Jakson Anko van der Werff: Rebuilding SAS from the Inside täydellinen litterointi

is the closest you can get. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:03.360 Um, what is surprising is when as a Dutch guy you start living in Sweden, for instance, you think it's all the same. 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:07.840 People look the same, people dress the same, people right, as in as they do in the Netherlands. 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:13.280 Um, it is shockingly different once you really get under under the skin. 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:17.360 When you look at SES from the outside, it really looks at one, right? 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:17.920 It's one. 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.959 It's one beautiful brand. 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.079 By the way, one of the most beautiful brands, I think the the the style, the logo type, and everything. 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.439 The new library from what lot last year or three years ago is amazing all. 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:28.399 It's amazing, right? 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.079 I mean, really, really beautiful. 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:36.079 And um, and yet when you come into the country, when you come into the company, it's really three, right? 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:39.839 There is a Norwegian part, and there is very much a Swedish part, and there is a Danish part. 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.920 And yeah, it's it's uh it's very different in that sense. 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:53.040 Because even when you ask me, well, hey, as a Dutch guy living in Scandinavia, well, we have to be honest, even even Sweden and Denmark are, of course, very different, right? 00:04:53.199 --> 00:04:58.800 I think Denmark and the Netherlands are probably closest in their in their ways of working. 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:09.680 Um, I think already with Sweden there are quite some differences, um, very different cultures, uh, very different views on hierarchy or versus consensus, etc. 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:10.240 etc. 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:14.079 And so I think uh yeah, you you'll you'll be. 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:19.199 We were uh coming into Sweden the first time around, which was in 2005. 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:27.680 Uh we were really surprised that the biggest culture shock we've had in all those years was actually moving as Dutch guys to uh to Sweden. 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.879 I'm really fond of uh overly overly excited about the use of sarcasm and irony. 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:37.040 That has given me quite some problems using that in a business context in Sweden. 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:38.560 So uh you live and you learn. 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:42.639 Look, Ankus, there's one one thing I'm um I've thought a lot about. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.959 So every time I go traveling, right, I go to these massive airports. 00:05:47.120 --> 00:06:03.279 There's check-in and um lockage handling, infrastructure, ticketing systems, massive airlines, fueling, ground crew, pilots, cabin crew, change of schedule, change of cabin crew. 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:09.040 It must be the most difficult job on the freaking earth to be running an airline.

00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:13.279 Like, can you even try to explain how it is running such a complex business? 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:15.920 Uh I can at least tell you how exciting it is. 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:26.160 Um what I'm always I I find it funny because after 25, 26 years now in the business, you don't even realize how difficult it is sometimes, right? 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.600 I mean, it's just you you know for a fact that this is what it's like. 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:39.040 Um I remember talking to very senior consultants uh very early on in my career, and they always said that this is the most difficult business. 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:41.600 Um, indeed, because it it touches everything, right? 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:50.560 It goes from hardcore politics or geopolitics to the effects that has on oil price and rates of exchange and whatever, and then all the stakeholders, right? 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:58.399 Uh governments, uh uh business societies to, of course, just the general population, unionism, whatever, right? 00:06:58.480 --> 00:06:59.920 There's all these all these different things. 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:05.839 And then at the same time, you have to make 800 flights a day from Los Angeles to Tokyo work, right? 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:08.240 And so it's really difficult to manage all of that. 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:11.519 And at the same time, that is what makes it so fun. 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:16.160 Um I really honestly, after 26 years, I am still there. 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:17.759 I'm still genuinely there. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.120 That it's because it's so complex, it makes it so fun. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:24.240 Is is it is do you think it's a defensive industry also? 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:31.040 Is is there an opportunity for challenges to come in, or is it more or less like the alliance we have are the alliance we'll have in 10 years also? 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.079 No, I mean we've had, of course, a fair share of the of disruptors. 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:39.759 I think uh one of the big ones in Europe has has really truly become one of the biggest ones, of course, right, Ryanair. 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:41.120 They've done they've done an amazing job. 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:42.720 You have to be you have to be honest there. 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:50.399 Um the challenge is capital intensive, all those stakeholders that I managed, uh, that I spoke about uh earlier on that you have to manage. 00:07:50.639 --> 00:08:04.079 Um the capital requirement um with the access to all those supply chains that in the end then work the same for everybody, that is somewhat of a of a nivellating factor, uh, right? 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:15.199 And um yeah, I I think it is I think it's difficult to truly disrupt until you get to the point of uh teleportation, yeah, those kind of things. 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:32.399 Because until then it is a matter of well, there is a vehicle that's being used to generate speed um that with a car or a train you can't really get to, and cover distances where you actually don't have a road and infrastructure that you have to put in place. 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.279 But then there is rules and regulations, of course, around that. 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.519 So and those will be the same for everybody trying to play by those rules because otherwise it would be really chaotic. 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:41.679 Yeah. 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:43.759 So that is that is somewhat of a complication. 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.679 But I do think that everything else, uh customer experience, right? 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:56.480 Uh airport experiences, the digital experience, there you can really be uh you can add a lot of value as a brand. 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.120 It's been a few years since you took over the helm at uh SAS. 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:04.399 What shape do you think SAS was really in when you took over? 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:06.879 Because obviously it's an iconic brand of the Nordics. 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:13.120 It's also had its fair share of challenges over the course of the, I think, the last decade or so, or maybe prior to that. 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.720 What what what what what type of of an airline was it you took over? 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:24.159 Yeah, uh I I probably still haven't fully digested also because there's there's two things. 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:31.120 There was, of course, the shape the airline was in, and maybe the shape also Scandinavian air travel was in, right? 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.840 I came in pretty much at the back end of flight shame and right, all those things. 