Jakson Anton Krupicka Talks Western States Goal Sheet, Alpinism, Advice for the Next Generation täydellinen litterointi

like David Roach like found it and then like disseminated to the masses. 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:54.160 But um, but you know, like Max Petterson was taking Nomeo, or he maybe even had like a Nomeo sponsorship a year ago already. 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:56.319 Um, but I don't know. 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:02.000 And they do they do for doing crazy things like inhaling carbon monoxide, you know, because it's like this gray area thing. 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.480 I don't know what the purpose inhaling carbon monoxide. 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:05.839 Yeah, and it's it's banned now. 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.040 The UCI banned it, but like a year ago that was still a thing. 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:17.839 Like teams would at first it was thought to like help with altitude adaptation, I think, but or that maybe it was meant to like reduce the amount of oxygen in your lens. 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:28.879 I can't remember what the deal was, but it's just like you know, the equivalent of just like riding behind an internal combustion car, you know, and like inhaling fumes, but whatever. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:36.879 We might be all over the place in this conversation, but I I want to talk really quickly about uh maybe a month or two ago. 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.040 It was shortly after this year's Western States. 00:05:39.199 --> 00:05:46.480 You published a screenshot of a journal and it showed sort of like your A B C D E F G goals for Western in 2010. 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.560 I didn't realize 1420 was the A. 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:52.240 Yeah, I think you accomplished your D you accomplished your D goal that year. 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:58.560 Uh I think D goal is finish, but wait, I can't remember what my D goal was. 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:04.240 I mean It was lower down than I expected it to be, the fact that you were competing and you still ran what, like 15 super low that year. 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:06.879 Uh I ran 1513. 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:15.120 And I know so at that point in time, Scott had the course record, 1536, from maybe he ran an 04, something like that. 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.040 So I'd been around for a few years already. 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:22.800 Uh, but he had broken Mike Morton's time, which had been kind of legendary from the mid to late 90s. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:28.639 Um, and no one else, I think one other person had broken 16, maybe Tim Johnson. 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.800 Um and so definitely my goal going into that race. 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:35.120 So, I mean, this requires a little bit back backstory. 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:40.959 I qualified for Western 2008, but it got canceled uh because there was a fire on the course. 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:53.680 So going into 2008, I had gone to the course in late May, not for the training camp, but like maybe the weekend before or something, and run basically Robinson to the finish over two days. 00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:00.800 Um and uh that was where I was getting my sense of like what kind of splits I thought I could run. 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:08.959 And I think on that sheet that you're talking about, it was something like Dream Day or like if everything goes perfect or something like that. 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:11.759 I thought I could run 1420, you know. 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:31.920 Um I remember thinking this year when I like posted that the fucked up thing about it was I thought that getting to the river in the time, almost the exact time that I got to the river in was fast enough to go 1420, you know, which would have been like sub three hours or three hours flat or something uh from the river to the finish, which is absurd. 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:37.120 But I do remember that in training as the second day of like back-to-back long run. 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:48.079 So I'd run, call it uh well, I I parked at like Forest Hill and ran to uh last chance and then back down to like Cal two and back up kind of thing. 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:55.040 It was close to a 50-mile day, and then the next day went from the track to the river back to the the finish. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.920 So what is that 44 miles? 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:07.439 Um, so on tired legs, I was able to go river to the finish in 235, and I was like, okay, so like on even more tired legs, maybe I can go three flat, you know. 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.160 I don't know if has anyone gone three flat river to the finish? 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:10.720 I don't think so. 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:11.600 Yeah, exactly. 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:28.800 Like it's just fucking hubris, but anyways, it's just fun to compare and contrast different eras and to see what in like the yeah, in the elite runner consciousness was the stretch goal in that era, like 1420 versus like we've been very preoccupied with sub-14 for the last couple years, I would say. 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:29.839 I would yeah, yeah. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:47.519 I would say that um part of that was what so in 2008, um, so this is all like you know, just within a couple years of each other, that's when Kyle had just like broken the hard rock course tracker by three hours. 00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:54.639 And so I was definitely of this mindset of like, oh, all the current times are bullshit, except for like Matt Sledville. 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:59.039 Like, just ignore them, you know, just like do what you think you can do. 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:01.600 Because essentially that's what Kyle did at Hard Rock. 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:08.879 You know, he was just like, I'm just gonna go run what feels good, and it happens to be three hours faster than the course record, you know. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.279 Um, so that was definitely my mindset going into Western. 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:27.919 And like this is because like I had run with Scott a fair bit at that point, and you know, maybe he wasn't in the same shape in the late 2000s that he was in the early 2000s when he set the record, but

it was just like Scott was just like not the standard anymore at that point, you know. 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:34.639 Like I've I mean he still has some great races, like I think he still like won spathlon and badwater, you know. 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.360 But you put a 40-year-old Matt Carpenter on a pedestal. 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:39.360 His time was insane, dude. 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:47.759 Like I I ran that course a lot, and I just knew that it wasn't it wasn't insane, but I just knew that it was a stretch for me. 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:49.519 You know, it was definitely a stretch for me. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:50.000 Yeah. 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.559 Whereas like Western didn't feel like a stretch for me. 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:53.039 I don't know. 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:55.279 And I'd run low 16 at Leadville. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:02.480 And like I said, or we were talking offline earlier, like I think that there's close to an hour difference between the two courses. 00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:05.519 So it's just like yeah. 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:09.120 With this next question, my assumption is that you want to do it. 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.039 So if I'm wrong with my assumption, let me know. 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:22.799 But over the years, to what extent do you feel like you have killed like the running avatar of yourself or moved on from it in favor of a different athletic identity? 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:24.879 Uh, it ebbs and flows. 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:35.360 Um, I would say in the late teens, I like the running avatar of myself was like as dead as it's been in my whole life. 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:42.960 Um I was just like pretty chronically injured, just like had a string of injuries and was maybe a little bit bitter about it. 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:53.120 So like uh just like let it go kind of because I just couldn't you just get tired of like setting objectives and then having your hope staffed. 00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:04.399 Um but then in 21 when I went back to Leadville, I was like, oh I can still run a little bit, you know, like nothing spectacular, but like not embarrassing, you know. 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:12.240 And since then except for the last year, like the Achilles has been on like a gradual upward trend. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:25.679 And uh yeah, I've been like I've like re in the in the 2020s I've like gotten back into running from like a mental perspective more again. 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.000 Uh but currently um so you haven't wanted to move on? 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:32.960 Yeah. 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:34.799 It depends. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:36.240 It depends on the context. 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.559 Uh weeks like this, yeah, 100%. 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:40.240 It's like the worst. 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:44.480 Like being in chamony this week is the worst time to be here. 00:11:44.720 --> 00:12:11.279 Um and it's just I don't know if it's this is we've probably talked about this concept before, but like how every um every movement or every culture like starts out like underground and really core and kind of like earnest and like uh not uh like I'm not gonna say not self-reflective, but sort of just like not self-aware. 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.559 But you're just doing doing it because you love it. 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:34.000 But then as it like gains popularity, in and you inevitably like the mainstream consumes it to a certain extent because while ultrarunning is not a mainstream sport, it's certainly a heck of a lot more mainstream than it was a decade or 15 or 20 years ago. 00:12:34.240 --> 00:12:46.559 Um, and so you just it's like it's a bigger, it's a bigger crowd, and it's like it becomes this like sad tension of like, oh, am I not into this just because like I don't feel as special anymore, like I don't feel as unique anymore because more people are doing it. 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:49.039 You know, like that's a shitty reason to not be into something. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:57.679 But at the same time, yeah, it just feels diluted, like it just necessarily gets diluted as the uh you know, the number of people increases. 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:02.720 Which is fine, but it just makes it like a little less exciting to be a part of, I guess. 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:03.440 But yeah. 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:07.440 Yeah, I think audience capture, sort of. 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:13.759 Um like you're cat you, you are you are like held captive by the audience that like first came to understand. 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:15.200 But that's doesn't really make sense. 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:17.440 It's like the audience is held captive by the audience, you know what I mean? 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:18.240 Like you're held captive. 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:25.360 For me personally, like your identity is held captive by the people who understood what you did for the first five to ten years in endurance sport. 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:32.960 Yeah, well, I mean, I'm in like I'm in my early 40s now, so there's gonna be some kind of like athletic reckoning. 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.000 And uh like when I turned 40, I felt like I had a midlife crisis, you know. 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:44.080 Um and I feel like I'm past that to a certain degree. 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:45.200 But I don't know. 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:53.120 It's like also since I've turned 40, the last couple years I've like gotten really fit, and like I'm really fit right now. 00:13:53.360 --> 00:14:01.919 And uh it makes you like there's like that part of my brain that gets like excited about like you know, trying to mix it up again where I felt like I had been in this place. 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:06.000 Like when I ran Leadville in 2021, I was like past the ego part of it. 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.799 I was just like, man, I'm just like grateful to be able to run 100 miles again, you know. 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:17.919 And then the last couple years, it's like oh like I wanna sometimes

