TRANSKRIPTIO 🔗
Pat Murphy:
Hi and welcome to the MCA Prodcast, your fix for everything innovative in advertising and production. I'm Pat Murphy and I've been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I've seen a lot of changes, but know there's plenty more around the corner. Each week on the podcast you'll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising production for the future and we'll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we're best placed to overcome them Today. We're best placed to overcome them.
Today we're talking to Mark Benson, President of the Mill. With over 25 years of experience and formerly CEO of MPC, the Moving Picture Company. Mark's visionary leadership transformed the brand into a multi-award-winning global creative studio. Under Mark's leadership, MPC expanded from London globally, establishing studios in Bangalore, New York, Los Angeles, Paris and Shanghai. Creative and production excellence are always at the heart of Mark's ethos, and he’s dedicated to nurturing talent across all The Mill activities, evident in the portfolio of award-winning work the Mill has undertaken.
Mark, thanks so much for being here on the MCA Prodcast.
Mark Benson:
Pleasure, Pat, very good to see you.
Pat Murphy:
So you and I go back a very long way. Both as runners. I seem to remember you were at Carlton and I at the Post House Molineux, pretty much at the same time. Did you ever think you'd be in this role as President of one of the most prestigious group of creative companies in the world, or did you have a different ambition then?
Mark Benson:
No, I didn't see this particularly. I didn't see how the business was going to change and evolve. But I started in music, promo, pop videos, working with Godley and Cream at the time they were my biggest client. When I say client, I was responsible for their tea, coffee, lunches, dinners and snacks at 2 o'clock in the morning, as necessary. And no, I didn't see where the journey would end or get to.
But I saw an extraordinary thing happen in St John's Wood when Max Hedren was born, when Godly and Cream built Cry and, as we did in those days, as runners - you were aware you could see, you could be a part of the experience from a sort of an awareness point of view. And it was I'd never seen anything like it and Peter Wagg and Max Hedrum and Channel 4. And it was an eye-opener! And I suppose what I didn't realise, but what soon became very clear is that these were people pushing the boundaries of what was achievable, what was possible, and being really creative and dynamic in what was being produced and watching that was an absolute privilege and it was enormously exciting.
Pat Murphy:
So you were working on pop promos at Carlton and I was working on pop promos at Molineux. I was working on things like Club Tropicana for Wham or Gary Newman, Blondie's Parallel Lines, those kinds of things. So we had this sort of very similar background… were you a good runner?
Mark Benson:
I thought so. I thought I was all right. I learned a lot from a guy called Mark Papp and I hope Mark Papp might hear this and I want to thank him for all his guidance at the time, because he told me how to make good salad dressing and I still make the same salad dressing that he shared the recipe with me back in the day and I think it's pretty good
And actually in all seriousness, looking after clients was what you learnt from the outset and that engagement and understanding of what client meant was something I was really interested in and I enjoyed the relationship. It was perhaps more revealing than I might have imagined, but that sort of importance of how a client felt and how people at work could felt, the way in which the editor and the artist and the DP and so on worked together. I could sense that collaboration early and I think that was very impactful on me.
Pat Murphy:
So I went to film school and spent three years studying and getting my degree and then I came into being a runner. I think I learned more in my first week of being a runner than I ever did in university or at college, learning about film and my first Managing Director at Molinaux... I still work with him. He's my chairman of MCA, so I've been collecting bosses over the years.
Do you keep in touch with all of your old bosses?
Mark Benson:
Yes, very, very sadly, Barry Johnston passed away a year or so ago. That was a very sad, sad moment obviously for all who loved Barry, and Barry was a massively impactful, for me, and I was very, very fond of him and, yes, we did stay in touch and went and watched cricket together after I left Carlton. I was always very close to David as well and and and um still see see David um occasionally and I cherish that relationship as well very dearly, with others, of course, along the way.
I mean so many people that have been massively important in my life as partners in in business, but also friends and are still friends, and a lot of the friends that I worked with in those early days are now very close friends. That's the business at work in as much as spending that time together, working through the good, the bad and the difficult and the challenge, and all those things brought people together and you did develop very strong relationships as a result and I cherish a lot of those now, whether they'd be with friendships or with clients or not their friendships, and then lifelong.
Pat Murphy:
Please send my regards to David. Great character, of course, in the industry.
