Jakson Rob Ferrone – From a 300-Person Consultancy to Starting Again täydellinen litterointi

collaboration. 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:31.920 So companies who create complex products, whether it's automotive, aerospace, they have tools and and processes through which they develop products and manufacture them. 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:36.720 And um I used to describe it as product data plumbing. 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.519 So the the way that people communicated to each other was having a shared understanding of the product definition. 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:49.439 And anyway, even though you had it was like broken plumbing, and therefore we we created this profession which was really product data plumbers. 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:56.879 Um, we called them product data management professionals, and they they would get in there very operationally, you know, sleeves rolled up, but they were very bright people. 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:11.279 So it was like consultants, but were you know supporting from an operating perspective, and they brought the they improved the the situation either by being there or by making permanent changes to the way that processes, the systems and tools that were being used. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:23.360 And just because I think it might have a bearing on what we're gonna talk about later about what where your focus is now, kind of the my understanding is there's a good bit of kind of PLM and product lifecycle management system implementation that you worked alongside. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:24.000 Is that correct? 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:25.360 Yeah, so exactly. 00:05:25.519 --> 00:05:34.480 So part of you know, the so the the organizations either had existing infrastructure architecture, and many of them wanted to then improve it. 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:44.639 Um they were either thinking about putting in a new system or new architecture, or they were in the process of doing it, or they'd they'd just done it and they wanted to then bring it to life. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:53.360 So yeah, we had a lot of exposure to customers that were doing transformations, digital transformations and and and all the complexities that go along with that. 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:54.079 Excellent. 00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:57.199 And that's we'll we'll leave that there as a teaser for what we're gonna talk about in a bit. 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:57.839 Oh, great. 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.319 So um deal completes in 2019, word earn out to work through. 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:04.959 And at the end of that, I guess there's kind of decision to make. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:10.879 And so when you got to the end of the earnout, what were you weighing up about whether to stay or go? 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:19.759 Yeah, I mean, it was I I think for all founders that have been there from the beginning, and that of, you know, uh it for me, that was everything I knew. 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:27.600 So um had a very, very strong connection to the the company, and and I and it was part of me, you know. 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:30.560 It was people talk about

family, and it was like that. 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:42.639 The people that you work with, you're so close to, you've been through everything together over decades, and therefore, um there's yeah, it's it's not a job, it's it's really um yeah, part of you. 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:59.839 And and so part of it, I think, was was personal, part of it was then the you know, for the company itself, because what for for all those years, you've been the person at the top, you've been the leader, you've been you know the founder and people kind of defer to you, and that's great. 00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:05.360 And we've always practiced you know servant leadership and and giving people autonomy and empowering them. 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:21.040 But at some point as well, I was thinking maybe by being here, I'm actually you know stifling the chances of the people um the next level down in order to kind of step into our shoes and and and also the when you get acquired, obviously the business becomes more like a business. 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:45.600 And and I think our company was quite unique in the sense that we even though we were business savvy and we had business success, really are we we somehow always put people first, and then of course, when you get acquired, naturally it becomes more of a business, and and for many good reasons, and that's a very positive thing, then it the the nature, the flavor of the experience changes slightly. 00:07:45.680 --> 00:07:56.959 And then, and also you when you've been doing it for a long time, you you know, you get tired and maybe you lose a bit of passion, and therefore you start thinking about am I bringing my best to this endeavor? 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:01.920 And and you know, am I driving it with the same passion that I did for the last you know 20 years? 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:04.480 And then um, yeah, so there's there's two sides. 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.360 Uh, is is it good for the business and there's is this good for me? 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:12.160 And am I tired and am I and you know, do I think sometimes it's good just to stop? 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:13.600 And that was one of the questions. 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.040 Do you ramp down or do you stop entirely? 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:25.519 And that and I I wrestled with that for a long time, and then I thought, okay, the best thing for me would be to do a hard cut. 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:31.680 How do you think that whether it's your specific situation or maybe kind of like more generally? 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:45.600 How do you kind of think the founder's reasoning and thinking sits alongside what maybe the acquirer, I think it was Alton in your case, might be might be thinking about and wanting as they make observations about the team they've bought. 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:56.960 Yeah, I mean, so the the uh one of the reasons why Alton acquired us um was not only for the company and and um the capability, but the the leadership team as well. 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.879 So that was um, you know, and we've got a really good relationship with them. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.759 I I really like the leadership team there. 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:17.360 And uh that was also that's what made the decision challenging, is because we had, you know, it wasn't just any more leaving quick release, but it was also then leaving the relationships and the and the um you know the outend group. 00:09:17.600 --> 00:09:28.879 So yeah, that did um and and and obviously they want they've invested not only in the company but in us, and therefore they could they want to keep us on board and and you know, so it was um I think that made it harder as well. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:59.600 So I guess for anybody who might be in a similar situation to you, either thinking about kind of I'm working towards an exit, I'm thinking about kind of what's life going to be like in an urnout, like kind of, I guess either in the kind of pre-deal or kind of post-deal period, what based on what you've kind of gone through and experienced, what are things that you'd tell other founders, other leaders that they really should get, they should think about in advance and get kind of firm in their own heads or firm in the deal structure before they sign on the dotted law? 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:01.039 Yeah, I think there's a number of things. 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:07.519 I remember this being quite odd for Alton, but we actually said to ourselves, under what conditions would we sell? 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:18.320 And so we we created a short list of the things that we'd want in terms of autonomy to run the business and keeping the brand, et cetera, and um and and and we had a you know target value, et cetera. 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:30.320 But we, as part of the, you know, there's this huge due diligence process, which is obviously you know, it's very, you know, financially focused and and and um you know standards, et cetera. 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:40.320 But we wanted to do some due diligence on on our time from the perspective of you know who's this company that's acquiring us, like what are the people like, you know, are they are they good people? 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:50.480 And we I remember flying to Toulouse to meet you know some of the leadership team there, and then also some of the companies they'd acquire just to get a feeling of like what life would be like under Alten. 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:57.519 And and I remember some of the people in Alton who are they're just a huge organization, so they're they're just very you know the business heavy. 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:09.759 And then you had this small company who was us, you know, doing this reverse due diligence, but it wasn't commercial due diligence, it was you know quite soft, touchy-feely stuff, and and it and and they they couldn't understand what we were doing. 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:27.200 And so that but but it was you know, it worked, it it was valuable because

