התמלול המלא של This Conversation Actually Explains Oneness With The Universe | Sebene Selassie

00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.379 the notion of paradox. Can you talk about that a 70 00:04:14.409 --> 00:04:14.710 little bit? 71 00:04:16.310 --> 00:04:19.970 Yes. Paradox is the truth of our reality. And this 72 00:04:20.129 --> 00:04:23.310 truth I alluded to, it's called the two truths of 73 00:04:23.389 --> 00:04:27.089 the absolute truth and the relative truth is a central 74 00:04:27.189 --> 00:04:33.329 paradox of really all spiritual traditions and in Buddhism itself, 75 00:04:33.990 --> 00:04:38.100 that it's hard for our minds to kind of grapple 76 00:04:38.149 --> 00:04:42.300 with or wrap around the fact that we are interconnected. 77 00:04:43.129 --> 00:04:46.829 So science shows us this, physics has shown kind of 78 00:04:46.850 --> 00:04:51.279 the energetic truth of non-separation that we're all kind of 79 00:04:51.379 --> 00:04:54.980 vibrating energy on a profound and deep level that we 80 00:04:55.019 --> 00:04:58.920 can't perceive. And that is true at the same time 81 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:01.629 that it's true. You are you over there and I'm 82 00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:04.709 me over here and I'm sitting on a chair and 83 00:05:04.949 --> 00:05:08.069 I'm sitting at a desk and these are objects in reality. 84 00:05:08.569 --> 00:05:11.480 But it doesn't cancel the fact that there's an energetic 85 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:16.399 connection interconnection at the heart of things. And again, you know, 86 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:18.560 this is kind of goes against our logical mind. It 87 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:21.480 goes against our senses. So paradox is something that we 88 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:23.639 have to accept on a deep level. 89 00:05:24.500 --> 00:05:27.509 Why was this theme of belonging so important to you 90 00:05:27.589 --> 00:05:28.470 to explore in the book? 91 00:05:30.430 --> 00:05:32.930 Well, I mentioned in the book that I wrote this 92 00:05:32.990 --> 00:05:35.680 book over a year, but I've kind of been living 93 00:05:35.709 --> 00:05:38.680 the themes of this book my entire life. And so 94 00:05:38.740 --> 00:05:42.990 belonging is, important because I didn't feel it for so long. 95 00:05:43.170 --> 00:05:47.779 So I came to a spiritual search for it through 96 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:52.300 the Dharma and through different practices, but really I felt 97 00:05:52.379 --> 00:05:56.279 it on a more relative or social level from a 98 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:00.439 really young age, immigrating here when I was three from Africa, 99 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.829 from Ethiopia, and growing up black and white neighborhoods. And, 100 00:06:05.009 --> 00:06:07.370 you know, I've been on this podcast before talking about 101 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:11.300 kind of what that's like, that feeling that you don't belong. And, 102 00:06:12.860 --> 00:06:16.620 I fundamentally believe that this crisis of belonging is showing 103 00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:18.939 up for many of us, regardless of whether we grow 104 00:06:19.000 -->

00:06:21.670 up in homogenous communities where we do look like everyone 105 00:06:21.699 --> 00:06:25.149 around us or not, because we can be made to 106 00:06:25.250 --> 00:06:28.509 feel that we don't belong because we're not successful enough 107 00:06:28.589 --> 00:06:31.689 or smart enough, or we have ideas about how we 108 00:06:31.769 --> 00:06:35.009 should look or seem or be that are fed to 109 00:06:35.149 --> 00:06:39.110 us by advertising, by the media. This crisis of belonging 110 00:06:39.209 --> 00:06:42.029 I experienced in a unique way, but I think all 111 00:06:42.050 --> 00:06:45.899 of us have greater or lesser experiences or degrees of it. 112 00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:54.699 You talk a lot about, in a very non-sappy, approachable way, 113 00:06:55.079 --> 00:06:59.399 this concept of loving yourself. And what I took from that, 114 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:03.829 and this may be just a straight lift, is if 115 00:07:03.870 --> 00:07:06.629 there are parts of yourself that you're at war with, 116 00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:11.579 then you've got separation internally, and that blocks you from 117 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:15.279 feeling connected to other people. Is that an accurate summation 118 00:07:15.379 --> 00:07:15.819 in some ways? 119 00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:21.879 Yeah, definitely. That's a really beautiful summation. That delusion of separation, 120 00:07:22.629 --> 00:07:25.470 only believing one side of the paradox that we're separate, 121 00:07:25.490 --> 00:07:29.009 that we're different, that we don't belong, that plays out 122 00:07:29.129 --> 00:07:32.189 both in our sense of feeling connected to others, but 123 00:07:32.230 --> 00:07:35.870 it also can make us feel disconnected from ourselves. And 124 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:38.930 have parts of ourselves that we're trying to get rid of, 125 00:07:38.949 --> 00:07:43.500 that we're trying to constantly change or improve. And that 126 00:07:43.540 --> 00:07:47.100 doesn't mean that we don't have aspirations for growth and 127 00:07:47.139 --> 00:07:51.620 for transformation, but we're not doing that in contention with 128 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.790 the reality of who we are. We're allowing ourselves to 129 00:07:54.850 --> 00:07:57.129 grow in kind of a more natural way that comes 130 00:07:57.269 --> 00:08:01.410 from this loving care and attention and And I talk, 131 00:08:01.629 --> 00:08:04.269 I think, a few times about the contention with reality 132 00:08:04.430 --> 00:08:08.389 being kind of a fundamental part of the teachings and 133 00:08:08.410 --> 00:08:12.939 a fundamental part of not belonging. When we're in contention 134 00:08:12.949 --> 00:08:15.680 with who we are or how we are, that causes 135 00:08:15.740 --> 00:08:19.079 that sense of separation or unhappiness. And we are who 136 00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:21.180 we are because of what we've been through. Why would 137 00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:22.399 we be any different? 138 00:08:23.779 --> 00:08:26.379

