind of like one step after another just kind 189 00:09:19.250 --> 00:09:20.929 of builds. And we had a lot of fun with 190 00:09:20.990 --> 00:09:21.669 it while we were in school. 191 00:09:23.149 --> 00:09:26.980 That is an awesome story. So what's awesome about that 192 00:09:27.029 --> 00:09:31.059 is that it wasn't just the idea, but you took 193 00:09:31.179 --> 00:09:34.679 very deliberate action to not just go, oh, this is 194 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:37.059 a good idea, but actually bring it to fruition. 195 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:39.700 Yeah, I thought it was really cool. And there's a 196 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:45.679 guy that I became really good friends with. And he 197 00:09:45.730 --> 00:09:48.730 really took the bull by the horns after I graduated 198 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:50.690 and was moving on. And he kept it alive and 199 00:09:51.190 --> 00:09:53.899 kept building it. Awesome. He did some really cool stuff. 200 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:56.370 He was a journalist and he just really loved international 201 00:09:56.389 --> 00:09:58.950 affairs and things like that. So it was an interesting 202 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:01.830 time i like. 203 00:10:01.669 --> 00:10:06.940 That so you mentioned you've done another another 501c3 also. 204 00:10:08.299 --> 00:10:11.639 Um no i didn't do a second one i think 205 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:13.580 i was involved with some others like when i was 206 00:10:13.620 --> 00:10:16.720 in egypt there's some it wasn't a 501c3 it was 207 00:10:16.779 --> 00:10:19.549 egyptian but there were nonprofits when I was there. And 208 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:21.909 so for me, just doing a, if I was in 209 00:10:21.950 --> 00:10:25.009 school studying Arabic, like I was in Egypt and pursuing 210 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:29.370 my undergrad and then my master's degree, I just always 211 00:10:29.409 --> 00:10:31.549 wanted to be involved with the community and different kinds 212 00:10:31.610 --> 00:10:34.809 of events and always keep my eyes open to different 213 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:38.580 types of career paths and gaining practical experience. So I 214 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:42.500 usually didn't join just standard student clubs or just have 215 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:45.120 friends and go party or whatever. I was always looking 216 00:10:45.139 --> 00:10:46.519 for something that had a little bit more meat on 217 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.409 the bone. And so when I was in Egypt, there 218 00:10:49.750 --> 00:10:54.049 would be non-profits that would partner with student groups so 219 00:10:54.070 --> 00:10:56.909 you could get involved with real work because there was 220 00:10:56.929 --> 00:11:00.289 a lot of interesting needs in a country like Egypt. 221 00:11:01.070 --> 00:11:03.629 And so I got involved with some of those groups 222 00:11:03.730 --> 00:11:06.450 and we would go and like work with orphans and 223 00:11:06.549 --> 00:11:09.350 teach them different types of skills. We'd go to parks 224 00:11:09.389 --> 00:11:11.129 and play games with them and teach them different types 225 00:11:11.169 --> 00:11:13.690 of life skills and do different types of development work 226 00:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.279 and I just found it to be pretty interesting. It 227 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:18.899 helped me practice my Arabic, you know, helped me develop 228 00:11:18.940 --> 00:11:21.940 friendships and do something worthwhile when I was there. And 229 00:11:21.980 --> 00:11:26.440 just understand a little bit more about, like USAID was 230 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.289 very active in Egypt. And I met some people there 231 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:36.570 and I really started understanding international development and nonprofits and 232 00:11:36.590 --> 00:11:39.730 non-government organizations and kind of the whole world and how 233 00:11:39.769 --> 00:11:43.230 it kind of functioned. And I thought it was interesting, so. 234 00:11:44.789 --> 00:11:48.169 Fascinating. You may be the first person I've interviewed in 235 00:11:48.210 --> 00:11:51.029 this podcast that has that kind of a background. 236 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:55.899 Yeah, I have a little different kind of background for 237 00:11:55.940 --> 00:12:00.350 a business entrepreneur. But I see like the celebrity CEOs 238 00:12:00.409 --> 00:12:02.210 like the Steve Jobs of the world and stuff. And 239 00:12:02.309 --> 00:12:05.379 a lot of times like. they've done interesting things too, right? 240 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:08.120 Like they would, you always hear the story like, oh, 241 00:12:08.139 --> 00:12:11.389 they quit college and you're like, they didn't really, they 242 00:12:11.450 --> 00:12:14.169 kind of did, but they're interested in different disciplines and 243 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:18.190 they were exploring those things. Like Steve jobs famously, you know, 244 00:12:18.269 --> 00:12:20.009 wanted to learn how to, you know, it was like 245 00:12:20.210 --> 00:12:22.250 art and calligraphy and things like that, that he got 246 00:12:22.289 --> 00:12:25.110 really passionate about and travel and things like that. And 247 00:12:25.149 --> 00:12:28.129 so people were just always learning in their lifelong students. 248 00:12:28.220 --> 00:12:31.500 And I feel like that's like, that's how I am 249 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.169 like where, I really taken after that from a pretty 250 00:12:34.190 --> 00:12:37.279 young age where I was always wanting to learn new skills, 251 00:12:37.340 --> 00:12:39.639 new hobbies, get

involved in new things. And I don't 252 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:42.059 think that stopped. Like even like three or four years ago, 253 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.240 I moved to Arizona when I first started this company. 254 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:48.120 And I had I had some friends and they're really 255 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.750 into Latin dancing. And I was like, this is cool. 256 00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:53.250 This is something new. And so I got pretty good 257 00:12:53.269 --> 00:12:55.649 at salsa dancing, bachata and all that stuff with them. 258 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:58.539 And it's just it's just that humility to show up 259 00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:00.159 and be like, you know, I know nothing about this 260 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:01.700 and I'm kind of a fool trying to do it. 261 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.700 But it's fun to learn something new and and then 262 00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:08.320 and get good at it. And so that's just, you know, 263 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:10.350 it's just kind of a part of my personality that 264 00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:11.070 I've tried to develop. 265 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:15.789 OK, so that takes a huge amount of self-confidence, like 266 00:13:15.850 --> 00:13:18.710 behind the scenes. How did you develop that? 267 00:13:20.490 --> 00:13:23.389 I think it's like anything in one step at a time. like, 268 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:25.820 you know, like from a young age, like we talked 269 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:30.460 about a little bit, um, just like putting myself into these, uh, 270 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:35.080 new uncomfortable environments where I didn't know something. And then 271 00:13:35.259 --> 00:13:37.460 I would surround myself with people that were good at it. 272 00:13:37.659 --> 00:13:40.019 And then I would learn and humble myself and just 273 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:43.500 kind of learn and figure it out. And, um, and, 274 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.720 and whether that's like You know, 19 years old going 275 00:13:47.759 --> 00:13:50.600 to South Africa and trying to learn local languages and 276 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:52.679 serve people and kind of be a missionary and do 277 00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:56.240 that kind of stuff. Or if that's in Egypt, like 278 00:13:56.259 --> 00:13:59.100 we talked about these nonprofits and learning Arabic and being 279 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.840 in this unfamiliar environment. and trying to do some good 280 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.690 over there while I was there. Or if that is 281 00:14:06.129 --> 00:14:07.809 picking up a new hobby like dance or whatever. But 282 00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:11.070 even with my company, people look at me and they're like, 283 00:14:11.090 --> 00:14:12.980 how are you doing this? Even family members are like, 284 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:14.299 how are you doing this? How are you a tech 285 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.740 entrepreneur when you didn't study computer science traditionally? And I 286 00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:20.960 was

like, look, we grew up in a computer household. 287 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.570 My father was an executive of Compaq and NEC and stuff. 288 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:27.720 I grew up around computers. like a lot of people 289 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:29.419 did and I was exposed to it and I liked 290 00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:31.799 it and I figured out and learned it over time 291 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.549 and then little by little regulatory technology started making its 292 00:14:35.629 --> 00:14:39.029 way into my career and I was like this is 293 00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:42.169 the future really and so I started getting more involved 294 00:14:42.190 --> 00:14:44.370 so I started working at RegTech companies and I would 295 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:47.049 work in a capacity that suited my talents at the 296 00:14:47.090 --> 00:14:49.929 time but I was exposed to software engineering and I 297 00:14:49.950 --> 00:14:51.330 would hang out with them and it was just a 298 00:14:51.370 --> 00:14:53.980 new thing to learn and And then, you know, I 299 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.899 learned wireframing. I just took a $ 15 course on Udemy 300 00:14:58.259 --> 00:15:01.190 or Udemy, however you pronounce it. And I figured out 301 00:15:01.429 --> 00:15:03.769 at the time Adobe XD was the thing, I guess 302 00:15:03.789 --> 00:15:06.970 it was before Figma. And I was learning Adobe XD 303 00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:10.450 and I learned how to wireframe. So I was like, well, 304 00:15:10.470 --> 00:15:13.700 I can design my own stuff now. And I would 305 00:15:13.720 --> 00:15:15.860 experiment with it until I got pretty good at it. 306 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.039 And then it opened up a whole new world to 307 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.179 me where I was like, look, I'm a practitioner in 308 00:15:20.740 --> 00:15:25.049 my field now. And I'm skilled doing the work. And 309 00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:27.370 now I can dream up new ways of doing the 310 00:15:27.429 --> 00:15:30.370 work and better ways of doing work and express creativity 311 00:15:30.470 --> 00:15:33.070 and show engineers like this is what I want to 312 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:36.710 build and then learn the, you know, scrum and scrum 313 00:15:36.830 --> 00:15:40.250 and the whole agile methodology. And I was surrounded by 314 00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:42.929 good engineers that could kind of teach me. So then 315 00:15:42.950 --> 00:15:45.360 it was a lot easier when I started this company. 316 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.440 I'm talking a long time, but you hear these celebrity 317 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:52.039 entrepreneurs that have been successful, like Mark Zuckerberg, and he's like, 318 00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:55.350 Facebook wasn't the first company I started. He was like, 319 00:15:55.379 --> 00:16:00.049 I was starting projects, and I was experimenting with this 320 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:02.210 and experimenting with that and things like that. And then 321 00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:04.450 you just do it one step at a time. But 322 00:16:04.590 --> 00:16:07.340 I think it's very helpful if you have that personality 323 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:12.759 trait that you've developed. that is like exploratory and learning and, 324 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.500 and willing to master something and be uncomfortable while you're 325 00:16:16.539 --> 00:16:17.330 figuring it out. 326 00:16:19.529 --> 00:16:21.690 Okay. There's been like three different things you said that 327 00:16:21.730 --> 00:16:24.169 I'm like, that's gotta be the episode title. No, no, 328 00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:27.950 that's gotta be the episode. No, that's gotta be the episode. 329 00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:31.519 Like you just gotta be uncomfortable figuring it out. That's 330 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:32.399 the episode title. 331 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:34.779 Yeah, that's it. I think so. 332 00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:38.940 That's such a, Where'd you grow up? 333 00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:41.669 Kind of all over the place. I was born in 334 00:16:41.690 --> 00:16:44.759 Hawaii and moved around a lot. My father was in 335 00:16:44.779 --> 00:16:48.559 the Navy and then he was in electronics, like early days, 336 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.539 like hardware. And so we were up in like Vermont 337 00:16:51.620 --> 00:16:55.340 at IBM and then in Texas at HP and Compact 338 00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:58.409 and things like that. So I just grew up moving around. 339 00:16:58.429 --> 00:17:00.149 And then I didn't stop. I joined the Marine Corps 340 00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:01.909 and then I've always moved every two or three years 341 00:17:01.970 --> 00:17:03.330 of my life to different places. 342 00:17:04.349 --> 00:17:05.009 Are you an only child? 343 00:17:05.970 --> 00:17:07.490 No, I'm a middle child. Okay. 344 00:17:07.509 --> 00:17:11.009 Okay. Okay, so my dad's in the Air Force, and 345 00:17:11.230 --> 00:17:14.190 I was born in Texas. We lived in Hawaii for 346 00:17:14.210 --> 00:17:17.029 a bunch of years. But yeah, we moved every two years. 347 00:17:17.049 --> 00:17:20.319 Yeah, so you get it. 348 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.660 I totally get it, yeah. Okay, now I'm going to 349 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:27.880 have to do a whole series of podcasts of military brats. 350 00:17:28.940 --> 00:17:31.500 There you go. It's an interesting, like, some people don't 351 00:17:31.539 --> 00:17:34.089 like it. And, like, even siblings of mine, they didn't 352 00:17:34.109 --> 00:17:37.339 like it. Me, I think maybe now I think about it, 353 00:17:37.349 --> 00:17:39.529 I never really, until you said that, I haven't connected 354 00:17:39.549 --> 00:17:44.089 the dots. But I think this comfort of being uncomfortable 355 00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:46.660 and being in an environment was probably how I grew up, right? 356 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:49.720 You moved from Texas. We moved from Texas. And I 357 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:52.700 remember one of the more difficult moves, I thought was 358

