Jakson Before & After Pt. 2: How Math Therapy changed Lauren Keeling's life (4 months later) täydellinen litterointi

and I know you're thinking of that person you need to send this to, so take a second to pause and do that right now, and then let's get into it. 00:02:35.574 --> 00:02:36.033 Oh my God. 00:02:36.033 --> 00:02:36.373 Okay. 00:02:36.373 --> 00:02:37.943 Lauren, welcome to the podcast. 00:02:37.963 --> 00:02:39.403 I'm so excited you're here 00:02:39.858 --> 00:02:41.598 Oh, I am delighted to be here. 00:02:41.695 --> 00:02:45.454 I've been counting down the minutes to my moment again with you 00:02:45.781 --> 00:02:58.030 this whole tale begins because Lauren flew to get math therapy from me in person as part of The Heart Work podcast series, which was a deep dive on math anxiety. 00:02:58.030 --> 00:03:02.644 She literally flew across the country to come to my place to get math therapy in person. 00:03:02.644 --> 00:03:08.163 So we had the most amazing time, and now we are going to do a, a, what is this? 00:03:08.223 --> 00:03:09.653 A pr- an epilogue? 00:03:09.663 --> 00:03:11.204 A after the fact? 00:03:11.204 --> 00:03:12.024 A denouement? 00:03:12.024 --> 00:03:13.033 Like, what is this called? 00:03:13.382 --> 00:03:14.111 A follow-up? 00:03:14.873 --> 00:03:16.903 Right, yep, yep, that's what it's called, a follow-up. 00:03:16.913 --> 00:03:17.984 We're gonna do a follow-up. 00:03:18.441 --> 00:03:22.200 Can you tell us who Lauren was, like, pre-math therapy? 00:03:22.200 --> 00:03:26.961 Like, if I had asked you then,"Who are you in relation to math?" how would you have answered? 00:03:27.381 --> 00:03:33.681 I'd wear a T-shirt that says,"Not a math person." Truly, that is the best way to describe me. 00:03:33.721 --> 00:03:43.834 I wrapped myself into, snuggled into that identity so deeply and thoroughly and just lived it, right? 00:03:43.854 --> 00:04:07.174 Like, I was not a math person, so much so that, um, on my first job interview for my first teaching job, I said,"Not a math person." When I was thinking about the career I wanted when I went into undergrad, the very first thing was, the one that has the least amount of math classes that I have to take?" So, I think just to, you know, put that in a really succinct moment, it's just I was not a math person, and I 00:04:07.436 --> 00:04:08.026 Hmm 00:04:08.563 --> 00:04:10.234 Who I was was not math. 00:04:10.253 --> 00:04:17.824 And even more definitively, I was never going to be a math person or never going to be math in any capacity. 00:04:19.081 --> 00:04:20.262 Oh my God, that was perfect. 00:04:20.262 --> 00:04:31.291 The T- I think the T-shirt visual is, it gives me a vision of, like, everyone on social media right now that is, like, liking all of the memes and reposting all of the reels that are like,"Not a math person. 00:04:31.302 --> 00:04:33.961 Don't talk to me about math." Like,"I've moved on," that kind of thing. 00:04:33.961 --> 00:04:38.572 So it's kind of nice to have you, a real person, on the screen. 00:04:38.572 --> 00:04:46.682 Not that we're all the same, but somebody who's like,"Yeah, that's how I would have described myself." I remember during our interview together Because, I mean, let's back up a bit. 00:04:46.872 --> 00:04:50.052 You were flown across the country to come do Math Therapy in person, right? 00:04:50.052 --> 00:04:52.961 You were the, like, the, the, the main character of this. 00:04:53.182 --> 00:05:03.312 How did you feel as, like, this being your journey, being like,"I'm about to go investigate math anxiety, and as a part of that, I have to dig into my own math anxiety"? 00:05:03.312 --> 00:05:04.512 What was the vibe around that? 00:05:05.122 --> 00:05:14.211 So in the big picture, I thought this is gonna be a great concept to explore because having, being a math person, I'm not a math person, is a community. 00:05:14.242 --> 00:05:16.632 And, and search for each other out in the world. 00:05:16.632 --> 00:05:23.391 As we're moving and talking and thinking and asking questions, we're like honing in on who our other not-math people are. 00:05:23.721 --> 00:05:29.851 So I really thought the conversation was critical, and, and it felt important to be curious about how everyone else navigated. 00:05:31.721 --> 00:05:46.812 I say that in that weird way because the last thing I wanted to do was navigate my own feelings about math I held firmly to who I was, what I was, what I believed about math, what I believed about my own ability about math, what that relationship was in my everyday life. 00:05:47.541 --> 00:06:06.791 And when my team pitched that they wanted me, wanted me to center in on this conversation and sort of, um, explore what it really was through the lens of Lauren Keeling, and then ultimately little Lauren as a child, it just made me really, uncomfortable. 00:06:06.831 --> 00:06:10.271 Now, I would do anything for my team because I trust their vision implicitly. 00:06:10.271 --> 00:06:15.372 We've been through this work a lot together, and, um, they're smart, and I love that they're smart. 00:06:15.752 --> 00:06:27.661 But personally, when I grappled with did I actually wanna peel back the layers of what was ultimately gonna be this onion of my math feelings, just didn't know that I actually wanted to. 00:06:27.701 --> 00:06:40.432 So when we booked the tickets, when my team found the hotel, when we started thinking about what we were gonna eat while we were there, I still really felt skeptical about any real or lasting change coming out of the work. 00:06:40.442 --> 00:06:46.692 And not because I, I doubted anything that The Math Guru was or say or help me think through. 00:06:46.692 --> 00:06:51.701 I, I knew a lot about you and learned a lot about you and believed in, in everything that you talked about. 00:06:52.632 --> 00:07:00.601 just didn't believe that had the capacity to any of those changes and then ultimately make them real. 00:07:03.557 --> 00:07:03.767 Hmm. 00:07:03.767 --> 00:07:06.067 I also wonder, I remember during our time together, you said something.

00:07:06.127 --> 00:07:08.737 I mean, I love what you just said here because this ties in. 00:07:09.208 --> 00:07:21.187 You had said something during our, like, Math Therapy session a few months ago where you were like, yes, it's partially that you don't know if you're able to change, but wasn't there a bit of a resistance to changing? 00:07:21.187 --> 00:07:31.327 And part of that reason being, I love how you just put it, being not a math person is a community, it's an identity, and if all of a sudden you were gonna change that, what happens to your community? 00:07:31.382 --> 00:07:36.341 Cause it's funny, you're like,"I didn't know that I didn't think I believed I could change." Is part of it that you didn't know that you wanted to change? 00:07:37.045 --> 00:08:03.814 I remember this really specific moment where we're just toward the end of our 27-hour conversation, um, 27-hour math therapy session, and we're snuggled into our seats and you said something about,"So do you-- you've kind of-- your identity has changed a little bit, right?" And I had just all that great work that we had done together, all of that conversation, I had this internal moment of panic where I think I even said out loud,"Does that mean that I'm a math person?" 00:08:05.841 --> 00:08:07.050 Yeah, like not in a good way. 00:08:07.081 --> 00:08:08.750 Like, you didn't say it in an excited way. 00:08:08.834 --> 00:08:15.855 I was not thrilled about this revelation and this potential shift in Lauren Keeling, the human being of the world. 00:08:16.295 --> 00:08:18.295 Um, so even in 00:08:18.535 --> 00:08:19.625 But tell us why. 00:08:19.625 --> 00:08:20.504 Yeah 00:08:20.735 --> 00:08:22.214 I-- it's who I am. 00:08:22.663 --> 00:08:23.562 Yeah 00:08:23.704 --> 00:08:26.365 maybe even as we started this podcast, words are my business. 00:08:26.365 --> 00:08:27.464 Words are what I know. 00:08:27.475 --> 00:08:28.415 Words are what I do. 00:08:28.425 --> 00:08:33.365 I, write, I talk, I think out loud, I ask questions, I synthesize, I say things. 00:08:34.075 --> 00:08:35.195 don't do numbers. 00:08:35.274 --> 00:08:36.845 And how does that change? 00:08:37.664 --> 00:08:40.004 that change what I'm good at? 00:08:41.024 --> 00:08:43.004 Does that change what I know best? 00:08:43.174 --> 00:08:57.304 Instead of, get to this I'm sure, time with you and the subsequent conversations after with so many other people, it doesn't necessarily change the composition of who I am. 00:08:57.304 --> 00:08:59.105 It just expands my world. 00:08:59.105 --> 00:08:59.215 It 00:08:59.778 --> 00:09:00.298 Hmm. 00:09:00.585 --> 00:09:02.345 of even bigger and even larger. 00:09:02.345 --> 00:09:11.445 So I was not there in that moment of panic where I said,"Does that mean I'm a math person?" I just hadn't arrived at that space yet. 00:09:11.445 --> 00:09:24.455 But it was a pivotal moment that, that kind of opened up this road for me or opened up this pathway that I didn't ever really consider

