TRANSKRIPTIO 🔗
Michelle: Well, hey everybody and welcome back to Qualified - the place where incredible people share their stories of overcoming great adversity and loss to inspire you and give you hope. I'm Michelle Heaton. For those of you who may be new to the show, the biggest loss in my life was the death of my 17-year-old son, Sean. I share that story and the purpose of this podcast in episode one. And have since interviewed other guests on different types of loss.
So, with me today are two very important people in my life. TJ, you are Sean's half-brother and Jamie, you are, TJ’s better half. You two are here visiting us for the holidays and kindly agreed to sit down with me to record this episode of the podcast, dedicated to the memory of the best human being we knew -Sean. TJ, can you give us your take on your brother's personality and also tell us about your relationship with him?
TJ: Yeah. I feel like my relationship with Sean started as a brotherly role model figure early on and very seamlessly developed into a mutual, just solid friendship, where maybe at some point he might've even been the role model. Um, and, and I feel like that transition happened when I started realizing who Sean was. And, and what his, if I could describe his personality within this, it would be someone who was thoughtful, with an ease.
I feel like he made everybody feel comfortable and happy and push limits of things that he loved. He introduced things at the right times and in the right moments and with the right people. His personality was that of an entertainer, but, but also like, the comforter within the situation.
Yeah. I always feel, he knew who he should introduce things to and what that was. And he always had different things in different hobbies and different likes, but not everyone got the same bits and pieces. But he knew how to navigate those people and those loves that he had that he wanted to share.
I think just his personality came through as, his passions and his loves and, his desires, to connect with people with those passions. Yeah.
Michelle: Well, for both of you, can you think of any specific memories of Sean that stand out?
Jamie: Yeah. So, you know, TJ and I have been together for 16 years now. I can't even do the math here on the spot of when I, when I first met Sean. And I just, I mean, I just knew immediately, like how lucky I was to kind of just be in his orbit, you know, just, he was just one of us in a way that was so like just, it just almost amazing for such a young person that we would go and we would just remember we'd play basketball and the stuff like the magic mountain stuff. And, and I, I think some of my favorite memories of Sean, when he was 15 and 16 and, and hanging out with us, playing Settlers of Catan at our friend's house and how Sean would be with these adult people and just seamlessly integrate. His energy was just, just unmatched by anyone I've ever known. And the biggest memories I have are kind of the smallest things. I remember making our first like, cheeseboard at friend's house.
And so, like the fancy cheeses and the honey and the jam and him just being like, oh, this is amazing. We got to do this all the time. And, and his, his ability to just hang with us. And you know, what I love most about people is just, that time and that connection, and it was never like entertaining a kid with Sean. It was like being with, with our person being with this just amazing soul.
TJ: Yeah. I mean, my favorite moments with Sean are, are just the same. The moments looking at, a small iPhone and sharing videos, like music videos, or a lot of trailers to movies., and one specific moment like that was, when he first got his truck, and he was a little bit like, ah, I wanted something with a bigger engine and, more, you know, more along the lines of like an SS.
But I, rode in the back of his truck and he was driving and I believe Nick was in the passenger seat. One of our good friends and. And Sean, he was just so comfortable in the front seat, and it was, it wasn't the, the truck, it wasn't the drive. It was, the music that stands out the most., he was excited, to play a new artist for me. In his truck, but the music was the centerpiece. Um, and, it was magic. It was, I remember just looking at one of my best friends and my brother, my other best friend and being so happy, that, he also nailed the music choice. I feel like it was a perfect soundtrack for that moment.
And those are, those are all the moments I love. He, he always knew. That perfect soundtrack.
Michelle:. He's definitely an old soul and he, he was aware of music and I don't know what song it was, but ASAP Rocky. So that stands out in my mind.
Jamie: I think sometimes Sean's the way that he was just like, one of us always felt like maybe TJ and I were going to get in trouble by doing things. So maybe we're a little bit above his pay grade.
I don't know. I never seem like that, but we took him to see a movie, but that story.
TJ: We, we all shared a love for movies. And I think, the love shared with Sean was like, oh, this little dude likes the same movies I liked. And so, we were all into it. We were all into seeing a Quentin Tarantino flick in the theaters and it was Inglorious Bastards, and I just remember we walk out of the movie theater and I'm like, oh my goodness, what did I just see in? What did I just introduce my 12-year-old brother to, and I turned to him and he's as shocked looking as I am.?