00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:55.640 kind of fun, was Texas to Vermont. You go from 359 00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:58.250 this conservative red state to like one of the most 360 00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:01.829 liberal states in the nation. I go from an education 361 00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:04.029 system that's quite traditional. You show up and you get 362 00:18:04.069 --> 00:18:06.329 report cards and you're in a normal standard class with 363 00:18:06.329 --> 00:18:09.730 30 other people, peers. You go to Vermont and they 364 00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:14.380 organize schooling completely differently. They would test you by grade 365 00:18:14.539 --> 00:18:17.019 and then you would like be organized in these cohorts. 366 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:19.000 And then it was like reading time and everyone would 367 00:18:19.019 --> 00:18:21.799 go to their like class because you're on that certain level. 368 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.319 And then it was like math time and you'd like 369 00:18:23.380 --> 00:18:26.079 switch classes. you know teachers because you're on a different 370 00:18:26.099 --> 00:18:29.380 level and then instead of standard report cards they would 371 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:31.759 give you like these reports where they would just write 372 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.079 about how you did so you couldn't like hide your 373 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:36.539 parents would get paragraphs about how you did in each 374 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:39.880 class and it was just so different of an environment 375 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:43.589 and the attitudes and the culture and everything about it 376 00:18:43.700 --> 00:18:47.670 the snow the sports like skiing and the hobbies everything 377 00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:50.700 was just so different than texas it really put me 378 00:18:50.740 --> 00:18:53.160 at a young age in this uncomfortable position to be like, 379 00:18:53.220 --> 00:18:55.369 am I going to make friends? And am I going 380 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:58.869 to learn how to function in this new system and culture? 381 00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:00.970 And I thought it was kind of fun to learn 382 00:19:01.009 --> 00:19:04.529 that and figure that out. And so maybe it started 383 00:19:04.549 --> 00:19:06.609 even earlier that I never really connected those dots. It's 384 00:19:06.630 --> 00:19:09.250 just kind of life experience maybe. I don't know. Yeah. 385 00:19:09.470 --> 00:19:17.710 Because for me, I didn't connect those dots until I 386 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:22.880 was probably in my thirties because, because I was thinking 387 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:25.710 like somebody asked me like something about, you know, why, 388 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:30.549 why something that I was doing was easy for me. 389 00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:35.109 And my, my initial thing was, well, isn't it easy 390 00:19:35.150 --> 00:19:40.359 for everyone? And, and the answer was no. And then 391 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.519 I was like, Oh, well then how did I learn this? Right.

392 00:19:43.579 --> 00:19:48.380 And I realized, Oh, moving around all the time, was 393 00:19:48.509 --> 00:19:52.210 because we lived in seven places by the time I 394 00:19:52.250 --> 00:19:52.849 was 14. Wow. 395 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:56.750 That's a lot. Yeah. 396 00:19:57.130 --> 00:19:59.430 And and we went from so for us, it was 397 00:19:59.470 --> 00:20:04.329 weather like we went from we went from the Philippines. 398 00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:10.259 I know we went from Guam. Hot, stormy. to northern 399 00:20:10.299 --> 00:20:14.789 Maine freezing cold whole different set of clothes to wear. 400 00:20:14.589 --> 00:20:16.450 Yeah absolutely different and then we. 401 00:20:16.349 --> 00:20:22.769 Went to Chicago and then we went to Hawaii and 402 00:20:22.809 --> 00:20:26.569 then we went to northern Michigan again freezing cold and 403 00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:29.289 snow and then we went to the Philippines and in 404 00:20:29.329 --> 00:20:32.130 there there was other you know short stops in Washington 405 00:20:32.170 --> 00:20:37.329 and can't remember where else but I was in DOD 406 00:20:37.349 --> 00:20:40.630 schools the whole time most almost all of it Wow. 407 00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:43.390 And so DOD schools are very, like, you're talking about 408 00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:46.349 the report card, they're very traditionally structured. 409 00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:47.490 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 410 00:20:48.049 --> 00:20:49.849 Yeah, so that was, you know, I was like that, 411 00:20:50.410 --> 00:20:55.230 and when I finally got to a civilian school, I 412 00:20:55.269 --> 00:20:55.849 was in high school. 413 00:20:57.390 --> 00:20:58.150 It's very different. 414 00:20:58.609 --> 00:20:59.940 Yeah, it was very, you know, and I was like, oh, 415 00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:05.730 this is, you know, interesting. So, yeah, that's, yeah, I 416 00:21:05.779 --> 00:21:07.190 might have to do a whole series, I might have to, like, 417 00:21:07.569 --> 00:21:09.029 hunt for people now that that. 418 00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:12.759 Grew up like that and see what they've done. 419 00:21:12.579 --> 00:21:17.119 Yeah well and also it's it's what are the the 420 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:21.200 behaviors they take for granted that are actually unusual so 421 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:26.049 um there's a book called scout mindset um that talks 422 00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:29.750 about how there's a subset of the population that's way 423 00:21:29.769 --> 00:21:36.019 more driven by um curiosity and learning than safety and 424 00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:40.839 certainty And the stuff that you're talking about definitely falls 425 00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:43.220 into that archetype. 426 00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:44.759 Yeah. 427 00:21:45.539 --> 00:21:51.589 Because to be voluntarily uncomfortable is not a safety-focused kind 428 00:21:51.630 --> 00:21:52.150 of behavior. 429 00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:53.829 Sure, absolutely. 430 00:21:54.210 --> 00:22:03.529 Yeah, so that's interesting. Sorry, my brain's bouncing back and forth. 431 00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:04.809 It's totally pinballing right now. 432 00:22:05.490 --> 00:22:05.589 Yeah. 433 00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:11.869 When you started thinking about starting your own company and 434 00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:16.690 the work that you're doing now, like what was the, 435 00:22:18.369 --> 00:22:20.410 was this something you thought about like when you were 20, 436 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:23.740 that you'd start a company someday? Or was it kind 437 00:22:23.779 --> 00:22:25.440 of later on that it just, you were like, oh, 438 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:27.259 I could go start a company. Like how'd that play out? 439 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.940 Yeah, I think I was always entrepreneurial, but I never 440 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:34.400 admitted it to myself. I always saw like my like 441 00:22:34.460 --> 00:22:37.880 growing up family members. I have an uncle who was 442 00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:41.220 in NASA. And so and he was, you know, did 443 00:22:41.269 --> 00:22:43.269 the whole rocket science thing. 444 00:22:43.309 --> 00:22:43.549 Right. 445 00:22:43.630 --> 00:22:45.809 The whole the whole NASA thing is a NASA engineer. 446 00:22:45.829 --> 00:22:48.730 So it's very stable environment. Like, you know, it was 447 00:22:48.750 --> 00:22:52.230 like a challenging environment, a stable environment. My father was 448 00:22:52.650 --> 00:22:57.319 an executive engineer. And in tech on the hardware side. 449 00:22:57.420 --> 00:22:59.450 And so it's like these stable environments where you go to, 450 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:02.680 you know, you work for the global company and you 451 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:05.509 had a certain status and it's a stable environment. So 452 00:23:05.529 --> 00:23:07.930 I always saw that for myself. I was like, I'll 453 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:09.690 go to college. I'll figure out what I want to do. 454 00:23:10.410 --> 00:23:12.490 And then I'm going to join some organization that's bigger 455 00:23:12.509 --> 00:23:15.569 than myself and I'll contribute in a meaningful way. And 456 00:23:15.609 --> 00:23:19.039 that's what I always thought. And I was like, starting 457 00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:21.900 a company would be really risky and there's a high 458 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:23.440 chance of failure and all this other stuff. So I 459 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:26.119 never really thought of it. But while I was making 460 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.279 my way through my journey, I was always starting things. 461 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:30.180 Like we talked about, you have these nonprofits and these 462 00:23:30.220 --> 00:23:34.529 other experiences. But there's also companies. At one point, I 463 00:23:35.269 --> 00:23:37.950 was managing a professional window cleaning company while I was 464 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:40.569 going to college. And I was like, just for money. 465 00:23:40.930 --> 00:23:43.259 And I was in the reserves in the military.

