Jakson Beyond the Basics with Oriana Leckert: Transforming Your Kickstarter from Good to Magnetic täydellinen litterointi

We've had, like you know, a long running issue around pen names, which is not 100% unique to publishing but like pretty close, you know, and so like having to. 00:04:24.411 --> 00:04:35.689 You know, I get to talk to the trust and safety team who are making, who are balancing legal requirements for the company with sort of like what our creators needs look like in the real world. 00:04:36.211 --> 00:04:45.468 So yeah, I think that part of my job, you know I also I get to talk to everybody at the company, really Like I get to talk to the marketing team about like which projects I think would make sense for different newsletters. 00:04:45.468 --> 00:04:54.982 I get to talk to the executive team about like how my category functions and how Kickstarter is sort of like thought of and understood within the book world. 00:04:54.982 --> 00:04:57.629 So I don't know, are you surprised by any of that? 00:04:57.629 --> 00:04:59.012 Would you count that surprising? 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.485 I think the thing that surprised me the most was in the beginning, where you said life coach. 00:05:02.485 --> 00:05:04.930 I'm like tell me more about that, Like how did that happen? 00:05:05.932 --> 00:05:18.064 Well, I think, in the same way, you know, like a Kickstarter, running a campaign, you know it can be a sort of like down and dirty, quick and easy, like let's just toss this out and raise a couple grand. 00:05:18.064 --> 00:05:27.992 But, like, I do get to talk to a lot of people who, like, there are various points in their career and we got to have like deep conversations about, like, does this make sense for you right now? 00:05:27.992 --> 00:05:33.790 What are the ramifications, you know, for you as an author, for you as a human, for you maybe as a parent or a pet owner? 00:05:33.790 --> 00:05:38.420 Like, how are you going to fulfill it and what's that going to look like for your life and like you know? 00:05:38.420 --> 00:05:50.346 So all of those things, I mean I don't know that I'm truly coaching people on like the whole of their lives, but the way that a campaign can fit in, you know that's not true for everybody, but definitely for some people. 00:05:51.141 --> 00:05:51.302 Wow. 00:05:51.302 --> 00:05:54.305 So do they reach out to you then, Like how do they get in touch with you for that? 00:05:54.305 --> 00:06:00.444 Stuff, because for me I'm like this was fun, just to like build myself and then like getting to talk to you now is like just a special bonus. 00:06:00.444 --> 00:06:03.149 You know, yeah, I am very accessible. 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:04.170 I have a weird name. 00:06:04.170 --> 00:06:13.523 I'm extremely online and like, if you find me, I will talk to you. 00:06:13.523 --> 00:06:17.456 This is not, I must say, something that necessarily my bosses love, that I will like get really in the weeds with kind of anyone who asks. 00:06:17.456 --> 00:06:19.221 I also, I suppose, have to be. 00:06:19.221 --> 00:06:20.285 You know, I have to be protective of my own time. 00:06:20.285 --> 00:06:21.449 I do have like some ways in which I got to be like. 00:06:21.449 --> 00:06:21.990 You know what? 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:22.711 Like at this stage, I just can't. 00:06:22.711 --> 00:06:23.535 I have to be protective of my own time. 00:06:23.535 --> 00:06:25.040 I do have like some ways in which I got to be like. 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.987 You know what, like at this stage, I just can't. 00:06:27.987 --> 00:06:29.610 I can't give you more yet. 00:06:29.610 --> 00:06:31.886 Like we have to wait until this or that. 00:06:31.886 --> 00:06:34.819 Here's some tips, here's some advice, here's some educational materials. 00:06:34.819 --> 00:06:36.264 Like come back to me later. 00:06:36.444 --> 00:06:52.910 Or, you know, if people like will find me to be like I'm having this like technical support issue with my suitcase campaign, that's just so far outside of what I'm paid to do, like I just really can't be there for you on that one. 00:06:52.910 --> 00:06:55.747 But yeah, you know that's that's good. 00:06:55.747 --> 00:07:01.300 And also, like I'm in the world, as you know, like I'm at conferences, I'm at gatherings, I'm at all kinds of so. 00:07:01.300 --> 00:07:08.129 Like it isn't even necessarily that someone comes to me and is like I need to know whether this is a thing that I should do right now. 00:07:08.129 --> 00:07:13.336 Like we joke, my team is called the outreach team and like we're sort of always working, never working. 00:07:13.336 --> 00:07:24.377 Like I cannot help but be at a dinner party and like start talking about like well, you know, if you actually turned that IP into a tarot deck, like a campaign could really help you. 00:07:24.377 --> 00:07:24.839 That. 00:07:24.860 --> 00:07:28.125 IP into a tarot deck like a campaign could really help you All of those things yeah. 00:07:28.125 --> 00:07:30.247 I can so see that happening. 00:07:30.247 --> 00:07:31.928 I think I do that myself where it's like. 00:07:31.928 --> 00:07:36.134 You must have high ideation in your CliftonStrengths too. 00:07:36.134 --> 00:07:36.836 Have you ever done those? 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:41.798 Somebody else just talked to me about CliftonStrengths, I think, also on a podcast I haven't. 00:07:41.798 --> 00:07:43.625 I don't know, but I think it's the same thing. 00:07:48.139 --> 00:07:52.199 I think that you should look, because I bet you high ideation is up there, because it's up there for me too, and I'd be like, oh, we'd be springing back and forth with ideas left and right. 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:52.779 It'd be so cool. 00:07:53.180 --> 00:08:03.533 I think I took exactly one step, which was I Googled it, I clicked on a quiz, I did half of it and then it was like, ready to give us the clifton strengths. 00:08:03.713 --> 00:08:07.665 Like if you get the, what is that book called strengths finder or path strengths finder? 00:08:07.665 --> 00:08:08.807 Uh 2.0. 00:08:08.807 --> 00:08:10.651 You get

like a free test in the back of the book. 00:08:10.651 --> 00:08:15.172 Oh, cool to be able to, to do it, but it's super fascinating so it's been worthwhile for me. 00:08:15.211 --> 00:08:17.887 I like it a lot I did that finally with enneagram. 00:08:17.887 --> 00:08:21.764 People talked to me about enneagrams for so long that I finally bought a book, right. 00:08:21.764 --> 00:08:31.432 I had been so skeptical until I read the description of type two and I was like, okay, all right, like that's a bit too close, like did you write this? 00:08:31.660 --> 00:08:33.025 I feel very called out right now. 00:08:33.025 --> 00:08:37.789 Where did your love for publishing come into play, like, how did that all come together? 00:08:38.379 --> 00:08:41.970 Golly, it's been the only most consistent thing in my life since I was young. 00:08:41.970 --> 00:08:49.150 I mean, I suppose when I was 15 or 16, I thought I was going to be the next Bernadette Peters. 00:08:49.150 --> 00:08:57.091 I was like, obviously a big singer, like in high school, a little bit into college, but like, once, the sort of once, that dream diminished. 00:08:57.091 --> 00:09:00.754 I think I books have always been the thing I've loved most in the world. 00:09:00.754 --> 00:09:03.826 You know, it's been the most consistent thing in my life. 00:09:03.826 --> 00:09:06.140 Uh, I think you know my, my. 00:09:06.140 --> 00:09:09.889 There's a photo of me somewhere my senior year of college. 00:09:09.889 --> 00:09:25.278 I'm holding a fan of purple envelopes in which our resume is printed on like I don't remember glittery ink on blue paper that I was sending for like job applications to like FSG and like new directions to be like senior editor. 00:09:25.278 --> 00:09:30.193 I was like obviously me at 21, I will be hired at the most prestigious publishing company. 00:09:31.096 --> 00:09:36.357 Yeah, none of that played out exactly, but my whole career has been in and around the publishing industry. 00:09:36.357 --> 00:09:43.748 I have sort of a parallel career as an arts and culture journalist, which happened by accident and like has fed my soul in many ways that I never expected. 00:09:43.748 --> 00:09:49.783 But yeah, you know, this is just what I've always done. 00:09:49.783 --> 00:09:51.934 And again, like I never thought I was going to be working at Kickstarter, this was much of my career. 00:09:51.934 --> 00:09:56.607 I never thought I was going to be doing what I was doing next, but in so many unexpected ways. 00:09:56.607 --> 00:10:03.205 This job is just such a synthesis of like, all the things I like and all the things that I am not always aware that I'm good at. 00:10:03.205 --> 00:10:03.966 So Isn't that amazing am? 00:10:03.985 --> 00:10:05.008 not always aware that I'm good at. 00:10:05.008 --> 00:10:05.788 So I don't know, isn't that amazing? 00:10:05.788 --> 00:10:06.870 I love how that comes together. 00:10:06.870 --> 00:10:15.629 It's like when we don't try to force a certain