but uh through the whole process, you know, because it's quite a high pressure process, and and um so you also then get to see you know who who the people are that are acquiring you and are they only business focused? 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:32.720 Are they genuine people, you know, and and you get to see what what they're like in terms of pragmatism? 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.759 So I think that's really important part of it. 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:42.399 And and also all of us having looking each other in the eyes and saying, okay, what if this happens, what does this mean for us? 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:51.600 Like what uh honestly speaking, like you know, are we all are we all gonna stick around, you know, is there anyone here that just wants to get it done and go? 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.840 You know, and and that I think that was a really important conversation to have and and you know, being genuinely open and honest with each other. 00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:04.240 And um, and we you know, we were all in it to make something better and actually take the company to the next level. 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.399 That was the thing that was I think the most exciting one. 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:18.559 So I think there was there's genuine appetite to to see this as an opportunity not only to kind of exit um in and and cash uh some of the value, but but then also to take the company to the next level. 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.120 So that was I think part of the thinking. 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.039 Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense. 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:33.440 So I guess changing gears a bit, something you said to me when you've spoken before was gonna go people always want the history and the founder story, and nobody really talks about what happens when the money's in the bank and what comes next. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:34.720 So let's do that a bit a bit. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:43.440 When you left in 2024, kind of what were those first weeks and months actually like once you properly stepped away? 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:50.559 Initially, I'd say it felt a bit like you when you go on holiday, where you you know you kind of shut shut down your inbox and and uh leave. 00:12:50.720 --> 00:13:00.240 But there was um some of it was was a bit scary because you were letting go of things that you know you you you knew that there'd be no going back to it. 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:09.200 But um the I think we had a we we just moved house the year before and there was a we had a big project in the house, and so therefore that gave me something to focus on. 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:29.600 And and also then I'd always promise that you know the family had always been in second place, and so I'd promised the family that they would get my full concentration, and and I said to my wife that she could then um focus on her job, and and so therefore I had this kind of new mission of the projects at the house, you know, running that the house, uh all the day-to-day stuff, which I've got a new found respect for. 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:48.639 And so that that kept it's amazing how the vacuum is so quickly filled with stuff, and um, and so you're you're a little bit distracted to start with, but there's something that creeps in that is is I don't know if it's subconscious, but it's not so obvious. 00:13:48.879 --> 00:14:04.799 But you then start to, you know, you have you're busy, so you're distracted, but then it's you then start to because you've always been busy, you've always been, you've had stuff in front of you to, you know, like crisis, customer meetings, winning new business, team challenges. 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:12.000 And then when that's not there, you you then you know start to that's missing, and that somehow affects you. 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:18.159 And so you then start to say, okay, so what do I what do I do with my time? 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:19.840 Uh, what's the best focus? 00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:21.600 And you and you you end up being a bit lost. 00:14:21.679 --> 00:14:31.120 It's like being, I don't know, spat out of a a water slide, and you just get dumped into this pool, and then you're wondering, okay, what now and then you start to think about, well, who who am I? 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:38.639 You know, I've I've had this success for the company, but what relevance do I now play to you know the the economy and the and the world and and the people in it? 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:41.759 And and what you know, I'm too young to retire. 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:42.799 You know, what do I do? 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.559 And and then I've never had a CV uh as such. 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:51.200 I've never, you know, it's like what what is the next step if I if I'm gonna do something? 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:52.720 What is it an employee? 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.279 Is it uh you know, business leader again? 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.279 Is it being an entrepreneur? 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:10.320 I think that the risk is is that you end up g feeling quite glum, you know, and there's a there's this somehow, yeah, you're because your identity is so strongly connected to the company, all of a sudden when that when you you know when who are you? 00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:21.039 I'm I'm the one of the the founders of Quick Race, when that is no longer you know present, it's a historical fact, then yeah, you you you've kind of lost a little bit of your identity, I think. 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:28.320 And I mean you said to me before that you know you felt quite you've said just now glum kind of that that was a real kind of low point. 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.120 Like I guess what what was that like? 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:32.799 How is that manifesting itself? 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:41.279 And yeah, I I think it was it must have been like subconscious, or it was something internal, and it it changes the way you perceive the world. 00:15:41.440 --> 00:16:18.480 And I I don't know, I find it hard to

talk about because uh it's let's say I I don't have a uh deep emotional language because I'm always quite pragmatic and you know have this engineer in mind, and so yeah, just it's something that that was just around me and and just so I I had this filter almost on the on the world, and um and I and I just and I um I think the thing is uh other people saw it, and so you know, particularly my wife, she she kind of realized that I needed something, and I and uh yeah, and so and so she was um yeah, one of the people to kind of highlight it and say and start talking about it and saying, you know, what what what are you gonna do? 00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:26.799 And and she was the one that was then prompting me to think about yeah, what what and and I and I had and I didn't have any structure. 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:43.840 I know I know people, for example, that have had long careers in the same company, and when they've when they've left, they actually went about the process quite structured in a structured way, and they they got they got help and coaching and and and I didn't have any of that, and I didn't have a framework, you know, to think about what I'd do. 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:52.080 And um I've always been a bit like that where I figure things out myself, but because I didn't have that framework, I wasn't so I anyway. 00:16:52.240 --> 00:17:04.079 So I started talking to people, and I think that was quite helpful because then when you talk to people, you can start to understand your own thinking, and then maybe something we can talk about next is is the types of things I started doing. 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:04.640 Yeah. 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:09.599 And just before we do that, you mentioned kind of family income second. 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:11.599 That was something like that. 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:25.039 And interestingly, I had a conversation on another episode recently with with another founder who talked about the kind of reality of what that had been like to her and the intensity and the kind of some of the some of the choices you have to make. 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:37.759 Like how easy is it for you to kind of acknowledge and how did that feel for your family, like knowing that kind of the business had been first and family second, and and what did it feel like to then try to get out of that? 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:42.559 Because I suspect that's common for lots of people, even if they don't, if they're not quite prepared to say it. 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:49.039 Yeah, I mean, it it was this it's almost unwritten understanding between my me and my wife. 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:51.680 Just because it's understood, it didn't make it any better, you know. 