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:38.879 Um and then there was COVID. 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.000 And so I sometimes Yeah, exactly. 00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:49.039 And then sometimes look back, think, okay, was it because the state of the airline was X, or was it because society flight shame was Y? 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:51.440 Or was it because COVID was Z, right? 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:56.480 But the combination of those elements altogether was um we were clearly not doing well, right? 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.000 And I I I do think that had been going on for a while. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:18.080 Um, and so yeah, it was time for pretty much a harder reset, but it was also time for a harder reset and uh a more um profound probably reset than I had imagined coming in, uh, right, because I came in in July 2021. 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.159 Uh it was still the Delta variant. 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.799 Omicron hadn't even been invented yet. 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.279 Uh Russia hadn't invaded Ukraine yet. 00:10:25.440 --> 00:10:32.320 So it was, it was still, there was still some maybe naive hope of, well, we're we're gonna pull through, right? 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:33.440 We're gonna try this. 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:38.159 Um that went out the window as soon as those things happened that I just mentioned. 00:10:38.639 -->

00:10:42.720 Well, what are some of the larger decisions when you do that reset? 00:10:42.879 --> 00:10:44.399 Is it resetting the brand? 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:46.000 Is it getting hold of a new fleet? 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:47.519 Like is it a combination of everything? 00:10:47.840 --> 00:10:49.600 It's pretty much a bit of a combination of everything. 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:58.720 I mean, look, the first thing is that you actually have to get board, management, owners to the point that they actually want to do a restructuring. 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:04.159 Because when you never pull the cord, you're just gonna muddle on. 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:10.000 And that was very much something that I discussed with the board and owners at length, right? 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:22.720 I do not want to become a zombie airline, propped up by state funds infinitively, uh, just not being able to really invest in yourself, invest in your customers. 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.639 That was that was one of the ideas that I detested most, right? 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.960 That we just would keep on going. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.960 Um yeah, I don't know, being a zombie airline. 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.360 That was that was really the the words we always used. 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:45.519 Um, and so to get people there, to get people to say, okay, fine then, we're gonna do it differently, um, yeah, that required pretty much almost the first year anyway. 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:50.080 And then it became clear that we had to do something differently. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:54.639 And so pillar number one was let's do a restructuring. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:59.519 And then pillar number two is okay, well, fine, and you get to restructure, then what do you want to make of it? 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:06.399 And for me, essentially, some of that stuff was always extremely clear. 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:14.399 SES by itself, as an independent airline, I didn't believe made a lot of sense. 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:22.240 You're at the fringes of Europe, uh, there is it's a beautiful place in the world, as you and I both know, and we're gonna talk about it. 00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.759 Um, but it's only 25 million people that do not live in one city. 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:29.039 I lived in Mexico City for seven years, by the way, best place on earth. 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.559 We should go there once, but 25 million people in one city. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:39.360 And so if you connect Mexico City with Tokyo, which is also 25 million people, of course you're gonna fill a daily flight, right? 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:45.759 The biggest city in, or the the second biggest city in in Norway is Bergen, and it's got like 280,000 people, right? 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:47.200 I mean, that's that's not a lot. 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:52.799 So, how do you build something that works for a scattered part of the world, very north? 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.720 So that means that there is no northbound travel, basically, right? 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:01.120 Look at Sweden, 80% of Swedes live Stockholm or below. 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:04.559 And so, yeah, what are you gonna do with with the land above, right? 00:13:04.639 --> 00:13:07.679 So, how do you build something that then really works? 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:11.679 So, very clear for me was pillar number one, we're gonna do restructuring. 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:16.240 Pillar number two is that restructuring needs to focus on we need to consolidate, right? 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.399 You you need to be part of something bigger. 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:28.720 And if, and we believe when the European Commission approves this year of the Air France KLM takeover of SES, it's one in three, 2026, right? 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:29.759 I mean, it's ridiculous. 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:32.399 It's a long time, it's it's a long, long time. 00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:34.639 So that was pillar number two, right? 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.679 You need to do something around call it the ownership structure. 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.039 And then pivot number three was a lot of customer. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:46.559 And I'm an absolute religious believer in net promoter score, NPS. 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.559 Um, NPS was not measured, there was something else in place. 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:55.120 There was, of course, a customer focus, but I think we've really turned it into customer obsession. 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:09.200 I I think actually the real challenge of the old SCS was that even though we were owned partially by three different countries, those three countries realized that if they would put up a fight at board level, then they would never get anywhere. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:10.639 And so they didn't. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.919 But that, in my view, meant that we were an orphan. 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:18.080 The owners almost didn't act very much. 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:19.519 And you had no parent. 00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:21.200 You had no clear parent. 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:26.159 And and that is actually what I've seen from my from my years in Latin America. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.879 That is actually even more complex, complicated, right? 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:29.600 More complex. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.600 That you that you don't have an owner that you're completely aligned with. 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:40.399 And you can understand that if there's multiple state owners in you, that you're never never going to get that alignment, right? 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:44.639 Because of course those states would want to maybe fight for their own interests. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:46.639 And so they chose not to do that. 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:48.480 That's good on them, right? 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:53.519 Great, great for not fighting, but at the same time, not fighting meant orphanage, which is also not great. 00:14:53.679 --> 00:15:00.000 So one of the big fights