I'm like I wonder if I could still, you know, like do this or that. 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:24.080 And like, yeah, and you see people like Ludo, and you're just like damn, like don't sell yourself short. 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:27.600 Like maybe, you know, you there's still like more to be done. 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:34.080 And uh so yeah, I don't think I I don't feel held captive by an audience. 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:44.559 People are gonna like look at you the way they're gonna look at you, and you gotta I'm just forced to confront it when you're in the village at UTMB, you know? 00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:56.240 There has been like this you have felt, I'm assuming you felt some freedom to evolve and like with all the stuff in cycling and climbing, it's like that that still it makes sense for you and it's it still works. 00:14:56.879 --> 00:14:58.879 I just think it's well two things. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:04.240 I think it's totally fine and also like necessary and important to evolve as a person. 00:15:04.559 --> 00:15:10.960 To not just be like, there's no way you can just do the same thing for 20 years, I don't think. 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.519 Um I'm not capable of that. 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.600 Maybe my attention spans is too short. 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:29.519 But like you have to be keeping it fresh somehow, or like being excited about new things, and I don't know, I would say that's kind of like what my athletic expansion has been about. 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:43.919 It's just like it's it's fun to like be a beginner at something and get humbled by it and learn a bunch of new stuff and you know, just expand your your perspective as a human, I guess. 00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:44.480 Yeah. 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:47.360 I I think you might have posted this on Instagram a few months back. 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:54.480 You did mention the midlife crisis piece, but then you said But then you did but then you did say in July, it was like I'm kind of stoked on life right now, too. 00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:56.399 I'm always stoked on life, dude. 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:57.120 Like, I don't know. 00:15:57.200 --> 00:15:58.960 It's I I'm not a depressive person. 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:04.720 Like, um, you know, all blue days, but uh yeah. 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:07.600 No, I'm I'm definitely excited about things. 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:08.399 Uh yeah. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:10.159 What was the midlife crisis exactly? 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:14.000 Was it just like it was like it was really being confronted. 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:29.279 I mean, 40 is just like a number, of course, but it made me think about like, man, you've been I mean, running has been what you've done since you were 11, you know, so almost 30 years at that point. 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:37.600 Uh and professionally it's like the only thing I've done, you know, and getting paid to run and and you know, it's a mix of things. 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:51.440 You know, the teens was kind of like this high watermark for uh like social media kind of being sort of additive instead of just like negative, you know, or just being purely about commerce. 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:52.480 Algorithmic. 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:53.120 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:58.399 I mean what 21, 22 is when the algorithm take took over in my perception at least. 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:01.840 Um and that was right around when I was turning 40. 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.400 So you're just kind of like, what are we even doing here? 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:16.160 You know, and like uh, you know, if you're not competing, if you're not able to like connect to a community because there's like there's these roadblocks digitally, um, it just feels kind of like pointless, I guess. 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:20.720 And then I was just like, well, what am I like, what am I gonna be doing with my life, you know? 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:31.759 But uh, you know, since then I've like had some opportunities that feel stable and fulfilling, and uh yeah, I feel good about life. 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:35.440 Talk about closing on a property in the last year and renovating a house. 00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:36.960 Uh do you like it? 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.160 Yeah, do I like it? 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:41.039 Uh yes, on the whole, yes, for sure. 00:17:41.359 --> 00:17:48.480 But 2026 has for sure been the most stressful year of my life to like this minute, basically. 00:17:48.799 --> 00:18:04.480 Um it's just uh it's a lot like renovating a hundred-year-old cabin while also trying to like, you know, the whole point of the cabin was to like have access to the Alpine and well, I mean, have a place of our own, but below Long's Peak. 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:11.599 Yeah, we're like three miles from the Longs Peak Trailhead, and um that's a huge benefit. 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:21.599 I mean, this summer's been amazing in that regard, but it's also been a big balance of just I've had to learn so much, I've had to work on the house a lot. 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:45.839 Um, and that's been like a rewarding process for sure, but there's still that constant tension of like, but I want to be getting up in the mountains and I want to be like, you know, I am 43, like I'll, you know, each year just feels like sand slipping through my fingers, you know, in terms of like athletic ability and maximizing that at the same time. 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:51.359 So I'll be happy when winter comes and I can feel like I can slow down a little bit, you know. 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:58.000 When I saw you at TRE last year, you you briefly mentioned in passing that you would you were just starting that Michael Pollan book about how to build a house. 00:18:58.240 --> 00:18:58.720 Oh, right. 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:02.000 Well, yeah, or he was like building like kind of like a writing like a writing cabin. 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:02.160 Yeah. 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:03.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:19:03.279 -->

00:19:05.039 Uh I ended up doing that. 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.839 I built a couple sheds this winter, uh, which was pretty sweet, actually. 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:15.920 It's really rewarding to like work with your hands, swing a hammer, like literally just nail a bunch of boards together and have a structure. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.559 He's like a pretty sick process. 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:26.720 Um, I think a lot of my life, I hadn't, I wouldn't say looked, yeah, maybe look down on this like manual labor a little bit. 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:33.039 It was like, uh, it's important to like develop your mind and be able to use that. 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:45.599 Um and I'm really glad that I don't have to like swin a hammer for a living, but uh I think it is a pretty if you have the luxury to do it electively, it's uh I like it. 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:55.680 For the next big project that you set out on, whether it's you know this fall, winter, or next summer, what what kind of constraints are you the most interested in right now? 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.039 Or what intentions would you set around the project? 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:04.480 If you compare and contrast it to like the um what was it, the the that massive bikepacking trip that you did. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.039 Oh, okay. 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.119 You know, I thought for a second you were still talking about carpentry. 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.559 I mean, that could be like financial, man. 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.359 It all comes down to how much shit you can buy at Home Depot. 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:17.680 Like those are the main constraints. 00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:20.799 That in the fucking county, getting a permit. 00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:24.160 That's a that's a huge stress in my life right now. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:28.079 But um uh what constraints? 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:38.559 I mean, the main constraint in like I was gonna say it's like your body, like what it can handle. 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.920 Something like, you know, Killian's states of elevation last year. 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:48.240 Sort of just like your metabolism and your mind are the constraining factors, you know what I mean? 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:56.720 Uh because apparently like musculoskeletal durability, well, that's proven out to be untrue, but I was gonna say, is it an issue for Killian? 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:05.839 But um no, for me, the constraint in a project is usually the style in which I'm interested or get inspired to do it in. 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:11.440 Uh and that is uh how much support you're gonna have. 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.319 You know, is it gonna be self-supported, is it gonna be unsupported? 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.880 Uh, what does that mean, depending on you know, the context? 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:27.519 Uh that's the main constraint because like Killian's thing, you know, mind-blowing on like a metabolic level, I would say. 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:42.640

Uh and really cool, kind of like in the point-to-point aesthetic of it, but only possible because of the support he had, which is just like not a style that I'm interested in. 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.039 But all like diminish like what he did. 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.039 Yeah, and super hard to recreate. 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:58.559 Takes a lot of resources, financial, human, uh raw materials, you know, a van, RVs, you know, like all that shit. 00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:04.000 Uh But yeah, it's I prefer less faff. 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:25.519 Um and less like it's funny because w if you when you do something supported, and this is the this is the interesting thing about racing, is like it really is this community ex community experience, like if you have a crew and pacers and that kind of thing, and it is it is fun to share that, but man, I don't know, it feels really one direction. 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.839 Like all the support's going towards you as the as the runner. 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:38.400 Um and I think you know you balance that out later on in life, hopefully, by giving back to either the event or the people who have helped you and that kind of thing. 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:49.200 Um but it's definitely I think for me when it comes to a project, there's less of a burden the fewer people involved, you know. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:54.079 And so like the fewest people involved is when it's completely self-supported or unsupported. 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.000 Um just self-reliance. 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:05.680 And self-reliance is self-sufficiency, is a like that's those are principles that I find to be really inspiring in life in general. 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:11.119 So it just makes sense if you're gonna create some kind of project that those are what it's built around. 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:17.599 To what extent do you feel inspired in the route creation realm? 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:26.400 Like to get like to contribute something to the community in the form of like this cool new, like either like bike packing route or running route or climbing or some mismash of all of it? 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:31.759 Because you've talked about this a lot recently with like just like looking back on like Buzz Burrell and some of his stuff. 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:33.279 Like, have you ever thought about that point? 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:47.759 Well, the multi-sport stuff is gets complicated because it's like are you optimizing for like you know, say like you're doing a bike tour where you're linking up peaks, are you optimizing for the riding or are you optimizing for the peaks that you're climbing? 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.640 And then when you're climbing the peaks, are you do you care about the route that you do on the peak, or are you just trying to tag the summit? 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:55.200 You know, there's all these different levels. 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:15.680 Um, and I don't know, uh it's it gets tough because then within

it all, are you trying to do it, you know, like Killianston, both Alpine connections and states of elevation, it seemed like he was optimizing for link ups, you know, like like completing ranges basically, which is really cool uh and one way to do it. 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:22.559 But it's also it it kind of you're optimizing for like the least amount of time possible. 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.720 Like you're cutting sleep is insane. 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:26.400 Like that's just something I have no interest in. 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:41.119 But when you get into this multi-day stuff or multi-week stuff, even apparently, as killing is proved, like cut cutting sleep becomes this huge factor that like I think literally is just like killing brain cells and taking years off your life in a way that I'm not interested in. 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:48.079 It's just like uh just this morning I was so sleep deprived and like I was like, this is such a miserable way to be. 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:51.519 Like it's just not why I go into the mountains, you know? 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:53.039 Like, but yeah. 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:55.279 Do you do you think about route creation though? 00:24:55.359 --> 00:25:00.079 Like, do you have a route in mind that you would want to share as like a standard for people to test themselves on? 00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:12.880 I currently have a route in Nebraska that I'm really I think that I think is really cool and like like where I grew up, I think deserves more appreciation from like the larger cycling community and only like kind of like makes sense for cycling. 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:18.079 Running, it's like who wants to run a bunch of gravel roads, but uh on a bike it's it's cool. 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:24.000 Um in terms of one second, could you do like a gravel event from your hometown in Nebraska? 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:35.599 Uh yeah, there's been so many other things going on this year, but I was in like it wouldn't be an event, but it would be a route that people could do um because I think that has more impact on the larger community. 00:25:35.680 --> 00:25:46.000 Like if you go to bikepacking.com, they have you know a clearinghouse, a catalog of routes, and I think that's a really cool way to give back to a community. 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:54.400 Um maybe because the multi-day stuff on foot is something that I just don't ever see my body like handling. 00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.480 I've never become interested in that. 00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.880 But on a bike, I think it's really cool. 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.440 Um, but yeah, I don't know. 00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:02.640 Is it untapped in that area? 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:05.599 To like are there other events or like is that area of the city? 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.359 Dude, there's no people in Nebraska, there's no humans, you know, like it's which is fine. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:10.640 That that that's totally fine. 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:18.559 But as a

