Buong transkripsyon ng Exploring with Purpose with Dr. Jonathan Reams

KOPYA NG SALIN 🔗

WEBVTT 00:00:02.345 --> 00:00:05.812 Okay, everybody, welcome to the Phronesis Podcast Practical Wisdom for Leaders. 00:00:05.812 --> 00:00:09.121 Thank you so much for checking in wherever you are in the world Today. 00:00:09.121 --> 00:00:13.432 This is episode 300 and probably 301. 00:00:13.432 --> 00:00:17.289 And I'm so excited for this conversation because I have a guest. 00:00:17.289 --> 00:00:33.399 He's probably been a guest and a co-host more than anyone else in the world and that's Jonathan Reams, and he is a curious seeker and has recently left academia and is now doing work with organizations around the world and he's a bit of a mad scientist. 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:34.743 He's building something. 00:00:34.743 --> 00:00:37.991 We don't yet know what it is, but he's building, building, building. 00:00:37.991 --> 00:00:41.421 He showed me code the other day, so it's going to be cool. 00:00:41.421 --> 00:00:42.762 It's going to be very, very interesting. 00:00:42.843 --> 00:00:52.029 But we both have this passion for the puzzle of how we better prepare people to serve in these really challenging roles. 00:00:52.029 --> 00:00:53.069 What do we do? 00:00:53.069 --> 00:00:56.070 How do we do that and how do we scaffold that learning? 00:00:56.070 --> 00:01:00.514 How do we approach that learning theory? 00:01:00.514 --> 00:01:13.923 And today we may geek out a little bit on some of that theory, but the search here is what do we need to do to make it actionable? 00:01:13.923 --> 00:01:16.548 And ultimately, again, how do we better prepare people to serve in these roles and be of service to those individuals? 00:01:16.548 --> 00:01:18.953 Use that theory to inform practice. 00:01:18.953 --> 00:01:22.331 Jonathan, thank you so much for being with me today. 00:01:22.331 --> 00:01:25.727 I don't know exactly where this conversation is going to go, but I know it's going to be fun. 00:01:25.727 --> 00:01:36.007 You are one of the only people that I know that has said you know, I've listened to every episode, and so you reached out a few weeks back and said hey, I've got some things I'm thinking about. 00:01:36.007 --> 00:01:39.935 You know, and I'm excited to hear about your thinking. 00:01:39.935 --> 00:01:41.224 So how are you, sir? 00:01:42.361 --> 00:01:47.552 I am fine, scott, I am really excited about today's conversation. 00:01:47.552 --> 00:02:02.492 It came about when I was in the gym as I often am when I'm listening to your podcast and you were talking with Amal and Berndt about the knowing-doing gap in the paper they'd written on that. 00:02:02.751 --> 00:02:03.033 Yes. 00:02:03.774 --> 00:02:06.900 And that sparked so many associations. 00:02:06.900 --> 00:02:22.485 But I was in the gym and I saw I had to really listen to it, download the transcript, start writing responses in the transcript and really for me it's ever since I read Keegan and Leahy's and everyone culture. 00:02:22.485 --> 00:02:38.067 Yes, this question of how do we enable developmental processes and we mean something specific by developmental but that they are clear and simple enough to scale easily in organizations. 00:02:38.067 --> 00:03:05.604 And I would say over the last 10 years I've made lots of different experiments with different programs, platforms, processes, trying to explore the same territory that Amal and Berndt were talking about, and so I wanted to kind of build on and take off from some of the things they laid out and explore those with you, yes, yeah, let's do it. 00:03:05.663 --> 00:03:06.004 Let's do it. 00:03:06.004 --> 00:03:06.687 I'm excited. 00:03:06.687 --> 00:03:09.673 I will follow your lead, sir, so let's jump in. 00:03:09.673 --> 00:03:10.522 What are you thinking about? 00:03:10.522 --> 00:03:11.186 Where do you want to start? 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:17.989 Well, I'm trying to go in a semi-organized way here. 00:03:17.989 --> 00:03:21.395 Yes, and you laugh knowingly. 00:03:21.395 --> 00:03:26.831 Yes, and you laugh knowingly, so let's maybe start early. 00:03:26.831 --> 00:03:34.602 One of the things that Amal described was the challenge of training transfer. 00:03:34.602 --> 00:03:37.705 When looking at the literature about, what do we understand about? 00:03:37.705 --> 00:03:44.894 What helps leaders is we send them off, we run them through trainings and they go back to the organization. 00:03:44.894 --> 00:03:46.817 What happens? 00:03:46.817 --> 00:03:54.554 Well, there's all sorts of things around how the culture is ready for that, how the people are prepared, all those kind of things. 00:03:54.554 --> 00:04:09.724 But she was pointing to that most of the literature is in more the behavioral sciences, training transfer issues and so on, and I think that there's a number of things that come up from that One. 00:04:11.086 --> 00:04:25.312 We're all practicing philosophers, whether we like it or not, and what I mean by that is we may say, well, we just use the data, or we just, you know, focus on empirical evidence. 