was, like I said, or the big resistance was well, can we even get to a restructuring? 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:06.240 And I think there, the internal opposition um was was quite stifling um in the beginning. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.519 People really did not want to get to a restructuring. 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.759 There was quite some opposition uh there from uh from even up to my own team. 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:23.360 Uh the interesting thing was that I went the other way, where with the owners there was more appetite than the board uh followed suit. 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:28.480 And then yeah, my team was still a bit, I think, uh yeah, I don't know. 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:34.960 It's it's it's rude to say confused, but um they were not really eager to to pull that off from day one. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:40.639 And then the second thing is we had lots of things where we wanted to make it an airline again. 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:44.879 And I found that it wasn't maybe enough um industry airline knowledge. 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:53.039 There was, of course, a lot of SAS airline knowledge in there, but that also meant a bit of not invented here syndrome, right? 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:57.759 Everything that was not SAS was immediately deemed, well, uh is that really right? 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.159 So can that be a smart idea, whatever. 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.799 When look at the rest of the world, right? 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:09.120 I mean, there's lots of things that other airlines have done over the years that are simply worth implementing. 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.240 So I think it's a it's a combination of those two things. 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:31.440 Getting to a restructuring really meant changes to the management team, to the to my surroundings, let's say, to get to restructuring and then execute on the restructuring really successfully, and then yeah, make it um a real airline based on real airline principles and values. 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:52.320 Do you think it's fair to say, and this you know, might be opinion also that in some aspects SES was falling a bit behind in comparison to some of their competitors in regards to innovation or the overall experience, because a lot of stuff happened at the same time in the overall airline industry, right? 00:16:52.399 --> 00:17:06.480 So it it felt it feels like when flying CES today that so many things has changed to the better in such a swift period of time, like last couple of years, the overall experience of flying with CES is it felt it feels like a massive upgrade. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:13.359 And I I assume that has been like you know difficult to pull off and also difficult to identify which levers are we pulling? 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:14.960 Where can we improve on the experience? 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:19.680 Where can we do things that will really resonate with the customers, which in any industry it's all about? 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:21.599 What what what's your thoughts about that? 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.960 Well, f first of all, my thought is well, thank you for saying that. 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:31.440 Because when we started this path a couple of years ago, it's not obvious that you'll get there, right? 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.000 And so we this has been blood, sweat, and tears. 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.240 I mean, you really uh I think everybody is. 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:42.160 I I'm I'm also now at a stage where I'm absolutely happy to share that it was just absolute hard work. 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:43.440 It's been very tough. 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.400 I mean, plenty of tears cried, and I don't know what. 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.440 And here we are. 00:17:47.519 --> 00:18:01.119 And so when people like you, and and I have to really say, many others are pointing uh or sending us emails, WhatsApps, whatever, LinkedIn messages, uh, and saying, look, it's such a pleasure flying SES again these days. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:02.799 Um, we're really, really grateful. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:03.839 This is really great. 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:06.160 So, yeah, what did we do there? 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:12.559 Um extremely complex because you touch upon hundreds of things, but very simple at the same time. 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.079 It's called NPS, right? 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:15.440 Net Promoter Score. 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:25.599 And so I remember in COVID, I think already in my first year, at the end of the first year, I think, we wanted to go out to our uh diamond members, right? 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:27.039 Golden Diamond members. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:32.319 Um, and we set up something which I believe the company had not done for many years. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.319 Um doesn't really matter. 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:47.359 Uh, but we said, let's go into the three capitals of Scandinavia, and we're gonna invite uh 300 people in each city, um, and we're gonna see if they show up and then have a conversation with them. 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:52.480 And that was the start of um the evenings, as we now call them, the evening of conversation. 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.640 And we've been uh we we were surprised. 00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:00.799 Let me let me first tell you because I it it it just it still blows my mind, and it's such a beautiful story at some time, right? 00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.440 And it tells you about the loyalty uh for this company as well. 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:11.039 So we we send out invites, and so there's 900 seats, 300, 300, 300, Stockholm, Copenhagen, and Oslo. 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.839 And it took 33 minutes for all 900 seats to be taken. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:19.039 All 900 seats taken in 33 minutes. 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:28.480 And the day that we were flying to Copenhagen to have that session with our Diamond customers, um, there's people on the aircraft that are coming to me and say, Oh, it's such a shame. 00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:33.680 I was

in the United States, I was in the middle of the night, I got that email, and then when I wake up, already all the seats taken. 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:34.160 It's gone. 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:35.759 So could I please attend tonight? 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:47.039 And could I and and this is 22, and we really were just coming out of COVID, and we had the the the strike in 22, and it was just right, all very difficult. 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:54.400 And yet people were feeling like that about us, and so that was that was truly awesome to see. 00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:05.920 And those evenings were, I think, the embodiment as well of our desire and my personal desire to really stay close to our customers because it allowed us two things. 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.759 One, okay, so now we're in chapter 11, we're doing this restructuring. 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:11.279 Here is what that means. 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:20.319 But we could immediately tell 900 of our most important clients, ourselves, what was going on, right? 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:22.720 We had the narrative and we could tell them. 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:28.079 And 900 people, that's on a total of 8 million euro bonus members, in a way that's negligible. 00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:35.200 But these are 900 people that of course talk to their super loyal, super loyal, talk to their friends, talk at birthday parties, talk wherever, right? 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.599 And so 900 people, hey, you you start to make an impact. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:53.200 And that was something that we got back fairly quickly because we then heard from others that said, oh, by the way, my friend was at that party and and and or at the event, and they heard you speak, and okay, thank you very much for taking the time and whatever. 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:58.960 So, one, it allowed us, of course, to in a way control the narrative still about what was going on with with SAS. 