KOPYA NG SALIN 🔗
WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:03.160
This is our glass on this American life, one that
2
00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:06.360
we like. It's a good mystery. Sometimes it's about really
3
00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:10.279
big things, but most times the little mysteries are the best.
4
00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:13.119
Are Lost and Found is currently filled with pants. I
5
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.560
don't know what I've never seen this happen.
6
00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:16.600
That's true.
7
00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:17.519
This is true.
8
00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:22.640
Mysteries of every size each week, This American Life. Wherever
9
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:24.199
you get your podcasts.
10
00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:28.960
At NPR, there's a little something for everyone. If you
11
00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:32.039
need advice for that big life change, try listening to
12
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:34.200
Life Kit. If you want to know more about that
13
00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:37.200
new TV show, check out pop Culture Happy Hour. And
14
00:00:37.240 --> 00:00:39.719
if you want to dive deeper into your favorite podcasts
15
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:43.679
and enjoy perks like bonus episodes, archive access, and more,
16
00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:47.880
check out NPR Plus. Find out more and support the
17
00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:51.479
shows you love at plus dot npr dot org.
18
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:05.040
Scientists know that our microbiome, it's not just involved in digestion.
19
00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.719
It's intimately linked with so much of our overall health.
20
00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:14.359
It influences our immune system, our mental health, our cognition,
21
00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:17.280
and much much more. Some of these links are only
22
00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.040
beginning to be fully revealed.
23
00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:20.599
You're listening to Life Kit.
24
00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:25.840
I'm Mariyel Sagata and that was NPR Health correspondent Will Stone.
25
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:29.319
The gut microbiome is a way of describing the literally
26
00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:32.400
trillions of microbes that populate our intestines.
27
00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.079
A lot of these are bacteria, but we also have
28
00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:39.879
other organisms in there, fungi and viruses. So you want
29
00:01:39.879 --> 00:01:43.760
to picture this packed, dense ecosystem that's alive within you.
30
00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:47.640
Now, given what scientists are discovering that the microbiome is
31
00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:50.840
important to our health, people want to hack it. They
32
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:56.680
want to have the very best, healthiest microbiome possible, Will says.
33
00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.000
The problem is the science hasn't come quite that far yet.
34
00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.439
Scientists haven't quite figured out how to even define what
35
00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:08.400
is a healthy microbiome. There's a lot of variability when
36
00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:11.000
you look around the world, depending on where you live,
37
00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.800
your diet, all kinds of things, and so unless you
38
00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:18.840
are acutely ill and you are having symptoms, it's hard
39
00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.120
to pin down what is healthy.
40
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.680
We do have some clues though. It seems that the
41
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.840
more diverse your gut bacteria are, the better. Also, if
42
00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:31.240
your microbiome bounces back well from disruption like antibiotic use,
43
00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:32.199
that's a good sign.
44
00:02:32.639 --> 00:02:35.599
And another area that scientists can look at are the
45
00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.800
different groups of bacteria that are present in your microbiome,
46
00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.840
and we know that some are associated with better health
47
00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:44.840
when you look around the world. You see this.
48
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.280
On this episode of Life Kit Best Practices for your
49
00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:55.120
Gut Microbiome. I talked to Will about probiotic supplements, microbiome tests,
50
00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:58.479
and what you eat, which is still the most important factor.
51
00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:10.919
Here forty eight teams.
52
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:12.439
We want to be one of the soccer power houses
53
00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:13.120
that people talk.
54
00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:14.400
About sixteen cities.
55
00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.039
The joy of the World Cup is that it holds up
56
00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:19.560
a mirror to the society that surrounds it.
57
00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:20.800
One beautiful game.
58
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.000
I think everyone knows that nothing is like a World
59
00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:24.439
Cup game.
60
00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:26.919
The World Cup is here and we have you covered.
61
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:30.479
Follow along on and off the pitch with the npr APP.
62
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:38.159
Cyber scams cost Americans more than twenty billion dollars last year.
63
00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:40.639
But who are the people doing the scamming?
64
00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:42.680
I never knew, did you better?
65
00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:44.080
I was going to be doing on.
66
00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.159
The Sunday Story, an exclusive two part series on the
67
00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.360
global scam industry from the point of view of the
68
00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:54.240
scammers themselves. Listen now to The Sunday Story from up
69
00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:55.759
first on the npr.
