Jakson 673: Daniel Coyle - Opening Yellow Doors, Mastering Your Craft, World-Class Storytelling Techniques, Great Questions to Ask, Building Your C täydellinen litterointi

00:04:21.389 --> 00:04:25.629 of craft always involves getting simpler, period, right? And is 78 00:04:25.689 --> 00:04:28.459 there an end to that? I know that I could 79 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:32.370 definitely be simpler because simple is not easy, right? And 80 00:04:32.389 --> 00:04:35.329 I think the great ones are always they've got their 81 00:04:35.389 --> 00:04:38.490 craft to where it is– where there's a simplicity to it. 82 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:42.110 And I feel hungry for more of that. Like especially 83 00:04:42.149 --> 00:04:44.000 in this world we live in where we're all trying 84 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.379 to communicate and there's so much clutter and noise and 85 00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:51.430 it's easy to want to compete with that. and bring 86 00:04:51.470 --> 00:04:54.769 a lot of energy and speed to your communications. And 87 00:04:54.810 --> 00:04:57.790 yet the stuff that really resonates is quieter for me 88 00:04:57.910 --> 00:05:00.660 and is simpler. And he, George Saunders, this writer we're 89 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:04.180 talking about, embodies that. And he really deeply has a 90 00:05:04.740 --> 00:05:06.819 beautiful explanation for how he does what he does. So 91 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:09.759 it's just, it's like reading, it happens to be about writing, 92 00:05:09.819 --> 00:05:11.910 but it sort of could be about archery or chess 93 00:05:11.949 --> 00:05:12.470 or baseball. 94 00:05:13.129 --> 00:05:16.269 What about like, how does climbing play a role with 95 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:17.490 any of that or does it? 96 00:05:18.199 --> 00:05:19.240 Yeah, I think it does. 97 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:21.740 Or is that just a challenge, like hard, do the 98 00:05:21.779 --> 00:05:25.319 hard thing with other people, develop relationships, doing hard things? 99 00:05:25.339 --> 00:05:27.480 I mean, that's some culture code stuff, right? Like doing 100 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:29.949 hard things together with other people. 101 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:34.569 Completely. Suffering, for instance, like suffering together, how powerful that is. 102 00:05:35.230 --> 00:05:39.589 Untangling things together, literally and figuratively is super powerful. And 103 00:05:39.610 --> 00:05:42.870 being vulnerable is super powerful. For me, if it is– 104 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:45.699 we're talking about this mountaintop of craft with climbing, I'm 105 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:47.800 at the very, very, very bottom. Like, how do I 106 00:05:47.860 --> 00:05:50.730 tie that knot? And with writing, I'm somewhere in the middle. 107 00:05:50.819 --> 00:05:53.490 So it's fun to feel– to have a couple of 108 00:05:53.529 --> 00:05:55.829 those zones in your life where you're a beginner again. 109 00:05:56.449 --> 00:06:00.230 And it's kind of freeing, liberating, but it also develops 110 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:04.629 empathy because there's some stuff that is really, really– it 111 00:06:04.730 --> 00:06:07.370 looks very simple, but it's not. And so it gives 112 00:06:07.389 --> 00:06:09.430 you empathy for– for people that are learning. 113 00:06:09.449 --> 00:06:11.610 You said one of your daughters wants to be a writer, 114 00:06:12.110 --> 00:06:16.189 but she's fiction, right? Does she come to you and say, dad, 115 00:06:16.329 --> 00:06:17.810 how do I do what you did? In a little 116 00:06:17.829 --> 00:06:20.569 bit different way, but, or is she, is she old 117 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:23.180 enough now where she's mature to say, my dad's actually really, 118 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.779 really good and legit and great. Cause you know, teenage years, 119 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:27.300 you're kind of, they're going to make fun of you 120 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:29.199 and all that stuff. That's not worth. How was that? 121 00:06:29.579 --> 00:06:32.160 Yeah, no, interesting. We've always had kind of a, I 122 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.160 think a good relationship. I've got, I've learned from her 123 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:39.490 a lot actually. Yeah. She's, reads really deeply. She's interested 124 00:06:39.550 --> 00:06:42.189 in kind of Greek myths and writing fiction off of that. 125 00:06:42.620 --> 00:06:44.360 And so that was a total education for me. So 126 00:06:44.389 --> 00:06:47.100 there was, it was a kind of a two-way dialogue. 127 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.759 She doesn't ask me my opinion very much, which is 128 00:06:50.420 --> 00:06:52.439 kind of a relief. I don't really know how she 129 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.699 does what she does, but it's been kind of fun. 130 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:56.779 I've had to lean on her sometimes and she leans 131 00:06:56.819 --> 00:06:57.480 on me sometimes. 132 00:06:57.779 --> 00:07:00.000 But the craft of storytelling is you're one of the 133 00:07:00.019 --> 00:07:03.120 best in the world at that element and then weaving 134 00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:06.550 the stories together. To help other people, I would say, 135 00:07:06.569 --> 00:07:09.180 to simplify that as much as I could. Yeah. What 136 00:07:09.189 --> 00:07:11.699 about that part, this craft of storytelling? 137 00:07:11.860 --> 00:07:15.500 Yeah. I've edited some of her stuff and I've tried 138 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.240 to– there's a thing in Ohio that's kind of strange. 139 00:07:18.300 --> 00:07:20.220 It should be everywhere. It's called Power of the Pen. 140 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:22.620 It's where you take writing and you turn it into 141 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:23.889 like a high school varsity sport. 142 00:07:23.910 --> 00:07:25.910 You've heard of this, Corey? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. 143 00:07:26.149 --> 00:07:26.370 Right? 144 00:07:26.569 --> 00:07:26.709 Yeah. 145 00:07:27.009 --> 00:07:27.449 It's the thing. 146 00:07:27.470 --> 00:07:29.430 Power of the– Oh, wow. Okay. 147 00:07:29.449 --> 00:07:30.889 It's the thing. And the way it works is you 148 00:07:30.910 --> 00:07:33.269 have a little team from different schools. They're all middle 149

00:07:33.290 --> 00:07:35.589 school kids, I think. And you all go to a 150 00:07:35.670 --> 00:07:38.269 gym and you get a prompt, 20 minutes, go. And 151 00:07:38.290 --> 00:07:40.449 then there are judges that write all the essay, all 152 00:07:40.529 --> 00:07:43.319 the short stories. They're like, the prompt is a tree 153 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:46.300 in spring. Go write, go. A prompt is my dog 154 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:50.160 is sick. Go. And everybody writes a story based on 155 00:07:50.180 --> 00:07:51.939 that prompt. And then those stories are judged and you 156 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:53.279 write three of them in a day. And then the 157 00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:56.329 winners get trophies. And it's just this crazy fun thing. Well, 158 00:07:56.410 --> 00:07:58.889 I happened to coach the middle school team when my 159 00:07:58.930 --> 00:08:00.910 daughter Zoe was there. And then Zoe went on to 160 00:08:00.949 --> 00:08:02.990 become the coach of the team when she got older. 161 00:08:03.029 --> 00:08:05.100 So And she was a way better coach than I 162 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:06.319 was because she was closer. 163 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.259 She was more of a peer of the kids. And, 164 00:08:08.670 --> 00:08:10.850 you know, storytelling is a craft because there always is, 165 00:08:10.930 --> 00:08:14.610 there's some desire, there's some obstacle, and there's some transformation 166 00:08:15.050 --> 00:08:17.889 in every good story, right? There's like, I want to do, 167 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:19.550 I want to get somewhere. There's this thing standing in 168 00:08:19.569 --> 00:08:21.670 my way. And then there's some transformation on that journey. 169 00:08:22.509 --> 00:08:25.709 It's like everything, like teaching it teaches you. And so 170 00:08:25.769 --> 00:08:27.480 being the coach there really helped me, being the coach 171 00:08:27.509 --> 00:08:29.399 there really helped Zoe. And then Zoe ended up coaching 172 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:30.819 me and I ended up coaching Zoe a little bit. 173 00:08:30.839 --> 00:08:34.330 So it was never this like, transmit, let me teach 174 00:08:34.389 --> 00:08:36.909 all my wisdom to my daughter. It was much more 175 00:08:36.929 --> 00:08:39.799 of a rich two-way dialogue that I think ended up 176 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:41.159 helping both of us a little bit. 177 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.620 Man, I love hearing stories like that. I'm going to 178 00:08:43.659 --> 00:08:46.740 pepper you forever about your, since you're a little bit 179 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:48.879 ahead of me. And so I'm always going to be like, oh, 180 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.710 this is, seems like you figured some things out in 181 00:08:51.730 --> 00:08:54.289 this really hard game of being a dad with daughters. 182 00:08:54.370 --> 00:08:57.070 And it's the most important thing in the world and 183 00:08:57.090 --> 00:08:58.970 the coolest thing in the world. Talk about suffering together. 184 00:08:59.539 -->