What are the parts of you that you find difficult? 139 00:08:28.050 --> 00:08:30.009 Oh my God. I don't know if we have enough time, Dan. 140 00:08:31.389 --> 00:08:33.610 I'm asking this because you are very brave in the 141 00:08:33.649 --> 00:08:36.570 book in discussing this. So you can give us the 142 00:08:36.590 --> 00:08:38.789 abridged version or we can do a little free therapy. 143 00:08:40.700 --> 00:08:44.440 I'll always take therapy. You know, it's everything from the 144 00:08:44.620 --> 00:08:48.299 physical reality and that started young. I had all sorts 145 00:08:48.340 --> 00:08:51.519 of things I didn't like about myself. I started to 146 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:54.570 be aware of my body in ways that were being 147 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:57.210 observed by others. So, you know, I thought my Legs 148 00:08:57.250 --> 00:08:59.190 were too skinny or my nose was too big or 149 00:08:59.230 --> 00:09:02.029 my boobs were too small or, you know, any number 150 00:09:02.250 --> 00:09:06.080 of physical attributes that I have contention with. And then 151 00:09:06.379 --> 00:09:09.460 as I started to get older, noticing parts of myself, 152 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:12.879 seeing patterns that I had and really being unhappy with 153 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:16.440 those that I have a lot of envy or I can. 154 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:21.200 I have domineering tendencies, so I can tend to be 155 00:09:21.259 --> 00:09:23.860 a know-it-all. I like to joke around. or I did 156 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:26.279 joke with my roommate of many years, my best friend, 157 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.779 Peter Bird, shout out to Peter, that he was allowed 158 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.960 to be right on Tuesdays. And that these things show 159 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.909 up in kind of sometimes subtle ways, sometimes not so 160 00:09:37.929 --> 00:09:40.269 subtle ways. But when I see them, when I see 161 00:09:40.309 --> 00:09:43.149 them clearly, it doesn't make me happy. I want to 162 00:09:43.190 --> 00:09:45.970 kind of get rid of them. And what practice and 163 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:51.470 what therapy and different self-awareness techniques and teachings have taught 164 00:09:51.500 --> 00:09:54.470 me is to really see those clearly, but then meet 165 00:09:54.529 --> 00:09:59.850 them with kindness. And that paradoxical transformative power of practice 166 00:09:59.960 --> 00:10:02.460 is that when we do that, when we meet things 167 00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:05.759 with clarity and kindness, if they're problematic, they can start 168 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:06.419 to dissolve. 169 00:10:08.690 --> 00:10:11.129 So what does that look like in practice? How, if 170 00:10:11.169 --> 00:10:14.809 I'm listening at home and I want to try this, 171 00:10:15.649 --> 00:10:16.289 what does it look like? 172 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.059 So I'll take one, the need to want to be right, 173 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:23.860 which shows up a lot with my partner, my husband, Frederick, 174 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:28.559 that for the early years and many years of our 175 00:10:28.700 --> 00:10:33.139 now 12-year relationship, we would kind of battle because he 176 00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:36.860 has that tendency too. So our conversations would almost feel 177 00:10:36.899 --> 00:10:41.700 like arguments. And I couldn't really track energetically in my 178 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:43.860 body or in my mind that that was happening. I 179 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.820 was just lost in the pattern. And then as I 180 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.740 started to notice that pattern and also explore it with him, 181 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:53.039 I could catch it a little bit earlier and just 182 00:10:53.139 --> 00:10:56.669 feel maybe mid, not an argument as in a fight, 183 00:10:56.690 --> 00:10:58.950 but an argument as in a very intense discussion. I 184 00:10:59.450 --> 00:11:02.029 could feel that energy and just sort of observe it 185 00:11:02.110 --> 00:11:06.389 and allow it to dissipate. And now, more often than not, 186 00:11:06.529 --> 00:11:11.100 it doesn't even manifest into kind of trying to out-argue 187 00:11:11.629 --> 00:11:14.110 I'll notice that he says something that annoys me or 188 00:11:14.129 --> 00:11:18.909 I disagree with, and I can actually stop before I 189 00:11:18.990 --> 00:11:21.789 start this pattern of speech or this habit of arguing 190 00:11:22.309 --> 00:11:25.330 and just allow it to dissipate and disappear. And sometimes 191 00:11:25.509 --> 00:11:27.590 it's not even showing up as often as it used to. 192 00:11:27.610 --> 00:11:32.350 I imagine this is the fruit of formal meditation practice 193 00:11:32.389 --> 00:11:35.860 in some ways. You enter the dojo, the gym. of 194 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.879 formal meditation practice, you know, either seated or standing or 195 00:11:39.940 --> 00:11:41.820 lying down. And I know you like to meditate lying 196 00:11:41.860 --> 00:11:46.570 down and you watch your mind, including the stuff that's hard, 197 00:11:47.049 --> 00:11:51.309 probably mostly the stuff that's hard and practice over and 198 00:11:51.409 --> 00:11:54.929 over again, instead of rejecting it, welcoming it with some 199 00:11:55.009 --> 00:11:58.450 warmth and some non lack of judgment so that when 200 00:11:58.470 --> 00:12:01.940 it shows up, In that conversation with Freddie about, you know, 201 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:05.039 what's the best French restaurant in your section of Brooklyn 202 00:12:05.070 --> 00:12:08.289 or whatever, you're able to not follow the impulse to 203 00:12:08.330 --> 00:12:11.289 say something that's going to have 72 hours of negative 204 00:12:11.350 --> 00:12:12.730 consequences for your relationship. 205 00:12:13.509 --> 00:12:18.289 That's almost exactly right, except that Frederick's Italian and Danish 206 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:20.330 and he would never want to go to a French restaurant. Yeah. 207 00:12:22.889 --> 00:12:27.840 But

yes, it's so true that what we experience on 208 00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:31.919 the cushion is going to be ourselves in any moment. 209 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.720 Most of our thoughts are not original. A lot of 210 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:38.950 the habit patterns that we witness when we're in formal 211 00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:41.409 meditation are the same habit patterns we're going to bring 212 00:12:41.450 --> 00:12:45.809 into our lives. So for years, when I meditated, even 213 00:12:45.870 --> 00:12:48.629 on retreat, I would kind of play out arguments in 214 00:12:48.669 --> 00:12:51.899 my head. I'd have an argument with that person on 215 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:54.179 retreat who's been annoying me for the past few weeks 216 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.659 of retreat, or I would reimagine arguments I'd had in 217 00:12:57.700 --> 00:13:00.279 the past or invent ones that I might have in 218 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:04.330 the future. So that argumentative nature of mine is part 219 00:13:04.350 --> 00:13:07.889 of my patterning. It's part of my conditioning. So what 220 00:13:07.970 --> 00:13:10.350 we see in our formal practice is usually what we're 221 00:13:10.370 --> 00:13:16.580 carrying into our relational life, to work, to our family dynamics. 222 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:21.970 I'm a baby at this kind of, you know, for 223 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.889 lack of a less syrupy term, self-love, especially when compared 224 00:13:27.149 --> 00:13:32.129 with you. But mindfulness practice, and this is just my experience, 225 00:13:32.149 --> 00:13:35.350 just straight up mindfulness practice where you follow the breath or, 226 00:13:35.370 --> 00:13:37.470 you know, you're watching the breath coming in and going out. 227 00:13:37.509 --> 00:13:41.549 And then every time you get distracted, start again. There 228 00:13:41.570 --> 00:13:43.669 are other ways to do straight up mindfulness practice, but 229 00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:49.809 that kind of practice didn't get me as far in 230 00:13:49.850 --> 00:13:56.169 this regard as metta practice, where you're using phrases, may 231 00:13:56.190 --> 00:13:58.879 you be happy, et cetera, et cetera, and directing it 232 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:02.480 toward a variety of beings, including yourself. Is that your 233 00:14:02.500 --> 00:14:03.120 experience as well? 234 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:08.519 You know, I think that there's parts of what you're 235 00:14:08.570 --> 00:14:14.059 saying that I can relate to, especially towards myself. So 236 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:16.960 it might be because I'm gendered this way or racialized 237 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:21.659 this way, but my metta towards other people was maybe 238 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:24.379 unhealthily so, but quite developed in the sense that I 239 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.200 was always taught to take care of other people and 240 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.110 think about other people first. But really what I had 241 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.250 to practice in terms of metta was self metta. And 242 00:14:34.269 --> 00:14:36.230 I had a teacher who actually assigned it to me 243 00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:39.970 as my primary practice for six months. So I only 244 00:14:40.029 --> 00:14:43.340 did self metta for six months. This was after my 245 00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:46.019 first cancer diagnosis, and it was really challenging for me 246 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.779 to make that my full practice. But that I found 247 00:14:49.970 --> 00:14:53.049 really helpful. But I also think that there is a 248 00:14:53.490 --> 00:14:57.769 way in which maybe modern mindfulness or kind of the 249 00:14:58.149 --> 00:15:04.149 Western mind approach to mindfulness forgets to imbue our mindfulness 250 00:15:04.190 --> 00:15:09.159 practice with that kindness. And technically, as far as the 251 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:14.389 classical teachings say, mindfulness always co-arises with metta. If it doesn't, 252 00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:18.950 it's actually just paying attention. It's not true mindfulness. And 253 00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:22.450 we've talked about this before, Dan, that that attentional quality, 254 00:15:22.490 --> 00:15:26.549 like paying attention of mindfulness is really important, but that 255 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:32.320 meeting with whatever we see with kindness and care is 256 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.940 that metta that arises with mindfulness. And in moments where 257 00:15:36.629 --> 00:15:39.049 I was just kind of applying the classical teachings of 258 00:15:39.110 --> 00:15:42.470 mindfulness of just bringing awareness, but I was doing it 259 00:15:42.529 --> 00:15:46.929 in such a way that was very present, very receptive, 260 00:15:47.549 --> 00:15:52.029 not imbued with my tendencies for striving or trying to 261 00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:56.379 get somewhere. That meta naturally arose. It really, that feeling 262 00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:58.509 of mindfulness that is all caring. 263 00:15:58.529 --> 00:16:06.440 This brings us to another paradox that you'd write about 264 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:13.019 which is that you have to study the self, I 265 00:16:13.059 --> 00:16:16.080 believe you said, in order to forget the self. Do 266 00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:16.600 I have that right? 267 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:22.230 Yeah, that's Dogen. So not me, a Zen master and 268 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:27.110 originator of the Soto School of Zen. So to study 269 00:16:27.129 --> 00:16:29.669 the buddha way, he said, is to study the self. 270 00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:31.669 And to study the self is to forget the self. 271 00:16:32.490 --> 00:16:35.070 And to forget the self is to become one with 272 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:40.250 myriad things, with all things. And that is a paradoxical 273 00:16:40.429 --> 00:16:46.090 kind of Kohan-ish saying, but in practice, I think we 274 00:16:46.129 --> 00:16:49.070 can have glimpses of that, that when we are fully 275 00:16:49.110 --> 00:16:52.370

