Jakson Introducing Western Australia’s New Chief Scientist Professor Sriram täydellinen litterointi

and I think most scientists in the room will understand. 00:04:48.326 --> 00:04:51.242 Usually the thing you can't explain is what actually hooks you. 00:04:51.242 --> 00:04:54.374 It keeps you awake and you see, that's where most opportunities. 00:04:54.374 --> 00:04:57.564 The straightforward line is obvious it's not as exciting. 00:04:58.608 --> 00:04:59.730 I would agree with that entirely. 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:15.208 So West Australians, speaking as a West Australian born and bred, are renowned for our I'm going to say this politely independent spirit and our rivalry, fierce rivalry, with the East Coast and I think, hopefully well I'm assuming you have realised that that is alive and well. 00:05:15.208 --> 00:05:24.300 In the first three months or so that you've been in the role, have you had any particular experience of that or any reflections on you thus far of that or any reflections? 00:05:24.322 --> 00:05:24.641 on your thus far. 00:05:24.641 --> 00:05:32.562 I think that rivalry or feeling, I guess in some ways is fair, in other ways is probably not Fair, as in. 00:05:32.562 --> 00:05:45.043 I think in a lot of funding programs there is an inherent disadvantage being far removed from discussions, decision making and strategies being set out for funding, and I think being part of those conversations. 00:05:45.043 --> 00:05:47.571 In how schemes are designed, priorities are defined, are key. 00:05:47.571 --> 00:05:53.291 Obviously, in certain funding schemes with 10% of the population, WA gets 2.5%. 00:05:53.291 --> 00:05:55.288 That, surely, is not just down to quality. 00:05:57.100 --> 00:05:58.648 We are a risk-averse country. 00:05:58.648 --> 00:06:07.833 Every peer review process is risk-averse and so when it gets to the fine margins, people are going to choose a known devil over an unknown angel is what I say. 00:06:07.833 --> 00:06:11.266 So the people here need to create more visibility. 00:06:11.266 --> 00:06:20.259 So I think so, flipping it around, I always say look at what you can do for your country rather than what the country can do for you. 00:06:20.259 --> 00:06:21.805 Principle applies to everything. 00:06:21.805 --> 00:06:25.963 So what can we do better so that we are not at the disadvantage? 00:06:25.963 --> 00:06:40.605 So it's raising the profile of what we communicate, what we do, getting more people on peer review panels, ensuring those work robustly, bringing more people to the site to see the great work going on because, like I said, most people are not aware. 00:06:40.605 --> 00:06:53.656 So for every event or conference we run in Perth, combining a lot of site tools to take people to show them activity within research labs, within startups, I think it just raises the understanding. 00:06:53.956 --> 00:06:55.701 Oh my god, I didn't even realize all this is there. 00:06:55.701 --> 00:07:02.923 The close related one is generally with how busy and intense careers are. 00:07:02.923 --> 00:07:05.430 People don't have time to sit and promote what they do. 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:10.988 Universities in that regard are pretty weak. 00:07:10.988 --> 00:07:17.151 Their marketing is focused on student recruitment, not in showcasing the outcomes created by their research community. 00:07:17.151 --> 00:07:22.233 So unless people have other access, they really don't know what's happening. 00:07:22.983 --> 00:07:24.937 Yeah, so it feels a little bit like a tax. 00:07:24.937 --> 00:07:29.891 I don't know about what everyone else feels about the geographical isolation is kind of a bit of a tax. 00:07:29.891 --> 00:07:37.302 Have you had any brain waves, other than the things that you've described, about how we can pay that tax on it? 00:07:37.302 --> 00:07:42.363 West Australians not solely bear the brunt of that tax, or do you think it just the responsibility sits with us? 00:07:43.086 --> 00:07:50.586 I think it could be a combination With funding agencies having accountability in review processes such that the bias doesn't exist. 00:07:50.586 --> 00:08:07.870 Say, for example, the National Health and Medical Research Council looking at the assessor pool to ensure there's a diversity of assessors not everyone from the East Coast would matter, and I think there were elements which were missing. 00:08:07.870 --> 00:08:10.514 Nhmrc have taken on board feedback already. 00:08:10.514 --> 00:08:11.595 They're going to revise it. 00:08:11.595 --> 00:08:18.949 They're going to create more accountability and visibility within the assessor pool, so people can't just give a random score, say things and walk away. 00:08:18.949 --> 00:08:22.288 So I think there are things you can do centrally to fix it too. 00:08:23.721 --> 00:08:24.786 So I've already touched on that. 00:08:24.786 --> 00:08:33.967 You started in June this year, so I want to ask how much time you're spending on the ground here on WA and how are you enjoying the FIFO lifestyle? 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:35.311 Really well. 00:08:35.311 --> 00:08:39.307 So I do typically three days a week. 00:08:39.307 --> 00:08:44.783 Here one important aspect is emphasizing the national connections. 00:08:44.783 --> 00:08:54.629 So in a month I'm probably here three weeks of the month, but the other week I often spend in Canberra or Sydney driving our agenda. 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:59.881 Because, like I said, unless we fix some of the central policies, we can keep talking among ourselves. 00:08:59.881 --> 00:09:01.206 We wouldn't see the change. 00:09:01.206 --> 00:09:08.202 One of the other big coordination opportunities is working with across all the chief scientists for the different states. 00:09:08.202 --> 00:09:16.073 Australia is too small for the states to compete against each other or we harm ourselves competing. 00:09:16.073 --> 00:09:20.190 There's bigger opportunity to collaborate, complement each other to actually succeed. 00:09:20.190 --> 00:09:23.607 Everyone doesn't need an MRNA facility, for example. 00:09:23.607