as something I could step into or I could engage in. 00:09:24.455 --> 00:09:32.725 I, I mean, I'm speaking at NCTM, NCTE in a couple of weeks, which I would never, ever have applied to. 00:09:34.264 --> 00:09:36.715 yes, absolutely give me the teachers of English. 00:09:36.754 --> 00:09:37.245 Love it. 00:09:37.475 --> 00:09:38.934 We're together always and forever. 00:09:39.304 --> 00:09:43.544 Anything with the M at the end of it, I always tell my team it's just not my space. 00:09:43.625 --> 00:09:44.375 I won't connect. 00:09:44.394 --> 00:09:45.514 This won't work for me. 00:09:46.465 --> 00:09:46.725 Yeah. 00:09:48.490 --> 00:09:59.350 I'm so proud of you! Okay, and for those of you listening, so NCTE is National Council of Teachers of English, NCTM is National Council of Teachers of Math, and they do, they've started doing this joint conference, and I actually feel like you're, like, the reason. 00:09:59.630 --> 00:10:02.301 Like, I feel like this is, you should, like, be keynoting this conference. 00:10:02.510 --> 00:10:02.921 Do you know what I mean? 00:10:02.921 --> 00:10:08.541 Like, this is the whole point'cause, yeah, because the whole point is to show that the two subjects are not divided. 00:10:08.541 --> 00:10:09.730 But hold on, we're getting ahead of ourselves. 00:10:09.740 --> 00:10:10.610 Let's back up for a sec. 00:10:10.910 --> 00:10:13.880 Because you're making me think a bunch of things. 00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:17.640 Like, I'm like, oh, it's so interesting that you were like,"I don't want my identity to change," right? 00:10:17.640 --> 00:10:18.770 That you had this resistance. 00:10:18.980 --> 00:10:28.500 And it's making me think, you know, people have different reactions, but I think what we've started noticing is we want to be, we want everyone to feel like a math person. 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:30.020 We wanna tell everyone they're a math person. 00:10:30.020 --> 00:10:43.091 When someone says they're not a math person, we wanna jump in and be like,"But let me l- list you all the reasons why you are." And actually, I have noticed, and I know a lot of people have noticed, the result is not what we want, right? 00:10:43.091 --> 00:10:48.591 It's like mo- we want people to have this aha moment and be like,"Oh my God, amazing," but that doesn't happen. 00:10:48.591 --> 00:10:50.860 I think part of the reason is they don't believe us, right? 00:10:50.860 --> 00:10:52.410 They've had no experience to prove otherwise. 00:10:52.630 --> 00:11:01.760 But you're touching on something really important that I don't think we're considering, which is a lot of folks are like,"I don't want my identity to change," because it's not just about the math. 00:11:01.770 --> 00:11:04.431 Like, not being a math person is about other things. 00:11:04.441 --> 00:11:06.100 I wonder if we can dig a bit deeper. 00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:16.260 Like, you said, not being a math pers- because I, I, because I think this helps us understand our students, our friends, our counterparts that say they're not math people, and why they hang on so much to it. 00:11:16.520 --> 00:11:18.280 Part of it is they really believe that. 00:11:18.280 --> 00:11:20.341 Part of it is that they've had negative math experiences. 00:11:20.671 --> 00:11:26.740 But let's dig a little more into this idea of why were you upset that you might be a math person? 00:11:26.740 --> 00:11:27.870 Like, what would that mean? 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:30.240 Would it, would it mean some other things about you? 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.030 Would it take away from what you are good at? 00:11:32.030 --> 00:11:32.490 Like, what were... 00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:36.801 I know you can't speak on behalf of everyone, but I'm curious, like, what was going through your mind? 00:11:37.543 --> 00:11:50.712 So for me, being a words person means I'm good at words, and that communicates to the world that this is something that I have capacity to be skilled at, that this is something that I can produce for you, and make meaning of. 00:11:51.533 --> 00:11:57.452 To then adopt,"I'm a math person," or, or,"I math," right? 00:11:57.543 --> 00:12:00.403 Or,"I can be a mather," as our dear friend Deborah says. 00:12:01.381 --> 00:12:09.192 There is a level of expertise that comes with a statement like that, that I don't feel like I own or that Or that I have. 00:12:09.591 --> 00:12:22.562 So by saying,"I'm a mather," I'm kind of telling the world that I'm here for math and can do it confidently and side by side, and, you yeah all of these things with math. 00:12:22.562 --> 00:12:34.322 And I think that's a really critical identity change for me because I, as most people, I hope do, please don't let me be alone in the world in this, I only really like to dive deep into things that I know that I have an understanding of. 00:12:34.642 --> 00:12:37.591 That isn't to say that I don't like to be curious about everything. 00:12:37.601 --> 00:12:41.261 I wanna know all the things about all the things that everybody loves and wants to do. 00:12:41.672 --> 00:12:52.481 But when it comes to me, um, sharing my understanding, sharing my thinking, sharing how I conceptualize things, I want it to be a space where I know I have some confidence and some, mastery. 00:12:52.912 --> 00:13:08.532 And I still don't necessarily believe that I have the mastery of math as a concept to be able to claim being a"mather" I have attached expertise to it in a way that's actually probably really unfair to that beautiful statement 00:13:09.511 --> 00:13:20.231 Well, I'm sure, I, I think there's, there's so much going on here too, because I think that's why Deborah Peart came up with the term Mather because we're like, well, when we say mathematician, it implies profession. 00:13:20.241 --> 00:13:22.162 It, it implies a certain degree of knowing. 00:13:22.172 --> 00:13:26.761 At least when we say Mather, the idea is math is something we do, right? 00:13:26.761 --> 00:13:35.721 It doesn't

matter what math, it doesn't matter how advanced the math is, it doesn't matter, like, it just like we acknowledge that like ma- you know, math is a thing we do. 00:13:35.751 --> 00:13:43.402 Just like being a reader, it doesn't mean like you have to read Shakespeare or you teach Shakespeare, it's just like you read, right? 00:13:43.402 --> 00:13:44.532 That can mean so many different things. 00:13:44.841 --> 00:13:48.581 So I mean, all, all of that, there is so much to unpack there. 00:13:48.611 --> 00:13:57.042 I'm very curious now, sitting here in front of me today, because we actually haven't talked about this, like I actually really don't know, I'm curious how you feel now. 00:13:57.042 --> 00:14:00.701 So we did a little snapshot of who you were when you walked into our first Math Therapy session. 00:14:01.481 --> 00:14:02.741 Do we feel the same now? 00:14:02.802 --> 00:14:03.932 Has it changed at all? 00:14:03.932 --> 00:14:07.432 Like, tell me, tell me what has happened in the past four months 00:14:08.187 --> 00:14:18.827 I have loosened the reins, given our, just given our conversation, I have loosened the reins on adding proficiency to a statement like,"I'm a mather." And it's for the very reason that you just explained. 00:14:18.837 --> 00:14:27.638 Having spent time with wonderful, thoughtful, math-forward friends like you and like Deborah, and listening to 00:14:28.412 --> 00:14:29.711 Math forward? 00:14:29.918 --> 00:14:31.741 I love math forward. 00:14:31.751 --> 00:14:32.731 Okay, cool 00:14:33.717 --> 00:14:58.337 So listening to Deborah explain what she means when she says the word mather, I'm a mather, there's a lot of release in that for me, because mather doesn't suggest proficiency or expertise or career or any of the things that we would layer onto it as adults, but also as children when we tell them,"Hey, you're really good at math", or,"You're really good at reading." we're putting a lot of pressure on a kid just by trying to celebrate them. 00:14:59.197 --> 00:15:11.827 We're celebrating something that they're excelling at but by the same time, we're putting a lot of pressure on them to then be proficient or to then show mastery, or then to continue to get better at math and show it, to continue to get better at reading and show it. 00:15:12.307 --> 00:15:23.638 So Deborah's language has really allowed me to release some of that pressure from myself that I, I can be a mather, and I can exist in this world as someone who is not terrified when the check comes. 00:15:23.937 --> 00:15:38.868 Or my best example of just the leap from where I was even six months ago, have moved into this new sweet house in Pennsylvania, and my husband and I have been slowly trying to unpack and hang things on the wall like you do and make it our own home. 00:15:39.307 --> 00:15:51.258 And yesterday we were hanging a huge portrait, a huge map of Texas on, um, the wall in our kitchen, which probably also just raises a bunch of questions about

why is a huge map of Texas in your kitchen. 00:15:51.258 --> 00:15:53.158 But at any rate, it's up on the wall. 00:15:53.168 --> 00:15:54.738 We're getting ready to hang it up on the wall. 00:15:54.847 --> 00:16:14.607 He whips out the measuring tape, which would have just absolutely struck fear in my heart months ago, and he's trying to find center for this piece and on the wall, and he shouts out, not shouts out, he says,"Okay, so this is something and three quarters, and this one is something and a quarter. 00:16:14.918 --> 00:16:17.878 Um, we've gotta figure this part out." And I was like,"Wait, I can do it. 00:16:17.967 --> 00:16:18.597 I got it. 00:16:18.788 --> 00:16:20.008 I can answer this question. 00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:21.090 What? 00:16:21.727 --> 00:16:22.128 Yeah. 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.909 With fractions? 00:16:24.258 --> 00:16:27.437 with fractions, which that's 00:16:27.755 --> 00:16:28.166 What? 00:16:28.488 --> 00:16:29.128 as a teacher. 00:16:29.138 --> 00:16:29.607 Fractions 00:16:29.865 --> 00:16:30.525 Oh my... 00:16:30.875 --> 00:16:31.645 Okay 00:16:31.967 --> 00:16:33.888 says,"Fractions are okay. 00:16:34.597 --> 00:16:35.778 can think through this. 00:16:35.977 --> 00:16:37.827 I can do it." And I did it. 00:16:37.857 --> 00:16:39.378 Did I have him double check my answer? 00:16:39.717 --> 00:16:43.018 Would I have told him that we were just gonna go straightforward with what I decided? 00:16:43.107 --> 00:16:43.967 Yes and no. 00:16:44.734 --> 00:16:46.024 But that's good practice. 00:16:46.073 --> 00:16:47.244 That's good practice, 00:16:47.244 --> 00:16:50.138 yeah and it coming up in the real world, right? 00:16:50.138 --> 00:16:55.687 Like, so I think we talked a little bit about things I was more comfortable with sneaky math than I was, than I was with math math. 00:16:57.197 --> 00:16:59.418 Okay, define that, f- define that for us though 00:16:59.571 --> 00:17:01.500 Math math is when you know you're doing math. 00:17:01.561 --> 00:17:04.101 It's showing up, and you're seeing it, and you've gotta make it happen. 00:17:04.101 --> 00:17:11.770 Sneaky math is when I'm planning my garden and I'm using non-standard measurement, and the distance from one tomato plant to the other is from my pinky to my thumb. 00:17:12.161 --> 00:17:13.921 So I got that kind of math. 00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:16.161 That is no problem for me at all. 00:17:16.201 --> 00:17:22.510 But math math always is terrify- or not, not always is, always was terrifying to me. 00:17:22.580 --> 00:17:29.480 Um, yesterday was a real moment when we were using that measuring tape and putting that thing on the wall. 00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:35.361 It was just really a moment for me to see the, the distance, see how far I'd come. 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:46.419 We are hanging this thing on the wall, and I just didn't even think twice about offering to solve the problem in front of us, knowing that it was actual fractions. 00:17:46.628 --> 00:17:49.969 And I