present like that, I remember the first time I experienced 276 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:56.990 mindfulness as being imbued with this metta or loving kindness. 277 00:16:57.110 --> 00:17:01.039 I was on retreat at IMS and this moment of 278 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.240 this full awareness, like embodied awareness of the present moment 279 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.759 and this feeling of kindness, of caring just kind of 280 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:13.200 welled up. And it wasn't about me. It just sort 281 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:17.480 of permeated everything around me. I kind of looked around 282 00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:19.579 me at that moment and looked at the hall and 283 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:22.119 the other people and it just filled with so much 284 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:23.700 care and in my awareness. 285 00:17:26.140 --> 00:17:26.339 Right. 286 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:30.579 And so that is how we get to I'm just 287 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:33.299 looking for you to correct my understanding here. That I 288 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.319 think is how we when we can start seeing that 289 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:43.779 we can heal whatever separations, little wars we've got going 290 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:48.450 on internally, then that opens the door to this feeling 291 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:52.769 of connection and belonging to the whole world, all of it. 292 00:17:54.069 --> 00:17:57.750 Yes, on a deep level, yes. And most of the 293 00:17:57.789 --> 00:18:00.329 time in our daily meditation practice, we might not be 294 00:18:00.369 --> 00:18:04.630 feeling that. So we can know that as a possibility. 295 00:18:04.710 --> 00:18:08.250 We can recognize maybe small glimpses of it. And it 296 00:18:08.269 --> 00:18:10.470 doesn't even have to be only in formal meditation. It 297 00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:13.210 could be a moment of presence with our child or 298 00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:18.069 in nature. But we can start to be attuned to 299 00:18:18.109 --> 00:18:19.289 that possibility. 300 00:18:21.210 --> 00:18:24.049 One of the little things It's not very little in 301 00:18:24.089 --> 00:18:26.450 my case, at least. One of the wars that you 302 00:18:26.509 --> 00:18:30.180 identify that you've seen raging in your own mind, and 303 00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:32.359 I see raging a lot in my own, is you 304 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.680 use this phrase, the pathology of productivity. 305 00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:40.819 Yeah, that's a coach I've worked with, Chela Davison, it's 306 00:18:40.859 --> 00:18:43.539 her phrase. And, you know, when I heard it, it 307 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:47.869 was one of those phrases that is like embarrassingly apt 308 00:18:48.589 --> 00:18:50.930 that I could identify with it so much, but I 309 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:54.130 felt a lot of shame about that too. because I 310 00:18:54.650 --> 00:18:57.869 see how I can use productivity as a way to 311 00:18:58.549 --> 00:19:02.269 basically try and belong, try and feel better about myself, 312 00:19:02.349 --> 00:19:06.069 to try and feel like I'm making progress in some 313 00:19:06.109 --> 00:19:09.710 way in my life, in my career, in my meditation practice, 314 00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:12.819 whatever it is. But it does become a pathology. It 315 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:17.019 becomes the way I kind of measure how well I'm 316 00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:19.779 doing or not. And it's a big trap. And I 317 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:23.619 think with all of us kind of more attached to 318 00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:26.740 our gadgets than ever, I know for me, it's been 319 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:29.339 creeping up a lot more. I have to take really 320 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:34.359 concerted effort to make breaks and to create time where 321 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:37.420 I'm not being productive. And that includes my meditation practice, 322 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:38.819 that that's not the goal. 323 00:19:41.170 --> 00:19:47.289 Any advice? This is a huge theme in my inner life. 324 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:55.289 I really have had to keep coming back to boundaries, 325 00:19:55.789 --> 00:20:00.410 especially with technology. And it's so hard right now because 326 00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:04.130 we're in another paradox that this is the thing that 327 00:20:04.329 --> 00:20:09.930 maybe is connecting us to teachings, connecting us to others, 328 00:20:10.190 --> 00:20:13.849 giving us a place to practice or a way to 329 00:20:14.049 --> 00:20:16.660 tune in to things that we find important. But it's 330 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:20.480 such a slippery slope. Each of these devices can bring 331 00:20:20.539 --> 00:20:25.019 us closer into just opening up another app or my 332 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:28.410 tendency is to go on to Instagram or Twitter or 333 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:33.460 New York Times homepage. And so how do we create 334 00:20:33.579 --> 00:20:38.119 boundaries while also using this technology to support us in 335 00:20:38.329 --> 00:20:41.750 our aspirations to have more space? And then sometimes we 336 00:20:41.809 --> 00:20:44.609 just have to turn it off. We just have to 337 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:49.849 leave the phone in another room or go outside without 338 00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:54.160 your gadgets. And that can be fraught too, because sometimes, 339 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.339 I think we spoke about this on the episode about race. 340 00:20:57.460 --> 00:21:01.210 We witnessed a racial aggression, and we couldn't document it 341 00:21:01.589 --> 00:21:04.500 between police and some Black youth in our neighborhood because 342 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:06.359 we had left our phones at home because we were 343 00:21:06.380 --> 00:21:09.779 trying to create more space. So there are choices to 344 00:21:09.819 --> 00:21:12.000 be made and consequences for those choices too. 345 00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:16.079 How are you doing these days? And I know this 346 00:21:16.099 --> 00:21:18.349 is something we've talked

about, but it's been a few months. 347 00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:22.009 How are you doing these days on feelings of belonging 348 00:21:23.849 --> 00:21:27.230 when it comes to America's racial reckoning that's happening right now? 349 00:21:29.890 --> 00:21:36.119 You know, it's definitely a process. I have really relished 350 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:39.619 the time to have spaces for people of color and 351 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:44.240 for Black people and to have specific spaces to practice 352 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:48.069 together and process together. And I know you've advocated for 353 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:50.069 this and there are a lot of white people doing 354 00:21:50.109 --> 00:21:57.390 the same. And at the same time, I... really value 355 00:21:57.549 --> 00:22:02.670 places where we're not only talking about these realities. And 356 00:22:02.690 --> 00:22:05.690 this is kind of how we can sway between those 357 00:22:05.769 --> 00:22:09.509 two paradoxes. And they're both true that we are different. 358 00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:13.799 We have these different realities, these different histories. They come 359 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:19.089 with issues of inequality and oppression and injustice. And we 360 00:22:19.150 --> 00:22:23.309 are all interconnected and not just humans. We're interconnected with 361 00:22:23.390 --> 00:22:27.410 all beings, with all of nature. We are nature. And 362 00:22:27.950 --> 00:22:31.859 depending on where we're coming from, what our tendencies are, 363 00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:35.240 what our aversions and graspings are, we can want to 364 00:22:35.299 --> 00:22:38.059 lean towards one or the other more. So some people 365 00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:40.119 want to kind of cling to the harmony of, oh, 366 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:42.180 we're all one. Do we have to deal with this 367 00:22:42.339 --> 00:22:45.519 difficulty and challenge? But we can also want to cling 368 00:22:45.619 --> 00:22:47.920 to kind of the complexity and the difficulty and get 369 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.480 caught there, maybe because it's our work or our calling. 370 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:56.140 But I have had sort of a longing for the 371 00:22:56.180 --> 00:23:00.779 practices and the teachings that really helped me balance out 372 00:23:00.859 --> 00:23:02.700 all of that complexity and difference too. 373 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.569 So sometimes you want to engage in the complexity and 374 00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:13.190 be really be hashing these issues out, which are painful, 375 00:23:13.230 --> 00:23:17.029 but also invigorating. And sometimes you want to be on 376 00:23:17.569 --> 00:23:25.170 a more placid, some fundamental level. We're all deeply connected 377 00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:27.299 and you want to be in that space. 378 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:29.839 Yeah. And, you know, I don't even know if it's 379 00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:35.829 placid so much as the truth of non-separation is It's 380 00:23:35.950 --> 00:23:39.809 spacious to me more than placid. You know, it's really, 381 00:23:40.009 --> 00:23:43.450 it has a freedom about it that is, it can 382 00:23:43.490 --> 00:23:47.589 feel really alive too. It doesn't necessarily have to feel calm, 383 00:23:48.369 --> 00:23:52.710 but there's that truth of interconnection. And again, we really 384 00:23:52.779 --> 00:23:55.740 need to each of us look at where we tend 385 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:59.920 to gravitate towards, which we understand and which we maybe don't. 386 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.779 And it's that constant balancing. 387 00:24:04.900 --> 00:24:10.599 You've been using this phrase in talking about what's been 388 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:13.339 happening for the last few months. You've been using this phrase, 389 00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.640 the revolution will not be secularized. What do you mean 390 00:24:16.660 --> 00:24:17.039 by that? 391 00:24:19.220 --> 00:24:22.619 So in this book, I do a bit of a 392 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:28.890 dive into our tendency as moderns to hold up science 393 00:24:29.230 --> 00:24:35.279 as the arbiter of all truth. and dismiss things that 394 00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.920 are less verifiable in ways that we're comfortable with. And 395 00:24:41.660 --> 00:24:44.200 with that, I think we've thrown some babies out with 396 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:49.769 that bathwater. So there are a lot of mysteries to 397 00:24:50.670 --> 00:24:55.250 these practices and to the truth of our interconnection. So 398 00:24:55.349 --> 00:25:00.559 even science, physics being one, can't really explain some things 399 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:06.880 that are known to be true, like the fact that 400 00:25:07.420 --> 00:25:11.539 electrons separated can experience the same reality. So what affects 401 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.359 one will affect the other far away. And we're talking 402 00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:16.380 about a few meters away. We're talking about thousands of 403 00:25:16.420 --> 00:25:20.099 miles away. They're doing this experiments now. And the truth 404 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.549 of that kind of vibrating pulse of energy at the 405 00:25:23.589 --> 00:25:28.009 source of all matter, the truth that we all, everything 406 00:25:28.049 --> 00:25:31.910 in our universe originated from a tiny, tiny point that's 407 00:25:32.509 --> 00:25:36.819 infinitesimally small. We can't even fathom it. So everything originated 408 00:25:36.859 --> 00:25:41.000 from nothing. We're literally stardust. So all of those mysteries 409 00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:48.119 are not explainable by measurements or brain scans and the 410 00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:53.119 mysteries of the body, of consciousness. And in some ways, 411 00:25:53.390 --> 00:25:58.210 this reliance on science and data and experiments has infiltrated 412 00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:00.789 the way we think of our social reality too and 413 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:04.170 how we're going to you know, solve our problems is