And I say, so what'd you think of the movie? And his response was priceless. Um, I don't know right now, uh, I'm going to need some time and that scared me even more than the movie, because I was like, oh gosh, I’ve traumatized my brother. I've done it. So yes, that's he loved it. He loved the movie and it was, it's still one of my favorites and it was one of his, but.
Michelle: A good memory, good memory.
Well, TJ, you came into my life as my new son when you were about 11 years old.
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And then Sean came along a few years later and you not only welcomed him into your life, but you are an amazing big brother to him and he loved you. And he looked up to you so much. And I remember when you traveled to Tanzania as a teacher, to help, educate children over there.
Sean wore the ring that you gave him on a chain around his neck. The whole time you were gone to keep you close. And he even wrote an essay in his English class, about that ring and about you, because he was so proud of what you were doing and who you were. And. The two of you, actually, the three of you talked about him coming to live with you in Colorado after graduation, and you were making plans for the future, and then you learn that he passed away.
So what emotions were you feeling when you heard that?
TJ: I think the, the biggest emotion I felt was confusion., I remember Jamie came to my school and I was pulled out of the class. I was teaching and I, I didn't know why she would be there, but I knew it, couldn't be good, and I walked into the room and she told me that Sean had died and I attached that message to every other Sean I knew. Yeah, it just couldn't be real. And so, I was always confused that she was telling me that someone had died, that I wasn't close to. She had an old boyfriend named Sean. And then I realized, that it was Sean., and I was still confused about how. Oh, someone so young and inexperienced and experienced and, and so close to me could just not be there anymore.
And so, I think there was a long-lasting feeling of this can't be true. Um, but, but it started from a very, very hard-line confusion of like, I don't actually know a Sean that could die. so I think, I think I'm still confused by it. , it's softened in the confusion of why, why it would be him or how it could be him, but it was, it was a deep level of like, I don't even know who you're talking about.
Confusion. It didn't make sense. It didn't make sense. I was, I was confused myself, that something could happen to Sean because it just didn't seem possible. Yeah.
Michelle: I'll shift gears a little bit. Jamie, you're the mom to two beautiful boys. Harrison who's four and Myles who's one. And both of your boys have the same middle name. Can you tell us about that name and why you chose?
Jamie: Sure., our boys are both, they're both middle named Hawk.
And the Hawk thing is very funny in some ways, because so the initial Hawk thing was at Sean's funeral. There was this beautiful Hawk. Gorgeous, flying over the site, at the cemetery. And I, I just fixated on that Hawk the entire time, just because of the difficulty of the day and just feeling really just connected.
You know, I was spiritually connected, I think, to that and with TJ and I both, you know, saw this Hawk flying over and, and talked about it. After that., I'm not much for bird spotting as it turns out. And so, after that day, I would, I would see like a vulture flying in the sky and I'd say, TJ, it's a Hawk.
And he's like, that's a Turkey vulture, Jamie. And so, we, we just like would laugh about how much Sean would think that's hysterical that I was so bad at bird spotting, that I was finding these spiritual connection moments, in these Turkey vultures that are all over the place where we live in Colorado.
And over time I've gotten much better at spotting Hawks. And I have to say that we've seen a ton of them. I remember right before Harrison was born, we were driving into La Vita, which ended up being like the night, essentially, you know, before the morning that Harrison was born and just had never seen a Hawk on this post as, I mean, we drive this road all the time and generally.
I tend to, in my expert bird spotting these days, I tend to catch them flying., but it was just sitting there and looking right at us in this beautiful Hawk right there. And it was like, I, you know, I was, I was about to be a first-time mom and I just remember being like, oh, things are going to be okay.
And, and I think that, you know, in the time., that we've been parents for, you know, four years now. And, and we just, that, that imagery has helped connect us to Sean a lot because when we're doing something special and we're doing something outdoors, we get to talk to Harrison about, Sean. For me, at least has just been really special, kind of a constant reminder, that we get to talk about all the time and, and naming the boys, you know, when we named Harrison, we were certainly, we were only going to have one child.