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:59.759 It didn't, it's not suddenly it doesn't suddenly feel good that I have to not attend something because I have to be, you know, somewhere else in the world. 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:06.799 I think I noticed it with my children most actually, because I've got three children that are you know almost like six years apart. 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:14.400 And so the oldest one who is my first child, you know, I I I was working really intensely when when he was there. 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:20.240 So I I I got some time with him, but it it wasn't enough and I wasn't you know as involved in his development. 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:24.559 And the but the second child, I think I had a bit more time and I was a bit more engaged. 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:30.960 But for example, the third one that's four years old now, I've had a lot more time with her in uh in her development. 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:38.880 And and and I think that's the that's the most obvious for me comparison between the different stages. 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:59.200 And the other thing it was then having you know gone into this role of being the person in the house that was was responsible for you know getting the kids off to school in kindergarten, that you know, loading the dishwasher and unloading it, you know, five times a day, you suddenly realize all of the micro stuff that has to happen every day just to stand still. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:11.759 And it's like Groundhog Day because you think, you know, the first day you think, right, I've done a great job of you know, everything's organized, and then you, you know, and then you wake up the next day and it's like, oh, hold on a minute, I have to do that again, just to stand still. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:17.839 And so you're not really you know achieving anything or improving anything, you're just maintaining the status quo. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:22.880 So then then, yeah, it's just like I said, there's this newfound respect for just what it takes. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:40.640 And I and I think, you know, the way the world is, women, wives, they they carry a lot of that load, and I I think the it's just underappreciated, and I think you know, guys have to live that themselves to to see how thankless that is, that kind of that work. 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.119 So let's talk about kind of how you got into to what came next. 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:49.680 How did the shape of what you were what you're doing now start to emerge? 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:55.200 Do you I was thinking about this, and have you seen the film Signs, the M Ri Shannon film? 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:03.680 There's a there's a film called Signs, and it's um in the film uh it's about a family, and and there's things that happen in the family that seem strange. 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:12.160 And for example, one of the child children has like a severe asthma, and they're saying, you know, they're saying, Why why is why have we been unfortunate? 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.359 Why does this child have asthma? 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:22.000 There's another child that like leave glas leaves glasses of water everywhere, and they they just think it's um you know odd or or like um some kind of negative. 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:28.960

But at the end of the film, you realize that all of those things are actually not coincidental, but that they're there for a reason. 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:43.680 And anyway, that it made me think about what what I was doing because I I was connecting with people, I still kept active in my my PLM network, and but I was also then exposing myself to new new things, new people. 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:56.720 For example, the there's a um consulting leaders community, you know, I started doing some work in the uh consulting, equity and growth space, and and it all it all seemed quite fragmented. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.200 And I remember at the time when people were asking me, you know, what are you up to? 00:20:59.279 --> 00:20:59.920 How's things going? 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:08.400 And I'm I was saying, uh, yes, I'm this I'm spinning a lot of plates, or this, there's a lot going on, but I can't quite see how it all fits together. 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:23.119 And then things started to coalesce and and and begin to form in shape, and then and then I realized, okay, there's actually been meaning in all of these types of activities, and it's been leading to something. 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:24.559 And that was quite interesting. 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:35.279 So I think creating space to yeah, just being open to opportunities and creating space, and then and then it will help you find what the next thing is that you're you're passionate about. 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:46.319 So you mentioned staying kind of active in the PLM world, and we've talked in the past about kind of your view that kind of PLM system in particular implementations in particular are kind of consistently painful. 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:55.519 I guess how did that kind of thinking start to to to develop and where did that, how does that fit into we're going to get to to what you're doing now shortly. 00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.759 So it's it's interesting because I've any kind of system implementation is. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.400 Painful. 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:10.880 And I've always having created this niche uh profession, I realized that was part, you know, people are always part of the solution in terms of bringing these things to life. 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:20.640 But especially when it comes to system implementations, transformations, always felt that I think everyone knows that it's painful and that and that you don't always get the results that you intended to. 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:24.960 And it's a lot, it's it's like challenging, I think, for any organization. 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.960 And and one of the reasons is the solution design itself, and the other one is the adoption. 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:36.960 And I think the root cause for both of those things is the engagement with the people that need to be using the system. 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:44.559 And I I've, you know, so many of the times I've seen something being created and then pushed onto the people and saying, right, accept this, work in this way. 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:52.640 And they're saying, Well, this doesn't fit with our reality, or this is it, it's we're not just resisting, you know, it just doesn't work for us. 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:59.839 It does, you know, this is and you destroy the value for the business, and it's a lot more painful than it should should be, and it takes longer to get to the value. 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.079 And and that's so I took anyway. 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:07.440 The way I was solving that in the past was with quick release, which was services and people and consulting. 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:13.759 But I took a step back and I was looking at it and saying, and and and then you know, uh the power of AI started to emerge. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:19.920 And so I was thinking, ideally, you'd you'd you'd sit down with everyone in the organization and say, talk to me about your work. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.440 Like, what do you how do you work? 00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:34.079 What systems are you using, which processes, how do you know what to do, what bugs you, what works very well, what would make, you know, where where could we improve your work and and save you time and and improve things for the company? 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:45.039 And yeah, so imagine if you could do all of that for everyone and then somehow create, you know, create the architecture in the organization that that helps them be the best version of themselves. 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:50.480 But until now, you can't do that because it's it's too costly, it's too concise, time consuming, and too complex. 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:54.480 And I I just thought that that's the perfect use case for AI. 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:58.160 And that's um that kind of leads into where I am. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.039 And so that has led to drum roll? 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:01.759 What are you doing now? 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.960 Yeah, that's so yeah, that's led to um the creation of a company called Reacher. 00:24:07.279 --> 00:24:20.240 So I um through the leaders in consulting community, I was introduced to someone, his name's Robert Schwabenhauser, and um we got talking and and he comes from a transformation background as well. 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:26.720 And um we we both had a similar idea, and you know, he's been involved in AI for for years now. 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.480 Um, I think one of the uh kind of early adopters. 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:39.359 And so we we both realized that we had the same thinking, and we said, Oh, this this would be you know great, great idea for a product or a capability. 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:44.880 And yeah, so we started um talking and working on it together, and we said let's let's make something of this. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:53.519 And then um, yeah, recently we've got uh Matthias Wiesel as our uh our techie, and yeah, we're really going for it now. 00:24:53.599 --> 00:25:03.119 And and the feedback