00:09:02.570 That's why I love skiing together. Maybe it's just so– 185 00:09:02.690 --> 00:09:04.269 I don't know how you feel about this, but like 186 00:09:04.669 --> 00:09:07.700 this idea of skiing with your kids and seeing them 187 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:10.600 fall and then they got to get themselves back up. 188 00:09:10.919 --> 00:09:12.360 And then keep going. And then by the end of 189 00:09:12.379 --> 00:09:14.539 the day to see the smile on their face and 190 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.899 they've kind of conquered a hard thing and you did 191 00:09:16.940 --> 00:09:19.659 it together and you got in the hot tub together afterwards. Like, 192 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:20.559 does it get better than that? 193 00:09:20.580 --> 00:09:21.139 It's the perfect day. 194 00:09:21.179 --> 00:09:21.799 Does it get better? 195 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:22.460 It does not. 196 00:09:22.580 --> 00:09:23.379 I don't know if it does. 197 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:23.830 It does not. 198 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:25.379 With your kids and your wife, like, I don't know if. 199 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:26.159 It gets any better than that. 200 00:09:26.179 --> 00:09:26.379 No, no, no. 201 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:29.019 It's a perfect day. And they have the perfect amount 202 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.320 of like freedom and togetherness. It's like every run is 203 00:09:31.379 --> 00:09:34.179 like freedom and then togetherness, freedom and then togetherness. There's 204 00:09:34.210 --> 00:09:36.659 such a great pulse in that. It is like the 205 00:09:36.730 --> 00:09:37.529 pulse of family. 206 00:09:37.610 --> 00:09:40.590 It's so good. Okay. Flourish. So it was so cool 207 00:09:40.789 --> 00:09:42.629 to get this book from your team. I appreciate you 208 00:09:42.649 --> 00:09:44.769 sending it to me and they sent me the PDF too. 209 00:09:45.250 --> 00:09:47.340 So I was devouring it and taking so many notes. 210 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:49.620 I got to start at actually the very beginning. 211 00:09:49.659 --> 00:09:49.940 Yeah. 212 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.460 We were just talking about Jenny. Right. You guys are 213 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.029 now empty nesters. You're still figuring it out. 214 00:09:55.149 --> 00:09:55.289 Yep. 215 00:09:55.750 --> 00:09:58.950 But you dedicate it to her and just says for Jenny, 216 00:09:59.049 --> 00:09:59.970 like a simplicity in that. 217 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:00.480 Yep. 218 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:04.639 How does she help you, Dan Coyle, flourish? 219 00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:07.120 Oh my God. In every possible way. There's not a 220 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.700 book deep enough or long enough to tell that story. 221 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.450 But yeah, it being, you know, one of the lessons 222 00:10:15.529 --> 00:10:18.850 of getting older is, And I just turned 60. So 223 00:10:18.909 --> 00:10:21.370 it's like, this is like, this is like. 224 00:10:21.509 --> 00:10:22.470 It's hard to believe. 225 00:10:22.629 --> 00:10:23.450 It is. 226 00:10:23.710 --> 00:10:24.470 You think it's hard to believe. 227 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:25.970 I'm looking at you. It's hard to believe. 228 00:10:26.090 --> 00:10:27.450 I'm just saying you look great. 229 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:31.580 No, it's one of the things is like, I think 230 00:10:31.659 --> 00:10:33.700 growing up, I always had the idea of kind of 231 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:37.779 individual success, individual greatness. It's like, we were fed all 232 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:41.740 these stories about kind of heroic journeys of improvement. And, 233 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.139 and a lot of the information we get is how 234 00:10:44.250 --> 00:10:47.600 we can get better as individuals. And, Over and over again, 235 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:50.779 I keep seeing when you scratch one of those individual stories, 236 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:54.379 what is revealed is a community of people. And it's 237 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:57.340 a community of people who support in ways that they 238 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.159 don't even realize they're supporting. But we're all deeply enmeshed 239 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.730 in these kind of ecosystems. And so Jenny is like 240 00:11:03.789 --> 00:11:05.509 the ecosystem for me to be able to do what 241 00:11:05.549 --> 00:11:08.730 I do. Because what I do, similar to I think 242 00:11:08.889 --> 00:11:11.250 a lot of careers, it's like it doesn't actually make 243 00:11:11.289 --> 00:11:14.659 that much sense. Going from writing project to writing project, 244 00:11:14.710 --> 00:11:18.250 hoping stuff works out, exploring. Some of those explorations work out. 245 00:11:18.289 --> 00:11:21.789 Some of them don't. It ain't efficient. It ain't like 246 00:11:22.190 --> 00:11:23.769 getting on the train and going to your work and 247 00:11:23.809 --> 00:11:25.450 then coming back and getting on the train and coming 248 00:11:25.490 --> 00:11:27.929 home at 5 o'clock every day. It's not that. It's, 249 00:11:28.429 --> 00:11:31.009 I think I need to go to Russia. I think 250 00:11:31.070 --> 00:11:34.279 I need to spend some time digging into this. It's 251 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.789 not knowing where the next check is going to come from. It's, 252 00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:39.309 you know, hoping that that works out. And so she's been, 253 00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:41.769 you know, more than a partner during all that time 254 00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:45.289 and being an incredible teammate, incredible support. So all my 255 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:47.820 books are dedicated to her with the exception of one. 256 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.059 I don't have to think long about who to dedicate 257 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:50.350 books to. 258 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.480 That's cool, man. I love stories like that. And when 259 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:55.100 you look at people who have sustained excellence over time, 260 00:11:55.139 --> 00:11:58.169 it seems like that's one of the

commonalities is either 261 00:11:58.190 --> 00:12:02.549 their who in general, or in your case, that plus who. 262 00:12:03.220 --> 00:12:06.700 this rock of a support system at home that you 263 00:12:06.779 --> 00:12:10.259 love unconditionally and have built a life with. The other 264 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:14.940 thing you write about is yellow doors. I loved reading 265 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.899 more about yellow doors. Can you explain this idea of 266 00:12:17.950 --> 00:12:19.970 what yellow doors are and how you're trying to make 267 00:12:19.990 --> 00:12:21.519 the most of them? Yeah, no. 268 00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:24.330 I mean, most of us go through our lives. This, 269 00:12:24.370 --> 00:12:26.330 by the way, it's an idea from a Columbia University 270 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:29.250 psychologist named Lisa Miller. And what she points out is 271 00:12:29.269 --> 00:12:31.370 that most of us go through our lives looking for 272 00:12:31.409 --> 00:12:34.500 the green doors that are open. Clear go. Let's go. 273 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.980 Not to be too McConaughey. I don't know how he 274 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:40.570 would even say his own name. Green lights. 275 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.990 It's a good book. It's amazing. The audio book's really good. 276 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:45.529 Oh, I'll bet it is. Yeah. 277 00:12:45.590 --> 00:12:48.070 He's a voice actor. I mean, he's great. 278 00:12:48.409 --> 00:12:49.909 Most of us go through life looking for the green 279 00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:52.889 doors that are open and the red doors that are closed. 280 00:12:52.929 --> 00:12:55.690 Like that's clearly a path forward for me. That's clearly 281 00:12:55.990 --> 00:12:58.149 a path I should not go. And there's a lot 282 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:00.590 of those in life, right? But that I have yellow 283 00:13:00.629 --> 00:13:03.149 doors is that there's another kind of door, right? That's 284 00:13:03.190 --> 00:13:05.049 kind of out of the corner of your eye. It 285 00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:08.169 might be something that makes you uncomfortable. It might be 286 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:12.279 something that's brand new, but that's where life actually happens. 287 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:16.840 One of the reasons that that's true is that, you know, 288 00:13:16.860 --> 00:13:20.700 we tend to think and perceive things in straight lines. 289 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:22.820 We tend to sort of go from A to B 290 00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:24.299 to C to D and sort of think of life 291 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.480 as this big, I don't know, like a big game. Right? 292 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:29.919 A big game that has rules and you should analyze, 293 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.419 follow the rules, make good decisions. But in fact, that's 294 00:13:32.470 --> 00:13:35.129 like a misperception. I think I've come to believe that 295 00:13:35.169 --> 00:13:37.970 that is absolutely wrong. Life is actually not a game. 296 00:13:38.250 --> 00:13:41.409 Games are machines. Life is– there are elements of life 297 00:13:41.429 --> 00:13:42.190 that are like a game. 298 00:13:42.330 --> 00:13:42.879 Parts of it are. 299 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:46.600 But deep, deep down, it ain't a game. It ain't. 300 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:51.059 This is something– it is a living thing. It's complex. 301 00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:55.580 And complex things don't have straight lines. They've got like 302 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.940 little doorways and pathways and it's like this jungle trail 303 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.620 that keeps shifting and moving and you're moving along with it. 304 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:06.110 There's some weird science connected to this that basically says 305 00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:10.169 it's about complexity, right? All of life's problems, there are 306 00:14:10.190 --> 00:14:13.789 two kinds of problems in life. Some are complicated and 307 00:14:13.809 --> 00:14:15.929 some are complex. And we typically use those two words 308 00:14:16.049 --> 00:14:20.019 like interchangeably, right? They're not. Like complex is really different 309 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:23.360 than complicated. And I found this to be really, really useful. 310 00:14:23.940 --> 00:14:27.309 Complicated things come together the same way every time. A 311 00:14:27.330 --> 00:14:29.029 goes to B goes to C. There's cause and effect. 312 00:14:29.610 --> 00:14:32.610 It's unchangeable. Like I could, if I told you to 313 00:14:32.690 --> 00:14:35.629 build a Ford Mustang and gave you all the information 314 00:14:35.669 --> 00:14:37.909 and all the materials and a set of instructions that 315 00:14:37.929 --> 00:14:39.980 was accurate and you followed those instructions, you would have 316 00:14:40.019 --> 00:14:43.700 a Ford Mustang every time, right? That's complicated. It takes, 317 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.580 you have to analyze, it takes expertise, but it's complicated. 318 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:51.409 Complex is, are problems where when you involve yourself in them, 319 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:55.169 they change. So the difference is, is this more like 320 00:14:55.220 --> 00:14:57.440 building a Ford Mustang or is this more like raising 321 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.480 a teenager? There's no script I can give you, as 322 00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:02.919 we know. There is no set of instructions. There's no 323 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:05.200 A to B to C to D. It ain't complicated. 324 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:12.159 It's freaking complex, which means everything I do changes the relationship, right? 325 00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:16.039 Complex things live in relationship. And so- That's where the 326 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.460 yellow door idea really resonates for me because it's like 327 00:15:18.500 --> 00:15:20.679 when you think of your life as complicated, you think, oh, 328 00:15:20.700 --> 00:15:22.059 what's the next good move? I just need to make 329 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.200 one good move. It's

straight lines. I'll be able to 330 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.580 figure it out. I need to analyze it more. I 331 00:15:25.580 --> 00:15:28.159 need to think about it more. Complexity is like, wait 332 00:15:28.179 --> 00:15:31.450 a minute. There's like something opening up over here. Let 333 00:15:31.470 --> 00:15:34.730 me check that out. That seems interesting. Let me probe. 334 00:15:35.669 --> 00:15:37.549 And to go back to ground it in the science, 335 00:15:38.509 --> 00:15:41.350 if you've got a complicated problem, you need to analyze it. 336 00:15:42.029 --> 00:15:44.309 Find out, where are you in that list of instructions? Like, 337 00:15:44.370 --> 00:15:47.669 get the next best instruction. Find the expert. Follow the guide. 338 00:15:48.049 --> 00:15:51.580 But if you're in a complex problem, information is not helpful. 339 00:15:52.019 --> 00:15:54.879 If you're in a complex problem, you got to probe. Like, 340 00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:58.240 you got to test out. Take a step into that 341 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.200 yellow door and be like, huh, that sucked. I'm going 342 00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:04.309 to turn around. Or, whoa, that's kind of cool. I'm 343 00:16:04.350 --> 00:16:06.889 going to keep going and see what the next step is. 344 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.840 And so what I see in highly... kind of thriving people, 345 00:16:10.899 --> 00:16:14.120 especially in people that I studied for this book, was 346 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.759 this willingness to kind of let go of analysis, kind 347 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:22.080 of let go of information and let their experience guide them. Say, 348 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.610 let's try that. It seems kind of stupid. I can 349 00:16:25.649 --> 00:16:27.710 make all kinds of logical reasons why it won't work, 350 00:16:27.750 --> 00:16:29.330 but I'm going to let go of logic for just 351 00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:33.370 a second. And I'm going to actually probe and see 352 00:16:33.389 --> 00:16:36.129 what happens. I'm going to actually live it. And then 353 00:16:36.269 --> 00:16:37.409 I'll get some information by. 354 00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:38.169 Doing that, right? 355 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.950 So they're living their way forward into these questions, into 356 00:16:41.970 --> 00:16:45.149 these yellow doors. Like you're living into the question. That's 357 00:16:45.169 --> 00:16:47.870 the way there was a poet a long time ago, Rilke, 358 00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:51.409 the poet. Somebody asked him, he got older, they asked him, 359 00:16:51.429 --> 00:16:54.870 it was a young, letters to a young poet. So 360 00:16:55.269 --> 00:16:57.190 somebody wrote him, how do I live my life? And 361 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:01.250 he wrote back. And Rilke said, live the question. That's 362 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:03.509 how you should live your life. Live into the question. 363 00:17:03.990 --> 00:17:06.119 And That's what I kept seeing in these flourishing groups 364 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:09.440 that I've been spending the last five years visiting. They're 365 00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.779 not about the answers. And we live in this age 366 00:17:12.819 --> 00:17:16.319 where answers are as cheap as tap water, right? AI 367 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:19.519 will give you the answers. We have the answers. But 368 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:22.240 do we have the questions? And are we noticing the 369 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.140 questions that are just in the corner of our eye? 370 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:26.740 And are we able to live into those questions in 371 00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:30.910 ways that help us to grow? That's what flourishing is. 372 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:34.160 This idea of being... I found you since, I don't 373 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:36.920 even know how many years we've been talking now, from 374 00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:40.559 that first meeting, dinner, breakfast, all of them. When you 375 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.240 asked me to come up and hang out, at the 376 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.670 time I think they were still the Cleveland Indians, Chris Antonetti, 377 00:17:47.269 --> 00:17:51.809 Jay Hennessey, you, there were some others in the room. 378 00:17:52.549 --> 00:17:55.210 And I was just, one, I thought this is the 379 00:17:55.230 --> 00:17:57.430 coolest thing just to be in this room, president of 380 00:17:57.450 --> 00:18:00.960 a baseball team who's crushed it, you, a guy who 381 00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:04.789 I've idolized as a writer. Josh Gibson, another brilliant guy. 382 00:18:05.789 --> 00:18:11.150 And the level of curiosity just blew my mind. Because 383 00:18:11.230 --> 00:18:13.299 those are the guys who should be telling me everything. 384 00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:16.019 I showed up trying to learn and learn. And all 385 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:17.799 that Chris and you and everybody in the room was 386 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.700 doing was peppering me. I couldn't believe guys that had 387 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.119 this stature and this level of excellence that they have 388 00:18:25.180 --> 00:18:29.569 sustained over time. And yet... They were as curious as 389 00:18:29.710 --> 00:18:32.210 anybody I've ever met. I just love to hear you 390 00:18:32.230 --> 00:18:34.970 kind of riff on the level of curiosity amongst the 391 00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:37.420 leadership with the Cleveland Guardians, the guys that you are 392 00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:41.240 an intern for. I mean, just to hear more, like, 393 00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:43.640 and how cool it is to be in an environment 394 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:44.420 like that. It is. 395 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:46.079 It's totally energizing, right? 396 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:49.049 I feel like that's a part of this too, though. Like, 397 00:18:49.069 --> 00:18:51.430 it's kind of like, you know, like a curiosity about life. 398 00:18:51.509 --> 00:18:54.130 Yeah, I know. I know. Well, I mean, if we really, 399 00:18:54.549 --> 00:18:56.650 you