00:04:25.312 --> 00:04:34.730 All the choices that we make have implicit, unrecognized paradigms behind them. 00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:48.254 We may have been socialized into, trained in a discipline, in a profession, that, where people in the past have made choices about how are they going to approach it. 00:04:48.254 --> 00:04:54.230 Are they, you know, using a constructivist platform or are they using an empiricist one? 00:04:54.230 --> 00:05:00.319 Are they using a post-positivist paradigm or that you know there's all these different things that have implications. 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:23.994 Yeah, so there was a phrase in one of my methods courses in my doctoral program at Gonzaga there are no innocent numbers when you're talking about survey research, because there are so many layers of choices behind how questions are framed and posed and scales designed and what statistical things are done. 00:05:23.994 --> 00:05:30.348 And it's the same way in training

Load full transcript

and development there's no innocent setup. 00:05:30.348 --> 00:05:43.047 So I think what Amal is pointing to in what she describes represents really decades of a positivist, kind of reductionist paradigm about what training is? 00:05:43.047 --> 00:05:57.372 You train behaviors and it's assuming surface-level communication of information through words and that that would adequately convey shared implicit understandings, resources and all of that. 00:05:57.372 --> 00:05:58.906 It would just be a given. 00:05:58.906 --> 00:06:01.648 If I tell you, you will get what I mean. 00:06:02.711 --> 00:06:10.384 Yes, and I think that exists in academia, right, I mean, where it's it's. 00:06:10.384 --> 00:06:21.913 And you're going to have to steer me a little bit as well, jonathan, here, because I think I could take the conversation off track as well. 00:06:21.913 --> 00:06:43.550 But I think in some domains maybe that's okay If I now have to go and use a machine or I have to know that's going to be a part of my daily work and I'm going to be held accountable to knowing exactly that information, and then it's kind of interesting, but oftentimes in leadership that's not the case. 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:45.500 Well, that's, you know, it's kind of interesting, but oftentimes in leadership that's not the case. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:47.221 Well, that's. 00:06:47.221 --> 00:06:47.983 You know. 00:06:47.983 --> 00:07:03.555 It's like you're reading my notes in front of me on the screen, which you aren't, but you have perfect setup here, because where I pause, the next thing I wanted to go into is for training sensory motor skills. 00:07:03.555 --> 00:07:07.860 Those kind of things work really well, you know. 00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:12.350 It's observable, you can kind of measure the performance more easily. 00:07:12.350 --> 00:07:16.370 There's lots of things that it works well for. 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:21.699 The challenge is, as you say, go into leadership skills. 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:28.033 You start getting into more and more internal processes. 00:07:28.033 --> 00:07:32.987 So the phrase you quote me on leaders create the weather. 00:07:33.428 --> 00:07:33.670 Yes. 00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:43.394 Well, that's a very densely chunked construct that has implicit in it a whole bunch of things that are relatively subtle. 00:07:43.394 --> 00:07:46.622 They're not things you're going to measure in the same way. 00:07:46.622 --> 00:07:50.552 We can break it down more and so on, but that's a different thing. 00:07:50.552 --> 00:08:07.552 So the challenge that you bring up is, yeah, we can behaviorally train and simulate and measure working a machine the right way or doing some other concrete things. 00:08:07.552 --> 00:08:43.563 But as we get into more complex constructs where, as you said in the podcast with Berndt and Amal, you know, when you're trying to give students LMX theory and transformational leadership, those are concepts that are a result of people doing decades of work and are highly packed and chunked with a whole set of building blocks that those students you can't guarantee they've encountered them or have them to work with. 00:08:43.663 --> 00:08:53.370 And so they often the phrase I like is they will downwardly assimilate what you tell them into what they already understand. 00:08:53.370 --> 00:09:00.313 They will cut off all sorts of nuances and edges and bring it down. 00:09:00.313 --> 00:09:04.660 Okay, that's what I think he's talking about and that's what I'll work with. 00:09:05.140 --> 00:09:17.691 Yeah Well, and you know, back to kind of like a developmental perspective, that that content, that same content, can be internalized very, very different. 