has been brilliant because I think you know, everyone, everyone who's ever experienced a system implementation or transformation knows just how painful it can be. 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:16.480 And everyone knows that you know the the people part of the transformation is often the the the key to success, and therefore, if we can you know address that with our product, I think it's a no-brainer and we're gonna transform the way that people do transformations. 00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:21.680 And and no, you know, if when people experience this, I don't think they'll ever go back to doing it the way they did before. 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:22.480 Excellent. 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:23.680 Why is it called Reacher? 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:24.799 Reacher. 00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:33.200 Yeah, so it's Reacher, so it's like the um prime series Reacher, but without the E on the end, so reach and then R. 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.559 And uh yeah, Reacher is it's about reaching results, reaching each individual. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:40.480 Um, and so that's where the name comes from. 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:41.200 Excellent. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:42.960 So, in a nutshell, what's it do? 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:47.519 So Reacher enables collaboration at scale. 00:25:47.920 --> 00:26:06.799 So what it does, and let's say uh our target customers are system implementers and and um transformation consultants, and it accompanies those transformations from the point at the very beginning where where companies sometimes don't even know what they need. 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:20.000 So they realize something's they need to change something in their business, whether they want to become more efficient or whether they need to move faster, and it supports the process of transformation all the way through to uh implementation. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:33.200 Um, and um it does that by helping you to reach everyone in the business and understand, first of all, how everyone works, um how work's being done, what processes and systems being used. 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:41.200 It synthesizes that information into a consumable way that highlights the key patterns that that need to be addressed and and helps to inform the solution. 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:55.200 And then it validates that with the organization to make sure that the the people that are going to be affected by the change have a seat at the transformation table and they and they get to see what's what could be a solution so that they can say, yeah, that would work, that won't work. 00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:02.559 And then it um stays with them to monitor the readiness for adoption all the way through to the point where you go live. 00:27:02.799 --> 00:27:16.960 So rather than have this uh going live and then realizing that actually the solution doesn't work for the people in the organization, you have this confidence that when you do go live, everyone understands they've actually helped build this. 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:18.079 It's the IKEA effect. 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:24.960 So they've helped build the solution and that they're ready for the adoption, and therefore you'll get the business outcomes that you intended. 00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:33.200 So it's almost like the the kind of stakeholder engagement, stakeholder management stuff in communications that we all say is important, implement implementation stuff. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:36.799 It's it's kind of that on steroids because you can now touch everybody, isn't it? 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:37.920 Absolutely, yeah. 00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:51.920 And it's not I know that things like org change management and it's paid lip service and and you know it's this it's kind of the smallest part of the budget often and it's um the first bit to be cut, but this actually makes it holistically as part of the transformation. 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:54.319 So it's you're you're looking at the human part. 00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:00.880 Like what does it take to take you know um 500 individuals through the change process? 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:11.039 You know, everyone understands things differently, and so you need to speak to people individually in their own way in their own communication style, and then you know, they each have different change journeys, so that needs to happen as well. 00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.279 But you you do it not only from the people's perspective, but also from the technical perspective. 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:21.519 So you're you're bringing these two elements to a transformation together, and I think that's what makes it really powerful. 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:29.599 So it becomes a yeah, uh a tool to like you say, it turbocharges a the capabilities of the transformation team. 00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:33.039 So it's a software product, not a consulting thing. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:37.200 What made you want to do a product business this time rather than another services one? 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:43.359 Yeah, we used to get our team together, leadership team together, and uh for these leadership uh weekends. 00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:48.240 And um, I look around the room and I saw all the brilliant people with all the brilliant ideas. 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:50.000 Um quick release. 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:51.599 I can a quick release day, yeah. 00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:05.519 So and we uh and I uh I was thinking to myself, you know, as a professional services organization, you're very much linked to you know headcam in the organization, the the what you can and and that's a little bit different these days with AI. 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:17.680 But I was um back then I was thinking, I wonder if you took this group of people and you went into you know product business, like whether you could be 10 times more successful or you know, whatever it is. 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:21.920 And we always used to talk about uh joke around the idea of like an underwear factory. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:27.519 That

was the you know, it's like if we got enough, if we bought an underwear factory, could we as a leadership team create more revenue? 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:45.279 And uh yeah, so that so and I think the the reason why the it I'm now thinking about the product business is is really because of um the AI and what that enables and is kind of unlock this new potential to reach uh more people at scale and and and so that those two things come together. 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:50.240 So this is this is really um exciting, and and but I've got um I'm learning a lot. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:59.759 So I've got uh we had an organization within Quick Release back then called Special Projects, and they were effectively a product organization and they they you know it's a DevOps team. 00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:07.759 And you know, I know over the the years that the this idea of kind of product ownership, etc., is is um emerged. 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.759 And yeah, that's been really interesting. 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:19.519 And so I've got a newfound respect for product owners and what that actually means and what it means to have a you know uh software product because it's it's not it's not so straightforward. 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:31.759 You know, there's a lot of complexities associated with it and decisions and challenges, and um, so it's not it's not that the the world is better on the product side, um, it's it's different, but there's there's huge potential. 00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:39.039 It's interesting because I I look recently looked up the the difference between what a startup is versus um a a new business. 00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:45.759 And uh you know, with the startup, it's all about the potential to scale, you're creating something new that has this um scale potential. 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:56.640 So that I think that's the exciting part, the idea that you know we can have a one-to-many impact that that was uh harder to do with the um the old style of company. 00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:02.400 Quite a different economic model in a product business versus consulting business. 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:02.880 Yeah. 