70
00:03:55.479 --> 00:04:00.080
APP hi It's Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air. He
71
00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.280
take a break from the twenty four hour news cycle
72
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:05.280
with us and listen to long form interviews with your
73
00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:09.960
favorite authors, actors, filmmakers, comedians, and musicians, the people making
74
Load full transcript
00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.199
the art that nourishes us and speaks to our times.
75
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.600
So listen to the Fresh Air podcast from NPR and whyy.
76
00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.319
It's easy to feel overwhelmed by skincare advice. Somewhere along
77
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.199
the way, skincare got complicated and started to feel like
78
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.480
a job. But what products and treatments will actually lead
79
00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:33.120
to healthier skin life? Git made a special newsletter series
80
00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:36.040
to answer that question. Sign up at NPR dot org
81
00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:39.199
slash skincare or find the link in the description for
82
00:04:39.240 --> 00:04:49.839
this episode. Well, there's a huge market for gut microbiome tests.
83
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:51.720
Are any of these worth spending money on?
84
00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:56.000
The short answer is generally no, at least when you
85
00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.120
look around the huge variety of products out there. It's
86
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.800
because they tend to overstate the science and be way
87
00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:07.120
ahead of the evidence. So just to run through a
88
00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:09.920
couple of these, You have these gut microbiome tests that
89
00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:12.879
you can buy. They're quite popular, and this isn't a
90
00:05:12.920 --> 00:05:15.560
test that your doctor orders because they think you have
91
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.319
some illness. This is a test you would get commercially
92
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.040
a couple hundred dollars to try to maybe optimize your
93
00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:24.959
microbiome or figure out what's wrong with it on your own.
94
00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:29.439
They'll give you hundreds of different measurements, and it looks
95
00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:34.120
pretty legit. I talked to doctor Alexander Koritz about them.
96
00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:38.279
He's a gi specialist and researcher at the University of Minnesota.
97
00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.079
He says he'll get patients who are worried about their
98
00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.079
gut health, maybe they'll have some symptoms, and they'll send
99
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:44.879
him their results.
100
00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.560
He usually comes as an entire book, colorful with many,
101
00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:56.319
many entries of different bacterial species, fungal species, different tabolites.
102
00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.600
And I think the message the patient gets, well, gee,
103
00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:04.240
my doctor never did this kind of test thing, this,
104
00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.879
this amount of information, this is this looks very impressive.
105
00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:14.759
It must mean something, And the reality is it's unfortunately,
106
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.199
it's not very informative at all.
107
00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.639
And the fundamental problem is when we already discussed, which
108
00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:23.639
is we don't have a definite consensus on what even
109
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:27.600
is a healthy microbiome. But beyond that, we've also seen
110
00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.959
research that's shown the same patient with the same sample
111
00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.759
can send it to different companies and they get very
112
00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:38.360
different results. So it's not just interpretation. It's also kind
113
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.839
of the reliability and variability you can get when you
114
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:41.879
go out onto the market.
115
00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.879
Okay, so don't bother with the tests. And what about
116
00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.240
supplements like probiotics. For instance, if you walk into a
117
00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.000
health food store, there'll be shelves of many different probiotic
118
00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:56.959
capsules you can choose from.
119
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.720
Yeah, and it can be pretty confusing, you know, to
120
00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:03.079
figure out is any of this worth my money? Now,
121
00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:08.600
probiotics can be helpful in specific circumstances, so for example,
122
00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.319
there's good evidence they can be beneficial for reducing the
123
00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:16.279
risk of diarrhea associated with antibiotic use, also for preventing
124
00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:20.680
traveler's diarrhea, or for preterm infants who are at risk of complications.
125
00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.240
These are a few examples where we have better data.
126
00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:27.079
But beyond that, the idea that most people who are
127
00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:30.920
otherwise healthy should be taking a probiotic daily to support
128
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:34.199
their gut health, it's really not backed by science yet.
129
00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:37.600
There may be a day where we actually have more
130
00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.720
targeted probiotics that can help people, but we are just
131
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:42.000
not at that point yet.
132
00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:46.240
And for the cases that you mentioned, it's only certain
133
00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.120
strains that help with those things, right, Like, you need
134
00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:53.879
to pay attention to which strain you're using if you
135
00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:57.079
want to, for instance, prevent traveler's diarrhea.
