Jakson Why Data Burnout is a Business Risk, Not a personal Failure täydellinen litterointi

00:05:39.920 So I think absolutely it's a really intrinsic part of what we need to uncover and unpick. 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:44.720 Yeah, and you're right, like well-being is about the whole body too. 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:51.519 It's around the um physical, mental, and the emotional side of things as well. 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:59.839 Um, and as you mentioned there, mindfulness about being present, that's really important aspect of um well-being, too. 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.199 So um great to hear your thoughts on what well-being means to you. 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:08.399 And what was your first experience, uh, Lucy, of well-being in the workplace? 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:11.600 Yeah, I think or lack of it, I think. 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.319 You know, it's like an unhappy customer, they're always happy to talk about where you went. 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:27.680 And I think for me it was quite, it was quite early on in my career where I realised by what what good didn't look like, right? 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:27.920 Yeah. 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:34.480 And I worked uh in retail and I was completely exhausted, but I didn't really have the language for it. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:41.360 Um, and I was a manager, and you know, I'd have to be there for like shipment deliveries that'd arrive at like four o'clock in the morning. 00:06:41.519 --> 00:07:00.639 So, you know, there'd be no public transport, or they'd like send a car for you, you get there, it's like the middle of the night, you feel like you should really still be sleeping, um, but you then you'd have to unload, unpack, merchandise the store before it opens, then deal with a hundred other things, getting the store ready, dealing with staff issues, etc. 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:01.199 etc. 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:10.879 So then you know, I'd like start at four in the morning, work till 10 on my feet all day, and I'd do like 18 days straight without a day off. 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.759 And one day I literally collapsed, ambulance called in hospital for three days. 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:24.720 They did all sorts of tests, like everything on me, and then the doctor at the end of the three days was like, uh, you know, I was like a read then. 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:26.399 He was like, this read, you know. 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:32.319 Um, he just said, you know, you basically just exhausted and it's stress and exhaustion. 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:38.000 And I was like, I wasn't even 30, and I was like, wow, this is this is crazy. 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.560 So I resigned not long after that. 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:49.600 Um, and I just thought, yeah, I can't really, I can't really carry on like that because it was a really, it was like an expected thing. 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:54.720 So it was expected as a store manager to sort of carry that load to bear that brunt. 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.680 I wouldn't have proper rest periods, didn't eat well, you know, maybe grab a sandwich, you

know. 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:12.639 And I think, you know, you just don't, you don't eat eat well, don't hydrate, you know, I was like a size zero for years, you know, and that world has sort of changed exponentially since then. 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:17.360 But now I'm sort of like more online on cause rather than you know, face to face. 00:08:17.920 --> 00:08:26.800 And I hear lots of people start saying, Well, just in back to back, you yourself, like you know, we often go, well, just like back to back and how can I cram stuff in? 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:46.559 But I'm really trying to be really intentional about like scheduling and and actually making sure that I have breaks between stuff and really like if I can't fit them in, you know, then I just can't fit it in, and I'll have to go right to the next day or or the next week and go, it's okay, right? 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:57.919 Because sometimes, you know, it's it's just too much to just be staring at the screen and then having to be present for every single call, like all the time. 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:09.039 Like, I just don't think you're productive, and I don't think you give as much as you could give if you were able to stagger things and to have some time in between, right? 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:18.480 To think about solutions that customers have have got, you know, you're just not your your full kind of firing on all cylinders at that point. 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:20.320 Yeah, no, 100%. 00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:26.080 Yeah, and it's funny how um stress can show out, can come out in different ways as well. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:33.120 You know, there um you ended up in hospital, you know, you're working very long shifts and things like that. 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:43.360 Like our body will show stress in lots of different ways as well, and you don't always associate that with work, you just think, oh, what's what's wrong with me? 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:55.840 But actually, it's because of the stress that you're experiencing work or that you're unhappy, you know, mentally might feel a bit down, um, stress like your body can feel tight. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:59.600 Um, you know, there's lots of different things, sore back, shoulders, etc. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.519 That's not just from being sat in front of a screen all day, for example. 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.159 Yeah, that can also just from being stressed too. 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.840 So, yeah, lots of variety of ways that that can show. 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:15.039 And it's great to hear the journey that you've been on as well, of knowing how to manage that yourself. 