result, like it's really hard to you know, you you go to an event like uh like Unbound in Kansas. 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.839 It's sort of the western states of gravel cycling, I would say. 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:27.119 Um, and uh you end up importing a lot of people. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:48.559 And Unbound Emporia, Kansas, is going through the same uh issues that Chamony and UTMB are right now, with in terms of like the new mayor coming in and basically being like, like the reason I was doing a group run at 4 30 this morning was because of the crackdown on community runs, dude. 00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.799 Yeah, like it's just like yeah, anyways. 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.720 They're fighting that battle in Emporia, Kansas. 00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:56.720 Yeah, just the mayor runs on like an Antelope. 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:22.480 It's like the local tension of like all these people ripping around and like skin suits on plastic bikes, like thinking it's important when it's like, well, we're trying to like get the corn planted, or like we're trying to like get the first cutting of alfalfa, you know, or like we're trying to move cattle, you know, like it's just like it's just a tension between the local community and uh all these imports who are there to like you know, it's any tourism is a form of extraction, you know. 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:27.759 It's an extractive industry just like mining, forestry, uh, agriculture itself. 00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.799 I mean, you know, it's uh so there's always gonna be that tension. 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:43.519 And it seems like maybe because in gravel racing, these events have been held on open roads where like permitting is like not even really a thing because they don't even mark the route. 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.480 It's all just like it's just a GPX track on your computer, you know. 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.240 Um, they don't close the roads. 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:54.960 They've started closing kind of like intersections of stuff a little bit, but uh, anyways, it's really easy to overpopulate the scene. 00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:03.680 Uh an event like Washer States or Hard Rock, they're I don't know, not even artificially because of the Granite Chief Wilderness, but now they're rotting around that. 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:07.440 But like Hard Rock, like artificially, their permits were 250 or whatever, right? 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.039 But they limit it to 150. 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.880 Um you just keep it small artificially, which is which is fine. 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:20.400 Uh and there is a cap at Unbound, and you know, there's a cap here at UTMB, but it's on the order of thousands instead of hundreds, you know. 00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:25.839 It starts to be in a different impact on the local area and and people who actually live in these places. 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:26.400 So yeah. 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:27.359 Have you been following? 00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.400 It reminds me, have you been following the ongoing battle between the newly elected mayor here and UTMB? 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.240 Only like what's been in the podcast verse, you know. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.759 I basically just listen to this podcast and Debo's podcast. 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:43.519 I like I feel like you guys are comprehensive enough. 00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:44.480 I only got so much time. 00:28:44.720 --> 00:29:02.480 Well, where where uh I mean again, just based on your experiences here in the past and yeah, the parallels with like Unbound and these other events, where do you come down on like whether this has been overcrowded versus it let like let it proceed as it's you know, it's funny, like you know, because I've been coming here for more than a decade. 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:07.759 It's hard to say what I don't feel like it's changed that much from the mid-teens. 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:12.000 It's it was annoying then, it's annoying now, you know. 00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:13.599 Like, I don't know. 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:21.759 Or maybe because like I'm so much less relevant in the community, I just don't feel the same impact now that I did a decade ago when coming to UTMB week. 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:30.079 Um so it like has evened out uh in terms of like how overwhelming it feels to be here. 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:31.519 But I don't know. 00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:34.160 Like I thought the I mean what is today, Tuesday, Wednesday? 00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:37.759 I thought the athlete village was like pretty chill this morning, you know. 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:45.839 Like, I mean, not my place, not where I want to be, but it wasn't like sardines in there, you know, which is my recollection from a decade ago. 00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:46.960 But I don't know. 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:48.400 4 30 a.m. 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:49.200 group run. 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.240 Well, I had to get up at 4 30 for a 5 30 group run. 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.359 Like, but yeah, but 5 30 is like kind of ridiculous. 00:29:55.839 --> 00:30:00.400 When I when I saw the 4 30 wakeup, I just assumed that was 4 30 p.m. 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.880 I was just like, this is why like I was literally sleeping and they had to wake me up this morning. 00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.920 But like I was just like, oh, this, yeah, okay, 4 30 p.m. 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:08.480 That makes sense. 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.279 That's that's time to go for a run, not 4 30 a.m. 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:12.480 But yeah. 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:15.359 Are you carrying any books with you on this trip? 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:16.960 I have one book with me. 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.160 This short trip. 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.279 Uh Gia Talentino's Trick Mirror. 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:23.279 She's a writer for The New Yorker. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:31.839 I think Trick Mere probably, it's our only book, I think, Book of Essays, came out five or six years ago, maybe right around like

2019, 2020. 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:41.839 Um Trick Mirror, I think, is a reference to she writes a lot just about like the social media age, the digital age, reckoning with that. 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:42.880 She's a millennial. 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:44.319 Um, I think she's a millennial. 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.319 She's about my age, a little bit younger, maybe. 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.319 But uh that's what I brought on this trip. 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:49.599 Where did you pick that one? 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:55.279 Mostly by its thickness um and what I could fit in the bag. 00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:02.960 And uh I had just read Oh, did she just do she just had an article about Ozempic? 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:03.599 I can't remember. 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:05.359 Brain's brain's fried right now. 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:06.400 Little sleep. 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:18.160 Um no, just in general, like the all like like looks maxing in general, and kind of like the sort of like the presentational, like the heavily presentational culture online anymore. 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:21.119 Not even online, but just like in in real life too. 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:29.279 Um that was an article sometime this summer in the New Yorker, and it just kind of like rekindled my interest and yeah, that book. 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:30.160 So brought it. 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:31.359 What else have you read this year? 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.079 That's been good. 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:33.200 Not very much, dude. 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.160 My life's been busy. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.279 It's yeah, it's been it's been a tough year on the reading front. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:41.039 Um, like I said, most stressful year of my life. 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:50.720 It's which leaves like when you wake up in the morning and you feel like you're just being pulled in like five or six different directions, it's hard to like focus for 30 minutes and like drink your coffee and read a book. 00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.279 But Sportiva, the house you get married to. 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:55.519 Yeah, those are the main things. 00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:56.240 Yeah. 00:31:56.640 --> 00:31:58.640 But where are you getting married? 00:31:58.880 --> 00:31:59.200 Where? 00:31:59.359 --> 00:31:59.839 Or why? 00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:04.400 If you want to say why, you can, but because I'm traditional, dude. 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:05.119 Um no. 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:07.039 Were you ever anti-marriage? 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:08.799 Were you were you ever anti-marriage? 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:10.799 No, I've never felt that way. 00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:16.559 I've like the closest to anti I've felt is probably indifference, you know, but definitely never anti. 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:25.599 Um where just NASA Spark, yeah, which is the closest town to where we're next month. 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:27.279 October. 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.359 That's close enough to next month at this point. 00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.920 To what extent have you followed UTMB? 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:35.200 Like the storylines coming into it. 00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:37.359 And uh I've listened to your preview. 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:37.920 Okay. 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:41.680 And yeah, so I've it's funny though, I feel bad. 00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:52.400 I was doing a different interview this morning, and I think it was with Lake Heap, actually, and they uh were asking me like my predictions for the top three, and I was just like totally blanking on people who are gonna be in the race. 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.559 But no, uh I feel like I was bummed. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:01.519 I think just in the last couple days, uh Shumaya Buddha dropped out of the Android Croft. 00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.799 Oh, Rusau too! I think I picked her for the win in this interview. 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:06.160 As of no as of this morning. 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:07.519 Oh, well, as of this morning. 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:08.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:13.359 Damn, like both the men's and women's fields just like depleting. 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:16.640 Yeah, I I mean, and I think it's there's different reasons across boards. 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.440 Sometimes it's injury, sometimes it's personal family life stuff. 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:28.960 But um, I think the open question right now is what is the what is the optimal, especially if you're from like the US or anywhere international. 00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:29.839 When to show up. 00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.839 What yeah, when when to show up here? 00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.640 I mean, the main reason I don't like international travel anymore is like I'm just getting old. 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:37.759 I hate getting sick. 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:41.119 It happens almost every time I I travel, you know. 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.240 Um I guess I should be masking up or something. 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:49.119 But uh because I know that's why Shumaya dropped out, right? 00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:53.839 She got sick or I I actually think it's it's super interesting. 00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:59.920 My understanding is that she had an injury at Lavareto at the end of Lavareto. 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:01.519 Which she like won in a course record, right? 00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.400 One in a course record, but then went back to Nepal. 00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:08.480 And I don't think that she had the services in Nepal to adequately treat this. 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:12.639 It was like an ankle injury or something, and then she sort of waited to come to training camp here. 00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:14.719 So just TT, like that kind of thing. 00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.000 And yeah, it could have been worked on, I think, in July, but just didn't have the opportunity. 00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.440 So got started getting the treatment done like this month and just not enough ramp. 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:22.400 Yeah,

what's the injury? 00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:22.719 Do you know? 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:23.679 I don't know for sure. 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:26.559 Yeah, I think ankle, but I can't say for sure. 00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:28.639 Okay, yeah. 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.920 Um, so I've been following UTMB a little. 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:32.400 Yeah. 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.440 Uh I hear through the week? 00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:37.119 Like through until Friday night. 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:37.599 I'm here. 00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:42.000 I'm gonna watch the I'm gonna watch them run through LaZouche and then drive back to Geneva, dude. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:44.559 This was a slam bane trip. 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:45.679 Like, yeah. 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:47.599 I gotta get back, man. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:49.039 I gotta get this permit sorted. 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:50.880 Like, what are the permits? 00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:59.599 To well, I thought it was gonna be to literally expand the bathroom so that there was space for like a laundry room as well. 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.599 Yeah, um, and like a little mud room. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:04.000 Like I'm talking like 40 square feet, dude. 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:15.920 Um, but now it looks like it might even be in question whether we can like winterize the little addition, which would be a real problem because this is our year-round residence, and the plumbing is not currently winterized, so yeah. 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.760 It's crunch time because it's gonna start freezing up there in a month, yeah. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:22.960 You can take this in any direction that you want. 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.599 Uh, an athlete in endurance sport. 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:29.039 I'm not gonna say that inspires you right now, but that intrigues you and why. 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:30.000 Hmm. 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.239 Doesn't have been running, but it could be. 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:32.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:33.519 Let's let me think. 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.760 Uh, who intrigues me right now? 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:37.199 Yikes. 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:41.039 Uh who's coming to mind? 00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:44.159 This is just like the first one off the dome. 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:46.639 Um, I'm not even sure of her last name. 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.440 I think her name is Nicolette Jennings, something like that. 00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:58.239 Um, this is how much but uh she I know she just won the Colorado Trail race, bike race, bikepacking race, uh, for the third year in a row. 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:03.679 But what's intriguing about her, I think it's really cool, she has also done it on foot. 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:07.840 I don't know if for speed, I don't think for speed, but at least like through hiked it. 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.360 Um, and on skis. 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:10.559 That's the real clincher. 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:13.440 Because I think you're only gonna do it on