136
00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:01.000
That's right. Certain strains have been tested in high quality
137
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.040
trials and been shown to be effective. One point that
138
00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.199
was made to me was you'll see sometimes marketing on
139
00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:12.079
these probiotics saying clinically tested. That didn't say they were effective,
140
00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:14.439
It just said they were tested. So you have to
141
00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:18.160
be mindful about what's actually being promised here and then
142
00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.800
what can be delivered by the evidence. I spoke to
143
00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:23.399
Hannah Holscher about this. She's at the University of Illinois
144
00:08:23.480 --> 00:08:26.920
Orbana Champaign, and she pointed me to a website called
145
00:08:27.079 --> 00:08:31.240
Usprobioticguide dot com that outlines in a very simple way
146
00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:34.120
the levels of evidence for each strain that's been studied
147
00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:35.559
and for which conditions.
148
00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.639
Okay, so what can people do, if anything, to try
149
00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:44.279
to optimize their gut microbiome.
150
00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.200
Yeah, the first place to start, and how you can
151
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:51.279
make the most difference by far isn't any special gut
152
00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:55.200
hack or magic solution. It's simple stuff that all of
153
00:08:55.320 --> 00:08:58.200
us already know we should be doing for our overall health,
154
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.960
and that's because our gut microbiome evolved with us and
155
00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:06.799
when we are healthy and thriving, so to our gut bacteria.
156
00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.720
Take a listen to doctor Fergus Shanahan. He's at the
157
00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.919
National Institute of Ireland and Cork and a longtime researcher
158
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:13.799
and gut health.
159
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.799
Like good sleep, plenty of exercise, fresh air, good food,
160
00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:22.399
good food meaning real food and not lots of low
161
00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.879
fiber ultra processed foods. Your mother probably told you all
162
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.279
these things in different language, but all the things you
163
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.879
were ever told, they're all good for your microbiome as well.
164
00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.960
There isn't any need for some health guru to come
165
00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.679
along and say, oh, I've got some major potion now
166
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.320
that's going to improve your microbiome.
167
00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:43.240
Basically, he's like the gut researchers don't have some secret
168
00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.440
that they've been keeping from us that we all should know.
169
00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:47.919
It's just not the case yet.
170
00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:51.639
Any specifics that you learned about diet what we should
171
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.399
be eating.
172
00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.159
Yeah, number one, without a doubt fiber and folks may
173
00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:58.519
have heard this, but most of us do not get
174
00:09:58.600 --> 00:10:00.840
enough fiber just in the and real kind of Western
175
00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.120
diet than most of us have. So you want to
176
00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.919
aim for anywhere from about twenty grams a day to
177
00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.320
forty depending on your age and sex. Thirty five grams
178
00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:13.200
is generally a good target. And it's not only the
179
00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:15.519
quantity of fiber. You want to make sure you're eating
180
00:10:15.559 --> 00:10:19.399
different types of fiber because this diversity in your diet
181
00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:22.919
ends up really supporting the microbes in your gut. I
182
00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.720
spoke to Hannah Holscher about this, and here's the advice
183
00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:26.159
she gave.
184
00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:29.480
If you picture the rainbow of types of foods that
185
00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.879
you can eat, fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, and legomes,
186
00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.639
you're going to see all of these different colors of
187
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.480
the rainbow. And that means these foods have different phytonutrients
188
00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.600
in them, and they have different fibers. And just like
189
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:45.200
an apple tastes very different from an orange and tastes
190
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:48.440
different from an avocado or broccoli, you know, they have
191
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.399
different fibers in them and different phytoonutrients, and different microbes
192
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.720
can go in and use those fibers as energy sources.
193
00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:00.840
Hannah has spent a lot of time doing well controlled
194
00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.879
trials where they feed people different foods and then see
195
00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:08.120
how that can influence your gut microbiome. One example, they
196
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.559
did a trial with walnuts and they found that it
197
00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:15.080
enriched a bacteria called rose Buria, which is beneficial and
198
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:17.879
linked to positive health. We do have some data showing
199
00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:22.799
that fermented food in particular can be pretty beneficial for
200
00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:28.679
lowering inflammation and overall gut microbiome diversity in health. So
201
00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:33.080
these are things like sauer kraut, kim chi, yogurt, but
202
00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:36.360
you want to look and see whether the yogurt has
203
00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:40.360
live cultures of bacteria in it, not highly processed kinds
204
00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:43.080
of yogurt with sugar and they don't actually have bacteria
205
00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:47.440
in it. Those are a couple examples of beneficial probiotics
206
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:48.960
that you can get from your food.