career or a certain path, the right ones do really kind of come to us because, like, how would you like Kickstarter? 00:10:15.629 --> 00:10:24.148 I remember the first time I did a Kickstarter campaign was like 2013, like way back in the day when I was launching my first book and I didn't know what I was doing and the first one failed. 00:10:24.148 --> 00:10:28.254 And then I realized what I did wrong with the first one and like immediately just relaunched and it was fine. 00:10:28.254 --> 00:10:45.215 But it's like I wouldn't even looking back then, I would not have anticipated the transition and how it's changed and evolved over the years, and like, so it makes total sense to me, like how you would come into this place with all of your gifts and all the insights and all the things that you have and just be able to rock it. 00:10:45.215 --> 00:10:46.235 It just makes total sense to me. 00:10:46.596 --> 00:10:54.003 Well, thank you so much, and I suppose I should call out my former boss who hired me, who is someone I had known professionally for a long time. 00:10:54.003 --> 00:10:58.162 She was the head of publishing for five or six years and I think her name is Margot Atwell. 00:10:58.162 --> 00:11:01.772 In fact, depending on when this comes out, she's got a live campaign right now. 00:11:01.772 --> 00:11:15.725 She's being published with the Feminist Press an anthology called Absolute Pleasure, which is authors, queer authors writing about the Rocky Horror Picture Show on the occasion of its 50th anniversary and how it impacted them, and all of this. 00:11:15.725 --> 00:11:33.245 Anyway, I think that she is singularly responsible for, like so much of the way that Kickstarter and publishing have interacted over the years, so I I very much consider that I'm like continuing her work, um that she laid all the groundwork for me to be able to succeed in the way that I have in this role. 00:11:33.807 --> 00:11:34.769 That is so awesome. 00:11:34.769 --> 00:11:35.250 I love that. 00:11:35.250 --> 00:11:36.724 So when is that campaign running? 00:11:36.724 --> 00:11:37.085 Do you know? 00:11:37.085 --> 00:11:37.525 By chance? 00:11:37.525 --> 00:11:38.168 Great question. 00:11:38.269 --> 00:11:39.400 It just launched this week. 00:11:39.400 --> 00:11:40.803 I'm pulling it up right now. 00:11:41.667 --> 00:11:47.260 Uh, it closes on May 22nd okay, yeah, so the the podcast comes out the day before, so perfect. 00:11:47.260 --> 00:11:50.969 So if you are listening to this podcast, go go go check it out. 00:11:51.350 --> 00:11:52.432 Yeah, I mean what it's. 00:11:52.432 --> 00:11:59.342 You know it's so boring to say a url, but it's kickstartercom slash projects, slash margot m-a-r-g-o-t. 00:11:59.342 --> 00:12:01.509 Slash absolute dash pleasure. 00:12:01.509 --> 00:12:05.219 Back her campaign now, yeah, that that sounds so awesome. 00:12:05.278 --> 00:12:09.091 I'm definitely going to check that out and well, obviously I get to do it now because it's open already. 00:12:09.091 --> 00:12:12.504 So good, oh, my gosh, okay. 00:12:12.504 --> 00:12:15.211 So obviously you've seen so many campaigns come across your desk. 00:12:15.211 --> 00:12:22.928 When you feel that there's a this is a special one gut instinct about a campaign, what are some of the less obvious signals that you pick up on? 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:33.431 Yeah, I mean, it was so kind of you to send me these questions in advance, and so I read them and I was like, wow, these are so much different than the questions I usually get. 00:12:33.431 --> 00:12:38.489 I could either deeply prepare or wing it, and so I chose the latter. 00:12:38.489 --> 00:12:39.591 So I didn't really. 00:12:39.591 --> 00:12:43.447 I mean, I kind of thought it would be more authentic to just like answer you on the spot. 00:12:43.447 --> 00:12:49.510 I mean, so let me let me re-say it Some of the lesser known elements of a campaign that I think is really special. 00:12:50.681 --> 00:12:55.993 I would say one thing I noticed that not everybody does is whether a person has backed campaigns. 00:12:55.993 --> 00:12:58.368 This is not like a consistent signal. 00:12:58.368 --> 00:13:06.383 Sometimes you've got a separate account that you've been backing from, or like maybe you know like it doesn't always matter and I don't know who else notices it that you've been backing from or like maybe you know like it doesn't always matter and I don't know who else notices it. 00:13:06.383 --> 00:13:07.647 But I think that tells a couple of things. 00:13:07.647 --> 00:13:21.360 It demonstrates that you understand the power of community, that, like this is not a, you know, necessarily just a well that you go to, to like take water, but that you're also like putting your money and your time back into it. 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:30.273 It also shows me that you have looked at and probably studied or, at least on a subconscious level, gotten a sense of the way other people do this. 00:13:30.273 --> 00:13:35.842 You know, I mean plenty of people can run a Kickstarter in a vacuum and, like you know, lots of people can do great that way. 00:13:35.842 --> 00:13:53.128 But, having seen what other people do, I mean this is a line and I say it all the time but like, like I'm an expert in Kickstarter because I stare at Kickstarter all day long and you can stare at Kickstarter all day long and you can find what other people are doing projects like yours, different from yours. 00:13:53.207 --> 00:14:01.383 Like I was just in a talk last night and somebody brought up one of our big games campaigns throw throw burrito and a way that they did gosh, can I remember? 00:14:01.383 --> 00:14:04.089 Um, something like it? 00:14:04.089 --> 00:14:11.421 A I don't remember all the details, but it was like if you wrap yourself up in a blanket like a burrito and post it on Instagram, something happened. 00:14:11.421 --> 00:14:14.269 Like, if a hundred people do that, everybody gets an enamel pin.

00:14:14.269 --> 00:14:14.671 I don't know. 00:14:14.671 --> 00:14:16.644 But like, well, that's a crazy idea. 00:14:16.644 --> 00:14:19.272 Like that's a way I never would have thought of structuring. 00:14:19.272 --> 00:14:36.903 You know, like this kind of like social proof and like kind of in a hidden way, getting people to spread the word for you, you know anyway, I mean I don't need to go too long on this but like also like the creative rewards are another thing that like really, really really thrill me, like that is that's my most favorite thing to see. 00:14:36.903 --> 00:14:47.967 Like not necessarily complicated swag, or even I love the special editions, but like even the wild, you know, a velvet cover and like a stained glass window in the slipcase. 00:14:48.008 --> 00:14:52.442 Whatever I more get excited about, like the stuff that only you could do. 00:14:52.442 --> 00:14:55.009 That only makes sense for your audience. 00:14:55.009 --> 00:15:01.273 An example I always get about this is like Penny Reed has um, two very well-known romance novelist. 00:15:01.273 --> 00:15:12.602 Uh, she did a campaign for a series called Knitting in the City and she's got a buddy who owns a yarn store and they made a custom color of yarn that was only available during the campaign. 00:15:12.602 --> 00:15:14.126 Beautiful, wonderful. 00:15:14.126 --> 00:15:14.889 I love that. 00:15:14.889 --> 00:15:19.505 I love Willow Winters, also a romance novelist, an erotic romance novelist. 00:15:19.907 --> 00:15:34.208 In her early campaigns she made scene boxes where she wrote out the sex scenes like a film script and included in the box like the toys and the accessories that are used, so you could act out the scenes from your favorite books at home on your own. 00:15:34.208 --> 00:15:35.432 Like these are the things. 00:15:35.432 --> 00:15:38.107 Oh, I just heard another one recently. 00:15:38.107 --> 00:15:45.090 Someone doing, I think Kat Singleton doing a why Choose romance, had candles that were scented after each of the suitors. 00:15:45.090 --> 00:16:01.171 Come on, come on, that's so cool and like I think that matters, because you're not writing an erotic romance novel, you don't have, you know, a heroine who knits, but there's something like that in your work that you could pull out and make into a fun reward. 00:16:01.171 --> 00:16:09.447 That's going to be exciting for you, thrilling for your backers, maybe deepen your bonds with, like other people in your creative community. 00:16:09.447 --> 00:16:10.410 Like I love that. 00:16:10.410 --> 00:16:11.441 I love that stuff so much. 00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:12.623 That is so cool. 00:16:12.623 --> 00:16:30.400 Yeah, for like Write your Reality, I was trying to go much more into like the quantum manifestation, helping people understand that, but I'm in the process of like mapping out my steamy rom-com, one that I'm going to be doing in July, and so for me it's like learning about all the different tools and things that you can create that are just yours. 00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:38.147 That's been so much fun because then it's like it like, like you just said, it's tied to what your IP actually is, but it sparks it in a new way. 00:16:38.147 --> 00:16:48.176 That's just so visceral that you're like you know, this was all just in my head and now there's like this thing, not just a book, but like a thing that's physical, that's tied to that thing. 00:16:48.937 --> 00:16:50.897 It's wild, or even virtual. 00:16:50.897 --> 00:17:05.982 I mean something as simple as like here are 20 tracks that I love to listen to while I write, or a book soundtrack, or like here are five other authors whose work inspired me so much that I've made a nice pretty pdf of like the recommendations that I have for them, or naming rights. 00:17:05.982 --> 00:17:08.769 We see this all the time We'll name the dragon after your dog. 00:17:08.769 --> 00:17:12.387 We'll name the villain after your mother-in-law, we'll name the hero after your son. 00:17:12.387 --> 00:17:15.442 I've seen also if you have like very fancy friends. 00:17:15.442 --> 00:17:25.471 You know this woman, emily Flake, made a residency upstate for like female identifying comic writers and so she's like a New Yorker cartoonist. 00:17:25.471 --> 00:17:26.943 She does have fancy friends. 00:17:26.943 --> 00:17:32.145 I know one of them was like Josh Gondelman will call your mom on her birthday to wish her a happy birthday. 00:17:32.145 --> 00:17:33.269 Like it doesn't. 00:17:33.269 --> 00:17:36.422 It doesn't have to be a lot of money, it doesn't even have to be a lot of time. 00:17:36.422 --> 00:17:41.384 It just has to be special and meaningful to you and the people who are supporting you that is so good. 00:17:41.523 --> 00:17:42.185 I love that. 00:17:42.185 --> 00:17:47.643 It kind in a sense touches on the question that I was going to ask you next where it's. 00:17:47.643 --> 00:17:52.815 Like you know a lot of authors, we get hyper-focused on those pricing tiers and like the deliverables and what's going to happen there. 00:17:52.815 --> 00:17:59.522 But from what your experience, what's the biggest missed opportunity that you see when it comes to activating a backer's emotional investment? 00:18:00.003 --> 00:18:02.590 Just interacting with the backers directly. 00:18:02.590 --> 00:18:03.472 It is wild to me. 00:18:03.472 --> 00:18:04.493 Like this is. 00:18:04.493 --> 00:18:12.250 I think one of the big things about Kickstarter is that we're really we help collapse the like divisions between creator and their supporters. 00:18:12.250 --> 00:18:18.709 And like this doesn't have to be tell all your backers to wrap themselves in a burrito and make an Instagram post about it. 00:18:18.709 --> 00:18:20.707 Like it can be as simple as like. 00:18:20.707 --> 00:18:27.041 Before the campaign even starts talking to them, I'm working out what things, what swag I'm going to do. 00:18:27.323 --> 00:18:29.990 One nice