414 00:26:04.359 --> 00:26:08.900 only through kind of logic and reason. And I believe 415 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:13.599 that there's more to things like meta or heart practices, 416 00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:18.200 which are basically like magical thinking. You know, we, we 417 00:26:18.259 --> 00:26:21.369 sit and wish well to other people who aren't with us. 418 00:26:21.529 --> 00:26:24.049 And we know this has a powerful effect on, on 419 00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:26.910 our bodies. That's been able to be verified and studied. 420 00:26:27.690 --> 00:26:31.589 But do we believe that maybe this is having a 421 00:26:31.630 --> 00:26:34.670 powerful effect on other bodies and other people and beings 422 00:26:34.750 --> 00:26:35.130 as well? 423 00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:39.750 So when you say the revolution will not be secularized, 424 00:26:39.809 --> 00:26:42.349 is that in any way a critique of the current 425 00:26:42.470 --> 00:26:43.730 BLM movement? 426 00:26:44.970 --> 00:26:48.289 No, actually, I think the BLM movement itself is well 427 00:26:48.329 --> 00:26:51.990 aware of this. And a lot of movements that come 428 00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:54.589 out of communities of color, you know, we always point 429 00:26:54.670 --> 00:26:58.329 to these these sort of powerful leaders throughout time, like 430 00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:03.359 Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi or Desmond Tutu, these 431 00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:06.460 are all spiritual leaders. They also happen to be people 432 00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:10.720 of color. So perhaps much more rooted in the truth 433 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:16.049 of indigenous wisdom, which relies on more than just the 434 00:27:16.089 --> 00:27:22.670 material reality. So prayer and meditation and this understanding of 435 00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:27.329 non-separation has been the ground of many spiritual movements and 436 00:27:28.109 --> 00:27:31.630 many people and parts of BLM are very connected to 437 00:27:31.650 --> 00:27:32.170 that as well. 438 00:27:33.650 --> 00:27:35.990 Just picking up on some of the strands from the 439 00:27:36.049 --> 00:27:41.079 last two answers of yours, the book really mounts a 440 00:27:41.299 --> 00:27:47.380 compelling defense of what people like me sometimes I now 441 00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:51.740 see somewhat inappropriately write off as quote-unquote woo-woo. 442 00:27:54.099 --> 00:27:59.970 Yes. So I kind of go through a conversation about 443 00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:02.670 how we can question woo-woo. And I use the phrase 444 00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:05.950 woo-woo too. I'm not trying to police people's language that 445 00:28:05.990 --> 00:28:09.240 they can't use that. But just to notice when we 446 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:13.410 use that, what we're dismissing and how often... those dismissals 447 00:28:13.509 --> 00:28:19.150 run along the same lines as a lot of indigenous 448 00:28:19.269 --> 00:28:24.549 ways of knowing, which often are very much rooted in 449 00:28:24.849 --> 00:28:30.599 an acknowledgement of mystery. And the great mystery is part 450 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.680 of the understanding of our reality. So there's a real 451 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:40.559 connection to this absolute truth of interconnection that is not, um, 452 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:47.269 not necessarily recognizable by our ordinary senses. So one of 453 00:28:47.309 --> 00:28:49.430 the things I didn't talk about really in the book, 454 00:28:49.450 --> 00:28:51.069 because it was happening while I was writing it, but 455 00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:55.369 I was doing a lot of kind of ancestral practices 456 00:28:55.490 --> 00:28:58.480 when I was writing the book. So every morning I would, 457 00:28:58.500 --> 00:29:00.539 I have a lot of ancestor altars, but I have 458 00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:03.670 a main ancestor altar that with pictures of my mom 459 00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:07.670 and my grandparents and other people who've passed away. And 460 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:10.589 I would sort of light candles and make offerings to 461 00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:15.190 that altar before I wrote every morning and basically almost 462 00:29:15.269 --> 00:29:16.390 bully them into helping me. 463 00:29:20.190 --> 00:29:24.319 I find that notion challenging in an interesting way. What 464 00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.259 do you reckon it did for you to make offerings 465 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.359 on an altar of pictures and of your forebears? 466 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:39.910 You know, a lot of creative people and writers have rituals. 467 00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:42.799 So part of it was just having a ritual that 468 00:29:42.859 --> 00:29:47.119 helped sort of frame my writing process and gave some 469 00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.710 structure to my process. I would wake up very early. 470 00:29:49.730 --> 00:29:51.710 I would make a cup of matcha. I would come in. 471 00:29:51.769 --> 00:29:55.309 I would light some incense and light the candles and 472 00:29:55.710 --> 00:29:58.109 sort of say a little desperate prayer to them. And 473 00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:00.680 then I would start writing. And then when I finished writing, 474 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:02.759 I would blow out the candles and, you know, know 475 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.720 that it's done. So having that kind of ritual for 476 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.849 our particular processes, whether they're creative or just daily general life, 477 00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:15.930 I think is helpful. And then, you know, really exploring 478 00:30:16.390 --> 00:30:20.690 this truth that our ancestors are with us. if we 479 00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:23.670 don't believe it on a kind of woo-woo energetic, they're 480 00:30:23.849 --> 00:30:27.230 all around us in another dimension kind of way, we 481 00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:30.470 know it on a scientific and fundamental level, right? So 482 00:30:30.490 --> 00:30:34.799 we not only inherit our physical genetic material from our