wish we could put some, like, scary music in the background, 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:50.240 will. 00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:51.099 David, I'll do that. 00:17:51.159 --> 00:17:52.739 feel, feel about them. 00:17:52.778 --> 00:18:04.328 Um, and I mean, I still don't, like, seek out opportunities to do fractions, but when this one presented itself, I was hand in the air, raised high, ready to do it. 00:18:05.172 --> 00:18:10.481 Okay, so hold, so I have a whole bunch of questions here because you're listing one moment, but it has been four months since I've seen you. 00:18:10.832 --> 00:18:13.461 I wanna back up and say a couple things here. 00:18:13.862 --> 00:18:23.372 First, what happened during our Math Therapy session is we had a great time, so much happened, fine, but I only gave Lauren one piece of let's call it homework. 00:18:23.682 --> 00:18:31.824 And that piece of homework was I told her to download the Duolingo app, which again, Duolingo should be sponsoring us the amount I talk about them. 00:18:31.824 --> 00:18:33.473 And I was like,"I just want you to use this app. 00:18:33.493 --> 00:18:34.554 It is two minutes a day. 00:18:34.584 --> 00:18:36.683 Duolingo recently added math as a language. 00:18:36.884 --> 00:18:39.683 Lauren loves languages." I was like,"I just want you to try it. 00:18:39.804 --> 00:18:41.564 It's literally two minutes a day for this thing. 00:18:41.574 --> 00:19:08.928 I want you to try it for a week and tell me what happens." Now, because Lauren is the other expert here, and I literally got a email from her today before our interview saying,"I'm on day 131 of Duolingo", and I quote, she said,"It might rank as top five in my greatest accomplishments in life." So before we get into why she was all of a sudden so comfortable answering this question about fractions, I'd like you to tell us about this Duolingo journey. 00:19:08.948 --> 00:19:13.458 First of all, when I assigned it to you for homework, were you re- were you like,"F you, I don't want it"? 00:19:13.458 --> 00:19:14.337 Like, what was the vibe? 00:19:14.428 --> 00:19:15.407 What happens inside? 00:19:15.407 --> 00:19:18.458 'Cause I only wanted you to do it for a week, and here you are on day 131. 00:19:18.788 --> 00:19:24.907 I wanna know what role that has played in whatever's going on right now in your math rehab. 00:19:25.396 --> 00:19:31.547 So when we were, uh, doing this piece of it, my math rehab, that's so perfect. 00:19:31.961 --> 00:19:32.461 I'm into it. 00:19:32.471 --> 00:19:32.961 I'm into it. 00:19:32.961 --> 00:19:33.461 Okay, yep 00:19:34.126 --> 00:19:50.047 But when we were sitting on the couch and you introduced me to Duolingo Math as a language, and you're talking me through it, and I'm getting all of those great dings and beeps and, you know, super noises'cause I'm so smart at math, basic addition, um, it was a delight, and that was really encouraging. 00:19:50.047 --> 00:19:57.517 But I also know me well enough to know that I'm just

not great at, at committing to doing a math thing for a long time. 00:19:57.517 --> 00:19:59.237 Like, I'll jump into it and do it. 00:19:59.267 --> 00:20:06.356 But what I came to find, decided I was gonna commit to it for, I think we agreed seven days, right? 00:20:06.356 --> 00:20:06.767 Like a full 00:20:06.798 --> 00:20:07.157 Yeah 00:20:07.326 --> 00:20:11.767 it every day for a week, see how it feels, go on about your life as you see fit post that. 00:20:11.777 --> 00:20:14.084 So I committed to the seven days. 00:20:14.134 --> 00:20:15.503 I promised you I would do it. 00:20:15.834 --> 00:20:24.104 And so I did my seven days, but I had found some great success during those seven days in just kind of feeling good when I finished a lesson. 00:20:24.933 --> 00:20:35.653 Whether I got them all right, whether I didn't, just the sense of accomplishment of here I am doing a thing that is hard for me, that I don't like to do, that actually only takes about like 30 seconds of my day. 00:20:35.653 --> 00:20:38.253 That's not true, but you know, just a couple of minutes of my day in the 00:20:38.287 --> 00:20:39.176 Yeah, yeah, yeah 00:20:39.483 --> 00:20:51.403 and kind of get that dopamine hit, that feel of like,"Hey, I'm kind of smart sometimes when I do this thing." After the seventh day, I thought, okay, it pops up and says,"Do you want to extend your... 00:20:51.844 --> 00:20:55.183 Set a new goal?" And I thought,"Sure, I'll set a goal for 50 days. 00:20:55.213 --> 00:20:59.294 I can do 50 days of this because that's probably not all the way up to fractions. 00:20:59.304 --> 00:21:02.144 It's low level, basic level math, and 00:21:02.361 --> 00:21:03.830 What math were you doing? 00:21:04.060 --> 00:21:05.060 What was happening on that app? 00:21:05.223 --> 00:21:07.564 just beginner math, addition, subtraction, 00:21:07.936 --> 00:21:08.307 Okay 00:21:09.673 --> 00:21:11.324 multiplication, division. 00:21:12.253 --> 00:21:14.044 Those were just the basic levels of, 00:21:14.105 --> 00:21:15.384 Like operations. 00:21:15.884 --> 00:21:16.013 Yeah, 00:21:16.025 --> 00:21:16.365 Okay 00:21:16.653 --> 00:21:20.403 stuff that had just been drilled into me that I had some general familiarity with. 00:21:20.864 --> 00:21:28.784 So I just kept going, and then I got to 50 days, and 50 days was like,"Do you want to set a new goal?" And I said,"Yes, I want to set a new goal for 150 days." 00:21:29.325 --> 00:21:30.125 Okay, wait, hold on. 00:21:30.134 --> 00:21:31.234 So, so I have a question. 00:21:31.234 --> 00:21:42.825 You, you so casually just said, you know,"In the first seven days I was doing it, and even if I would get some wrong, I just felt good about doing this thing that was hard for me." I would like to pause on that, because that is a very prolific statement. 00:21:43.065 --> 00:21:56.694 We have been taught as educators currently today, that if we are giving students, um, an opportunity to be wrong, and they are wrong, that they are going to feel bad and not want to try again, right? 00:21:56.694 --> 00:22:06.535 Like, we are really being told as educators, we have to We're, we're not being told this specifically, but there's kind of a vibe out there that, like, we want students to feel right. 00:22:06.734 --> 00:22:15.325 And I would really like to unpack this little moment we're having here where you were actually okay with being wrong because you were accomplishing something else. 00:22:15.345 --> 00:22:17.595 Now, what was that something else you were accomplishing? 00:22:17.924 --> 00:22:23.095 The feeling that you were overcoming an obstacle, that you were doing something in spite Like, what was it? 00:22:23.154 --> 00:22:24.105 Can you try to, 00:22:25.584 --> 00:22:32.534 was just the commitment that I was going to just keep trying to dig a little bit deeper. 00:22:32.544 --> 00:22:41.824 So I, I, I walked away from our time together, just really thinking I have to shake off this identity. 00:22:41.824 --> 00:22:54.544 So I just can no longer hold onto I'm not a math person and smile when I say it, because that line does a disservice to me as a smart human woman of the world who is capable of a thousand things. 00:22:54.733 --> 00:22:59.943 I had the realization that when I say I'm not a math person, I'm taking away from who I am. 00:23:00.243 --> 00:23:01.663 It wasn't adding to me. 00:23:01.663 --> 00:23:05.784 It wasn't an addition or a plus sign into my, my Lauren-ness. 00:23:06.023 --> 00:23:06.983 Hear those math words? 00:23:07.421 --> 00:23:09.290 Ah, now she's making math jokes. 00:23:09.290 --> 00:23:09.810 Oh my God. 00:23:09.810 --> 00:23:10.250 Okay, yeah. 00:23:11.273 --> 00:23:17.253 was subtracting from what I bring to the table, which is a lot. 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:33.790 two, I needed to prove to myself that this just wasn't a beautiful experience with someone who was amazing, that we spent a day together and I walked away feeling really good about the possibility of Letting go of the fear of being bad at math. 00:23:33.790 --> 00:23:51.090 So I needed to cement that in who I was in order to make this journey for our podcast authentic, one, but two, also to make it authentic for me as a person who's grappling through better understanding who I am, but two, to your very point, better understanding about how we talk to kids about all 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:51.640 Wow. 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:52.099 Yeah 00:23:52.201 --> 00:23:53.221 talk to kids about math. 00:23:53.240 --> 00:24:00.280 And then even further, how we talk to teachers about teaching math, how we talk to teachers about their own feelings about math. 00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:04.871 I want everyone listening to think about what Lauren said here. 00:24:05.931 --> 00:24:16.631 The sense of accomplishment, what kept her going despite the fact that she was getting the wrong answer mathematically in a subject, math, that she's already anxious about getting the wrong answer in, okay? 00:24:16.631

