Jakson Part 1: Why Attribute Certificates are No Longer Just About Electricity- EAC Fundamentals & SBTi V2 Updates täydellinen litterointi

of my work kind 02:30.294 --> 02:33.865 of is carried out. But I do integrate and work with 02:33.882 --> 02:38.082 the wider service lines, supplier engagement, decarbonization strategies, 02:38.114 --> 02:42.041 transition plans, etc., to link those different 02:42.541 --> 02:46.194 aspects and interweave into the sustainability strategies that 02:46.694 --> 02:49.881 companies are developing. Fabulous, thank you very much. 02:50.522 --> 02:53.920 Um, so you agreed to come and have 02:54.420 --> 02:57.479 a chat with me about, uh, attribute certificates, 02:58.457 --> 03:02.737 and I would say probably a bit like me, when people 03:03.041 --> 03:07.225 hear, you know, like sustainability teams and people generally hear EAC, 03:08.411 --> 03:11.505 most people think of, all right, yeah, an energy attribute certificate. 03:11.617 --> 03:15.625 So like a renewable energy certificate, so a REGO 03:15.881 --> 03:19.440 or Guarantee of Origin, a Goo and IREC, um, a green, 03:19.696 --> 03:24.504 you know, green gas certificate, or, or even things like the sort of ISCC 03:25.016 --> 03:28.141 stuff for RTFO, um, but all 03:28.189 --> 03:32.308 about energy. But I, I guess 03:32.808 --> 03:36.009 it's wider than that, and I think what I'm understanding from you is that the 03:36.121 --> 03:39.903 E bit now kind of needs a bit work, a bit more work. 03:39.983 --> 03:43.316 It's not just purely electricity or biomethane. 03:43.669 --> 03:45.095 What do you kind of mean by that? 03:47.339 --> 03:50.977 I think you're, you're right. And yeah, when you think of EAC or EAC, 03:51.202 --> 03:55.256 it is energy that pops to mind. And energy 03:55.529 --> 03:58.879 attribute certificates are still very important. They are kind 03:59.379 --> 04:03.174 of very important for meeting market-based Scope 2 04:03.463 --> 04:07.069 targets and reducing those emissions. But across 04:07.569 --> 04:10.162 the market and the wider last few years, 04:10.739 --> 04:14.185 we've seen a kind of wider family of environmental 04:14.764 --> 04:18.201 and commodity attribute certificates kind of pop up and emerge. 04:18.701 --> 04:22.767 So it's not just on energy, it's actually bringing in other 04:23.073 --> 04:26.618 commodities which can be made low carbon, such as lower 04:27.118 --> 04:30.871 carbon steel, cement, fuels, chemicals, and agricultural 04:31.371 --> 04:35.749 commodities. And so this term of environmental attribute certificate 04:35.862 --> 04:39.273 popped up. I think the, 04:39.498 --> 04:43.220 the basic problem that it is trying to solve is 04:43.252 --> 04:46.689 very practical. And it's very similar to the— well, 04:46.786 --> 04:50.206 it's exactly the same as the Energy Attribute Certificate. 04:50.704 --> 04:54.205 But it's to support companies who want to support lower carbon production. 04:54.815 --> 04:58.124 But the physical product is not always available in the right place, 04:58.333 --> 05:01.561 volume, or timeframe. So it opens up 05:01.625 --> 05:06.234 this idea and very much linked to my work on insetting about 05:06.734 --> 05:11.003 engagement across supply chains and value chains and pooling blending and 05:11.100 --> 05:15.049 kind of linking up those geographies to ensure that 05:15.549 --> 05:18.886 they're not kind of constrained. So, you know, there's a load of different rules that 05:19.386 --> 05:23.830 we could bring in that, but ultimately it is funding the scaling and development 05:23.879 --> 05:27.234 of low-carbon commodities that you can't 05:27.250 --> 05:30.814 necessarily touch or integrate within your operations right 05:31.119 --> 05:35.197 now. Okay, that's, that's interesting. So would 05:35.697 --> 05:39.495 you then say that Although, how do I kind 05:39.591 --> 05:43.502 of say it, these things are important, direct action 05:43.551 --> 05:46.612 still comes first? Yes, yeah, 05:47.141 --> 05:50.973 yeah, and I think that's very much the same with the Energy Attribute Certificate, 05:51.069 --> 05:54.435 that it's part of that mitigation hierarchy, and I think the 05:54.935 --> 05:58.731 SBTi have kind of added a little bit more clarity and 05:58.827 --> 06:02.049 pushed that a little bit more in their Net Zero 2.0, which I'm sure we'll 06:02.549 --> 06:06.217 discuss in a little bit. Direct action and location-based work 06:06.717 --> 06:10.133 should always come first. Can you kind of sort this problem out at the source? 