ancestors, 483 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:38.759 so your ancestors are literally inside you because you have 484 00:30:38.859 --> 00:30:41.700 certain color skin and eyes and you have a certain 485 00:30:41.740 --> 00:30:45.359 shape of your body. But we also know that epigenetic 486 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:52.200 material is handed down. So certain... experiences and tendencies, including anxieties, 487 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:56.319 but also our strengths, our predilections, and our ways of 488 00:30:56.380 --> 00:31:00.500 being are also inherited. And so in a sense, our 489 00:31:00.579 --> 00:31:02.220 ancestors are here anyways. 490 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:08.029 I guess one area where I struggle with this is 491 00:31:08.049 --> 00:31:11.630 just personal, which is the more I know about my ancestors, 492 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:14.930 at least the ones I knew and now know more about, 493 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.200 I look back at my family tree is just filled 494 00:31:18.259 --> 00:31:22.740 with addicts and crooks and cranks. And so like the 495 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.440 idea of summoning them, I don't know what assistance they 496 00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:27.319 could provide. 497 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:31.440 Well, you know, we call on the best of our ancestors. 498 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:35.930 So sometimes people say our wise and well ancestors, but 499 00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:40.170 I say the wisdom and wellness of our, all our ancestors, right? 500 00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:44.670 Because you inherited maybe some of those tendencies that were, 501 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:49.230 seem like, and probably were unskillful behavior, but were probably 502 00:31:49.299 --> 00:31:53.559 just survival mechanisms, right? But you also inherited a lot 503 00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:59.299 of great aspects. You know, you're a successful, intelligent, kind, 504 00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:03.450 good person. And some of those strengths came through from 505 00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:06.569 your ancestors as well, because all of our ancestors survived 506 00:32:07.289 --> 00:32:10.529 if we're here, right? Our ancestors got far enough so 507 00:32:10.569 --> 00:32:13.490 that we are alive today. And that means they survived 508 00:32:13.569 --> 00:32:18.039 pandemics and you know, intercultural strife and war and all 509 00:32:18.059 --> 00:32:20.240 of the things we're trying to survive today. So we 510 00:32:20.259 --> 00:32:22.380 can call on that as well. 511 00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.359 I had a lot of great ancestors, too, just for 512 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:29.170 the record. Complicated ones. Somebody was telling me recently about 513 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:31.210 a great uncle of mine who used to drive around 514 00:32:31.250 --> 00:32:34.130 with a clergy sign in his window so he could 515 00:32:34.150 --> 00:32:38.579 get free parking spaces. Well, you know, suffice it to 516 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:39.960 say a member of the clergy. 517 00:32:41.859 --> 00:32:44.440 Yeah, you could say that's it. You got your cunning 518 00:32:44.500 --> 00:32:44.900 from him. 519 00:32:45.609 --> 00:32:50.130 I guess so. Much more of my conversation with Sabine 520 00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:57.670 Selassie right after this. So speaking of me, there is 521 00:32:57.710 --> 00:33:01.069 a little this little section in here where you write 522 00:33:01.109 --> 00:33:05.119 about a debate we had about the use of the 523 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.380 term white supremacy. You want to you want to say 524 00:33:07.420 --> 00:33:07.859 more about that? 525 00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:10.980 Yeah, I hope you like that little shout out, Cammy, 526 00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:11.880 that you got in the book. 527 00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:14.400 It wasn't the most flattering shout out, but go ahead. 528 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.480 Well, you know, it's interesting because I think I shared 529 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:21.569 this with you that for the final pass of the book, 530 00:33:21.589 --> 00:33:24.750 I had to change that part a bit because, you know, 531 00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:27.890 the use of white supremacy has probably increased like a 532 00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:31.089 thousand fold in the past few months. What felt kind 533 00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:34.130 of daring to talk about six months ago is like 534 00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:37.789 old hat now that every corporation is tweeting Black Lives Matter. 535 00:33:38.619 --> 00:33:41.460 So I started to, in what's the final version of 536 00:33:41.500 --> 00:33:45.109 the book, you know, really explore what it means to 537 00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:49.269 maybe be able to acknowledge white supremacy externally in institutions 538 00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:53.450 or in about white supremacists, but not really want to 539 00:33:53.509 --> 00:33:57.230 explore it internally as patterns of thought or behavior that 540 00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.420 are playing out consciously or unconsciously within us. 541 00:34:01.539 --> 00:34:03.960 Just to be clear, so that I remember where you 542 00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:06.980 and I were sitting in Rosa Mexicana the it's just 543 00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:09.739 a chain of Mexican restaurants in New York City. And 544 00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:12.409 you were talking about white supremacy. And I raised the issue. 545 00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:15.630 This is way before, you know, the recent tumult. This 546 00:34:15.690 --> 00:34:20.650 is before the pandemic, before George Floyd, Breonna Taylor. And 547 00:34:21.269 --> 00:34:23.699 I raised the question, and I think I've read an 548 00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:26.320 earlier version of the book than the one that's coming out. 549 00:34:26.340 --> 00:34:29.579 But I remember saying, you know, is there some risk 550 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.679 to you to using the term white supremacy? Because Some 551 00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:35.639 of the people that you'd like to reach might get 552 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:38.110

confused by that and or put off by that. And 553 00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:40.469 then you've activated their amygdala and you won't be able 554 00:34:40.489 --> 00:34:41.070 to talk to them. 555 00:34:42.289 --> 00:34:44.369 Yes. It was also back when we used to go 556 00:34:44.409 --> 00:34:48.429 to restaurants. Yes. And, you know, let's be clear, it's 557 00:34:48.590 --> 00:34:52.550 white people we're talking about. And I do address that directly, 558 00:34:53.030 --> 00:34:56.510 sort of imploring the white reader and maybe anyone else 559 00:34:56.550 --> 00:34:59.309 who is uncomfortable with the term to to really stay 560 00:34:59.349 --> 00:35:02.449 with me in why this is really important to understand 561 00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:07.710 because these structures of white supremacy and other biases are 562 00:35:07.769 --> 00:35:12.269 within us. And this process of mindfulness of really beginning 563 00:35:12.329 --> 00:35:16.699 to understand, see clearly and meet with kindness, what's going 564 00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:19.039 on in our minds, what's going on in our hearts, 565 00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:22.059 that is the process for releasing it. And we can't 566 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:28.210 solve the issue of internalized oppression or, white supremacy, depending 567 00:35:28.289 --> 00:35:30.929 who we are and how we're experiencing it, if we 568 00:35:31.110 --> 00:35:34.269 can't see it clearly. And naming it is a first 569 00:35:34.309 --> 00:35:35.110 step to seeing it. 570 00:35:35.969 --> 00:35:38.650 And very helpfully, I mean, this is totally consonant with 571 00:35:38.690 --> 00:35:40.309 just how you are and how I know you as 572 00:35:40.349 --> 00:35:41.889 a person, but it definitely comes through in the book. 573 00:35:42.309 --> 00:35:45.730 You turn the lens on yourself and your own flaws 574 00:35:46.289 --> 00:35:48.579 in a welcoming way and that you I'll let you 575 00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:51.139 tell the story, but you tell a story in the 576 00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:55.139 book about your older sister's doctor. Can you tell that story? 577 00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:59.539 Oh, yeah. So my sister, who's intellectually disabled, I'm her guardian, 578 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.519 was having surgery. And I had heard about this doctor 579 00:36:03.820 --> 00:36:07.659 that she was having perform the surgery because her house 580 00:36:07.699 --> 00:36:09.639 leader had told me about her and said she was 581 00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:12.489 really great. And so I got to the hospital up 582 00:36:13.050 --> 00:36:17.210 in Hudson, waiting for this doctor in the pre-op room 583 00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:22.699 with only white doctors and nurses and technicians except for 584 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.860 one Filipino nurse. And then the doctor walked in, the surgeon, 585 00:36:27.260 --> 00:36:29.739 and she was a black woman, a dark-skinned black woman. 586 00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:32.440 And I was totally shocked. I knew she was a 587 00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.639 woman because they had referred to her as she, but 588 00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:37.050 I was assuming that I would meet a white person. 589 00:36:38.090 --> 00:36:40.969 And so I could see my own bias of how 590 00:36:41.050 --> 00:36:45.179 kind of these messages of white supremacy were the doctors 591 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:47.809 are white and often, you know, in the past we 592 00:36:47.849 --> 00:36:51.730 would think male, had sort of infiltrated my own heart 593 00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:55.980 and mind. And, you know, embarrassingly for someone who teaches 594 00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:59.039 unconscious bias all the time to see that playing out 595 00:36:59.059 --> 00:37:01.199 for myself. And I don't know if I shared in 596 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:04.050 the book because, you know, I was cutting things for space, 597 00:37:04.110 --> 00:37:07.559 but The next day when Funnet was in the hospital, 598 00:37:07.579 --> 00:37:09.780 I stayed overnight with her in the hospital. I was 599 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.760 waiting for the, it was the weekend. So the surgeon 600 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.030 was off and she told us another doctor was coming 601 00:37:15.050 --> 00:37:17.449 and I didn't know the gender or the race of 602 00:37:17.489 --> 00:37:19.530 this doctor. So I was just, you know, I didn't, 603 00:37:19.690 --> 00:37:22.369 I didn't know. I just knew the name. And that 604 00:37:22.409 --> 00:37:24.690 was also a black woman. And I also was surprised 605 00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:32.219 in that moment. So I'm not only slow, I'm super slow. Yeah. 606 00:37:36.260 --> 00:37:39.139 Let's talk about another area. And again, just staying with 607 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:42.630 this theme of belonging where one big aspect of it 608 00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:49.030 is having this healed relationship with yourself so that you 609 00:37:49.070 --> 00:37:55.139 can be connected with other people. God, it's reminding me, 610 00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:56.400 I don't know if I've ever told this story in 611 00:37:56.420 --> 00:37:59.719 the podcast before. I remember being like 25 years old, 612 00:37:59.739 --> 00:38:05.380 maybe even younger. And I was having the dissolution of 613 00:38:05.429 --> 00:38:09.780 a relationship discussion with a about to be former girlfriend. 614 00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:13.280 And I remember her saying to me, you can't be 615 00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:17.480 with anybody if you're not with yourself. And that that 616 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:19.320 was coming up for me as I was reading this book. 617 00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:22.900 And one sort of this may seem a little counterintuitive, 618 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:26.690 but it really landed for me. But one area that 619 00:38:26.769 --> 00:38:31.329 you talk about here is dancing as a mode to 620 00:38:31.369 --> 00:38:35.710 sort of get ourselves in this direction. How is dancing related? 621 00:38:35.730 --> 00:38:42.239 Yeah, we took this vast