piece of swag for this campaign. 00:18:29.990 --> 00:18:35.990 Would you rather see a personalized notebook or a tote bag with art by this gorgeous creator? 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:37.031 Just ask them. 00:18:37.031 --> 00:18:45.007 Even if you always wanted to make that notebook and that was always your intention, the act of asking them is going to make them feel included. 00:18:45.007 --> 00:18:52.124 You can also say or C, tell me something else that I haven't thought of. 00:18:52.124 --> 00:19:02.604 Maybe enough people tell you to do a thing you hadn't even considered yet that turns out to be easy and fun and cool, and you can interact with the backers before the campaign, during the campaign, after the campaign, like all kinds of ways. 00:19:02.604 --> 00:19:04.790 So I think how do we interact with them before the campaign? 00:19:04.790 --> 00:19:09.892 Because I don't Through whatever avenues are already available to you through your, I guess. 00:19:09.951 --> 00:19:11.443 I should say your supporters. 00:19:11.443 --> 00:19:15.011 They are your yeah okay, I was like you can do that in the campaign. 00:19:15.011 --> 00:19:19.491 It's like, okay, don't don't bring me out there, because I was like did I miss it? 00:19:20.220 --> 00:19:20.840 What could you do? 00:19:20.840 --> 00:19:33.507 You know I bet on your, on your prelaunch page now that we've expanded those, you could probably like have a quiz there that says you know, uh, at me on Instagram or like DM me and choose a, b or C on this quiz. 00:19:33.507 --> 00:19:48.604 You know, like there's probably ways you couldn't do it through the platform, you can't message people yet, but I suppose you kind of could though, like if you've already run a campaign and it's, it's in a similar genre, you could comment or ask those people who have already done it 100% yeah that would make sense 00:19:48.624 --> 00:19:49.326 too Interesting. 00:19:49.326 --> 00:19:51.230 That's so good. 00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:54.846 There's so many different ways, like I've been right now with the campaign for Write. 00:19:54.846 --> 00:20:04.949 Your Reality is technically still going, but I've been interacting and just dropping like little updates and thank you, you actually gave me the advice to hold back on all the stretch goals and just plunk them in one at a time. 00:20:04.949 --> 00:20:05.809 That was perfect. 00:20:05.809 --> 00:20:07.832 That was so good, and so I've been doing that. 00:20:07.832 --> 00:20:09.313 It's just, it's so interesting. 00:20:09.313 --> 00:20:17.119 But authors I don't know what it is about authors on platforms they're so like. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:17.601 They're just like you. 00:20:17.601 --> 00:20:17.921 Do you boo you? 00:20:17.941 --> 00:20:18.862 ask a question, they hardly respond to you. 00:20:18.862 --> 00:20:23.007 Well, there's I mean, I'm sure you probably know there's like an incredible Facebook group. 00:20:23.007 --> 00:20:26.131 This is not Kickstarter official, but

it's called Kickstarter for Authors. 00:20:26.131 --> 00:20:29.295 It's run by Anthea Sharp and Thorne Coyle it is. 00:20:29.295 --> 00:20:33.189 I dip into it a couple of times a week just to see what people are talking about. 00:20:33.189 --> 00:20:36.300 They run an incredible, incredible community. 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:42.221 There's like over 7,000 authors who are just asking each other all day long where'd you get your sprayed edges? 00:20:42.221 --> 00:20:43.984 What are you thinking about tariffs? 00:20:43.984 --> 00:20:46.951 Will you review my campaign and give me some critical feedback? 00:20:46.951 --> 00:20:49.342 Like incredible, incredible community. 00:20:49.342 --> 00:20:51.970 I I'm really just so dazzled by what they have over there. 00:20:52.941 --> 00:20:54.505 That's where I got like the whole checklist. 00:20:54.665 --> 00:20:56.371 I was looking for it, I'm like it's on my desk. 00:20:56.371 --> 00:20:58.382 Yep, yep. 00:20:58.402 --> 00:20:58.761 So good. 00:20:58.761 --> 00:21:01.325 Uh, I personally am not on Facebook anymore. 00:21:01.464 --> 00:21:08.513 I have issues with that platform, but I do the literal, only reason I go to Facebook is to check in on that group. 00:21:08.513 --> 00:21:10.175 I'm this. 00:21:10.175 --> 00:21:25.275 There is internal conversation about making custom discords for Kickstarter and, like I, I don't know I don't know actually who runs discord and whether I would rather support them, but I worry, I would like. 00:21:25.275 --> 00:21:35.520 I would love it if that existed somewhere that wasn't Facebook, but I can only imagine like the difficulty and the barriers to entry of like transitioning a community of that size to another platform. 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:45.688 So I understand that they're there for now and that's where I find them and I just hope that someday it becomes somewhere else that's a little less compromised. 00:21:45.929 --> 00:21:46.912 Right, yeah, I'm with you. 00:21:46.912 --> 00:21:48.506 I'm with you right on that. 00:21:48.506 --> 00:21:52.148 I haven't even though the campaign's running I haven't been back on there. 00:21:52.148 --> 00:21:52.891 I probably should. 00:21:52.891 --> 00:22:01.507 I haven't been on Facebook since like January, so I'm like, nope, just can't do it, I get it I respect that choice. 00:22:01.827 --> 00:22:05.231 Yeah, it's been an interesting awakening with that one, that's for sure. 00:22:05.231 --> 00:22:08.615 I mean, I kind of felt the vibes of that coming for a while, but it was. 00:22:08.615 --> 00:22:14.423 It was very clear come this earlier this year. 00:22:14.423 --> 00:22:20.951 Okay, so if you could wave a magic wand and change how authors use Kickstarter, what new creative norms would you love to see? 00:22:21.953 --> 00:22:22.654 I don't know. 00:22:22.654 --> 00:22:31.147 I mean, I kind of feel like maybe it doesn't say that great of stuff about me, but like I just want to see what people do. 00:22:31.147 --> 00:22:34.103