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:28.799 And that's so important of learning what works for you and how to manage that, and building that into your everyday routine and being able to tell yourself it's okay, I can't do it all, and that's absolutely fine. 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:41.759 You've always just got to reprioritize and just be like, I am a human, I can't do it all, and actually, I won't produce my best work if I try as well. 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:43.120 Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:44.639 And I don't get it right all the time. 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:57.919 Like, I believe they are not perfect at this stuff, but I am getting better, and I think I think once you kind of have it in your head as well, like you it's almost like like you just want to try harder to to get better at that. 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:08.159 And I think you know, kind of going back to you, like you spent, you know, almost like 20 years in the day two industry, you know, and it's like what was that? 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:14.879 I know that obviously, like you've said that you've you've you've seen people, you've had it yourself, like that burnout. 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:25.759 And but what was was there kind of any kind of like a harm, a kind of that you realized that it wasn't just part of the job, that it was a systematic issue that we needed to address? 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.440 Yeah, um, so yeah, quite early on in my career, I think I experienced um burnout. 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:55.679 So just like working late nights, um, you know, as you said, really long days because you want to get a project delivered on time, and maybe hadn't gone to plan, there'd been Scope Creek, you know, working on data projects, you're working with so many different people, data, it's not always the data isn't always doing or being as you expect it to be as well. 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.879 So um it can just happen again and again. 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.200 And for me, I thought maybe to start off with, was I doing something wrong? 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.200 Um, you know, maybe I cared too much, what did I need to do? 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:22.320 You know, so I did some work on improving my soft skills, you know, how to ask the right questions, how to communicate better, um, learning how to say no to things, you know, so reprioritizing, some of those things as well. 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:26.799 But it did still exist um for me and others around me as well. 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:43.360 I think that's the key thing for me, seeing what others are experiencing too, especially like my friends, like yourself in um my network, but also as a line manager too, seeing what like my team were experiencing as well, and thinking about how I could help them. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:48.639 So, yeah, there's definitely things like skills that you can improve on, but that's not it. 00:12:48.720 --> 00:13:05.440 It's others around you, how you're working with others, how the data in industry works as well, um expectations that others put on you too, in terms of what you need to deliver, to what timing, all of those things. 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.519 Yeah, I think that's a really fair sort of evaluation. 00:13:09.679 --> 00:13:14.960 I think you know, there's some, you know, because we like data people, we like a stats, right?

00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:24.960 Yes, and so um the Monte Carlo Wakefield research survey found that 97% of data engineers experience burnout. 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.960 Now, when I hear that number, I'm like, Crikey, did I did I get that right? 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:34.720 And what does that tell you about the reality of working in the data and just lighting data today? 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:37.279 Yeah, I mean, it's really sad. 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:42.960 Um to be honest, it's really sad, and but it doesn't surprise me though. 00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:44.879 It's really sad, but it doesn't surprise me. 00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:50.000 As I said, everywhere I've worked, always experiencing it, right? 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:58.559 Like um we're always over stressed with projects, not enough resource, but we're still expected to deliver the volume. 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.120 I mean, I've got that right now where I'm working, but it's not just the case right now. 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.039 As I said, everywhere I've worked here, I've experienced this as well. 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.919 You're expected to deliver, but you don't have the right resource in place or enough of it. 00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:25.200 And I think to me, lots of companies still really don't know how to use data in the right way to guide their business choices to know how to make impact that they want to make. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:31.279 Many companies say that data is a priority, it's really important to them. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:44.320 But from my personal experience and from you know my friends and my network, there's very few companies I know of where it actually really is prioritized and they understand how to use it in the right way. 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:53.200 And I feel like that's part of it of why we're always overstretched, experiencing burnout in our roles, because we're just asked, can we have this? 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:54.240 Can we have that? 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.080 Can we get this? 00:14:56.240 --> 00:15:00.159 You know, the scope isn't necessarily always clear. 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:06.480 Um, we're asked for multiple different things, it can change a lot, which you know, change is absolutely fine. 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:22.799 But I think having that clarity at that senior level of what it is they want, how it will be used, getting that in place first would then really help um the like decrease the impact that then that that has. 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:24.720 Yeah, yeah. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:25.360 That makes sense. 