teaching in the classical teachings 622 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:46.530 called sati and we called it mindfulness, which in some 623 00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:48.949 ways is a great term. In other ways, it makes 624 00:38:49.030 --> 00:38:52.110 us think that it's all about our heads. So one 625 00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:55.010 of the things I really point to in my own 626 00:38:55.050 --> 00:39:00.590 teachings and really try and practice is how embodied our 627 00:39:00.639 --> 00:39:04.400 disconnection is and how we're only going to become reconnected 628 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:09.239 and free through these bodies. So dance is one place 629 00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:13.769 for me to really see how unfree I am. some 630 00:39:13.829 --> 00:39:16.769 people in our culture, especially those of us who are 631 00:39:16.789 --> 00:39:21.219 kind of more conditioned by the dominant culture and white culture, 632 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:25.099 we are not so connected to our bodies and we 633 00:39:25.300 --> 00:39:28.329 have difficulty with dance. Like a lot of people, I'm 634 00:39:29.110 --> 00:39:32.920 uncomfortable or was much more so in the past dancing 635 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:35.400 in public. I really didn't have a sense of my 636 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:39.780 body dancing. I didn't grow up dancing and talk about 637 00:39:39.860 --> 00:39:43.599 kind of the colonial influences that led to that in 638 00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.050 my own family, in my own lineage. But many people 639 00:39:47.130 --> 00:39:50.869 grow up in churches or in religious traditions that kind 640 00:39:50.909 --> 00:39:54.840 of dismiss or discourage dancing and how that really disconnects 641 00:39:54.909 --> 00:39:58.179 us from our bodies and from a sense of belonging. 642 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:01.380 Like how ridiculous is it that I'm embarrassed to be 643 00:40:01.460 --> 00:40:03.960 in my own body and moving my own body in 644 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.679 front of other people? Like it sounds absurd when I 645 00:40:06.739 --> 00:40:09.690 state it that way, but I think that's a reality 646 00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:13.349 that many people, and again, people who might be cultured 647 00:40:13.449 --> 00:40:16.940 or or influenced in a particular way by dominant culture 648 00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:19.409 can feel that, you know, like not wanting to be 649 00:40:19.429 --> 00:40:21.789 the first person on the dance floor, don't want anybody 650 00:40:21.829 --> 00:40:25.090 to look at them. And we see how different it 651 00:40:25.210 --> 00:40:28.409 is for people who don't have that patterning yet, especially children. 652 00:40:28.429 --> 00:40:31.590 This is a nut that I've not even begun to crack. 653 00:40:31.670 --> 00:40:34.389 I mean, I watch my son and how free he 654 00:40:34.489 --> 00:40:37.349 is when he's dancing. And last night, actually, we were 655 00:40:37.409 --> 00:40:42.250 with my brother. I have one brother and he and 656 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:45.929 his wife have six kids. Beautiful kids. It was just incredible. 657 00:40:46.090 --> 00:40:49.139 And there was after dinner, the kids were dancing for 658 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.480 us and we were dancing a little bit with them. 659 00:40:51.500 --> 00:40:53.340 But I noticed that when it was my time to 660 00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:57.659 get up and dance with them, I felt very watched, self-conscious. 661 00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.280 But I want to be able to shed that. And 662 00:41:01.300 --> 00:41:02.960 this is why you and I have been talking for years. 663 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.269 We haven't been able to get our acts together. Well, 664 00:41:05.309 --> 00:41:07.949 mostly my fault. for me to come out to Brooklyn 665 00:41:08.010 --> 00:41:10.579 to do Zumba with you, which we've been talking about 666 00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:12.739 for a long time and we're about to do actually, 667 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:14.480 I think right before the pandemic began. 668 00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:16.159 And I think we have a date. 669 00:41:17.059 --> 00:41:19.260 Yeah, we had a date to do this. And so, yeah, 670 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:22.800 this seems like a really rich area of exploration for me, 671 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:23.159 at least. 672 00:41:24.340 --> 00:41:26.550 Well, first of all, I think we should film that 673 00:41:26.610 --> 00:41:29.690 when it happens and make it a special video episode 674 00:41:29.730 --> 00:41:30.530 of the podcast. 675 00:41:30.849 --> 00:41:32.530 Well, then I won't be self-conscious at all. 676 00:41:34.190 --> 00:41:38.389 But, you know, it's like anything, right? It's practice. And 677 00:41:38.449 --> 00:41:41.659 so often, you know, we practice on our own. That's 678 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:44.559 what we're doing in meditation, right? We're trying to bring mindfulness. 679 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:49.900 We eliminate the distractions. We eliminate the extraneous realities to 680 00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:53.320 sort of practice something. So you could practice in your 681 00:41:53.340 --> 00:41:55.639 bedroom and even Bianca doesn't have to be there. 682 00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:01.190 This is on my list and not on a long list, 683 00:42:01.510 --> 00:42:03.650 on a short list of things that I aim to 684 00:42:03.690 --> 00:42:08.539 do in the not too distant future. You recommend a 685 00:42:08.579 --> 00:42:11.199 lot of practices. Do you want to talk about a 686 00:42:11.260 --> 00:42:13.659 few that you think would help us? 687 00:42:15.030 --> 00:42:19.070 My favorite practice and one that I'm trying to spread 688 00:42:19.829 --> 00:42:24.030 is the practice of the four elements. So mindfulness of 689 00:42:24.070 --> 00:42:28.070 the four elements is a traditional and classical practice. It's 690 00:42:28.170 --> 00:42:31.539 right there in the first foundation of mindfulness with mindfulness 691 00:42:31.579 --> 00:42:35.190 of breath, with mindfulness of body, And it's not really 692

00:42:35.230 --> 00:42:40.130 taught a lot in kind of Western mindfulness movements. And 693 00:42:40.269 --> 00:42:45.590 to me, it's such a beautiful metaphor for how we 694 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.579 are interconnected and how we are nature. You know, we 695 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:51.659 sort of talk about nature like it's out there in 696 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.179 the woods, you know, far away from the city, but 697 00:42:54.219 --> 00:42:58.980 we are nature. And this simple metaphor of earth, fire, water, 698 00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:02.539 and air, which are the four elements we are mindful 699 00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:05.550 of in our bodies, It's a metaphor for how we're 700 00:43:05.590 --> 00:43:09.090 made of the same stuff of everything around us and 701 00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:11.699 that we're not separate from that. And to me, it's 702 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.380 such a beautiful practice and connects us also to all 703 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:18.860 these indigenous ways of knowing that have been dismissed, have 704 00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:23.320 been kind of considered woo-woo because the elements are in 705 00:43:23.780 --> 00:43:31.800 every ancient tradition of every continent. So ancient Greece, Chinese medicine, Ayurveda, Qigong. 706 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.000 You have it in the indigenous teachings of the Americas, 707 00:43:36.219 --> 00:43:41.500 in Africa, in ancient Egypt, and Australia. And so it's 708 00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.300 also a way to come really into contact with that 709 00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:49.699 ancient knowing of our interconnection. And I was so excited 710 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.300 a couple of years ago, 10% happier, let me record 711 00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:57.380 an elements meditation, which seemed woo-woo probably. back then, but 712 00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:58.719 hopefully it'll become the norm now. 713 00:43:59.780 --> 00:44:03.119 This notion of we are nature has really struck me 714 00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:05.039 over the past couple of years. And I like to 715 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.730 use it all the time, the idea, because it does 716 00:44:07.929 --> 00:44:11.690 dissolve the boundaries between me and the rest of the world. 717 00:44:12.550 --> 00:44:14.789 But I'm particularly like using it when I'm looking at 718 00:44:15.190 --> 00:44:21.260 the uglier or sillier, more craven aspects of my nature. Well, 719 00:44:21.739 --> 00:44:22.880 this is just nature too. 720 00:44:22.900 --> 00:44:28.340 Yes. Yes. And those craven aspects even can be elemental. 721 00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:30.969 Like there can be a fiery quality to some of 722 00:44:31.070 --> 00:44:33.909 our anger. There can be a watery quality to our 723 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:37.510 depression or our weepiness. And so we don't even have 724 00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:40.670 to make it sort of personal or psychological. We can 725 00:44:40.690 --> 00:44:43.309 just see that these energies are moving through us all 726