207
00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:53.360
Okay, and then is there anything that people should avoid
208
00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.399
to help their gut microbiome?
209
00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:59.679
Yeah, so probably no big surprise here unless you really
210
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:04.080
need it. Antibiotics tend to be overused, overprescribed, so try
211
00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:08.440
to avoid those when not necessary. Beyond that, Hannah and
212
00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.159
others brought up some of the usual culprits we hear
213
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.240
when we talk about other issues with our health foods,
214
00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:19.519
like highly refined sugary that are low in fiber, sometimes
215
00:12:19.559 --> 00:12:22.080
called ultra processed foods. You want to try to keep
216
00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:25.679
those to a minimum. And you know, she's an advocate
217
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.320
of moderation. You know, doesn't really think people need to
218
00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:32.080
be extreme here, but she says as much as you can. Unfortunately,
219
00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:35.559
alcohol is not great for our gut, and you know
220
00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:38.320
best to avoid that if you're concerned about supporting your
221
00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:42.080
gut microbiome. Will Stone, thank you so much, thanks for
222
00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:48.080
having me. It was fun all right.
223
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:48.960
Time for a recap.
224
00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.879
Don't bother spending money on a gut microbiome test. They
225
00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.600
overstate the science and they're way ahead of the evidence.
226
00:12:56.519 --> 00:12:59.519
Some probiotic supplements have been shown to help with particular
227
00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:03.840
problem like travelers diarrhea and diarrhea associated with antibiotic use,
228
00:13:04.159 --> 00:13:06.799
but the idea that most people who are otherwise healthy
229
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.679
should be taking a probiotic daily to support their gut
230
00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:13.240
health is not backed by science yet. We'll drop the
231
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:15.519
names of a couple strains that are well studied in
232
00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:17.559
the show notes, and you can also check out a
233
00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:22.679
website called Usprobiotic guide dot com, which outlines the levels
234
00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.519
of evidence for each strain that's been studied and for
235
00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:29.360
which conditions. Now, the researchers who study the guts say
236
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:31.600
the best thing you can do for your gut microbiome
237
00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.840
is eat enough fiber a day that's about twenty to
238
00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.279
forty grams a day, depending on your age and sex.
239
00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.159
Eat fermented foods like kimchi and yogurt, Cut down on
240
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.120
ultraprocessed foods and alcohol, and only take antibiotics when you
241
00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.440
really need them. Also, get enough sleep and exercise.
242
00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:53.159
All right, that's our show.
243
00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.480
By the way, your phone is full of distractions, make
244
00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.080
sure it's full of good tips and practical advice too.
245
00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.559
The NPA app gives you access to world class reporting
246
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.039
like what we have on Life Kit without a paywall,
247
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:07.879
and with our push notifications, we'll keep you up to
248
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:13.200
date to the second download the NPR app today. This
249
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:15.919
episode of Life Kit was produced by Margaret Serino. It
250
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.200
was edited by Megan Kin, Carmel Roth, and Lauren Gonzalez.
251
00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.519
Our digital editor is Malica garib and our visuals editor
252
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:22.879
is c J.
253
00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:23.440
Rikolon.
254
00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.919
Our production team also includes Andy Tago, Claire Marie Schneider,
255
00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:30.879
and Sylvia Douglas. Engineering support comes from Peter Alena. Fact
256
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:35.360
checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzsaldo. I'm Marie el Sagara, Thanks
257
00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:35.879
for listening.
258
00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.000
I'm consider this NPR's afternoon news podcast. We cover everything
259
00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:50.080
from politics, to the economy to the world, but every
260
00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.279
story starts with a question, and NPR we stand for
261
00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:56.919
your right to be curious. It makes sense if the
262
00:14:56.960 --> 00:14:59.559
biggest story of the day and what it means for
263
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:04.039
you follow consider this wherever you get your podcasts.
264
00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:07.519
This week on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me, we ask
265
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:10.320
comedy legend Robert Smigel about the moment he first knew
266
00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:11.240
he was funny.
267
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.679
When I was like four or five, I could draw
268
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.759
really well, so I could draw Fred Flintstone and Snoopy,
269
00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.960
and then probably a couple of years later, I started
270
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:22.240
drawing them having sex.
271
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.120
Listen to the Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me podcast and
272
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:29.039
the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.