00:09:17.691 --> 00:09:20.393 Oh, this is how I can get them to do exactly what I want them to do. 00:09:20.393 --> 00:09:24.336 Or, you know, it can be, it can be internalized. 00:09:24.336 --> 00:09:27.018 Let's just take the topic of influence tactics. 00:09:27.018 --> 00:09:34.666 I mean that can be internalized very differently depending on the developmental stage of the individual learner. 00:09:34.666 --> 00:09:38.879 And so I've said it a couple of times on the podcast and again, this is where you're going to have to lead me. 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:55.889 But I wonder sometimes there's the notion of vertical and horizontal development, and so, for listeners, just a very, very quick way of defining that Jonathan, please push back on me if you disagree. 00:09:55.889 --> 00:10:17.308 Are we helping the human develop cognitively, increasing their kind of cognitive structure and moving through those stages, torbert or Keegan and horizontal being more of the content, and that would maybe be what transformational leadership is, or active listening? 00:10:17.308 --> 00:10:25.413 Those might be topics, but are we starting in the wrong space when we do leader development today? 00:10:25.413 --> 00:10:33.388 Is it more about the habits of mind and the ways of kind of making sense of the world and what's happening around us? 00:10:33.388 --> 00:10:42.495 Is that almost as important a place to begin than any of the topical things we begin with oftentimes. 00:10:42.495 --> 00:10:45.346 So how do I reflect? 00:10:45.346 --> 00:10:55.523 What are the habits of mind I should have as an individual to facilitate that lifelong learning that's going to help me make sense of what's happening around me. 00:10:57.508 --> 00:10:59.491 Well, that's a lot to unpack. 00:10:59.491 --> 00:11:29.832 So I will say that the distinction of vertical and horizontal is used a lot, is convenient for some things and often misinterpreted or appropriated. 00:11:29.832 --> 00:11:36.868 So I would say that the understanding of those distinctions makes sense in certain contexts but not in others. 00:11:36.868 --> 00:11:43.130 Okay, and let's put a pin in that and maybe come back to it later. 00:11:43.410 --> 00:11:47.400 Sure, the point about are we starting in the wrong

place? 00:11:47.400 --> 00:11:59.179 Is a lot of people come there Arbinger Institute, you know and their model of an outward mindset or being out of the box or having a heart at peace. 00:11:59.179 --> 00:12:04.797 They say you start with mindset, yes, the ask model, you know. 00:12:04.797 --> 00:12:07.222 Attitude, skills and knowledge. 00:12:07.222 --> 00:12:11.337 You can give people knowledge, you can teach them skills, but attitude, you know. 00:12:11.337 --> 00:12:14.302 So that's higher leverage things. 00:12:14.302 --> 00:12:16.667 The, the leaders create the weather. 00:12:16.667 --> 00:12:30.820 The weather is often created by the leader's internal state, their emotional you know energetic vibrations they're giving out that people are sensitive to and reacting to. 00:12:31.340 --> 00:12:51.923 Yes, so those kind of things are more foundational in a way, but also subtler and harder to pin down, to put in a curriculum, to teach in a course or even teach in a, you know, delivery to a client. 00:12:54.145 --> 00:14:00.259 So I think that there's and part of this is if we think about the notion of training as a concept, or um consulting, you know, workshops, all these kind of things, they're all kind of informed by our modern educational system and people like Ken Robinson, you know, were very, and many others Paulo Freire and Parker Palmer and others are great at showing that there are assumptions built into that system and Theo Dawson is very good about this lately that you know. 00:14:00.278 --> 00:14:07.537 It is pointing the education system towards the end result from natural play and exploration and experimentation by children to also then learn how to critically reflect on what they've done and is it fit for purpose or not, or what is the impact socially on others when these things want. 00:14:07.537 --> 00:14:12.303 Those kind of things are less a part of the modern educational system. 00:14:12.303 --> 00:14:22.407 So what we end up having this idea of is that knowing about something is learning how to actually do it. 00:14:22.407 --> 00:14:33.261 And the idea is we know about walking, but we learned how to walk through doing it, not through an abstraction about it. 00:14:33.261 --> 00:14:47.082 And I think at a deep level we've transferred this assumption that concrete behavioral skills can be done in the same way as more abstract concepts of leadership. 00:14:47.806 --> 00:14:53.442 Yeah, and with leadership there's an infinite number of variables, right? 00:14:54.363 --> 00:14:59.090 Yeah Well, so let's talk about that a little bit. 00:14:59.090 --> 00:15:10.876 Yeah, what is the complexity of leadership as a concept? 00:15:10.876 --> 00:15:12.278 And of course it becomes empirically hard to define. 