skis. 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:23.039 I would say April is probably the optimal month, but then you're still balancing, you know, it's backcountry ski touring, like avalanche, like snow conditions with snow coverage. 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:29.840 Like, if you're gonna do it in April, you're probably hiking the first hundred miles through the South Platte, you know, from Denver. 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.159 Um, so it's a really interesting way. 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:32.559 I don't know. 00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:38.320 I just think it's cool that like someone has taken this, I guess you'd call it a long trail. 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:39.679 It's 500 miles-ish. 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:45.280 Um, and just been like, I'm gonna do it in this style, this style, and this style, you know? 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:47.199 Like that's that's interesting to me. 00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.960 That's the first one that pops in my head. 00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.159 I made a note here. 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.000 I want to make sure I get this correct. 00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:56.559 We, when we were speaking two years ago, you mentioned him, Colin Haley. 00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:58.960 I think we were, it was somehow a reference to Jack Kenzel. 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.239 And I never really followed up on the backstory there. 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:09.440 Like, can you can you recollect your first encounter with Colin Haley, like while you were climbing together in Patagonia? 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:10.400 Oh, okay. 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:10.960 Yeah. 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:22.159 Um, so this should have been summer 2016, and that summer I was doing a lot of climbing with a buddy of mine in Boulder, uh, Jed Brown, who is a total legend, but we don't need to go down that. 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.840 All you need to know is like Jed won a PLA Doyle when he was like 23. 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:28.079 Um, it's kind of nuts. 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:36.719 From Alaska, grew up in like a cabin in the Alaskan woods, D1 Nordic ski racer at Dartmouth, uh, teaches computer science at CU now. 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:41.280 But, anyways, Jed and I, yeah, Jed, yeah, great dude. 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:56.559 We were climbing together a lot that summer because he and Colin were gonna go on an expedition to I think the Karakoram, definitely like the Himalayas, uh, but I can't remember if it was like Pakistan or Afghanistan, but whatever. 00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:02.159 Um, and Jed was just like, uh, so we were climbing a lot of alpine granite. 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.440 Um, and then I had to come here to UTMB. 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.760 Uh I think Petzel was why I was out here that year. 00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:12.559 They were like, I was doing a bunch of excavations with them. 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:18.639 And Jed's like, oh, I I should link you up with my buddy Colin um in Chamony. 00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:35.599 Like, he's he's always like looking to you know, basically do like aerobic albinism, aerobic alpinism, which is like a niece, you know, where you're like you're moving fast, you're not carrying much, uh, but you're doing like technical high alpine stuff. 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.480 Um and so yeah, he just put us in touch. 00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:48.000 Uh I remember we got dinner um the night before, and then the next day we climbed the A Gidalem together. 00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:53.039 Uh just like ran up and soloed it, which is like I'm not into simuling. 00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:59.039 Like, if I'm soloing, I like to be by myself, but that climb ended up being chill enough, it was totally fine. 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:04.800 Um and after that trip or trip, it was like really one single outing. 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:12.159 Uh Colin just like emailed me and was like, hey, like I'm looking for like another partner for Patagonia this this winter. 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.039 Like, I think we could do some fun stuff. 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:22.000 And at that point, I'd only been climbing seriously again for like two or three years, and I was just like, are you fucking serious? 00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:36.000 Like, no, like I didn't say no, but I just like there is no one else in the world that I probably would have gone to Patagonia with in 2016 other than Colin Haley, which sounds so ridiculous and pretentious, but it's because like he's Mr. 00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:47.360 Patagonia, like he at that point in time he's already been going for over a decade and um was one of the most preeminent alpinists doing stuff in that range. 00:39:47.519 --> 00:40:04.079 Um, so I just like having someone with that profile like ask me was flattering, but also like confidence, like they're big mountains and they're scary mountains, and um you know, every summit is fifth class with multiple repels to get off. 00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:08.159 And uh so yeah, I said yes, and we ended up climbing down there. 00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:09.199 We got completely shut down. 00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:09.920 It was a terrible. 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:11.679 I was only there for a month. 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:16.639 Colin ended up only being there for a month because he was injured, he had shingles, he had IT band syndrome. 00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.000 I had IT band syndrome. 00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:21.840 We were like, yeah, we climbed two days um in the mountains there. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:24.000 The weather was a terrible weather season. 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:27.840 Uh, usually Serratore is summited by multiple routes. 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:35.760 Um it didn't see a single summit, and usually Fitzroy uh El Shol 10 is summited by multiple routes in a summer season. 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:45.599 It only saw summits from uh the Supercantileto that year, which is the easiest and most snowy, like icy route on the mountain. 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.679 Um so it was a terrible weather year. 00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:49.119 Just never got any weather

windows. 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.280 That whole trip had played out fully. 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:56.639 Would that have been athletically, or at least from like a competence standpoint, the most stretched out you've ever been? 00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:58.960 Like the the like the most on the edge of sort of like. 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:11.840 Um I didn't feel that I mean it probably I wouldn't say that I fell that in over my head or anything, but definitely was out of my element. 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:24.000 Like I remember, so on that trip, the idea we wanted to do initially we wanted to break the town to town like speed record on Fitzroy for that trip. 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:30.480 Because Colin already held it, but it just felt like we could go a lot faster and and go via this this different route. 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:34.400 And um but both of our IT bands weren't gonna allow that. 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:43.199 So then we were just gonna go for the fastest like Berg Shrenda summit on Fitzroy by the Supercan, and we were gonna take like this um route that only seen one ascent. 00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:45.679 This is like the direct route instead of the normal route. 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:55.119 Um and uh anyways, the way our strengths balance out, Colin's technically way stronger than me. 00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.519 Um so he was gonna lead everything. 00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:59.360 We'd simulclimb a ton. 00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:04.400 Um, but I would generally carry more weight because I was just aerobically way more fit than him. 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:11.920 Um and that worked out a lot uh on the approaches, I would carry more weight and you know, still feel like we're going slow, you know, kind of thing. 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:25.440 But then I remember when we got on the super can, um, and we did what we did a rock route on uh uh a Gulagijame, and um it's like a 13-pitch rock route, and I felt totally fine there because I I climbed a lot of rock. 00:42:25.599 --> 00:42:32.480 But on the supercan, which is a lot of like mixed climbing, a lot of like steep snow, low angle ice. 00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:38.239 Um Colin is he has to be one of the most proficient people in the world on that kind of train, you know. 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:45.519 And I was just getting smoked, and it was just like when you don't have the technique, you're like you're gonna suck. 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:49.519 You know, you're overkicking, you're over-gripping, and Colin's just like walking up shit. 00:42:49.599 --> 00:42:53.199 Um, so I had to like ask him to like take weight because he was just dropping me, you know. 00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:58.960 Um, so yeah, definitely was out of my element for sure, but uh learned a ton. 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:10.159 Um Colin and I have tried to like link up three more times to climb together in Patagonia as recently as maybe 23 or 24, I'm trying to remember. 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:16.480 Um, but it just hasn't worked out for various reasons, like mostly like injuries on either of our side, both of our sides. 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:16.719 Yeah. 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:30.719 I was just gonna ask if you've had any other, I'll call them unusual partnerships in your athletic career where you get to like it's like two ancillary sports meet and it's like an ambassador from climbing, and then it's like you from like the maybe like ultra trail world. 00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.679 I mean, that's certainly like one of like the bigger crossovers. 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:42.400 I just think in general, me ever having any kind of sponsorship in the cycling world is unusual because I'm not a good a good, I'm not a fast cyclist, you know. 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:56.079 I think I've done some interesting things cycling, but like, you know, there was a point in time where I had like all kinds like an apparel sponsor, a tire sponsor, you know, like I don't know, it's just silly. 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:57.679 A bag sponsor. 00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:59.760 Um, but that was like the peak of like. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.159 Like the cycling boom post-pandemic, you know, and there's a lot of money sloshing around in the industry. 00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.920 That's the industry right now is like low tide. 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:08.719 Is it really? 00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:15.360 Yeah, it's just there's still just like hangover from like the pandemic, like extra inventory, you know. 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.000 It's uh yeah, it's a tough time to be in the cycling industry. 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:22.480 For this audience, because I'm assuming a lot of folks might not know, how would you describe Colin? 00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.280 I really appreciate that. 00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:26.320 That was the other reason. 00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:37.119 Um, and I think this is probably why he invited me to this is so funny to be talking about something from a decade ago, but I think why he invited me to Patagonia was like we just kind of like really clicked on a personal level. 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:45.760 Um because Colin, he's super intelligent, uh he's very rational-minded. 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:50.880 One might say he's on the spectrum, you know, like just like can be very like hyper-logical. 00:44:51.119 --> 00:45:12.159 Um but the most interesting thing about Colin, I think probably our biggest like overlap is not this is good, this is an overgeneralization, but most people they just they accept the status quo, they accept the the way things are done, and and they kind of like follow that. 00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:13.920 It's like, okay, this is how it's done, I'll do this. 00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.840 You know, it's like, oh, you wear a vest, I'll wear a vest, you know, like whatever. 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:21.679 Uh you wear a trucker cap, I'll wear a trucker cap. 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:33.199 Uh Colin is like brutally like logical with his decision making and just like thinks about everything