And 466 00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.859 then I was like, doing this thing for money, and 467 00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:48.900 I was going to school. And so I was always 468 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:53.049 kind of doing these multiple things. And then that company 469 00:23:54.269 --> 00:23:58.690 wanted me to be full-time, quit school, manage a region 470 00:23:58.710 --> 00:24:00.049 of the country. And I was like, well, I'm not 471 00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:02.250 going to get off the train here. I'm going to 472 00:24:02.329 --> 00:24:04.009 continue to go to school because I have this other 473 00:24:04.049 --> 00:24:07.319 type of ambition. And when that happened, I was like, 474 00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:10.720 why don't I just start a construction cleanup company? And 475 00:24:10.779 --> 00:24:12.869 so like it was a house flipping time and it 476 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:14.410 was a height of that. And I was like, if 477 00:24:14.430 --> 00:24:17.109 these houses were like a little cleaner, And I just 478 00:24:17.190 --> 00:24:19.069 picked up the wood scraps every day and got a 479 00:24:19.109 --> 00:24:21.269 shop vac and vacuumed them up. They could sell them 480 00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:23.710 faster while they were flipping them and doing them. And 481 00:24:24.150 --> 00:24:25.650 it worked out pretty good. They would pay me a 482 00:24:25.690 --> 00:24:28.009 good chunk of money. And I would only work an 483 00:24:28.049 --> 00:24:30.279 hour or two. And I'd go clean up the house 484 00:24:30.380 --> 00:24:32.180 once every few days or so and keep it all 485 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:35.299 clean after the construction crews. And I had fun doing 486 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:38.960 that while I was in college. And then I had ideas. 487 00:24:38.980 --> 00:24:41.799 I was like, I'll subcontract this. I'll get people to 488 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:43.880 do this for me. And then I'll build it out. 489 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.539 But then it started taking me again away from my 490 00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:49.009 other trajectories like school and all this other stuff. So 491 00:24:49.069 --> 00:24:50.869 I was like, I better peel that back and then 492 00:24:50.910 --> 00:24:53.450 like refocus, you know, on these other things. And so 493 00:24:53.470 --> 00:24:57.630 I was always like juggling things and and organizing stuff 494 00:24:57.690 --> 00:25:00.039 and companies and things like that. So people saw that 495 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.140 in me. They're like, he's very entrepreneurial and stuff, but 496 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:06.240 I didn't really see it in myself. And so whenever 497 00:25:06.339 --> 00:25:08.559 I'd work for big companies, I would get frustrated because. 498 00:25:09.329 --> 00:25:12.089 Very frustrated because I'm like, things aren't working very efficiently. 499 00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:14.589 We could do this like 20 times better because I 500 00:25:14.609 --> 00:25:17.970 was always thinking creatively and about different approaches to things. 501 00:25:18.410 --> 00:25:20.789 So I was always like kind of a disgruntled employee, 502 00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:22.710 I guess you would say, where I was like doing 503 00:25:22.730 --> 00:25:24.920 the job. But I was like, we could take this 504 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.039 thing like 10 times faster and better and things like that. 505 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:31.809 So I always had a bit of a chip on 506 00:25:31.829 --> 00:25:35.970 my shoulder. And then I got into regulatory technology. I 507 00:25:35.990 --> 00:25:39.160 was doing anti-money laundering was my trade. That's what I 508 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.339 got into. It was just a merging of my interest 509 00:25:42.380 --> 00:25:47.119 in international affairs, geopolitics, all that kind of stuff, and business, 510 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:50.220 where they need to make risk management decisions and understand 511 00:25:50.259 --> 00:25:52.720 the threat landscape of what they're operating in. And so 512 00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:54.910 I'd advise them on that. So I worked for some 513 00:25:54.930 --> 00:25:57.910 big companies doing that, like Kroll and then Exeger and 514 00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:00.369 some companies like that. And then I got into the 515 00:26:00.410 --> 00:26:05.049 regulatory technology side of that. And it was fun because 516 00:26:05.069 --> 00:26:08.509 you're joining these smaller teams and you're working hard and 517 00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:11.910 you're building something creative. But then that whole disgruntled employee thing, 518 00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:14.400 it was always like part of me, I think, because 519 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:18.470 I was like, if I could just reconfigure it this 520 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.180 way or like I would see things I didn't really like. 521 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:22.380 And I was like, we could do it a little 522 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:24.740 better this way. And these are successful companies like they're 523 00:26:24.779 --> 00:26:27.440 all unicorns now. I mean, they're all like, you know, 524 00:26:27.460 --> 00:26:29.220 they're successful. But I was like, we could still do 525 00:26:29.259 --> 00:26:33.609 this better. And so so finally, I had worked in 526 00:26:33.650 --> 00:26:37.069 the gaming industry at Seeders Entertainment and I show up 527 00:26:37.470 --> 00:26:39.950 and I was living in Los Angeles at the time, 528 00:26:40.009 --> 00:26:43.220 working for a regulatory technology company doing illicit finance stuff. 529 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:48.920 And it was fun. It was interesting. But then it 530 00:26:48.940 --> 00:26:51.220 started wearing on me because I was like, I wish 531 00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:53.319 we could do it this way, right? And then I 532 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.140 was dating a girl and I was dating an attorney 533 00:26:56.299 --> 00:26:58.559 in Vegas. So I was traveling from LA to Vegas 534 00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:00.420 a lot. And I was like, well, it might be

535 00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:02.640 easier if I just lived in Vegas. And I was like, 536 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.440 there's probably anti-money laundering jobs in Vegas. And then the 537 00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:11.480 casinos got hit really hard for money laundering issues. And 538 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.059 they had to bill out these modern compliance programs. So 539 00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:17.039 Caesars was one of the first ones that got hit 540 00:27:17.180 --> 00:27:20.269 and responded. And so they're staffing up. And I was like, 541 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:23.289 all right, like, why don't I just do that? Why 542 00:27:23.309 --> 00:27:26.390 don't I just go in-house to a casino, work on 543 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:30.289 anti-money longer? It sounds like very interesting. And so I 544 00:27:30.329 --> 00:27:32.569 did that. And I thought maybe I'm on a trajectory 545 00:27:32.589 --> 00:27:34.819 of being a chief compliance officer or something like that. 546 00:27:35.019 --> 00:27:37.599 And I'll just, you know, just do it like that. 547 00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:40.890 But when I got there, I was like, And I 548 00:27:40.910 --> 00:27:44.329 was in my twenties at the time, like, you know, 549 00:27:44.470 --> 00:27:46.930 mid to late twenties. And I was like, okay, well, 550 00:27:47.730 --> 00:27:50.829 there's no software here. Like you got this $ 8 billion 551 00:27:50.869 --> 00:27:54.829 company on spreadsheets, trying to do anti-money laundering. And there's 552 00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:58.849 some tools, but the tools are like really single point tools. 553 00:27:58.930 --> 00:28:01.269 And they're just hiring lots of people. There's like over 554 00:28:01.289 --> 00:28:04.950 a hundred people in this department. We're not doing enough investigations. 555 00:28:05.529 --> 00:28:08.349 You know, there's billions of dollars in money transfers happening 556 00:28:08.390 --> 00:28:13.390 quite regularly. There's, you know, there's real risks here. And 557 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:17.119 this company is well-meaning, like it's a great, like modern 558 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:21.960 entertainment industry, but they have antiquated back office technology running 559 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:25.079 on servers on site. And so there's not a lot 560 00:28:25.099 --> 00:28:30.029 of opportunity to modernize in-house. So they're bringing outside companies in. 561 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.059 And that's always risky when you bring in an outside 562 00:28:33.099 --> 00:28:35.720 company that's not in your industry and they're trying to 563 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.029 learn your industry and try to build software for you. 564 00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:42.869 And it is quite messy. And I was like, OK, 565 00:28:43.130 --> 00:28:45.430 so that's when I got the idea. I was like, look, 566 00:28:45.569 --> 00:28:49.180 I've worked in reg tech in this space. I've worked 567 00:28:49.220 --> 00:28:54.160 in banking. I've worked in different verticals, cannabis, gaming. I 568 00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.960 was like, I understand conceptually what we need to build here. 569 00:28:58.589 --> 00:29:01.069 But then I had a lot of insecurity where I 570 00:29:01.109 --> 00:29:03.930 was like, well, in the gaming space is quite unique. 571 00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:08.519 Most business environments, your TAM, your total address and market 572 00:29:08.579 --> 00:29:12.299 is quite large. Right. And so you get to build 573 00:29:12.339 --> 00:29:14.569 an MVP and you get to go to like a 574 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.339 small mom pop shop and as a beta user, or 575 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:21.200 you're in YC, making a Y Combinator and you just 576 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:23.480 like deal with the portfolio companies, you know, like you 577 00:29:23.509 --> 00:29:25.990 always hear Stripe and these other stories like, we just 578 00:29:26.029 --> 00:29:28.630 made an awesome payments app and the portfolio companies use 579 00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:30.490 it until they loved it. And then we attacked one 580 00:29:30.529 --> 00:29:32.549 vertical and we got really good at that and we 581 00:29:32.589 --> 00:29:37.289 grew it. That's not gaming. Gaming is like, not used 582 00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:41.109 to software, not used to modern software, not used to iterations, 583 00:29:42.430 --> 00:29:44.990 not used to that kind of process of MVPs and 584 00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:49.039 building and iterating. They're used to finished products because it's 585 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:51.980 a manufacturing environment where you buy a slot machine that's 586 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:53.980 finished or a new system that's finished and you pay 587 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.519 a lot of money for it and you install it 588 00:29:55.660 --> 00:29:58.920 and then what you pay is what you have, like forever, basically. 589 00:29:59.619 --> 00:30:02.000 until you buy a new expensive version and they come, 590 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.619 you know, and download it on your server and it's 591 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:08.529 a big major upgrade. And that was the mentality. So 592 00:30:08.569 --> 00:30:12.609 I knew that. And secondly, you have a few really 593 00:30:12.670 --> 00:30:16.789 big brands like MGM, Caesars, Hard Rock, you know, there's 594 00:30:16.930 --> 00:30:21.059 like these big brands, FanDuel, DraftKings, that own the majority 595 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:23.140 of the gaming sites. Like a vast array of the 596 00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:25.980 gaming sites are controlled by really big brands and not 597 00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:27.700 that many brands. So I was like, if I'm gonna 598 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:31.740 be successful, I got to launch a company. The software 599 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:34.099 has to be really good. And I have to sell 600 00:30:34.140 --> 00:30:37.369 it to some of the biggest Fortune 500 companies. So 601 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:41.670 entertainment companies in the United States. And so I was like,