--> 00:09:25.847 There are different ways to tackle it. 00:09:25.847 --> 00:09:30.000 So I think that's just one topic, but in many fields it applies. 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:34.746 So I'm trying to also use the Forum of the Australian Chiefs of Scientists to coordinate better. 00:09:34.746 --> 00:09:47.312 We've already had traction and maybe with the current cohort all of them are actually excited about actually doing it better, picking different topics we pursue and bring everyone on board. 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:58.309 So tell us about your vision for science and technology in Western Australia and, particularly, given the topic for tonight, the role of biomedical sector in this. 00:09:59.142 --> 00:10:00.046 That's a big question. 00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:01.085 It is a big question. 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:03.519 I'll keep my answer short and then you can go a bit deeper. 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:05.562 No, no, no, you can talk for as long as you like. 00:10:05.582 --> 00:10:16.240 So one of the things is the state government did announce a 10-year science and technology plan in November last year and that was a signal of key priorities. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:25.408 The big opportunity is how we implement those priorities, how we use that to break down the typical silos between university industry. 00:10:25.408 --> 00:10:27.750 We shouldn't even be talking about these right. 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:34.094 We should be focusing on what is the grand challenge we are trying to solve as a state, as a nation, and bring the right people in to do it. 00:10:34.094 --> 00:10:37.797 So I think the implementation around that is big opportunities. 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:54.248 In the life sciences and I'm going to say life sciences taking both medical and agriculture, because for me the latter is a key strength in WA which is often overlooked While the medical there are strong players and emerging players. 00:10:54.248 --> 00:11:00.331 I think in both of them I think there needs to be better coordination. 00:11:00.331 --> 00:11:06.251 In some of them we miss out on leading big bids because there's a bit of coordination lacking. 00:11:06.251 --> 00:11:12.461 Whether it's a CRC or a big ARC center, we are partnering on all of them but we're not leading them. 00:11:12.461 --> 00:11:13.565 But there is potential too. 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:32.532 The other big opportunity is shared facilities, so every lab or every company trying to set up small piece of equipment which they use one day a week and relying on government support to do it is not the best use of time, money or strategy. 00:11:32.532 --> 00:11:39.451 So the more we can actually create shared infrastructure which people use on demand and as demand grows we can actually grow that. 00:11:39.451 --> 00:11:42.128 I think those are the big opportunities for us as a state. 00:11:42.128 --> 00:11:46.126 So that sits across sectors, but particularly in medtech. 00:11:46.126 --> 00:11:56.710 When you have a wave of startups coming through, instead of trying to give infrastructure grants of half a million to two million to everyone, you invest it in a shared facility and have vouchers for them to access it. 00:11:56.710 --> 00:11:58.225 I think that would be a better way to go. 00:11:59.341 --> 00:12:03.293 So those are really quite practical and pragmatic visions. 00:12:03.293 --> 00:12:12.830 But if you think big and like, do you have any kind of ambition or vision for what you think it might be, say, three years time? 00:12:12.830 --> 00:12:16.447 Is there something in particular that you'd really like to look back and go? 00:12:16.447 --> 00:12:22.524 Yes, we, you know, cracked that nut or resolved that challenge or achieved that. 00:12:24.187 --> 00:12:30.427 I think the real win would be if we invest and establish capabilities which are not on a short-term timeframe. 00:12:30.427 --> 00:12:33.547 We shouldn't chase buzzwords. 00:12:33.547 --> 00:12:37.345 It has to be underpinning capabilities which will serve us whatever the new trend is. 00:12:37.345 --> 00:12:42.490 I mean, if you take AI, for example, that's a buzzword. 00:12:42.490 --> 00:12:49.124 It used to be called deep learning, it used to be called deep learning, it used to be called machine learning, neural networks, signal processing it's all the same thing. 