I don't necessarily like, that's where I'm. 00:22:34.103 --> 00:22:37.575 Just I'm so surprised by the creativity that authors bring to it. 00:22:37.575 --> 00:22:42.430 I don't know the one idea that I continue to wish we. 00:22:42.932 --> 00:22:46.563 I think that there would be a way to do this technically that kickstarter would have to help with. 00:22:46.563 --> 00:22:59.182 But like I want to see somebody like build a book tour via kickstarter, like the way that I would love I've suggested this internally before to have like, uh, kind of like conditional rewards, of like. 00:22:59.182 --> 00:23:02.127 If 10 people back at this tier, then you get it. 00:23:02.127 --> 00:23:09.791 But in the absence of that, what I would like to see someone do is like a tier that's like $500. 00:23:09.791 --> 00:23:26.462 That's Columbus, ohio, and if you get 10 friends each of whom to give you money and you put in the $500, I'm coming to your town and you could like map yourself a tour in that way, I think that would be really, really lovely, but yeah, I mean, I don't know that there's. 00:23:28.885 --> 00:23:31.515 This is like a kind of a sideways answer to the question. 00:23:31.515 --> 00:23:46.753 I love that special editions are like the biggest thing and the like majority of the category right now, but I don't want that to have such an oversized impact that people start to think that you can't use Kickstarter for just a regular book or something different. 00:23:46.753 --> 00:23:52.275 It has to be, you know, the fanciest, most expensive special edition possible. 00:23:52.275 --> 00:23:55.449 So I mean, I wouldn't, I don't want to change it. 00:23:55.449 --> 00:23:57.237 I don't want any fewer specials. 00:23:57.237 --> 00:24:01.713 I just also want people to remember there's plenty of other stuff that you can do here. 00:24:02.717 --> 00:24:06.048 I guess one magic wand that I literally am trying to wave. 00:24:06.048 --> 00:24:07.412 I think this is okay to talk about. 00:24:07.412 --> 00:24:19.576 I would like for Kickstarter to be a reporting entity to Sarkana, who runs BookScan, so that books sold on Kickstarter can be counted toward sales figures in the trade. 00:24:19.576 --> 00:24:21.281 I'm working on that. 00:24:21.281 --> 00:24:23.028 I have been working on that for multiple years. 00:24:23.028 --> 00:24:30.943 It is so much more complicated than you could imagine, but that's the magic wand that I'm holding and one day I will wave it and it will work, that's super interesting. 00:24:30.963 --> 00:24:33.030 I wonder why is it so complicated? 00:24:38.744 --> 00:24:39.888 We could spend most of the rest of our time on this. 00:24:39.888 --> 00:24:41.232 I'm trying to think of what's the shortest way to say it. 00:24:41.232 --> 00:24:43.801 Part of the problem is that Kickstarter are not sales in a traditional way. 00:24:43.801 --> 00:24:49.074 The way that most people fulfill it looks to the retailer. 00:24:49.074 --> 00:24:54.066 It looks to

BookScan, like bulk buys which are, like, not counted toward bestseller lists. 00:24:54.066 --> 00:25:04.214 I mean, typically you are buying 100 or 500 or a thousand copies of your book to send it out to individual people, so the burden falls on us to demonstrate to them why. 00:25:04.214 --> 00:25:10.845 No, no, this is not, you know, somebody just like trying to juice the numbers by buying a thousand copies of their own book. 00:25:10.884 --> 00:25:19.599 There are individual sales, and so that would mean internally, we would need to have signals of like you know how many of the? 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:36.951 I mean, I think you've seen we've shifted over the last year or so from tier based rewards to skew based rewards, so you can actually now identify in a campaign literally the number of books running through it, whereas before not every reward had a book in it and some tiers had multiple. 00:25:36.951 --> 00:25:40.827 But you know, like everything was just a lot more fuzzy, so that's part of it. 00:25:40.827 --> 00:25:47.891 Anyway, yeah, like a lot of stuff needs to happen within our tools that would be able to collect the data properly. 00:25:47.891 --> 00:25:51.349 And then we'd have to educate authors on, like, what they're doing and why. 00:25:51.811 --> 00:25:53.057 You know, do you have an ISB? 00:25:53.057 --> 00:25:55.025 So like yeah, there's all of that stuff. 00:25:55.025 --> 00:25:59.016 I guess I'll say by the time this comes out, we'll have like made a lot of noise about this. 00:25:59.016 --> 00:26:02.055 We're rolling out a whole suite of post-campaign tools. 00:26:02.055 --> 00:26:06.356 We're rolling out our own native pledge management system in early May. 00:26:06.356 --> 00:26:19.585 I think that that puts us a significant stride closer to being able to get this done because of the way, the type of data we'll be collecting, the way we'll be collecting it once we have those systems in place. 00:26:20.265 --> 00:26:21.047 Oh, that makes sense. 00:26:21.047 --> 00:26:23.693 Okay, that's really cool, interesting. 00:26:23.693 --> 00:26:25.317 I can't wait to learn more. 00:26:25.317 --> 00:26:29.086 My campaign ends in the middle of May, so I'm like we're going to be playing around with some of these new tools. 00:26:30.067 --> 00:26:31.490 I might have an email for you, yeah. 00:26:31.671 --> 00:26:34.135 I would love to see. 00:26:34.135 --> 00:26:34.817 I would love to see. 00:26:34.817 --> 00:26:44.597 Okay, so are there any early patterns or creative experiments that you're seeing that could quietly transform how authors approach crowdfunding over the next few years? 00:26:44.597 --> 00:26:47.934 Anything that's kind of like trending that you're like I didn't see this building. 00:26:50.046 --> 00:26:58.175 No, I mean, I feel like the specials reallys really did like, if we had been talking a year or two years ago, that would have been the thing I mean. 00:26:58.175 --> 00:27:01.830 In fact, when I was working under

Margo, she was pitching that idea. 00:27:01.830 --> 00:27:04.984 We pitched that idea to a lot of people and it didn't quite. 00:27:04.984 --> 00:27:08.854 It didn't catch on enough that it became a groundswell. 00:27:08.854 --> 00:27:10.436 Um, what's the next thing? 00:27:10.436 --> 00:27:14.074 Like that, I mean, I've been looking a lot at like lit rpg. 00:27:14.074 --> 00:27:16.548 I think that there's a big growth area there. 00:27:16.729 --> 00:27:26.724 I think, especially on kickstarter, like those books are already like a way to gamify the idea of reading and writing and like kickstarter can be gamified. 00:27:26.724 --> 00:27:28.208 Our games created. 00:27:28.208 --> 00:27:30.111 Our games community is massive. 00:27:30.111 --> 00:27:37.211 Like that could help some crossovers from like the ravenous games backers into the publishing landscape. 00:27:37.211 --> 00:27:41.685 I'm also seeing a lot of sort of like IP crossover in a similar vein. 00:27:41.905 --> 00:27:53.240 Like you know, a tabletop board game based on a fantasy novel or an RPG, or like Holly Black did a card game, sherilyn Kenyon did a tarot deck, like stuff like that. 00:27:53.240 --> 00:28:00.125 That's like reappropriating stuff that is already yours, that you already have, in a new format for a new audience that you can also. 00:28:00.125 --> 00:28:13.690 Often, like you know, we'll raise so much money on this deck, which has excellent margins, that can also fund, you know, a deluxe audiobook version or like the recovering of, like the series, you know, like other things like that. 00:28:13.690 --> 00:28:17.353 So I think yeah, I'm not sure if that's gonna what's the question? 00:28:17.353 --> 00:28:20.347 Quietly transform how authors approach crowdfunding. 00:28:20.347 --> 00:28:21.070 I don't know. 00:28:21.070 --> 00:28:22.617 Those are some things I'm thinking about. 00:28:22.617 --> 00:28:24.827 Is that close enough to answering your question? 00:28:24.847 --> 00:28:25.972 definitely, definitely. 00:28:25.972 --> 00:28:29.249 It's very interesting to me just to see how, how authors are using it. 00:28:29.249 --> 00:28:37.710 Like I obviously, before I got started, went through a lot of the non-fiction campaigns just to make sure, like, okay, how are they kind of laying things out, like, what kind of tiers are they using? 00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:47.488 Just because it's been, it's been a hot minute, since I've used Kickstarter personally other than backing other campaigns, and so for me it was just kind of like just taking a look at, like how are they doing? 00:28:47.488 --> 00:28:59.730 And I'm like, ooh, that's kind of a cool way to add this and then layer that and and just like for me, this first time is kind of throwing everything out there and seeing what sticks, like, what are people actually wanting in this situation? 00:28:59.750 --> 00:29:07.217 And I think you know, most of many of my examples tend to be from fiction, but I think like there are versions