--> 00:24:18.820 So she kept going despite that. 00:24:18.840 --> 00:24:20.040 She wasn't always getting it wrong. 00:24:20.111 --> 00:24:21.641 You were getting some wins, right? 00:24:21.641 --> 00:24:22.641 So you were like, okay. 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:29.401 But what kept you going is the goal, the measure of success was not getting the right answer. 00:24:29.631 --> 00:24:50.000 The measure of success had been defined by both of us as,"I am going to do this thing that feels hard, and I'm simply going to witness how I feel and keep going." Because that was the measure of success, every day that you did Duolingo, you could check that box regardless of the answer you got on the math that you were doing. 00:24:50.451 --> 00:24:51.511 That's exactly right. 00:24:51.531 --> 00:25:03.102 And I think, too, to, to sort of, um, connect to that, the more I did it in this low stakes environment, you don't care if I'm getting these math answers right. 00:25:03.332 --> 00:25:07.942 I actually wasn't, uh, deeply affected by whether or not I got it right. 00:25:07.942 --> 00:25:21.942 It was the fact that I was doing it in this low stakes environment where I kept having these at-bats and practices with math and these moments of feeling really good about getting an answer right or persevering through something that I actually didn't want to do. 00:25:21.961 --> 00:25:38.192 So we may in a moment get to the spot where I tell you that we got to the fractions section, and it was a struggle for me mentally, emotionally, every day to pick this thing up and to do that fractions lesson every day because it was hard for me. 00:25:38.531 --> 00:25:46.112 And those were the moments that I really transferred back to the feelings of inability and the feelings of,"I'm just not good at this. 00:25:46.122 --> 00:25:46.801 Why am I... 00:25:47.172 --> 00:25:49.291 Is this really a goal that I need to continue on? 00:25:49.291 --> 00:25:50.761 I'm at a hundred and some odd days. 00:25:50.791 --> 00:26:00.041 Can I just quit at this point?" So there was some real, like, back and forth and some tension just internally for me to dig down into why I'm doing this. 00:26:00.061 --> 00:26:02.471 Why am I sticking with Duolingo the way that I am? 00:26:02.741 --> 00:26:05.672 Why does it matter to me that I continue going? 00:26:06.001 --> 00:26:09.592 But it's because I needed to continue to practice on the thing that was hard. 00:26:09.602 --> 00:26:19.942 I needed to continue to get it wrong, and I needed most of all to get it right from time to time, a lot of times, in order to have all of the feelings, because that's how you learn. 00:26:19.951 --> 00:26:21.582 You gotta have all of the feelings. 00:26:21.752 --> 00:26:23.863 You have to have all of the feelings. 00:26:25.532 --> 00:26:28.462 I love that you have to have all of the feelings. 00:26:28.462 --> 00:26:29.932 You're almost like exercising. 00:26:29.932 --> 00:26:32.272 Like it's that window of tolerance, right? 00:26:32.272 --> 00:26:36.163 Being like,"Okay, I can go from being super stressed out, feeling anxious. 00:26:36.333 --> 00:26:40.823 I can then move through that window to the other side." Like it's not stagnant. 00:26:40.843 --> 00:26:41.603 There is movement. 00:26:41.853 --> 00:26:45.103 I'm c- did you, did you feel like you learned? 00:26:45.182 --> 00:26:50.313 Like do you feel like you know more about fractions now or do you feel like you just really 00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:55.509 Yes, and I, my, my proof point is hanging that crazy picture on the 00:26:55.737 --> 00:26:56.707 Yeah 00:26:56.769 --> 00:27:08.690 in our kitchen because I had just finished up that fractions block of learning, goodness, and have moved to rounding, which feels like a breeze and a dream compared to fractions. 00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:18.819 But I had just f- finished up that, that, that fraction section and, like, struggled through improper fractions and comparing fractions and finishing out the fraction. 00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:22.569 But all of that hard stuff, and my scores were horrible. 00:27:22.569 --> 00:27:28.069 I don't know if Du- Duolingo tracks what your score progression is, but my scores were terrible through that fraction section. 00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:37.210 But they got a little bit better every time, and I was able to take that practice and apply it to my kitchen wall confidently. 00:27:37.568 --> 00:27:38.118 Oh my God 00:27:38.339 --> 00:27:54.740 uncomfortable, or I didn't cringe, or I didn't think,"Oh my goodness, I'm gonna go in the living room and find something so that he can do this for me." I thought,"Wait, I actually have kind of honed in and developed the skills over the past couple of weeks with this daily two-minute practice that I think I can figure this out." 00:27:55.694 --> 00:27:57.184 This is so wild. 00:27:57.184 --> 00:28:02.414 Like, it's so wild for so many reasons, but I'm like, you put into practice so much of the stuff we say. 00:28:02.414 --> 00:28:04.944 Like, number one, doing math in a low-stakes way. 00:28:05.095 --> 00:28:08.994 Number two, let's note that Lauren did not start with fractions, right? 00:28:08.994 --> 00:28:12.704 She pulled out that app, and she was starting with stuff where she could get some wins, right? 00:28:12.704 --> 00:28:13.974 You could feel kinda good. 00:28:14.164 --> 00:28:20.234 By the time the fractions thing came around, so this just shows, I think for me, also the idea of scaffolding that we always talk about. 00:28:20.234 --> 00:28:22.954 Like, give your students the opportunity to get some wins. 00:28:23.105 --> 00:28:27.325 If it's you working on your own thing, don't start with the thing that stresses you out. 00:28:27.525 --> 00:28:34.345 Start with something like a rung below on the ladder, something that you feel like you can get a bit of a dopamine hit from, and then move to that. 00:28:34.625 --> 00:28:37.785 Then also, you didn't start with trying to hang that picture,

right? 00:28:37.785 --> 00:28:50.045 Like, again, you were doing low-stakes math every day, these little things, then a real-life situation came up, and I'm sure your husband, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he wasn't like,"Lauren, this is a test of what you've been prac-" Right? 00:28:50.055 --> 00:28:51.035 Did he say those things? 00:28:51.748 --> 00:28:52.117 He didn't. 00:28:52.127 --> 00:28:52.278 He 00:28:52.325 --> 00:28:52.845 No. 00:28:53.387 --> 00:28:53.857 that was great." 00:28:55.154 --> 00:28:55.575 Right? 00:28:55.724 --> 00:28:57.984 And, like, he probably wasn't like,"Why don't you do it? 00:28:57.984 --> 00:28:58.894 You've been practicing," right? 00:28:58.894 --> 00:29:01.994 Like, it's something, a- again, this was low stakes in a way. 00:29:01.994 --> 00:29:03.305 It was a low-stakes application. 00:29:03.454 --> 00:29:10.234 It was a word problem, which normally would be horrifying, a word problem that was a low-stakes word problem. 00:29:10.244 --> 00:29:15.998 It wasn't written out in a book for you to do, there's so many learning and teachable moments in your experience. 00:29:16.393 --> 00:29:26.521 I imagine up to this point in your journey every time you go to schools and you're dealing with teachers, does it come up that educators do not like math? 00:29:26.531 --> 00:29:28.442 Are you hearing this kind of language? 00:29:29.281 --> 00:29:33.632 Probably less so in the work I do today than it did when I was actually in public education. 00:29:33.632 --> 00:29:41.461 So a lot of the conversations I had with new teachers, with veteran teachers, um, we like math the way we like math, which is the way we learned it when we were young. 00:29:41.791 --> 00:29:45.991 Whether we understood it when we were young or not, we like it that way'cause we know it best. 00:29:46.162 --> 00:29:59.392 So when we were thinking about expanding how we invite children to the table of math learning, was a really hard conversation'cause lots of people just don't actually like math or are afraid of having to teach higher-level concepts. 00:29:59.801 --> 00:30:04.902 And those were really important conversations that I wish I could travel back in time and have 00:30:05.017 --> 00:30:05.727 Right 00:30:06.051 --> 00:30:07.721 all of this understanding now. 00:30:07.721 --> 00:30:13.001 And honestly, the thing that I did as a leader then was build community with my not-math people, right? 00:30:13.001 --> 00:30:15.082 Like,"You're not a math person. 00:30:15.082 --> 00:30:15.652 I got it. 00:30:15.652 --> 00:30:20.592 We're gonna sit here together and commiserate on that for a few minutes, and then we gotta figure out a pathway forward. 00:30:20.592 --> 00:30:26.511 Like, we can keep hating math, but we gotta still teach it to these kids and make them love it." But that's not the way, right? 00:30:26.592 --> 00:30:27.555 What would you do differently? 00:30:27.555 --> 00:30:28.724 'Cause I think there are so many... 00:30:28.744 --> 00:30:39.545 One of the questions I get asked most from educators is,"How do I deal with the other teachers or my colleagues or my leaders or admin or, like, this person or that person who, like, talks shit about math all the time?" Like, you know what I mean? 00:30:39.545 --> 00:30:55.755 I hear from leaders all the time,"We have so many teachers with their own math anxiety." I'm curious if this work has, like, sort of, you know, changed the way you notice math anxiety in other teachers, and if you're noticing things now you wouldn't have before, and how you would respond to it differently if given the chance. 00:30:55.884 --> 00:30:57.884 I'm sure you will be given the chance. 00:30:58.038 --> 00:31:12.028 I would point back to something that you said to me that was pivotal in this entire experience, so my Duolingo experience, what I thought of every time I talked to somebody, um, after our time together as we were writing and thinking through scripting on the podcast. 00:31:12.588 --> 00:31:26.858 basically you, like, lifted the shame away from individual strategy I felt like as a young person and even a person today, up to that point and still sort of grappling with it now, that if I had to use my fingers, I was not good at math. 00:31:26.878 --> 00:31:29.189 If I had to draw it out, I was not good at math. 00:31:29.199 --> 00:31:37.348 If I had to do some kind of non-standard way of getting to the answer, just'cause I got the answer right didn't mean that I did it with mastery or I was good at math. 00:31:37.358 --> 00:31:39.298 I did it the wrong way to get the right answer. 00:31:39.769 --> 00:31:43.699 And I think one of the pivotal moments for me was when you said,"But you got the right answer." 00:31:43.933 --> 00:31:44.574 Right. 00:31:44.743 --> 00:31:45.304 Yeah 00:31:45.563 --> 00:31:46.063 I did. 00:31:46.242 --> 00:31:47.883 Okay, let's move on. 00:31:49.772 --> 00:32:03.833 strategies are important, but strategies are an opportunity for someone to find out what works for them and how their sweet brain bridges piece together information, where we build those synapses, where we make those connections, and what we're able to push forward in with our learning. 00:32:03.833 --> 00:32:23.222 So I think one of the big, um, mysteries to reveal or shames to wipe away for all of the people, particularly teachers who struggle with teaching math or struggle with math anxiety, would be stop shaming yourself for your strategy and start seeking opportunities with your students to build their own individual strategies. 00:32:23.512 --> 00:32:28.432 We can not test every student to mastery on every strategy because that is not real. 00:32:29.057 --> 00:32:40.696 I'm really glad you brought this up because I feel like when somebody will say to me, and students and teachers will say this, they'll be like,"Yeah, I got the right answer, but I was doing like this thing," or,"I had to do this to figure it out." I'm always like,"That is, isn't that