00:12:49.124 --> 00:12:55.563 It's just advancements, so I think, and it all relies on processing solid mathematics. 00:12:55.563 --> 00:13:07.768 So I think in every field there is a base capability we need and that's what we should be training our incoming talent on the potential, people on the line through vocational education and enabling that. 00:13:07.768 --> 00:13:12.030 So for me, that is really what I'm after. 00:13:12.030 --> 00:13:17.471 Anything we invest in should have that decadal horizon, not just a short term win. 00:13:19.260 --> 00:13:24.205 I think there are a lot of governance challenges in how we set these up right, because it has to be a true partnership. 00:13:24.205 --> 00:13:27.726 It shouldn't be about growing empires and control. 00:13:27.726 --> 00:13:39.961 So there has to be a model where, if there is a shared facility, there is a way for anyone to be an equal partner or a percentage partner in it, that you co-locate your capabilities and people still get to use it. 00:13:39.961 --> 00:13:45.673 The challenge often when I work a lot with industries, they just don't know what exists. 00:13:45.673 --> 00:13:47.345 They don't know who to go talk to. 00:13:47.921 --> 00:13:55.609 Yes, you have a concierge service here for the state for one sector, but even they may not know everything which exists because there's so much opaqueness in the sector. 00:13:55.609 --> 00:14:00.389 So I think sometimes breaking those silos down to create that visibility is the key. 00:14:00.389 --> 00:14:08.885 There are much better ways to govern some of the schemes which are out there, and I think it goes back to what I

was saying earlier. 00:14:08.885 --> 00:14:17.344 A lot of incentives in the system force people to think about their next big win then what is the best thing for our sector or the country? 00:14:17.344 --> 00:14:24.956 So I think changing incentives and programs so people really take a step back and look at delivering, for that could help. 00:14:24.956 --> 00:14:36.553 And those incentives lay across multiple things Grant funding, promotions, the way people have to sell themselves as an individual leader rather than an enabler. 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.765 So you've been in the role. 00:14:38.765 --> 00:14:41.615 How many days Are you keeping track of how many days? 00:14:41.634 --> 00:14:42.662 No, I'm not no you're not. 00:14:42.701 --> 00:14:47.769 I think it's less than three months, though, right, so what have you been up to in that time? 00:14:49.380 --> 00:15:05.030 I've spent time understanding the current government priorities, the current strategies out there Most of it I knew, coming into the role, but digging deep into how they're planning to roll them out and deliver, the timelines, the approaches, et cetera. 00:15:05.030 --> 00:15:19.230 Obviously being out and about seeing places, especially in topics, I am not familiar with the hidden stories which I should be shining a light on, especially in the national context. 00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:39.481 One thing I did which might interest people in the room is I brought together all the tech transfer officers of the universities and medical research institutes together in a room, challenge them on how do we exchange perceptions of ease of working together, simpler IP policies, better transfer of IP to industry. 00:15:39.481 --> 00:15:44.149 The basic principle of owning 100% of $0 is $0. 00:15:44.149 --> 00:15:48.527 So you better give away the IP and have a win for everyone. 00:15:48.527 --> 00:15:53.267 So I think some of these are like those culture change conversations. 00:15:53.267 --> 00:16:03.005 I think it's yeah, it's been a very mixed bag, so most days have been, starting from breakfast to evening, events like this. 00:16:03.005 --> 00:16:04.563 So a lot to find out. 00:16:04.583 --> 00:16:05.528 So we're working you hard. 00:16:05.528 --> 00:16:12.798 Will you continue on with that as the tech transfer kind of conversation? 00:16:12.798 --> 00:16:13.581 Is that a ongoing one? 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.024 There's a lot to do in that place. 00:16:15.024 --> 00:16:24.740 See, I think if our ambition is to harness the ideas we have and make them into products, we need a lot of momentum in it and a change in approach. 00:16:24.740 --> 00:16:29.912 And one thing I keep saying is there's no dearth of funds out there. 00:16:29.912 --> 00:16:34.249 If people think there's no money in the system, that's not true. 00:16:34.249 --> 00:16:38.868 We don't have ideas ready for money to pay for it. 00:16:38.868 --> 00:16:42.587 It's more of that readiness of our ideas. 00:16:42.587 --> 00:16:47.629 For example, there are venture funds worth 80 to 200 million being set up. 00:16:47.629 --> 00:16:48.051 Every day. 00:16:49.160 --> 00:16:54.687 I hear so many people in the networks raising money effortlessly to start investing in tech companies. 00:16:54.687 --> 00:17:00.568 There are three of them, close to $160 million, wanting to land in WA for life sciences. 00:17:00.568 --> 00:17:07.769 So it's not the access to money, it is about getting our ideas to maturity such that they are ready for that level of investment. 