When we found out that we were going to have Miles and we were talking about names and I was like, well, he’s got to be a Hawk too. And so that just really, I, I love that. And, and we, we talk about it all the time with the boys. You know, this is a big part of their family lore that they didn't get to meet Sean, but they are part of Sean and they can carry that.
Michelle: I always think it's neat too, because it's such a unique, name that you don't hear that I think when people ask it's an opportunity to talk about Sean too, with other people.
And so, his memory.
Jamie: Absolutely. Yeah.
Michelle: I know that you both had matching tattoos and I think it had something to do with the ring that you gave to Sean. So, can you talk about why you had those tattoos?
TJ: Yeah., so Jamie and I got, these carbon fiber rings, these black carbon fiber rings, and. I lost the next day. Out on the golf course., and, and so we didn't have matching rings anymore. And we were, we're telling Sean this story and try to figure out what to do with these rings., should I get a new one?
Should we get two new ones? and Sean really liked the carbon fiber ring. He really liked the black, black color. He wanted it. And instantly we knew that it was for Sean., so we gave Sean, Jamie's wedding ring and he kept it, he ended up getting a, like a beaded necklace, a silver beaded necklace that it went around and he wore it around his neck.
And when, when Sean died, we decided, to
further carry on the love of the ring and, and the, the memory of Sean, getting Jamie's wedding ring. And so, we each got tattoos around, our ring fingers, that would forever keep the ring on my finger and allow us to be connected to Sean, and the ring that he wore around his neck
Michelle: the same way he was connected to you. Jamie, your birthday's April 10th, which is the anniversary of Sean's death. Does that change anything about your birthday and if so, what?
Jamie: It was my 30th birthday, that Sean died. And, and I remember, I remember the scene that TJ talked about earlier. Like it's, hey, I don't know. You know, if that's something that trauma does to you that. I could just remember every moment that John, Sean and TJ, his dad, John called me and I assumed he was wishing me a happy birthday.
We had plans to go to a show that night and you know, I was in law school in Colorado. And, I'm just re I remember where I was in our house. And, and, you know, once I understood what was going on, which I echo that it, it didn't seem real or possible, but driving to school for TJ. And I just, you know, threw up in the door and left the car running.
I mean, it just, I just remember every moment of that. And, you know, I, I thought at the time, that it would really feel like a tragedy every year, forever on that day., and we had a friend, a dear friend who said, you know what, what a, what a powerful day that can bring someone to the world like you and take someone like Sean., and I think about that a lot.
That day for me now. I mean, it, it marks the passage of time in a way that seems unreal still, you know, it's such a, I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, but I also think that, you know, for us, the best way to get through this the entire time has always been to think about Sean and to talk about Sean
you know, I think that, yes. I mean, it certainly has changed that day because that day means something entirely different. But at the same time, I can't think of a better time of year for me to think about how fortunate I am to have been in his orbit and to love him. So.
Michelle: I just remember him talking so much about the two of you and it was so evident to me how much he loved you and how special he thought you both were. And so, the connections now, I mean your birthday and everything and, the naming of your sons to me is just profound. So.
Michelle: So, TJ, back to the hard stuff again, you know, and Jamie talked a little bit about, you know, getting word and finding out. And I remember that moment for me too. I sort of do and sort of don't because it was like a blur, but Scott reminded me in a conversation we had recently about just a part of it that.
Kind of flashes back on and he broke down when he told me about it and I just didn't even remember. So, but anyway, there's that there's like the immediate, right. And then. Day one day two and waking up the next morning. It's reality. And one of my previous podcasts we talked about sometimes the second year was worse than the first, you know?
Um, how did you cope? Like what w how did you cope with your grief early on?
TJ: Oh, I think a lot of, a lot of my grief. I was like wrapped in, in denial and, in, constantly thinking of like, replacing Sean’s death with mine or, or someone else’s, There was a lot of likes, why him and not him, why him and not her, why him and not me.
I remember that as like, I couldn't get past it. I would attach it to like actual people. I would attach it then to age groups. I think that was like my deep and semi long-term initial kind of like trying and trying to figure it out., and then at some point, quite a way later, it was, kind of redirecting those thoughts into, into memories.
And that's, that's why like, you know, we have art commissioned, of a beautiful photo of Sean and our boys have his middle name and, and we tell stories. And so, it switched from kind of like, trying to turn it, trying to reason it and trying to play the white game, to, carrying his legacy and making, making Sean as alive as possible.