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:05.519 How have you thought about that? 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:07.039 Yeah. 00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:10.079 The it's it's um it's emerging. 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:17.839 I mean, the the thing that's exciting is that if we can create the right platform, we see so many potential applications. 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:37.200 That that that's the exciting part is that the scale almost feels unlimited because let's say we launch in in PLM because that's the the the space I know, uh that's the network, but ultimately this there's no reason why it can't apply to professional services, software, ERP, CRM, you know, all these things. 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:44.160 And then um, you know, why why can't it be used for you know the um deployment of AI, for example? 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:48.240 So there's this this just huge you know potential for scaling. 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:57.440 The other part of this is the let's say the there's there's costs associated with computing power and then tokens, etc. 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:05.680 And I I think we have we found a hybrid because the our target market is system implementers and consultants. 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:20.240 And so the the model that we're looking at is the idea of a let's say digital consultant, because many companies these days are thinking before I employ someone, can I execute this work with AI? 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:33.119 And so we're trying to make this easier for them by actually creating the idea of a digital employee where they have a um highly paid consultant that is 10 times more productive than a you know human consultant. 00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:40.160 Um, it comes with you know almost unlimited knowledge about the field, you know, whether it's PLM, ERP, et cetera. 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:47.279 And they can plug into their organization because they've got an email account, they can you know chat and they can be invited to meetings, et cetera. 00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.960 And therefore, the the commercial model is is a hybrid. 00:32:51.119 --> 00:33:04.799 So you could have a digital employee, so you could pay them a salary, for example, and then at the same time, you you might have to then limit um how many projects they can work on, you know, um, but it would still be way more than you than the human could do. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.359 In the past, my I've described myself as a product data plumber, and people got that. 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:10.880 And that that was an easy one. 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:21.519 So if we now describe what what our product is as almost as a as a digital employee, a digital consultant, I think that helps them understand it and they start to think about okay, yeah, so we get continuity. 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:34.480 So the the quality level of this consultant is is going to be the same across all engagements, and you know, it just helps them think about how they would work with this product within their organization and how they how it would become part of the team. 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.440 But that's quite different from thinking about a license fee. 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:38.079 Correct. 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:43.039 Do you think that that will what's what's the reaction to people when you've talked about that? 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:44.799 I know people have been really receptive. 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.920 I think people like the idea. 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:52.240 I think first of all, people are excited about working with AI and having an AI product, and and I think that it is the natural evolution. 00:33:52.319 --> 00:34:03.680 I know some companies have um uh a hiring freeze, and they say that you can only hire if you can prove to us that this work cannot be done by AI. 00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:11.920 And so that that's that's you know, with the the the

pioneers, but uh, but ultimately I think many companies in the future will start to have that challenge as well. 00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:32.480 So, therefore, if we can offer them this solution that kind of fits with their mental model of uh work and how work is is is executed and and kind of people and and you know, to the extent that we're even thinking about giving each instance a name, you know, beginning with R, like so Richard would be like Richard, Rachel, Ruth, uh etc. 00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:36.880 But um, yeah, no, so I the so the resonance has been is been good. 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:52.960 And I I think the license model is is is quite abstract, especially when AI is um, you know, it's it's it's um less about seats, especially, you know, where where you might even have AI agents interacting as well. 00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:07.199 So it's I know that in in the in the space of um PLM and other softwares, for example, some people are moving away from licenses and it's it's um they're going towards more enterprise licenses or rather than kind of seats. 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:17.519 So if you're back running a services business with what AI can do and thinking about your kind of your underwear question, if you will, that's an interesting one, but um for a different conversation. 00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:30.079 What how would you think about a 50-person consultancy today in terms of the value you can get from that, if that was your the essence of the question a few years ago? 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:39.519 So I think the future of consultancies today is is definitely this this hybrid model between services and products and especially with um what AI can do. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:51.440 So I think had we had AI back then when I sat in the room and looked around the room and said to people, um, you know, could we be doing more with this group of talented group of people? 00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:59.199 I think we probably would have at that stage, we we started to do it actually with this special project organization that I spoke about. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:05.760 You know, we had we had we could we were creating digital products and toolkits um for ourselves, but also the customer. 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:07.519 And so that we were starting to do that. 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:16.159 But what you can achieve with AI is just so huge that it would have been nice if we could have had that back then, if we had a time machine to go back and kind of had the access to AI. 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:31.840 But anyway, this this is this has to be the de facto way of thinking for consultancies right now, you know, but uh all the way, like every part of the organization, like from employment of of new people all the way through to the services that they're offering their customers. 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:43.199 If consultancies are gonna be able to use our AI, yeah, our point of view is they're gonna have to be better at, you know, what's the IP sitting sitting on top of it? 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:44.480 How do they structure the process? 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:51.679 Like the the kind of things that you know somebody making a car has to worry about in terms of all how all the pieces fit together and what it what what it does. 00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:02.400 Like I just think that don't see how a professional services firm does similar kind of build activity without getting much more kind of product life cycle about how it goes about it. 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:02.960 Okay. 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:09.119 Yeah, I I think what you're describing is um the kind of product thinking, productized approach. 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:14.880 And um, in the case of a professional services company, for example, you know, what first question is what is their product? 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:16.159 What is it that they do? 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:17.760 Are they a generalist? 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.840 Are they do they have a you know a product that is repeatable? 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:23.519 Is it configurable? 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:28.400 Um and so having that that product definition to start with is quite important. 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.480 And then it's saying, well, how do you realize it? 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:32.559 Is it is it realized just through people? 00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:35.760 Is it realized because you have a um a methodology? 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.119 Do you have tools? 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:53.920 And then in the same way that, for example, an automotive company will have engineering standards um and and have references for how they did things, and they'd be working with suppliers to say, okay, if we want to develop a new type of seat, you know, what what it what is the industry doing? 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:54.880 How are they doing this? 00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:58.880 What products could we kind of pull into our uh assemble product? 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:02.000 The same way consultancies uh need to be doing that. 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:08.800 And and one thing that consultancies haven't been great at is that that capture of uh learned experience. 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:18.800 I talked about lessons learned, they sit somewhere in the business and people do try to look at them before they do a project, but it's very uh it's not done very well. 00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:27.840 You have all of this knowledge in people's heads, but you end up being reliant on those people then having to come into the project in order to actually benefit from it. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:33.199 And you it's very, very hard to extract, or it has been very hard to extract that knowledge from people's heads. 00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:38.639 So you go for this this idea of what is your product, and then how do you execute, how do you build that product? 00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.880 And that has to be more than the people who've been executing it. 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:48.880 So you need to then have this kind of level of