00:17:07.769 --> 00:17:15.727 There's a term going around quite a bit about absorptive capacity, so that absorptive capacity goes two ways. 00:17:15.727 --> 00:17:22.646 If you give an immature company five million, they're going to probably squander it and it's an investment which goes nowhere. 00:17:22.646 --> 00:17:29.670 But similarly, if you're generating so many ideas or inventions, who's absorbing it in your market? 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:35.749 If our small and medium enterprises are not ready for it, then it always has to go overseas and then we complain about it. 00:17:35.749 --> 00:17:41.887 So it is going to take time to have that culture shift and the sector to be ready. 00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:48.667 I think the challenges or gaps are very common across all the states and jurisdictions. 00:17:48.667 --> 00:17:51.840 I put them into three buckets. 00:17:51.840 --> 00:17:58.780 One is the real gap around people and their training in different areas. 00:17:58.780 --> 00:18:06.143 If I break that down further, as a country we heavily emphasize higher education unnecessarily. 00:18:06.143 --> 00:18:18.500 We sort of demean vocational education and if we need cutting-edge industries with stable production it's going to be technical trained staff who understand compliance and quality. 00:18:18.500 --> 00:18:20.826 So we need to look at it as a full pipeline. 00:18:20.826 --> 00:18:23.661 Everyone doesn't need a higher ed or PhD. 00:18:23.661 --> 00:18:26.989 They may be really good with their hands in running facilities. 00:18:26.989 --> 00:18:33.173 So I think that balance of talent how do you actually create different pathways and value them I think is important. 00:18:33.173 --> 00:18:38.970 The close related one is because of incentives in the system. 00:18:38.970 --> 00:18:48.884 We do produce too many PhDs at a rate because you're on the clock, because you want to get the completion income, not because they're ready. 00:18:50.087 --> 00:19:00.048 So the readiness of our PhD is going out with the right understanding, not of just research, problem solving and the depth of expertise in their field, but what all they can do with that knowledge? 00:19:00.048 --> 00:19:04.244 The commercialization piece, the compliance piece, how do they inform policy? 00:19:04.244 --> 00:19:06.009 Because that's a gap. 00:19:06.009 --> 00:19:13.135 You could take a PhD, get into government policy, work with the public sector

and raise the standard, because it has to be a closed loop. 00:19:13.135 --> 00:19:15.422 You can't keep talking to yourself and your colleagues. 00:19:15.422 --> 00:19:19.352 So for me that people bit is a capability gap throughout the system. 00:19:19.352 --> 00:19:26.721 One example which works, because it's not all doom and gloom, is a program called the Science Policy Fellows. 00:19:26.721 --> 00:19:27.522 We run nationally. 00:19:27.522 --> 00:19:45.530 So that allows PhDs, postdocs, to get a one-year fellowship into federal government departments so they can pick departments or spend six months in foreign affairs, six months in department of environment. 00:19:45.530 --> 00:19:52.586 So it creates two things a knowledge for them for how policy is made, because it's never linear. 00:19:52.586 --> 00:19:55.028 There are so many factors they would never consider as a researcher. 00:19:55.028 --> 00:20:07.844 Two is it gives the department staff access to a potential expert, not on a particular topic, but on how you do research based decision-making, how do you look at the data, how do you analyze, how do you draw insights. 00:20:07.844 --> 00:20:14.391 So that becomes a true partnership in raising the way policies are designed. 00:20:14.391 --> 00:20:19.948 So I think that people bit is core and so many layers to it you can get into it. 00:20:21.102 --> 00:20:23.650 The second one across Australia. 00:20:23.650 --> 00:20:37.711 The challenge is we talk a lot about precincts and spaces but I can't point to a single successful one and those are usually the focal point around which every activity nucleates. 00:20:37.711 --> 00:20:42.087 So in medtech we always talk about the Texas Medical Device Center. 00:20:42.087 --> 00:20:44.484 It grew as a nucleus. 00:20:44.484 --> 00:20:48.208 Companies co-locate service design firms, co-locate IP firms, vcs. 00:20:48.208 --> 00:21:10.086 Until we get that critical mass in a few sectors, I think it's very tough to grow Because only then you see companies of different stages, you have a ready talent pool to tap into that company and we should be open right Companies will fail, but if that company fails, the network around has the absorptive capacity to take all the staff, the trained and talented people. 00:21:10.086 --> 00:21:18.425 So I think really pushing forward to get a few precincts which work, which are long-term planned, it's not going to be a success overnight. 00:21:18.425 --> 00:21:20.586 So that patient game I think is key. 00:21:22.102 --> 00:21:25.569 The closely related bit is the infrastructure piece. 00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:33.784 There's often this talk about value of death and it's never a single value. 00:21:33.784 --> 00:21:35.107 There are multiple values of death. 00:21:35.107 --> 00:21:44.988 The first one is, if you're especially in the research university sector, is getting IP out of the university is the first value of death, how it's actually seamlessly handed over to industry or a spin out. 00:21:44.988 --> 00:21:50.730 The second value of death is taking that proven concept past a trial. 