know, we can dig into the Guardians some more. 400 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.819 Because for me, they really do embody that curiosity. And 401 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:04.660 it's really easy, especially in sports, especially in high performance stuff, 402 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:07.240 to focus on those answers. The thing that I like 403 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:12.200 about hanging out with them is that they raise everybody's level. 404 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:19.799 Answers stop conversations. And by stopping conversations, they don't fuel relationships. 405 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:26.160 They don't. Questions bring people together, right? And the ability 406 00:19:26.289 --> 00:19:30.000 to Really, especially as you move up in the world, 407 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:32.759 as you get older, as you have a higher status, 408 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:36.119 it becomes increasingly tempting. If you have the model of leadership, 409 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.440 that a leader is the pilot of the boat and 410 00:19:38.460 --> 00:19:40.140 the person who's flipping the levers and has the answers. 411 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.289 And that's how I grew up thinking of leaders. 412 00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:42.710 Sure. 413 00:19:42.750 --> 00:19:43.950 Right? They were the ones with the answers. 414 00:19:44.029 --> 00:19:44.190 Yeah. 415 00:19:44.569 --> 00:19:46.650 It becomes tempting to become that. And all the other 416 00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:48.670 signals you get in the organization reinforce that. So it 417 00:19:48.710 --> 00:19:53.259 takes a really special personality. think, to realize and a 418 00:19:53.299 --> 00:19:57.450 really different model for what a business is, for what 419 00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:00.990 a high-performance organization is. You know, we typically think of 420 00:20:01.049 --> 00:20:04.150 them as kind of machines. You know, Indiana football last 421 00:20:04.210 --> 00:20:06.710 night looked like a freaking machine, right? They win the 422 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.900 national championships. We think of the SEALs as a machine. 423 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:12.339 We think of Pixar as a machine. But actually, when 424 00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:15.420 you get close to those organizations, they're not functioning like machines. 425 00:20:15.859 --> 00:20:20.000 Machines are controlled from the outside, and they're very predictable, 426 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.799 and they produce a predictable result. That's why they're machines, right? 427 00:20:23.140 --> 00:20:26.440 But what we're having here is more of an enlivening, 428 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.789 an animating of energy that's hidden. Those questions, why are 429 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:34.509 they powerful? Because they bring out people's energy and curiosity. 430 00:20:34.549 --> 00:20:39.650 Why is curiosity so powerful? Because It creates these explorations. 431 00:20:40.670 --> 00:20:43.930 And leaders who are good at like lobbing that question 432 00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:47.150 in and then closing their mouth, it's the most powerful 433 00:20:47.190 --> 00:20:50.390 skill because it's not a machine. Because these organizations are 434 00:20:50.430 --> 00:20:53.470 actually more like these energy channels that are exploring stuff. 435 00:20:53.490 --> 00:20:55.910 They're more like rivers. It's like a river. How do 436 00:20:55.930 --> 00:20:58.309 you make a river flow? Well, you give it a 437 00:20:58.650 --> 00:21:01.670 horizon to flow toward, like where are we going? You 438 00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:03.890 set up some riverbanks, which is where we're not going 439 00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:05.190 to go. We're not going to go to either side 440 00:21:05.210 --> 00:21:07.390 of this. But inside the space, I want to create 441 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:11.289 energy and agency. And questions do that. And it's a 442 00:21:11.349 --> 00:21:14.910 super interesting skill too, because in the book, I write 443 00:21:14.930 --> 00:21:17.430 a little bit about Peter Block, who's like one of 444 00:21:17.450 --> 00:21:20.849 the best ever at answering and asking these questions and 445 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:26.390 exploring these questions. And the questions that work in these situations, 446 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:28.650 whether it's at the Guardians or somewhere else, they're not 447 00:21:28.710 --> 00:21:32.130 questions that are kind of fact-based. They're more like deep questions, 448 00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:35.650 like what makes a great player? what happens in championship 449 00:21:35.690 --> 00:21:39.250 locker rooms? Like there are questions that are impossible to 450 00:21:39.950 --> 00:21:42.559 simply answer. So what they do is they kind of 451 00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:48.720 spark more exploration. And in that exploration, something bubbles up usually. 452 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.299 And the funny thing about those conversations that I've had 453 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.710 in the guardians a million times is like, you'll be 454 00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:56.630 in a meeting, somebody will put in a question, like 455 00:21:57.210 --> 00:21:59.269 how do great hitters recognize pitches, whatever it might be. 456 00:21:59.849 --> 00:22:02.029 And this conversation will happen and some ideas will bubble 457 00:22:02.109 --> 00:22:04.240 up and it's later on, no one will know where 458 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:07.700 those ideas came from. It wasn't exactly you. It wasn't 459 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.369 exactly me. We were building on ideas. You threw out 460 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:13.009 an idea and I built on it. Somebody else built 461 00:22:13.089 --> 00:22:14.730 on it. Somebody else built on it. And all of 462 00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:17.650 a sudden you walk out with not only energy, but 463 00:22:17.859 --> 00:22:21.710 agency and a fresh idea. And so- It cracks me 464 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:23.730 up actually to go, you still can go to some 465 00:22:23.769 --> 00:22:25.970 places and they're still in that

old model of leadership 466 00:22:26.009 --> 00:22:28.789 where it's like, I'm the answer man. I'm the answer woman. 467 00:22:29.009 --> 00:22:31.549 I will speak first. I will speak last. I will 468 00:22:31.670 --> 00:22:34.559 not invite conversation. And my role is to deliver the truth. 469 00:22:35.339 --> 00:22:37.319 And I can see how that would have worked. Like 470 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.460 that would have worked on Mad Men. That would have 471 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:42.000 worked in the 50s, 60s, and 70s when we didn't 472 00:22:42.099 --> 00:22:46.720 have so many answers around, where we didn't have the challenging, 473 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.690 changing landscape that we're in. Like, but now the landscape's 474 00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:51.849 freaking moving. 475 00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:52.329 Yeah. 476 00:22:52.450 --> 00:22:54.869 And the idea that one guy can have all the 477 00:22:54.970 --> 00:22:56.930 answers is actually kind of insane. 478 00:22:57.029 --> 00:22:57.329 Yeah, it is. 479 00:22:57.349 --> 00:22:59.190 I was like, that doesn't work. So how do we 480 00:22:59.250 --> 00:23:01.029 create those conversations? Team dialogue. 481 00:23:01.069 --> 00:23:03.390 I think I learned this, like, dialogos. Was this from 482 00:23:03.490 --> 00:23:06.369 Jay and you probably? Is it Peter Senge? How do 483 00:23:06.410 --> 00:23:08.390 you say his last name? Yeah, Senge. Senge. So the 484 00:23:08.450 --> 00:23:11.079 fifth discipline, I've used this a lot that I learned, 485 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:12.960 I believe, was from you and Jay when I was 486 00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:16.299 in that meeting about this, the power of, I want 487 00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.519 to get in like the DNA of excellent teams, because 488 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:20.440 this is something you're good at to go along with 489 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:26.049 this is this team coming together doing exactly what you said, 490 00:23:26.390 --> 00:23:28.470 but you can't do it if you're not open minded. 491 00:23:28.549 --> 00:23:31.170 If you're not curious, I'm not willing to ask questions. Again, 492 00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:36.009 you talk about asking good questions. And maybe it's context dependent, 493 00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:38.150 but I am curious to learn from you. What are 494 00:23:38.250 --> 00:23:41.789 some of like the best questions to ask when you're 495 00:23:41.849 --> 00:23:45.210 in a team environment and you're trying to figure things out? 496 00:23:45.250 --> 00:23:48.539 You got complex or issues happening. What are some of 497 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.019 your favorite questions to ask in those situations? 498 00:23:51.220 --> 00:23:53.259 Yeah, that's a great question. 499 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.980 I think we're doing it, dude. 500 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.059 I think what's energizing you right now? Is it a 501 00:23:59.079 --> 00:23:59.839 really good question? 502 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.349 Didn't you ask me that right before we started recording? 503 00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:05.789 I think I did. I only got one question. I 504 00:24:05.829 --> 00:24:06.200 loved it. 505 00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:06.990 That's the one. 506 00:24:07.049 --> 00:24:08.869 Well, I mean, it led to like a 10-minute monologue, 507 00:24:08.890 --> 00:24:09.230 but yeah. 508 00:24:09.250 --> 00:24:09.730 It kind of did. 509 00:24:09.769 --> 00:24:10.230 Yeah, it did. 510 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:10.809 Right, right. 511 00:24:11.089 --> 00:24:12.069 It's great. 512 00:24:12.549 --> 00:24:15.730 And what else is a really good question? I think 513 00:24:15.769 --> 00:24:19.279 people tend to, you know, there's usually like something underneath 514 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:21.859 the surface. Asking the same question again is a really 515 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.920 good question because sometimes the first time doesn't go. What 516 00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:27.650 are you really curious about right now is a good one. 517 00:24:28.210 --> 00:24:30.299 And there's always the double header, which is like, what 518 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:32.240 do you want to do more of? I think that's 519 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.299 a really good question. Because what we're talking about here 520 00:24:35.420 --> 00:24:38.660 is like where your energy is going and where do 521 00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.569 you see it's going really well? What do you want 522 00:24:41.650 --> 00:24:43.730 more of? I want more of this. I want more 523 00:24:43.750 --> 00:24:46.549 of that. And what do you want to do differently 524 00:24:46.849 --> 00:24:49.329 is another good question. Like, what do you want to 525 00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:53.079 do differently? Because I'm not... You're trying to create space here, 526 00:24:53.180 --> 00:24:55.059 which is such a groovy phrase. Like, we're going to 527 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.519 create space right now. But it kind of captures what 528 00:24:57.559 --> 00:24:59.509 it is, which is like, I want to make you 529 00:24:59.609 --> 00:25:02.329 feel like I'm not interrogating you. 530 00:25:02.349 --> 00:25:02.890 Yeah. 531 00:25:03.029 --> 00:25:06.089 That I'm not judging you. If I say like, what 532 00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:08.710 are you doing that you think is going poorly? That's 533 00:25:08.750 --> 00:25:10.849 a crappy question. But what do you want to do 534 00:25:10.869 --> 00:25:13.410 differently is not a bad one. It creates space for 535 00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:15.990 you to go, yeah, here's what I want to do differently. 536 00:25:16.009 --> 00:25:16.910 Yeah. 537 00:25:17.809 --> 00:25:20.190 Those are all good. And then other questions kind of 538 00:25:20.250 --> 00:25:24.630 about– the future i think are really are really liberating 539 00:25:24.690 --> 00:25:27.839 and good and all these questions you know paint a 540 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:30.900 picture for me describe for me five years from now 541 00:25:31.140 --> 00:25:34.720 things go great give me an average

