התמלול המלא של Engaging Students Through Fast-Paced Collaborative Learning with Toartou Kargou

charter schools and then... About seven years ago, had a little over 10 years ago now, we had our first child and we moved to get close to family. So I drove back and forth for a while, but I decided to of move closer to the bigger ISD. Cause my experience has been in smaller schools up until about seven years ago, I started a large ISD. And I was there for a few years, about seven years or so I taught science, I've taught biology, chemistry and physics. for the most part in AP Biology. And then after that, the opportunity came up at John Cooper and I wanted to get back into a smaller environment again. So I took that and I went in and that's how I ended up at Cooper. And this is actually my first year when I saw you last time, that was my first couple of months at the John Cooper School. Craig: Oh, I didn't realize that. So, well, that's cool. Well, thanks for sharing that. I think when you were there, it was... Like I didn't realize at first what was going on because we weren't there at the very beginning, but we come in and all the kids are working in pairs and you're circulating around the room helping them. And then we realized they're studying different scientists. And then at the end of this is one 80 minute block of class. And then they've all got to give these quick little, I think two to three minute present presentations. I don't remember the timeline, but I just thought it was so engaging in such a great way to start a unit. So I've given a little bit of a teaser. Why don't you tell me more about about the whole thing. Toartou: Yeah, so I mean, it was pretty quick. The idea was to sort of not necessarily, I don't want to call it speed dating, but that was the idea. Make it quick and ideas because it's quick, it forces them to make a quick connection because they can't do all anything. So we sort of reading through. But idea is you're in pairs. You will randomly select a name randomly. There were some where I saw there might be some connection with the kids and the particular names. I Craig: Named the scientists that they were right. Name of the scientists related to that unit. Toartou: Correct. I sort of try to get that child to be assigned that person. So that would hopefully create a personal attachment there and kind of go into it. But that 30, was a 80 minute block. I gave him about a five minute introduction of what I wanted them to do. I, everything was sort of on the time and the slide. So the slide was posted. I told them you have 30 minutes to sort of research and also create a presentation. And then with, after that, then each group was given about two minutes to present. So that, once again, the idea is to condense whatever they get and force them to summarize the information. I guess what I found oftentimes when you give them too much time, then they're going to just kind of post an entire paragraph and not really read it, but it's I wanted them to read what they have spent 30 minutes reading. And I think

there were limited to two slides. And, and I had the idea that while you couldn't have more than like 30 words a slide, so force them to come up with a concrete line that is easy to remember as we go along. And what then happened is after they were presented, which some of them did, but there was some rules in presenting that we won't fact check anyone. Because once again, we don't want them to feel some sort of way. once again, when you give kids idea, the first thing they do is top into Google. And as we all know, sometimes it doesn't bring the right information out. just kind of say, judgment at this point. We'll reevaluate as we go along. So the idea is when someone presents something that may have not been correct, as we go to the unit, we get to the point, it might bring that up against, hey, remember when we said this person said this when... actually was this person, the model that you attributed to this guy was actually created by this guy. So that was the idea behind it. It's something quick and fast, but it was intense because you know, Craig: It was super intense. Toartou: And that's, that's part of the idea. I was a coach as well. So you tend to do in soccer, we do these small spaces and what it does is it forces, it almost prevents you from overthinking, you know, so it keeps everything right in your frontal lobe and quick, quick, quick, so we're going to move on to the next thing. And with that, obviously they had to know that that time limits, so had to move fast. And what essentially happened is people started assigning roles to each other and things like that, you know. So that was the idea behind the presentation or the introduction to the unit. Craig: And obviously our listeners didn't really get to see it, but the kids were super engaged. mean, one, you had pairs that they were in. Did you assign them pairs or did they choose themselves? Toartou: So I did. once again, one of the things that we've established early on was that at Cooper, we did this idea of a community, a universal community that you might, you will interact people differently or you might interact with someone different. So we tried to, I tried to rotate the groupings. So there was a random selection. have a random name, a team generator up. And the idea is to get them working with different people. So it wasn't, you didn't choose your group because Oftentimes we'll find with that too, with choosing a group, you can have really productive group, but you may also have some groups that because they're friends, they're discussing other things and find themselves not productive. Craig: So with, can you like, just to give our, cause I love this so much. And I think if maybe people understood like what the course was and what that unit was, and then that'll give them a sense of like, oh, well then