00:44:43.329 --> 00:44:43.710 the time. 727 00:44:45.489 --> 00:44:46.739 What did I fail to ask? 728 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:52.880 I would just want to encourage us all to explore 729 00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:57.360 this balancing, you know, that We can tend as moderns 730 00:44:57.420 --> 00:45:02.019 again to dismiss the mystery. That's such a powerful, powerful 731 00:45:02.780 --> 00:45:06.840 opportunity for us to feel into something that is true 732 00:45:06.929 --> 00:45:10.829 and sometimes inaccessible again with our ordinary senses. And then 733 00:45:10.889 --> 00:45:14.530 we can also get lost in that and not want 734 00:45:14.570 --> 00:45:17.329 to deal with the complexities of the truth of our 735 00:45:17.369 --> 00:45:21.429 social realities. And so just encouraging people to always explore 736 00:45:21.449 --> 00:45:22.670 the balance between those two. 737 00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:25.420 Did I give you enough of a chance to sort 738 00:45:25.460 --> 00:45:27.510 of state the central thesis? 739 00:45:28.869 --> 00:45:32.809 The central thesis is that we are not separate, but 740 00:45:32.869 --> 00:45:39.210 we're not the same. So, you know, that balance that 741 00:45:39.309 --> 00:45:43.269 we are interconnected, that's the truth of our reality. And 742 00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:47.599 we inherit the reality of our differences and all that 743 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.860 has wrought over the centuries. 744 00:45:52.699 --> 00:45:57.239 We're not separate, but we're not the same. So I'm 745 00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:00.880 not exactly the same as Sabine Selassie, but it is 746 00:46:00.900 --> 00:46:06.699 a closing off of reality that does harm to you 747 00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:09.489 and to me for me to think that there's no 748 00:46:09.550 --> 00:46:11.110 connection between us whatsoever. 749 00:46:11.949 --> 00:46:14.750 Yes. And, you know, that might be easier to acknowledge 750 00:46:14.809 --> 00:46:18.590 between us because we're friends, but can we apply that 751 00:46:18.710 --> 00:46:23.179 same type of awareness to the things that we want 752 00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:27.070 to feel separate from. So people with whom we disagree, 753 00:46:27.190 --> 00:46:31.150 people with whom we have challenges, the current mess of 754 00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:35.190 our political and social realities, we belong to all of it, 755 00:46:35.300 --> 00:46:35.699 all of us. 756 00:46:37.699 --> 00:46:39.159 Actually, this is a good chance for you to tell 757 00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:40.760 your George W. Bush story, perhaps. 758 00:46:41.539 --> 00:46:45.900 Oh, goodness, yeah. Feels like simpler times, but I was... 759 00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:48.960 not happy with the presidency of George W. Bush. It 760 00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:52.320 was around the time of Katrina. And a friend of 761 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:56.260 mine suggested that I do metta for him. And so, 762 00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.860 you know, I'd sort of worked through a lot of 763

00:46:58.900 --> 00:47:01.360 my own anger. I wouldn't encourage someone to just go 764 00:47:01.420 --> 00:47:03.800 and do metta for someone else without kind of tending 765 00:47:03.860 --> 00:47:07.440 to their own pain or suffering. But I was sort 766 00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:12.070 of caught in loops of real pointed hatred and So 767 00:47:12.329 --> 00:47:14.969 I decided to make up my own metta practice. I 768 00:47:14.989 --> 00:47:17.349 didn't want to do the phrases, may you be well 769 00:47:17.409 --> 00:47:19.849 or whatever with him. I really was trying to understand 770 00:47:20.329 --> 00:47:23.550 how I could connect to the truth of our interconnection. 771 00:47:23.570 --> 00:47:26.880 At that point, through many years of practice, I knew 772 00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:30.059 that we were all wound up together, but I wasn't 773 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:33.039 feeling that. So I started this practice where I would 774 00:47:33.199 --> 00:47:35.460 every morning, and I did this for weeks, I would 775 00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:37.780 kind of go through George Bush's life. And I would 776 00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:42.199 imagine him as a fetus inside Barbara Bush, I would 777 00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.000 imagine him as a baby. I would imagine him going 778 00:47:44.019 --> 00:47:47.110 to school and experiencing what he did from what I 779 00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:50.469 knew of his life, his addiction issues, and then his 780 00:47:50.550 --> 00:47:53.969 political career. And I just kind of did this practice 781 00:47:54.070 --> 00:47:56.590 every day. It was just kind of a strange practice. 782 00:47:56.710 --> 00:47:58.869 It's not a classical practice as far as I know. 783 00:47:59.889 --> 00:48:03.380 And a few weeks into it, I really understood, not 784 00:48:03.460 --> 00:48:06.179 from a conceptual level, because I already understood if I 785 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:09.219 lived George Bush's life, I'd be George Bush. But on 786 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:13.329 a deeper and fundamental level, I realized, oh, I would 787 00:48:13.349 --> 00:48:16.530 be George Bush if I had lived his life. And 788 00:48:16.579 --> 00:48:20.320 it really helped me see how my contention with people, 789 00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:23.920 kind of needing them to be different than they are, 790 00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:28.300 to see things the way I see things, which, you know, again, 791 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:33.500 was a big kind of place of my contraction in arguing, 792 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.659 that I was sort of going against reality. That there 793 00:48:37.699 --> 00:48:41.650 was a way in which I was creating suffering for 794 00:48:41.690 --> 00:48:44.469 myself by thinking that someone should be different than they are. 795 00:48:45.429 --> 00:48:48.340 And that didn't solve all my problems. It certainly didn't 796 00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:52.320 resolve my political anger forever. But there was a shift 797 00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:54.659 in that moment for

me in how I kind of 798 00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:58.139 meet the political realities that I confront, that there's a 799 00:48:58.219 --> 00:49:01.840 way in which I can understand that when I expect 800 00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:04.519 someone to be different than they are, there's also a 801 00:49:04.579 --> 00:49:09.400 level of superiority in my separation from them. As if 802 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:12.369 somehow if I were them, I would think differently. 803 00:49:14.659 --> 00:49:18.860 But does that neuter your ability to fight for change? 804 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:23.099 No, because it's being in contention with reality of the 805 00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:29.119 present moment. It's not dissolving my longing for something to 806 00:49:29.179 --> 00:49:32.389 change in the future. It's just meeting the present moment 807 00:49:32.429 --> 00:49:39.010 reality without draining my energy for a better past. When 808 00:49:39.050 --> 00:49:42.480 we're wishing for things to have been different, for someone 809 00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:44.300 to be different than they are, it's a drain of 810 00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:46.960 our energy. We can't change the past. We can't change 811 00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:50.820 who they are. We can't change their karma or their 812 00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:55.670 trajectory or conditioning. All we can do is sometimes fight 813 00:49:55.750 --> 00:50:00.030 for and demand change in this moment. kind of given 814 00:50:00.150 --> 00:50:02.869 up needing people to be different than they are. And 815 00:50:03.449 --> 00:50:06.489 what comes from that, and I've experienced in myself, is 816 00:50:06.590 --> 00:50:09.489 the sense of superiority and domination that that can kind 817 00:50:09.530 --> 00:50:13.719 of unleash in me. When I need someone to be 818 00:50:13.739 --> 00:50:16.739 different than they are, it often comes out in the 819 00:50:16.820 --> 00:50:21.900 form of domination. So belittling someone for how they are 820 00:50:22.219 --> 00:50:26.880 or shaming people for how they are, it sort of 821 00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:31.199 prevented me from that kind of behavior. And so just 822 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:38.000 to name that this is kind of complex territory. And 823 00:50:38.099 --> 00:50:41.480 so it's not something we can explore, you know, sort 824 00:50:41.500 --> 00:50:43.719 of at the end of a podcast in a soundbite 825 00:50:43.900 --> 00:50:51.030 that this is something that the great spiritual social justice 826 00:50:51.090 --> 00:50:53.909 leaders of our time have talked about for ages. And 827 00:50:53.969 --> 00:50:57.929 so exploring the teachings of Martin Luther King Jr. or 828 00:50:59.050 --> 00:51:02.210 you know, some of the teachers of healing justice and 829 00:51:02.329 --> 00:51:07.030 social justice movements that are based in transformation, in abolition 830 00:51:07.050 --> 00:51:10.519 and true freedom, that we have to dive into those 831 00:51:10.619 --> 00:51:13.500 explorations and