yeah, 602 00:30:41.730 --> 00:30:44.289 I don't think that's going to happen. And so I 603 00:30:44.730 --> 00:30:46.059 just had the idea. It was kind of sat on 604 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.210 the back burner for a few years. And then I 605 00:30:49.269 --> 00:30:52.130 went and I was the compliance officer of a bank 606 00:30:52.150 --> 00:30:54.190 doing cannabis banking and doing some other stuff. I'm kind 607 00:30:54.210 --> 00:30:56.950 of progressing in that career trajectory, trying to figure out, 608 00:30:56.970 --> 00:30:58.289 do I want to go to law school and do 609 00:30:58.309 --> 00:31:00.109 this compliance officer thing, but I don't really want to 610 00:31:00.130 --> 00:31:02.170 go to law school? Or what do I want to 611 00:31:02.190 --> 00:31:05.680 do with my career? And then I made it to 612 00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.579 another reg tech company in the cannabis space. And I 613 00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:11.359 left the banking space and I went into the cannabis 614 00:31:11.380 --> 00:31:13.400 space and I was at another reg tech company and 615 00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:17.390 I met this person who, who was at Apple, and 616 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:22.480 she was a product manager at Apple, and she led product, 617 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:25.140 and she helped develop, like, the iMac and a few 618 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:28.440 other iconic products with Apple and worked with hundreds of 619 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:30.859 engineers and stuff, and that's when I really got into 620 00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:33.789 the engineering side, where I was at this regtech company. 621 00:31:33.809 --> 00:31:36.349 I would hang out, and I would understand Agile better. 622 00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:40.329 I started really learning wireframing, and I was kind of 623 00:31:40.349 --> 00:31:43.230 a client success position. They called me director of compliance, 624 00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:46.940 and I was the bridge, kind of, quasi product, quasi 625 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:48.759 customer service. So I was kind of the bridge between 626 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.180 our clients and what the product team needed to understand. 627 00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:53.460 And I had a lot of fun because it was like, 628 00:31:53.740 --> 00:31:55.680 it tapped into a lot of the aspects of what 629 00:31:55.700 --> 00:31:59.710 I've been developing, my creativity, my expertise in a field 630 00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:03.529 like anti-money laundering and my newly found love for software. 631 00:32:04.430 --> 00:32:07.410 And I was figuring it out. And I just had 632 00:32:07.430 --> 00:32:09.430 this idea. And during COVID, I just kind of started 633 00:32:09.470 --> 00:32:11.710 sharing the idea with a couple of close friends and 634 00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:16.230 associates and was like, well, I think the gaming space 635 00:32:16.250 --> 00:32:18.609 would really benefit from software like this. And this is 636 00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:21.559 my idea. But do you think that I could walk 637 00:32:21.630 --> 00:32:26.700 into a Caesars or someone and have them buy it? Like, 638 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.880 would they do it? And then COVID started hitting and 639 00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:33.099 I had more time on my hands. And I was like, 640 00:32:33.980 --> 00:32:36.279 maybe I should put pen to paper and bring this 641 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.829 thing to life a little bit just by myself. And 642 00:32:38.890 --> 00:32:43.119 so I did. So I just created the wireframes and 643 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.940 they're all clickable, high definition wireframes and built it. And 644 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:48.539 then I started showing it. I showed it to the 645 00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.299 former chief compliance officer of Caesars, which is my former boss. 646 00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:53.660 And he's always offered mentorship. And I was like, hey, 647 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:56.119 is that offer still on the table? Show it to him. 648 00:32:56.660 --> 00:32:58.680 And he's like, this is a really good idea. And 649 00:32:58.700 --> 00:33:00.329 then I started showing it to some of my other 650 00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:04.559 friends and they were like, Okay, man, like this is 651 00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:06.180 a good idea. And I, and I asked him that 652 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.539 hard question. I was like, if I built this and 653 00:33:08.579 --> 00:33:10.359 I took on millions of dollars and we brought this 654 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:13.009 to life, do you think I can walk into a 655 00:33:13.069 --> 00:33:15.190 Caesars or an MGM when they actually buy this? And 656 00:33:15.349 --> 00:33:17.849 they're like, are you kidding me? They're like, you're so 657 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:22.289 credentialed and you've done this job and you have all 658 00:33:22.309 --> 00:33:25.849 of us surrounding you. Like, why wouldn't they, they need 659 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.490 the software. And that really started getting me over some 660 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:31.720 of that insecurity and And and then I just went 661 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:33.660 head first into it. And I was like, all right, 662 00:33:33.880 --> 00:33:36.519 let's do this thing. I was able to raise like 663 00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:38.980 a million dollars really fast for friends and families on 664 00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:42.019 a safe convertible note. And that and so there's all 665 00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.230 these validating points where I was like, people like the presentation. 666 00:33:45.250 --> 00:33:47.369 They like the software. They're saying things like they've never 667 00:33:47.410 --> 00:33:51.710 seen entrepreneurs so prepared for something. And so I started 668 00:33:51.769 --> 00:33:54.289 like just that validation, like a lot of early entrepreneurs, 669 00:33:54.349 --> 00:33:56.500 you're getting it one step at a time. And then 670 00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:58.319 you're taking it to the next step, and it's the 671 00:33:58.339 -->

00:34:00.339 next challenge, the next problem to solve, and you're just 672 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.460 going step by step by step. And I was just 673 00:34:02.500 --> 00:34:05.539 really fortunate. I was surrounded by really good people that 674 00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:08.820 encouraged me, and then I'm really glad I did it. 675 00:34:09.980 --> 00:34:13.480 That is awesome. Okay, I love this on multiple levels, 676 00:34:13.539 --> 00:34:16.840 but the thing that I'm like, oh, this is super cool, 677 00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:21.800 is that this is not a straight path. No. This 678 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:26.119 is the completely random connect the dots in like, You know, 679 00:34:26.300 --> 00:34:31.809 every possible direction you could go. Yeah. And and then. 680 00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:37.860 And taking all those pieces that you're learning, which do 681 00:34:37.929 --> 00:34:39.079 not look connected at all. 682 00:34:39.619 --> 00:34:39.920 Yeah. 683 00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:42.380 Right. You know, it just looks like a scattershot out 684 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:46.360 there on a target somewhere. And and and they're like, oh, but, 685 00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:49.949 you know, to your friend's point, you have all these credentials, 686 00:34:49.989 --> 00:34:55.590 you've done all this stuff. You understand the industry. And so, yeah, 687 00:34:55.610 --> 00:34:58.369 that totally makes sense. I'm really curious. You said that 688 00:34:59.070 --> 00:35:02.559 the gaming world is controlled by a few companies. I'm 689 00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:08.139 in California. There's all these Indian casinos here that I 690 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.199 assume are owned by the, like, there's one that's, I 691 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:15.219 don't know, it's like 10 miles over that way. Actually, 692 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:17.639 there's one even closer than that. There's one that's like 693 00:35:17.659 --> 00:35:21.130 five miles, and it's right over there, if I'm getting 694 00:35:21.150 --> 00:35:24.760 my directions right. But I always thought that was owned 695 00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:27.690 by the local tribe. 696 00:35:28.329 --> 00:35:33.739 Yeah, they are. Yeah, they most likely are. When you 697 00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:36.559 get deep into it, sometimes there's operating agreements where the 698 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:39.699 tribe's like, well, we don't really want to operate the casino, 699 00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.019 but we want the financial benefit from the casino, but 700 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.059 we want professionals to come in and operate it. So 701 00:35:45.099 --> 00:35:47.429 sometimes you get management agreements where they're like, well, they'll 702 00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:49.949 invite Caesars, but they're usually branding with that. It'll be 703 00:35:49.989 --> 00:35:53.510 like Caesars, blah, blah, blah, Cherokee, whatever, you know, it'll 704 00:35:53.530 --> 00:35:55.150 be something like that where you see that around the 705 00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:58.989 country where you'll have like an operating agreement and a 706 00:35:59.349 --> 00:36:01.750 rev share agreement. So that happens sometimes, but a lot 707 00:36:01.769 --> 00:36:04.210 of tribes are really good. They're really good at gaming 708 00:36:04.230 --> 00:36:05.670 and they've been doing it for a long time and 709 00:36:05.690 --> 00:36:09.059 they operate their own casinos. And you'll have like one tribe, 710 00:36:09.099 --> 00:36:11.460 like we have a tribe, we have two tribes out 711 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:16.050 of like Oklahoma and we have in other states. that 712 00:36:16.070 --> 00:36:19.250 will operate multiple casinos, right? They'll operate lots of casinos. 713 00:36:19.590 --> 00:36:22.349 And they'll just say, well, here's the territory that we 714 00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:24.840 want to operate in. And we're going to build casinos, 715 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:27.599 you know, up this highway. And, you know, it has 716 00:36:27.619 --> 00:36:29.860 a lot of traffic and throughput or whatever. And they'll 717 00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:32.480 do that. So you see some tribes and some tribes 718 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:35.139 will build portfolios outside the tribal land where they're like, 719 00:36:35.590 --> 00:36:37.570 I'm going to have a national portfolio. So if there's 720 00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:41.710 economic downturn on my tribe or there's competition outside of 721 00:36:41.730 --> 00:36:45.469 my tribal land, for different types of businesses that we operate. 722 00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:47.909 We want to have more financial security. So we're going 723 00:36:47.929 --> 00:36:51.010 to build a national portfolio of assets. And that can 724 00:36:51.030 --> 00:36:52.769 be gaming or that can be a lot of different types. 725 00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:54.489 It can be hotels. It can be all kinds of 726 00:36:54.510 --> 00:36:59.230 different assets. And they'll have national or sometimes international portfolios, 727 00:36:59.289 --> 00:37:02.500 investment portfolios. And so they can be quite sophisticated. 728 00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.639 That's fascinating. Wow. I did not know that. 729 00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:10.039 Yeah. And in California, you have San Manuel, which you 730 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:12.860 probably know the tribe. It's a big tribe there, San Manuel. 731 00:37:13.550 --> 00:37:15.010 They operate the Palms in Vegas. 732 00:37:16.630 --> 00:37:17.070 Really? 733 00:37:17.690 --> 00:37:20.409 Yeah, they bought the Palms. And they did a beautiful 734 00:37:20.469 --> 00:37:25.119 job renovating it. And they operate their big casino and 735 00:37:25.500 --> 00:37:29.280 their big entertainment complex there in California. And they operate 736 00:37:29.420 --> 00:37:33.340 the Palms. And they own it straight up. It's their thing. 737 00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.340 They just kept the branding, the Palms, because people know it. Right, right. 738 00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:38.650 Of course,