how could I translate to my course and my unit? So could you just give a little bit of background on what that was just so our listeners can gain a clearer picture of what was going on? Toartou: Right. So this, the course is chemistry. And it was, the unit was the atomic theory. So to start and go over this, well, goal was to get to the atom. So one of the things I had them do was came up with a list of about 10 scientists and tried to, and they had to create a presentation on those contribution to atomic theory. And some, the idea too is kind of found around about ways. So some may not have been directly related to, let's say the periodic table, but the idea behind it is like, work of these people led to some of these things here. So that was the unit, atomic theory. And we want to look at the history of it first, because at times kids tend to think that knowledge is just is just present. Like, well, at some point in time, people, they know that existed. But we, you as a 14 year old know about protons, neutrons and electrons when a short 200 years ago, or maybe 300 years ago, that wasn't the case. And these things happen because people dedicated time to doing these things. And it was important that they understood the history of that too. Cause with that, think it makes it easier to explain what things we have now and how that moving forward essentially. Craig: And you could really see doing something very similar with really almost any unit and in class. And you chose scientists, but it could be something else for somebody else. But instantly because Because it was 80 minutes. this is the whole, like this is like really it was an 80 minute hook to pull them into the unit is really what it was. And because it was so intense with like, I've got 30 minutes, me and you got to do this reading on this scientist and we got to create a two page slide with 60 max words between the slide and we got to be able to talk about it. that, like the intensity of that is. It's crazy. The jigsaw model of it. love it. it's just like, man, if you could just see the energy that the kids had as they were working. And it was it was fantastic. Toartou: Yeah. I mean, we did do something very similar to what even as far as a periodic table is concerned, we did the same thing with the models of the atom as well. So another intro to it, too, is coming from this idea of the Greek philosopher talking about atoms to where we actually have something. physical or something that we could completely describe now versus this thought experiment that existed. So we did that too, where we kind of look at the models and saw how it would change over time and who kind of... So yeah, I think that approach, depending on the group and the concept, you could do that. And I like it because of the getting everything done. And it may be scattered, it seems scattered, but as you go along, they start pulling things in. You mentioned names and someone latch on and say, hey, I remember that name from... that time and then in that process, someone else mentioned something that someone else said, kind of tie things together along the

way. So, and the energy from the kids and I think we mentioned earlier, moving around, I have, I mean, I've been a coach, been a soccer coach and a track coach for as long as I've been teaching. So there's this idea of motivation, you know, when you talk to kids, you try to give them a little things to kind of push them along the way, you know, so. And the moving around too basically is because I understand kids that give them time. If you allow them time, they'll of kind of venture off and especially with computers in front of them, venture off. So the constant moving around was to one, keep them engaged, keep them on their toes and obviously be present too for questions. Cause at time with kids, when you withdraw from and they have questions, they start venturing to different areas of things, right? And they may not raise their hand to ask a question, but if you're right there and present, they will ask those questions. And that's what proximity to them as we were working, I thought was important because it's easy to say, do the presentation. I'll go wait. But when you're close and one of the things, I'm sure you guys know this, but I was, although I wasn't fact checking them doing presentation, I was fact checking them doing research. So when someone, and I walked by and look at a slide and I see someone else, I wait a second, where did you get that? And how did you get that? And they were able to answer that question right then and there. And in process of doing that, I'm sort of prepping them for that presentation as well, because you're all going to have questions from your audience and you to be able to respond to that or make adjustments to it. So that's what you're Craig: You're going exactly where I wanted to go next. And that was really like constantly during that process. And I think there are two elements or some behavior management with doing proximity control. And we can talk about relationships and behavior management in a minute. But the other thing was you were constantly as you were circulating around the room, you were checking for understanding and engaging in descriptive progress feedback questions with the kids. So I thought that was that was an incredibly impactful part of the lesson. Do you want to talk about your process with that? Toartou: (14:14) Well, I mean, I think a lot of time with kids, it's almost like a disguise. You you want to disguise and you ask these questions as if you have no idea what they're doing, but you know what they're doing and you want to get particular things out of it. So when a kid. put something up, you're like, wait a second, what is that thing on your screen? So from their perspective or from my experience, they don't think you're checking to see what they