corporate intelligence uh around what you do and how you do it. 00:38:49.039 --> 00:39:04.639 And then you need to put that capability in the hands of everyone so that it's um, you know, regardless of who's on the project, they're capable of delivering the product, the service consistently at the at the highest level of quality and and repeatedly. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:11.679 And I mean, is that something that I don't know, car manufacturers, aerospace people have got ahead? 00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.679 Like, uh do they do that better? 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:22.000 Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's difficult because you're you're comparing apples to oranges, but ultimately the they have to be really good at this car companies, aerospace companies. 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.119 You know, there's so many standards around what these products need to be doing. 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:31.920 They've been doing it for a long time, so they they know how to press steel or to you know develop switches, etc. 00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:41.599 And um, and you have people that are dedicated to to parts of the product um that know these areas inside out, and and also the the process of how they come together. 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:54.000 And I guess the difference is the scale in the sense you have a small team of people developing um a product that then goes into a factory that then can scale the production of this product that is kind of repeatable. 00:39:54.159 --> 00:40:07.519 And so that's a bit different to consulting services, but but I think there's especially if company if can uh professional services and and consulting firms want to start to leverage you know AI, and it's not that they have to. 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:09.679 That's the that's the that's the honest truth. 00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:14.719 Then they have to start thinking more along the lines of being a a product company. 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:21.599 So kind of lots of what you're doing now is very different from a services business. 00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:31.679 I guess what practically speaking, because you've started both of these things from scratch, what's been the biggest practical difference between starting RETRA and starting quick release? 00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.039 Uh so the there's there's a few differences. 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:39.679 One one is um quick release, we had money coming in from day one. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.000 So that was never even a uh a theme. 00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:44.960 And this time around, we're starting from scratch. 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:57.119 Uh, we don't have any money coming in at the moment, and so because you're building something new and you have to get customers, and um, and so you've got this whole topic around investment, and that's quite new to me. 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:18.800 And then in addition, the the whole thinking around the you know, the product thinking and and the the idea of product features and product roadmap, and um, even though I we know the the need and we know we've got a hypothesis around uh how to address that need, you have to then show that the product can actually you know do that. 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:26.880 So then then you've got in the past with quick release, we had proof from day one that we were solving the problem and and we could show it because we were doing it. 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:34.719 This time around we have to build it and then it you know pilot it and then show that it it does what we um uh say it can do. 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:41.440 And so that's yeah, so there's there's a little bit more uncertainty around there, and there'll be a journey of discovery to fine-tune it, etc. 00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:49.519 So, and I think the other major differences is that uh back in the quick at the beginning, the origins of quick release, we never really thought about it as a business. 00:41:49.679 --> 00:42:01.519 Whereas going into this right now, I can't help but think of this as a business and and and something that I know will grow and one day be sold, and therefore you kind of have all of that in your mind when you're building this. 00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:09.519 And and I think the you you can't help but have more of a laser focus on the on the commercial side of um the enterprise. 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.519 So if you're building a product, doesn't exist, it's an idea. 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:17.599 And how have you gone about testing whether like if you build it they will come? 00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.760 Because I can imagine you could spend a lot of time and a lot of money creating something. 00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:26.239 Like, how are you balancing the build versus the does anybody want this? 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:46.960 Yeah, there's a lot of um guidance these days for startups about best, you know, but how to how to go about this, but ultimately it's um you know, talking to the market, so talking to people that are living this uh pain, experiencing it, and and first of all, validating the need and then validating the root causes and and also then what what could it improve that? 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:55.519 So you're you're you're doing a lot of work to make sure that you're not just coming up with an idea that you think would be great and then you try and push it on people. 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:04.639 First of all, you you um you check that people uh would value this and that and that ultimately, the ultimate test is would you pay money for this? 00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:12.320 And one thing I've learned from the past as well is that there needs to be a solid uh value case for buying something. 00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:21.039 You know, people don't just give money out because something's nice, it has to add value, it has to save them money, it has to give them more money. 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:26.480 So it's really checking that people are interested in paying money for something. 00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:44.400 And then as quickly

as possible, and without investing lots of time and money, you need to build this prototype to to get it in the hands of people, to check that it actually, you know, is as good as the vision that you have in your in your mind, because the reality could be quite different. 00:43:44.559 --> 00:43:50.719 And I think that's the you know, the set the ideal sentiment behind this is go fast, go light. 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:59.760 And then if you then find out it's it's it's wanted and there's and the and the customers fight you know get value, then you double down on it and try. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.880 Cripple down on it and that's when you really then go big. 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:20.559 And the the other interesting thing is the um the the ICP, the ideal customer profile, the idea that you really focus on what what market is this addressing, which people in those in that market is it addressing, because you have to design it around them and you almost have to exclude other potential customers. 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:28.639 And that's quite tricky because in the past, especially when you're starting a company, you know, we said yes to a lot of companies and that helped us grow. 00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:37.599 But when you're, you know, you almost have to be quite picky around which customers you accept in the early days because all of those experiences inform the product. 00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:44.559 And if you if you diversify too much, then it can water the product down and it bec it then you don't get the same uh value. 