amazing? 00:32:40.696 --> 00:32:42.967 Like you were self-resourced. 00:32:43.017 --> 00:32:47.207 Like you ma- you didn't know how to do something, and then you figured out how to do it. 00:32:47.217 --> 00:32:48.926 What is a more powerful skill than that?" 00:32:49.297 --> 00:33:03.906 To top that off, it takes me back to a moment where I, I remember a teacher one time sweetly said,"But you're doing so much hard work to get to the answer when there's a lot easier way." And what that said to me was my way was too much. 00:33:03.926 --> 00:33:06.257 I needed to figure out how to make the shorter way work. 00:33:06.267 --> 00:33:08.317 And I understand what that teacher was saying. 00:33:08.326 --> 00:33:09.596 It's, it's smart, right? 00:33:09.596 --> 00:33:14.717 Like, why are you exhausting yourself to get to this answer when there's this thing over here that is easier? 00:33:14.977 --> 00:33:16.467 That thing did not make sense to me. 00:33:16.467 --> 00:33:19.106 I could not conceptualize how all of that went together. 00:33:19.487 --> 00:33:23.166 So all of this work was not necessarily the hard work for me. 00:33:23.166 --> 00:33:25.916 I wasn't doing hard-- all of this extra hard work. 00:33:26.207 --> 00:33:33.057 I was doing the work that let me get to a place where I understood what I was, what I was answering, how I was answering, how I was getting the answer. 00:33:33.057 --> 00:33:38.186 So I think that there's just a lot of value in, in continuing to lift up and having those conversations. 00:33:38.477 --> 00:33:47.757 And again, as an educational society, thinking deeply about teach and assess standards, um, of practice, right? 00:33:47.757 --> 00:33:52.586 Algorithms and the way that students answer questions and the way that students get to the answer. 00:33:53.090 --> 00:33:56.540 okay, it- while you're talking, I have to tell you where my mind is going. 00:33:56.881 --> 00:34:00.560 I'm thinking about getting organized. 00:34:00.601 --> 00:34:02.351 I know I talk about this on the podcast all the time. 00:34:02.371 --> 00:34:03.361 Obviously, I have a problem. 00:34:03.361 --> 00:34:04.421 I am in therapy, guys. 00:34:04.421 --> 00:34:05.141 I don't know what to say. 00:34:05.560 --> 00:34:10.190 But I, uh, one of my main panics is that I'm not doing things the most efficient way. 00:34:10.490 --> 00:34:22.311 Like, I'll be like,"Okay," like, I'm or- I guess I'm organized and I have a system, but I know there's a better way out there, and I feel like I'm failing constantly because I'm like, I bet you, like, people will be like,"Oh, why don't you just, like, automate it? 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.840 So like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.891 Like, AI does this thing, and then it'll add these things to your..." And I'm like,"I don't know. 00:34:26.891 --> 00:34:41.760 I don't know how to do that." And I, you know, and I've always felt like such a failure, and you just gave me an epiphany of how many people I've spoken to, who when I ask them how they organize their day, their day, they'll say something like,"Oh, pen, you know, pen and paper for me. 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:46.010 Like, I still need to write on a physical planner." And none of those people feel shame around it. 00:34:46.021 --> 00:34:47.840 In fact, they're like,"Yeah, sure. 00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.141 I guess I could use an app. 00:34:49.150 --> 00:34:58.760 I guess I can automate it, but for me, what's always work is, worked is, like, getting my, my physical planner and writing my stuff on it, and I get the job done." So what is the problem? 00:34:58.981 --> 00:34:59.641 And I wish... 00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:07.190 I, I feel like this is, I'm gonna take this moment for myself,'cause I've been all panicky f- for the past year about how disorganized I am. 00:35:07.190 --> 00:35:08.561 David is nodding vigorously. 00:35:08.851 --> 00:35:10.061 And I thank you. 00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:16.891 This is a reminder to me that just because something isn't the fastest, it doesn't mean it's not the way that works for us. 00:35:17.181 --> 00:35:20.541 And if you get the job done, what the fuck is the problem? 00:35:20.721 --> 00:35:21.380 You know what I mean? 00:35:21.380 --> 00:35:21.721 Like... 00:35:21.940 --> 00:35:27.811 And I get, by the way, this is not a nod to being like,"We don't need fluency in math." That is not what I'm saying. 00:35:28.081 --> 00:35:28.431 But, 00:35:28.541 --> 00:35:28.931 do. 00:35:29.161 --> 00:35:31.030 yes, that's not what I'm saying. 00:35:31.050 --> 00:35:41.851 I'm saying, though, there is a time and a place for the most efficient way, and there's a time and a place for however you get to the answer and understand it is fine, especially in the learning phase, 00:35:42.090 --> 00:35:42.760 Yes 00:35:42.851 --> 00:35:44.931 maybe later you'll learn something else, right? 00:35:44.931 --> 00:35:50.971 The, I think this goes back to all of the talk around being like, we want students to think and come up with their own ways before we teach them the algorithm. 00:35:50.990 --> 00:35:52.130 Like, you know what I mean? 00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:54.050 We're not saying don't use the algorithm. 00:35:54.521 --> 00:35:56.570 Like, I'm certainly not saying that. 00:35:56.570 --> 00:35:58.291 I'm a huge fan of many algorithms. 00:35:58.521 --> 00:36:01.360 Yeah, yeah, we're not Yeah, go for it, but also, like... 00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:03.271 okay, so anyway, so we're not getting into an algorithm talk. 00:36:03.291 --> 00:36:03.840 I'm so sorry. 00:36:03.981 --> 00:36:04.331 Thank you. 00:36:04.331 --> 00:36:05.951 I just needed to steal that moment for myself. 00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:06.760 Back to you. 00:36:06.911 --> 00:36:08.260 There's something else you wanted to say. 00:36:08.425 --> 00:36:09.846 It's just meaning-making, right? 00:36:09.856 --> 00:36:14.195 So teach the algorithm, but also teach the way for students to make meaning of that algorithm.