00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:54.890 So how do you actually get access to enough devices to do that? 00:21:54.890 --> 00:21:56.403 That's one thing. 00:21:56.403 --> 00:22:04.527 I always use the technology value of debt, because the moment you can tap into a place which can make enough devices, you'll have evidence and investment flows. 00:22:04.527 --> 00:22:06.963 So it's not a lack of money, it's a lack of evidence. 00:22:06.963 --> 00:22:14.446 So I think the last bit is the manufacturing one which you should be tackling through the second value of death. 00:22:14.868 --> 00:22:31.405 If you do it right, that one's taken care of and being pragmatic right, you would never be able to manufacture in Australia for the world, but you need to own the IP so that it's made by Australian intellectual property and the royalty flows back to us. 00:22:32.008 --> 00:22:40.308 So I think that base infrastructure is key, whether it's a made in WA or a future made in Australia strategy. 00:22:40.308 --> 00:22:44.463 For them to work, that pilot or production infrastructure is key. 00:22:44.463 --> 00:22:50.913 The last one, I think, is just a culture change. 00:22:50.913 --> 00:22:53.105 We are very risk averse. 00:22:53.105 --> 00:22:56.186 We don't want things to fail. 00:22:56.186 --> 00:23:06.248 We think they'll point a finger at someone and say you should have decided better, and I think that has to go, because that's what is holding us back from actually delivering products. 00:23:06.248 --> 00:23:16.671 So the more intellectual property ideas, you can actually get further along the chain, and we should use our parliament houses, the design. 00:23:16.671 --> 00:23:29.644 There'll be a lot at the bottom and it'll narrow right to the top and take that for granted and so keep allowing things to go through the pipeline it's okay if it fails and use that knowledge to keep doing better. 00:23:29.644 --> 00:23:32.867 So I think I'd say it's a mix of those elements. 00:23:33.749 --> 00:23:36.752 So you're also President of Science and Technology Australia still. 00:23:37.733 --> 00:23:38.634 Until November this year. 00:23:41.142 --> 00:23:50.957 That's a lot of hats and, given what you were just talking about, I'm interested in reflections on your time as the President and the things that you've been a vocal proponent of. 00:23:50.957 --> 00:24:01.607 One in particular is Australia's investment in R&D, which I think everyone here would like to see also increased, so I'm wondering if you've got any, if there's any way that you can influence that in WA. 00:24:01.607 --> 00:24:13.352 But then also the other policy points that you've been advocating for around diversity and inclusion, innovation and long-term strategy and early mid-career researchers. 00:24:13.352 --> 00:24:15.663 So any reflections on that space? 00:24:15.663 --> 00:24:23.964 Given your

now WA hat has been added to your president one, see, I think a lot of the policy aspects right. 00:24:24.005 --> 00:24:30.454 If you're advocating for a particular spend as a percentage of GDP on R&D, it benefits every level. 00:24:30.454 --> 00:24:35.686 One of the challenges is how does everyone play their part in the system? 00:24:35.686 --> 00:24:45.046 Australia has been I'm worried to use the word fortunate, but our higher education system has been fortunate to have a lot of capital. 00:24:45.046 --> 00:24:50.968 So our higher education R&D spend has been disproportionately high compared to most countries. 00:24:50.968 --> 00:24:53.026 So the government's acronym is HERD. 00:24:53.026 --> 00:25:00.208 While the government expenditure on R&D has been steadily dropping, our business expenditure on R&D has been steadily dropping. 00:25:00.208 --> 00:25:08.503 Those drops had been hidden a bit by HERD because universities are spending more, because it pushed up their rankings, it created more students. 00:25:08.503 --> 00:25:15.634 Now, when that system has been disturbed, I think we are seeing the real consequences. 00:25:16.416 --> 00:25:24.261 But it's always easy to say spend more money, right, and I think that's the narrative which people go with and that's very harmful. 00:25:24.261 --> 00:25:36.430 Whenever I do a proposal or a policy position, I try to, yes, explain what Treasury likes, what the return on investment is, but I also like to outline what is the opportunity cost. 00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:41.088 So if we don't do something now, what is it going to cost us in 10 years' time? 00:25:41.088 --> 00:25:43.586 How many jobs could we have created? 00:25:43.586 --> 00:25:45.625 How much revenue would have come into the country. 00:25:45.625 --> 00:25:49.288 What are the social or environmental impacts? 00:25:50.020 --> 00:26:08.146 And I think opportunity cost being part of policy and decision-making not being a key part of it, I feel is a big drawback so we talked about ecosystems sort of with precincts, and I know that it's an area in terms of investment in strategy and innovation strategy that you're interested in. 00:26:08.146 --> 00:26:14.068 So what would an innovation ecosystem look like in WA that was really successful? 