of this for nonfiction, for example, workbooks. 00:29:07.217 --> 00:29:20.031 I think Kickstarter is going to become more and more like a really strong place for workbooks, because much of the rest of the book selling internet is decreasing them. 00:29:20.031 --> 00:29:22.000 I think Amazon will no longer stock them because they're like low content or something like that. 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:46.449 So you know, if you're already writing a nonfiction book with any amount of like, you know self-help or like exercises, or how to making a companion workbook, making companion courses, you know again, just like reformatting the content you already got into a slightly different version that would either that would get people to like double their support or appeal to a different audience that wants to learn in a different kind of way. 00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:48.573 Oh sure, you could even like. 00:29:48.573 --> 00:29:51.386 You just spark some ideas in me where I'm like, oh, I could do. 00:29:51.386 --> 00:29:53.330 I could do something like that with my own stuff. 00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:56.018 Come back with another Kickstarter for the workbooks I got with that. 00:29:56.018 --> 00:29:56.645 How cool is that. 00:29:57.007 --> 00:29:57.849 Absolutely, that's awesome. 00:29:57.849 --> 00:29:58.351 I love it. 00:29:59.374 --> 00:30:08.308 So are there any mistakes that you see happening, not necessarily from ignorance, but from fear, Like are they holding back or playing small, Like what do you see there when it comes to authors? 00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:09.832 Yeah, I mean I do. 00:30:09.832 --> 00:30:17.253 I also think I sit from a somewhat lofty space, like it's easy for me to pass judgment on whether someone is afraid. 00:30:17.253 --> 00:30:24.559 I mean, there's a sort of a long standing debate within the community of, like how to set your funding goal. 00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.952 You know that's obviously a huge and crucial question. 00:30:27.952 --> 00:30:37.035 There's a big current of folks who set their funding goal, especially for their first or second campaign, at $500, which is out of fear and I get it. 00:30:37.035 --> 00:30:43.417 I understand you want to make sure that you fund that's like the most important thing, but it worries me. 00:30:43.417 --> 00:30:55.890 I mean, kickstarter was designed as all or nothing funding so that you could do an honest accounting of what you needed and not come to the end and have to do a project without enough money to really make it. 00:30:55.890 --> 00:31:03.454 Like, if you ask for $500, I mean, if you're doing like a simple print on demand paperback release, maybe $500 is fine. 00:31:03.454 --> 00:31:16.367 But if you're doing a complicated you know special edition, if you have lots of rewards, all this other stuff, like if you come to the end and you have made a lot less than your budget requires, you're kind of in a bad spot. 00:31:16.367 --> 00:31:22.127 You know it puts you worse off than you were and, like you know, I mean a sort of counterexample here. 00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:29.291 I was actually hired at Kickstarter to grow our journalism category, and so one of the early campaigns I worked on was like a big. 00:31:29.291 --> 00:31:36.727 It was a number of a number of writers who had like big bloggers and big sort of like gawker in that community. 00:31:36.727 --> 00:31:51.880 They were launching a new collaboratively owned media outlet, right, and they I can't remember now, I think they came with like a you know, like a $90,000 goal and I was like, look, I could not believe more strongly in what you guys are doing, but that's really high for a journalism campaign on Kickstarter. 00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:55.088 Like are doing, but that that's really high for a journalism campaign on Kickstarter. 00:31:55.088 --> 00:31:56.633 Like, are we really comfortable with that? 00:31:56.633 --> 00:32:04.487 And the founder she said you know, I want, when people land on this page, for them to immediately see the ambition of what we're doing. 00:32:04.586 --> 00:32:16.650 Like, I don't want to trim my sails, I don't want to, like you know, I want everyone to know this is what journalism costs, this is what it means to like start an endeavor like this, and I want that to be clear from the start. 00:32:16.650 --> 00:32:18.073 And she funded, they made it. 00:32:18.073 --> 00:32:23.317 So you know, as I just just to, like you know, walk myself back a little bit. 00:32:23.317 --> 00:32:29.356 I don't want to encourage people to raise their goals so high that they fail and then they blame me about it. 00:32:29.356 --> 00:32:34.394 I'm not trying to do that, I just I think that's sort of the biggest thing that people are scared. 00:32:34.394 --> 00:32:41.231 They're so scared of not funding that they're not necessarily considering the ramifications of funding too low. 00:32:42.394 --> 00:32:43.376 What are the ramifications? 00:32:43.376 --> 00:32:48.676 Because for me, when I did this particular one, I said at 500, but it was a recommendation on Anthea's book. 00:32:48.676 --> 00:32:52.352 If you haven't done a Kickstarter for a while to set it there, I'm like that's fine. 00:32:52.352 --> 00:32:55.625 It wasn't out of fear, but it was definitely out of like I don't know where to start. 00:32:55.625 --> 00:32:56.468 So we're going to start somewhere. 00:32:56.468 --> 00:32:57.750 Why not Right? 00:32:57.872 --> 00:33:00.566 So yeah, well, and I don't like being against Anthea. 00:33:00.566 --> 00:33:25.567 I think Anthea is brilliant and wonderful and I, just, like I said, you know, depending on what it is that you're making and what your fixed costs actually are, if, if you end the campaign with like less money than you need, but now you've made all these promises about trim size and bells and whistles and reward types and things like that, you're just maybe you're fine to fund it. 00:33:25.567 --> 00:33:29.679 You know to cover the rest by

yourself, but maybe you're going to wind up trying to cut corners, trying to, like you know, produce an inferior product. 00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:40.750 Like disappoint yourself, disappoint your backers, like all of those are worse outcomes, I think, than if you aim too high, didn't get there and then, exactly as you did, we're like well, I learned a lot of lessons. 00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:46.215 I'm going to change the way I'm doing things and try again and like hope to get where I need to be at that point. 00:33:46.656 --> 00:33:47.339 Yeah, yeah. 00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:49.066 Well, for me it was really easy. 00:33:49.066 --> 00:33:54.074 Like I have a lot of digital stuff in the background, so I knew that my funding would be fine at 500. 00:33:54.074 --> 00:33:55.055 Like that's not a big deal. 00:33:55.055 --> 00:33:57.900 I knew that would be no issue there whatsoever. 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:04.686 But my paperback books in the campaign are just normal, like I'm not, I'm not trying to go special edition yet, I'm just trying to get them out. 00:34:04.686 --> 00:34:08.371 This is a new edition for the first book and so it's like second books coming out. 00:34:08.371 --> 00:34:09.152 We'll see how it goes. 00:34:09.152 --> 00:34:19.168 And it's just been kind of fun to play around with the concept again because I've seen you speak so many times and then I've seen a lot of the panels and you know other authors who are who have been doing it. 00:34:19.168 --> 00:34:23.106 I'm like you know what I feel, like now's the time to give it a try and just kind of play with it. 00:34:23.106 --> 00:34:29.835 So for me it was definitely a let's just play with it and see what happens and see if I need to adjust, like going forward. 00:34:29.835 --> 00:34:30.956 So this gives a lot of insight. 00:34:30.976 --> 00:34:31.356 Thank you. 00:34:31.356 --> 00:34:34.061 Yeah Well, and it sounds like you made the perfect choice for you. 00:34:34.061 --> 00:34:37.929 So again, I'm not out here trying to get people to question their convictions. 00:34:38.210 --> 00:34:38.893 Yeah, for sure. 00:34:38.893 --> 00:34:39.980 I think it's just really interesting. 00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:40.442 I like it. 00:34:40.442 --> 00:34:47.369 I like being able to hear the take on it from what you're seeing and what a lot of other authors are doing, and it just helps a lot to be able to know. 00:34:47.369 --> 00:34:49.072 You know where do you fall. 00:34:49.072 --> 00:34:50.213 Where do you fall on that spectrum? 00:34:50.213 --> 00:34:56.233 It's really neat, Okay, so in the publishing world we're often told that we have to build an audience first. 00:34:56.233 --> 00:35:01.590 Do you think Kickstarter can flip that dynamic, Like build an audience through the campaign instead of the other way around? 00:35:02.425 --> 00:35:04.614 I think some of that is possible. 00:35:04.614 --> 00:35:17.416 I think if you were running a tabletop board game campaign, you can come in with virtually no

existing audience and there are such rabid supporters desperate to back every single game that launches. 00:35:17.416 --> 00:35:21.255 You might be able to create an audience from almost nothing. 00:35:21.255 --> 00:35:23.030 I would say that's not true. 00:35:23.030 --> 00:35:33.692 Right now, in the publishing category, what we see is that an average publishing campaign is getting about 30% of their backings from the Kickstarter ecosystem. 00:35:33.692 --> 00:35:43.494 As you know, we track that in your dashboard so you can see the work that you're doing versus the work that is like our value prop, like what we are bringing to you. 00:35:43.494 --> 00:35:46.346 So I usually you know 30% that's not nothing. 00:35:46.346 --> 00:35:51.146 That's pretty excellent to grow your audience by 30%, but it is definitely not everything. 00:35:51.146 --> 00:35:52.190 Like if you have I. 00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:55.047 I mean it also depends what it is that you're trying to do. 00:35:55.047 --> 00:36:00.748 If you have a very modest campaign with low goals, you could kind of come here from nothing. 00:36:00.847 --> 00:36:05.438 But tech startup works best in publishing by having an amplifying effect like we. 00:36:05.438 --> 00:36:07.331 Our algorithm works on attention. 00:36:07.331 --> 00:36:12.871 You need you know if it sees that a lot of people are clicking, backing, commenting, following, etc. 00:36:12.871 --> 00:36:14.311 That's a signal that like oh, people like this, let's show it to if it sees that a lot of people are clicking, backing, commenting, following, et cetera. 00:36:14.311 --> 00:36:18.597 That's a signal that like oh, people like this, let's show it to more and more people. 00:36:18.597 --> 00:36:33.018 If you don't have that early signal, if you can't bring anybody on board, it's not so likely that you'll get the visibility to like completely fund from, just you know, native Kickstarter backers. 00:36:33.398 --> 00:36:34.240 That makes total sense. 00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:36.244 It's kind of like you know native Kickstarter backers. 00:36:36.244 --> 00:36:37.786 That makes total sense. 00:36:37.786 --> 00:36:47.427 It's kind of like you know when you go to TikTok and if you don't get any people watching or liking your commenting in the first like whatever five, ten minutes, it's very likely that that video is not going to go very far because you don't have the kind of traction to get it moving. 00:36:47.427 --> 00:36:48.731 So that makes total sense. 00:36:48.731 --> 00:36:50.195 That's interesting. 00:36:50.195 --> 00:36:50.976 Okay. 00:36:50.976 --> 00:36:55.994 So what's something surprising that can catch Kickstarter's eye, something that authors wouldn't necessarily realize mattered? 00:36:56.835 --> 00:36:58.918 Yeah, I mean Kickstarter's eye. 00:36:58.918 --> 00:37:03.159 I suppose there's that's not exactly a monolithic thing, I don't. 00:37:03.159 --> 00:37:08.913 I don't think authors don't realize that it matters, but I think your project image is really important. 00:37:08.913 --> 00:37:10.235 You know it's. 00:37:10.235 --> 00:37:17.851 I I would say in the six years from when I got here to now, people know this lesson much more clearly. 00:37:17.851 --> 00:37:23.286 I remember when I was interviewing for the job I mean again, I was looking at journalism projects but I was like what are these people doing? 00:37:23.286 --> 00:37:25.170 None of this is appealing at all. 00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:26.132 I would not back that up. 00:37:26.494 --> 00:37:32.994 But yeah, I think you know a good piece of advice is like look at your campaign on your phone. 00:37:32.994 --> 00:37:39.876 All you're going to see is the title, subtitle, project image, maybe like one sentence from your campaign story. 00:37:39.876 --> 00:37:46.518 And I think you want to know that with just those elements you've like really enticed people. 00:37:46.518 --> 00:37:50.436 You know that like your project image is like bright and colorful. 00:37:50.436 --> 00:37:55.387 It's not overlaid with like so much text that when it's little is going to be hard to read. 00:37:55.387 --> 00:38:06.891 You've got like some interesting keywords in your like main elements, maybe a little, you know, a teaser, as you're like opening paragraphs, because that's all you're going to get from a lot of people. 00:38:06.891 --> 00:38:08.217 It's, in fact, more than you'll get. 00:38:08.498 --> 00:38:16.418 Many people will just see the project image, scroll by on a search page or, you know, on a social platform or something like that. 00:38:16.418 --> 00:38:26.856 So, like, just really really make sure that those elements working together are going to like grab people and draw them right in and that doesn't mean to do too much with your project image. 00:38:26.856 --> 00:38:43.309 That's the other thing that I see with, like, the project image will have, you know, the cover image, a mock-up of like a book, a paperback, a hardcover and a tablet, also the tagline, like you know, written across it, like so and like a you know it's all. 00:38:43.309 --> 00:38:45.675 So not much that's confusing. 00:38:45.675 --> 00:39:01.248 That will have the opposite effect, I think, like a beautiful photo, like the image on your cover, like your book mock-up, sitting in an interesting with a border, like I don't know things, like I mean as ever look at what other people are doing and figure out what your version of that is. 00:39:01.510 --> 00:39:05.849 You know, you can scroll a search page and just see, like well, which are the ones that jump out to me. 00:39:05.849 --> 00:39:07.474 What can I replicate about that? 00:39:07.474 --> 00:39:08.076 For my work? 00:39:08.704 --> 00:39:09.485 That makes total sense. 00:39:09.485 --> 00:39:21.052 Okay, so this is a complete side note question, because what you said just kind of made me think of something when you're talking about SEO and making sure that you know the words and the language and