00:15:12.278 --> 00:15:23.051 People want to pin it down and say well, and then you have all the proliferation of theories and models and all these kind of things that try to look at what's observable. 00:15:23.051 --> 00:15:39.961 But I always I like the quote from Bill O'Brien that Otto Scharmer used in Theory U, that the success of the intervention is primarily due to the interior condition of the intervener is primarily due to the interior condition of the intervener. 00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:40.241 Say more. 00:15:41.043 --> 00:15:43.225 Well, this is, leaders create the weather. 00:15:43.225 --> 00:15:47.831 There is something about our sensitivity. 00:15:47.831 --> 00:15:54.813 So now I'll go off piste a bit. 00:15:54.813 --> 00:15:59.365 Heartmath, for instance, has done a lot of research in the field of neurocardiology, and more than them. 00:15:59.365 --> 00:16:01.914 There's lots of research that shows that there's neurons in the heart. 00:16:01.914 --> 00:16:10.889 They have a modality of sensing and energetically projecting related to things you can measure. 00:16:10.889 --> 00:16:21.844 So the coherence of our heart rate variability, combined with our breathing and our attitude, can create different states that can be felt by others. 00:16:21.844 --> 00:16:23.027 By others. 00:16:23.027 --> 00:16:28.979 You can, they, they say they can measure it like 10 feet out wow, you can physically measure it. 00:16:28.979 --> 00:16:31.881 And, of course, people. 00:16:31.881 --> 00:16:33.384 You know. 00:16:33.384 --> 00:16:35.205 You kind of have a sense. 00:16:36.005 --> 00:16:41.171 You interviewed Mark Bowden a while ago. 00:16:41.171 --> 00:16:48.865 Yes, I've watched some of his talks and listened to his podcast. 00:16:48.865 --> 00:16:50.190 He's tapping into this area. 00:16:50.190 --> 00:16:51.956 People trust or don't trust. 00:16:51.956 --> 00:17:01.182 You lean in or defend based on very subtle clues almost instantly, and some of those are visual and behavioral, but some of them are energetic. 00:17:01.182 --> 00:17:06.933 Yeah, so how you feel inside. 00:17:06.933 --> 00:17:12.882 You may think is invisible and you can hide it, but you can't no, no. 00:17:14.124 --> 00:17:33.146 No, no I have a gentleman who's in Scotland and he's, you know, as you know, I've been exploring on LinkedIn quite a bit and he's pushing pretty hard on this kind of notion, that, and he's writing quite a bit on this topic and but it's, it's hard to fake your energetic state. 00:17:33.146 --> 00:17:41.247 Yeah, exactly, and your signal is communicating, whether you like it or not. 00:17:41.247 --> 00:17:52.289 And so you know, are you at least how I understand his work is are you kind of in a healthy space or in a solid space to be of service to others? 00:17:52.434 --> 00:17:59.058 Because it's hard to fake that to be of service to others, because it's hard to take that. 00:17:59.058 --> 00:18:29.018 So you can learn all the right things to say and all the right models to use, but the I think the concept of authenticity gets misused a lot, but I think this is what we're talking about in some ways yeah if people have a feeling that, hey, even if they're making a mess of things, their

heart's in the right place, and there's something about that that allows you to be more flexible and lean in and engage in a process. 00:18:31.038 --> 00:18:52.690 And I think this idea of engaging in a process is, you know, one of the notes I made preparing for this came to the point of saying hmm, actually, I think the essence of this is how can we shift from a content-based learning about leadership to a process-based learning? 00:18:52.690 --> 00:18:53.951 Okay, say more leadership, to a process-based learning. 00:18:53.951 --> 00:18:55.090 Okay, say more. 00:18:55.090 --> 00:19:07.380 Well, let's circle back before I say more, because we're talking about how do we unpack leadership as a concept? 00:19:07.380 --> 00:19:08.643 So we can break it down very simply. 00:19:08.643 --> 00:19:11.230 There's task and relationship right, we can break these down. 00:19:11.791 --> 00:19:12.914 But what's task about? 00:19:12.914 --> 00:19:20.000 Well, you can take some models that say it's about having a sense of why, a purpose and vision. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:26.119 It's also about developing a strategy to execute on that, making decisions on that basis. 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:48.036 But you've also got to be able to kind of read the context, analyze the system and all these things, and then, once you have all that, you have to have skills to execute on the tasks and do things, and for leaders, that's often communicating all this clearly enough so that others can actually execute In the same way. 00:19:48.036 --> 00:19:56.184 We can take relationships and say, well, we need to be able to show genuine care for others and say, well, we need to be able to show genuine care for others. 