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:08.000 The second thing it did was, and we keep on doing that today, is one, what would you like to hear from us, right? 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:13.519 And so by by them asking questions, you know what is on their minds. 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:21.680 I'd say if five, six, seven people stand up on a on such an evening and they say, Oh, by the way, your on-time performance is really not great, and it hasn't been for a number of years. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:22.400 Okay, great. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:24.079 Well, on-time performance, right? 00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:27.119 Okay, well, what whatever they they spoke about. 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.480 But in those conversations, you then also are able to test. 00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:35.759 Okay, so you say that on-time performance is great, but is on-time performance more important to you than X or then Y? 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:38.400 Um, by the way, what about new destinations? 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:39.680 Where would you like to go? 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:46.319 And first time we were here in Copenhagen, so this must be September, October 22, I would think. 00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:53.279 Um with with that with that evening, we asked, should we reintroduce European business class? 00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:55.119 Because it was something that we were playing with. 00:21:55.279 --> 00:22:01.759 And it was something that the company as such was uh Maybe not a big fan of at that point. 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:04.960 They weren't convinced that this was really the way forward. 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.240 And it was very interesting what happens then. 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:12.640 Honestly, I'll tell you again, because Scandinavia were supposed to be all equal, right? 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:13.759 Everybody's equal. 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:16.880 And so, nah, no need for business class, right? 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.799 Because that means that you have in front of the curtain and back of the curtain. 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:22.079 And that's not us. 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.279 So publicly, people were like, eh, not so sure. 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:28.480 In the breaks, you should have seen what happened. 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:35.680 I had dozens and dozens in every single of the three capitals, people coming up to me and say, Great idea. 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:37.039 Absolute great idea. 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:37.920 It's ridiculous. 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.880 You don't have a business class at the moment, and you don't have this and you don't have that. 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:45.039 And British Airways and Lufthansa and Air France and Kelly, they all have you should do that. 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:56.480 So that was it, it it allows you to listen to your customers, test ideas, and then what we now do every single year, we say, okay, well, last year we heard you say one, two, three. 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.279 We have followed up on one and two, they're implemented. 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:01.519 Unfortunately, we're still lagging behind a number three. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:03.759 We're not perfect at number three, and we really apologize. 00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:05.039 Here we go again, right? 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.200 So what's your new number top three? 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:09.359 And we'll take number three from last year with us. 00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:16.720 And so doing that every year also builds, I think, credibility to we deeply care about you. 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.599 We care about what you want us to do. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:26.799 And by the way, that also it doesn't mean that we should always do what you want, because hey, if you want caviar and champagne for free, well, we're not going to do that. 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.599 But then at least we'll explain why we can't do that. 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:34.880 I think I wrote you a couple of times when I tried the new experience, like where hey, Ankman, it's amazing. 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:35.680 The food is awesome. 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:38.640

And you write back 30 seconds later, what do you think of the food? 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:38.880 Yeah. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:46.559 Like our food was awesome, it was really great, and the cuttery is nice, and a bit of a heavy dessert, and you're instantly, yeah, yeah, I'm the desserts are getting smaller. 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:51.599 So it feels like you're you're massively obsessed on like the finite details of that experience. 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:51.839 Yes. 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.200 How do you prior in that? 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.440 Like what what we don't know. 00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.640 And I think you as a as a founder, you know, right? 00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:00.160 I mean, so we've we've had years. 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:01.119 I mean, let's be honest. 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:07.839 We we really had a couple of years where you're working 16-hour days every single day, including the weekends, whatever, right? 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.759 And and sometimes more than that, including all the travel and I don't know what, right? 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.079 So, but I think that's what it needs. 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:20.000 And and where I where we are now, um, and and on-time performance was the same thing, for instance, right? 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.559 I was for about 20 months. 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.160 We have an internal dashboard on on-time performance. 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:31.279 And for 20 months, I was a number one user of that report internally, which is ridiculous, right? 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:32.480 Um, that that shouldn't be me. 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.160 That should, of course, be the operations team. 00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.759 And they was they were numbered two to 100, right? 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:48.480 But I was there, and I think it's a important that as a leader in the organization, you show the organization what you really care about, because it's not about me, me. 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.839 It's about I believe that our customers are telling us this. 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:58.079 And our customers are saying X, and now we're gonna do X, and I am following up on what our customers want. 00:24:58.319 --> 00:24:59.759 And so, very important. 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:05.359 And then I'm gonna take a sidestep to uh another Swedish icon. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:09.039 Um, this is Ingvar Kamrad, uh Kampert talking, right? 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:16.960 Because he still had they call it front weeks, and it's again one of those things that I just stole from from from another company. 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:31.200 Um, I want our leadership team to be out there, and what IKEA does is they do, I think, twice a year or once a year, their leaders go a week or two weeks, whatever, it doesn't really matter, an assigned period of time, and they go into the stores. 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:35.920 And Ingvar Kamprad still did that apparently until really late in his life. 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.799 And then I asked, okay, well, did you like the meatballs? 00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:40.480 Yeah, okay, how many did you get? 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:41.200 Well, eight. 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:42.319 Was eight enough? 00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.279 Well, yeah. 00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:44.960 Could it have been seven? 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:46.160 Should it have been nine? 