You spent most of your whole career really in that one place. What kept you there at MPC?
Mark Benson:
I loved the company and I still do, and I loved it because it continued to evolve. And at the heart of what we did was it was, I think, a very competitive edge to pushing boundaries and being creatively ambitious and be production ambitious in terms of what we could produce, what
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we could deliver, what we could make and the heart of that was a client-centric approach to everything that we did. You know, we were. It mattered massively what our clients experienced with us throughout the process, throughout the engagement. It mattered massively that that engagement was positive and this notion that you're as good as the work you did five minutes ago, I think, pervades today. You can't take anything for granted, but you can develop really good relationships and those relationships will give you opportunities and they're very important to developing a business. And, to answer your question, I think, as the business evolves and we moved into new areas back in the day, into film, back into other areas and in and, as we now know, the multi-platform world and the way in which content is consumed and delivered in so many different ways that that evolution is exciting.
For me personally, when the business moved into other parts of the world and we could engage with other cultures and other people with a different aesthetic, with a different way to engage, a way to perform and share and so on, fascinating and massively stimulating as well.
Pat Murphy:
MPC was one of my favourite places to work. You, of course, that little rabbit warren in Noel Street that you used to have, and the team were always so polite and accommodating. I think you mentioned relationships. I think that was the secret sauce. What were some of the favourite memories you had at that time, in the early days?
Mark Benson:
I think working on projects and working on pieces of work that people talked about and that people were excited about, and to me there are many, I think for me I have a love of sport, a love of stew for me, I have a love of sport and and working with David Garth Vath on the Ryan Geeks Reebok film was a massive a highlight to me, and it was a highlight for a number of reasons. One, I thought it was a genius idea, but the belief David had and the creative team had to make something that had not been done before but had a conviction around what this film would look like, and to be able to be the post-producer on that project was fantastic. There was the bravery right there. That was the film that was going to go out all the half-time break during the cup final which United were in, by the way and it finished at 11 o'clock the night before and played out at the last minute.
That was a fantastic experience and I thought brilliant idea. And I don't know I'd love to ask David if he'd love to do it again with the tech where it is today. But at the time there was nothing like it, I don't think, that had been conceived as an idea and then delivered, I thought, brilliantly and that was very MPC, I think, as it was with a number of our competitors right? We all wanted to push each other to make great stuff that was awarded and talked about all over the world. I think the industry was all the better for that aspiration that we all had to do the best work.
Pat Murphy:
So MPC over the years was responsible for some of the most iconic ads and post-production of those. You moved into film productions as well. How did MPC move from ads also into post-pro on film?
Mark Benson:
I think as the tech became the enabler and what we were able to do on the small screen graduated onto the big screen the moment was there, the opportunity was there and it was seized. The opportunities for talent to move into new areas and to engage in this new format. And, of course, for a lot of the advertising teams , the relationships had been established in TV and then they moved into film at the same time. So there's a sort of a natural progression into these new areas, with relationships that had already been established in in the world of tv and moved into film rapidly, as MPC did back in the day with English Patient, and then we were the only company that worked on every single Harry Potter film throughout the, the series of the franchise and the rest is as they say, in terms of how film grew for so many companies that had started out life in the world of TV.
Pat Murphy:
And I also remember your production team, your production department that you used to have. You used to have a great stable of directors, one of whom was Gerry Anderson at one point in time and of course I'm a massive lover of everything, Gerry Anderson, but you had an incredible team there. Do you still have a kind of a production team like that and a stable of directors, or has that all changed now?
Mark Benson:
We certainly do. We have directors working within the business who are very focused on the world of special effects and visual effects and animation, and we also work with directors who work in other fields. So very open engagement with directors that are part of our business today, but also directors who we work with because they're the right partner for a piece of work that we're undertaking at the time.
The worlds with Jerry - was that the beautiful butterflies work. I remember the origami birds that Jerry created.
Pat Murphy:
He did a number of things with you guys, that I thought was brilliant actually, and there was an insurance ad that I think he did as well, and he used to have Parker sitting on his desk, do you remember?
Mark Benson:
Yes, absolutely, he was a very, very wonderful man, absolutely! And an absolute pleasure to work with for sure,
Pat Murphy:
Now you moved from Knoll Street to Wardour Street and obviously you've scaled up.