00:19:56.184 --> 00:20:01.431 A phrase I heard is I don't care how much you know until I know how much you care. 00:20:02.894 --> 00:20:03.135 Yeah, yeah. 00:20:03.135 --> 00:20:09.467 But I think what's interesting, Jonathan, is like the four or five things you just talked about strategy. 00:20:09.467 --> 00:20:11.029 You just talked about vision. 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:21.023 I think sometimes you take Kuz's and Posner, which I love right, I love that work, but let's pick on it for a second, just for the sake of an interesting conversation. 00:20:21.023 --> 00:20:32.701 Inspiring a shared vision is when I am 45 to 50 to 55 years old. 00:20:32.701 --> 00:20:37.890 For most people Now, that's not a hard and fast truth. 00:20:37.890 --> 00:20:48.106 What should we be teaching them when they're in college, when they're in high school, when they're in their twenties, Because many of these people won't necessarily. 00:20:48.106 --> 00:20:53.146 I mean, we could teach them to inspire a shared vision with their team and why that's important. 00:20:53.146 --> 00:21:01.102 But implicit in inspiring a shared vision, it's, to your point, a whole bunch of things. 00:21:02.144 --> 00:21:04.027 Oh my God. 00:21:04.027 --> 00:21:08.997 So we simplify it, you know, down to inspire, challenge the process. 00:21:08.997 --> 00:21:36.115 Well, okay, so you know, it seems to me, are you starting with a human being that is in the process of becoming as whole as possible, and that statement, in and of itself, is the work of philosophers the first. 00:21:36.135 --> 00:21:45.795 So there's something really interesting I want to come to with that, and how I want to get there is to say that, you know, we can equally take all those things and break them down endlessly, and that's actually becomes very important to do when we want to understand. 00:21:45.795 --> 00:21:47.578 What do we teach college students? 00:21:47.578 --> 00:21:50.384 We can break relationships down. 00:21:50.384 --> 00:21:55.042 Yeah, we need to care, but we also need to be able to learn how to play nice with each other. 00:21:55.042 --> 00:22:04.546 Yes, you coordinate others to play nice, having social, emotional intelligence, and a lot of this goes to the thing of self-leadership. 00:22:04.546 --> 00:22:09.538 Yeah, now, that's a whole domain in itself too. 00:22:09.979 --> 00:22:37.994 But one of the things I found interesting my wife was doing some research on wisdom literature and one of the things she found was that while there is this sense that wisdom accumulates with age, there's another sense and research behind it, that wisdom related skills are actually most developed between the ages of 18 and 25. 00:22:37.994 --> 00:23:15.385 And what I take from that in my own way and I'm not trying to cite the research here or anything is that this is this socialized mind period where there's a real openness to be informed by what's the right thing to focus on, and if we train students at this age to learn to notice, take action, do stuff and reflect on it and critically analyze it and cycle that. 00:23:15.385 --> 00:23:56.477 Yes, if we teach that, then then the next 20 years of experience to when maybe they trying again and doing all these things and have a little bit more wisdom yes, which enables people to have a felt sense that there's something to what they're saying and it's not just the latest kind of spiel going out Well okay. 00:23:56.576 --> 00:24:14.625 So a nook and cranny of this conversation wonderful dialogue with Ron Riggio I think it was our last conversation we had where we got into parenting in the home, right, and one little nook and cranny of this conversation is let's talk about resilience. 00:24:14.625 --> 00:24:15.076 Okay, if you choose to lead, you're. 00:24:15.076 --> 00:24:15.694 One little nook and cranny of this conversation is let's talk about resilience. 00:24:15.694 --> 00:24:17.663 Ok, if you choose to lead, you're going to fail. 00:24:17.663 --> 00:24:20.303 If you choose to lead, there's going to be setbacks. 00:24:20.303 --> 00:24:21.306 You're going to make mistakes. 00:24:21.306 --> 00:24:23.102 You're putting yourself out there into the unknown. 00:24:24.055 --> 00:24:33.356 So my wife and I work hard to model failure and

setbacks as a part of the normal process of doing things Right. 00:24:33.356 --> 00:24:38.421 So when our children don't achieve something they'd hoped to, we process that. 00:24:38.421 --> 00:24:44.740 We have a conversation, we help them reflect a little bit, but we also model it ourselves. 00:24:44.740 --> 00:24:48.469 So I just had a paper rejected by Sloan Management Review. 00:24:48.469 --> 00:24:51.861 I talk about it with my kids and that's just part of the process. 00:24:51.861 --> 00:24:54.847 And okay, I'm going to come back and we're going to try somewhere else. 00:24:54.847 --> 00:24:56.922 And that's the work. 00:24:57.134 --> 00:25:00.905 Dad at 52 is failing sometimes or not getting what he'd hoped to. 00:25:00.905 --> 00:25:08.586 So when they're not getting a part in the musical or the play or my son maybe didn't play as much baseball as he had hoped to in the spring. 