stuff, so not necessarily the image is enticing and makes sense. 00:39:21.052 --> 00:39:27.898 I know for me I used ChatGPT to be able to try to like hone in really onto, like what are the words that are going to matter most for my campaign? 00:39:27.898 --> 00:39:30.360 And I know that you guys have an AI. 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:32.501 Oh gosh, what's the thing called the AI thing? 00:39:32.561 --> 00:39:33.362 I know that you guys have an AI. 00:39:33.362 --> 00:39:34.382 Oh gosh, what's the thing called the? 00:39:34.402 --> 00:39:34.561 AI thing. 00:39:34.561 --> 00:39:40.530 Yeah, the disclosure at the bottom, and I know that from my experience it's not an issue to use AI, you just need to disclose it right. 00:39:40.530 --> 00:39:54.657 I had a friend who I think she did some AI images and her campaign got like shut down and then she because she just hadn't checked the box- she didn't realize that her images is on the campaign, and so for me, I'm like that's so cool that you don't number one. 00:39:54.697 --> 00:40:07.496 You don't mind that we're using AI to be able to help us to write better copy, because I think a lot of authors were good at telling stories or were good at doing that sort of thing, not so great at being copywriters, yeah. 00:40:07.496 --> 00:40:11.014 So what is your personal take on that whole thing? 00:40:11.014 --> 00:40:13.713 Should authors be paying more attention? 00:40:13.713 --> 00:40:15.568 Do they make sure they click that button? 00:40:15.568 --> 00:40:17.152 What has to happen there? 00:40:17.534 --> 00:40:23.411 Yeah, I mean, I actually I will politely decline from sharing my personal opinions about AI. 00:40:23.411 --> 00:40:25.456 I don't think that helps anybody. 00:40:25.456 --> 00:40:32.094 I will say I do feel good about Kickstarter's policy because to me, it's one of radical transparency. 00:40:32.094 --> 00:40:55.016 Like I, I think what matters Kickstarter is about connecting you with your supporters, and so if your use of AI is enhancing your product in a way that is going to make your supporters really happy and they're going to be delighted to back it because of or despite that, I think that's wonderful, like we are in the business of supporting creativity in all of its forms, so I do really like that. 00:40:55.016 --> 00:41:09.376 I mean, I yeah, I said I was going to refrain I have concerns, you know, about the sort of like we are to me, the sort of like fundamental sin of AI, which is like that it's built largely on stolen creative work. 00:41:10.166 --> 00:41:11.269 I don't think we can fix that now. 00:41:11.269 --> 00:41:19.545 You know like that happened, and so that's that's what gives me varying degrees of pause depending on which systems, in which ways, people are using it. 00:41:19.545 --> 00:41:32.335 But again, this is not about me, this is about you and your audience, and so, yes, I think everyone should use that disclosure, both so as not to run afoul of like Kickstarter's rules,

but also so that nobody is surprised, you know. 00:41:32.335 --> 00:41:40.449 You know you don't want your backers to think you're doing things one way and then find out that it's another way and feel tricked or, you know, misled. 00:41:40.449 --> 00:41:42.635 So, yeah, I think absolutely. 00:41:42.635 --> 00:41:45.789 And you know, if you're using AI, be proud of it, exactly as you just were. 00:41:45.789 --> 00:41:47.474 I think there's nothing wrong with that. 00:41:47.474 --> 00:41:50.550 Nobody should be doing it like furtively or strangely. 00:41:50.550 --> 00:41:56.692 Talk about what you're doing, why you're doing it, how it has helped you, and let your supporters be on board with that. 00:41:57.094 --> 00:42:01.494 Yeah, I totally agree, and I think it's really, it's really important that you do pay attention to that too. 00:42:01.494 --> 00:42:08.108 So, like, if you're whether it's your images, or whether you're using it for, you know, marketing texts or whatever it's not you're not going to get penalized for it. 00:42:08.108 --> 00:42:10.052 It's just just a disclosure and that's all it is. 00:42:10.052 --> 00:42:10.755 It's so good. 00:42:11.175 --> 00:42:11.737 It would be more. 00:42:11.737 --> 00:42:17.972 You would get more penalized if you didn't disclose it and then people found out later and felt like you had not been truthful with them. 00:42:18.494 --> 00:42:19.737 Yeah, I totally agree with that. 00:42:19.737 --> 00:42:26.614 Okay, so what energetic shifts have you noticed in campaigns that either lose momentum or come roaring back even stronger? 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:34.373 Yeah, I think this question is broadly about the sort of like plateau period in the middle which happens to everyone. 00:42:34.373 --> 00:42:38.931 Even Brandon Sanderson had some periods where it was a little slower. 00:42:38.931 --> 00:42:42.086 He was only earning a couple million dollars a day, right, yeah. 00:42:42.086 --> 00:42:46.445 So what do I have to say about that? 00:42:46.445 --> 00:42:59.443 I mean, I think people should plan for it, be aware that that's going to happen and like that's okay, it's not your fault, but really think about what you can do during that time to keep the momentum going. 00:42:59.764 --> 00:43:02.132 We touched briefly on the idea of stretch goals. 00:43:02.132 --> 00:43:03.135 This is a common mistake. 00:43:03.135 --> 00:43:06.025 I see that people lay out all their stretch goals right on the page. 00:43:06.025 --> 00:43:08.891 I can see if you're like really excited about those things. 00:43:08.891 --> 00:43:16.668 You just want everyone to know, but I think you rob yourself of the opportunity of reviewing them, announcing them, talking about why and getting people excited. 00:43:16.668 --> 00:43:19.583 That's a great thing to do during that plateau period. 00:43:19.583 --> 00:43:22.070 You know telling people, hey, remember this. 00:43:22.070 --> 00:43:23.472 Like guess what? 00:43:23.472 --> 00:43:24.713 We've gotten to this point? 00:43:24.713 --> 00:43:29.356 We're going to do this other thing, help us get there, or send them quizzes like we talked about. 00:43:29.356 --> 00:43:31.117 Would you like us to do this or that? 00:43:31.117 --> 00:43:31.336 You know? 00:43:31.336 --> 00:43:31.817 Blah, blah, blah. 00:43:31.817 --> 00:43:39.293 That is not to say, by the way, you should not thoroughly budget for and understand all the stretch goals you're offering before you launch. 00:43:39.293 --> 00:43:44.652 You must do that, but you don't need to tell everybody everything when you first start. 00:43:45.460 --> 00:43:47.447 I'm trying to think of some other tactics I've seen. 00:43:47.447 --> 00:44:03.985 One cute thing that I used to see more in journalism is like if you have someone with deep pockets who is going to happy to invest $1,000 or $5,000 in your campaign, you can sort of rig up a little DIY matching campaign in the midst of your campaign. 00:44:03.985 --> 00:44:17.532 You can say, for the next three days, an angel investor will be matching all donations up to $1,000 or $5,000 or whatever to give people that like real good feeling of like your money is counting double at this moment. 00:44:17.532 --> 00:44:18.702 I think that's a cute thing. 00:44:18.702 --> 00:44:35.628 You know, the middle period is a great time to go on somebody's wonderful podcast or like get you know on an Instagram live or a TikTok feature or review something like that, which are also, you know, ways to galvanize other audiences and kind of bring them to your work. 00:44:35.929 --> 00:44:41.311 So I don't know I'm not sure if I'm still answering this question in the way that you asked it, but make a lot. 00:44:41.311 --> 00:45:07.228 You know, think hard about what you can do, um, to kind of keep the enthusiasm going, counteract that bit of a slump or, you know, to come roaring back in your final week, uh, when the sort of now or nothing, now or never, all or nothing, do or die really kicks in and you can like marshal your efforts there do you see like a, an organic surge at the end from kickstarter's perspective, like people who have been watching for a while and then they're finally like, oh crap, it's time. 00:45:07.710 --> 00:45:09.172 Totally, yeah, people. 00:45:09.172 --> 00:45:22.342 Also, all of your followers, will get a Kickstarter email 48 hours before the campaign ends, and I believe that people who have been following since the pre-launch phase will get another reminder email at the eight hour mark before you close. 00:45:22.342 --> 00:45:24.204 And also, you know you're, exactly as you said, at the eight hour mark before you close. 00:45:24.204 --> 00:45:28.668 And also you know, exactly as you said, like your marketing ramps up, your outreach gets more high. 00:45:28.668 --> 00:45:29.949 Key, this is it. 00:45:29.949 --> 00:45:30.969 This is your last chance. 00:45:30.969 --> 00:45:33.813 Yep, yeah, that does tend to drive backings, for sure.