06:10.312 --> 06:13.218 Can you do it on your own properties, in your own operations? 06:14.730 --> 06:18.827 But then not everyone has access to those 06:20.128 --> 06:23.245 kind of those possibilities within their control. 06:23.743 --> 06:27.378 So someone might be pushing and have the budget or have the drive 06:27.475 --> 06:30.174 to be able to kind of scale these aspects. 06:31.870 --> 06:36.087 Let's take cement, for example, you might want to use low carbon cement within a 06:36.587 --> 06:40.800 building that you're creating, but that low-carbon cement is not available 06:40.816 --> 06:44.935 locally, it's available somewhere else. So that's where the value chain and 06:45.320 --> 06:48.911 insetting aspect opens up. You can fund someone else 06:49.411 --> 06:52.790 to be developing it elsewhere, but hopefully in the future you'll be able to 06:53.290 --> 06:57.407 do it on your own properties as well. Great plug for the Insetting podcast, 06:57.423 --> 07:00.885 by the way, and listeners should know that's one of our most popular podcasts actually. 07:00.934 --> 07:04.236 I think people have found that really helpful. So basically what you're 07:04.736 --> 07:06.801 saying is it's not about certificates going to solve Scope 3, 07:08.484 --> 07:11.417 Is it that they're going to become like a useful delivery mechanism, 07:11.690 --> 07:14.960 as you said? So you can't, you know, I guess 07:15.460 --> 07:18.246 I saw it in the ISCC stuff, you know, things are blended or they're not 07:18.746 --> 07:22.350 available here or

there or whatever. But basically it's about you can't 07:22.850 --> 07:26.181 just say, I'm going to be able to buy, you know, low carbon steel, 07:26.197 --> 07:28.922 have it shipped to my factory here and use it. It's a way of kind 07:29.422 --> 07:31.327 of saying if that's not possible, there's still like a plan B. 07:32.369 --> 07:35.927 Exactly. Yeah. And I think that it's— it can help channel that 07:36.120 --> 07:39.390 demand and finance towards the lower carbon 07:39.406 --> 07:42.948 production and help scale it to the point that hopefully 07:43.448 --> 07:45.752 in the future you will be, you will be able to use it in your 07:46.252 --> 07:49.518 own factories or in your own locations. So it's very much a, 07:49.903 --> 07:53.396 um, it's very much a mechanism, um, and it's not— 07:53.845 --> 07:57.355 and I think it needs to be reported as well— it is not the environmental 07:57.855 --> 08:01.938 outcome itself. It's not a free pass. It is a development 08:02.018 --> 08:05.464 of a path to be able to decarbonize. And I think 08:05.964 --> 08:09.614 it kind of really supports global net zero, not just your own operational 08:10.114 --> 08:14.036 net zero. Cool. Yeah, that's good. So to 08:14.812 --> 08:18.354 try and just kind of like cement the terminology a bit, 08:18.790 --> 08:22.418 what is an environmental or commodity attribute certificate and 08:22.499 --> 08:25.727 how is it different from just buying, 08:25.857 --> 08:29.596 say, a greener product? So yeah, it's good to 08:30.096 --> 08:33.966 get the definitions correct. So I would say a commodity certificate 08:34.351 --> 08:38.240 is a third-party assured market instrument that 08:38.740 --> 08:42.460 kind of represents a defined environmental attribute or an of an 08:42.556 --> 08:46.022 underlying good, product, or service. So that could 08:46.086 --> 08:49.360 be steel, cement, fuel, fertilizer. I think we're seeing 08:49.392 --> 08:53.965 this a lot with SAF and HVO. And then the attribute 08:54.465 --> 08:58.875 that it's talking about might relate to kind of more a lower GHG 08:59.821 --> 09:04.073 intensity or other specifically measured environmental 09:04.573 --> 09:07.667 performance characteristic that can be defined to that specific 09:08.167 --> 09:12.145 product. But the majority of times we're talking about it, The attribute certificate 09:12.259 --> 09:15.826 means that it is of a lower carbon, it's a 09:16.326 --> 09:20.390 lower carbon version of a specific product. And I think, 09:20.519 --> 09:23.964 you know, if I was to physically buy lower carbon steel and 09:23.996 --> 09:27.521 receive that steel, the product and the 09:28.021 --> 09:31.455 attribute travel together, but there's a few different ways of doing it. 09:31.504 --> 09:34.962 So, you know, if you're able to buy it and actually have the physical 09:35.462 --> 09:38.097 commodity, Great, that's the dream. 