know. They think you just asked about what's on the screen. But in the process of explaining what's on the screen, you say, OK, they're getting what I need them to get. Because at the point, if they have a picture on the screen and they aren't able to explain that, and I'm like, wait a second, let's go back to where you got that from and see what that picture is actually saying. So you're able to check for understanding. And if the information you're getting back isn't exactly where you want them to go, then you would redirect them to where you want them to learn. And that's the basic premise behind it. You sort of disguise this idea as a question you don't know. And because they're doing something, they feel like they are teaching you something. Then they're completely engaged and not thinking that you're testing them, but they're teaching you something. Craig: So I think, I mean, that's such an interesting theory is. theoretically playing dumb, not really, but kind of. But then by in doing that, you're getting them, and you said teaching others, but they are teaching others when they're giving you the answer back. And so like when we talk about for trust-based observations, when we talk about feedback, we say there's three ways, basic where you're giving the kids the answer, instructional where you're giving like hints or suggestions. And then the third one though is what we call coaching, where you're only using questions. And they all have value at different points along the way. But so often what I saw from you that day was those questions and those questions then elicit them to take their thinking further and maybe correct their own mistakes if they made mistakes or as you're saying, teaching others. And if they're teaching you what that means, then that's the deepest form of retention of learning. So it's embedding it even deeper into their thought processes or understanding, which to me seems super powerful. Toartou: Right. And I mean, like you said, teaching is the best form of retention. So once you get them to do that, there is also like, and being new at Cooper too, the idea behind some of those is giving them the confidence to share, you know, because when you have them present or teach others, there's, you only get comfortable, they only get comfortable sharing at that point. So the next time they're more bought in, the next time they're more bought in, the next time they're more bought in to where they become completely comfortable. Because we know that If they're able to teach that to someone, then they understand. So we got to get, had the goal is to get them to be comfortable enough to teach that to someone else. And by engaging with them, interacting with them on a low risk level, then they built that confidence to get up there. Cause after those interactions, when they got up to talk, they were pretty confident in sharing the information they knew. Cause they knew at that point. I've discussed this information already with Mr. Kargou. He seemed to think it was good. So the rest of the class is going to learn and going to find this beneficial. So I'm going to share this with them in most positive and enthusiastic way I possibly

can. it was actually, which you got to stay with the presentation, but it was the energy was actually considerably higher doing the presentation because some came up with, because the challenge of a few words is you got to come up with ways to tie a bunch of things together. acronyms and things like that came in and so on and so forth. So I thought it was was a good approach to go by. Craig: It condenses their learning. I as I'm listening to you talk about, you know, given the confidence to present and then the more they present, the more comfortable they are. And then the more comfortable they are taking those risks, trying new things like as I'm listening to that. And of course, I'm thinking, well, that's exactly what trust based observation wants to do with teachers. Right. As we we want to build that comfort or that trust. So then you as teachers know you can do the same thing. So listening to that was really nice for me to hear. think when, one other thing about the groups is because the time period was so short and they were just two people in the group as opposed to bigger groups, which was by design. One of the things that we were talking about before we went on air was just how that model by design, because we know sometimes in a group project when it gets three or four people, participation isn't necessarily equal. But your design in that, like, you talk about that and how that played out? Because I think that's an important little piece or trick. Toartou: It was quick. It was a 30 minute thing too. So it's one of those, depending on the level of work required and the timeframe, you may go bigger group. But in the scenario where the time period is short and the restrictions too on what they have to do. So if I say two slides and you get four people in that group, then you have one person working on the slide, the other person working on the slide, and then the other two people is kind of wandering around. So based on the assignment, that would dictate what the group size would look like. And in this case, because I wanted the intensity and everyone constantly doing something, I want a group of two, right? You can go with a larger group and do the same thing, but if that's a longer period where the intensity isn't, where you require a lot more from them, then you have more thing, more people, and you can kind of spread out. because the load, wasn't great. And so you needed a smaller group so that way everyone is tapping to do something there. And it was, once again, the idea is exposure to the material. I don't want you to be, I don't want this guy doing it. And also there's some credibility there too, because if I don't do it, because what kids typically do is I do the slide, you give the presentation and. If you have a group of five, then two do the slide and they won't get up there and kind of babble along the way. With a smaller group, they engage with the material the entire time that's there comfortable enough to get up