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:46.640 Right. 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:52.079 And apparently, really, he went through the seven and nine question, even though people already said that eight was was good. 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:54.000 And that's what we're trying to do, right? 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:57.279 Are we are we seeing you serving coffee on the way to Stockholm? 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:04.000 Well, I've I yeah, would love to uh uh have registered actually once or twice, and then uh things happened. 00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:09.920 I did register for a um cabin crew course uh very early on, and then also life happens. 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.599 I I think I went there for one or two days, uh, couldn't finish it. 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:19.680 But yeah, it's it's good to be um and by the way, I really like that. 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:28.799 It is I I feel much better walking around at the airports uh uh talking to our pilots, our crew, our maintenance guys. 00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:29.839 Sitting in an office all day. 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:38.400 Sitting in office, or even worse, having to go into some, I don't know, uh, government meetings or which are also fun, which are also important. 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:39.839 Probably something different. 00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.799 So look, you you so you've been at it now for a few years. 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.720 It's been a massive transformation in many ways, probably not completely done yet. 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:52.400 You're still waiting for the authorities to approve on the new on the new ownership structure. 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:52.640 Yeah. 00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:55.680 Where do you find CES right now? 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:57.680 Like early 2026? 00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:59.200 What's what's the status now? 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:00.480 Yeah, we're getting there. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:13.039 I I I really when I look back now, I think about 12 months ago was really the first time I think that I started thinking, okay, maybe, maybe really we're gonna get there, right? 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:20.240 Um and and in a way, you're always convinced, because if you're not convinced, then who is? 00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.839 So you never really allow yourself, what if, what if it fails? 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:24.720 What if it doesn't work? 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:25.440 What if, right? 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.720 Those questions don't really pop your brain. 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:39.119 But I think about a year ago, and then certainly the summer last year was just stellar, um, was for the first time that you really think, hey, things are

happening, right? 00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.039 Things are moving at a pace that I like better than it was before. 00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:44.079 You could see the light. 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:47.839 Yeah, at a consistency that I like better than it was before. 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:52.480 Um, our customers are really starting to give us live feedback. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.279 Um love it, right? 00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:59.839 When people approach me on on board of an aircraft and say, well, just great, right? 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.279 Um, just just great. 00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:06.880 And you would always, it sounds such a marketing message, but it truly isn't. 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:08.319 This happens frequently. 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:16.880 This happens frequently that people walk up to us, and this is great, including uh very importantly, our own colleagues who keep on telling us that. 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.039 So yeah, it's um yeah, we are we're getting there. 00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.279 Lots more still to come. 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:28.160 Um investments needed, but are being made. 00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:32.160 Uh, one, we ordered uh 55 new aircraft last year. 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:32.960 Pretty cool. 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.039 They'll start coming in late 2027. 00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:36.240 Embraered, yes, right. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:37.440 Embraer's, yeah. 00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:41.039 Um, and at the same time, we get two more 350s in this year, right? 00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:42.000 The big uh the big bugs. 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:43.119 My favorite aircraft. 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:44.079 Yeah, yeah, no, beautiful. 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:44.960 Uh just beautiful. 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:45.839 Awesome experience. 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.000 Yeah, great customer experience. 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:53.039 Um, great custom experience because it gives us also more relevance as a company again, right? 00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.680 So when you fly to, of course, more long-haul destinations. 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.640 Um, so yeah, 350s, 320s. 00:28:58.720 --> 00:28:59.680 Uh, stay tuned. 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:01.119 I think there's going to be more on that. 00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:04.480 Then, of course, the Ember Air is coming in as of late next year. 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:11.119 And then um, new lounge in Copenhagen next year, double the uh space of what we have today. 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:16.640 And one that doesn't overlook the car park, but actually overlooks the airport, uh, aircraft, that'd be nice. 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:19.119 And investments in, for instance, Wi-Fi, right? 00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:21.039 We just tested uh Starlink last week. 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.319 And let's hold that for a second. 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.240 I have a bunch of questions for all folks in itself. 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:33.200 But look, um, so as as I I said in the intro, I think SAS is one of the most iconic Scandinavian

brands. 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:38.079 Um probably known by the entire population across all Scandinavian countries. 00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:43.200 Do you think having that iconic Nordic brand is an advantage? 00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.319 Or or could it be a burden also? 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:47.519 Yeah, both. 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.440 Um it definitely it definitely was both when when I joined. 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:59.119 Um because I haven't put this into words, so I need to I need to think whilst I'm talking. 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:08.240 But I think what happened was even our own employees saw it as some abstract it's SUS, right? 00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.599 It's SAS and it's almost untouchable. 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:24.160 And hold on guys, I mean SAS is is a group of decisions made by a group of highly skilled professionals taking together. 00:30:25.119 --> 00:30:25.599 Right? 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:33.119 And and so um one of my pillars is we should do more ancillary revenues. 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:33.680 Right? 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:42.880 And ancillary revenues is uh for me, and again it sounds corny, but it's just a hundred percent true. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:50.960 This is how I look upon this, it's personalization and and almost democratization to the max. 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:58.720 If you and I fly tomorrow and you have a pet and I don't, and you want to bring your pet, then by all means, right? 