instead of just accepting the way things are, you know what I mean? 00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:38.559 And uh that's a a quality I really appreciate in a person and find inspiring. 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:43.519 Um and then on top of all of that, like Colin's not a cowboy. 00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:48.559 Like uh, I think there's a been a podcast he's done where they call him like like Mr. 00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:57.199 Safety or something like that, which it sounds crazy because he's done some of the most committing, like cutting-edge uh alpine ascents that have ever been done. 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.719 Um, especially a lot of his like alpine like soloing. 00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:10.320 Um, you know, even if you're even if you're lead rope solo and just being like a a single person in the mountains along high on a peak is super committing. 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:17.119 Um but he's back down a lot, like he's he doesn't cut corners, like he's he's bailed a ton. 00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:22.000 Uh and as a result, you know, I think he's probably 40 now, like he's still alive. 00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.320 A lot of people don't make it that off far. 00:46:24.400 --> 00:46:26.880 Like alpinism is super dangerous, you know. 00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:28.719 Um, and he's still active. 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:35.840 And uh like just last year, I think he was the first person to solo seratory in winter, you know. 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:42.880 Um that's a hugely like seminal event in the alpine climbing world. 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:52.639 When you say that he's critical of the status quo and maybe tries to tinker with like the process for things, is he more of like a means than an ends guy? 00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:55.599 Or does he still care pretty deeply about the ends to like all the time? 00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:57.679 I mean I think the ends drive the means for him. 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:10.400 Um I mean, you know, I've uh I've lived with Colin for a month in Patagonia and uh hung out a few other times outside of that, but like I don't know Colin that well, you know. 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:20.079 But um but when you rope up with someone like you, at least for me, like especially in a comedian environment like that, you know, you're not just cragging. 00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:34.239 Um like I trust him and I trusted him, and uh I would just say I don't think that like put it this way. 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:41.039 I remember we were talking about once about uh basically like like the fatality rate in the Himalayas. 00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:44.480 And he's like people just make stupid decisions. 00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:55.039 He's like, you know, people will be high on a mountain, they're out of fuel, you know, like like stove fuel, uh you know, the fingers or toes are cold and they don't like they don't turn around. 00:47:55.119 --> 00:47:56.639 He's like, just fucking turn around. 00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:01.360 Like say like you're gonna lose digits, you know, like you're you're gonna die. 00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:15.119 Like that kind of like you just have to know, like, like have the humility for like self-preservation, basically, rather than some sort of like ego, like, oh like summit or die, you know, and um, yeah, I don't know. 00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:28.239 Like, so like the reason we didn't summit Fitzroy, we turned around 500 feet from the summit, vertical feet, um, with two technical pitches of climbing left, and then mostly just like third and fourth class scrambling to the top. 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.559 And it's because we went super minimal. 00:48:30.800 --> 00:48:34.800 We didn't, we didn't burn a stove, uh, certainly didn't have bivy gear. 00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:46.079 Um, and if we didn't uh if we didn't repel the route that we were climbing, then when we turned around, the sun was gonna hit it. 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.920 There's gonna be, it's just gonna be a funnel, all kinds of shit was gonna be falling down on our heads. 00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:55.920 Um, and so then we would have been forced to climb over the top, and we didn't have the weather window for that. 00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.719 We didn't have the margin and the material that we had with us. 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:06.559 The one party, we passed like five parties that day, and one party summited, but they had a stove, they had sleeping bags, so they're moving super slow. 00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.599 Uh, and still one of the people in the party got frostbite. 00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:17.440 Um, and we didn't have any of that margin, so we had to bail, you know, two pitches of technical climbing from the top. 00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:25.280 Um and that's fine because you just make you just make compromises like this is the style we want to, this is the only style we're interested in doing it in. 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:27.119 So maybe you're not gonna make it. 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.559 But you know, if you make the right decisions, you also don't get frostbite. 00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:36.960 So he he doesn't he doesn't think that the line for these decisions is messy, it's very and vague, it's very clear-cut and obvious. 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:38.800 He thinks everyone should see this like obvious line. 00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:39.760 It's definitely messy. 00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:49.679 It's like there's always judgment calls, but I think Colin, if you read anything that this is funny that we're going on so long about Colin right now because he's not a runner at all. 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:51.119 And like, whatever. 00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:57.599 Um, and like I said, like I would definitely consider us friends, but like we haven't spent that much time together. 00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:12.800 Um he uh he's just like willing to if you read anything that he's and he writes great trip reports, but they're just like they're so thorough, they're so honest. 00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:19.119 Like most people will like they'll gloss over

something they're not proud of, or they won't mention it at all. 00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:20.800 They'll omit it, you know. 00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:26.960 Um Colin is like down to like the finest detail. 00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:33.920 He'll tell you what he did in the mountains, so there's no and he'll be honest about why he did it. 00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:40.000 Basically, he'll be he'll be like, I didn't do this because I was scared, you know. 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.039 Most people aren't willing to like even admit fear, you know, in in in various situations. 00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:50.000 Um, or at least not so like nakedly, you know, they'll like they'll hedge it somehow. 00:50:50.239 --> 00:51:05.920 Um, and that's something I really appreciate about Colin because he's been one of the most relevant and hugely successful alpine climbers, certainly of his generation and of the last you know, ever since he started doing it when he was like 11 years old, which is insane. 00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:12.320 Um but uh he's also he's bailed a lot, you know. 00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.800 So yeah, I think it makes him pretty unique. 00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:16.400 All that rub off on you. 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:18.480 Like, do you feel like you you you didn't appreciate that? 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:20.400 Oh, I'm a total wuss in the mountains. 00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:20.719 Yeah. 00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:27.360 I uh I'm the kind of guy who if they feel like they're gonna whip, I say take, you know? 00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:29.119 Like take up the slack in the rope. 00:51:29.199 --> 00:51:31.679 I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna hang on the rope instead of whip, you know? 00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:35.039 Uh it's just I don't know, self-preservation, I guess. 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:36.960 Um like to a fault. 00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:41.119 Like that's not sometimes you just gotta go for it in climbing and and it's perfectly safe. 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:46.480 Um but I don't know, it's like not worth it to me to get injured, kind of thing. 00:51:46.719 --> 00:51:52.880 And then was that just like a a super anomalous opportunity, or have you had other like unusual partnerships in the last time? 00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.199 That's so that's the only I mean Colin's the only Wild. 00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:56.239 Yeah, the only one. 00:51:56.320 --> 00:52:06.960 But like I said, like we had, I mean, after that trip, even though it totally sucked, uh, in terms of like on paper, like we didn't get anything done, um, or like nothing notable done. 00:52:07.199 --> 00:52:12.559 Uh like Colin wanted me to go to Alaska with him, and I was just like, dude, like I can't climb the Slovak. 00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:20.559 Like, I I you've seen me, like, but it's just like there's so much more that goes into alpine climbing than like technical ability. 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:22.239 A big part of it is fitness. 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:27.199 Uh, a big part of it is like being able to stand your partner, like being able to live in a tent with them on a glacier for six weeks. 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:31.519 Um, and yeah, I don't know, we got along well. 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:37.280 Uh, but yeah, that's the only like real standout, like anomalous kind of partnership like that I can think of in my career. 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:46.960 Assuming time opens up for you in the future, is this is this an area of uh of endurance sport that you have the motivation to get better at? 00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:50.239 Definitely the motivation to get better at. 00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:53.199 Sorry, I thought the direction the question was going a different direction. 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:57.199 Um yeah, definitely have the motivation to get better at it. 00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:09.280 I don't have like huge motivation to be some kind of uh like doing cutting-edge things in alpinism because I'm in my early 40s now. 00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:23.840 Like even a decade ago, like in my early 30s, like that was starting to be a little that's like kind of when your like real like risk tolerance like starts starts waning, you know. 00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:31.119 Like uh like that same year, like I went through like a huge like free soloing phase in in rock climbing. 00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:34.800 Um, and right now I think I'm the strongest climber I've ever been. 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:37.840 I don't have nearly the same interest in soloing that I did a decade ago. 00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.159 I think it's just a getting old thing, you know. 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:49.840 No, and the thing the thing about high-level alpinism is you have to have all the skills based built over like a huge period of time. 00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:57.519 Um, but there's a ton of objective danger, like you know, you know, which by definition is like stuff that you can't control really. 00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:01.280 Um and man, like objective danger doesn't interest me. 00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:03.039 Like it's not worth it to me. 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:03.360 Yeah. 00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:05.039 Have you ever so uh not solid? 00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:07.039 Have you ever summited Mount Blanc? 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.440 Yeah, multiple times, like four or five times. 00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:11.039 What was the what was the first? 00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:13.199 2013, the first year I was here. 00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:13.679 Yeah. 00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:18.239 I went up with uh Seb Shinyo and Joe Grant on a bluebird day. 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:18.800 No way. 00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:23.840 Yeah, it was just like we were we were t-shirt, we were short sleeves and shorts on the summit. 00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:24.079 Yeah. 00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:25.679 Days before starting that race. 00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:26.719 Oh, not days before. 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:31.840 This should have been probably 10 days, two weeks before, two weeks before, maybe. 00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:33.599 I'm trying to remember the order

of operations. 00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:36.639 We did we did a full tour of the mountain with Seb. 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:44.639 Joe and I, no, we Joe and I went Lesouches to Cormayer, ran with Seb from Cormayer to Champei, and then Champei to the finish. 00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:48.639 And that's what ruined my race because uh I ran with Seb. 00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:55.119 He wasn't racing that year, or no, he was racing that year, but he dropped out in uh Saint-Gervais um super early on. 00:54:55.280 --> 00:54:56.559 Um I don't know what it what happened. 00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:58.800 I can't remember what his deal was, but he dropped out early. 00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:09.840 But I remember just like not, you know, just running a little bit faster than I wanted to be running for that marathon from uh from Cormayer to Champe on day two of like the tour uh with Seb. 00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:12.400 And just stupid ego, basically. 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:19.119 Just like if I'd been running by myself, I'd have been going like five percent easier, and like I don't think I would have like blown up my hamstring. 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:23.840 Um so, anyways, that was probably two weeks before. 00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:27.519 Um, I think ten days out, kindbang. 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:28.400 Yeah. 00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:33.760 But it was there was some there was some adventure built into the training for what UTMB. 00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:38.239 There's all my my training has always only been adventure, dude. 00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:51.519 Like I've never I've done like efforts and speed workouts and stuff in my life, but um when I got done with collegiate cross-country, I like pretty much wrote off like structured training. 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:53.360 I was just like, fuck this, I'm done with it. 00:55:53.440 --> 00:56:00.159 Like, I only want to do you know, kind of just like intuitive progression runs, like tempos, threshold, like that kind of stuff. 00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:00.400 Yeah. 00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:08.480 Okay, so because uh one of the reasons I'm curious is you wrote about this a few years back that like you're increasingly more appreciative of the means to something than the end. 00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:09.119 Always. 00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:19.519 But it but but but but it's but it sounds like you you do have regrets from in years past, but then you also just said that like you kind of appreciated the fact that you weren't hyper scientific about it. 00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:20.800 Well, that's just who I am. 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:28.000 Like I and I don't life is too short to like deny who you are. 00:56:28.079 --> 00:56:41.920 You know, I think you can like change who you are to a certain degree, but like but the the unstructured in it to not be a robot, to not be a a computer algorithm is that's pretty core to who I am. 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:49.119 Um, and so that's something that since college, like I've never been willing to deny, I guess. 00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:59.440 Uh having said that, I've made all kinds of stupid mistakes in my training repeatedly that weren't serving that. 00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:15.119 It was more just like ego, hubris you know, I'm talking mostly about like volume, you know, like if I had just like I don't know, cut the volume by 20% or something, you know. 00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:22.800 So instead of doing like 30 hour weeks, you're doing what 24 hour, 20 hour weeks, you know, that's cutting by more than 20%. 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:29.519 Um I think I would have been just as fit and a lot more consistently healthy. 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:31.760 Um I regret that. 00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:32.079 Yeah. 00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:38.639 So your regrets are just about like an accumulation of days and not like one you don't have like single moment athletic regrets. 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:40.480 Yeah. 00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:41.440 Yeah. 00:57:41.679 --> 00:57:58.239 I mean, there's like yeah, there's UTMB in 2013, it was a it was a a kind of a unique instance in my career where it's like I should not have done that run, you know, leading up to the race. 00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:06.000 Like I should have had the confidence to just like run my own pace that particular day, you know. 00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:09.440 Um and I think I would have come into the race. 00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:14.239 I came into the race definitely like compromised, like injured. 00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:18.159 Um, but you know, I was able to make it 80 miles still. 00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:19.519 That's a long ways. 00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:26.719 Um, so I wasn't that compromised, but if you know, I left the race like limping, you know. 00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:27.840 So whatever. 00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:29.280 But I mean, I don't know, who cares? 00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:30.960 Like this shit's like 13 years ago. 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.920 Like it's just like I'm like definitely beyond. 00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:39.440 I don't I'm not like uh rehashing like the UTMB attempts I had. 00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:52.719 Like, I mean, maybe I mean I think I do think it's valuable in the sense that um and this is a this is a quote that I picked up from a previous interview that we did, but to what extent do you want to be like an ancestor versus a ghost to the current generation? 00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:54.639 Ah, that's interesting. 00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:56.480 Oh, that's really interesting. 00:58:56.639 --> 00:59:09.280 You know, so I think this stuff is very valuable in the sense that there will be a lot of pro athletes that will in a lot of ways admire you and they'll be looking back at your career and they're gonna want to know what to pull from and what to reject, you know? 00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:18.719 Well, it seems to me the last couple years at least, there's been a resurgence in the glorification of like super high volume. 00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:23.360 You know, people people will put in peak weeks like that