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:28.799 And it's often yeah, no, it's like that trickle down effect, isn't it, as well? 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:42.879 You know, and I think then the line managers will understand like what's the priority, what's this, you know, is it capability, is it, you know, um, you know, capacity, like like problems, like what, you know, what what can we do? 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:44.240 How can we solve those things? 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:48.559 But but again, you know, I often think like it's not rocket science this stuff, right? 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:50.559 Or am I missing my missing a trick? 00:15:50.639 --> 00:16:05.360 I always then think it's about you know, it's about communication, it's about that kind of holistic thinking, that whole kind of like you've you kind of got to involve like lots of different stakeholders to bring them to the table to go, okay, what are we missing here? 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:17.360 Or we kind of think you know, if you bring in an external you know, consultancy as well that's got no lived experience of of this, then you just kind of then you know get given a PowerPoint or whatever. 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:42.559 I mean, not all consultancies, obviously, not all digital, but you know, but but it's kind of like you don't you don't just want you know to be throwing a PowerPoint and then go, okay, you know, this is this is what you do because like you said, they might not understand you know everything that's going on underneath, and you know, and obviously your senior exec team probably far more removed than than that as well, right? 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:56.799 So if the right stakeholders are also not making a rather table to help make informed decisions together, then you know we're we're gonna have a a bit of a you know a bottleneck, right? 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:00.080 And it's and it's gonna come unstuck sooner rather than later. 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:19.519 And that also like like leads me on to like that that's the stuff we can see and we can feel and that we hear, right, in our colleagues' voices and team members, and that kind of look of angst or like silent, like you know, they're like, oh my god, like they're making me do that again. 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:24.720 And then and then there's also that invisible, that invisible kind of load, you know. 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:34.079 So from your experience, you know, what are the pressures or expectations in data roles that people outside the industry often don't see? 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.400 Um, and but these things massively contribute to burnout. 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:40.400 I'm really interested to hear your take on that. 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:41.519 Yeah, definitely. 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:52.559 I mean, as you said, there's like some obvious ones that you can be sat at your desk um like all day, just sat in front of a screen, coding, typing. 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:59.359 Um, so therefore, like the physical side of things, um there's that as well. 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:04.960 But you're also from the cognitive side of things as well. 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:13.599 Your brain is like we're working on very intense projects, you've got to be constantly like really thinking about what it is you're doing. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:20.720 Um, so sometimes it can be easy to become disconnected as well, your body and your brain as well, because you're in your

head all day. 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.839 So sometimes you can't, I mean, can just forget to move, right? 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:31.200 Can sit in that same place for hours on end, not in the correct posture, build up tension, those things. 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:37.200 Um, and you know, our bodies are designed to move, have that natural move movement as well. 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:45.839 And moving helps regulate mood, reduces stress, improves improves your attention and your um memory too. 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:52.000 So lots of things there too, and obviously screen time, there's lots of effects on that as well. 00:18:52.240 --> 00:19:00.480 A couple of other things though, which are probably less obvious, are there can sometimes be constant switching between tasks. 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:02.480 I'm feeling that today, 100%. 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:10.160 Um, that actually you've got to, you know, you're trying to multitask and spin many plates. 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:24.079 Um, you've got to respond to this, you've got to um be part of this call, you've got to be part of this call, um, you've got to actually have time to write some code on something, or to build a report, or to build a model. 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:29.119 Um, and so actually that constant switching between tasks is really difficult as well. 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:46.000 And remembering, I mean, I know, so I always say to my team, like, you tell me, like, if you need extra time, absolutely fine, because I know it takes time for you to kind of switch off on one thing and be able to pick yourself up on something else, like it takes that time to just switch between those things. 00:19:46.160 --> 00:20:05.599 Um, unclear brief, which we've which I've mentioned already, but again, like having um maybe somebody or role or just being able to know what that clear brief is, like constant scope and the brief, um your stakeholders. 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.960 And again, it's probably just because they don't know what's possible. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:17.759 So, like maybe they're just not really clear on what it is that they want, um, they don't know what data's there, they don't know what it is that they can get. 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:25.920 So, unclear briefs is a big thing where you're having to change things multiple times, the project gets bigger and bigger. 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.440 So, really important, you know, to be really clear right at the very start. 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.279 I think that I constantly as well. 