You've grown the business dramatically into lots of different places around the world. How many people now work for the organisation, Mark?
Mark Benson:
Just about 800 now across The Mill as we are now in different parts of the world, and it's a big company. I mean, the fundamentals haven't changed. We are consumed in our craft in our tech and again pushing the boundaries of what is achievable alongside our clients and our clients, as your
podcast have shared over the recent weeks - The evolution of engagement is changing all the time, and partnering with agencies, partnering with brands, is very much front and center of where The Mill is now as we are, and it's a very exciting space, and that evolution is creating so many different opportunities, and they are increasingly opportunities that that harness expertise and talent from different parts of the world, and I think that's where you know we are all excited about how we go forwards into new markets and new areas of opportunity, but predicated on talent, a real understanding of what a narrative, what a story can be and how it's told, and that I don't think will ever change - that priority, that critical importance that we understand and we share with the partners and clients that we work with.
Pat Murphy:
I was also a frequent visitor of The Mill - sorry about that, Mark, I was playing you both off at the time - but they were the upstarts, I guess, the MPC challengers at the time when they started. Apart from having Ridley Scott's Oscar in their reception for Gladiator, they also had some exceptional talent in the building. Was it easy to bring the two companies together under one umbrella? Was there much fallout at the time?
Mark Benson:
Both companies had, as you say, phenomenal talent and had built, I think, phenomenal businesses that thrived off their competitive nature, which was, I think again, the best interests of the business and, look, for some people it wasn't what they wanted or saw as right for their future, but that's a while ago. That’s a merger that is now firmly in the past and we go forwards as the mill in the future.
Pat Murphy:
The quoted ambition for Technicolor was to become the ‘world's largest creative visual arts company’. Has that actually been achieved?
Mark Benson:
I think we continue to be aspirational in that regard. I think we hit a number of the notes and we continue to do so, moving forwards. I think the definition of that creative arts company is evolving and that's what's so exciting about where The Mill is right now in terms of how it's transforming and how it's moving into new areas of engagement and opportunity, not at the expense of the work we continue to do around the world, whether that's making TV ads in London or for the Super Bowl or whatever it might be. We have no desire or intention to lose touch with that core. But what's so interesting is that the creative and the tech that is opening up opportunities, whether that be in The Sphere where we just produced, I think in the last 12 months, 20 projects or 3D billboards, or working with a theatre company, or working with a construction or property company to develop and show how property or a city is going to be experienced in the future - that's opening up opportunities that I think are enormous to The Mill. I think that's where art and tech and creative continue to come together. I think where The Mill will continue to drive forwards.
I think that's enormous exciting for the businesses. It's enormous exciting for our creative and our talent at the same time, to be able to be impactful in storytelling, in creative vision, in these new areas. It's not a new lease of life, but it's an evolution of the work that we do, whether that's creating content - Yesterday we launched the Outernet for Malaria No More using the five screens of The Outernet or working in partnership with Layered Reality, a theatre company, to deliver Elvis Evolution in May next year. So, working in partnership with a theatre company that I'm not sure we would have seen a few years back, but harnessing creative, real-time AI automation to deliver a truly remarkable theatrical experience will be another milestone, I think, in our evolution as a business, but not at the expense of what we do today, working with agencies and brands, but actually companies, because content is consumed in so many different and varied ways, as we all know.
Pat Murphy:
Completely agree with you. Most of the brands that we work with are not just making TV ads anymore. They're creating experiences just as much as they are making video content. So I think you're hitting the right note there.
I read also the article recently about you bringing Elvis back to life and it sounds like a fascinating project. Is it something a bit like the ABBA Voyage thing that's out in East London? Tell us more about that.
Mark Benson:
I understand how it fits meet with the genre of Abba Voyage, which I certainly love. This is a different experience, so this is, I think, much more immersive experience in the context of it being 180 people moving through different rooms and the experiences within a new space in London and the engagement with actors and Elvis as we will see him, I think will be very well… It will be differentand we've loved working with Layered Reality and developing this partnership that is so interesting in so many ways.
One, it's obviously opening up this opportunity to flex our creative and tech muscle in this particular way and in this context, but we're also learning. I think this is really interesting for us - learning working with a different type of production, what theatre production is about and how theatre produces content versus a production company or an advertising agency.