that totally makes sense. Oh, that's so interesting. 739 00:37:38.909 --> 00:37:43.159 So I would think that... If you wanted to start small, 740 00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:45.260 you could go to one of them. Or, you know, 741 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:45.900 to like.... 742 00:37:48.219 --> 00:37:50.460 Yeah, if we want to start small, you can go 743 00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.000 to them. A lot of it's like revenue, like getting 744 00:37:53.019 --> 00:37:57.179 enough revenue fast enough to build sophisticated software. Anti-money laundering 745 00:37:57.219 --> 00:38:01.119 is very sophisticated. So if you just start with $ 60, 000 746 00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.699 agreements and you don't sign enough fast enough, and these 747 00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:04.590 are governments that you're going to and trying to get 748 00:38:04.619 --> 00:38:07.010 tribal councils to approve them and it takes a year, 749 00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:09.139 year and a half, two years. that we kind of 750 00:38:09.170 --> 00:38:12.429 made a risky strategic decision that ended up paying off, 751 00:38:12.449 --> 00:38:14.929 but it was a difficult path where we were like, 752 00:38:15.130 --> 00:38:16.530 for a couple of reasons, we're like, let's go to 753 00:38:16.570 --> 00:38:19.550 the top first, because if you take the top operators, 754 00:38:20.090 --> 00:38:22.360 most of the rest of the industry is going to follow. 755 00:38:22.380 --> 00:38:24.099 Totally makes sense. 756 00:38:24.539 --> 00:38:24.699 Right. 757 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:27.239 Cause it's a niche industry and they stick together and 758 00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:30.019 they try to do things very similarly. And a hundred 759 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:33.199 percent market penetration is very normal in this industry because 760 00:38:33.969 --> 00:38:36.349 So like slot machine manufacturers will have like a hundred 761 00:38:36.369 --> 00:38:38.650 percent of the casinos in the country using their slot machines. 762 00:38:39.409 --> 00:38:42.150 And that's very, yeah, it's very normal in this industry. 763 00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:44.320 So it's almost like a small wild. 764 00:38:44.949 --> 00:38:45.280 Yeah. 765 00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:46.940 So it's like a small town and you have like 766 00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:49.739 one hardware store. Right. And you have like one pharmacy 767 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:53.420 and everyone's like, well, I want, most people want a 768 00:38:53.460 --> 00:38:55.590 collection of games, right. They're not going to have like 769 00:38:56.269 --> 00:38:58.769 one game, right. That they offer. They're gonna have a collection. 770 00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:03.019 And there's like three or four manufacturers basically that manufacture 771 00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:06.380 certain types of games. And you're like, well, I want, 772 00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:08.880 you know, these three manufacturers in here. So you have 773 00:39:08.900 --> 00:39:11.500 like two or three big manufacturers that are basically in 774 00:39:11.699 --> 00:39:14.730 all the casinos. And they have games that are like, 775 00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:19.670 you know, that are very popular. And that's what it is. 776 00:39:19.769 --> 00:39:24.409 So one of those companies is Aristocrat. And they started 777 00:39:24.429 --> 00:39:27.519 in Australia and they started in the club space there 778 00:39:27.980 --> 00:39:31.119 They had slot machine clubs out in Australia, and they 779 00:39:31.139 --> 00:39:37.570 started there. And they hit this blockbuster game. And I 780 00:39:37.590 --> 00:39:39.309 don't know if this is their first blockbuster, but it's 781 00:39:39.349 --> 00:39:41.429 one of the most iconic games in gaming. If you 782 00:39:41.469 --> 00:39:43.469 go into a casino and you see a slot machine 783 00:39:43.530 --> 00:39:45.650 and it has a buffalo on it or three buffaloes, 784 00:39:47.210 --> 00:39:50.269 That's Aristocrat and it's in like every casino in the 785 00:39:50.309 --> 00:39:53.730 nation basically. It's a very popular game that a lot 786 00:39:53.750 --> 00:39:56.659 of people love. It's like a cult classic. And so 787 00:39:57.139 --> 00:39:59.300 it enables them to have this big market penetration. So 788 00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:02.519 it kind of happens in different verticals in gaming where 789 00:40:02.940 --> 00:40:04.840 you just know that this company is really good at 790 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.699 this thing. So everyone just kind of like takes that, right? 791 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:10.440 And they know that if I sign with them, they're 792 00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.659 already in gaming. They already know our data. They already 793 00:40:12.699 --> 00:40:15.219 know how to work with us. They know how things operate. 794 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:18.190 So it's very comfortable for them. So we were like, 795 00:40:18.250 --> 00:40:20.030 we need to be a household brand like that. We 796 00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:23.269 need to try to do that fast. So we need 797 00:40:23.289 --> 00:40:25.489 to go to the top and try to sign like 798 00:40:25.630 --> 00:40:28.199 the Caesars and the MGMs and the Wins and like 799 00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:30.630 the Vegas Strip and things like that. And then we 800 00:40:30.650 --> 00:40:33.510 can build, and tribes, like tribes are extremely important part 801 00:40:33.530 --> 00:40:36.420 of gaming fabric in the United States. So we knew 802 00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:38.800 we needed big tribes. So we started with the Eastern 803 00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:42.889 Band of the Cherokees that operated a Caesar's property in Indiana. 804 00:40:43.579 --> 00:40:45.599 And then they love the software and they invested in us. 805 00:40:45.659 --> 00:40:47.619 So then we were like, hey, we got a tribal investor, 806 00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:50.860 which positioned us better with tribes to be like, hey, 807 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.519 we got this investor and they really like the software. 808 00:40:53.980 -->

00:40:54.940 And then we were able to get some of the 809 00:40:54.980 --> 00:40:58.440 biggest tribes in the country. And when that happened, it's 810 00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:00.360 like you have name recognition. So we tried to on 811 00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:02.639 both sides, the tribal and the commercial side to get 812 00:41:02.659 --> 00:41:06.670 those iconic brands. But the other strategy there was if 813 00:41:06.690 --> 00:41:08.630 you take the top into town where most of the 814 00:41:08.670 --> 00:41:13.960 revenue is at, then competitors are disincentivized. And so there's 815 00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:15.980 a lot of financial crime software in this world and 816 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.059 a lot of it's in financial services where the TAM 817 00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:21.679 is so much bigger and the opportunity is big. And 818 00:41:21.699 --> 00:41:26.489 they like to think about expanding and diversifying and gaining 819 00:41:26.550 --> 00:41:29.590 like new market shares in new areas. And they've tried 820 00:41:29.630 --> 00:41:31.789 to come into gaming before, but they kind of crashed 821 00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:34.590 and burned because gaming is very different than a bank 822 00:41:34.929 --> 00:41:38.349 and your software needs to be set up differently. The 823 00:41:38.369 --> 00:41:40.510 data is a little different. And it's really hard to 824 00:41:40.550 --> 00:41:43.599 just stop if you're a multi-billion dollar SaaS company. to 825 00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.139 stop and be like, I'm going to build a fresh 826 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:49.949 service for this one industry where the TAM's not that big. 827 00:41:50.469 --> 00:41:53.150 Maybe I can add 60 million or 100 million ARR 828 00:41:53.170 --> 00:41:57.090 or 300 million ARR, but I'm a multi-billion dollar financial 829 00:41:57.110 --> 00:42:00.110 crime software. It's really hard to do that and to 830 00:42:00.150 --> 00:42:01.889 gain the expertise to do it well and to move 831 00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:03.989 fast enough. And so we're like, if we can take 832 00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:07.019 the top into town, then it kind of disincentivizes others 833 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.480 from coming in. And so there's a little bit of 834 00:42:10.539 --> 00:42:14.380 strategy there. But it was a difficult road because that 835 00:42:14.420 --> 00:42:17.519 means sales are very lumpy and take a long time. 836 00:42:17.619 --> 00:42:20.139 And you got to sign sweetheart deals, the big ones. 837 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:22.650 And it takes a while to go through those renewal 838 00:42:22.690 --> 00:42:25.550 cycles and to prove the value to be able to upcharge. 839 00:42:26.610 --> 00:42:28.769 And so it wasn't an easy path, but we had 840 00:42:28.809 --> 00:42:32.250 good investors that backed us. And it's been a really 841 00:42:32.269 --> 00:42:32.909 incredible journey. 842 00:42:33.750 --> 00:42:36.780 That is awesome. I love that story. And the way 843 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:41.300 you're analytically looking at it in a very non-standard way. 844 00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:44.159 Yeah, that's true. 845 00:42:44.380 --> 00:42:46.579 I would have never thought, oh yeah, start off by 846 00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:53.329 going to the biggest players because it's so counter to 847 00:42:53.389 --> 00:42:56.449 everything I've ever been taught about doing startups. 848 00:42:57.190 --> 00:42:58.030 Yeah, it is counter. 849 00:42:58.050 --> 00:43:00.340 Oh my God, that's a whole different strategy. I'm like, 850 00:43:01.019 --> 00:43:02.960 that's really interesting. 851 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:04.440 Yeah. 852 00:43:05.420 --> 00:43:16.760 And I'm trying to think of other businesses where that's normal. 853 00:43:17.969 --> 00:43:18.730 Yeah, I don't know. 854 00:43:18.750 --> 00:43:19.889 I'm having a hard time. 855 00:43:20.489 --> 00:43:25.769 I think that's what attracted people to our company. We 856 00:43:25.809 --> 00:43:29.539 never had a problem hiring extremely talented people. And I 857 00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:33.300 think it's the attractiveness of gaming's unique, financial crime in gaming. 858 00:43:33.340 --> 00:43:35.619 It's like, you know, you got like these visions of 859 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:37.429 what gaming used to be in the 70s and 60s. 860 00:43:37.460 --> 00:43:40.179 And so like, people are like, wow, you're in it 861 00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:43.110 doing this. And so I think it's interesting. But also, 862 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:46.449 we had a pretty high level Microsoft guy join our board. 863 00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:48.610 And now he's the head of AI, the AI roadmap 864 00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:51.409 at Airbnb. And he joined our board. And I would 865 00:43:51.449 --> 00:43:54.409 just have the courage to call people and ask them. 866 00:43:54.429 --> 00:43:56.170 Where's like news they know? It's like, no big deal. 867 00:43:56.190 --> 00:43:57.710 I have an open board position. I'm just going to 868 00:43:57.730 --> 00:44:00.710 ask this guy. So I asked him, and it was 869 00:44:00.730 --> 00:44:03.070 like we had contacts at Microsoft that were pretty high 870 00:44:03.090 --> 00:44:07.070 level already, because we're, you know, Microsoft's our cloud provider 871 00:44:07.090 --> 00:44:09.739 and everything like that. And so we already had our people, 872 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.019 and it was like their boss that was like pretty 873 00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:13.980 high above, and I was like, hey, can you intro 874 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:15.800 me to him? I just want to ask him if 875 00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.800 he wants to be on my board. And I just 876 00:44:17.820 --> 00:44:21.800 thought it'd be a cool relationship to Foster because OpenAI 877 00:44:21.820 --> 00:44:23.940 was coming out at the time. That was a big deal. 878 00:44:23.960 --> 00:44:25.860 And they were integrated into Microsoft at the time. It 879 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:27.519 was like a few years ago. And I was like, 880

00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:29.760 this would be an interesting relationship to deepen. And so 881 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:33.920 I did. And he was like, and he knew about 882 00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:36.920 our business. and he was like yeah absolutely and he's 883 00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:38.119 like and i asked him i was like why did 884 00:44:38.139 --> 00:44:40.829 you say yes and he was like um he was 885 00:44:40.849 --> 00:44:42.929 like because it's really interesting he talks about this point 886 00:44:42.989 --> 00:44:44.650 he's like you went to the top of the town 887 00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:47.769 and you like got him like you got whales and 888 00:44:47.809 --> 00:44:50.369 like right right and and he's like this is just 889 00:44:50.469 --> 00:44:53.199 such so different and interesting that i want to be 890 00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:54.440 a part of it i want to be on the 891 00:44:54.480 --> 00:44:56.059 board i want to understand like how you're doing it 892 00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:58.699 what what you're and he's been really helpful especially around 893 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.079 ai and our strategies and how we think about things 894 00:45:01.139 --> 00:45:03.710 so I've always kind of, so it's been good. And 895 00:45:03.750 --> 00:45:05.349 the other thing we did is like, I needed a 896 00:45:05.369 --> 00:45:09.099 board secretary at one point and I just like met 897 00:45:09.139 --> 00:45:12.179 this other person. There's this responsible gaming they call it. 898 00:45:12.219 --> 00:45:14.559 It's like player addiction is a big deal in gaming 899 00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:18.239 right now. Online gaming is becoming very popular and people 900 00:45:18.260 --> 00:45:21.940 are getting addicted. So people, there's groups and there's one 901 00:45:21.980 --> 00:45:24.760 group that I'm really good friends with the CEO and 902 00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:25.980 he invited me to be on his board and I 903 00:45:25.980 --> 00:45:30.050 just thought it would be interesting exposure. And so I 904 00:45:30.829 --> 00:45:34.469 met the general counsel of the New York Jets football team. 905 00:45:35.409 --> 00:45:38.250 And I had an open position on my board as 906 00:45:38.289 --> 00:45:40.409 a secretary. And I was like, will you like fill 907 00:45:40.429 --> 00:45:43.019 that position? She's like, yeah. And she just thought it 908 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:44.900 was really interesting what we were doing and the type 909 00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.219 of clients we had. And she came on and like, 910 00:45:47.579 --> 00:45:49.679 and now she left and she's at a big law 911 00:45:49.699 --> 00:45:52.039 firm and she represents us on the attorney side. So 912 00:45:52.059 --> 00:45:54.420 she's not on our board anymore, but she's still very 913 00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:57.219 affiliated with the company. And so it's been interesting. It's 914 00:45:57.260 --> 00:46:00.019 been really interesting. And I think there's like an attractiveness 915 00:46:00.239