00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:03.440 Here's here's your pet, and it's just personalized and you pay for your pet and I don't. 00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:12.400 If you want an upgrade and I don't, if I want to bring two suitcases and you don't, if I want to bring, if I want to uh rent a car, if you want to book a hotel, right? 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:24.240 I mean, all of those things that I just mentioned should be possible for you to book under the SAS brand and on under the SAS website or app or whatever, but it's all personalization, right? 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:30.880 And yet, even internally, that was being seen as well, but that's what low-cost airlines do. 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:36.079 Yeah, guys, it's it's just so wrong to look at it that way, right? 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:40.640 It's real personalization and it's just customer obsession. 00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.559 Allow a customer to take the running customers are smart, right? 00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.200 Customers know what they want for themselves. 00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:52.559 We are in business to give them a variety of options and they can choose themselves, right? 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.599 Let customers take the decision, don't choose for them. 00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:04.880 And so when you look at SAS in the old style, maybe and you think, well, that's an abstract thing, then ancillaries didn't really come into play. 00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:09.680 And we have more than doubled, almost now tripled our ancillaries. 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:12.640 And ancillaries is uh is

a margin maker, right? 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:19.279 Because if you want to book a hotel, um fine, you could go to all sorts of websites and book a hotel. 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:23.599 I'd rather have you do that through us because then we get the commission for it, right? 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:27.200 And so that is something that we've really built into the company. 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:36.079 So I think it's uh it was a burden from the start, but it's um and that's what I call a bit the not invented here syndrome earlier on. 00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.279 But um, yeah, but that's that's behind us. 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:45.039 So a big big theme here in the uh northbound show is um creativity, also. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:47.759 I think it's one of the core skills in our region. 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:52.799 Um SAS has had has done a lot of business creativity recently. 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:59.440 You just spoke about um you know the ability to book an entire travel with SAS, so wholesales and everything. 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:10.160 You've also been truly innovating in other aspects of the business that might not give direct revenue or even revenues at all, but are you know really appealing to look at from the outside. 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.960 So you have this nation unknown. 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:18.480 Um you you recently fired up Starlink, as you were just saying in one of the first jets. 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.400 Um you were doing some Astralis crews, we're playing against each other, one flying, one on the ground. 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:26.559 I I think I I read that the flying crew won. 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:27.519 Yeah, they did actually. 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:33.920 I I think there's been so much SAS um innovation over maybe just the last year or so. 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.319 So, what is like do you have a strategy around that? 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.880 Is it more opportunistic for creativity that arises throughout the organization? 00:33:41.119 --> 00:33:41.759 How do you look at that? 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:51.759 Yeah, so so definitely also the last one, the the the letter, uh, because Destination Unknown was created by Matthias, one of our guys on the team. 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.160 Uh fantastic concept, right? 00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:55.599 Just just real fun. 00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:02.240 And uh and we really uh just just got onto it and said, yeah, absolutely, it's what we're gonna do. 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:08.880 Not realizing even ourselves, I don't even think Matthias knew at that point how big of uh of a thing it was gonna be. 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:17.760 So yeah, so um Paul Verhagen, our chief commercial officer and and the teams um launched it, and uh we've been doing it uh once a year since. 00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:21.440 We hope to be doing one this year again, later in the year, after the summer. 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.840 And uh stay tuned, uh drum roll. 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:26.480 I'll sign up on the website to try it myself. 00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:32.320 Now it is surprise and delight, but it's it is so simple. 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.760 What about the Starlink uh Astralis Burns? 00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:37.440 Uh Starlink was was amazing. 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:41.920 Starlink on all jets, so uh we can have proper Wi-Fi flying to the US. 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:42.320 Yeah. 00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.599 So it's gonna be in call it in in two stages. 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:46.880 There's gonna be pre-summer. 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:52.719 We want to have 60 aircraft ready pre-summer, and then we're gonna do the rest of the fleet after the summer. 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:54.880 And that will include the white bodies. 00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:57.440 Uh it was amazing, I have to say. 00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.840 It's just uh it's a gold standard out there. 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.119 I was uh I've flown now twice on the Starlink aircraft uh with the with SAS. 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:11.920 Um, I of course, but in the fortunate situation that it's uh that I know which aircraft uh has it and how to how to log on. 00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:16.480 We're still in the test phase, but uh we're gonna start soon roll it uh roll it out. 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.400 About 12 aircraft a month from now until the uh the summer peak. 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:21.840 Um strong. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:31.760 Just just have to say, we were live on Norwegian television, uh, and it comes out just when you look at it on TV, it is as if you're working from home somewhere. 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:34.719 And uh it just it's incredible, really incredible. 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:36.800 It's probably in in inspiring also. 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:41.599 There's another airline that uh often do their intros when you're embarking the flight with. 00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.960 Unfortunately, the Wi-Fi system is closed off on this flight. 00:35:45.119 --> 00:36:01.440 I've heard it sufficient amount of times to I don't I'm not sure there is a Wi-Fi system on that plane, even, but um Well, what I what I we we've had long discussions about that because a lot of I I think the current Wi-Fi that we're having is actually already superior to many other airlines in Europe anyway. 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.719 Um, and so why do we call it out when it doesn't work? 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:07.039 And and so should we just say nothing? 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:17.920 Because I flew on a uh particular German um uh airline uh the other day, and and they don't have anything in not not even uh uh charging in the seas. 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.519 I uh we should probably cut this. 00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:20.719 This is this is probably too much. 00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:21.760 It's probably too much. 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:28.320 Um but but but but the point is why why do we even it it comes back to one of those Scandinavian values, right? 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:30.159 It's