It's a lot of learnings and it's really interesting and I think it will help inform how we develop in this space in the future, because we we're used to a way of working which is great. We understand how we work today, but when we work with a property company or a construction company or a theatre company, how do we ensure we're calibrated in line with how the these businesses work? And getting that right think will be very interesting for us.
Pat Murphy:
Let's talk a bit about innovation. When I was at Molineux, I remember well when the very first Quantel paintbox arrived and everyone was very excited about
that. Obviously, technology has moved a very long way since then, and even the pandemic shifted plenty of our behaviours toward a more hybrid work solution. Do you still have floors and floors of operators, and and have you adopted a more flexible approach for your teams to kind of work in different places as well as in your main building?
Mark Benson:
Yes, we have, and I think that that's getting the balance right. We don't. I don't, it's not set forever in, as much as we look at it all the time. And I think getting the flex and the balance right between having the studio spaces which we do in all the areas, or rather in all the cities in which we operate - but having that flex between having the artists of talent, the creative tech in studio, production in studio and working in a hybrid model, that is very advantageous, as we all know, when it's deployed correctly and in the right way, is great.
But we also want to make sure we continue to have the reason to be together and that people are and certainly do encourage people to come to the studio because it's a fun place to be, and it's also where we certainly know where our engagement with ourselves and our engagement with our clients still thrives and it's still so necessary and so getting that balance right is something we we look at the time, but we certainly prioritise physical space and having the studios in our portfolio so we can use them for the right reasons at the right times.
I think we're in sync with the evolution with our clients and we're certainly seeing more clients work in studio with us, more so now than perhaps a year or so ago, and I think that will, I think, continue. And I think that there's a recognition that certainly when we're pushing and we're driving each other to create experiences and content, that is pushing a boundary, there's almost a need to be together for certain amounts of time to make that really work to best effect and to be in the same space.
Pat Murphy:
Yeah, I agree with that. And also with people coming up through the junior ranks. They need other people around them as mentors, I suppose, as they come up through the business.
Now, equipment and software is now at a price point that so many more people can have access to this stuff. Do you worry about competition from people sitting in their bedrooms at home?
Mark Benson:
No. I think for all of us that is a a reality, but it's also making, I think, us focus on a number of things - on our creative, the quality of our creative, our content, our narrative, our storytelling, our experience or the experience that our clients have working with us, and I think it's keeping us focused on what's important in terms of driving The Mill forwards and what the market is looking for from the mill in the future, and that's harnessing AI.
It's harnessing real-time. We talk, of course, about automation. Yes, a lot of functions continue to be automated and will do, but we're also seeing the value that AI is representing to what we can do versus what we weren't able to do in the past, and I think that's where we need to continue to focus our attention looking at the opportunities that AI is affording us. And certainly its played a massive part in the work we're doing with Layered Reality, on Elvis Evolution. That is, I think, indicative of how AI is an enhancer for us, as opposed to it being anything other than that.
Pat Murphy:
It's interesting what you say about how you're adopting AI. I read so many articles now that AI is going to be the death of visual effects. I mean, what's your point on that?
Mark Benson:
I don't see that.
I do see AI giving us opportunities to do things more effectively and, in some instances, in new ways that perhaps we wouldn't wouldn't have needed in the past. But I'm also seeing, fundamentally, the opportunities that are opening up with the scale of expectation on the work we do in terms of the formats, the scale of formats, the complexity of a theme park ride, the complexity of an experiential experience where AI is going to be the enabler as opposed to a restrictive factor in development. That's where we are right now. For us, visual effects continues to be a critical feeder of these new ways to engage, whether that's Vision effects, whether that's design, create production these are all the the tools of The Mill will continue to to prioritize as we find and develop solutions for our clients and our partners in the future.
And I think that I think the partnership piece for us is very empowering. I think back to what we worked with, the work we did together with FCB and Michelob in New York and the launch of the Formula 1 experience that was a collaboration between Michelob, FCB New York and The Mill and each partner playing such a critical part in the delivery of that experience. I think that is where we continue to see opportunities that recognise the expertise that different partners have in the collaboration and delivery of something very special and very impactful.
Pat Murphy:
You talk about collaboration, and in that particular instance, Mark, it worked brilliantly with the agency partner. It worked well with the client partner and yourselves, but that's not always the case, though, is it? Because you have a lot of agency groups wanting your work and bringing it internally? What's your viewpoint on that kind of in-housing?