--> 00:46:03.280 to a company that does something a little differently and 916 00:46:03.619 --> 00:46:06.659 is showing signs of traction and success that attracts talent. 917 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:10.639 And that reinforces the cycle, right? You get talent, you 918 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.260 get ideas, you get expertise, and you just keep growing. 919 00:46:13.579 --> 00:46:19.909 Yeah, yeah. I'm still like, I'm stuck on like, who 920 00:46:19.989 --> 00:46:23.610 else does this? The only, like in a way, what 921 00:46:23.650 --> 00:46:27.989 you're doing is kind of comparable to luxury brands. And 922 00:46:28.230 --> 00:46:31.179 I'm kind of a car nut. And so like really 923 00:46:31.219 --> 00:46:35.559 high end cars, like Ferrari has always gone after, Ferrari 924 00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:36.320 has never a. 925 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:38.119 Sale. 926 00:46:40.780 --> 00:46:44.119 And they've always had more demand than they had supply. 927 00:46:45.019 --> 00:46:48.110 And especially nowadays, you know, like they announced a new 928 00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:50.650 model and they're going to make 300 of them and 929 00:46:50.650 --> 00:46:54.670 500 people put down deposits to get on the list. 930 00:46:54.710 --> 00:46:55.610 And there's only 300 being. 931 00:46:55.429 --> 00:46:59.739 Made, you know. and and um and and you hear 932 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:02.960 oh sorry what we're saying no no go go like 933 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:06.730 you hear about these like i follow these celebrity entrepreneurs 934 00:47:06.769 --> 00:47:09.329 a lot because they're always on podcasts and talking and 935 00:47:09.349 --> 00:47:11.909 stuff and i just find it really interesting like a 936 00:47:11.929 --> 00:47:14.210 lot of the ways they think about business and the 937 00:47:14.250 --> 00:47:17.030 things they say so i do follow them like pretty 938 00:47:17.230 --> 00:47:21.250 pretty frequently and i just always found it fascinating like 939 00:47:21.590 --> 00:47:26.539 brands like ferrari these luxury brands brands like Palantir and 940 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:30.869 Tesla and, you know, these types of brands, they don't 941 00:47:31.190 --> 00:47:36.369 invest hardly anything in marketing. And like Palantir talks about, like, 942 00:47:36.389 --> 00:47:39.469 we don't even like invest in marketing and stuff like that. 943 00:47:39.610 --> 00:47:43.400 And I find it very interesting. We do invest some 944 00:47:43.460 --> 00:47:46.579 in marketing, but like, but there's something to be said 945 00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:50.239 about product focused CEOs that just make a really good 946 00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:54.250 product and that continue to develop the product and and 947 00:47:54.289 --> 00:47:56.469 people need the product. And then the brands kind of 948 00:47:56.510 --> 00:47:58.429 speak for it where you're like, you know, we're in 949 00:47:58.469 --> 00:48:02.070 these casinos, they're using it and it's getting better by 950 00:48:02.090

--> 00:48:04.900 the day. And we're iterating really fast. And it's just, 951 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.340 you start, you know, you just start that, that, that, 952 00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:10.659 that journey. I think the only parallel that I've seen is, 953 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:13.119 and it's not, it's not really a parallel, but there's 954 00:48:13.260 --> 00:48:16.940 aspects of it that I've taken inspiration from is like 955 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.039 a Jeff Bezos, like an Amazon. And not that he 956 00:48:21.059 --> 00:48:24.570 went after the biggest fish at first, but everyone saw 957 00:48:24.630 --> 00:48:28.150 him as trying to be like a technology play. And 958 00:48:28.190 --> 00:48:31.110 he's like, I'm not, he's like, I'm a customer play. 959 00:48:31.550 --> 00:48:35.030 He's like, I'll do anything because my one focus is 960 00:48:35.070 --> 00:48:38.449 like serving these customers. So like I'll buy the warehouse 961 00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:42.320 and I'll buy the logistics companies or I'll figure out 962 00:48:42.340 --> 00:48:44.780 how to do logistics better. And like, I'll do this, 963 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:47.440 I'll do that. And people were like, like these investors 964 00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:49.639 and stuff were like confused for a while. And he's like, look, 965 00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:51.300 as long as you're getting your returns and the company 966 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:54.579 is growing, He's like, I'm not boxed into this category. 967 00:48:55.380 --> 00:48:55.639 Right. 968 00:48:56.440 --> 00:48:59.530 And so for us, that's kind of that drew inspiration. 969 00:48:59.570 --> 00:49:02.050 And the other whole thing about Amazon being, being like 970 00:49:02.130 --> 00:49:05.769 exploratory and stuff like that. Um, and always exploring and 971 00:49:05.809 --> 00:49:08.050 innovating and things like that. I always just thought that 972 00:49:08.090 --> 00:49:11.949 was so interesting that people gave these companies so much 973 00:49:12.030 --> 00:49:15.289 flack for not being profitable. And like the truth was, 974 00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:18.489 if they stopped innovating and building new things, they would 975 00:49:18.510 --> 00:49:22.639 be extremely profitable but they were growing and exploring and 976 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.940 learning and investing and reinvesting all the capital into the 977 00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:29.340 company which was very unusual at the time like they 978 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:33.360 lead they like my maybe this is an arrogant way 979 00:49:33.380 --> 00:49:36.340 of thinking but you have leaders who are creative thinkers 980 00:49:36.380 --> 00:49:39.139 that do things in new ways and and they test 981 00:49:39.159 --> 00:49:43.579 their hypothesis fast and they iterate fast so they can 982 00:49:43.639 --> 00:49:46.619 figure it out. And everyone else follows. So like a 983 00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:49.429 lot of the patterns that you're hearing about the MVP 984 00:49:49.489 --> 00:49:52.230 that goes here and does this and does that, that's 985 00:49:52.269 --> 00:49:54.670 a pattern and that's successful in certain parts of the market, 986 00:49:54.730 --> 00:49:57.369 maybe most of the market. And it's a pattern, but 987 00:49:57.409 --> 00:50:00.559 someone created that pattern. Right. So I'm like, I'm not 988 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:03.360 constrained in a box of being like, I have to 989 00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:05.380 do it this way because this is the recipe. No, 990 00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:07.320 like I'm going to look at all the tools in 991 00:50:07.340 --> 00:50:08.860 the tool chest and I'm going to look at the 992 00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:11.199 market and I'm going to be like, what are the 993 00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:13.739 best tools that I can configure to like do what 994 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:15.750 I want to do? And then I'm going to iterate 995 00:50:15.789 --> 00:50:18.670 really fast and learn and solve problems while I go 996 00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:21.550 and create my own path. And that's what we've done. 997 00:50:22.429 --> 00:50:27.769 That is very, very cool. It's, it's, uh, yeah, it's, 998 00:50:29.590 --> 00:50:33.320 The people that you're talking about, the companies you're talking about, 999 00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:35.719 I think part of the reason that they don't do 1000 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:43.099 marketing is because, like you, they went after whale. Like, 1001 00:50:43.199 --> 00:50:47.219 Palantir went after the U.S. government as an early customer, right? 1002 00:50:47.449 --> 00:50:47.769 Right. 1003 00:50:48.610 --> 00:50:51.289 And, you know, once they got that fat paycheck, right, 1004 00:50:52.949 --> 00:50:56.530 they were like, okay, now what? You know? And so 1005 00:50:56.570 --> 00:51:02.210 they don't have to really... spend time on marketing and 1006 00:51:02.650 --> 00:51:08.360 you went after the big gaming companies and anybody who's 1007 00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:11.840 interested in the kind of services, the kind of software 1008 00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:14.079 that you have is just going to look and go, well, 1009 00:51:14.099 --> 00:51:17.000 what are those three companies? What are those five companies use? 1010 00:51:17.699 --> 00:51:19.260 And they're immediately going to come back to you. Yeah. 1011 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:22.719 And you know, yeah, I think there's a lot of validation, 1012 00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:25.340 especially like leveraging a niche industry where it was like, 1013 00:51:25.980 --> 00:51:28.400 People get desperate to raise money. And you hear the 1014 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.030 term smart capital. I'm a big believer in that. They 1015 00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:32.949 get desperate to raise money, they just raise money. And like, 1016 00:51:32.969 --> 00:51:34.769 I've even had investors say, why do you care who 1017 00:51:34.789 --> 00:51:36.170 you take money from? And I was like, I care 1018 00:51:36.190 --> 00:51:38.570 a lot.