09:38.787 --> 09:41.915 But in a kind of maybe more of a book and claim model, 09:42.476 --> 09:46.648 it's— that's where companies can fund or purchase the verified lower 09:47.148 --> 09:51.043 carbon attribute, even if they don't receive that physical 09:51.543 --> 09:55.134 steel. So they are still funding from it, they can make a claim against 09:55.634 --> 09:57.477 it, but they are not able to actually use it. 09:58.183 --> 10:00.894 And that's where that kind of physical segregation, 10:01.728 --> 10:04.536 it becomes impractical. Um, or where, you know, 10:04.600 --> 10:07.954 producer needs broader demand to finance that new capacity 10:08.484 --> 10:11.613 to develop it and be able to use that low-carbon steel in the future. 10:11.853 --> 10:15.705 So you're funding the ability for you to use it in the future. Okay, 10:15.769 --> 10:19.203 it's interesting. So I think that's something that, um, people kind 10:19.703 --> 10:23.118 of get, say, with electricity or biomethane, but it's interesting 10:23.134 --> 10:26.248 to see that it's kind of in, in, in other areas. That's good. 10:26.825 --> 10:29.617 Um, when we talk about certificates, 10:29.874 --> 10:33.341 I slightly what springs to mind is one of my 10:33.841 --> 10:37.643 former colleagues that I used to work with who would literally always 10:37.740 --> 10:41.496 question the value in, in some cases of certificates and what, 10:41.672 --> 10:45.172 what they are and what they do. So to use his words, um, 10:46.022 --> 10:49.779 so what does the certificate actually give the buyer? 10:50.357 --> 10:53.711 Well, having worked in the, uh, the voluntary carbon market for 10:54.211 --> 10:57.580 a long time, uh, yeah, get this, this question quite a lot, uh, 10:58.500 --> 11:02.002 Basically, it should give the buyer a defined reporting right. 11:02.793 --> 11:06.182 And it's not just a story that you're kind of doing something. It is a 11:06.682 --> 11:10.662 defined reporting right. It can be used 11:11.162 --> 11:14.592 to be credible. It needs production data. It needs a 11:15.092 --> 11:18.431 clear methodology of how the carbon, lower carbon 11:18.448 --> 11:21.913 has been calculated. There needs to be clear chain 11:22.413 --> 11:24.876 of custody rules. Where is it from? Where is it going? Who's going to be 11:24.973 --> 11:28.030 using it? Who's going to be claiming what? Ideally, 11:28.479 --> 11:32.637 and I think this is where this is developing in the environmental attribute certificate 11:32.733 --> 11:36.538 aspect, it will be linked to a registry and you would hope 11:36.602 --> 11:39.604 that it has third-party independent assurance as well. 11:39.812 --> 11:43.745 And again, these are the principles we laid out in the previous podcast, 11:44.387 --> 11:47.582 but ultimately it needs that backing data to be 11:48.082 --> 11:51.370 able to give whoever the buyer is or the funder the right 11:51.870 --> 11:55.174 to report and actually be able to kind of back that up with evidence 11:55.222 --> 11:58.884 behind it and that it's actually been

attributed to 11:58.900 --> 12:02.870 you. Yeah, it is, it is proof 12:02.918 --> 12:06.148 that, that you have purchased this, you have funded it, and you have the right 12:06.648 --> 12:08.421 to report that lower carbon aspect. 12:10.020 --> 12:13.187 Okay, that's understood. So it sounds like the distinction between 12:13.365 --> 12:17.211 the environmental outcome and the reporting is 12:17.308 --> 12:20.799 quite central to all this? Correct, 12:21.088 --> 12:25.008 correct. And I would say, I will, I will give you a warning 12:25.040 --> 12:30.092 though, that the— and this, you know, this is a of 12:30.592 --> 12:33.797 the work that I do, a legitimate certificate can still be 12:33.925 --> 12:36.972 used to make an illegitimate claim. So even if you've 12:37.472 --> 12:40.692 done it all right, you can overclaim what is actually being kind 12:41.192 --> 12:44.734 of carried out and what you're doing. So it is really 12:44.846 --> 12:48.839 clear to link any claims to what that attribute 12:48.919 --> 12:52.448 and environmental outcome is. So, you know, I think 12:52.948 --> 12:57.184 that we've seen this across the sustainability work 12:58.608 --> 13:01.909 all over, you shouldn't be overclaiming. If you're overclaiming, 13:02.168 --> 13:05.404 you're making crazy claims up, you're going to get in trouble ultimately. 