Mark Benson:
I don't see it changing. I don't see the direction of travel changing. I see The Mill's response to that to be driving more innovation around the work that we do, the partners that we work with, and taking a position where we lead in terms of how content can be experienced and consumed in new and innovative ways. I think it is what it is. It there's a certain inevitability, I'm fine, as long as we continue to push the boundaries of where we feel comfortable, which is in areas of new, innovative, creative tech and experiences that
increasingly engage with immersive experiences, experiential experiences and new markets.
That's the position we take. It is what it is and it doesn't mean we don't continue to work with agencies and production companies as we do. We absolutely want to do that and we're firmly committed to that. We're also firmly committed to being clear what The Mill proposition can be for the future, or what it is today and what it can be for the future, and what that could mean to any partnership and any engagement.
Pat Murphy:
And is one of your strategies to do more and more work direct to client?
Mark Benson:
Sure! And I think that's driven fundamentally by the evolution of how brands are engaging and how brands are looking to engage, and I think it's driven by the right partners for the right delivery and the right execution. And I think, as brands continue to look to new relationships, The Mill is in a good place to recognize The Mill's place in that ecosystem. I think it's over 65% / 70% of brands that now have an in-house function of some form and I think the evolutions and the transformations are happening around us in many different ways and I think for me, in terms of The Mill, what we need to be clear about is our proposition, and our expertise and make sure that that is a clear proposition to the market.
Pat Murphy:
Do you ever say no to anything? Do you say no to any particular clients or type of work, or just kinda go ‘pay us the money and we'll do anything’?
Mark Benson:
No, I think we find ourselves engaging with work that's right for The Mill, and I think, rather than ‘no, I think it's ‘yes and’ so what I mean by that is how do we take what we're doing today with our clients and how do we develop relationships, how do we bring more to the table, as it were, and broaden our proposition, as opposed to looking at it another way?
Pat Murphy:
30 Years, Mark! Drawing from that extensive experience, what are the key innovations do you think that you anticipate will transform the creative production landscape over, say, the next 10 years, next, next decade? What challenges, and opportunities as well, do you foresee?
Mark Benson:
There's real momentum around the growth of experiential entertainment and I see it, I believe it and I think that is going to transform the business beyond anything we might have imagined in the past, because I think the world will continue to demand more of engagement that will be more immersive, because they the expectation around immersive engagement will continue to grow. I think that for content creators, for the storytellers, for the ambitious visionary storytellers, that is going to be a fertile space to engage and to be super competitive in that new space, and by that I mean creating experiences that people love, that talk about or they don't love or whatever they might be. But that will be in the space and I think that we continue to see real material growth in and will be exciting for
us all and will be exciting for us all.
Pat Murphy:
And I believe things that are more relevant to each of those customers, so more personalisation as well, I think, something that's going to be more engaging on an emotional level for each individual.
Mark Benson:
Absolutely, and that can be within a theatrical experience, it can be within a museum experience. It could be within a property experience. There are all manner of ways in which I think different industries that we never imagined we would engage in we will engage in by virtue of their need and the expectations around a more immersive engagement that those businesses will require. I'm very excited about how Elvis' evolution lands and how it is received. I see much more of that type of engagement in the future Because it's fun and it is a different engagement. It's not passive, it's very active and proactive.
Pat Murphy:
Mark, you've managed to last so long in one place and you have an incredible reputation as a leader, right? So, with all of these people that you now employ, how do you get the best out of everybody? How do you keep them motivated?
Mark Benson:
Well, it's very kind of you to say Pat! I think by continuing to look forwards and continue to look the opportunities for the future and to provide an environment and a workspace that has opportunity to learn, to flourish, to collaborate, to engage and to have fun and to be healthily competitive and to enjoy what that means in terms of producing work with colleagues and people around you that people talk about and that people are excited about, and to feel comfort around that, to feel that's a really good place to be and that's something we we prioritize.
Pat Murphy:
Do you make a point of knowing everybody's name? You've got a lot of people to remember now!