00:36:14.206 --> 00:36:17.565 So it can't be a standalone thing that I just apply and use. 00:36:17.596 --> 00:36:19.436 I actually do have to understand its 00:36:19.556 --> 00:36:20.047 Sure 00:36:20.056 --> 00:36:21.076 how it works, right? 00:36:21.126 --> 00:36:25.356 Like, space for all in this math world that we're living in. 00:36:25.365 --> 00:36:26.905 It, it can all happen. 00:36:28.025 --> 00:36:38.306 one of the other really pivotal pieces that I think would be great for a district or teachers or a group of teachers or a team that's struggling with teaching math, we did that paper. 00:36:38.335 --> 00:36:42.735 We just wrote down together things that we think about for math, right? 00:36:42.735 --> 00:36:45.036 Or that, that represented math or math things. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:46.385 I can't even remember how you phrased 00:36:46.438 --> 00:36:50.751 would, yes, I think we were like, yeah, we were like,"Let's list some things that are math," like 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:51.320 Yeah 00:36:51.331 --> 00:36:54.251 planting a garden, doing your times ta- Is that what you mean? 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:55.728 yes, that thing. 00:36:55.768 --> 00:37:11.306 And what was interesting was you-- I went first, and I'm like,"Addition!"'Cause I'm thinking math, math, math, But then you really opened up the opportunity for me to think beyond that, because I think the next thing that you said was maybe or trends, uh, just something 00:37:11.550 --> 00:37:13.371 Yeah, it was like spotting a trend. 00:37:13.420 --> 00:37:13.661 Yeah 00:37:14.346 --> 00:37:25.706 yep, for math thinking that it really helped my brain shift into thinking about, oh, planting a garden, making dinner, baking something, hanging a picture, moving furniture. 00:37:26.135 --> 00:37:40.255 So sometimes, um, poor math experience as a child turns into poor math experience as an educator because we can't shake out of poor math experience as a child. 00:37:41.065 --> 00:37:45.335 And we forget that math is a means to an end for most humans. 00:37:45.346 --> 00:37:55.246 So ninety-nine percent of the students that come into our classroom are not likely to go on to become mathematicians winning awards in the world and changing math theory. 00:37:55.596 --> 00:38:06.766 They're students who are gonna go in and have great jobs and careers, and they're gonna go to college, and they're gonna go in the military, and they need to really take these practical concepts or these high-level concepts and make them practical in their lives. 00:38:07.005 --> 00:38:12.065 So that moment also really helped me shift my thinking around, like, why are we teaching math? 00:38:12.115 --> 00:38:14.876 Why do we want students to be proficient with math? 00:38:15.155 --> 00:38:18.806 Is it so they can get the highest SAT score or the highest ACT score? 00:38:18.996 --> 00:38:27.135 Is it so that they can go take high-level math when they get into college, or they can, you know, any other math thing that you

can put in there? 00:38:27.155 --> 00:38:44.416 Or is it because we want them to be able to balance their checkbook, hang a picture on their wall, measure the ingredients for the cake that they're baking, figure out how to mow their lawn so it's got those beautiful lines in it that everybody else in the neighborhood has, whatever it is that they wanna do, there are a thousand applications. 00:38:45.266 --> 00:38:58.806 An educator, as a leader, and as someone who has conversations, I can bring reading to life for every person in the room because I see its practical application in everything that we do. 00:38:58.826 --> 00:39:01.056 I don't need everybody to love classic literature. 00:39:01.896 --> 00:39:10.146 You don't have to pick up a book every day, but you do have to have an understanding of how words and sounds work together to make sense of this life. 00:39:10.445 --> 00:39:21.445 I did not believe that about math until I spent time with you and spent time with other people who are in a similar space as me, are thinking big thoughts like Deborah and Peter. 00:39:22.195 --> 00:39:25.686 And then I started to really think, like, I've missed it here. 00:39:25.775 --> 00:39:26.766 I have missed the boat. 00:39:27.485 --> 00:39:40.335 I have done more damage as not a math person than I could ever think because I stopped thinking about-- I never thought about, actually, math is a means to an end. 00:39:40.646 --> 00:39:41.195 It is 00:39:41.286 --> 00:39:41.706 Hmm 00:39:41.755 --> 00:39:42.655 means to an end. 00:39:42.666 --> 00:39:44.766 It is not just two plus two. 00:39:45.155 --> 00:39:50.181 It's if I have two bunnies and I've got two cats I have 00:39:50.222 --> 00:39:50.643 You... 00:39:50.931 --> 00:39:51.231 and now 00:39:51.302 --> 00:39:51.572 I 00:39:51.751 --> 00:39:53.342 out the math of how I feed them, right? 00:39:53.422 --> 00:39:57.702 So that was a terrible example, but just there's purpose in it. 00:39:57.702 --> 00:40:00.942 We need it to function in our everyday lives 00:40:01.693 --> 00:40:12.003 Well, it's so funny'cause I just finished another interview where we were talking about how we actu- you know, so, so much of the discourse has been around like,"Math is so beautiful, it's so meaningful. 00:40:12.003 --> 00:40:14.443 Like, look at the, like, math in nature. 00:40:14.443 --> 00:40:18.032 Like, we need students to understand the richness and beauty of math." Cool. 00:40:18.163 --> 00:40:24.773 Like, I'm not saying no, but it's just like you just said about classical literature, like, I'm sorry, I'm sure Shakespeare was a great guy. 00:40:24.822 --> 00:40:28.503 I'm actually not sure, to be honest, about any man at that time or now or currently. 00:40:28.782 --> 00:40:31.913 Um, but I cannot stand reading Shakespeare. 00:40:31.992 --> 00:40:33.132 I cannot stand it. 00:40:33.342 --> 00:40:34.523 I've tried it. 00:40:34.523 --> 00:40:36.222 It's not that I don't understand it. 00:40:36.472 --> 00:40:37.443 I do not like it. 00:40:37.443 --> 00:40:38.463 I do not enjoy it. 00:40:38.472 --> 00:40:41.762 So now, that has not turned me off reading. 00:40:41.822 --> 00:40:42.842 I love reading. 00:40:42.853 --> 00:40:44.182 There are books that I read. 00:40:44.202 --> 00:40:45.362 Like, do you know what I mean? 00:40:45.362 --> 00:40:53.003 And I think it might be a bit similar here, where it's like there is a whole side of the beauty of reading, right? 00:40:53.012 --> 00:40:56.512 Beautiful literature and poetry and this and that and whatever. 00:40:56.762 --> 00:40:59.742 And cool, that is an inroad for some people. 00:40:59.742 --> 00:41:03.443 Some people develop a love for reading because they fall in love with, like, Jane Austen or whatever. 00:41:03.603 --> 00:41:05.862 I'm just listing, like, famous people that I've never read. 00:41:06.052 --> 00:41:06.313 You know? 00:41:06.313 --> 00:41:06.702 Like, fine. 00:41:06.972 --> 00:41:11.492 But so many of us learn how to read regardless of the fact... 00:41:11.632 --> 00:41:13.952 you know, I know lots of people who know how to read. 00:41:14.132 --> 00:41:16.612 David over here hasn't picked up a book in, like, two years. 00:41:16.672 --> 00:41:17.242 You know what I mean? 00:41:17.242 --> 00:41:21.143 Like, he, like, but he's, he's, he's an incredible reader and writer. 00:41:21.213 --> 00:41:23.873 He's not right now currently reading a book. 00:41:23.873 --> 00:41:24.512 Like, you know what I mean? 00:41:24.902 --> 00:41:33.092 My point being, there are different pathways to building an identity, a positive identity around math or reading. 00:41:33.092 --> 00:41:34.012 There are multiple pathways. 00:41:34.222 --> 00:41:37.103 One of them might be the joy and beauty in numbers or words. 00:41:37.362 --> 00:41:40.563 One of them might be the practical application and the means to an end. 00:41:40.572 --> 00:41:46.273 And I think we need to stop placing one on a pedestal above the other, right? 00:41:46.273 --> 00:41:51.632 'Cause I think we are pedestalizing, like, this idea of the richness and the beauty and the deep understanding. 00:41:51.632 --> 00:41:56.432 It's like, that's cool, but also, you know what else de- deserves a spot on that ladder? 00:41:56.623 --> 00:42:02.472 Is being able to use that thing as a tool to get other things that you want, to live your life. 00:42:02.981 --> 00:42:03.621 Yes. 00:42:03.922 --> 00:42:08.601 It makes me think of somebody smarter than me somewhere on the internet wrote a thing sometime. 00:42:08.641 --> 00:42:10.052 I cannot credit this person. 00:42:10.061 --> 00:42:13.382 If you're out there, this has lived in my brain since the moment I read it. 00:42:13.391 --> 00:42:13.782 But 00:42:14.170 --> 00:42:14.940 W-what? 00:42:15.092 --> 00:42:19.842 That grizzly bear jaws and butterfly wings are both methods of survival in this world. 00:42:19.922 --> 00:42:21.422 There's more than one way to thrive 00:42:22.568 --> 00:42:23.268 W- pause. 00:42:23.449 -->