are kind of nuts, you know. 00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:36.800 Like, I'm but I wouldn't, I would, I would string them together, you know, like like 160, 170 is like it's definitely not light work, but like that was very common one for for me, like in my peak years, you know. 00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:52.480 Um and people are doing that now, and it seems like it works out sometimes, but they're doing it so differently, you know, like cushy shoes, 90 to 120 grams of carbs an hour. 00:59:52.719 --> 01:00:03.199 Dude, if I got 20 grams of carbs an hour, like I was feeling, you know, like it's like I would do I wouldn't I wouldn't eat anything if I wasn't going longer than four hours, you know. 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.199 Like it's just stupid shit. 01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:08.880 Like truly detrimental stuff, you know? 01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:11.599 So that's that's a regret I have for sure. 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:12.960 Like just not feeling better. 01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:16.159 But yeah, much longer would you have a career extended for, do you think? 01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:17.519 Who's to say? 01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:18.159 I don't know. 01:00:18.320 --> 01:00:19.360 Probably till now. 01:00:19.519 --> 01:00:20.079 I don't know. 01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:28.320 It's like but there's a psychological side too, like I have like lost interest too, you know, to a certain degree. 01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:30.239 In in terms of like pure performance. 01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:40.800 Um definitely in those years, like call it late 2000s, early 2010s, like I cared about my race performances for sure. 01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:47.920 Not enough to like, you know, it was always this tension with like I'm not gonna be a robot about this. 01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:54.480 Um but uh yeah, I definitely I was like trying to prove something for sure. 01:00:54.880 --> 01:01:02.960 To the extent that you're still following the sport, is there anything else that you feel strongly about that you'd want to instruct the current generation on, or at least offer? 01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:10.239 Like if you were serving as like an advisor to not not even Jim and Killing, because I feel like they're really not far on your heels. 01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:11.119 No, it's my generation. 01:01:11.280 --> 01:01:24.159 No, no, it's it's more like the Hans Troyers and the uh I mean go down the list like Rod Farvards, like anyone that Adam Peterman, like they're still like they're like either in, they're squarely in, or they are approaching like the primes of their careers. 01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:29.119 The main thing is just make sure you're doing it for the reasons, like your own reasons. 01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:36.719 Like right now, there's a very obvious hamster wheel of Western States and UTMB. 01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:41.519 And I'm just like, these are the only two races, all y'all care about each year. 01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:54.320 Like, this this is the only thing, this is the only thing that's like interesting to you is to like run these two races, you know, like because that's what's incentivizing contracts, and uh it's what's incentivized to like get paid. 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:57.920 And you absolutely need to get paid. 01:01:58.320 --> 01:02:04.800 Like, I have made a living getting paid to run, which is I'm forever grateful for. 01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:08.639 But uh I don't know. 01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:20.719 Is everyone who's doing this stuff like they care that much about like slurping carbs and carbon plates and you know, it's just like it's pretty reductive. 01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:23.679 It's pretty like it's pretty bland at the end of the day. 01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:31.280 Like so left left to their own devices, you think that without that incentive, this sport is like massively spread out? 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:32.480 I think so, yeah. 01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:33.280 Don't you? 01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:41.599 Like, I mean, whenever you incentivize something with money, like it's gonna concentrate it, you know, like because you need money to like exist in a society, you know? 01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:52.880 Like, I'm not I'm not anti-money, um, but uh I think something for me, like I've never had a coach outside of uh high school and college. 01:02:53.119 --> 01:03:02.639 And what I've always told myself is like, or what I've always told other people is like like the the activity is like too personal, it's like too meaningful to me to like delegate to somebody else. 01:03:03.039 --> 01:03:10.320 And I mean, I think like your homies with Caleb, he's like switched coaches. 01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:23.760 He seems it seems like he's he has like some angst about at least like Western states, and he's like in an extraordinary position now where like he's won the fucking thing, like he can turn his back on it if he wants, which is kind of sick. 01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:28.559 Uh but like like it's just the ultimate flex, you know, but like like great for him. 01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:36.239 Uh but like so now it seems like you know he's he'll probably be like on that UTMB treadmill until he wins it. 01:03:36.400 --> 01:03:42.159 Um, but he strikes me as a person who's like not purely like competitively motivated. 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:48.800 Yeah, I mean, uh just to illustrate that, he was here last year sort of on a recon mission, but also I think doing some stuff with ACG. 01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:57.119 But I I mean I think there was a there was a three-day stretch where he did consecutive summits of Mount Blanc just because he couldn't get enough. 01:03:57.280 --> 01:03:58.239 Three three days in a row. 01:03:58.400 --> 01:03:58.960 Three days in a row. 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:00.960 And I think I just think that's just like ridiculous. 01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:02.719 And he just loves mountaineering. 01:04:02.800 --> 01:04:04.960 I think he genuinely loves mountaineering and like alpinism. 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:12.559 I mean, the goûte route,

it's just literally a walk-up, like there's nothing technical, you know, like um, which is the only route I've ever done on my satiates him. 01:04:12.639 --> 01:04:14.079 Like, I think I'm like the soul of. 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:16.800 Yeah, like high alpine, like, yeah, somebody. 01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:18.000 I I totally get that. 01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:22.159 Yeah, I'm um, yeah, I mean, it's cool because how old is Caleb? 01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:23.440 Just turned 30. 01:04:23.599 --> 01:04:25.280 Well, he's young still, yeah. 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:31.360 But you know, a couple of years of my turn, you know, just in terms of like his motivations, I don't know. 01:04:31.599 --> 01:04:40.000 Um, but I mean I'm sure like the support he's getting from Nike right now is if I were him, I would be 100%. 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:41.360 Like it's not gonna last forever. 01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:44.800 Like, you know, soak it up, like bank it basically, you know. 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:54.320 For you, especially like squarely in the prime of your career, what percentage of your start lines were based on inspiration versus obligation? 01:04:57.360 --> 01:04:59.679 Well, I mean, I was inspired by competition. 01:04:59.920 --> 01:05:00.559 Yeah, that's true. 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:01.679 So it didn't really matter. 01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:02.960 Yeah, exactly. 01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:09.760 Um I never had huge incentives, like performance incentives in my contracts. 01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:13.840 There was you probably remember the what do they call it? 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:15.519 The Ultra Trail World Tour? 01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:17.039 Ultra Trail World Tour. 01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:19.599 And then there was the um Ultra Race of Champions stuff too. 01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:20.960 Well the UROC, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:25.920 No, but the but like the there was like it was like sort of like it was a precursor to this, yeah. 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:26.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:05:27.039 --> 01:05:32.559 And um, I was with Buff for gosh, I don't know, six or seven years, something like that. 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:33.519 Seven years. 01:05:33.760 --> 01:05:36.800 Um, and they were very like performance driven. 01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:43.199 And I had incentives in that contract for or just like I would get support for races. 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:50.079 Um like that's probably the only reason I was ever slated to run uh Ultra Tram on Fuji. 01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:54.800 But that was also like an opportunity to go to Japan is insane. 01:05:54.960 --> 01:05:59.440 Like I haven't been, well, other than like for a layover, I haven't been back to Japan since, you know? 01:05:59.599 --> 01:06:06.960 Um Um, so that one doesn't really count, but that's like why I raced Transgrand Canaria. 01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.199 I remember because it was like incentivized my contract. 01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:10.719 That's a sick race, though. 01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:11.679 I thought so. 01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:15.519 I thought it was just I mean, gosh, this is already a decade ago, so it's hard to remember. 01:06:15.599 --> 01:06:23.199 But I remember thinking at the time that this is a really cool course, except for like the last 20k, like in the fucking drainage canal or whatever. 01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:26.400 But uh Nass Palomas is is scary, I think. 01:06:26.639 --> 01:06:27.280 Wow, dude. 01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:39.920 All those islands are I always had so much angst on those islands because you go to these resorts, they put the race puts you up in these resorts, and you're just like stuck with all these tourists in the hotel, and you're just like, oh, this is gross and like kind of uncomfortable. 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:42.480 And I don't know, at the same time you're there for a race. 01:06:42.639 --> 01:06:43.199 That's the other thing. 01:06:43.280 --> 01:06:44.559 Races are so limiting, you know? 01:06:44.719 --> 01:07:02.800 Like it's like before the race, you're just trying to like chill and relax, and then after the race, you're all like fucked up and we can like barely waddle around, and like um, so like it's not you're not allowed to I don't know, it's not a trip on your own terms, it's a work trip, you know, which is fine. 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:06.800 That's it's like you choose to do it, can't complain about it really. 01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:08.320 Maybe we end here. 01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:14.000 Once this busy period of your life subsides, you get the permits, you get married, all that good stuff. 01:07:14.239 --> 01:07:15.360 Yeah, you get the permits. 01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:17.039 What's the first thing you reclaim? 01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:20.639 What's the first thing that you want to invest back into that you lost the time for? 01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:30.239 Uh the first thing, which will hopefully happen this winter, is uh as the days get shorter, yeah, a better reading routine. 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:33.760 Like, I mean, I just have to, I was just it's so funny. 01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:37.679 I was um listening to this podcast just last week. 01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:39.360 Was it Broken Record? 01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:40.719 Broken Record's great. 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:41.440 Yeah, is it? 01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:41.840 I don't know. 01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:46.079 I don't know, like the I don't know the musicians on the I I always choose by the band mostly. 01:07:48.239 --> 01:07:49.199 I think it was broken record. 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:50.800 They had uh Daniel Kessler on there. 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:51.280 Yeah. 01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:52.639 Who you fan of Interpol? 01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:54.320 I love Interpol. 01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:56.159 Yeah, I mean they're legends. 01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:59.760 But anyways, uh Untitled is like the famous one, right? 01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:01.599 That's the it's crazy. 01:08:01.679 --> 01:08:04.800 It's the first track on their first album,