00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:53.519 And there's lots of lessons that learn and experience from other startups which are showing this, where you know, this laser focus actually makes you a better product down the road. 00:44:53.920 --> 00:45:00.480 So you talked about kind of having customers, like having interaction with potential customers, what would they want, doubling down on those things? 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:08.000 How receptive you have you found people to actually be willing just to engage in what probably feels a bit like a asking a favor. 00:45:08.159 --> 00:45:09.119 Like, how are how are you? 00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:12.480 Because I can imagine there's a parallel with people who are thinking about their services business, right? 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.480 Like you want to get, you can do lots of beavering whale method, and somebody might might not want it. 00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:18.800 Like so that kind of engagement. 00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:20.480 How have you how have you gone about that? 00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:21.360 It surprised me. 00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:37.360 It's almost one for one at the moment where everyone we speak to wants to try it and wants to do it and and wants to partner on the on the um you know the the piloting, which is good because it means that we we've we've found something that's that's you know valuable. 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:52.000 Um and I part of that is having the warm network, I think,

you know, starting in my network where I've got the relationships and and uh you know you you you meet people face to face and then that there's a certain um amount of trust that um develops. 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:55.760 But um, yeah, so that's so trust is part of it and and the relationship is part of it. 00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:59.360 And then I think the credibility about, you know, we we've lived it, we've experienced it. 00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:03.280 And so we're not a group of students who's come up with an idea and we just want to try it. 00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:09.119 You know, we've actually we've got the battle scars from doing it, and so we really know the topic deeply. 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.519 And I think there is also I think companies are are interested in AI applications these days. 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:34.320 I think people want to use AI to do things smarter and more efficiently, and especially because people are also thinking themselves, you know, like let's say a small small consultancy of 10 people, they're saying, how can we grow, but without necessarily growing through people, and this will enable them to grow and and service more customers. 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:36.000 And so that's attractive for them. 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:41.039 And so um I mean yeah, so I've I've been surprised how open people are for it. 00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:43.360 And so it's been that's really nice. 00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:46.320 That's really uh uh kind of pleasant and exciting. 00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:47.199 No, good. 00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:51.360 You said we all know that you uh you and your co-founders come from slightly different worlds. 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:56.639 You said one have been in AI for a long time, you might be have come from a slightly more analog world, if you will. 00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:02.559 Kind of how's that played out for you guys as different views and experiences on technology? 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:18.480 I mean, I uh when when I talk about the story of Quick Release, we talked about this holy trinity of of the three of us, where one was um very business savvy, that was Adam Blomily, and and I was quite customer focused, and and then Adam Grant was the details guy. 00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:31.199 And we've all I think we've um we've formed this kind of you know uh holy trinity again where we all come at things with slightly different perspectives, and I I so it just reinforces my belief that this is the way to go. 00:47:31.360 --> 00:48:13.440 But um, yeah, I mean it's a culture shock for me, huge culture shock, because first of all, there's this you know product like services to product is one one thing, and and having to learn about the product world, but also the um you know uh Robert and Matthias, they're so AI native, and the pace at which they move and and what they know and what they can do, and that you know how they can the level of productivity is just insane, and you know, that is a big shock for me, and uh, and I feel like a dinosaur, even though you know I've I've I've been in this you know PLN technology world working with you know very detailed, complex, engineered products, but this is it is completely next level for me, and and um so that's been interesting. 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:19.679 But from their side, you know, uh for example, Mathias has not done um something like this entrepreneurial before. 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:35.440 And um, so they're they're also quite glad to be working with me with and and me having had this experience of uh you know running a professional services company, and um, and so that therefore I think it's kind of mutually beneficial and we're learning from each other, and but it's uh it's the magic formula. 00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:43.760 And I think that investors as well, the conversations I've had with investors so far, they they also like that that mix and they see that it's a safe bet. 00:48:43.840 --> 00:49:01.039 There's there's a bit of tension between, you know, there's this um some trains of thought which say, or let's say startups that are done with young young people with you know fresh and lots of energy, et cetera, could be more successful than the ones that are founded by you know older people with like maybe more bias or et cetera. 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:06.239 But I think we've got this really great hybrid mix of of kind of experience, but then new thinking. 00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:09.039 And and I've I think I've always been quite innovative in my thinking. 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:23.280 You know, for example, even 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I was saying the work we were doing then will undoubtedly you know be uh taken over by AI at some point because we we're just a lot of the time we were just getting people in the room together. 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:24.320 You know, it's not difficult. 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:27.840 You can't get this person to sort this person, and they say, I need this, I need this. 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.320 Okay, well, you know, good, aligned, great. 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:35.760 You know, and then you know, sometimes it's like collecting this one system to this one system. 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:47.920 So, you know, it's we we were there doing it because AI at that point couldn't, but at some point you're gonna have these autonomous agents that will that will then make this happen um and and get people to talk together. 00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:55.440 And I think that's a little bit what you know what Reach is gonna be doing is getting the organization to talk to each other and have this create the shared understanding. 00:49:55.599 --> 00:50:19.840 And the the cool thing about that is you have this almost digital twin of the organization that is not just there for the the transformation part, but it you then you know create this picture of how the organization runs, things, works, and the dynamic, and and uh then you can use that going forward to um you know actually

uh almost like to to inform the artificial intelligence of the organization. 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:29.280 And and if you know, if you have business imperatives, how can you you know use that that digital twin of the organization in order to make decisions about how you transform? 00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:30.239 No, that's great. 00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:36.159 Last thing before we close, I guess there's lots of stuff it's that's different about this from your first business. 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:44.400 Are there any things from quick release that you're kind of bringing into this that are like you just wouldn't change because you got that absolutely right? 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:51.039 Yeah, so I I think fundamentally this idea around people, you know, I've always been very people focused. 00:50:51.119 --> 00:51:02.000 And I and I think this, you know, let's say the um that's been the consistent part of this evolution, even though it's just going from a services to a product business, the focus is still people and humans. 00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:09.920 And you know, I think we're only ever going to have success if if humans are not just considered, but actually, you know, we build things around humans. 00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:13.440 So that's let's say the thing that I'm consistently taking across. 00:51:13.519 --> 00:51:17.119 And but I think there's a lot of things, a lot of learnings. 