13:06.820 --> 13:11.446 Um, so, you know, I would, I would recommend testing the, the different instruments, 13:11.462 --> 13:14.810 you know, and defining what you're trying to do, why you're trying to do it, 13:14.923 --> 13:18.104 what are your targets, what's your GHG inventory, uh, what's— how are you going to 13:18.169 --> 13:21.583 account for this? Is it within your GHG inventory? Is it outside 13:22.083 --> 13:24.956 of it? You know, when we're thinking about Scope 2, you've got your location and 13:25.456 --> 13:28.643 your market-based inventories and reporting lines, for example. 13:29.284 --> 13:32.651 So it's, it's just make sure you've got all that defined. 13:33.356 --> 13:36.161 And then, you know, if any of those steps are weak, 13:36.979 --> 13:40.345 then that's where I would hold back 13:40.845 --> 13:44.353 a little bit on what you are actually trying to claim. Yeah. And I 13:44.853 --> 13:48.488 think I've sort of seen it with different, I suppose, 13:48.520 --> 13:52.223 different certificates and registries and things, you know, again, very limited 13:52.723 --> 13:55.840 in a sort of energy sphere personally. Recently, you look at some 13:56.340 --> 13:59.880 of them and you go, do you know what, that's really solid. Um, there are 14:00.380 --> 14:03.960 really well-defined rules there, you know, and, and how it's used and how it's 14:04.460 --> 14:07.960 transported and, and all these things and, you know, how it ships. And others are 14:08.460 --> 14:10.960 like, well, there's a certificate and it's held in a registry and it's fairly simple 14:11.460 --> 14:14.420 and it kind of worked. And it's

like, is it fit for purpose today? 14:14.920 --> 14:16.660 And you know what, we could go on. We, yeah, we could, we could go 14:17.160 --> 14:20.680 on about that for hours and hours. Um, but what, what I 14:21.180 --> 14:24.440 was gonna— why I wouldn't love to talk to you is, um, if that's all 14:24.940 --> 14:28.387 right, is that I'm fairly sure a lot of listeners will 14:28.596 --> 14:32.475 be interested in your views on how 14:33.645 --> 14:37.460 this might link to SBTi. Yep. And particularly 14:38.551 --> 14:42.125 the shift in SBTi's corporate 14:42.625 --> 14:46.069 net zero standard, the so-called version 2.2. With this 14:46.569 --> 14:49.403 kind of context, what would you say is the practical change? 14:50.637 --> 14:54.148 I think, yeah, obviously we mentioned SBTi and Net Zero 2.0. 14:54.324 --> 14:57.626 I think that that has catapulted this a little bit more to the mainstream. 14:57.915 --> 15:00.866 People have been been doing this for a long time. People have been developing these 15:00.962 --> 15:04.682 kind of mechanisms for a long time. But the SBTi 15:05.182 --> 15:08.692 Net Zero 2.0, um, was obviously kind of released this year. 15:09.157 --> 15:12.460 They have— they released a draft consultation last 15:12.509 --> 15:15.796 year, and that's where they kind of put the term environmental 15:15.876 --> 15:20.655 attribute certificate into the public stratosphere, 15:21.088 --> 15:23.959 uh, and kind of put that in. Interestingly, 15:24.392 --> 15:27.509 they have taken environmental attribute certificate out 15:27.590 --> 15:30.787 of the final guidance. So they now refer to this as 15:30.964 --> 15:35.045 market-based instruments rather than environmental attribute certificates, 15:35.398 --> 15:38.451 probably due to the confusion with energy attribute certificates. 15:39.720 --> 15:43.110 But when kind of, I've kind of questioned them and pushed that we're 15:43.610 --> 15:48.011 talking about the same thing. And, you know, in my kind of wider conversations more 15:48.511 --> 15:52.803 recently during London Climate Action Week, for example, people are still using 15:52.900 --> 15:55.090 the term environmental attribute certificates. 15:55.976 --> 15:59.599 The discussion of what they are, how they're to be used, for example, 15:59.744 --> 16:03.625 is very much joining up the dots between targets and GHG 16:04.125 --> 16:08.059 inventories. You've got the GHG Protocol Actions 16:08.107 --> 16:11.694 and Market Instruments draft whitepaper that was released recently. 16:12.211 --> 16:15.086 And so we're seeing joint upthinking across GHG Protocol, 16:15.505 --> 16:19.469 ISO, SBTi Net-Zero 2.0. Specifically here, 16:19.485 --> 16:23.124 the practical change is that the Net 16:23.624 --> 16:27.740 Zero 2.0 standard gives energy and commodity certificates that 16:28.240 --> 16:32.598 defined guardrail role within the broader target implementation 16:32.614 --> 16:36.894 hierarchy. What that means without the jargon is