yeah, and it's called Untitled. 01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:06.480 Sickest song of all time. 01:08:06.639 --> 01:08:07.280 It is a great song. 01:08:07.360 --> 01:08:07.920 Yeah, yeah. 01:08:08.079 --> 01:08:11.920 Anyways, uh, but they've had lots of other hits like in subsequent albums. 01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:17.199 But um I always thought of Interpol as like Paul Banks, like the like the lead guy, you know. 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:19.920 But Daniel Kessler's like kind of a lady guitarist, I guess. 01:08:20.079 --> 01:08:32.800 And he was on uh and Interpol, you know, they always had this like super aloof, cold, fucking just like the black suits, you know, it's like goth adjacent, you know, post punk, whatever. 01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:34.800 Um stage presence. 01:08:34.960 --> 01:08:37.359 So you all it always just felt like too cool for school, right? 01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:41.039 But this dude Daniel Kessler, like he's just like such an artist. 01:08:41.199 --> 01:08:50.000 He's just like he starts every day, he puts on a film, makes coffee, and like plays his guitar while he's like the film's like in the background. 01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:54.560 You know, you know, he might be writing, he might just be like, you know, whatever, practicing. 01:08:54.800 --> 01:09:02.720 Um, and he's like, I'll wake up early, like before an early flight, in order to like do that um before I get on the flight, even, you know. 01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:18.159 And it's funny because that is what reading over coffee in the morning has been like really my entire like life, like since college, like since grad school, is uh like if like if I have a big day, like I'm like an alpine star where I like I don't know, I mean the buddy, like 3 a.m. 01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:19.039 or something. 01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:20.479 I won't wake up at 2. 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:25.840 I'll wake up at like 1.30 so I can like get the like the coffee and reading in beforehand. 01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:31.439 And uh so yeah, it's important to me to like and I have to read in the morning. 01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:34.000 If I read at night, I'll read for three minutes and fall asleep. 01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:36.319 Um so yeah, reclaim that. 01:09:36.399 --> 01:09:37.039 That's the first thing. 01:09:37.119 --> 01:09:47.680 And then two is uh it'll be like an off-season commitment to regular the last few years. 01:09:47.760 --> 01:10:05.359 I feel like I've had very strong summers, and then the off-season rolls around, and it's all of a sudden like I'm I'm exercising like an hour a day or something, you know, and like and it might be just like a bike ride, which an hour bike ride is like almost like sitting on a couch, like you're doing nothing, you know. 01:10:05.600 --> 01:10:16.640 Um and I would like to keep the momentum like through the winter, but like sidebar, like I'm almost certainly gonna get Achilly surgery in November. 01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:28.319 Um, yeah, I've just been putting it off for a decade, and it's been a productive summer on the physical front, but it's just time to like have more reliability in my running, you know. 01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:30.319 What's the timetable for recovery? 01:10:30.560 --> 01:10:31.439 Like three months. 01:10:31.600 --> 01:10:34.720 Um, I'll probably end up going to the same surgery that Andy Wacker used. 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:37.199 Uh and I don't know. 01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:45.199 Andy was younger, but he got his surgery done in March and he raced Mount Marathon July 4th. 01:10:45.359 --> 01:11:01.199 And he was like, Yeah, that was probably a little bit aggressive, but like I was doing like, you know, I was able to do like a VK avert, you know, like and um so probably three months is like the minimum, I would say, because I'm probably like end up being like a decade older than he was when he got it done. 01:11:01.279 --> 01:11:01.840 But yeah. 01:11:02.239 --> 01:11:05.119 Well, this is less a question, it goes back to to Daniel. 01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:14.960 I and I don't know why I discounted it or I threw it away, but it it is interesting how important, even outside of sport, routine is for art artistry. 01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:18.399 And I mean it's it's it's hugely important for sport too. 01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:22.079 Like, I mean, I don't know if you want to consider sports fine people that might be. 01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:33.760 But uh yeah, um yeah, you have to because it's like because if you're not doing the thing every day, then like are you really even an athlete, an artist? 01:11:33.840 --> 01:11:34.479 You know what I'm saying? 01:11:34.560 --> 01:11:44.640 Like, like if you're not creating anything, if you're not like putting any time into it, like to me, like the doing is what defines who you are. 01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:45.920 You know what I'm saying? 01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:51.039 Like you can you can talk about something all you want, but like if you're not doing it, are you really that that? 01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:53.199 That's the way I feel. 01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:54.079 I don't know. 01:11:54.479 --> 01:11:56.079 Very last question, I promise. 01:11:56.239 --> 01:12:00.159 Uh I I want to come back to Colin on this, actually. 01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:03.279 If if you could pick I did not expect this agreement to be bought Colin. 01:12:03.680 --> 01:12:04.479 I just find it so interesting. 01:12:04.640 --> 01:12:14.239 If you could pick if you could pick anyone from any other endurance board or ultra to partner with in a similar capacity, who's someone that comes to mind? 01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:16.720 Oh, that's actually an interesting question. 01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:20.399 Um what would you maybe do? 01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:21.680 Yeah, yeah. 01:12:22.079 --> 01:12:26.960 Like again, this is this Stefan is different, but like the long speed traffic was really cool, like stuff like that. 01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:28.239 Yeah, but that's what you're gonna see. 01:12:28.399 -->

01:12:33.439 It's gonna it's gonna have to be a climbing thing because uh the other stuff I prefer to do solo. 01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:42.960 Climbing, we've already talked about soloing or mentioned it, uh, doesn't interest me as much anymore, but uh it's like it mandates a partner basically. 01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:46.399 Um although I've become curious in like lead rope selling. 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:54.159 Uh but anyways, uh I don't know, man. 01:12:54.399 --> 01:13:02.079 I would like to do a bike trip that so this was already five years ago. 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:08.479 I did this trip linking up a lot of peaks kind of in the northern Rockies, like Wyoming, Utah. 01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:09.680 Gannett stuff like that. 01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:12.800 Yeah, Gannett, up and then granite up in Montana. 01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:28.640 Um I would like to do a technical version of that, like like not the solo um uh you know peak bagging version of that basically, but like real fifth class, um, you know, stuff where you're gonna want to rope. 01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:31.920 Um and uh that requires a partner. 01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:44.000 Uh I'm doing something like that plan for next summer in Colorado uh with my buddy Danny, but something like bigger, further afield, you know, like a month long, not like a week or two. 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:48.720 Um it's tough to find someone who can take a month off, though. 01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:56.079 And also like again, that you can like basically be on an expedition with for a month. 01:13:56.159 --> 01:14:03.760 Like it requires like a real like meshing of personalities um and priorities and skill sets and all that. 01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:05.359 How about Max Kilcoin? 01:14:06.479 --> 01:14:13.680 Max Killcoin! No, uh Max and I there's there's some things I'd like to do with Max. 01:14:13.760 --> 01:14:18.399 And uh like one thing, I don't even know if I want to put this out there because I don't want someone to snake it. 01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:21.199 But last year, two years ago, when was that? 01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:30.399 Two years ago already, he like attempted the LA freeway in winter, and I was like, motherfucker, like why didn't I think of that? 01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.399 Um, that's a huge project though. 01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:33.359 Like, you have to have the window. 01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:36.560 Like this last winter, when we basically didn't have winter, was the winter to do it. 01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:40.720 My Achilles was in a complete non-operable state. 01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:42.479 Uh, and Max was here in Chamony. 01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:52.720 But uh yeah, no, Max is uh I like Max, he's 20 years younger than me, which is insane to say. 01:14:53.039 --> 01:14:54.239 Um, but I don't know. 01:14:54.319 --> 01:14:59.760 I like having like people, like I have someone like Buzz Burrell or Bill Wright in my life. 01:14:59.840 --> 01:15:06.880 They're in their 60s, you know, I'm Buzz is in his 70s, who I consider good friends and and partners and stuff, and uh have done stuff with. 01:15:07.039 --> 01:15:17.439 But then it's cool that like I am the same age compared, like I'm 20 years older than Max, which is like the same age that Bill Wright is older than me, you know. 01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:20.880 Um local guy in Boulder is just Bill's a legend. 01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:21.600 Yeah, yeah. 01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:32.159 Um and so it's it's it's been fun the last couple years to be at a point in my life where I can like serve that role for somebody else. 01:15:32.720 --> 01:15:41.920 Like the upcoming, I mean, you know, Max is undeniably Gen Z, you know, but he's also like a little bit of an old soul, you know, like he's mature, he's a mature 22-year-old, you know. 01:15:42.079 --> 01:16:01.439 Um not that he's not like going out and getting wasted and stuff, because I mean he definitely is, but like, which is what you do in your 20s, but he's also just like uh I mean you know, he and he and Colin have like hooked up for some stuff too, but like uh he has like a surprising lack of ego about him, which is really cool. 01:16:01.600 --> 01:16:09.760 Uh it makes it easy to like want to partner with someone when they're like willing to back off of stuff, basically, yeah. 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:12.640 But but he also he he does bold stuff too. 01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:13.199 So yeah. 01:16:13.520 --> 01:16:16.960 I asked Scott about this too because I knew Scott had a relationship with him. 01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:19.359 Scott no the oh no, this is a different topic. 01:16:19.439 --> 01:16:20.319 Uh Scott Jerk. 01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:20.880 Oh, okay, yeah. 01:16:21.119 --> 01:16:24.000 Uh as a pre Did you watch the Dean Potter docuseries? 01:16:24.159 --> 01:16:25.119 Yeah, of course, Dark Wizard. 01:16:25.199 --> 01:16:25.439 Yeah, yeah. 01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:26.319 What'd you think? 01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:27.840 Oh boy. 01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:30.239 Um, first of all, did you know Dean? 01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:32.239 I yeah, only through Scott. 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:38.239 Like I had dinner with him a couple times at Outdoor Retailer, um, with like the jerkers and and Dean. 01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:42.079 Because like Dean was like, I my understanding has seemed like like pretty good friends with them. 01:16:42.159 --> 01:16:44.399 Um yeah, I mean him and Jenny, I think we're really close. 01:16:44.640 --> 01:16:46.479 Uh I mean they climbed Half Dome with him. 01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:47.680 They saved Scott's life. 01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:49.520 Yeah. 01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:52.399 Their firstborn is called is named Raven. 01:16:52.880 --> 01:16:54.000 That's something. 01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:56.079 I think we can guess where that came from. 01:16:56.319 --> 01:17:05.279 Uh yeah, uh yeah, Scott um was it's when they were, it's when Jenny and Dean were going up to climb half dome together. 01:17:05.439 --> 01:17:10.720 The approach to Half Dome, not that