transparency, it's just honesty. 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.480 Look, we don't have Wi-Fi today. 00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.000 Um terribly sorry. 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:41.840 Um in a matter of months, 60 aircraft, end of the year, all of our SAS aircraft. 00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:42.000 Yeah. 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:46.320 So so speaking about that, there's a rollout plan for for for Starlink now. 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:49.840 But um, and I think this has been one of the media's favorite questions for you. 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.000 So I'm I'm gonna divide divide it into two. 00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:52.400 All right. 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:54.079 Uh the future outlook. 00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:58.719 And I think the vision of two might be future outlook. 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.920 Where do you see SAS in five, 10 years? 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:09.599 And then second part of that question is where do you see the experience of air travel evolving in five, 10 years? 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:09.840 Yeah. 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:14.480 I think the the media's question is probably more into does it still have an SAS logo on? 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:14.639 Yeah. 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.639 Five, ten years from now, sunny is right. 00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:17.119 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:18.639 So let's let's start with that. 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.920 It is surprising to me that that question keeps on popping up. 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:23.760 Okay, let's break it down. 00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:29.360 Air France bought KLM in 2004, it's 2026. 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.360 Has the KLM brand disappeared? 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:32.159 Not really. 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:33.840 Probably strong as ever. 00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.079 So let's build on that. 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:41.280 The KLM network has grown 63% since 2004. 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:48.559 So KLM has never been bigger, stronger, more relevant to its customers than it is today. 00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:59.199 Iberia was bought by um uh by British Airways in 2010, but Iberia's not bigger, never been bigger than it is today. 00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:02.559 Uh Swiss, Austrian, still in existence, right? 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:03.679 So come on. 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.880 Um I think we're really beyond that, beyond that point, right? 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:19.679 Being part of a big airline group in Europe will support us, will strengthen us, we can drive synergies, you can, of course, do all sorts of things in back office that as a customer you won't really notice, and that just will make us healthier. 00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:20.320 Um, right. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:26.480 So, um, and yes, let's be clear here because otherwise people are gonna say, oh, but he didn't say that the brand will survive. 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:28.400 The brand will survive, right? 00:38:28.559 --> 00:38:30.719 Absolutely, SAS will be there. 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:44.400 And I dare to say that out of the three, Airfront SKLM, and SAS, SAS will see the strongest growth at its hubs, multiple countries, certainly in Copenhagen, out of the three airlines. 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:46.639 Well, Copenhagen is an amazing airport, also. 00:38:47.199 --> 00:38:49.360 And and and let's be let's be very clear there, right? 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:58.559 Copenhagen is an amazing airport, and that's of course part of what the Airfront SKLM group is buying into, not least because Kippel Airport, Amsterdam, is full. 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:00.719 It's completely slot constrained. 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:02.559 There is no room for further growth. 00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.280 And what about the experience of air traveling five, ten years out? 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:11.280 You and I spoke briefly early on about in-flight entertainment. 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:17.599 I assume there's many other things that you're considering on an ongoing basis for for like future air travel. 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.320 I always think that a couple of things will come together. 00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:27.679 Um I was hoping for self-driving cars to take on or to take off. 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.440 Uh to take off a bit faster than what they're really doing. 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:36.400 I read Uber, uh Dana saying this morning that it's probably still gonna take 10 or 20 years. 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:39.039 But there's no autonomous air travel coming up anytime soon. 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:46.480 No, not anytime soon, but at some point in the future, but certainly not five or ten years, and I'm not gonna uh see that in my professional lifetime. 00:39:46.639 --> 00:40:00.800 But but what you I think you will see is as soon as we as humans get more used to self-driving technology, self-filling fridges, self-ordering, I don't know what around us. 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:11.679 Um, and two, military technology and military drone technology will develop further, then I do think you're gonna see a convergence of those two things at some point into flying. 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:15.760 But that will be one of the last frontiers, and again, not in my professional lifetime. 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:30.400 I think why I why I started with that self-driving technology is um right now, and I think you alluded to it somewhere in the beginning, uh, we are in this metal tube for up to 15 hours. 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:38.800 But the experience, apart from maybe a business class and economy class, is pretty much the same, uh homogeneous for everyone on board of that aircraft. 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:46.800 But you could start, of course, to think of mood lighting and personalized lighting, personalized settings that you have in your profile. 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:47.519 Um, right. 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:59.760 And so, really, from personalized food experiences, personalized color, uh, personalized lighting, personalized everything on board in that delivery, I think will be will be bigger. 00:41:00.000 -->

00:41:09.280 I still think that luxury will make its way back in again, uh, right, the same way as we're doing at the moment with, for instance, the reintroduction of European business laws. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:11.280 What about the aircraft as a whole? 00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.159 So there's a hard aerospace now working on electric. 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:16.239 There's a I lost the name of it. 00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:20.320 There's an um a company in the US working on a new Concorde style. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:20.880 Boom. 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:21.920 Yeah, boom, yeah. 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.920 I saw the prototyping of the small boom jet they were flying around the US. 00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:27.199 Do you think we're gonna see that? 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:31.920 Uh probably not anytime soon, but there's it seems like there's a lot of development on new types of aircraft. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:33.440 Yeah, there's at least new development. 00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:39.599 I I um yet have to be convinced uh on some of that. 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:42.400 Um propulsion techniques. 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:51.599 Uh look, one of the ones I was really hoping that they were gonna be successful, and I still am, is Airbus under hydrogen aircraft. 00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:57.760 Uh Airbus has an RD budget that far supersedes everyone we know, right? 00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.320 Apart maybe from a few US companies. 