tuesday like what 542 00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:37.019 do you do on that day and you're probably obviously 543 00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:39.700 skiing with your daughters that would be one of my 544 00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:43.150 family's right alongside you but you know something and all 545 00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:45.950 of those what you're i think trying to do is 546 00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:50.130 get people out of kind of their narrow bore attention 547 00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:53.680 yeah and Let go a little bit, surrender a little bit, 548 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:55.980 and open up and point out things that are maybe 549 00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:57.400 in the corner of their eye. Yeah. 550 00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.440 So, Dan, I was recently asked to give two talks 551 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.460 to the same company. One was just the salespeople, and 552 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.640 they asked me to talk about excellence and habits and 553 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.640 routines and rituals of high performance, right? Stuff I learned 554 00:26:09.660 --> 00:26:12.460 about on the show. The second was with the entire company, 555 00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:14.920 and they said, we want you to title it. I 556 00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:17.319 don't usually do this. I'm sure you don't either. Where 557 00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:18.920 they tell you what they want you to talk about. 558 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:19.140 Yeah, yeah. 559 00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:22.259 They say it needs to be titled the DNA of 560 00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:26.839 great teams. And I said, initially I said, no, I 561 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.640 don't know if I have that talk in me or whatever. 562 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:30.069 And then I thought, well, it might be kind of 563 00:26:30.130 --> 00:26:32.690 a cool topic. Yeah. So anyway, so I did that 564 00:26:32.710 --> 00:26:35.990 a couple like a month ago now. And I would 565 00:26:36.009 --> 00:26:38.130 be curious if you were asked to give a talk 566 00:26:38.230 --> 00:26:41.329 titled the DNA of great teams, what are some of the, 567 00:26:41.349 --> 00:26:42.750 I don't, you don't need to give the talk right now, 568 00:26:42.769 --> 00:26:44.670 but what are some of the bullet points that would 569 00:26:44.750 --> 00:26:47.990 immediately start popping up in your mind of, Oh, this is, yeah, 570 00:26:48.009 --> 00:26:49.829 this is great team. It's great. I mean, you're maybe 571 00:26:49.890 --> 00:26:51.869 the foremost guy to ask this question too. 572 00:26:51.910 --> 00:26:53.190 So no pressure. 573 00:26:53.250 --> 00:26:53.470 Huh? 574 00:26:53.589 --> 00:26:54.170 Yeah. Right. 575 00:26:54.369 --> 00:26:59.319 Yeah. So this better be good. Great. I expect perfection. 576 00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:00.539 Oh yeah. 577 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:03.480 No, it's good. You know, part of my mind there 578 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:07.990 goes right to kind of these core things of, of deep, 579 00:27:08.609 --> 00:27:13.210 deep belonging sort of sacrifice, but I'll get a little notch. 580 00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:14.789 So you got the big principles there that I think 581 00:27:14.829 --> 00:27:17.289 are true in every great team, but I'll go like, 582 00:27:17.369 --> 00:27:19.990 since Indiana football is fresh in our minds after seeing 583 00:27:20.029 --> 00:27:23.410 that there is something, you know, if we notch a 584 00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:28.480 little bit deeper, it's like peer leaders who sacrifice for 585 00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:31.359 the team for me is like, is like really big. 586 00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:32.829 seeing that. 587 00:27:32.849 --> 00:27:36.319 You see if Mendoza got smoked, smoked. I mean, he 588 00:27:36.380 --> 00:27:39.859 was battered and he just kept going. That guy, he 589 00:27:39.900 --> 00:27:42.059 was getting hammered and he didn't complain. 590 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:43.680 And interview talks about his teammates. 591 00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:45.920 I mean, yeah. 592 00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.809 How do you respond? And that, and so that leads 593 00:27:48.829 --> 00:27:50.750 to the second one, which is like that moment of, of, 594 00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:55.369 of terrible adversity. What is the instinct? Are we turning 595 00:27:55.450 --> 00:27:57.849 toward each other? Are we turning away from each other? 596 00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:00.730 To me, that is like, Such a litmus test. You 597 00:28:00.750 --> 00:28:02.690 could actually see it last night. You could see the 598 00:28:02.750 --> 00:28:06.210 contrast between the two teams. When things went bad, they 599 00:28:06.450 --> 00:28:12.609 responded very differently, right? That response is just so important 600 00:28:12.650 --> 00:28:15.299 to DNA of great teams. And I actually don't think 601 00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:17.740 the coach is that important in a way. Really? 602 00:28:17.789 --> 00:28:19.269 With Sigvetti? 603 00:28:19.369 --> 00:28:21.430 No, I think he obviously sets the tone and everything. 604 00:28:22.150 --> 00:28:24.509 And it's part of the DNA, but it's not as 605 00:28:24.589 --> 00:28:27.349 big a part as people think. I think great coaches 606 00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:30.170 can create the conditions for the team to emerge. But 607 00:28:30.210 --> 00:28:33.190 the thing with the great teams have, because they sometimes 608 00:28:33.269 --> 00:28:37.009 pit themselves against the coach. They can sometimes see the 609 00:28:37.069 --> 00:28:39.529 coach as we're going to come together against this guy. 610 00:28:39.569 --> 00:28:42.329 The U.S. Olympic hockey team of 1980 would be an 611 00:28:42.369 --> 00:28:45.400 example of that. So I would put that on there. 612 00:28:45.500 --> 00:28:49.369 And I would also put a shout out to this 613 00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:53.710 curiosity is at the very, very, very core of it 614 00:28:53.730 --> 00:28:58.589 because that keeps you going. And it's really hard to 615 00:29:00.170 --> 00:29:03.990 consistently succeed. And I think

the teams that I've seen 616 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:07.309 do that. are ones that do not get gassed up 617 00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:10.789 on their own stuff, do not drink their own Kool-Aid, 618 00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:13.509 do not believe in their success, actually, in a way. 619 00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:17.470 It's not skeptical exactly, but they're not buying into it 620 00:29:17.589 --> 00:29:18.930 in a like, oh, now I'm at the top of 621 00:29:18.950 --> 00:29:21.710 the mountain, everything's fine. They get curious about that next mountain, 622 00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:23.579 and they get curious about each other, and they get 623 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.859 curious about the situation, and they're willing to let go 624 00:29:26.900 --> 00:29:29.960 of stuff that didn't work. OKC's really good at this, 625 00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:34.980 the basketball team. I mean, they are incredible. incredibly intentional 626 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.690 about how they evolve and how they lead. And they 627 00:29:37.690 --> 00:29:39.809 were here last year and I had a a coffee 628 00:29:39.869 --> 00:29:42.769 with with their coach and their shooting coach Chip Englund 629 00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:45.690 who's a brilliant brilliant shooting coach and Mark Dageno and 630 00:29:46.670 --> 00:29:47.880 they told me something that was kind of cool that 631 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:51.640 I hadn't appreciated when someone gets traded in pro sports 632 00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:53.680 it's like a death like this is the locker room 633 00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:56.460 everybody knows each other trade deadlines come in somebody got 634 00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.740 traded and then their locker's empty it's like a gravestone 635 00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.069 And what the coach at OKC does is on the 636 00:30:03.109 --> 00:30:05.329 day after somebody gets traded, he spends a minute of 637 00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:09.819 practice expressing his appreciation for that person who's gone. It 638 00:30:10.019 --> 00:30:15.920 takes like 10 seconds, 30 seconds, whatever. But how simple 639 00:30:15.980 --> 00:30:21.009 and human is that? How powerful is that? And it really, 640 00:30:21.029 --> 00:30:23.269 I think what I'm seeing in these places, it's the 641 00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:24.950 same thing that I see in these flourishing groups that 642 00:30:24.970 --> 00:30:28.380 I wrote about. The word is community. Like the thing 643 00:30:28.460 --> 00:30:32.140 that makes people flourish is community. It's not a bunch 644 00:30:32.180 --> 00:30:38.039 of individuals that are individualing together. It's like, can they connect? 645 00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:41.279 Can they, I mean, the way that some people would 646 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.519 say it would be like, love your neighbor. Are they 647 00:30:43.740 --> 00:30:46.680 loving their neighbor and supporting their neighbor? And that is, 648 00:30:47.019 --> 00:30:48.619 that's just magical when that does happen. 649 00:30:48.900