those conversations to really understand it well. 832 00:51:14.500 --> 00:51:16.159 But I would just say, and again, I know we're 833 00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:18.079 not going to be able to, you know, do a 834 00:51:18.119 --> 00:51:25.219 full exegesis of this, but isn't there some self-interest, an 835 00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:33.530 enlightened self-interest in Having our actions here turning down the 836 00:51:33.590 --> 00:51:39.610 volume on superiority and separation might refresh us and give 837 00:51:39.690 --> 00:51:42.070 us more energy to do the work we want to do. 838 00:51:43.389 --> 00:51:46.619 Yes, definitely. And it's also just the truth of the 839 00:51:46.659 --> 00:51:48.940 nature of reality. Right. 840 00:51:49.019 --> 00:51:52.059 Fighting against the truth is it saps your energy. It does. 841 00:51:52.900 --> 00:51:58.389 And it's also not seeing things clearly. And that's what 842 00:51:58.510 --> 00:52:04.510 this work of Dharma, translated often as truth, is. That 843 00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:10.219 we are, in a sense, our aspiration is to full wisdom. 844 00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:14.519 And it's that wisdom, that clarity, that liberates. 845 00:52:15.619 --> 00:52:18.219 Thanks you both for an excellent interview. Do you mind 846 00:52:18.260 --> 00:52:19.480 if I also ask a question? 847 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:20.989 Yeah. 848 00:52:22.050 --> 00:52:25.090 So I'm just very interested in this topic, and it's 849 00:52:25.130 --> 00:52:28.139 been great to hear you. A few things are coming 850 00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:30.460 up for me. For example, I mean, even before knowing 851 00:52:30.500 --> 00:52:32.820 your book, I've just started the process of the magical 852 00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:35.949 art of tidying up, you know, Marie Kondo. So I 853 00:52:35.989 --> 00:52:38.449 did a bunch of journaling and literally what I wrote 854 00:52:38.489 --> 00:52:41.230 was I've never belonged in my life. And I just said, 855 00:52:41.369 --> 00:52:43.670 I want to create a space where I belong. And 856 00:52:44.230 --> 00:52:45.989 there could be so many reasons. I don't know if 857 00:52:46.090 --> 00:52:48.510 it's because I'm Jewish or because like my mom is 858 00:52:48.670 --> 00:52:51.530 an immigrant or, Just I grew up in Los Angeles, 859 00:52:51.590 --> 00:52:53.909 which is not about belonging. Like it could be a 860 00:52:53.949 --> 00:52:56.409 thousand different things. It doesn't matter. But in this moment, 861 00:52:56.489 --> 00:52:59.110 I want to create a space of belonging. I also 862 00:52:59.210 --> 00:53:02.429 live alone and we're in a global pandemic and I 863 00:53:02.469 --> 00:53:06.579 don't see many people. And so I also think the 864 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:11.400 comparing mind can be just hyper activated because it's constantly 865 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.019 looking at other people or thinking about everyone that's connected. 866 00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:18.219 And I'm just wondering if you can offer more, especially 867 00:53:18.260 --> 00:53:20.820 for the like, I know you're You can still be 868 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:23.880 married and still feel lonely. But like what it looks 869 00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:26.500 like to belong in isolation in this time. 870 00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.769 Yeah, you know, I so appreciate you sharing that and 871 00:53:32.130 --> 00:53:34.750 the vulnerability of all of the reasons why we feel 872 00:53:34.809 --> 00:53:38.769 we don't belong and the ones that you highlighted. And 873 00:53:39.250 --> 00:53:42.789 you said I never belonged. And the truth of it 874 00:53:42.849 --> 00:53:45.780 is that you've always belonged. You just have feelings of 875 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:50.820 not belonging. And that is, I think, a fundamental challenge 876 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:54.320 for any of us, especially with all the messages we 877 00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:56.800 get from the culture and the society about the ways, 878 00:53:57.340 --> 00:53:59.199 the only ways we can belong is if we look 879 00:53:59.219 --> 00:54:01.659 this way or act this way or have this much stuff. 880 00:54:02.510 --> 00:54:07.829 And so whether we're alone, physically isolated or with others, 881 00:54:08.429 --> 00:54:13.269 the practice of reconnecting to that truth of belonging is similar. 882 00:54:13.690 --> 00:54:18.699 It starts inside. It's not about our external connections at first. Right. 883 00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:21.610 And it's interesting you bring up Marie Kondo. I actually 884 00:54:21.619 --> 00:54:26.530 bring her up in the book because modern Western interpretation 885 00:54:26.590 --> 00:54:29.190 of her has been kind of dismissing the power of 886 00:54:29.230 --> 00:54:33.750 what she's doing, which is actually very indigenous. Some Asian 887 00:54:33.769 --> 00:54:38.130 Americans and Japanese folks have pointed out that a lot 888 00:54:38.349 --> 00:54:42.590 of what she's doing is, you know, Shinto wisdom. that 889 00:54:42.690 --> 00:54:46.989 there's this way in which she honors every object and 890 00:54:47.389 --> 00:54:51.789 every experience that you're kind of going through as living, 891 00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:56.760 as having a living presence. And so we're surrounded by belonging, 892 00:54:56.780 --> 00:55:00.380 like we're embedded in belonging, whether we're with other people 893 00:55:00.420 --> 00:55:03.659 or not. And she kind of beautifully guides people through 894 00:55:03.699 --> 00:55:09.800 this very mindful, very kind of engaged process of acknowledging 895 00:55:09.820 --> 00:55:13.030 that the living reality of everything we're coming into contact 896 00:55:13.070 --> 00:55:17.929 with that points to that fundamental belonging and truth. So, yeah, 897 00:55:17.949 --> 00:55:19.030 I love that you brought her up. 898 00:55:19.829 --> 00:55:20.989 I really appreciate that. 899 00:55:21.909 --> 00:55:23.539 Thank you, Marissa. Great question. 900 00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:28.719 Bravo, Marissa, as always. She was in our recent sex 901 00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:29.599 episode as well. 902 00:55:30.059 --> 00:55:32.659 I heard that. It was great. Very cool. I'm so 903 00:55:32.699 --> 00:55:36.239 glad you didn't ask me about sex. Appreciate that. 904 00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:42.119 Seb, love you. Thank you. 905 00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:44.960 Love you, too. Thank you both so much. It's really great. 906 00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:49.280 Have a great evening. Do some dancing, Dan. Okay. 907 00:55:51.730 --> 00:55:57.110 Bye. Thank you again to Seb and A. And speaking 908 00:55:57.130 --> 00:55:59.030 of thank yous, my team and I want to send 909 00:55:59.070 --> 00:56:02.650 a big thank you and shout out and gesture of 910 00:56:02.710 --> 00:56:05.340 support to the many teachers and others who work in 911 00:56:05.389 --> 00:56:11.150 education at this incredibly difficult moment. And to recognize the 912 00:56:11.170 --> 00:56:13.750 struggles you're dealing with right now, we want to give 913 00:56:13.769 --> 00:56:16.789 you free access to the 10% Happier app, hundreds of 914 00:56:16.809 --> 00:56:21.170 meditations on there, lots of other resources as well, including 915 00:56:21.210 --> 00:56:23.969 talks and courses. So if you want free access, go 916 00:56:24.010 --> 00:56:27.349 to 10% dot com slash care. That's 10% one word 917 00:56:27.469 --> 00:56:31.429 all spelled out dot com slash care. Finally, as always, 918 00:56:32.230 --> 00:56:34.750 much gratitude to the team who worked so hard to 919 00:56:34.789 --> 00:56:37.449 make this show a reality. Samuel Johns is our senior producer. 920 00:56:37.510 --> 00:56:40.849 Marissa Schneiderman is our producer. Sound designers Matt Boynton and 921 00:56:40.949 --> 00:56:44.190 Anya Sheshik of Ultraviolet Audio. Thanks to both of you. 922 00:56:44.269 --> 00:56:47.769 Maria Wirtel is our production coordinator. And, of course, I 923 00:56:47.789 --> 00:56:51.070 want to thank everybody from TPH who weigh in on 924 00:56:51.170 --> 00:56:53.829 what we do, including Ben Rubin, Jen Point, Nate Tobey, 925 00:56:53.869 --> 00:56:57.489 and Liz Levin. And I would be remiss if I 926 00:56:57.530 --> 00:57:00.570 didn't thank my ABC News comrades, Ryan Kessler and Josh Kohan. 927 00:57:00.949 --> 00:57:02.849 We'll see you all on Friday for a bonus.