And, that came with stories and, remembering experiences and, and the cheese platters, those kinds of things. And now it's shifted, but it was oh man, it was, it was a large circle circular kind of thought process of better scenarios in my own world.
And so I guess that's, it is, is I just, I had to go from situations in my mind that were like not healthy of putting Sean's death on other people to embracing Sean's death as a way to carry on his life. , and now Sean lives forever in it because we have, we have stories and we have purposeful stories and we have, , I guess physical tokens that we can draw our attention to, to remember Sean and every Hawk we see is, is another story that we tell about Sean to ourselves, into our boys.
Michelle: I think, um, thank you for that. You know, we were talking before about the, the reason that we do this and it's so hard. And, but I thank you because it's so hard to even discuss grief with people that we love, you know? I know I haven't had this conversation with you before and hearing, some of the things that you went through and the details of it.
It's hard to describe. I don't want to say it makes me feel good because don't get me wrong. It doesn't, but. I liken it to photos of him. I have looked at every photo of Sean, a million times. Every one, but out of the blue, sometimes some friend will send me a picture that I've never seen of him before.
And I go crazy. It's like seeing him again. And so, hearing this, it's very sad and, and hearing the pain in your voice as sad, but there are memories that you have that I didn't experience and I'm experiencing them now through you. So, my last question, and this is what the podcast is really about.
Are what lessons, what valuable life lessons can you share with someone else who might be listening to this podcast who might have just lost them. Or somebody that they really love way too
young, like we did., what can you say to them that might help them because we're eight years out?
Jamie: you know, for me as a mom, I think, the lesson that I've learned is that you still can't be afraid to let your kids live their lives. And I think. I think about it all the time, right. That you want to, you want to bubble-wrap these children and keep them forever and make sure, you know. Michelle, you’ve gone through the, the most trauma that, that anyone can.
Right and so I think about that all the time of you can't. Sean's death. I mean, that, that would be the worst way to carry on his life is did to not let our boys live, you know, to not let them skydive or ride motorcycles or do, I mean, do whatever it is that they want to do., and I think about. All the time of like that Sean lived exactly as he should have.
And that part of his brilliance was the way that he got to do those things with all kinds of people and just live his life. And so, I try really hard to not let it impact the way that I, that I parent my boys and to make sure that their lives are full of love and adventure and that, you know, that we just recognize that that, that that's the best way to live.
So, I, I think to not let the tragedy define us and to let Sean's life define us and to use those good parts and do, and do all of the things that he should be doing right now, you know, and to think about him all the time.
Michelle: I love it.
TJ: Oh, I mean, I just think about what keeps Sean alive for me is all of the, the memories that I hold and those, those special times with him.
And I think, what, what continues to get me through it. And what, what did after, after I had a heavy grieving was. I was hanging around with people that could share those moments with me and recall those moments and keep them alive, and relive them. And so, I mean, ultimately, it's like have us have as many moments as you can with someone, if their life is shorter, like you still have a lot of moments, and beautiful times.
Of that person to, to carry on. Right., and so to me what I was able to hold on to was, those moments. And they became more visceral is as I shared them. And as I, I relived them in my life over and over., and so that's, it it's like the, the lesson I learned was, every little moment with someone is a big moment.
It's really precious. So that's it.
Jamie: Okay. I think one other thing is we, we get to use Sean, like with Harrison miles is not old enough for this yet, but I think that we both do it, that when Harrison is particularly kind or generous or creative, or let me say, man, that reminds us of uncle Sean, you know, he was, oh, he would have just loved that or just, you know, using those.
Like he's become my car, our spirit guide. As we, as we raise our boys to, to, you know, he is the epitome of a beautiful, good person. And so, when they, when they get to do that and we get to tell them that they're just like their uncle Shawn,
Michelle: That's beautiful. You guys. Thank you. And thank you for agreeing to talk with me and for being so open and honest about your feelings, about the loss of your brother.
And for those of you listening, I hope that you were able to take away something comforting in the lessons that Jamie and TJ shared about how they grieved and how they healed, and how they memorialize and continue to honor and remember the life of their dear brother and friend
And as always feel free to reach out to me at callmequalified@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you.
Thanks for listening.