--> 00:30:51.880 One of the groups that was blowing away reading about 650 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:57.180 those Chilean miners. Oh yeah. Man, I didn't know. and 651 00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:00.339 understand the full story until reading about it in your book. 652 00:31:00.869 --> 00:31:04.829 Tell me about how they somehow, after what seems like 653 00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:06.990 one of the worst things that could ever happen to you, 654 00:31:07.990 --> 00:31:13.250 flourished together and survived, all of them together. Incredible. 655 00:31:13.349 --> 00:31:14.769 I mean, yeah, if you had to trade places with 656 00:31:14.829 --> 00:31:16.539 anybody in the history of the world, these guys would 657 00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:19.700 not be in the top list. They're a couple thousand 658 00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:22.019 feet below the surface. Happened in 2010, most of us 659 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:25.279 remember it, I think. Chilean San Jose mine caves in. 660 00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.599 There's 100 million tons of rock on top of them. 661 00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:32.829 They're in a room called a refugio. And there's probably 662 00:31:32.890 --> 00:31:35.470 no escape. They're probably thinking this is it. And there's 663 00:31:35.490 --> 00:31:40.329 a little cabinet with some tuna fish cookies, spoiled milk. 664 00:31:40.809 --> 00:31:44.069 Like not much, not much food. 33 people down there. 665 00:31:44.109 --> 00:31:46.630 And for the first couple hours, it went as bad 666 00:31:46.670 --> 00:31:49.009 as it could have gone. Like people are eating the food. 667 00:31:49.049 --> 00:31:51.980 People are running around scrambling, yelling at each other. And 668 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.279 then they sort of tire out, they circle up. And 669 00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:57.700 it's funny. And, you know, we all know that they survived. 670 00:31:57.740 --> 00:31:59.759 We all know that they ended up kind of creating 671 00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:02.500 a little civilization down there. And the original thought when 672 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:04.359 they came out was like, oh, they had great leaders. 673 00:32:04.460 --> 00:32:06.589 They had like these two guys that seemed to be leaders. 674 00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:08.410 And those leaders had a plan and they had a 675 00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:10.970 strategy and they did it. And they were like steering 676 00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:13.690 the ship. And it turns out that wasn't the case. 677 00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:16.049 What happened was that they sort of circled up and 678 00:32:16.089 --> 00:32:18.690 they stopped and they kind of paused. They just stopped. 679 00:32:19.509 --> 00:32:21.869 And they said, look, we're in the shit. This is it. 680 00:32:22.230 --> 00:32:23.890 We're not getting out of here. And then the boss 681 00:32:23.930 --> 00:32:26.099 stepped forward. His boss, everyone was kind of afraid of him. 682 00:32:26.109 --> 00:32:28.450 He wore a white helmet. His name was Luis Urzúa. 683 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:30.730 And he took off his white helmet and he said, 684 00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:33.579 there are no bosses and no employees. There's no bosses 685 00:32:33.619 --> 00:32:37.220 and no employees. We're all one here. And then there's 686 00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:39.200 another pause and somebody else pointed out that there were 687 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:41.839 33 of them, which is the same age Christ was 688 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:44.240 when he died. And so they saw that as being, 689 00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:46.720 they're mostly Catholic, saw that as being a symbolic. And 690 00:32:47.259 --> 00:32:50.440 From those pauses, like they weren't actually trying to do anything. 691 00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.420 But what happened in those moments is their attention shifted 692 00:32:53.539 --> 00:32:58.599 from this terror and this task of survival to this 693 00:32:58.819 --> 00:33:01.960 larger connection that they had, this relationship they had with 694 00:33:02.019 --> 00:33:05.380 each other and with this moment. And they started to 695 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:07.950 kind of self-organize at that time. Like just let's build 696 00:33:07.990 --> 00:33:10.710 a little sleeping area. Let's get the food sorted. Let's 697 00:33:10.750 --> 00:33:14.049 figure out how much lamp battery power we have. And 698 00:33:14.589 --> 00:33:18.250 they started this set of rituals, right? And they almost 699 00:33:18.309 --> 00:33:21.509 like each meal, they would get out a certain flake 700 00:33:21.549 --> 00:33:23.450 of tuna and they would all share it and eat 701 00:33:23.470 --> 00:33:26.470 it at the same time. They built small games out 702 00:33:26.490 --> 00:33:29.250 of little reflectors and they would play these games with 703 00:33:29.269 --> 00:33:32.390 their limited light. And it didn't, like it didn't, it 704 00:33:32.450 --> 00:33:35.089 wasn't easy. And it was, there was an incredible amount 705 00:33:35.109 --> 00:33:38.130 of shared suffering down there, but it was shared. And 706 00:33:38.509 --> 00:33:40.769 when they finally got contact with the surface, one of 707 00:33:40.789 --> 00:33:42.539 the things that they did that kind of blew everybody 708 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:45.759 away was they, they sung the Chilean national anthem together. So, 709 00:33:46.190 --> 00:33:50.279 They're down there, no food, very little supplies, dark, infection, 710 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.240 it's super hot. And they end up kind of creating 711 00:33:54.259 --> 00:34:00.500 this little model civilization that functioned incredibly well for the 712 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:02.720 situation that they were in. And what let them do 713 00:34:02.779 --> 00:34:07.640 that was not information, it wasn't analysis, it was letting go. 714 00:34:07.660 --> 00:34:12.030 It was having this moment of meaning, of making meaning 715 00:34:12.110 --> 00:34:15.349 and creating presence I saw that pattern in all the 716 00:34:15.389 --> 00:34:17.889

places that I visited. They were able to create meaning 717 00:34:17.909 --> 00:34:19.750 because you can have all the information, you can have 718 00:34:19.769 --> 00:34:22.250 all the success, you can have all the productivity, but 719 00:34:22.289 --> 00:34:24.530 if you don't have the ability to like stop and 720 00:34:24.610 --> 00:34:29.289 create relationships and create community, all that stuff is, we 721 00:34:29.329 --> 00:34:33.929 say it's meaningless because it's meaningless. And community is how 722 00:34:33.969 --> 00:34:35.670 we do that. And so they were just a beautiful 723 00:34:35.710 --> 00:34:37.730 example of like, all right, they don't have anything. How 724 00:34:37.750 --> 00:34:40.909 did they create community? Well, they did it by stopping 725 00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:45.219 and looking to something bigger than themselves. stopping and looking. 726 00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:47.820 And that moment of stopping and looking is something that 727 00:34:47.860 --> 00:34:50.579 I saw in all the groups that I visited. They 728 00:34:50.619 --> 00:34:53.489 had the ability in all the busyness of this world 729 00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:56.849 to be like, wait a minute, stop. What are we 730 00:34:56.889 --> 00:35:01.050 really about? What matters here? What is our community? Why 731 00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:03.210 are we here? What is bigger than us that we're 732 00:35:03.269 --> 00:35:07.030 connected to right now? And they grounded themselves in those 733 00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:10.239 moments over and over and over again, And that's what 734 00:35:10.460 --> 00:35:13.380 creates growth and that's what creates connection. That's what creates community. 735 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:18.679 So that's an extreme story. What about for the person 736 00:35:18.699 --> 00:35:22.210 who has a pretty good life and they're a mid-level 737 00:35:22.409 --> 00:35:26.449 VP-ish leader at a Fortune 100 company trying to hit 738 00:35:26.570 --> 00:35:30.789 an aggressive goal, hire well, fire when needed, you know? Yeah. 739 00:35:31.590 --> 00:35:34.289 Different than being stuck way down there. 740 00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:35.789 With 30, 30 others. Sometimes, yeah. 741 00:35:35.809 --> 00:35:39.670 Well, yeah. What would you take from that experience and 742 00:35:39.769 --> 00:35:43.230 all of these stories of flourishing groups and people that 743 00:35:43.250 --> 00:35:45.650 could help the person who doesn't have it terrible? In fact, 744 00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:48.389 they have it pretty good. Maybe not excellent or great, 745 00:35:48.429 --> 00:35:52.289 but they're doing fine. What could they learn from those guys, 746 00:35:52.369 --> 00:35:55.809 the Chilean miners, to implement into either their place of 747 00:35:55.869 --> 00:35:59.710 work or their life at home to flourish, to do really, 748 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:03.050 really well from a team perspective, from a family perspective, 749 00:36:03.139 --> 00:36:04.090 and as individuals?

750 00:36:04.260 --> 00:36:06.320 Yeah. I think the thing though, there's a lot of 751 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.820 lessons to learn. And one of them is getting smart. 752 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:10.860 Smarts will only get you so far. 753 00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:11.519 Yeah. 754 00:36:11.539 --> 00:36:15.179 It's kind of one big one. To really have this 755 00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:17.940 sense of fulfillment. We only flourish. I think there's a 756 00:36:18.019 --> 00:36:21.860 myth in our culture right now that individuals can flourish. 757 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.280 Like you think of, oh, that person, you see them 758 00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:28.889 as a single person, as an individual, and you hear 759 00:36:28.909 --> 00:36:31.909 about their success. And the appearance, by all appearances, like 760 00:36:31.949 --> 00:36:36.760 that individual is flourishing. Underneath them, invisibly, they're part of 761 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.219 a larger community. Flourishing is only part. We only become 762 00:36:40.260 --> 00:36:46.590 our best through other people. So we have this pronoun problem, basically. I, me, 763 00:36:46.909 --> 00:36:51.050 when actually it's we and us, right? Self-improvement. We're talking 764 00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:55.369 about self-improvement. Actually, that's not as powerful as shared improvement, right? 765 00:36:55.909 --> 00:37:02.460 So this idea that we're actually pre-wired to flourish through community, pre-wired. 766 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:04.880 And one way to access that, I think, is to 767 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:08.260 think about times in your life, moments in your life 768 00:37:08.380 --> 00:37:12.320 when you have felt the most alive, the most connected, 769 00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.530 the most growing, that have challenged you and that have 770 00:37:15.630 --> 00:37:18.469 made you who you are. I'm going to say those 771 00:37:18.550 --> 00:37:21.329 moments didn't happen when you were by yourself in a sauna, 772 00:37:21.610 --> 00:37:25.449 when you were training alone. Those were relationships. Those were 773 00:37:25.489 --> 00:37:28.139 moments when you're in community. Those are moments when community 774 00:37:28.489 --> 00:37:30.809 was lighting you up in some new way and challenging 775 00:37:30.829 --> 00:37:32.969 you to grow and creating conditions where you could grow. 776 00:37:33.869 --> 00:37:35.949 So the challenge to somebody in a Fortune 100 as 777 00:37:35.989 --> 00:37:40.219 a mid-level is who's your community? How are you nurturing it? 778 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:43.639 Life looks like a game every day. Guess what? Sorry, 779 00:37:43.699 --> 00:37:44.280 it's not a game. 780 00:37:44.619 --> 00:37:45.260 It's a garden. 781 00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:49.900 And long-term, growing the garden of your career is going 782 00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:52.920 to benefit you. It's in your self-interest way more than 783 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:55.840 playing the game of your career. Growing the