I've ever done it, but as I understand it, is like some fifth-class slabs. 01:17:10.880 --> 01:17:20.640 And uh, you know, Scott's game, but he's, I think he would admit, like afraid of heights and like just not a competent climber in any sort of way, you know. 01:17:20.800 --> 01:17:34.319 And so if you're like scrambling these like fixed lines kind of things to get up there, and I think he just like got to this point where like he was like gripped or pumped or something, and Dean was flowing and he had to like like literally like lift him from below, like put his head in his butt and like hold him up, you know. 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:38.880 But Dean was like apparently like Superman, you know, like uh yeah. 01:17:38.960 --> 01:17:48.079 I mean, there's other stories of him doing stuff that just I mean Dean saved his own life by like I mean I think it was in the dock actually, but like base jumping, like literally grabbing a fixed line. 01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:49.119 That's insane, dude. 01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:54.640 And like burning through your hands, like anyways, uh yeah, I watched the Dean documentary, yeah. 01:17:55.119 --> 01:17:58.960 But I but I was definitely not friends with him, barely acquaintances. 01:17:59.039 --> 01:17:59.199 Yeah. 01:17:59.439 --> 01:18:01.600 When you what impact does that documentary have on you? 01:18:01.680 --> 01:18:04.319 Or what what how did it what did it make you think after the fact? 01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:06.159 What impression did it leave on you? 01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:16.159 Just like how uh like how how much mental health like affects all aspects of your life, I think. 01:18:16.560 --> 01:18:22.720 Like Dean, it was surprising to me the bold stuff Dean was doing. 01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:26.239 It seemed like his motivations were really kind of fucked up. 01:18:26.319 --> 01:18:26.960 I don't know. 01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:28.079 It's kind of a bummer. 01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:32.000 It made me like a little bit like sad for him a little bit, I guess. 01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:50.960 To feel like you needed to put yourself in those kinds of positions where you were pretty obviously out of control in like where like the consequence is death, um in order to like either feel good about yourself or like yeah, just like feel okay with yourself. 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:51.920 Like that's a bummer, dude. 01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:56.000 Like I just it's it's a real bummer if that's where you're at in your life, I think. 01:18:56.239 --> 01:18:58.960 Um yeah, I don't know. 01:18:59.119 --> 01:19:13.520 But I thought I think the thing that just because he dabbled in it at the very end, like just a couple weeks before he passed away, uh, you know, Dean had the speed record on Half Dome, and you know, Nick Elson, I think, has it currently. 01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:20.720 Um and he wanted to do it by soloing Snake Dike, but Nick's a super like experienced and competent climber. 01:19:20.960 --> 01:19:26.000 Um but uh didn't

want to solo Snake Dyke. 01:19:26.079 --> 01:19:41.359 Um, but also like if you just look at like the the objective like metrics of Dean's record before Nick broke it, um I don't know, like 5k avert and like a buck fifteen or whatever he did to the summit is like that's true fitness, you know. 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:50.319 Like Dean was obviously a very high-level climber, but like at that point in Liz Life was very aerobically fit, and he was, I think, my age, like early 40s, you know. 01:19:50.479 --> 01:19:54.399 Um so clearly an impressive athlete, I guess. 01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:55.119 Yeah, two things. 01:19:55.760 --> 01:20:06.640 But I guess just saying, like, I remember he and Jerker, there were like conversations about like the JMT, like doing the JMT together, like, which is kind of wild. 01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:18.079 Like, like Dean, like such a prominent climber, just like I'm gonna just go like into pure like ultra endurance, you know, for this, but you know, JMT was his backyard, and yeah. 01:20:18.319 --> 01:20:23.760 I was blown away by all of the supporting enviews that they got and how great of storytellers each of those people were. 01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:27.680 Like the old guy that was sitting on the crash pad, he could just rap. 01:20:27.760 --> 01:20:31.279 And like, I don't know how they could-I don't remember who that was in other crash pads, but yeah. 01:20:31.439 --> 01:20:41.760 And then Honald versus him, like how fierce that was, and how like it just Dean wouldn't do something basically once Honald had like just the competition there, and how that seems funny. 01:20:41.920 --> 01:20:49.520 Like, that's that's like why collaborators, but they were just like warriors. 01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:54.640 You have to have some kind of like sympathical, you know, like to be collaborate to collaborate on something. 01:20:54.800 --> 01:21:09.600 But uh yeah, you know, it's just like it seems like Honald and like Tommy, like they're like the ultimate partnership, you know, and but there was a point in time where it seemed like yeah, Honnold and Dean would have been a very logical, you know, on paper, but that's not worth anything. 01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:10.880 Uh yeah, I don't know. 01:21:10.960 --> 01:21:20.880 I guess I just like ego and competition, I don't like ragging on it because a lot gets accomplished because of those things. 01:21:21.119 --> 01:21:26.560 Like, I mean, I think Honnold so as much as admitted in that doc that that was the case. 01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:34.079 It's just like he's just like, yeah, I just wanted to like crush people's hopes and dreams, basically, you know, like and Dean just happened to be the guy at the top. 01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:37.840 Like, without whoever was at the top, I was gonna like try and crush them, you know. 01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:44.159 Um, and that's I mean, I can identify that that was absolutely my attitude in my 20s, you know. 01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:56.560 Um I think it's silly to think that there isn't ego and competition in like a quote unquote soul sport, especially you know, climbing's hugely diverse. 01:21:56.720 --> 01:22:06.960 There are like formal competitions now, it's in the Olympics, but there can be competition on something as like esoteric as like big wall speed climbing, you know. 01:22:07.119 --> 01:22:10.720 Um don't fight it, just compartmentalize that aspect of the sport. 01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:29.680 Yeah, it's and I don't know, it drives you to achieve things too, which I think is like I think especially in your twenties and into your early 30s, that's like even fine, that's totally fine and like maybe inappropriate. 01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:30.640 Natural. 01:22:30.880 --> 01:22:32.800 It's I think I think it's natural. 01:22:32.960 --> 01:22:41.039 You're trying to you're trying to prove yourself, you're trying to like sh like figure out who you are, like what your identity is, like what do I have to give the world, you know? 01:22:41.199 --> 01:22:48.000 Like, um, and that takes like ambition and ego and self-centeredness is the main thing, you know. 01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:50.399 But yeah, you think you've given the sport? 01:22:50.640 --> 01:22:52.000 Oh god, dude. 01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:54.079 That that is truly the last question. 01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:57.039 Yeah, what if that's a tough one to finish on. 01:22:57.359 --> 01:23:08.479 I guess what I hope I've given the sport, I guess, is just an example of like okay, here's the way that like most people are doing things. 01:23:08.720 --> 01:23:11.439 It's possible to do things maybe your own way, too, you know. 01:23:11.600 --> 01:23:15.039 Like, um, you don't have to. 01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:20.800 I think maybe that's what like my generation of the sport had to offer the sport, you know. 01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:22.319 I don't think it was just me. 01:23:22.479 --> 01:23:43.279 Um, but just like not optimizing for performance, but instead being a little bit more uh expansive about who you are, or like you know, I would I don't want to say true to who you are because I think that's offensive to people now who are like so focused on racing, but maybe that is just who they are. 01:23:43.359 --> 01:23:46.000 Maybe they wouldn't be doing this if that wasn't who they were, you know? 01:23:46.239 --> 01:24:03.840 Um but uh yeah, it's just that there's a like another way to engage with the sport, be in the sport that isn't just where performance is the only metric that you're like that's driving your like engagement with the sport. 01:24:04.159 --> 01:24:08.239 If someone had said you were anti-establishment, would you have embraced that description? 01:24:08.800 --> 01:24:11.680 Yeah, I'm allergic to the establishment is the problem. 01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:15.119 That's like I hate that because I don't like contrarianism either. 01:24:15.199 --> 01:24:23.279 Like, you know, I don't think it's because I think when you're just being contrary, you're like being as controlled by the mainstream as if you're just following the mainstream. 01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:39.520 Um, but uh I would say like something that is pretty core to who I am, but uh that I'm also like not proud of is like just like being allergic to like mass movement, like crowds. 01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:40.319 I don't know. 01:24:40.479 --> 01:24:42.479 It makes me want to go in the other direction. 01:24:42.960 --> 01:24:44.159 Appreciate you so much, man. 01:24:44.239 --> 01:24:44.720 Thanks for the time. 01:24:44.800 --> 01:24:46.720 And uh hopefully we can do this again in the next year. 01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:47.199 Cool. 01:24:47.279 --> 01:24:47.760 Thanks, Van. 01:24:47.920 --> 01:24:48.479 Thanks for having me.