00:45:34.273 --> 00:45:34.853 Yeah, for sure. 00:45:34.853 --> 00:45:35.574 I like that a lot. 00:45:35.574 --> 00:45:41.844 Okay, where are we at with time, because I have a special thing I'd love to do with you, but I don't want to keep you too long, are you cool? 00:45:41.844 --> 00:45:42.945 Like we could do it rapid fire? 00:45:42.945 --> 00:45:54.143 I have this thing, like a quick little segment that I would love to throw some fictional Kickstarter setups and, just like you, give like a really quick description of, like, what you would want to do to improve it, if you're, if you're, I love it, I love it. 00:45:54.163 --> 00:45:55.789 That sounds so fun, okay cool. 00:45:55.969 --> 00:45:56.932 Okay, so the first one. 00:45:56.932 --> 00:46:00.304 You see a memoir author running their first Kickstarter. 00:46:00.304 --> 00:46:03.092 They're offering one-on-one coaching calls as the reward. 00:46:06.161 --> 00:46:07.443 What should they do to improve that? 00:46:07.443 --> 00:46:10.371 I mean, I kind of love that, but also you can sort of like fragment it. 00:46:10.371 --> 00:46:12.842 You could do group sessions, you could do sort of like. 00:46:12.842 --> 00:46:17.271 You know other kinds of like interactive elements. 00:46:17.271 --> 00:46:19.260 Wait, so what'd you say? 00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.847 It was a memoirist In this example. 00:46:21.847 --> 00:46:23.211 What's the memoir sort of about? 00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:25.320 You don't get that information. 00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:27.583 It's just a memoir author running their first Kickstarter. 00:46:27.603 --> 00:46:32.527 Yeah, I mean if that fits with the theme of the memoir. 00:46:32.527 --> 00:46:43.722 I mean, if it's a memoir like you know how I cleaned up my hot mess of a life, then people on like you know recovery or like things like that, I think that totally makes sense. 00:46:43.722 --> 00:46:48.452 If it's a memoir of like you know learning to cook better, I mean, I don't know, that could anyway, yes, great. 00:46:48.452 --> 00:46:49.201 I think that's fine. 00:46:49.201 --> 00:46:57.168 I think one-on-one coaching sessions are great, provided that you have a skill set that people might want to be coached and buy. 00:46:57.168 --> 00:46:57.630 Yeah. 00:46:57.769 --> 00:46:59.956 Yeah, okay, okay. 00:46:59.956 --> 00:47:01.318 So how about this one? 00:47:01.318 --> 00:47:10.239 An author launching their first book in a fantasy series is announcing six ambitious stretch goals before the campaign, even before the funds are hitting their baseline. 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:11.722 Perhaps this was based off of me. 00:47:13.585 --> 00:47:19.266 You know, yeah, I mean I would, as we've discussed, certainly I would keep those, hold those back. 00:47:19.266 --> 00:47:27.009 I think also, especially for a first time creator, it can just confuse people about like well, how much money do you need to like do this whole thing? 00:47:27.009 --> 00:47:34.369 Also, it might shake people's trust if you know you like are new at this and you're like an emerging writer and you don't have a strong audience yet. 00:47:34.369 --> 00:47:43.164 Like if you're coming here for $50,000 and you know I click on your campaign and you have six backers, that doesn't make me feel like super great. 00:47:43.164 --> 00:47:51.927 That like you're there and that you know and also kind of like do you understand what kind of time and effort it's going to take to like really make this stuff you know. 00:47:51.927 --> 00:47:53.793 So, yeah, I would say all of that. 00:47:53.793 --> 00:47:57.126 Those are not excellent signals, Not again to say that it can't be done. 00:47:57.126 --> 00:48:01.182 I think Brandon Sanderson's first campaign weighs $10 million. 00:48:01.182 --> 00:48:04.349 Sherilyn Kenyon raised a million bucks her first time here. 00:48:04.349 --> 00:48:06.253 Cassie Clare $10 million. 00:48:06.253 --> 00:48:08.878 Sherilyn Kenyon raised a million bucks her first time here. 00:48:08.878 --> 00:48:09.480 Cassie Clare similarly. 00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:13.106 But you know we can't all be Brandon or Cassie or Sherilyn. 00:48:13.106 --> 00:48:14.914 Yeah, they could have built-in audiences there that are fairly large. 00:48:14.914 --> 00:48:17.744 Okay, real quick question on those stretch goals, though that just reminded me. 00:48:17.744 --> 00:48:24.382 When you announce the stretch goals, do you recommend having them lower on the page, like as you're building the page, or should they go up at the top when the campaign is running? 00:48:24.382 --> 00:48:25.827 Lower on the page, like as you're building the? 00:48:25.847 --> 00:48:27.452 the page or should they go up at the top when the campaign is running? 00:48:27.452 --> 00:48:28.615 That's not something we could a b test, to be honest. 00:48:28.615 --> 00:48:32.204 So I don't have like a strong uh, I don't think. 00:48:32.204 --> 00:48:36.431 I think I would say, yeah, I don't have a strong preference. 00:48:36.431 --> 00:48:53.230 If you do decide to put them at the top when the campaign is ending, I'd move it back down again because, remember, people will keep landing on that page forever and if the first thing they see is about stretch goals, that might be like too inside baseball for them to really understand what's happening here. 00:48:53.230 --> 00:48:56.784 But I certainly see the wisdom of putting it at the top while the campaign is running. 00:48:56.784 --> 00:48:57.766 That makes sense. 00:48:57.967 --> 00:48:58.409 That makes sense. 00:48:58.409 --> 00:49:09.414 Okay, last one, An indie author with a gorgeous campaign visuals, well-written descriptions, professional video, all that stuff but has almost no backer interaction or community building during the campaign itself. 00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:15.342 What should they do to get that going? 00:49:15.342 --> 00:49:16.184 Yeah, interact, talk to your backers. 00:49:16.184 --> 00:49:26.333 I'm always shocked when I see, especially