00:26:14.068 --> 00:26:18.346 What do you think are the key ingredients that we need to work on to make it really hum? 00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:22.968 I think if you were to define success down the track right, it would be three things. 00:26:22.968 --> 00:26:30.249 People are fighting to be in it, whether they're from WA or elsewhere, and the real test would be from elsewhere. 00:26:30.249 --> 00:26:31.573 They want to be part of that ecosystem. 00:26:31.573 --> 00:26:34.286 Two is the companies which are growing. 00:26:34.286 --> 00:26:36.171 See, companies would grow. 00:26:36.171 --> 00:26:45.911 They'll have to grow out of that ecosystem, but they want to leave their R&D in there and then they feel the ecosystem is working because they want to still be part of that research framework. 00:26:46.561 --> 00:26:50.865 So they keep a footprint here, but they expand over Exactly, they don't just completely leave. 00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:58.849 Yeah, so the manufacturing may go elsewhere, but version three of their product, version four of their product the R&D stays within that ecosystem. 00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:03.905 So that means your ecosystem is working because they see that's where that innovation activity is happening. 00:27:03.905 --> 00:27:11.171 And the third real test would be we are not even talking about whether it's academia, industry or whatever sector. 00:27:11.171 --> 00:27:16.231 It is actually that ecosystem that becomes the identity. 00:27:16.231 --> 00:27:20.323 You don't care about whether the idea came out of a medical research institute or a university or a company. 00:27:20.323 --> 00:27:26.729 It's just seamless and the person who's worked in this can move across and they're not penalized for it. 00:27:26.729 --> 00:27:31.784 And I think that's been the biggest challenge in why our ecosystem has failed. 00:27:31.784 --> 00:27:33.912 Because we don't allow cross mobility. 00:27:33.912 --> 00:27:40.531 A person moves from academia to government, has no way back into academia or industry. 00:27:40.531 --> 00:27:44.260 So I think those are the elements we have to change. 00:27:45.041 --> 00:27:48.468 People are a real important part. 00:27:48.468 --> 00:27:50.692 Does anyone know of anyone that has done that? 00:27:50.692 --> 00:27:54.944 Transferred between government, research, research industry? 00:27:55.506 --> 00:27:58.692 So actually, when I mentioned the science policy fellows. 00:27:58.692 --> 00:28:00.382 People have done that. 00:28:00.382 --> 00:28:06.845 So people have left research and academia, done the science policy fellowship, understood how things work. 00:28:06.845 --> 00:28:13.528 One of them went into TGA, the Therapeutic Goods Administration, and runs their research on consequences. 00:28:13.528 --> 00:28:25.092 So they're using their research skills, policy skills, in a very different research policy lens and a few examples along those lines I've seen work, but it's very rare. 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:34.087 But a closely related one, given you mentioned science and technology, we pushed a lot for changing metrics in grant programs. 00:28:34.087 --> 00:28:38.048 So there's the Australian Research Council industry fellowships. 00:28:38.048 --> 00:28:43.803 So if any of you have applied for it, it does not ask for a publication track record, it asks for a two page CV. 00:28:43.803 --> 00:28:47.426 So it moves away from the traditional metrics. 00:28:47.426 --> 00:28:53.753 Yes, it's the Australian Research Council funding it, but it's looking at are you the capable, right fit person for the role? 00:28:53.753 --> 00:29:00.092 And similarly, the application's not asking for a ten page full research plan.

00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:01.704 The whole idea is if you're innovative. 00:29:01.704 --> 00:29:07.007 The plan you wrote today doesn't apply in three months time, so we really have to move away from it. 00:29:07.007 --> 00:29:09.582 It has to be the big principles Is there a market need? 00:29:09.582 --> 00:29:14.086 What is the problem you're trying to fix and why are you the right person for it? 00:29:14.086 --> 00:29:23.230 It's only run a couple of rounds, but already we're seeing some people from industry taking on roles within university because they know there's good activity. 00:29:23.230 --> 00:29:30.246 There's extremely good infrastructure and I think people in Australia don't realize we have amazing research infrastructure. 00:29:30.246 --> 00:29:35.093 There can be challenges in governance, but it is actually top of the line and constantly upgraded. 00:29:36.134 --> 00:29:45.012 So do you think we can take national programs like these that are working and like run more of it in WA and copy what's working elsewhere? 00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:47.990 My simpler answer is to work with those funding agencies. 00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:51.329 Take the reserve list of the WA people who missed out and just fund them. 00:29:51.329 --> 00:29:52.965 Don't add an extra layer. 00:29:55.141 --> 00:29:57.048 WA Health does that already with the Near Mess Awards. 00:29:57.048 --> 00:29:59.207 Exactly yeah which has been quite successful. 00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:00.825 So there's enough out there. 