just 16:37.439 --> 16:40.725 what are they? How can you use them to meet your targets? And I think 16:41.225 --> 16:44.941 that's huge because it just provides organizations a lot more options 16:45.390 --> 16:48.820 to actually be able to kind of reach their targets, and especially if they're 16:49.320 --> 16:53.453 in a kind of geographic geographical or value chain constrained point of view. 16:54.847 --> 16:58.903 So yeah, it allows organizations to kind of actually move forward with this 16:58.919 --> 17:02.029 rather than being constrained. We mentioned 17:02.529 --> 17:05.956 the mitigation hierarchy previously, and so that's what the SBTi Net Zero 17:06.456 --> 17:09.787 2.0 is given. It's given different levels, and obviously the push is always 17:09.820 --> 17:13.234 going to be for direct action on your own operations 17:13.266 --> 17:16.745 in your own value chain, etc. But in the 17:17.017 --> 17:21.153 SBTi Net Zero 2.0, it gives the activity level action, 17:21.361 --> 17:24.456 the activity pool section, 17:24.649 --> 17:28.289 and then the sector action. And that's different levels of how 17:28.417 --> 17:32.378 close to the actual low carbon 17:32.731 --> 17:36.275 aspect you can get. So that activity is reducing 17:36.775 --> 17:40.091 it within your own operations or in your identifiable value chain activities. 17:40.348 --> 17:44.261 That's the big push. The activity pool is kind of the smallest 17:44.293 --> 17:48.109 reasonable shared system connected to an activity. 17:48.382 --> 17:51.734 Such as a grid, a supply shed, or a logistics network. 17:52.296 --> 17:55.809 Let's take HVO, for example, or I've worked previously 17:55.921 --> 17:59.177 with the shipping industry and 17:59.273 --> 18:02.706 about kind of integrating biofuels into that. You can pay for 18:02.738 --> 18:06.411 someone to be able to utilize that biofuel, but you don't 18:06.428 --> 18:10.582 necessarily know if it has been used within the ships that you're 18:11.082 --> 18:14.464 funding or that are shipping your products, for example. But that 18:14.964 --> 18:18.248 is a defined system. Wider than that, you've got that 18:18.296 --> 18:21.920 sector action, and that's kind of pushing it up a little bit more, 18:22.465 --> 18:25.591 and the guardrails become a little bit tighter, but it's kind 18:26.091 --> 18:29.455 of taking the broader sector. So let's say you're in the steel sector, you're not 18:29.955 --> 18:33.415 defined to wherever you are sourcing steel from and how that is operating. 18:33.751 --> 18:38.064 You can be funding steel to be made in a low-carbon capacity 18:38.433 --> 18:42.345 somewhere elsewhere, claim it at the sector level, and then hopefully 18:42.425 --> 18:45.760 get it within your activity pool later on, and finally 18:45.872 --> 18:48.917 down to the actual activity level at the end. 18:49.719 --> 18:53.214 And one very exciting classification, 18:53.630 --> 18:56.900 and Russell, you and I were talking about this just before we started, 18:57.413 --> 19:00.892 but we've kind of been pushing the SBTi on how this 19:01.405 --> 19:05.477 works and where you report it, you know, market versus location-based 19:06.150 --> 19:09.917 GHG inventory reporting. And the SBTi 19:10.417 --> 19:13.844 have actually confirmed to us that the actions will contribute 19:14.344 --> 19:17.611 towards target achievement. Market instruments are reported separately, 19:17.932 --> 19:21.569 but can be used for target implementation subject to the criteria 19:21.697 --> 19:24.966 in Chapter 4 of the SBTi Net Zero 2.0. 19:25.398 --> 19:29.035 And I think that's quite exciting. That is, that is big news. 19:29.292 --> 19:32.737 And, you know, that's nice. Don't often get a breaking story on 19:33.237 --> 19:34.996 the podcast. So thanks for that. It's great. 