like fairly campaigns that are going fairly well that have no backer updates, like why would you not take advantage of that line to your biggest fans? 00:49:26.333 --> 00:49:28.581 That's crazy, yeah. 00:49:28.581 --> 00:49:30.485 So I mean, what would I tell them? 00:49:30.485 --> 00:49:31.266 Do the thing? 00:49:31.266 --> 00:49:36.563 Yeah, designed to help you interact with your audience, interact with them. 00:49:36.563 --> 00:49:40.253 Why would you relinquish that incredible, amazing opportunity? 00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:40.800 So good. 00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:43.710 Or like to reach out, like you said, to other people's campaign, or not. 00:49:44.300 --> 00:49:45.987 Well, I guess other people's campaigns too. 00:49:46.208 --> 00:49:47.030 Yeah, for sure. 00:49:47.030 --> 00:49:49.036 Um, I reached out to Russell Nolte. 00:49:49.036 --> 00:49:50.661 I think he has a campaign that's running right now. 00:49:50.722 --> 00:49:52.065 That's very similar to mine. 00:49:52.065 --> 00:49:54.371 I love his how to thrive as an artist. 00:49:54.371 --> 00:49:55.724 Yes, I totally back that. 00:49:55.965 --> 00:50:05.349 That was so good let me see if he hasn't responded to me though I did it through the kickstarter like platform, and he has not responded um, so two things. 00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:06.833 You can email me and I will. 00:50:06.833 --> 00:50:08.702 I'll send it to him and be like buddy. 00:50:08.702 --> 00:50:09.085 What? 00:50:09.085 --> 00:50:10.009 What are we doing here? 00:50:10.009 --> 00:50:12.358 I'm, yeah, I've known russell for a while. 00:50:12.358 --> 00:50:20.242 I would love that, but I'll also say just to the listeners this campaign is live through june 8th, so it will still be up when you are listening to this. 00:50:20.242 --> 00:50:25.152 Probably, how to thrive as a writer in a capitalist dystopia this is russell. 00:50:25.152 --> 00:50:27.561 Something like his 45th campaign. 00:50:27.561 --> 00:50:28.483 That's crazy. 00:50:28.483 --> 00:50:28.923 Yeah, he's. 00:50:28.923 --> 00:50:32.291 I'm a huge fan of that I am too so good. 00:50:32.510 --> 00:50:35.045 I saw that because it was obviously being recommended with mine too. 00:50:35.045 --> 00:50:36.228 I was like what is this? 00:50:36.228 --> 00:50:37.835 I need this book nice. 00:50:37.835 --> 00:50:44.059 Oh yeah, I'm a backer, absolutely me too okay, two more questions and then we'll wrap up here today. 00:50:44.059 --> 00:50:48.043 So if you could, could talk to an author that's standing at the starting line. 00:50:48.043 --> 00:50:49.608 Maybe they're terrified, but they're ready. 00:50:49.608 --> 00:50:55.681 What would you say, not just to coach them, but to recode the relationship with visibility and asking for support through? 00:50:55.702 --> 00:50:56.182 Kickstarter. 00:50:56.182 --> 00:50:58.007 See, you know that I'm a life coach. 00:50:58.007 --> 00:51:01.262 You've phrased this question in a way to, like, exemplify. 00:51:01.282 --> 00:51:03.706 I must have, I must have? 00:51:04.365 --> 00:51:12.356 Okay, well, so first of all, I do tell, especially first-time authors if you are equal parts thrilled and terrified when you press that launch button, you are probably doing it right. 00:51:12.356 --> 00:51:15.603 I'm not here to say you could not have any fear around this. 00:51:15.603 --> 00:51:21.231 It is very healthy and natural to have it, know this already. 00:51:21.231 --> 00:51:33.523 But, like when I certainly when I started here, there is like a persistent belief that Kickstarter is akin to like charity, which that's like no shade, to GoFundMe and like other platforms that are designed in that way. 00:51:33.523 --> 00:51:36.471 But like you're not begging for money. 00:51:36.831 --> 00:51:45.489 When you run a Kickstarter campaign, the reframe that I've been preaching forever is you're inviting people to join you on a creative journey. 00:51:45.489 --> 00:51:50.788 You're taking this crazy journey and you're saying, like, let's do this together. 00:51:50.788 --> 00:51:52.719 Hey, you know what we need more of in life? 00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:57.570 Community collaboration, rising tides, lifting all the boats. 00:51:57.570 --> 00:52:07.302 Like you're going to get rewarded along the way for being an early adopter of like my creative heart and helping me to like make this thing together. 00:52:07.302 --> 00:52:21.326 I love that as a concept and if you can communicate that, you know, if you can believe that in your own heart and communicate it to your supporters, how are they not going to be so excited to get on board? 00:52:21.606 --> 00:52:22.288 I love that. 00:52:22.288 --> 00:52:32.005 I think that it's such a huge reframe because it's so different from what the indie author like main setup and the way that everything has been run for so long in that dystopian capitalistic society. 00:52:32.005 --> 00:52:34.514 It's been trained like. 00:52:34.514 --> 00:52:39.307 It's been training us for a very long time now, since I mean it's not super long because indie authorship is only what? 00:52:39.307 --> 00:52:48.547 15-ish years old, but still it's like we're sitting at this point where it's like we want that collaboration, we want the community, and I love that. 00:52:48.547 --> 00:52:56.925 This is like how we get to shift not only our relationship to our readers, but like our relationship to receiving for the cool thing that we just created. 00:52:56.925 --> 00:53:00.231 Totally, I love that it's so good. 00:53:01.092 --> 00:53:01.740 Okay, ariana. 00:53:01.740 --> 00:53:05.512 Where can listeners go to find out more about you and about Kickstarter for authors? 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:32.168 at Oriana B-K-L-Y-N on, I think, all the platforms, but I'm a lot less responsive on them than I used to be, just like protecting my own creative hearts. 00:53:32.168 --> 00:53:36.003 You know, kickstarter has a ton of resources for creators. 00:53:36.003 --> 00:53:42.025 We actually just rolled

out a whole new creator resource hub, kickstartercom slash creators. 00:53:42.025 --> 00:53:45.552 Tons of like education and worksheets. 00:53:45.552 --> 00:53:48.530 There's also a publishing creator tips page. 00:53:48.530 --> 00:53:54.329 I'm just going to get you that link Kickstarter dot com slash creators slash publishing. 00:53:54.329 --> 00:53:58.871 That's got many videos of my face doing talks much like this one. 00:53:59.300 --> 00:54:04.353 Also like articles there's there's a budgeting article written by Russell Nolte, who we just talked about. 00:54:04.353 --> 00:54:10.547 There's an article by Dana Clare, who inkfluence about the allure of special editions and why you might do one here. 00:54:10.547 --> 00:54:15.467 There's stuff about planning your audience, about building your mailing list, um, all sorts of things like that. 00:54:15.467 --> 00:54:20.704 So and you know we've already talked about I mean, obviously you should be listening to podcasts like this one. 00:54:20.704 --> 00:54:23.449 You should be, uh, on the oh I, I shifted. 00:54:23.449 --> 00:54:31.960 I'm no longer answering where to find me, I'm just more answering how to find resources on Kickstarter yeah, it's both, it's all good join that Facebook group. 00:54:32.021 --> 00:54:36.409 Find a discord community, find a reddit thread like talk to other people. 00:54:36.971 --> 00:54:44.543 Um, yeah, yeah, I think that's go to conferences and say hi, oh, for sure, if you ever see me in the wild, please come say hi. 00:54:44.603 --> 00:54:50.632 I've had people email me and be like we were both at the same thing last week, but I didn't want to bother Bother. 00:54:50.632 --> 00:54:52.563 It is both my job and my pleasure. 00:54:52.563 --> 00:54:55.329 You can tell I like to talk to people. 00:54:55.329 --> 00:54:57.420 It feeds my soul, so please help me. 00:54:57.440 --> 00:55:00.163 Help you I can say from experience. 00:55:00.163 --> 00:55:02.545 She always has a line out the door wanting to say hi to her. 00:55:02.565 --> 00:55:03.927 So definitely take advantage. 00:55:05.228 --> 00:55:06.268 It's so good. 00:55:06.268 --> 00:55:09.271 Well, Oriana, thank you so much for being here today. 00:55:09.271 --> 00:55:11.853 I really appreciate your time and your energy and enthusiasm. 00:55:11.853 --> 00:55:12.954 It's so much fun to talk to you. 00:55:13.396 --> 00:55:14.896 This has been such an absolute delight. 00:55:18.811 --> 00:55:20.519 I really appreciate you having me over. 00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:23.422 I want to extend a huge thank you to Oriana Lickert for joining me today. 00:55:23.422 --> 00:55:31.963 Her insights into Kickstarter's ecosystem, especially for authors and creators like us, are so valuable and, honestly, this conversation really couldn't have come at a more aligned time. 00:55:31.963 --> 00:55:42.021 As you may know, I recently wrapped up the Kickstarter campaign for Write your Reality, my latest nonfiction book that is blending quantum manifestation with author strategy. 00:55:42.021 --> 00:55:49.909 It's not just a book, it's a movement for authors who think differently, feel deeply and are ready to call in aligned success without hustle. 00:55:49.909 --> 00:55:51.192 And guess what? 00:55:51.192 --> 00:55:52.581 The journey isn't over. 00:55:52.581 --> 00:55:56.661 If you missed the campaign during its live run, you can still sneak in the back door. 00:55:56.661 --> 00:56:09.032 Late pledges are open through mid-June and that means you still have time to grab some of the incredible bundles, meditations and even lifetime access to courses and memberships that I've built specifically for authors like you. 00:56:09.032 --> 00:56:20.210 Just head over to authorrevolutionorg forward slash kickstarter to check out the campaign or if you want the full behind the scenes scoop on this podcast episode head over to authorrevolutionorg. 00:56:20.291 --> 00:56:22.141 Forward slash 272. 00:56:23.405 --> 00:56:30.320 Again, thank you so much for listening and remember you're not just here to write books, you're here to write your reality. 00:56:31.041 --> 00:56:34.384 So go forth and start your author revolution. 00:56:34.384 --> 00:57:00.219 Thank you.