00:30:00.825 --> 00:30:06.627 You can easily partner with those agencies and do it and provide feedback on what's not working for our fit right. 00:30:08.654 --> 00:30:08.878 Yep. 00:30:08.878 --> 00:30:14.431 So what surprised or excited you most that you've discovered since you started in June? 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:22.748 I think the sad thing is no real surprises In the context of you think it'll be different to the federal government. 00:30:22.748 --> 00:30:23.730 It all moves very fast. 00:30:23.730 --> 00:30:32.084 No, it doesn't, because the smaller ecosystem. 00:30:32.084 --> 00:30:33.407 You'd hope it's moving faster, but no so. 00:30:33.429 --> 00:30:39.304 I was hoping I'd be pleasantly surprised, but the good thing is, yeah, bureaucracy is still bureaucracy okay and it doesn't matter where you are, it's there. 00:30:39.644 --> 00:30:45.734 But to me the positive, like I said, that is intent and it's actually very collaborative. 00:30:45.734 --> 00:30:57.670 I don't see universities refusing to work with each other, like most of the programs and bids I see have multiple W universities on them together. 00:30:57.670 --> 00:31:02.868 I think that's actually quite refreshing compared to the East Coast and people may not realize it. 00:31:02.868 --> 00:31:07.892 Maybe the isolation makes people work together more, but actually it is a positive. 00:31:08.172 --> 00:31:09.756 Yeah, I've observed that too. 00:31:09.756 --> 00:31:11.182 I think we're really collaborative. 00:31:11.182 --> 00:31:16.480 So how do we increase that collaboration to include industry with academia? 00:31:19.227 --> 00:31:23.182 I think it's referred to in the 10-year science and tech plan and it's a question of how we implement it. 00:31:23.182 --> 00:31:42.529 Without looking at the boundaries, looking at what grand challenges we want to solve for WA through centers of excellence, having bids around that which are, then you come together as the right people to do it right, whether it's industry-led, academia-led or it's a proper partnership. 00:31:42.529 --> 00:31:44.201 I think that's a good approach. 00:31:44.201 --> 00:31:53.926 Interestingly, I heard which was a surprise that in the past there used to be a centres of excellence scheme in WA which worked well, so I've asked for more information on that because I'm very curious. 00:31:54.910 --> 00:31:55.310 So am I. 00:31:55.310 --> 00:32:02.006 I don't know if you've noticed it, but Shirath, I find, is a really eloquent communicator of science and technology. 00:32:02.006 --> 00:32:20.207 If any of you go back on YouTube and listen to his press club address that I referred to at the beginning from last year, and I think that you'll all agree that it's something that he does with difficult concepts like microchips and that I just don't understand at all, being a biological scientist. 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.748 But now shouldn't you understand, because you listened to my speech. 00:32:22.827 --> 00:32:25.967 Sure, yeah, while I was cooking dinner. 00:32:25.967 --> 00:32:29.445 Excellent point, well made. 00:32:29.445 --> 00:32:34.940 Have you always had a knack for communicating science, or is it something that you've actively had to work on? 00:32:36.403 --> 00:32:45.593 I think most of this you get better with practice, but for me, the fundamental principle of you doing research in the Australian system is a privilege. 00:32:45.593 --> 00:32:47.364 The taxpayer funds it. 00:32:47.364 --> 00:32:59.887 However poor we cry, whatever element we do is still taxpayer funded, and so it is our duty to convince them why it's worth it and inspire people to see what the opportunities are. 00:32:59.887 --> 00:33:05.628 And so, obviously, as a researcher, I started by the usual thing of writing a paper, publishing it. 00:33:05.628 --> 00:33:08.940 Then I was like that's not the end game, what do you do more with it? 00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:15.807 So we started actually doing media releases and this time we started doing there was a lot of pushback- From the university. 00:33:16.099 --> 00:33:17.282 No, from the sector. 00:33:17.282 --> 00:33:22.432 Like your peer reviewers would comment, they are dumbing down the science. 00:33:22.432 --> 00:33:24.928 So that can hurt. 00:33:24.928 --> 00:33:26.284 That's the discoverer's nature. 00:33:26.284 --> 00:33:29.547 But the whole point is I'm trying to make it accessible. 00:33:29.547 --> 00:33:32.465 You bring people along on the

journey, get them hooked in. 00:33:32.465 --> 00:33:33.449 They'll ask you more questions. 00:33:33.449 --> 00:33:34.432 Then you get into the detail. 00:33:34.432 --> 00:33:41.847 You can't be high and mighty and scare them away with the detail from day one, and so I think that fine balance in the communication piece was important. 00:33:41.847 --> 00:34:01.465 And I think the second aspect of it is often every project has a long-term value and the value could be making people's lives better, could be making the planet better, and I think communicating that value is very important if you want young people to actually get on the journey of STEM. 00:34:01.465 --> 00:34:13.409 I've spoken at multiple schools and whenever I talk in girls' schools, that communication piece I feel is transformative, because most girls don't pursue a career for a job. 00:34:13.409 --> 00:34:18.864 They pursue it because it has a sense of value, they feel they can make a difference. 