19:35.156 --> 19:38.937 That's good. So basically, obviously, 19:39.226 --> 19:42.622 following up that, I would say bombshell, but following that, I'm guessing there 19:43.122 --> 19:45.859 are 2 disciplines here. So what you're saying is you follow the hierarchy. 19:46.596 --> 19:50.431 And keep the physical inventory separate from the additional 19:50.864 --> 19:54.394 implementation action. Is that right? Yes. And I think, 19:54.474 --> 19:58.308 you know, that, that's where the link with the GHG Protocol AMI draft 19:58.808 --> 20:02.223 white paper that is going to come out eventually is 20:02.255 --> 20:05.609 really coming to the forefront. We've learned a lot from Scope 20:06.109 --> 20:09.154 2, the market versus location-based aspects. 20:09.716 --> 20:13.615 And that's where I think we will see that split of location versus 20:13.647 --> 20:16.293 market-based accounting across all scopes. 20:17.558 --> 20:20.907 And that links in that mitigation hierarchy of activity level, 20:21.099 --> 20:24.512 activity pool, and sector. And that is 20:24.608 --> 20:27.716 kind of, as long as that is reported correctly 20:27.924 --> 20:30.680 across those 2 GHG inventory levels, 20:32.138 --> 20:35.887 then that is going to be demonstrating the action that can actually 20:35.919 --> 20:39.651 be happening and not pretending that you're doing everything 20:39.844 --> 20:43.352 within your own factory or your own office or wherever 20:43.852 --> 20:46.430 you are operating. So it is kind of providing both of it. But it's still 20:46.510 --> 20:49.994 saying you are carrying out decarbonization action. 20:50.653 --> 20:54.201 Yeah, but a skeptical question could be that does this not just create a 20:54.701 --> 20:58.183 loophole for companies that find direct action 20:58.296 --> 21:01.748 difficult? Sure. And I think, you know, 21:01.908 --> 21:05.361 there is— there's always loopholes, there's always issues, and there's probably someone who's 21:05.861 --> 21:09.905 always going to take a shortcut. But that's the risk. And that's why the evidence 21:10.162 --> 21:13.196 is the kind of key thing that matters. And we've seen 21:13.293 --> 21:16.408 this across loads of different kind of parts. But the evidence is 21:16.520 --> 21:20.885 really, really kind of key, and it's a structural constraint. 21:22.157 --> 21:26.617 You know, a structural constraint of not being able to source different materials becomes 21:27.117 --> 21:30.462 a label for kind of not being able to decarbonize. This helps 21:30.962 --> 21:34.696 push that forward, but then the requirement for that evidence makes— means 21:34.954 --> 21:38.355 that even though you're kind of not able to do 21:38.855 --> 21:41.821 it on your own site, you're purchasing it elsewhere, 21:42.631 --> 21:46.262 you can still make a claim, and that's going to push and engage organizations to 21:46.328 --> 21:49.836 actually do this rather than just saying can't do it, so I won't do it. 21:50.944 --> 21:55.261 Okay, that's really interesting. Um, so I think this probably 21:55.357 --> 21:58.102 wraps us up for part 1. Um, we still got a lot of stuff I'd 21:58.602 --> 22:01.199 like to, to go through with you for, for kind of like— I talk too 22:01.215 --> 22:05.163 much. No, no, no, this is really interesting. It's useful. It's good. It's good. 22:05.660 --> 22:08.389 So, um, yeah, Xander, 22:08.453 --> 22:11.984 thanks so much for coming and doing, uh, or starting to talk about 22:12.484 --> 22:15.786 this. Really appreciate it. Um, anyone who's listening, If this has been 22:15.995 --> 22:19.522 exciting, stay tuned because part 22:20.022 --> 22:23.034 2 will talk about some more about why this kind of stuff's moving up the 22:23.534 --> 22:27.026 agenda. You know, some actual real examples 22:27.219 --> 22:30.842 from, from sectors and the value of book 22:31.342 --> 22:34.803 and claim, talk about commodity certificates and carbon credits, 22:35.957 --> 22:39.405 integrity claims and what good looks like, and close 22:39.905 --> 22:42.467 up then perhaps with some practical steps. So yeah, 22:42.708 --> 22:46.229 Xander, once again, uh, massively appreciate you, you coming 22:46.729 --> 22:48.994 and joining me. Thank you. Thank you very much for the time,