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:27.519 That's the exciting part, is there'll be bits that I've learned where I am actually lucky enough to get the chance to do it again, but from the day one. 00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:33.920 Plus, there's this whole new world of you know productization and AI, which is which uh is a learning journey. 00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.000 So it's it's a really I'm really enjoying it. 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:42.079 It's a rich mix of doing it again but better, but also then going on this learning journey. 00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:43.119 That's great. 00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.360 All right. 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:46.800 Well, Rob, I really appreciate kind of your time and kind of all the insight. 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:52.880 Uh as I said at the outset, you know, you don't talk to lots of people who've kind of been through it and come out the other side and are now thinking about network. 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:54.880 So it's been a really kind of different conversation. 00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:55.679 I really appreciate that. 00:51:56.000 --> 00:51:57.440 Well, I likewise, John. 00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:00.480 I really appreciate the uh the different flavor and different perspective. 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:02.239 It's been interesting for me too. 00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.000 I guess just a couple of questions to close, which I which I do with everybody. 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:10.559 And the first one kind of looks back a bit, and the the second one looks looks a bit more forward. 00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:15.440 So the first one is if you go back and do one thing differently in business career, what might that be? 00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:17.519 I've been asking myself this question. 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:20.480 And um I don't know if I would change anything. 00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:26.000 I'm I think it's one of these things where if I if I would change anything, it would unravel everything that we achieved. 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:35.119 And it was somehow like a very delicate, but also at the same time, powerful and wonderfully constructed house of cards where I wouldn't adjust anything. 00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:41.519 I think it was quite unique, and and that's the feedback we've had from the team as well in the in the way that the you know the company is run. 00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:44.719 And um, so yeah, I I would I would keep it as it is. 00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:46.480 I'm I'm kind of happy with it and proud of it. 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:49.280 And I think it's it was it was a beautiful experience. 00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:56.800 And yeah, I think there's things we could have done more efficient, and but but ultimately all the all the big stuff we got right. 00:52:57.119 --> 00:52:57.920 No, good, good. 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.480 And you're not, you know, you're not the first to wouldn't change anything. 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:03.760 I think kind of there's lots of people who kind of look back and think, no regrets. 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:06.159 You change one thing and it might have gone completely differently. 00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:16.800 So and I guess if you were if you're talking to somebody who's this question number two, kind of in a professional service business, trying to build long-term value and that what one bit of advice would you give that? 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:18.159 I think there's two pieces of advice. 00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:25.920 One of them, one of those is general, and I think that's you know, laser focused on on the customer and what's important to the customer, and what does the customer need? 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:27.840 How can you help your customers be more successful? 00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:30.880 Because if you can do that, then you'd always be successful. 00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:42.159 And the second one is you you have to be looking at AI now, not just in in context of what you can do in your business, but again, thinking about the customer. 00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.400 How is your customer being changed by AI? 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:47.280 And and the obviously there's lots of things that affect that. 00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:49.840 So the the environment, you know, their customers. 00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:53.440 And and so the whole business model has to change, it has to evolve. 00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:59.119 But think about that in context of the broader system, not don't just try and do some stuff in isolation on yourselves. 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:03.760 You have to understand your position in the ecosystem going forward. 00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:05.440 No, great

advice, great advice. 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:07.199 Um, but look, we'll we'll close there. 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:14.800 If somebody wants to find out more about kind of reaching what you guys are doing or pick your brain about the past, what's what's the best way to get in touch? 00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:19.280 Yeah, best thing to do is just kind of reach out to me on LinkedIn and um I'd be happy to hear from you. 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:19.920 Excellent. 00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:21.519 All right, well, thank you again for your time. 00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:23.920 Good to see you, and we'll look forward to speaking to you soon. 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:24.800 Yeah, likewise, John. 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:25.679 Thank you very much. 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:26.639 Great. 00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:35.039 One thing I kept coming back to from that conversation is how much Rob and his co-founders had thought about the deal before they did it. 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:46.719 They'd asked themselves what conditions it would take for them to sell, agree what really mattered to them, and even blown out to France to spend time with people at Alton and work out whether they were people they'd really want to go into business with. 00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:49.199 In my experience, that's pretty unusual. 00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:55.440 At Garwood, we probably worked with six or seven founder teams in the past year who were thinking about selling or taking investment. 00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:04.960 Now, almost all of them had thought about different parts of what they wanted, but very few had sat down together and really worked out what we'd call their landing zone. 00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:11.679 And by that we mean what a good outcome would look like for each of them individually, for them as a team, and for the whole business. 00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:19.679 Now, the landing zone is obviously partly financial, but it's also about the type of deal, how long they want to stay involved in the business and what they want to do afterwards. 00:55:19.840 --> 00:55:25.760 And if you don't have those conversations beforehand, there's a pretty decent chance you end up having them halfway through a transaction. 00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:31.920 And that's really not when you want to discover that you've all been making different assumptions about each other's expectations. 00:55:32.079 --> 00:55:41.760 What I found really interesting about Rob is that although he and the team had thought really carefully about the deal itself, he still found the period afterwards much harder than he expected. 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:48.880 And to be honest, I recognize some of that from when I stepped back as CEO of Channel 3 Consulting and having to work out where I wanted to focus next. 00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:54.719 And that's why when we're doing landing zone work with the team, we put a lot of focus on the personal side of things. 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:59.599 Sometimes people know exactly what they want next, but I'd say most people probably don't. 00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:04.400 I'd be really interested to hear from other founder teams who are thinking about selling or taking investment. 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:10.400 Have you sat down as a group and talked through what each of you wants from it, including what you want life to look like afterwards? 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:13.679 If not, is there something getting in the way of those conversations? 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:17.360 I'd love to hear how you're thinking about it, so send me a message on LinkedIn. 00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:20.719 If you found this episode useful, please do follow the show. 00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:21.920 That's it for this one. 00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:23.360 Thanks for listening.