00:25:08.586 --> 00:25:16.028 They have a frame of how to navigate that and kind of a larger picture of how to make sense of some of that. 00:25:16.028 --> 00:25:18.262 It doesn't destroy their world, so to speak. 00:25:18.262 --> 00:25:20.122 It's a part of the process. 00:25:20.122 --> 00:25:27.388 So I think I'm really interested in yes, what are those? 00:25:27.388 --> 00:25:30.824 Because I think it's happening their whole childhood. 00:25:30.824 --> 00:25:34.103 What we're modeling, optimism or any other, you know what I mean. 00:25:35.375 --> 00:25:41.768 And I looked at Ron's paper that you talked about where they looked at, you know, leadership in the kindergarten playground. 00:25:41.768 --> 00:25:45.003 Yes, how are these things being developed there? 00:25:45.003 --> 00:25:51.827 And so it is much earlier in life that these things start being modeled and internalized. 00:25:51.827 --> 00:26:12.766 If we're mindful being modeled and internalized, if we're mindful To the point about resilience I was writing something because my wife's doing her PhD on this program we build around building emotional resilience and we are trying to clarify that what we mean by resilience is not coming back to a homeostatic norm. 00:26:14.126 --> 00:26:17.411 That's actually not what is really meant by this. 00:26:17.411 --> 00:26:35.806 The idea of resilience to me is having an inherently developmental approach, so that when something doesn't go as you planned or imagined, you don't just cut it off or say it's a mistake, I'll try again. 00:26:35.806 --> 00:26:39.603 You say what was it that I did that led to this? 00:26:39.603 --> 00:26:43.132 What do I need to add or accommodate? 00:26:43.132 --> 00:26:59.141 You know, to grow the horizons of my understanding, to include some more perspectives, so that next time I actually can notice those things earlier or see that, oh, in that context it works differently. 00:26:59.481 --> 00:27:23.415 Yes, yes, and that habit of mind or that skill seems to me that it would be a wonderful place to begin at least one of the primary topics

that if someone wants to be, you know, a coach, an athlete, you know a healthy human, they have the capacity to engage in that work right. 00:27:23.415 --> 00:27:29.217 Otherwise, as a human, I suffer from self-serving bias oh, it's their fault that I didn't get what I wanted. 00:27:29.217 --> 00:27:38.759 Oh, you know, and it gives away and I miss the opportunity to capture some of that learning or to process some of that learning right. 00:27:39.721 --> 00:27:43.269 Well, and so now we go off a little bit too. 00:27:43.269 --> 00:27:53.000 But another plug for Theo Dawson is she's developed this MindLog program and it's especially designed for young students. 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:54.343 And what it does? 00:27:54.343 --> 00:28:01.922 It allows them to journal about how they're thinking about a given topic and it shows their progress. 00:28:01.922 --> 00:28:22.888 It's like a game Can you get to the next level and you go up and down a bit, but you know, can you get a trajectory and helps them reflect on oh, I see, now I think like this, and it allows me to do these things, and they have a metacognitive kind of feedback mechanism to understand oh, these things are helping me grow. 00:28:23.394 --> 00:28:24.939 So what are those 10 things? 00:28:24.939 --> 00:28:35.528 I mean, you know, again, that's where we should be starting is building the habits of mind that help an individual navigate the world. 00:28:35.528 --> 00:28:42.278 And again, I think philosophers have been struggling with this, Theologians have been struggling with this. 00:28:42.278 --> 00:28:51.297 Again, we probably could just go to some of those individuals and there's probably some really really good clues all of our folks in character and such virtues. 00:28:51.297 --> 00:28:58.344 So maybe it's just that, Maybe it's as simple, Maybe we have Oprah complicated it, Jonathan, and if we just focused on the virtues. 00:29:00.476 --> 00:29:01.617 Well, I listened to. 00:29:01.617 --> 00:29:06.648 The other podcast I listened to all of from the beginning is the Philosophize. 00:29:06.648 --> 00:29:29.529 This Stephen West, and his latest one was on Marcus Aurelius yeah, and talking about the meditations and how it relates to stoicism more broadly and stoic ethics and so on, and part of that, I think, goes to what I come across in lots of different areas. 00:29:29.529 --> 00:29:54.340 There's some fundamental things about kind of cleaning up, so I think, and other people have more things, but there's a simple thing you clean up and grow up and they run concurrently and part of you know what I had here in relation to some of what I think Amal had sent, or maybe Bernd at one point. 00:29:54.535 --> 00:29:57.525 They talk about, well, how do we get leaders to reflect? 00:29:57.525 --> 00:30:05.307 It's important to have them reflect, yes, but what is the thinking used for? 00:30:05.307 --> 00:30:16.361 Are they trying to justify bad decisions and choices and think more complexly about