Like, what else are they bringing to my 1019 00:51:38.630 --> 00:51:42.670 company than cash? Like, I can go get cash. But, like, 1020 00:51:43.110 --> 00:51:45.239 there's plenty of doctors and attorneys in this world and 1021 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:47.460 other people that have cash, and they're, like, they want 1022 00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:49.460 to see it grow, and I can go get 50, $ 100, 000 1023 00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:52.019 checks or whatever I need to do from 30, 40, 1024 00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:55.659 50 people. Like, I can get cash, but, like, what 1025 00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:57.619 value are you bringing to the company? Like, how are 1026 00:51:57.659 --> 00:51:59.119 you going to help us? So we ended up with 1027 00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:01.969 a long tail of angel investors that are executives of 1028 00:52:01.989 --> 00:52:05.210 the gaming industry. And so then. 1029 00:52:05.230 --> 00:52:05.750 So smart. 1030 00:52:06.449 --> 00:52:08.449 So when you do that, and then your board's full 1031 00:52:08.469 --> 00:52:13.909 of them, like, then... It's interesting because of these players. 1032 00:52:13.929 --> 00:52:17.960 We have VCs that are in this industry, and we 1033 00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.880 have technologists in this industry that have been in, like 1034 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:25.099 the Microsoft guy who's over the gaming on Microsoft Cloud 1035 00:52:25.300 --> 00:52:31.230 in gaming. We have these individuals that are diverse knowledge 1036 00:52:31.269 --> 00:52:33.789 and skill set that can contribute in different ways to 1037 00:52:33.809 --> 00:52:36.579 the company. And they do, like, even if it's like 1038 00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:38.820 angel investors, it's hard to get them to kind of 1039 00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:41.699 like actually contribute, right? They're busy people doing other things. 1040 00:52:42.300 --> 00:52:45.320 But like, I know that I can pick up the 1041 00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:47.539 phone any time of day and I can call the 1042 00:52:47.659 --> 00:52:50.340 former CEO of Sears Entertainment, who was the CEO of 1043 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:54.289 Hertz Car Rental, and I can ask him like anything 1044 00:52:54.369 --> 00:52:58.349 I want, like mentorship, whatever. I know that I can 1045 00:52:58.389 --> 00:53:01.449 pick up the phone to, you know, these gaming executives 1046 00:53:01.469 --> 00:53:04.159 and like, you know, a Jim Murren type figure who 1047 00:53:04.219 --> 00:53:06.239 is like the chairman of MGM at one point, and 1048 00:53:06.260 --> 00:53:08.159 he was the chairman of Resorts World and all this 1049 00:53:08.179 --> 00:53:10.960 other stuff. Or I can get through them through the 1050 00:53:11.000 --> 00:53:14.300 investors at Investing Connectify. I know, you know, I have 1051 00:53:14.389 --> 00:53:16.710 all these collections of these executives. I have people that 1052 00:53:16.750 --> 00:53:21.190 have run casinos at old Vegas, like Fremont Street and stuff. 1053 00:53:21.210 --> 00:53:23.809 And I can call these guys and they'll invite me 1054 00:53:23.829 --> 00:53:26.900 to happy hours where there's other, you know, these executives 1055 00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:30.989 hanging around. And, and this priceless, right? You can't pay 1056 00:53:31.070 --> 00:53:34.460 for that kind of access and it might not convert sales, 1057 00:53:34.940 --> 00:53:37.420 but it builds brand and it builds reputation and it 1058 00:53:37.539 --> 00:53:41.739 opens up opportunities. over periods of time. And I think 1059 00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:43.559 that's valuable. And I think a lot of young entrepreneurs, 1060 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:46.820 including me, it's easy to get frustrated and be like, hey, 1061 00:53:46.900 --> 00:53:48.639 I have all these guys investing. Why am I not 1062 00:53:48.659 --> 00:53:51.679 closing deals faster? Why is the company not building faster? 1063 00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:54.739 But there's a professional management skillset. Like you have to 1064 00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:56.360 get really good at sales. You have to be really 1065 00:53:56.389 --> 00:53:58.269 good at like crafting deals. You have to get good 1066 00:53:58.289 --> 00:54:00.989 at closing them. You have to get good at delivering software, 1067 00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:04.769 supporting customers. Like none of that goes away, but at 1068 00:54:04.809 --> 00:54:09.150 least like now it's like learning how to leverage access, 1069 00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:14.480 and what types of additional value can we deliver to 1070 00:54:14.500 --> 00:54:19.239 different parts of the market through that access, right? Right. 1071 00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:23.739 And I think for us, we're, I think with AI, 1072 00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:26.139 they say SaaS is dead. A lot of people say that. 1073 00:54:27.159 --> 00:54:30.659 And I think SaaS will be there for certain types 1074 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:35.070 of things, for sure. Trust and assurance, and there's certain 1075 00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:36.829 things that companies aren't going to want to do in-house. 1076 00:54:36.889 --> 00:54:40.809 But like But you have to ask yourself, and I've 1077 00:54:40.849 --> 00:54:44.320 asked myself this, similar to Amazon, they're not a tech company. 1078 00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:47.460 They're like focused or client centric company and they'll do whatever, 1079 00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:49.539 you know, so diverse range of things they can do. 1080 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:52.400 You have to ask yourself, like, what are you delivering? 1081 00:54:52.780 --> 00:54:58.380 That's valuable, right? Because writing code isn't the holy grail anymore, right? 1082 00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.639 The friction is going down. So just the fact that 1083 00:55:00.659 --> 00:55:03.280 I write code for someone else isn't enough anymore, right? 1084 00:55:03.889 --> 00:55:05.849 yet like what are you delivering and for us it's 1085 00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:08.809 intelligence it's like we sit on an

incredible amount of 1086 00:55:08.829 --> 00:55:13.050 data in the gaming industry financial crime is sophisticated it's 1087 00:55:13.170 --> 00:55:18.210 networked actors are moving across industries and economies doing suspicious 1088 00:55:18.269 --> 00:55:21.909 stuff and so there's a lot of different ways to 1089 00:55:22.010 --> 00:55:24.880 deliver on this intelligence that can be improved software features 1090 00:55:25.050 --> 00:55:27.239 that enable you to get to a and z faster 1091 00:55:27.380 --> 00:55:31.920 or better that can be trends and analysis and benchmarking 1092 00:55:31.960 --> 00:55:37.289 and like consortiums and all kinds of things, right? And 1093 00:55:37.309 --> 00:55:39.989 so that's really the next phase is like, you know, 1094 00:55:40.750 --> 00:55:43.789 where we might've started off as like a SaaS company 1095 00:55:44.590 --> 00:55:49.630 and we converted to a full stack AI SaaS company 1096 00:55:49.650 --> 00:55:54.119 or whatever. And then the next like frontier is look 1097 00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:56.380 at the market and figure out what they actually need 1098 00:55:57.500 --> 00:56:01.329 and then become that company. And for us, it's probably 1099 00:56:01.389 --> 00:56:05.369 going to become like an intelligence company. And that can 1100 00:56:05.469 --> 00:56:09.780 serve all kinds of different things you can do with 1101 00:56:09.820 --> 00:56:12.260 a company like that that has that mandate. Yeah. 1102 00:56:12.860 --> 00:56:16.179 God, I love it. I'm looking at the time and 1103 00:56:16.219 --> 00:56:20.719 realizing that I've had you for almost an hour. And 1104 00:56:20.739 --> 00:56:24.099 I'm like, this is fascinating because I really appreciate the 1105 00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:28.840 way you think about this stuff. Because it's not what 1106 00:56:28.900 --> 00:56:34.599 I normally hear. Like, that's awesome. I love that. And 1107 00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.510 that's part of the whole reason for this podcast is 1108 00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:47.590 to have people talk about non-standard ways of thinking. And 1109 00:56:47.849 --> 00:56:53.750 here's what's possible. And you're not. 1110 00:56:56.559 --> 00:57:01.079 You're not talking about what's safe and predictable and proven 1111 00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:04.719 from 10 years ago. You're like, you're doing this exploring thing, which, 1112 00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:07.699 you know, part of the reason Amazon is so good 1113 00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:10.010 is the, as you said, they're doing all this exploring 1114 00:57:10.110 --> 00:57:10.679 all the time. 1115 00:57:11.409 --> 00:57:11.670 Yeah. 1116 00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:14.289 And they're totally like, remember the Amazon phone? 1117 00:57:15.789 --> 00:57:16.170 Oh yeah. 1118 00:57:16.809 --> 00:57:21.510 Right. Which was multiple billions of dollars that they just 1119 00:57:21.789 --> 00:57:24.480 threw away. Because they couldn't get it to be six. 1120 00:57:24.699 --> 00:57:28.219 So they're willing to really step out on the edge 1121 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:32.619 and take a risk and learn from it and then go, OK, 1122 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.449 we played that game long enough. Time to kill it 1123 00:57:37.469 --> 00:57:41.570 because we can't figure out how to make it profitable. Next, 1124 00:57:42.530 --> 00:57:44.610 what are we going to do now? Which I think 1125 00:57:45.369 --> 00:57:51.360 is so underappreciated. And I really love how you're just like, 1126 00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:52.880 we're going to go experiment. We're going to learn stuff. 1127 00:57:53.099 --> 00:57:56.079 We're going to take care of our customers. Because at 1128 00:57:56.099 --> 00:57:58.659 the end of the day, you're right. That is all 1129 00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:01.989 the focus, is what makes the customers happy. The other 1130 00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:06.809 thing I really love is that because you were talking 1131 00:58:06.869 --> 00:58:10.230 so much about networking and talking with people, one of 1132 00:58:10.289 --> 00:58:12.570 the drums that I've been banging on for a while 1133 00:58:12.650 --> 00:58:16.550 is that for people that are in engineering jobs, They 1134 00:58:16.610 --> 00:58:19.670 really need to network a lot and talk with strangers. 1135 00:58:20.789 --> 00:58:28.130 And you're very clearly comfortable in that environment. And I 1136 00:58:28.389 --> 00:58:32.469 just like hearing more stories about people doing that. Because 1137 00:58:32.489 --> 00:58:37.769 I think that's... I don't think there's enough... There's not 1138 00:58:37.809 --> 00:58:42.150 enough people in the engineering world talking about that as 1139 00:58:42.210 --> 00:58:48.269 being a very high-value behavior. um which you know but 1140 00:58:48.289 --> 00:58:51.530 then they complain that they can't get stuff to happen 1141 00:58:51.550 --> 00:58:55.539 um and it's because they don't have enough connections you know. 1142 00:58:55.719 --> 00:58:58.179 Yeah and they yeah i think that's a good point. 1143 00:58:58.260 --> 00:59:01.139 Yeah and and so i'm like oh my god this 1144 00:59:01.179 --> 00:59:03.170 guy totally gets the whole value of having a network 1145 00:59:04.010 --> 00:59:06.050 completely makes sense that's awesome. 1146 00:59:06.889 --> 00:59:09.030 Yeah and it's a balancing trick it's not all even 1147 00:59:09.090 --> 00:59:11.199 it's like for the first years of the company, I 1148 00:59:11.219 --> 00:59:13.090 was very product focused and I would put other people 1149 00:59:13.110 --> 00:59:15.389 in the company out in front. Right. And they did 1150 00:59:15.409 --> 00:59:17.570 thought leadership and they would do podcasts and they would 1151 00:59:17.610 --> 00:59:21.369 do panel discussions and stuff. And at first, I thought 1152 00:59:21.389 --> 00:59:23.110 it would make the company look bigger than it was 1153 00:59:23.150 --> 00:59:25.300 and it did because you had like this professional face 1154 00:59:25.320 -->