00:34:18.864 --> 00:34:26.543 I'm really simplifying it, but unless they get that value of what this field can do to others, I don't think they'd pursue it. 00:34:26.543 --> 00:34:34.371 So I think it is a role of communication to actually highlight that I did a talk in a girl's school on ICT. 00:34:34.530 --> 00:34:38.467 So information and computing technology, thinking about it super dry. 00:34:38.467 --> 00:34:42.887 It's networking, it's a lot of microchips, but obviously I didn't focus on that. 00:34:42.887 --> 00:34:45.523 I focused on the different thematic things which are enabled by it. 00:34:45.523 --> 00:34:48.088 Microchips now make cars drive. 00:34:48.088 --> 00:34:50.481 Without a microchip, there's no car. 00:34:50.481 --> 00:34:51.402 Pretty much. 00:34:51.402 --> 00:35:02.139 A microchip is what is used in a hospital to save a person's life, to do an ultrasound, to look at the image, and you don't need to be designing a microchip right. 00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:12.108 You could design the product which incorporates it, you could do the service design to make it user-friendly, and there are so many layers to it, and so I think bringing them along on that journey is key. 00:35:12.108 --> 00:35:14.106 That's one of the reasons you'd communicate. 00:35:15.481 --> 00:35:18.230 So I've got one last question here on my list. 00:35:18.230 --> 00:35:24.550 This is a juicy one and I think you've already alluded to it, but I wanted to explicitly ask you. 00:35:24.550 --> 00:35:39.891 So, going back to the low success rate in national grant schemes, what advice would you give scientists and researchers engineers that might be in the room or listening how to be more competitive, and what should the state do to support them? 00:35:40.762 --> 00:35:43.367 Given your question, I think there's three parts to it. 00:35:43.367 --> 00:35:46.211 The first one what should an individual do? 00:35:46.211 --> 00:35:48.103 Make your work more visible? 00:35:48.103 --> 00:35:55.286 Communicate actively, whether it's in simple language, through media, through going to events on the East Coast. 00:35:55.286 --> 00:35:59.295 But the close related one is please don't think of Australia. 00:35:59.295 --> 00:36:00.641 Think of being the best in the world. 00:36:00.641 --> 00:36:02.362 Then Australia will follow. 00:36:02.362 --> 00:36:05.483 Your competition is not with the East Coast, it's with the world. 00:36:05.483 --> 00:36:08.550 So I think that's what we need to be aspiring to. 00:36:09.231 --> 00:36:12.144 The second bit is what can the government do? 00:36:12.144 --> 00:36:17.025 People may not like to hear it, but the government has to give signals of priorities and pick winners. 00:36:17.025 --> 00:36:18.853 We can't do everything. 00:36:18.853 --> 00:36:25.577 If we do everything, we'll be below average, and so that's the signal the government can do. 00:36:25.577 --> 00:36:29.032 We back these areas, even if federally they don't. 00:36:29.032 --> 00:36:36.139 We'll back it till we are better and the feds follow us with money, and so sometimes just pick winners, pursue it. 00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:39.112 Any external money is icing on the cake. 00:36:39.112 --> 00:36:40.115 It's not the cake. 00:36:40.115 --> 00:36:42.923 So I think that determined strategy has to be there. 00:36:42.923 --> 00:36:51.282 And the third one I would say is just bringing more people along to show the good work which is happening. 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:55.929 I really think that lack of visibility always hurts us. 00:36:55.929 --> 00:37:03.974 For example, I once sent a delegation from Singapore to visit WA because they were trying to see which area or person they partner with for clinical trials, and I don't think most people in WA knew actually how good our clinical trial system is. 00:37:03.974 --> 00:37:08.655 Visit WA because they were trying to see which area or person they partner with for clinical trials, and I don't think most people in WA knew actually how good our clinical trial system is. 00:37:08.655 --> 00:37:17.586 It's one of the most integrated within each unit and actually one of the cheapest in the world for highest quality clinical trials. 00:37:17.586 --> 00:37:24.322 So now we do have a WA clinical trial strategy but sometimes when you're so close to it you take it for granted. 00:37:24.322 --> 00:37:28.132 You need an external lens to look at it and shine a light on. 00:37:29.240 --> 00:37:29.884 Thank you for that. 00:37:29.884 --> 00:37:43.704 Well, I'm looking forward to the WLF Sciences Innovation Hub continuing to support lots of those activities, and I am going to draw the evening to a close and begin by asking you to thank Professor Shroom for his thoughts. 00:37:51.132 --> 00:37:53.815 You've been listening to the MTP Connect podcast. 00:37:53.815 --> 00:37:58.871 This podcast is produced on the lands of the Wurundjeri people here in Narm, Melbourne. 00:37:58.871 --> 00:38:00.786 Thanks for listening to the show. 00:38:00.786 --> 00:38:04.548 If you love what you heard, share our podcast and follow us for more. 00:38:04.548 --> 00:38:05.891 Until next time.