that, or are they critically looking at? 00:30:16.361 --> 00:30:19.248 What assumptions was I going by here? 00:30:19.248 --> 00:30:28.909 Am I really attached to being right here and, if I step back and allowed myself to admit some failure or being wrong, have some epistemic humility? 00:30:28.909 --> 00:30:30.435 Am I? 00:30:30.537 --> 00:30:38.257 a failure Is my identity crushed that my failure is my identity crushed, right. 00:30:38.257 --> 00:30:54.661 But those kind of things about identity being attached to rightness, yeah, to knowledge, to performance, those are things that can be cleaned up so that you know the notions of self-awareness, for instance. 00:30:54.661 --> 00:30:57.603 This came up in that conversation, it always comes up. 00:30:57.603 --> 00:30:59.003 This is a key skill. 00:30:59.003 --> 00:31:17.457 So Cardin et al did something in the Journal of Management Education two, three years ago, really looking into self-awareness in relation to adult development, relation to adult development. 00:31:17.457 --> 00:31:18.098 And they looked at many things. 00:31:18.118 --> 00:31:19.565 But a simple way to look at it say there's a purpose for self-awareness. 00:31:19.565 --> 00:31:20.709 Why would we want to develop it? 00:31:20.709 --> 00:31:29.016 And we can have all sorts of good reasons, because if we don't understand ourselves, we don't understand the impact we have on others. 00:31:29.016 --> 00:31:34.367 We're creating the weather and we're blissfully ignorant of it and project out and blame everybody, yep. 00:31:34.367 --> 00:31:37.664 But then there's also the components of self-awareness. 00:31:37.835 --> 00:31:44.767 There's intrapersonal things what do we notice about ourselves and our thoughts and our feelings and so on? 00:31:44.767 --> 00:31:49.685 And intrapersonal, we get feedback from others that help us, maybe course correct. 00:31:49.685 --> 00:31:52.001 But then what are the processes? 00:31:52.001 --> 00:31:54.207 How do we become self-aware? 00:31:54.207 --> 00:31:56.156 How do we evaluate those things? 00:31:56.156 --> 00:31:57.259 What kind of processes? 00:31:57.259 --> 00:32:10.229 How do we use attention and metacognition to have a balcony where the self is on the dance floor and we can notice it and not be caught up by it. 00:32:10.229 --> 00:32:12.759 Yeah, yeah. 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.505 Now how do we train you know, those skills? 00:32:15.505 --> 00:32:35.829 There are ways and there are many ways, and so I think what you're pointing to is there's a whole field in terms of leadership development broadly that really needs to look at how do we undo things we've internalized that maybe don't serve us now. 00:32:36.150 --> 00:32:58.603 yes, yes, I mean, and, and I, I, I think that is ever, that's a that that is ever unfolding as you encounter new experiences in life, whether that's transitioning from being single to married, married to having children, different stages of life. 00:32:58.603 --> 00:33:05.885 I mean it's just, it's ever unfolding, that learning about self in these new contexts, in these new situations, it never ends. 00:33:05.885 --> 00:33:29.522 And so it seems to me and again, this is just very simplistic, I'm kind of coming back to it, this is just very simplistic, I'm kind of coming back to it what are those eight or ten master lessons that, if we can teach a human and build the habits of mind they're, they're going to better navigate a number of different situations that they will confront, versus teaching them north houses? 00:33:30.544 --> 00:33:50.019 Sure, and if we took that and turned it again and come back to saying what are the principles and processes we teach students so that they recognize life lessons that are littered all around them all? 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:50.582 the time. 00:33:50.582 --> 00:33:52.345 Yes, the search for the learning. 00:33:52.345 --> 00:33:54.615 It's there, it's right in front of us, there. 00:33:54.736 --> 00:34:03.202 So rather than prescribing what they should pay attention to how do we teach them to pay attention to what's all around them? 00:34:03.202 --> 00:34:05.550 Trying to teach them all the time? 00:34:05.832 --> 00:34:07.957 Yes, I'm not getting the results I want. 00:34:07.957 --> 00:34:21.206 This didn't go how I had planned, this I didn't achieve this and then having that inner mechanism to and the resources I mean again, I've said on the podcast a number of times I have a therapist. 00:34:21.206 --> 00:34:25.563 I've been with him 17 years, had therapists before that for five and six years. 00:34:25.563 --> 00:34:32.483 That's part of my system of processing, of making sense, and it's been incredible. 00:34:32.483 --> 00:34:42.409 I mean it's been so beneficial for me and mentors and conversations like this they help me make sense of right. 00:34:43.556 --> 00:34:44.637 Well, it's like you talk about. 