there and present. So that's the idea behind a small group is the intensity of it and keeping them on task by merely having very few little waste of time. Craig: And it was also it was the type of activity is it's an introduction to the unit to it's designed to draw interest. It's not a deep dive. So that factors into it as well. Let's talk about because when you're in that class and you're going around and you're circulating what's going on like it at times is playful at times you're keeping them on task. And so once you talk a little bit about just like what you do with relationships and behavior management. because I think it works really well. Toartou: Yeah, mean, that's part of that too is obviously being being an athlete and the coach as well. It's my relationship and I think we that they may be homogenous in the sense that they're all 15 years old and they're all boys in that case. When it comes to how they like to be spoken to interact, those are those are all different ways. And it takes time to find those little nuances because you learn that a certain group will prefer comedic response in another group. And so those, and unfortunately, I couldn't share a magic bullet in that case or magic pill. It's sort of a hit or miss. And those are things where you're quick on your feet. You remember what you said last time and how that went over and they kind of adjust with that. So it's a constant, as you mentioned, trying and failing. You try something and you rely on your experience and you go dig back into it and say, okay, I tried this last time. Let me try this here, see if that goes over well. And sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it doesn't. But with this particular group and their interaction with them, you sort of start knowing what works. Because the comedy works one group, but the other group, not so much. And even the style of questioning. The way you ask, one could be a why question, and one could be a what question, it's like where question. So even the style of questioning, or even the tone of voice, where one group is different. As we know, boys tend to be a bit more physical. So maybe like a fist bump or high five or so tend to kind of get their interest. Whereas girls, you, the voice come down a little bit because you don't want to feel like you're attacking them when you ask a why question, you know? So those are merely just relationship. And that's something that happens over, over a time period by interacting with, students. And as I said, I'm not coaching at Cooper, but I like meeting them with one of the couple of kids in that room, a lot of them are athletes. So I've been to a few games with. at their games and doing those games, they tend to think that you're you're bought into what they're doing and their interests. So they tend to respond a little different to question. You built that, here's a tagline for you, you built that trust, right? You built that trust. When you are going, interacting with them that way, there is this mindset, the belief you have that best interest in mind because you built that trust. So recently we did, did a course, inventories of survey. And one of the things was, do you feel that you believe Mr. Congo is committed to your success? know, and almost all of those were positive. So you built that relationship and believe that you built trust with them and I believe you have that best interest in mind. So just like any relationship, if that is there, then when those questions come up, that may be. looked into as a hard question or a rough question because they feel like you have that best interest in mind. Those questions tend to be, they tend to look at those as ways to grow then criticism, if you will. Craig: And I think, I mean, I think a lot of what I'm hearing you say though, is that also that you're getting to know each student. It's a knowledge of each individual student. And then in some ways, what we're also saying is I'm differentiating my actions or behavior according to each student because What works with one isn't going to work with others, which is all really a form of care. And it's demonstrated, obviously, in the way that the kids answered that question as well. Toartou: Yeah. And I think with Cooper being such a small environment, helps too. when I think that particular class had maybe 15 students in it. obviously, that allows you to kind Craig: Yeah, for sure. That can be easier. Toartou: ...with those very easily. But I mean, think the same thing may happen to in a larger room, of course. You may not be able to get everyone, but the hope is you get a majority of them too, and hopefully the social pressure will have the other move in the direction you want them to go. So yeah, so that helps having a small group because it's easier to pick up their tendencies and what they like. Craig: Fair enough. Yeah, you get more time with each kid that way. I agree. Well, look, before we went on the air, I was just asking you, being new to John Cooper, like, what you thought about trust-based observations, you started to talk about it about maybe traditional observations and what they said versus what it felt. So I am just kind of curious if you wouldn't mind talking about that a little bit as well. Toartou: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I found a bit different, and I think in theory, the traditional observation intention is great, and in theory it is, but I think sometimes it's the practice and the application of it. seems to leave people on the fence. So usually what happens is that you get someone comes in and they tell you, well, this isn't a got you situation. So just do what you do. And what then happens is you do things that are essentially by the book and no one is saying you shouldn't do things by the book. But oftentimes with some kids in any good situation, we find that some things might require an orthodox approach. But if you're so concerned about what this supervisor is