00:42:23.818 What? 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:25.728 Hold on, I need to think about it. 00:42:25.789 --> 00:42:26.588 I need to think about it. 00:42:27.110 --> 00:42:28.420 We just think that a grizzly bear 00:42:28.512 --> 00:42:28.751 this 00:42:29.050 --> 00:42:29.811 going to survive. 00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:30.411 Think about it. 00:42:30.420 --> 00:42:32.690 Like, its jaws are powerful. 00:42:32.891 --> 00:42:34.481 It's keeping itself safe. 00:42:34.510 --> 00:42:37.931 It is strong, and it's mighty, and it's out there mastering this world. 00:42:37.981 --> 00:42:39.860 But you know who else is mastering this world? 00:42:39.971 --> 00:42:47.900 A butterfly, because its beautiful, delicate, little light baby wings can take it up really high away from whatever it is on the ground that's gonna eat it. 00:42:48.001 --> 00:42:48.880 They're both thriving. 00:42:49.201 --> 00:42:50.851 They're just built for different things 00:42:52.405 --> 00:42:54.746 I could talk to you forever and literally ever. 00:42:54.746 --> 00:43:03.146 I feel like we honestly just got started, I just think this is so cool that you're sharing your journey with us, and you're still on it, and I kinda wanna talk about that a bit. 00:43:03.146 --> 00:43:08.846 Like, here we are, four months later, you literally could give a keynote about math. 00:43:08.846 --> 00:43:12.246 Like, you, you have been shouting out sneaky math. 00:43:12.246 --> 00:43:13.556 You've been shouting out math, math. 00:43:13.556 --> 00:43:14.945 You've been talking about different strategies. 00:43:14.945 --> 00:43:29.346 Like, it's so incredible to watch this transformation, and I'm so curious, like, what is next and how this has shaped how you think about not just math, but your capability for doing hard things. 00:43:29.346 --> 00:43:31.405 Like, do you have a next project you wanna work on? 00:43:31.405 --> 00:43:33.425 What are you thinking about next on your math journey? 00:43:33.436 --> 00:43:34.315 Are you finished? 00:43:34.315 --> 00:43:38.445 Like, what Are you now an advocate for math rehab? 00:43:38.456 --> 00:43:40.005 Are you starting a math rehab clinic? 00:43:40.005 --> 00:43:40.786 What is happening? 00:43:40.835 --> 00:43:42.065 Like, tell me what you're thinking. 00:43:42.547 --> 00:43:43.516 Yes to everything. 00:43:44.675 --> 00:43:47.525 I mean, a math rehab clinic and a Christmas tree farm? 00:43:48.175 --> 00:43:48.885 Sign me up 00:43:49.338 --> 00:43:54.679 not only would you be happy, but you would be overcoming as well, and I just think that those are two... 00:43:54.869 --> 00:43:57.268 It's a movie all wrapped up into itself. 00:43:57.338 --> 00:43:58.369 It's so beautiful. 00:43:58.449 --> 00:44:00.179 I- It's, like, uplifting. 00:44:00.608 --> 00:44:16.318 Um, so one of my big goals actually that I have written down, which is one of my methods for organizing who I am and how I'm going to tackle this life that I'm living, um, which as I get older is more like thumbs upping this life that I'm living because I'm trying to do it gently. 00:44:16.728 --> 00:44:21.789 But I, I am going to do a full year of this Duolingo math practice. 00:44:22.208 --> 00:44:22.427 What? 00:44:22.458 --> 00:44:23.978 That is my personal goal. 00:44:24.009 --> 00:44:26.458 My goal is to make it to the day that I met you. 00:44:26.518 --> 00:44:37.378 So I want full circle Vanessa math practice every day on Duolingo this full year, so up to, um, up to the date that, that I started. 00:44:37.442 --> 00:44:38.052 We're gonna find the da- 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:38.728 is a goal for 00:44:38.731 --> 00:44:39.012 how... 00:44:39.012 --> 00:44:39.942 Okay, hold on. 00:44:39.961 --> 00:44:41.922 How are we getting Duolingo involved? 00:44:41.931 --> 00:44:42.891 Like, do we have an idea? 00:44:42.902 --> 00:44:44.331 They need to be in on this. 00:44:44.702 --> 00:44:45.641 They need to be in on this. 00:44:45.652 --> 00:44:47.672 Like, people could be following your journey. 00:44:47.672 --> 00:44:49.751 Okay, I am going to reach out to them. 00:44:50.172 --> 00:44:51.112 I'm gonna reach out to them 00:44:51.208 --> 00:44:51.329 you 00:44:51.382 --> 00:44:52.032 after this interview. 00:44:52.391 --> 00:44:53.621 I'm reaching out to them this week. 00:44:53.632 --> 00:44:54.972 Okay, guys, I'm saying this out loud. 00:44:54.981 --> 00:44:57.931 Okay, sorry, Lauren, back to you, but, like, this is just too much. 00:44:57.931 --> 00:44:58.762 This is so exciting. 00:44:58.911 --> 00:44:59.661 Okay, go on 00:45:00.947 --> 00:45:14.356 It's just been a really pivotal, so many I know I keep saying things are pivotal, but honestly, this is just a really big shift for me as a human being because I have held so tightly to that identity of just being someone who doesn't care, honestly, about math. 00:45:14.856 --> 00:45:18.297 Um, I've lived my 40-some odd years and, like, it's cool. 00:45:18.317 --> 00:45:20.157 I don't need, I don't need to change this. 00:45:20.927 --> 00:45:39.947 And I don't know necessarily that I needed to shift this perspective, but it has been I can't imagine, I can't imagine having not done this over the past couple of months and it's really opened up how I think about how we do what we do as educators and curriculum creators and people who talk about learning in this world. 00:45:39.947 --> 00:45:42.047 Tell me more about that, that statement. 00:45:42.407 --> 00:45:46.445 Like, how has it shifted how you think about educators and what we do? 00:45:46.856 --> 00:45:48.766 Two things are happening in my life right now. 00:45:48.916 --> 00:45:56.476 I'm at the, on the tail end of writing and finishing my dissertation work, which is all about how teachers experience collaborative leadership during curriculum change. 00:45:56.476 --> 00:46:06.706 So how important is it that as stakeholders in an educational community, that we all come to the table and arrive at this decision together and then implement forward? 00:46:07.456

--> 00:46:31.548 So that has lifted up a lot of learning for me around just the value, of the foundational element of trust when we're in the room together And I think as I continue to have conversations with people and be curious about their experiences as leaders and learners and teachers in math, that sometimes, it points back to this lack of trust. 00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:39.949 So whether it is as a student trusting myself to persevere in the face of this hard thing and keep trying and not quit, I don't trust myself to do that. 00:46:40.248 --> 00:46:45.708 Do I trust this teacher to handle me gently when I do get it wrong or I don't understand and ask the question? 00:46:46.028 --> 00:46:48.039 I don't think I trust that as a student. 00:46:48.349 --> 00:46:58.219 As an educator, do I trust this curriculum company to come in and show me a method that's actually going to be effective for most of my students that I can actually do and deploy? 00:46:58.469 --> 00:47:03.898 I maybe don't trust that'cause I've had a lot of experiences otherwise in the ba- in the, in, in the rest of my life. 00:47:04.219 --> 00:47:11.778 As an educator, do I trust my leadership team to support me in failing forward on rolling out and teaching this thing that's brand new and uncomfortable? 00:47:12.228 --> 00:47:20.398 So as an administrator, do I trust that my school board, state government, federal government isn't gonna change the goal? 00:47:20.518 --> 00:47:24.139 Like, isn't gonna shift the race end midway through the process. 00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:40.938 So there's an erosion of trust all the way down from the top to the bottom of the student level, and as a person who is wrapped up in this curriculum world and then also wrapped up in this world with teachers and leaders and students, my wonder is: How do we build that? 00:47:40.989 --> 00:47:52.168 How do we create classrooms where students trust themselves and their teachers to exist in this environment that lets me grow as a learner still mess it up a whole bunch? 00:47:52.389 --> 00:48:05.498 How do we create systems of educators and districts and teachers where I'm actually really uncomfortable teaching this thing, but I'm surrounded by people and by a system of curriculum that's gonna support me in learning and doing? 00:48:06.237 --> 00:48:18.847 And also giving people what you gave me, which is the removal of shame, not getting it, being wrong, only getting it right sometimes, needing multiple at-bats 00:48:20.298 --> 00:48:34.358 I think this really does all connect because the idea of trust, the way you've talked about how it's tiered at all levels, I think really it does tie in in a way that I think is really important, and it's really subtle, but it's really poignant, right? 00:48:34.358 --> 00:48:40.054 So I think part of it is we talk about blind faith a lot, and it's a bit unfair, right? 00:48:40.054 --> 00:48:42.045 We expect us to all have blind faith. 00:48:42.474 --> 00:48:47.775 The truth is, though, faith and trust comes from evidence, right? 00:48:47.775 --> 00:48:51.155 It comes from evidence that, that there is a reason to trust. 00:48:51.175 --> 00:48:52.605 We don't just blindly trust people. 00:48:52.605 --> 00:48:53.985 I'm sorry, but we don't, right? 00:48:53.994 --> 00:48:56.324 Like, and this is why we talk about having trust issues. 00:48:56.514 --> 00:49:01.355 Somebody who's been burned before is going to be more reticent to trust somebody moving forward. 00:49:01.695 --> 00:49:10.324 So I think the experience that you've kind of given yourself and walked yourself through, I think what's happening is, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you are building trust in yourself, right? 00:49:10.324 --> 00:49:15.034 Trust in yourself to show up every day, trust in yourself that you can grow and change. 00:49:15.034 --> 00:49:16.295 You're actually witnessing that. 00:49:16.324 --> 00:49:19.985 We just saw that in the evidence of the hanging picture story. 00:49:20.144 --> 00:49:25.204 Something happened, and you were like,"Oh, it does actually matter." Same with students, right? 00:49:25.335 --> 00:49:28.905 When we just tell them to trust,"Oh, you've had years and years of bad math experiences. 00:49:28.905 --> 00:49:29.264 Don't worry. 00:49:29.264 --> 00:49:33.175 This is gonna be different, and you, and you'll be able to learn," they've been burned before. 00:49:33.315 --> 00:49:35.894 So we have to give them these experiences. 00:49:36.054 --> 00:49:37.905 The removal of shame, yes. 00:49:38.074 --> 00:49:43.094 Experiences like Duolingo or low-stakes math where they can win for once, yes. 00:49:43.534 --> 00:49:51.065 And that is how the trust that has eroded will begin to be rebuilt, and this has to happen at every single tier. 00:49:51.235 --> 00:49:53.135 This has to happen with leaders and teachers. 00:49:53.394 --> 00:50:08.164 Give those teachers that We're talking about math, so I'm gonna stick with math, but y- leaders, you have a bunch of teachers that you are leading who have math trauma, who have anxiety around math, who are now being asked to go into the math classroom and be evaluated through test scores on their ability to teach. 00:50:08.255 --> 00:50:09.184 What are you gonna do? 00:50:09.364 --> 00:50:14.224 How are you gonna get them to build the trust in themselves to take on the new curriculum that you would like them to take? 00:50:14.364 --> 00:50:16.914 They don't have tru- They don't That's why they're doing it the old way. 00:50:17.135 --> 00:50:23.264 They don't believe that they can change'cause it hasn't been proven to them, and they don't trust that this curriculum's gonna be any different. 00:50:23.264 --> 00:50:30.755 So what are you, what are you going to do, and what math experiences are you going to give them that How are you gonna remove the shame around them trying something new? 00:50:30.755 --> 00:50:32.974 I, like, I do think this all really ties. 00:50:32.985 --> 00:50:41.855