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.000 There's this constant upgrading as well, right? 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:41.519 So, you know, all of the tools out there that we can use, um, such a suite of them. 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:46.000 Obviously, we've got AI now as well, how you can use that. 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:52.319 There's this constant upgrading pressure too, like on yourself, but from your workplace as well. 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.079 Like, do you know this? 00:20:54.400 --> 00:20:57.279 We need to, we need you to learn this new tool. 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:04.240 We need to make sure you know you know you can code in these three separate different tools, um, etc. 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:14.400 Is that pressure that you need to be constantly upgrading yourself, but then not giving that time to spend on that and thinking about different ways to learn as well. 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:27.200 Um, and then related to that, there's this like expectation from stakeholders and maybe senior managers and stuff to be like an all-rounder within the data world as well. 00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:37.599 You know, there's lots of different data jobs, you know, you've got data engineers, designers, data analysts, data scientists, BI analysts, lots of different roles, right? 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:53.759 Um, and actually, you could be sat in a meeting and there's an expectation that you will know any question related to data, but that's not your like that's not your area of expertise to know that. 00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:59.519 So we kind of also push to whilst digging in deep and having this constant upgrading. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:15.599 certain things you're also expect it to like spread thin as well and have this overall or rounder knowledge too um and obviously all all of that really contributes to well being as well. 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:50.160 So what made you decide to create mind over metrics and why now yeah so um I had a role um which I was uh my role was made redundant and um I took that opportunity to do some contracting work but also have a bit of a think about actually what is that I really want to do, what motivates me, what excites me, you know, thinking about my wellbeing as well and putting myself first, my values first. 00:22:50.400 --> 00:23:12.880 And actually what came out of that is that I really enjoy making an impact for others, helping others and I made a goal myself for this year to be braver and to do things that I actually want to do that will excite me and that align to my values as well. 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:17.279 So it's always as I mentioned at the start something that's been really close to my heart. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:45.200 I've had experience of coaching others in um when I've managed teams um I've also coached people around wellbeing I've had several um people in my team when I've managed that have been quite stressed on the verge of burnout um too and so I've really enjoyed helping them and as I said it's like they're passionate about their work and they care about it. 00:23:45.279 --> 00:27:18.400 But actually when you put in your own work ahead of yourself your health and your priorities it's not a great place to be in yeah um and so for me this is that's that's the reason why and the reason why now and I mean the stats also they just speak for themselves right it's a real issue within the data world um and there's no specific data focus wellbeing support out there

as well um so I thought why not yeah fill that I love it I absolutely love it and I think you know I mean I have obviously known you so I was just like fully endorsed like if you if you when you're in the room like you kind of you light things up which is great but tell for our audience as well like what would those kind of like how how does it work like like about the workshops what would what do they kind of like look like give give me some kind of yeah yeah mix for that yeah so there's um two elements there's um a coaching element which focuses on one-to-one um so this can either be for somebody who's maybe experiencing burnout right now um be having a look at their wellbeing understanding what their issues are how have they reached that um point and then working through um a personalised wellness action plan that suits them um but also on that side of things it could also be um coaching like one-to-one for a manager or a leader as well so that could be somebody that maybe is new in that role um needs a bit more extra support around wellness well-being and how to actually help their team in that um area then I have workshops as well so these are designed for more groups and they're around two and a half three hours long they focus on wellbeing so physical mental and the emotional um elements having a look at where you are now what impact does that have on you your work and then we go through um some proven methods and teach some techniques as well and we turn that into a wellness plan so a wellness plan is the actions that you would do and take to improve your well-being all of it is personalised to um data roles and the well-being challenges that we face so for the workshops it can either be for teams of uh individuals or it can be for um leaders and managers too fantastic so you're kind of like covering all the bases there so basically you know you're kind of like supplying that you know like that that need right that's that's in our teams and I I I can already you know just kind of count on one hand like I I know people that are you know struggling right and and again it's that that shift those changing the roles and the focus and lack of management support as well and things like that and just like getting behind stuff and then again we haven't even well I think we mentioned AI once but you know like there's this there's this race right to to to get to the bottom of the cliff so it it it's putting this additional pressure on on everyone as well because we're still having to carry on as business as usual right as well um and and and just get on with it. 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:42.160 Well Natasha thank you so much for a lovely conversation today and I think really helpful for our viewers out there that are maybe struggling for things or think they might know someone so if anyone is like struggling or it's hit a nerve and you want to learn learn more please reach out and I'd just love to put you in touch with Natasha so that's it for today's show.