00:59:27.780 with different people out there and I could focus on 1155 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.269 products so I can make sure the product was really, 1156 00:59:30.289 --> 00:59:35.650 really good and everything like that. But then I realized recently, 1157 00:59:35.670 --> 00:59:41.400 I was like, if you, I see the world in 1158 00:59:41.440 --> 00:59:43.579 a certain way in my industry, and that's what the 1159 00:59:43.619 --> 00:59:50.510 software fulfills, is addressing a problem because of X, Y, 1160 00:59:50.539 --> 00:59:55.079 and Z information, right? Not everyone stitches that information together 1161 00:59:55.110 --> 00:59:58.730 into a narrative and understands it. And if I could 1162 00:59:58.849 --> 01:00:05.769 get out here and start being more public and communicating, 1163 01:00:06.469 --> 01:00:09.010 you know, the way I see the world. And if 1164 01:00:09.050 --> 01:00:11.530 that resonates with people and they see the world in 1165 01:00:11.550 --> 01:00:15.289 a similar way, then that helps everyone. It raises the 1166 01:00:15.329 --> 01:00:19.269 standards of this area of the industry. It helps adoption 1167 01:00:19.289 --> 01:00:23.610 of the software and it helps new opportunities emerge and 1168 01:00:23.630 --> 01:00:26.909 things like that. And so it's really been a change 1169 01:00:26.989 --> 01:00:30.409 over the last like six to 12 months of me 1170 01:00:30.469 --> 01:00:32.989 just saying, yeah, this is the next phase and the 1171 01:00:33.050 --> 01:00:35.650 next thing to do. So it's not always even, but 1172 01:00:35.690 --> 01:00:38.670 I agree with you. I think you hear these terms 1173 01:00:38.690 --> 01:00:42.880 like forward deployed engineers and there's like more, now there's 1174 01:00:42.980 --> 01:00:46.800 more demand for engineers that have interpersonal skills to get 1175 01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:50.559 out there and communicate with people. We don't have that 1176 01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:54.360 forward deployed engineers. We don't have that need yet, but yeah, Um, 1177 01:00:54.679 --> 01:00:58.539 having technical people that can communicate really effectively is so 1178 01:00:58.579 --> 01:01:02.780 crazy important because with AI, you don't have the luxury 1179 01:01:02.820 --> 01:01:05.360 of just being a backend guy anymore. You're not like 1180 01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:07.980 a backend database guy. And you're like, I'm just going 1181 01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:10.119 to hang out in the code and like talk like 1182 01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:13.139 this and be annoying and like hang out and be 1183 01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:16.489 awkward and just hang out and just write code. Because 1184 01:01:16.650 --> 01:01:18.829 most engineers don't write any code anymore. Like none of 1185 01:01:18.889 --> 01:01:21.780 our engineers really write much code at all. They're orchestrating agents. 1186 01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:27.079 They're delivering complex features. And they might have 10 or 1187 01:01:27.079

--> 01:01:30.019 15 or 20 or 50 agents working for them, like 1188 01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:33.840 digital employees. And they're managing this, which means they need 1189 01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:36.099 to come to sprint planning and be able to communicate 1190 01:01:36.119 --> 01:01:38.380 and backlog room and be able to communicate. And when 1191 01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:39.969 I need to talk to them about a new vision 1192 01:01:40.010 --> 01:01:41.489 or idea that I have, I need them to be 1193 01:01:41.510 --> 01:01:44.050 able to think about it, conceptualize it, and translate it. 1194 01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:47.219 And these are these skills. And if they want to 1195 01:01:47.260 --> 01:01:49.099 launch a company, these are the same skills you're going 1196 01:01:49.119 --> 01:01:50.960 to use when you're networking with people and selling them 1197 01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:55.349 on your idea and communicating. So it's getting more important, 1198 01:01:55.469 --> 01:01:58.949 I think, today as the minutiae starts getting automated, like 1199 01:01:58.989 --> 01:02:01.849 the syntax is getting written and the minutiae gets automated. 1200 01:02:02.269 --> 01:02:04.710 You've got to rise above that and do more critical 1201 01:02:04.750 --> 01:02:05.869 thinking and communicating. 1202 01:02:06.750 --> 01:02:12.820 I like that. That is an awesome clip that I 1203 01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:17.610 think more engineers need to need to hear yeah this 1204 01:02:17.650 --> 01:02:19.929 has been awesome um this could turn into a two 1205 01:02:19.949 --> 01:02:24.670 hour uh or three hour podcast i'm not really careful 1206 01:02:25.289 --> 01:02:26.860 i'm gonna have to have you come back sometime in 1207 01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:30.539 the future what's the next big benchmark for you guys 1208 01:02:31.019 --> 01:02:33.579 if without like giving away any. 1209 01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:39.090 Secrets i think for us um i think two things 1210 01:02:39.250 --> 01:02:43.230 first is we just launched in australia And there's international 1211 01:02:43.250 --> 01:02:46.150 demand for our products and things. And so making that 1212 01:02:46.190 --> 01:02:49.550 successful and repeatable is going to be important for us. 1213 01:02:49.989 --> 01:02:52.380 And then there's other countries that are very interested in 1214 01:02:52.420 --> 01:02:54.820 having us enter. And we just want to see that 1215 01:02:54.860 --> 01:02:59.000 succeed and be repeatable. And then we can explore those opportunities. 1216 01:02:59.579 --> 01:03:03.659 So I think international expansion. And then secondly, there's this 1217 01:03:03.780 --> 01:03:08.159 trend in banking with consortiums where you can. 1218 01:03:09.710 --> 01:03:17.239 You can monitor customers basically across organizations in secure ways. 1219 01:03:17.900 --> 01:03:20.260 And then you can flag in a consortium like this 1220 01:03:20.300 --> 01:03:23.079 person is doing fraud across like 15 banks or whatever, 1221

01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.130 you know, or whatever. And I think that's a very 1222 01:03:26.409 --> 01:03:29.809 fascinating trend that we're seeing. NASDAQ just launched one in 1223 01:03:29.849 --> 01:03:35.329 banking with Verifin, a company they acquired that does anti-money 1224 01:03:35.349 --> 01:03:38.659 laundering financial crime software. It's very, very fascinating, a very 1225 01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:44.079 fascinating application of AI and large data sets and databases 1226 01:03:44.119 --> 01:03:47.119 and things like that. And I think it's awesome. So 1227 01:03:47.139 --> 01:03:49.639 I think that would be the next thing for us 1228 01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.480 is looking at those types of things where, like I'm saying, 1229 01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:57.079 this transition to intelligence from a standard SaaS and being like, 1230 01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:00.639 let's look at national economies and let's look at the 1231 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:03.880 goals of the government. and the goals of companies to 1232 01:04:03.900 --> 01:04:08.579 be able to operate in this more sophisticated threat environment 1233 01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:12.840 and what tools can be deployed or knowledge can be 1234 01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:17.260 provided to be able to help them scale their businesses 1235 01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:20.679 and be able to navigate risk a lot easier. And 1236 01:04:21.460 --> 01:04:23.059 so those are the things that I'm, those are the 1237 01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:27.210 next benchmarks for us is making those next steps. 1238 01:04:27.269 --> 01:04:30.030 I think. You are going to be huge. 1239 01:04:33.230 --> 01:04:35.269 I hope so. We're having fun with it. That's for sure. 1240 01:04:35.289 --> 01:04:37.000 I mean, you're having fun with it. You've got an 1241 01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:42.619 amazing vision and, uh, yeah, just keep executing. I mean, I, yeah, I, 1242 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:50.019 I think, I think you have great attitude and perspective. Um, 1243 01:04:51.179 --> 01:04:55.670 and you're willing to approach things in a very nonstandard way, 1244 01:04:57.250 --> 01:05:01.949 which as a, as a pattern seems to make people 1245 01:05:02.010 --> 01:05:12.179 more successful. The entrepreneurs that you're talking about have all 1246 01:05:12.199 --> 01:05:17.409 been very non-standard. Lots of people doubted them along the 1247 01:05:17.429 --> 01:05:22.550 way because they didn't follow a standard path. At some 1248 01:05:22.570 --> 01:05:28.960 point in time, they become leading case studies at Stanford 1249 01:05:29.179 --> 01:05:29.719 Business School. 1250 01:05:30.460 --> 01:05:33.449 Yeah. And everyone follows those patterns. Those are the new patterns, right? Yeah. Yeah. 1251 01:05:33.469 --> 01:05:35.550 It's the new, yeah. So you're doing this, you know, 1252 01:05:35.630 --> 01:05:41.389 this new pattern, um, that's very unusual. I'm super curious 1253 01:05:41.409 --> 01:05:43.530 to see where this goes. Yeah. 1254 01:05:43.570 --> 01:05:46.099 Thanks. If you stay in touch as we grow the business, 1255 01:05:46.139 --> 01:05:46.579 it'd be great. 1256 01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:50.900 Definitely to stay in touch. And, uh, I'm just, yeah, 1257 01:05:50.940 --> 01:05:54.460 this is, I'm like, wow, that's, I love it when 1258 01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:59.510 a guest makes me like check my own thinking. Oh, 1259 01:06:00.130 --> 01:06:02.030 wait a minute. That's real. Like I hadn't thought about 1260 01:06:02.070 --> 01:06:04.309 that way before. Oh my God. That makes all the 1261 01:06:04.349 --> 01:06:09.909 sense in the world. Um, or the other thing selfishly 1262 01:06:10.030 --> 01:06:14.710 is when I'm, I've been doing something weird, like, like 1263 01:06:14.750 --> 01:06:16.719 you're talking about having fun. Like I've had fun since 1264 01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:21.760 I was, since I started working. Like, you know, when 1265 01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:23.880 I got out of high school, my dad said, find 1266 01:06:23.900 --> 01:06:26.059 a job that's fun and then worry about making money. 1267 01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:29.170 And there you go. Money will come, right? 1268 01:06:29.550 --> 01:06:31.969 And all the things that I've done have, like, I've 1269 01:06:32.010 --> 01:06:34.309 followed that, right? And someone just asked me when I 1270 01:06:34.329 --> 01:06:36.909 was going to retire. And I'm like, never. 1271 01:06:36.929 --> 01:06:38.730 Yeah, why would you do that? 1272 01:06:38.750 --> 01:06:41.230 I'm having so much fun. Like, that makes no sense 1273 01:06:41.269 --> 01:06:47.219 at all. And, you know, also when you retire, according 1274 01:06:47.239 --> 01:06:49.449 to the actuarial tables, it means you have three more 1275 01:06:49.469 --> 01:06:52.219 years to live. Oh, shoot. 1276 01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:53.320 You don't want that. 1277 01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:56.900 I don't want that. I'm like, why would I do that? 1278 01:06:56.980 --> 01:06:59.760 That's so dumb. Like I'm going to keep doing this forever. Um, 1279 01:06:59.780 --> 01:07:01.719 if I can interview guys like you, then it's a 1280 01:07:01.739 --> 01:07:03.440 total win. So this has been super cool. 1281 01:07:04.019 --> 01:07:06.550 Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time. It's been, 1282 01:07:06.610 --> 01:07:07.489 it's been fun to talk. 1283 01:07:07.570 --> 01:07:09.769 Thank you. And, uh, I'm gonna have to get you 1284 01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:13.829 back on and get a, like what's happened in the 1285 01:07:13.869 --> 01:07:17.289 last X number of months. Um, and how has your 1286 01:07:17.329 --> 01:07:21.239 thinking changed? Cause I think that's, that would be fascinating. 1287 01:07:22.090 --> 01:07:23.920 Okay, definitely. We'd love to. 1288 01:07:24.940 --> 01:07:26.579 Sounds good. I'm going to stop the recording.