garden of 784 00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:57.980 your career. So the question to ask every day is like, 785 00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:01.250 Who's in my garden? Who can I learn from? What 786 00:38:01.309 --> 00:38:04.130 relationship do I need to feed and nurture? And who 787 00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:07.860 can I feed? Who can I help? We had Craig 788 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.019 Council in to interview for the Guardian's manager position a 789 00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:15.119 few years ago. And somebody asked him what he did 790 00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:18.139 when he was feeling down. Like hard job, lonely job, 791 00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:21.210 like a lot of jobs. Talk about sort of the 792 00:38:21.250 --> 00:38:24.210 loneliness of the manager. His answer was, I go find 793 00:38:24.250 --> 00:38:27.230 somebody I can help. Go find a rookie I can help. 794 00:38:27.289 --> 00:38:30.139 Go find a clubhouse person I can help. That's my cure. 795 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.659 It's like that really stayed with me because it's his problem, right? 796 00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.099 You'd think he'd want to sort of self-gratify and I 797 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:40.659 need to fix myself. It's like, no, it's community comes 798 00:38:40.699 --> 00:38:44.210 down to like serve thy neighbor. It comes down to 799 00:38:44.269 --> 00:38:47.710 helping other people. And that instinct, which is kind of 800 00:38:47.750 --> 00:38:49.710 the opposite of what we really want to do in 801 00:38:49.750 --> 00:38:52.050 some ways, right? It's hard to do that. It's freaking 802 00:38:52.070 --> 00:38:54.340 hard to get out of your own head. But that 803 00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:56.519 instinct to flip it and say, wait, who can I 804 00:38:56.579 --> 00:39:00.920 go help is a really powerful question. Talk about powerful questions. 805 00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:03.880 It's like when Jeff asked you to go rock climbing. 806 00:39:04.300 --> 00:39:04.599 Oh, yeah. 807 00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:07.949 It's kind of a yellow door, isn't it? Because initially, 808 00:39:07.969 --> 00:39:11.030 from what I read at least, you're thinking, I don't 809 00:39:11.050 --> 00:39:11.869 think I want to do that. 810 00:39:11.889 --> 00:39:12.869 No, no. 811 00:39:13.050 --> 00:39:16.469 But now, since you said yes to that invitation, how 812 00:39:16.550 --> 00:39:17.590 has it changed your life? 813 00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:21.429 Yeah, no, it's given me this whole new community, really. 814 00:39:21.489 --> 00:39:21.690 Yeah? 815 00:39:21.809 --> 00:39:24.219 Really, you know, and just– Yeah, I didn't want to 816 00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:26.559 go indoor rock climbing. That is a stupid sport. 817 00:39:26.619 --> 00:39:27.960 Like, let's be frank. 818 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.900 You put on these stupid shoes. And you go some 819 00:39:30.980 --> 00:39:34.360 indoor thing with painful grips and chalk and all these 820 00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:36.900 bags and this stupid harness that I put on backwards 821 00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.530 when I first put it on. And you feel like 822 00:39:40.719 --> 00:39:45.710 an idiot. But my friend, he was looking to create 823 00:39:45.769 --> 00:39:48.130 some new friends and friendships. He recently went through some 824 00:39:48.190 --> 00:39:50.090 changes in his personal life and I wanted to show 825 00:39:50.170 --> 00:39:53.409 up for him, right? And so I ended up getting 826 00:39:53.449 --> 00:39:55.969 involved in this. And now five, six years later, here 827 00:39:56.010 --> 00:39:59.300 we are doing trips and playing music and going skiing. 828 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:01.179 It's this whole new group, a whole new community of friends. 829 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.710 So that yellow door and reaching out, I mean, through 830 00:40:04.750 --> 00:40:06.110 that yellow door is really what. 831 00:40:06.150 --> 00:40:08.389 Made it work. Has that changed for you? Because I'm 832 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:11.090 with you. There are days you probably have introverted tendencies 833 00:40:11.170 --> 00:40:13.230 as a writer. I definitely do. Especially if you go 834 00:40:13.250 --> 00:40:15.710 on stage, you need to recharge and it's usually by yourself. 835 00:40:15.789 --> 00:40:19.360 But that Craig Council, which I'm going to borrow forever 836 00:40:19.380 --> 00:40:22.130 now too, of, you know what? When I'm feeling down 837 00:40:22.170 --> 00:40:24.659 or when something happens, like let's say your daughter gets 838 00:40:24.739 --> 00:40:27.320 temporarily hurt on the soccer field, like it's the worst 839 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.340 feeling in the world. What makes that better? Having a 840 00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:32.960 conversation with you, trying to help somebody else, trying to 841 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.480 do something I think is going to make a positive 842 00:40:34.539 --> 00:40:38.289 dent in the world, help someone one-on-one. It seems obvious, 843 00:40:38.349 --> 00:40:42.170 but it's almost harder now than ever because we have devices, 844 00:40:42.269 --> 00:40:45.369 these incredible computers that we all carry in our pockets. 845 00:40:45.469 --> 00:40:46.989 And if we can take it out and look at 846 00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:51.099 it forever and always have an unlimited supply of things 847 00:40:51.139 --> 00:40:52.780 to look at, but what are you doing when you're 848 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:54.840 doing that? You're completely by yourself. 849 00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:55.099 Yes. 850 00:40:55.579 --> 00:40:58.780 In fact, it's worse because you might be watching videos 851 00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:01.179 or pictures of people who are together and you're not. 852 00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:01.530 I know. 853 00:41:01.889 --> 00:41:03.269 You know what I mean? So how does that play 854 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:04.949 a role into this community and flourishing? 855 00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:07.369 Oh my God. I mean, I sort of think of 856 00:41:07.409 --> 00:41:09.769 these places I visited as

being the cure for this 857 00:41:09.849 --> 00:41:13.369 kind of AI dystopia that we're moving toward. I mean, 858 00:41:13.409 --> 00:41:16.210 we're clearly moving toward that. And there's a lot of 859 00:41:16.250 --> 00:41:19.250 structures in our society that really want to divide our 860 00:41:19.289 --> 00:41:22.690 attention and keep us individualized and keep us apart from 861 00:41:22.769 --> 00:41:26.130 community or provide a fake artificial friend for us to 862 00:41:26.170 --> 00:41:30.110 talk to, which is absolutely hilarious and dark and wrong. 863 00:41:30.730 --> 00:41:34.750 But the idea that The cure is we're pre-wired for 864 00:41:34.789 --> 00:41:38.230 this stuff. There are these huge meta studies that show, 865 00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:40.550 are you happier when you get a gift or give 866 00:41:40.590 --> 00:41:42.929 a gift? Guess what? You're happier when you give one. 867 00:41:44.309 --> 00:41:47.150 We all know that already. We're increasingly learning. It feels 868 00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:53.250 like there is this sort of humanist revival. Maybe I'm 869 00:41:53.710 --> 00:41:57.269 gassed up on my own research, but in visiting these places, 870 00:41:57.309 --> 00:41:59.769 these communities that have kind of come back to life, 871 00:42:00.309 --> 00:42:05.380 these businesses- Like Zingerman's Deli, for example, that have absolutely 872 00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:10.280 thrived by not scaling. We think of scaling as being this, oh, 873 00:42:10.300 --> 00:42:12.360 that's good to do. Oh, always good to do. They 874 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.360 had an offer. This is this little deli in Ann 875 00:42:14.420 --> 00:42:18.159 Arbor that I write about. They were very successful. Just 876 00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.219 the best Reuben you've ever had. And a lot of 877 00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:23.159 your listeners may have even been there. It's very famous. 878 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:26.019 It started in 1982. They've grown and grown and grown. 879 00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:28.559 At one point, Walt Disney came up to them. Part 880 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:30.340 of their values is to be in Ann Arbor. That's 881 00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:32.280 where they are. That's where they do their business. Walt 882 00:42:32.300 --> 00:42:34.480 Disney came up to them with a $ 50 million offer 883 00:42:34.500 --> 00:42:36.360 to say, we want you in our park. You guys 884 00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:38.460 are a great deli. We want you in our park. 885 00:42:38.500 --> 00:42:41.179 For most businesses, that's a no-brainer. We're going to do it. 886 00:42:41.860 --> 00:42:44.309 For Zingerman's, it took 20 minutes. They're like, nope, we're 887 00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:46.130 not interested. If you ever come to Ann Arbor, if 888 00:42:46.150 --> 00:42:47.969 you ever have a Walt Disney World in Ann Arbor, 889 00:42:48.030 --> 00:42:50.380 we will be in it. But Short of that, this 890 00:42:50.460 --> 00:42:52.119 is where we get our meaning. This is where we 891 00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:54.960 get our purpose. This is the ground in which we 892 00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:58.699 grow our roots. And they have got this community of 893 00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:02.679 businesses there. There's a creamery. There's a travel business. There's 894 00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:06.690 a wedding planning business. There's a Korean barbecue. There's all 895 00:43:06.730 --> 00:43:10.150 these connected business, this family of businesses that is deep 896 00:43:10.230 --> 00:43:12.329 in Ann Arbor and has all kinds of deep connections 897 00:43:12.369 --> 00:43:15.670 with that community. So not to say every business has 898 00:43:15.710 --> 00:43:21.139 to follow that model, but there are models. for creating 899 00:43:21.159 --> 00:43:24.440 those kinds of relationships that can actually lead to a 900 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:28.840 much deeper sense of thriving than simply the present model 901 00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:30.840 we're given, where it's like, go, go, go, go, go, 902 00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:32.889 and be narrow in scale. 903 00:43:33.570 --> 00:43:36.170 I like the question, too. James Clear has said this. 904 00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:37.730 I had dinner with him recently, and he said, what 905 00:43:37.750 --> 00:43:39.829 are you optimizing for? He asks that all the time. 906 00:43:39.869 --> 00:43:42.690 And Corey and I were talking about this before you 907 00:43:42.730 --> 00:43:45.670 got here, and I said, I'm optimizing for this. 908 00:43:46.190 --> 00:43:46.489 Oh, yeah. 909 00:43:46.670 --> 00:43:51.679 For amazing things. experiences with great, great high character people 910 00:43:51.739 --> 00:43:54.389 who've put a positive dent in the world and being 911 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:57.670 with them. We had this scheduled on Zoom. I remember 912 00:43:57.949 --> 00:43:59.889 when I emailed the day before, or maybe it was 913 00:43:59.929 --> 00:44:02.389 the day of, you and your team and said, wait 914 00:44:02.429 --> 00:44:04.730 a second, Dan might be in Cleveland. I'm just going 915 00:44:04.750 --> 00:44:06.489 to go up there and see him. Or Clark Lee's 916 00:44:06.510 --> 00:44:08.610 down in Nashville. I'm going to go see him. Or 917 00:44:08.650 --> 00:44:11.730 Will Godera's down there too. And to me, this is 918 00:44:11.789 --> 00:44:14.739 the community building that is hard to do. You can 919 00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:16.599 do it a little bit on Zoom. You can still 920 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:19.449 feel some of it. But there's nothing like meeting you 921 00:44:19.469 --> 00:44:21.869 down in the lobby, hanging out for a little bit, talking. 922 00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:24.639 I think that brings me so much joy. 923 00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:24.739 Yeah. 924 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:29.500 Like this flourishing is being with people, being together, connecting, 925 00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:33.860 developing friendships and relationships. That's what I'm optimizing for. And 926 00:44:33.900 -->