going to write in this thing, because it's not a theory, then you're least likely to try those things. And as a result, you leave a few kids in the weeds and continue on. But I think what I like about the trust-based things, the idea is to create an environment where, because the goal for every teacher in every institution is that students are growing and learning. And sometimes that requires we do the things that's prescribed in the textbook. or in graduate school, that A, B, C, D. In other scenarios, it requires you to lean a little bit in that relationship and try something a little different. But the intention is still that you want that child to grow. So with the trust-based observation, it allows you to just kind of tap into maybe some of those skills that may not exactly line up with theory, but still kind of aid you in getting that kid along the path that they need to go in. And that being the case, it allows you to kind of try, like you said, because at time when I've been in public schools, the joking with the student when the principal is in is not very likely. And usually what happens is all the kids are now on guard. So everyone is sort of stiff and sort of robotic in that case. And the brain doesn't allow you to absorb information when you're anxious and sitting stiff in your chair. Whereas with the trust base and what I've experienced so far at Cooper, is that you're trusted to be that professional and you're trying different things to get the kids engaged. So as you probably observed when you're in there, the kids were loose. They were doing things as they would do normally. And in some cases, when you walked in, whatever they were doing, almost nothing changed when you walked in. They continued on with exactly what they were doing. No one sat up straight in their chair and no one changed a tone of voice because that's kind of the... change it to my voice because I felt that this is trust-based and what they're aimed to learn is as a teacher, want feedback, positive feedback and seeing how I can improve. So that was my mindset. And when I went in for the observation or the review afterwards, everything I got was consistent with that. And that was a breath of fresh air compared to sort of what I've seen in the past where things that weren't quite aligned with the protocol or the pedagogy were sort dings because you didn't, you did this that was kind of outside the realm of things that you were supposed to do, or you didn't do these things because that is too a case where people find a need for the, they call it the dog and pony show when it's absolutely not necessary. Cause what you're down or left with is something unauthentic and the kids are looking at it it's like, well, this isn't real Mr. Kargou. What is, what is he doing? You know, so we don't want to create that either. And with the trust base, what it allows you to do then is sort of be that authentic self to where the kids know you're being yourself. And class is going on as usual. And this isn't just a show for the people that just walk into the room 15 minutes into class. And they're walking around with everyone with a computer and clicking and typing and things like that. So they buy into the process because the teacher also is buttons of the process as well. That's kind of what I felt about the trust-based thing and what it led me, allows me to create that, keep my teaching or my classroom environment the same as it always is when the kids are in there with no one else around. Craig: Super. Thanks, Toartou. I appreciate it. Hey, Toartou, we might have some listeners that might be interested in learning more about this project that we were talking about, that the intro project. so. Would you mind sharing like your professional email with the listeners in case anybody wanted to reach out? Toartou: Well, I I used I guess I used my Cooper email or you could just might have a personal email that I use. Is it again Craig: Your choice. Your choice. Toartou: I mean, I'm I'm an educator. I'm always open to teach and I'm not exactly sure that but I could give him my personal email, which is just my first name. toartou.kargou@gmail.com. Craig: Yeah, but they're not gonna know how to spell your name because it doesn't have any faces. Toartou: So do I need to enter it somewhere? Craig: Yeah, tell them what it is, Toartou: Okay, so it's t-o-a-r-t-o-u.k-a-r-g-o-u at gmail.com. Craig: Super Toartou, hey. Thank you so much and thanks so much for letting me come and watch your class. And I hope I'm out of John Cooper again soon and we can say hi in person. Toartou: Well, thank you. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity and hopefully someone learned something and hopefully we can go on these journeys together as teachers and hope to impact the next generation or so. Craig: Exactly. Thanks so much, Toartou. Bye bye. Toartou: Thank you. Appreciate it. Craig: Thank you for listening to 20 minutes of teaching brilliance. If the show resonated with you, you can help other teachers by liking, sharing, and subscribing. More importantly, if you don't like the way you're being evaluated, don't like being nitpicked and scored, then check out Trust-Based Observations at TrustBased.com, where we know the path to growth is through safe spaces for risk taking. Tell your principal about it, and change your school's observations to a model of trust and support and join the thousands of teachers who now experience the joy of observations the way they're meant to be done.