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:10.880 But if Airbus um can't make zero-based technology or at least hydrogen work, then it's really back to the drawing uh drawing board. 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:15.199 Um, they have postponed the introduction of their hydrogen aircraft by a couple of years. 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:17.039 They said 2035. 00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:20.000 Um now at least I think it's gonna be 2040. 00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.440 Uh again, that will surely um long time frame. 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.159 Yeah, and push it out of my working life, right? 00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:27.519 That's that's a shame. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:30.000 Uh so yeah, there's a lot of attention on it. 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:31.519 There's a lot of people trying. 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:38.800 Next month, uh, beta technologies are bringing their aircraft to uh that's a scoop, by the way, uh, to Stockholm. 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.840 Uh I don't think I should have announced that, but anyway, here you go. 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:43.119 Uh you're welcome. 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:48.000 Um and and so that's also one where we're really trying to see what is going on. 00:42:48.159 --> 00:42:50.320 So yeah, exciting space. 00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.440 Uh, and I really hope that someone will crack the code. 00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:57.360 But I don't think yeah, that's that's that's longer journeys. 00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:57.599 Yeah. 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:03.599 Doing what I at least see as a transformation of this iconic brand. 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:11.519 Um would be great to hear if you can if you can offer advice for people, you know, rebuilding brands. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:20.400 Uh, because I think in Scandinavia we've seen quite a few rebirths of smaller brands, mid-site brands. 00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:33.280 Um, you probably did it with most pressure from uh governments to all the Scandinavian countries to to creditors, to colleagues, etc. 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.800 So what you know, how do you keep a steady hand? 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:49.840 Yeah, I I I find that always uh I find it always difficult because because it sounds like um it it really sounds like we know everything and and uh and and we did a great job, I think. 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.400 Let's see in five or ten years, right, where we stand. 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:55.599 Um so so uh uh yeah. 00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.320 Um here is what we did, right? 00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.760 Let's just put it like that. 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:03.199 And then people can figure out whether that works for them or not. 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:09.119 I think it for us we knew what we wanted to achieve. 00:44:09.920 --> 00:44:16.559 And that was a multiple multifaceted kind of approach. 00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.320 It was the change of ownership. 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:25.519 Very important to get to that consolidation of SAS into a bigger European airline family. 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:31.920 Once you have that on your mind, then a lot of things will fall into place. 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.760 Two, the relevancy of the airline, right? 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:40.639 How can you make the airline more relevant again in its space to its consumers? 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.679 So network growth, how can you build the hub growth in Copenhagen? 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:47.199 For that you need the metal. 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.800 So again, once you decide that you do not want to shrink, or you or you maybe you do want to shrink, whatever, right? 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:53.840 I mean, maybe you want to grow. 00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:59.039 Once you know what you want to achieve there, then again a lot of things will fall into place. 00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:00.880 Three, customer obsession. 00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:08.639 Once you have determined that you really want NPS to be your driver, then again, a lot of things will fall into place. 00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:14.239 And you can reverse engineer your NPS to figure out where you need investments and where you want to make investments. 00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:18.239 And for us, that has, for instance, been on that on-time performance, right? 00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:24.000 Um, out of 655 airlines last year, we ended up as number three in the world, right? 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:27.039 So well, well done on on everybody. 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:34.000 So yeah, know what you want to achieve and on multiple fronts. 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:37.039 Um be obsessed, I think. 00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:42.719 And and I I I we know each other a bit, and I think most founders are, uh, right. 00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:50.480 I'm clearly not a founder, but I do, I think, manage it as if it's really our own shop, right? 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:52.880 If it's if it's our own entity. 00:45:53.119 --> 00:46:03.599 Um and and just seek constant feedback from our colleagues, from the market, from everywhere, just all sorts of inputs that we that we took along the way. 00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.320 You can always dismiss them in the end, right? 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:11.840 But um, but what we did we did always listen to what people had to say. 00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:19.039 Um, yeah, and then uh for us point number four was uh very much on execution, right? 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:26.800 Just make sure that it's I I think our execution has really been strong. 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:47.360 Uh if I complement the theme for for lots of things, then definitely this is one of them, because not only did we do did we do the financial restructuring, uh, which other airlines have done and other companies have done, but we threw in quite some difficult things in the mix there, not least changing 27 years of Star Alliance into Sky Theme, just on top of it, right? 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:51.599 I mean, just just for the fun of it, you know what, we're gonna do that at the same time. 00:46:51.760 --> 00:47:00.320 Um, and then that whole operational work at the same time, which also required IT investments and required, of course, customer investments. 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:06.559 Then what you know was now let's reintroduce European business class that we didn't have for, I don't know, 12 years or something. 00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:14.880 So it's we haven't made it easier on ourselves, and we did really um yeah, lots of things at the same time. 00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:17.840 I think I I I like that as final remarks. 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:23.119 I think being a really crisp and transparent on where you want to go, what you want to achieve, awesome. 00:47:23.360 --> 00:47:32.320 Customer obsession should be, you know, the um foundation of any business, but ability to execute, that's where it all starts, right? 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:36.159 So I think and uh and look what you guys have been pulling off the last couple of years looks amazing. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:40.000 Uh again, I want to wrap up appreciating your visit here to the studio. 00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:41.039 It was a pleasure having you. 00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:42.719 Pretty, pretty cool studio, by the way. 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:43.119 Well done. 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:44.480 Yeah, it's a good setup. 00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:49.360 Yeah, and I'm looking forward uh to my very next uh SAS flight, which is always a pleasure. 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.199 But Anko Man, thank you for coming by. 00:47:51.440 --> 00:47:52.639 Thank you very much for the invite. 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:53.440 Seriously.