00:44:35.579 you hope you know you got to make money, right? 927 00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:36.920 I got a family. We all have to do that. 928 00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.909 But that's what I feel like. Is there anything better 929 00:44:39.949 --> 00:44:43.389 than optimizing for those big relationships that can be transformative 930 00:44:43.429 --> 00:44:45.429 over the course of your life? To me, that's been 931 00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:47.590 the number one thing that I'm shooting for. I love it. 932 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:48.110 I love it. 933 00:44:48.139 --> 00:44:50.820 It's so good. And optimizing is kind of a good 934 00:44:50.860 --> 00:44:53.179 word because it kind of implies, too, that you have 935 00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:55.019 to leave some space. It's imperfect. 936 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:57.119 Right. Right. It's definitely not efficient. 937 00:44:57.139 --> 00:44:59.889 I'm aiming for it. Yeah. It's not efficient. Like you had, 938 00:44:59.909 --> 00:45:01.010 you had a better way to spend, you had a 939 00:45:01.030 --> 00:45:03.389 more efficient way to spend your morning. Sure. Driving up here. 940 00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:04.690 And I had, I probably do too. 941 00:45:04.730 --> 00:45:04.949 Sure. 942 00:45:05.429 --> 00:45:07.489 That's not where the, you know, the value is not 943 00:45:07.590 --> 00:45:11.130 evenly distributed here. Like there's, you're aiming. And that's the 944 00:45:11.150 --> 00:45:13.590 thing that the flourishing groups have. They're kind of, it's 945 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.480 about moments. It's not measurable in conventional ways. Right. It's 946 00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:19.719 measurable in terms of value or in terms of joy 947 00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:23.420 or in terms of feeling connected or in terms of relationship. 948 00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:27.570 And like, relationship is so mysterious. All these studies show 949 00:45:27.630 --> 00:45:30.849 us it's the most important thing to a life, relationships, right? 950 00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:32.989 The Harvard study of longevity that we've all read about, 951 00:45:33.030 --> 00:45:36.909 Harvard study of development, you know, what is it? It's relationships, 952 00:45:37.030 --> 00:45:40.110 full stop. Like that's it. That distinguishes health and happiness 953 00:45:40.170 --> 00:45:45.630 more than nutrition, more than exercise, more than IQ, more 954 00:45:45.670 --> 00:45:50.170 than genes, like it's relationships. And yet there's not a 955 00:45:50.190 --> 00:45:53.909 playbook for it. Like What is the playbook for relationships? 956 00:45:54.030 --> 00:45:57.980 It involves curiosity. It involves risk. It involves looking at 957 00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:59.880 people who are good at it and learning from them. 958 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.099 It involves community. You could probably make a case that 959 00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:05.900 communities are where we learn how to play that sport. 960 00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:08.800 And that's why they're so

important. And that's why isolation 961 00:46:08.860 --> 00:46:15.670 is so detrimental. Communities teach us how to be in relationship. 962 00:46:16.210 --> 00:46:18.809 And that's the cool part of it. And as dystopian 963 00:46:18.829 --> 00:46:21.880 as the world can feel sometimes, that's just Part of 964 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:25.639 us were pre-wired for community when some of these places 965 00:46:25.659 --> 00:46:28.280 that I visited, they were inspiring because they were kind 966 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:30.800 of able to flip the switch. It wasn't like a 967 00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.380 lot of work to get people to click on that way. 968 00:46:33.500 --> 00:46:36.139 And when you walked into the guardian's office and people 969 00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:39.880 start asking questions, it clicks on. Like people have that 970 00:46:40.039 --> 00:46:42.599 quality in them. It's not predetermined that we're going to 971 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.610 be in this like tech dystopia forever. It's like there 972 00:46:45.619 --> 00:46:49.650 really is a possibility for kind of a community revival. 973 00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:51.989 Well, one of your- The things I love about your 974 00:46:52.150 --> 00:46:56.820 style of research is you can learn a ton by 975 00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:02.099 using AI tools, by reading books online. You just go there, though. 976 00:47:02.659 --> 00:47:05.719 You go there. You kind of embed yourself with these 977 00:47:06.250 --> 00:47:09.289 groups of people. You've done it for multiple books now. 978 00:47:10.090 --> 00:47:12.389 I'd just love to hear your decision-making of, okay, I 979 00:47:12.409 --> 00:47:14.949 should go see those people, or I should go there. What, 980 00:47:14.969 --> 00:47:17.510 the Navy SEALs? You know, Pixar. Can you just walk 981 00:47:17.550 --> 00:47:20.230 me through the way you think about, okay, I should 982 00:47:20.250 --> 00:47:22.550 go study them or study that. I'm going to go there. 983 00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:24.289 And I've got to imagine there are times when you 984 00:47:24.309 --> 00:47:25.969 go study somebody and— Whoops. 985 00:47:26.130 --> 00:47:26.329 Yeah. 986 00:47:26.630 --> 00:47:27.869 It's not a waste of time, right? It's part of 987 00:47:27.909 --> 00:47:29.989 the deal. But I am curious how you think about that. 988 00:47:30.010 --> 00:47:32.360 Totally. No, I used to think I had to go 989 00:47:32.420 --> 00:47:34.860 someplace where I already knew the answers, right? I need to, 990 00:47:34.900 --> 00:47:36.920 I would go like, oh, it's definitely there. It's definitely, 991 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:39.760 I know as I got older and as I made mistakes, 992 00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:43.130 I end up going to places that are most mysterious. 993 00:47:43.570 --> 00:47:46.889 Like it's the mystery that draws me. For example, for 994 00:47:46.909 --> 00:47:50.429 the talent code, somebody had told me about a Russian 995 00:47:50.469 --> 00:47:53.670 tennis club in Moscow called Spartak that had produced more 996 00:47:53.739 --> 00:47:56.219 top 20 women players than the entire United States over 997 00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.389 a span of time. And I called a filmmaker who 998 00:47:59.409 --> 00:48:01.239 had been there, and he just made a sound over 999 00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:04.440 the phone. He was just like, dude, you won't believe 1000 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.139 this place. And right at that moment, I'm like, I'm going. 1001 00:48:08.219 --> 00:48:08.639 I'm going. 1002 00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:10.119 There's no question. 1003 00:48:10.500 --> 00:48:12.500 My curiosity gets the best of me. And it's like, 1004 00:48:13.099 --> 00:48:18.659 I'm looking for places that are credibly unique. They stand out. 1005 00:48:18.969 --> 00:48:21.369 For some reason, and often it's a performance difference. Like, 1006 00:48:21.489 --> 00:48:25.230 what is going on? Zingerman's Deli. I've heard about that 1007 00:48:25.269 --> 00:48:28.340 a lot, but not every deli grows into a $ 90 1008 00:48:28.019 --> 00:48:31.860 million community of businesses. What is going on there? And 1009 00:48:31.889 --> 00:48:34.469 then you have your first, your probe to go back 1010 00:48:34.530 --> 00:48:38.050 to our earlier idea, like it's complex. So you have 1011 00:48:38.090 --> 00:48:40.250 a call, you have a couple of interactions. If that 1012 00:48:40.590 --> 00:48:43.449 is still resonating for you, it's like a guitar string, right? 1013 00:48:43.769 --> 00:48:45.449 Can you still hear it? Is that mystery still there? 1014 00:48:46.150 --> 00:48:49.329 And then you go. And for the Spartak thing, it 1015 00:48:49.389 --> 00:48:51.010 was not an easy thing to fly to Russia. And 1016 00:48:51.050 --> 00:48:52.670 it was not an easy thing to sort of get 1017 00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:55.869 a translator and get there and, you know, it was 1018 00:48:56.010 --> 00:48:58.469 dead of winter and it was in a very strange place. 1019 00:48:58.489 --> 00:49:00.429 It was the middle of this giant park and it 1020 00:49:00.449 --> 00:49:03.159 was an old, old kind of Quonset hut building with 1021 00:49:03.260 --> 00:49:06.420 a little narrow door. And you just kind of keep 1022 00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:08.579 exploring and you keep going in and there's an old 1023 00:49:08.619 --> 00:49:11.380 lady in there moving in slow motion, teaching kids how 1024 00:49:11.420 --> 00:49:13.360 to hit. And she had been teaching there for 50 1025 00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.800 years and you start asking questions and, you give enough 1026 00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:21.420 time to where people will open up a little bit. 1027 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.619 But what I've found is that when people come up 1028 00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:26.579 to you and say, hey, I find what you do 1029 00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:30.099 kind of fascinating. Can you tell me about that? Most 1030 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.170 people are thrilled to share that. Now, there are some 1031

00:49:36.210 --> 00:49:40.349 where they're not. The San Antonio Spurs famously– closed culture. 1032 00:49:41.369 --> 00:49:43.309 They don't like people who write about them because they're 1033 00:49:43.329 --> 00:49:44.860 a great culture. And part of what makes a great 1034 00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:46.840 culture is they don't brag and they don't sort of 1035 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:51.000 spotlight their own greatness. So in approaching them, I ended 1036 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.639 up having to take sort of a side door and 1037 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:59.380 appeal to their curiosity about learning. R.C. Buford, the GM, 1038 00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.739 he's like one of the most curious people I've ever met. 1039 00:50:02.380 --> 00:50:04.019 I sort of explained what I was doing and that 1040 00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.500 kind of opened a door because he wants to learn 1041 00:50:06.539 --> 00:50:08.739 about the seals. He wants to learn about the guardians. 1042 00:50:08.780 --> 00:50:11.250 He wants to learn about the U S Olympic hockey 1043 00:50:11.269 --> 00:50:15.010 team of 1980. Like, so I end up sort of 1044 00:50:15.070 --> 00:50:17.650 serving as a bridge a little bit so that those 1045 00:50:17.829 --> 00:50:18.909 conversations can happen. 1046 00:50:18.969 --> 00:50:19.969 It's a back and forth. Yeah. 1047 00:50:20.050 --> 00:50:22.800 And then it sort of connects back to what we 1048 00:50:22.820 --> 00:50:24.659 were talking about at the very beginning, which is like, 1049 00:50:24.699 --> 00:50:26.719 you get up to the top of these super top 1050 00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:30.019 learning organizations and you find the most curious people you've 1051 00:50:30.059 --> 00:50:30.380 ever met. 1052 00:50:31.059 --> 00:50:31.260 R.C. 1053 00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.760 Buford picked me up in his car at the airport. 1054 00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:37.260 And I didn't stay at his house, but I spent 1055 00:50:37.300 --> 00:50:41.440 vast amounts of like three days with him. And I 1056 00:50:41.480 --> 00:50:43.380 think I asked him like five questions the whole time. 1057 00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:47.730 And he asked me like 5,000 questions. Really? I was 1058 00:50:47.809 --> 00:50:49.670 wrung out when I left. I was like, I don't 1059 00:50:49.710 --> 00:50:52.579 think I have anything else to talk about. And it 1060 00:50:52.619 --> 00:50:55.079 ended up being a great, a wonderful experience. I got to, 1061 00:50:55.179 --> 00:50:58.000 you know, watch pop work and meet Chip England and 1062 00:50:58.039 --> 00:50:59.699 meet all those other people. So it was a great 1063 00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:03.010 kind of embedding, but it really reinforced to me what's 1064 00:51:03.070 --> 00:51:06.210 driving those places is that they do not think they 1065 00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:10.010 have it figured out. And they are delighted to find 1066 00:51:10.030 --> 00:51:13.010 where they make mistakes. And they are super curious about 1067 00:51:13.070 --> 00:51:15.900 other people that do it well. And it's, it's fun 1068 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:16.440 to be around them. 1069 00:51:16.900 --> 00:51:20.199 Man, that's, that is absolutely a commonality of the elite, 1070 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:22.610 the best of the best. I mean, Jay's this way 1071 00:51:22.670 --> 00:51:25.739 as well with the guardians and the seals that this 1072 00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:30.280 just inherent curiosity is so inspiring, man. I think that's it. 1073 00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:31.579 I know we got to go soon, but one more 1074 00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:35.860 question that I'm curious about you personally. So I learned 1075 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:38.280 this question called the champagne question from my friend, Jason Gaynard. 1076 00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:41.000 I've asked it a million times since then. It's exactly 1077 00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:41.760 a year from now. 1078 00:51:42.139 --> 00:51:42.380 Okay. 1079 00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:46.960 And you and I are popping bottles. We're celebrating. 1080 00:51:47.179 --> 00:51:47.340 Yeah. 1081 00:51:47.929 --> 00:51:48.739 What are we celebrating? 1082 00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:52.880 Ooh, that's really good. That's really good. We just arrived 1083 00:51:52.900 --> 00:51:55.280 at the ski resort with our nine combined girls. 1084 00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:56.019 Let's go. 1085 00:51:56.500 --> 00:51:56.639 What? 1086 00:51:56.659 --> 00:51:57.440 You've got five? 1087 00:51:57.480 --> 00:51:59.679 I've got four? We have nine girls. 1088 00:51:59.719 --> 00:52:01.389 Just a whole football team of girls. 1089 00:52:01.409 --> 00:52:04.309 We just got there, right? We just got there. Okay. 1090 00:52:04.349 --> 00:52:07.050 And we're about to spend like four days. 1091 00:52:07.070 --> 00:52:08.409 Can you hang on the blues with me, though? I 1092 00:52:08.409 --> 00:52:11.010 can hang. I can hang. Love the blues. You could 1093 00:52:11.110 --> 00:52:12.949 ski backwards maybe and just make it harder. 1094 00:52:14.889 --> 00:52:18.000 Absolutely. No, that kind of stuff where like there's something new, 1095 00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.510 new relationships, but also connected to old. That to me 1096 00:52:21.570 --> 00:52:25.349 is very super appealing. And I think you've got this 1097 00:52:25.869 --> 00:52:29.090 community that you've built. And to a certain extent, you know, 1098 00:52:29.110 --> 00:52:31.610 I think we all do. And seeing those communities kind 1099 00:52:31.650 --> 00:52:34.230 of meld and merge and grow is exciting. 1100 00:52:34.949 --> 00:52:37.510 I love it, man. The book flourished the art of 1101 00:52:37.610 --> 00:52:40.389 building meaning, joy, and fulfillment. How fun was it to 1102 00:52:40.409 --> 00:52:41.079 write this thing? 1103 00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:43.599 Super fun. And I'm still learning about it too. 1104 00:52:43.659 --> 00:52:44.989 Like, Is there going to be a part two? 1105 00:52:45.030 --> 00:52:48.550 We're going to change. Well, we're