00:34:44.637 --> 00:34:48.967 The podcast may have started as a COVID project, but it's become. 00:34:48.967 --> 00:34:50.981 How can Scott learn in public? 00:34:50.981 --> 00:35:00.277 Yes, how can scott learn in public? 00:35:00.277 --> 00:35:04.606 Yes, as messy as that is, but I think it's that authentic richness and messiness that makes it attractive for people. 00:35:04.606 --> 00:35:17.851 Yeah, yeah, because because it it's, it's, yes, it just okay I'm mindful, though, that there's a whole nother layer of this, that maybe we need another conversation for. 00:35:19.737 --> 00:35:22.628 Well, intrigue me, and then maybe we can come back to that. 00:35:23.630 --> 00:35:33.905 Well, we've talked in some ways about how do you make this training, transfer and break skills down to a level. 00:35:33.905 --> 00:35:47.523 There are ways to talk about that and ways to break them down that we haven't really touched on or gotten into yet and that is kind of the area I've been trying to really explore and understand. 00:35:47.523 --> 00:36:40.204 That is kind of the area

I orchestrate conflict and manage tension and create a holding environment which are really highly chunked, masterful kind of acts of leadership, that the building blocks and experiences along the way to enable that capacity is more explicitly and consciously cultivated. 00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:43.376 Yes, yes, 100%. 00:36:43.376 --> 00:36:48.646 Now for me, put a button on this conversation. 00:36:48.646 --> 00:36:54.722 What's the practical wisdom in the conversation we've just had, Jonathan, Because I'm afraid to do that. 00:36:55.710 --> 00:36:55.990 Yeah. 00:36:55.990 --> 00:36:57.775 So this is your post-reflection. 00:36:57.775 --> 00:36:59.398 You're saying no, no, let's do it now. 00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:06.012 Yes, I'm thinking about your energy thing. 00:37:06.373 --> 00:37:17.945 I'm thinking about that, I think yeah, the practical wisdom is, in a sense, that it starts with us and it starts with getting our own house in order. 00:37:17.945 --> 00:37:34.617 And you know, when you started quoting me on leaders create the weather, I started, oh, I got to unpack that more and there's a whole lot that I realized that can be unpacked from that and we can talk about that more too. 00:37:34.617 --> 00:37:54.184 But how do we take something that's soft and fuzzy, so to speak, like that it's very subtle in a sense and bring it down to the level of scaffoldable skill training that builds leadership capacities? 00:37:55.771 --> 00:38:21.139 And for me, one major, significant, perhaps most important domain is do I have a human that is the best possible version of themselves in this moment, and they've cleaned up, and they've grown up and they're in that continual process to be of service to others? 00:38:21.139 --> 00:38:32.590 And if I'm not, then that energy that shows up, if I'm not, then that attention that shows up, that Well. 00:38:33.092 --> 00:38:44.329 So I'll give you a simple example, because I used to do the leadership circle, training and certifications, and they talk about the reactive tendencies coming out of Karen Horney's work. 00:38:44.329 --> 00:38:47.820 What are the ways we make ourselves safe in the world early? 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:48.650 What are the strategies? 00:38:48.650 --> 00:38:50.197 Do we comply with others? 00:38:50.197 --> 00:38:59.358 Do we protect ourselves by being right and distant and critical, or do we use power over and control and be ambitious and autocratic? 00:38:59.358 --> 00:39:16.619 And what I would often say is there's two things going on when that underlying strategy is triggered, your energy is hooked by that and it creates noise. 00:39:16.619 --> 00:39:22.815 So what gets communicated is the underlying fear energy that drives those strategies. 00:39:22.815 --> 00:39:36.643 And so when people are hearing your message, you may have good intentions and brilliant things to say, but what they hear starts in their heart with the noise and it makes it hard, and then it filters the actual message. 00:39:36.643 --> 00:39:38.385 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:39.465 --> 00:39:42.056 So let's pause there for now. 00:39:42.056 --> 00:39:48.034 I think listeners have plenty to think about, jonathan, as always. 00:39:48.034 --> 00:39:51.181 Thank you, we're going to revisit this. 00:39:51.181 --> 00:39:52.090 We'll do a part two. 00:39:52.090 --> 00:40:02.221 So, for listeners, if this is your first episode, look forward to next week, and if this is the well, this would be the first episode if they're listening right now. 00:40:02.221 --> 00:40:10.829 So then, if you're listening to this in the future, there is a second episode and a second conversation, episode 301. 00:40:10.829 --> 00:40:13.536 Everyone, as always, thank you so much for checking in. 00:40:13.536 --> 00:40:16.262 Thank you, jonathan, thank you Scott.

I-edit ang transcript