Mark Benson:
Yes, I try to. I try to be in our studios as much as possible and there's a balance. We have a brilliant leadership team, we have brilliant leaders across the business, as you would expect, and the way in which we engage is really important and that sense of belonging needs to be consistent and is a fundamental to our DNA. As the world continues to evolve and to transform, that sense of excitement and belonging and vision for the future is something we work very hard on sharing and communicating, because I think it's a real opportunity for everybody, and it's exciting.
Pat Murphy:
You will have seen many talented newbies coming into our industry from art or film school, and I think nurturing new talent is one of the duties that actually not just you guys have, but I think everybody in our industry has a duty to be able to nurture new talent coming through. What is your advice to that talent to make the best out of their career in the industry?
Mark Benson:
Great question! To be very clear about what you want to do, to investigate and be super provocative around the space that that you find yourself in. You don't have to have
all the answers to all the questions, but to ask all the questions and to be inquisitive and to have your finger on how the world is evolving in terms of content, in terms of entertainment, in terms of experiences, and to demonstrate your passion, and to understand what being part of a collaborative team and part of a group is all about.
Pat Murphy:
When I started as a runner. I just wanted to be in the business and I cannot believe that I still get paid to do this job. Do you feel the same way?
Mark Benson:
Likewise? Yes, absolutely, absolutely. As we started, it's a massive privilege to work with fantastic people. Our challenges are so bespoke and specific to what we do, but if we take a beat and recognise the environment in which we operate, the brilliant people we get to work with, the brilliant challenges that we're set, it continues to be just an amazing opportunity to make a living out of doing this and to be so fortunate to be doing so.
And I think that we go back to what we said a few moments ago, you know, recognising that we're as good as the work we produced yesterday and that's how we're judged, and that goes for the experience that our clients have, that it's as good as ever and it's as caring as ever. It's as good as ever and it's as caring as as ever then the fundamentals are there, but the excitement to me is how the opportunities are evolving and the learnings, therefore, will start again. We'll need to learn new ways to engage, new ways to partner, new ways to find solutions, new ways to deliver and new ways to celebrate success. And what, what does that mean? What it, what does that look like and that and there's so many learnings there for us I think we've got to understand more about what content means to our clients. What is a return on investment for our clients? Marrying that, alongside creative and tech, is something we've got to work out and understand. But it's coming, it's here, it's changing.
Pat Murphy:
I completely agree.
Mark, outside of work, what has meaning in your life? Do you have any passion projects that you have going on?
Mark Benson:
Well, my family are my major passion project. I mean other than my family. No, it's, it's about work and it's about their fulfilment and having time with my wife, Susie, when we can. Susie works very hard as a teacher so there's not as much time as we might like. I mean other than keeping fit and spending time with family. It's a good balance. And football, of course, other than keeping fit and spending time with family, it's a good balance for me.
Pat Murphy:
And football, of course.
Mark Benson:
Of course, of course there's plenty of time for the football and the rugby and any sport really that I can get my hands on.
Pat Murphy:
Brilliant stuff.
Finally, coming to the end of our podcast, the question we have to ask all of our guests, since it's become one of the highlights of the podcast. Mark, what's your favourite ad of all time?
Mark Benson:
I'm going to say the Reebok as if I may, because I was privileged to work on it. I thought it was a genius idea and a genius execution, and David Garth was someone that I admired enormously and was lucky enough to have as a client, and I thought that piece of work was completely awesome, alongside so many other pieces we know, but because I don't think anyone had delivered anything quite like that, or an idea that had Ryan Giggs celebrating gold with George Best and Bobby Charlton, and I thought that was my favourite moment.
Pat Murphy:
A brilliant ad and we'll post it up on the podcast website as well. So thank you so much, mark. An absolute pleasure talking to you today.
Mark Benson:
Oh, you're very kind. Thanks, Pat, great pleasure speaking to you. Thank you.
Pat Murphy:
Today we talked to Mark Benson, President of the Mill, the global creative powerhouse known for its innovative work, continuing to focus on the new ways in which brands communicate, engage and innovate across different media.
To find out more about the MCA Prodcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you'll find details on all my guests, links to their favourite ads and full transcriptions of all the episodes.
If you're enjoying the podcast, please do give us five stars and a review at your favourite podcast platform. If you have any comments, questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@murphycobb.com. I'm Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links in the notes for this episode will be there. We'd love to hear from you. If you loved the podcast, please give us that review! Thanks again to Mark, my team at MCA, and to my production team at What Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.