going to, what I'm realizing, 1106 00:52:48.570 --> 00:52:51.510 we'll try this out, but we're going to shift the 1107 00:52:51.570 --> 00:52:53.150 subtitle on the book, actually. 1108 00:52:53.170 --> 00:52:54.949 So this is wrong. 1109 00:52:55.369 --> 00:52:56.949 We're going to shift it at some point. It may 1110 00:52:56.969 --> 00:52:59.159 be with the paperback or maybe in a little bit, 1111 00:52:59.219 --> 00:53:01.719 but we've got to sell the copies we have now 1112 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.570 with this subtitle. But what we've realized in these conversations 1113 00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.659 is that this is actually about the transformative power of 1114 00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:11.199 creating community. That's what the book's about. And that gives 1115 00:53:11.219 --> 00:53:13.480 you fulfillment. That gives you joy. That gives you meaning. 1116 00:53:13.909 --> 00:53:17.030 But that's what people are craving right now, I think. 1117 00:53:17.090 --> 00:53:19.340 And that is what I'm craving right now. And that's 1118 00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:21.960 what each story in the book is about, the power 1119 00:53:21.980 --> 00:53:25.960 of creating community. And that's what's exciting. So all those 1120 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:28.400 things will be true. Both those subtitles will be true. 1121 00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:31.719 But we're kind of realizing, it's funny. I mean, a 1122 00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:34.139 book is kind of an exploration into the world. And 1123 00:53:34.619 --> 00:53:36.679 there's the book you write. And then you get to 1124 00:53:36.949 --> 00:53:39.170 see what people respond to. And you get to see 1125 00:53:39.210 --> 00:53:40.949 where the conversation is going to go. And so that's 1126 00:53:40.969 --> 00:53:43.800 been really thrilling to go like, wait a minute. This 1127 00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:46.940 is about something that I wasn't quite appreciating a year ago. 1128 00:53:47.099 --> 00:53:48.539 And now I really see that clearly. 1129 00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.710 Yeah. I mean, do you even think about the next thing? 1130 00:53:51.730 --> 00:53:54.309 Or are you just all in on this? Because I 1131 00:53:54.329 --> 00:53:56.730 know some authors are already working on the next thing 1132 00:53:56.789 --> 00:53:59.389 before this one comes out. And other ones are, I'm 1133 00:53:59.690 --> 00:54:01.570 going to go on in this for years. Like, how 1134 00:54:01.590 --> 00:54:02.530 does that work for you? 1135 00:54:02.750 --> 00:54:04.699 Yeah, I'm kind of in between those two. On the 1136 00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:07.320 one hand, like, it is really fun to kind of 1137 00:54:07.900 --> 00:54:11.219 see this land, see people connect to it, see it resonate, 1138 00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:14.960 see what emerges from it. And in a larger way, 1139 00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.860 I've been doing that. You know, the talent code is 1140 00:54:16.909 --> 00:54:20.630 about what's making that individual so cool. Culture code is

1141 00:54:20.650 --> 00:54:23.769 about what's making those groups perform so well. And now 1142 00:54:23.829 --> 00:54:28.190 it's like, what's making these communities so thriving? Like what 1143 00:54:28.230 --> 00:54:30.699 is going on in that group? What is that joy 1144 00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:33.800 coming from? So each one is kind of led to 1145 00:54:33.820 --> 00:54:37.599 the next. So what's the next one? Beyond the grave? 1146 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:39.619 I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what 1147 00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:42.090 it is. But life is really big and deep, so 1148 00:54:42.130 --> 00:54:43.889 we'll see where it goes. But it has a way 1149 00:54:43.909 --> 00:54:44.869 of leading to the next thing. 1150 00:54:45.210 --> 00:54:48.139 I appreciate you, man. And thank you for taking so 1151 00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:51.659 much time off air, listening to me ask you stupid 1152 00:54:51.699 --> 00:54:56.179 questions about everything and anything and writing and sports and everything. Yeah, 1153 00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:57.900 it's funny. Your name comes up all the time in 1154 00:54:57.920 --> 00:54:59.420 a lot of the work we do when it comes 1155 00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:02.780 to great teams and culture code type stuff, talent code, 1156 00:55:02.820 --> 00:55:05.119 all of it. And now I know this is going 1157 00:55:05.139 --> 00:55:08.139 to inject its way into everything we do. So super 1158 00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:09.239 grateful for you. Thank you, man. 1159 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:10.079 Thank you for what you do. 1160 00:55:10.099 --> 00:55:17.340 Appreciate it. It is the end of the podcast club. 1161 00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:19.760 Thank you for being a member of the end of 1162 00:55:19.780 --> 00:55:21.380 the podcast club. If you are, send me a note, 1163 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:24.199 Ryan at learning leader.com. Let me know what you learned 1164 00:55:24.219 --> 00:55:28.280 from this great conversation with Dan Coyle. A few takeaways 1165 00:55:28.469 --> 00:55:33.210 from my notes, find your yellow doors, those opportunities you 1166 00:55:33.269 --> 00:55:35.949 glimpse out of the corner of your eye, the conversations 1167 00:55:35.969 --> 00:55:39.059 you that could go deeper, the friendships that could be closer, 1168 00:55:39.340 --> 00:55:42.659 the projects that might scare you a little bit, instead 1169 00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:45.119 of walking past them or saying, nah, I kind of 1170 00:55:45.139 --> 00:55:47.750 feel like being by myself, try to go out and 1171 00:55:47.849 --> 00:55:52.250 create some community, say yes, you never know what could happen. 1172 00:55:53.050 --> 00:55:58.199 And then create presence conditions, the ski trips, the long drives, 1173 00:55:58.239 --> 00:56:02.250 the shared meals, no phones, schedule them. This is how 1174 00:56:02.369 --> 00:56:06.389 connection happens, whether it's with your family, your kids, or 1175 00:56:06.449 --> 00:56:09.369 with your people at work. And I love the story 1176 00:56:09.409 --> 00:56:11.989 from Craig Council, what he talked about when he said, 1177 00:56:12.389 --> 00:56:14.510 how do you bounce back when things are going rough? 1178 00:56:14.550 --> 00:56:16.309 You're having a bad day. And he just said, simply, 1179 00:56:16.869 --> 00:56:19.440 I try to go help somebody, right? So good. So good. 1180 00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:25.039 And then practice curiosity like a superpower. I experienced this 1181 00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:29.750 firsthand with Dan. Jay Hennessy, Josh Gibson, their team president, 1182 00:56:29.809 --> 00:56:34.349 Chris Antonetti at the guardians. I walk up in their office, 1183 00:56:34.429 --> 00:56:37.570 kind of intimidated, expecting to pepper them with tons of 1184 00:56:37.590 --> 00:56:40.230 questions to learn from them. And that was the opposite 1185 00:56:40.250 --> 00:56:43.260 of what happened. They just kept asking me question after question, 1186 00:56:43.320 --> 00:56:45.980 wanting to learn. And what it taught me is that 1187 00:56:46.099 --> 00:56:50.179 those leaders who sustain excellence are just so curious and 1188 00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:53.230 a desire to learn, improve and get better. And Dan 1189 00:56:53.250 --> 00:56:55.949 has seen the same things with all of the excellent 1190 00:56:56.010 --> 00:56:59.719 leaders from teams that he has studied. Ask better questions. Listen. 1191 00:57:00.219 --> 00:57:05.219 Actually listen. Ask follow-up questions and strive to learn more. 1192 00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:09.760 Curiosity is also the ultimate way to show love. Once again, 1193 00:57:09.780 --> 00:57:11.780 I would say thank you so much for continuing to 1194 00:57:11.800 --> 00:57:13.530 spread the message and telling a friend or two, hey, 1195 00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:15.929 you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader 1196 00:57:15.949 --> 00:57:18.449 Show with Dan Coyle. I think he'll help you become 1197 00:57:18.469 --> 00:57:20.750 a more effective leader because you continue to do that. 1198 00:57:20.989 --> 00:57:23.670 And you also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts, write 1199 00:57:23.690 --> 00:57:27.329 a review, rate it hopefully five stars, and definitely subscribe. 1200 00:57:27.389 --> 00:57:29.880 By doing all of that, you are giving me the 1201 00:57:30.070 --> 00:57:32.119 opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. 1202 00:57:32.300 --> 00:57:36.039 And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, 1203 00:57:36.380 --> 00:57:37.559 so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.