Like, I know we've gone in a bit, in a different direction, but this is your world, and this is what you do, and I think it's so important for us to hear that that trust at all levels has to exist through evidence. 00:50:41.855 --> 00:50:49.784 So whatever role you're in, how are you going to provide evidence for the person that you are teaching that they can build a new identity around math? 00:50:49.885 --> 00:50:53.514 I think that's really, really beautiful, and I also think the work that you're doing. 00:50:53.514 --> 00:51:01.135 So one of the other things I would recommend to people who are trying to figure out how to support their systems in doing this work is doing a book study, right? 00:51:01.175 --> 00:51:07.222 I know everybody kind of cringes at a book study or figure out how to put Math Therapy in your teacher's hands. 00:51:07.663 --> 00:51:08.722 Let them explore it. 00:51:08.722 --> 00:51:09.643 Let them look at it. 00:51:10.092 --> 00:51:15.543 As a leader, find your favorite chapter and, and focus in on that space and share it out, right? 00:51:15.543 --> 00:51:21.733 Like, the very first thing I would do would be making that list of let's talk about math things, and working through that process. 00:51:21.742 --> 00:51:31.882 Just again, it was a low-stakes moment that you gave me to ease into thinking about my own experience differently after I had sort of sorted out all of the rest of the mess. 00:51:31.893 --> 00:51:47.853 So I do think actually looking at people who have done great research and who are sharing great experiences and who have just proven track records of having really good conversations around this thing that is very real, and then pushing forward through it. 00:51:48.103 --> 00:51:54.612 We also have to, as a community, which I had to do as a human, decide that we are going to commit to doing the hard thing. 00:51:55.583 --> 00:51:56.253 Womp, womp. 00:51:56.373 --> 00:51:56.753 Right? 00:51:57.713 --> 00:52:01.512 I don't like doing hard things at this age that I'm at. 00:52:01.512 --> 00:52:04.862 It's just not something that I really seek out as much as I should. 00:52:07.023 --> 00:52:09.523 I am committing to doing this hard thing, right? 00:52:09.563 --> 00:52:12.322 I can learn more. 00:52:12.342 --> 00:52:13.253 I can grow more. 00:52:13.253 --> 00:52:14.163 I can think more. 00:52:14.163 --> 00:52:15.932 I can see it differently. 00:52:15.932 --> 00:52:28.523 I can start having conversations with people around why they're feeling the way that they're feeling and point them to the experts and to the great resources and to the incredible humans that I know that can help them shift that lens, right? 00:52:29.105 --> 00:52:31.675 It's interesting'cause I didn't actually want to change. 00:52:32.525 --> 00:52:33.434 We established that. 00:52:34.585 --> 00:52:46.434 But I was compelled to change when people who are and thoughtful And have incredible experiences started pointing it out to me that this was a worthy change. 00:52:46.434 --> 00:52:58.494 This was a change that was not just going to be a thing, but it was gonna actually impact how I thought about all of the things that I care about or how I, um, functioned in my day-to-day life. 00:52:58.554 --> 00:53:12.322 Well, I just think that is the perfect tie-in to the idea of trust, to be honest, I, I think there's a few things here, and I think it's so important that we drive this home, that listening, we would think,"But who wouldn't want to change? 00:53:12.322 --> 00:53:19.842 Who wouldn't want to, uh, suddenly absorb an identity where they can do this thing they've thought they c- they haven't been able to do? 00:53:20.032 --> 00:53:25.353 Who wouldn't want to?" And you guys have to remember, there is so much human psychology around this, right? 00:53:25.373 --> 00:53:31.072 Around the idea, way back in the day when we evolved, the idea of our tribal nature of wanting to be in community. 00:53:31.452 --> 00:53:38.612 And one of the main reasons people do not want to undergo an identity change when they're s- clinged so tightly to it is our ego, right? 00:53:38.612 --> 00:53:42.842 It is what defines us, are the things we feel good at, the things we like, the things we don't like. 00:53:43.032 --> 00:53:55.943 So it's not a matter of, quote-unquote,"proving something wrong." I think this is a conversation Lauren's bringing up that it would be really great to have with the next time somebody, you know, expresses that they're not a math person. 00:53:56.092 --> 00:53:58.583 You know, my favorite first question is:"Interesting. 00:53:58.592 --> 00:54:02.452 Did you ever have a negative experience with math?" letting them talk it out with you. 00:54:02.512 --> 00:54:12.277 And I think I'm now gonna add a new question that I'm gonna play around with, which might be something like I don't know. 00:54:12.277 --> 00:54:21.396 I'm gonna workshop it, but maybe my next question, depending where the conversation would go, goes, would be, what if you could suddenly, like, feel good about math? 00:54:21.407 --> 00:54:22.197 Would you want that? 00:54:22.347 --> 00:54:22.786 You know what I mean? 00:54:22.786 --> 00:54:23.476 Like, I think there would be... 00:54:23.507 --> 00:54:23.806 It would be... 00:54:24.077 --> 00:54:24.257 Right? 00:54:24.257 --> 00:54:29.697 It would be cool to do a question where you're kinda asking the person before you launch into helping them. 00:54:29.706 --> 00:54:33.967 It's like, it's like they say about, like, you know, like alcoholics almost, right? 00:54:33.976 --> 00:54:36.777 Like, it's like you can't help someone unless they wanna help themselves. 00:54:37.117 --> 00:54:42.987 And it's like, thinking about you, there was some deeper work going on there, but there was a curiosity. 00:54:42.996 --> 00:54:44.407 You already had a curiosity. 00:54:44.536 --> 00:54:50.416 What if we have a student or an educator that's just like,"Nope, math was never for me, never

is gonna be for me"? 00:54:50.586 --> 00:54:55.016 My first question might be like,"Tell me, like, have you had a bad experience with math?" I might wanna hear all that. 00:54:55.226 --> 00:54:56.706 And then I might wanna be like,"Would you... 00:54:56.737 --> 00:55:00.416 Like, if, if I could wave a, a magic wand, if I could snap my fingers, if I was... 00:55:00.427 --> 00:55:15.626 You know, if there was a genie in a bottle that could grant you a wish, and suddenly you could, like, understand math and be good at it, would you want that?" And if they said no, I'd be so excited to understand why, and to get them talking about why, because th- you're not the first person to say this to me. 00:55:15.657 --> 00:55:21.436 In my interview with Charizma, which we'll link in the show notes, who I did math therapy with in Bali, she said the same thing. 00:55:21.436 --> 00:55:27.646 She expressed, like,"I don't know who I'd be if I didn't like math," and it unlocked the most amazing conversation. 00:55:27.646 --> 00:55:32.657 Like, she, I don't think she knew she had that thought, just like I don't think you, like, knew you had that thought until it came out. 00:55:32.666 --> 00:55:34.976 And once it's out, it's like cleaning your closet. 00:55:34.976 --> 00:55:39.766 Like, once the clothes are all on the floor, we can start figuring out what needs to be discarded and what to put away. 00:55:39.806 --> 00:55:40.976 Okay, sorry, I went on a whole long rant. 00:55:41.297 --> 00:55:54.007 Um, I just think it's such a valuable takeaway because I certainly never considered that the person I was trying to help might literally not want the help because they're protecting themselves, right? 00:55:54.007 --> 00:55:55.677 Like, they're protecting an identity. 00:55:55.677 --> 00:56:00.947 I ne- I never thought about that, and I think you've really illuminated that for us, so thank you so much. 00:56:01.389 --> 00:56:01.789 Yeah. 00:56:02.038 --> 00:56:03.612 Well, okay, so I never let you finish. 00:56:03.632 --> 00:56:06.032 I wanna wrap up by letting you finish what's next for you. 00:56:06.032 --> 00:56:07.811 You said you were gonna do a year of Duolingo. 00:56:07.822 --> 00:56:09.161 We're gonna get Duolingo on board. 00:56:09.161 --> 00:56:09.931 Stay tuned for that. 00:56:10.161 --> 00:56:11.222 What else are you thinking? 00:56:11.222 --> 00:56:13.512 Is this, has this sparked anything new? 00:56:13.521 --> 00:56:14.351 Like, tell me more 00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:21.331 Yeah, I am just trying to figure out how to make math more alive in my world and in the work that I do. 00:56:21.340 --> 00:56:27.570 So don't know that I'm ever going to be able to enter into a space and be a math curriculum expert, right? 00:56:27.570 --> 00:56:35.621 So I, I do have a depth of knowledge on literacy or ELA curriculums, and that's something that I can walk into and easily have conversations about. 00:56:35.940 --> 00:56:51.550 But what I can start really thinking about, like

I said earlier, um, or alluded to earlier, is just how we talk to people about literacy, how we talk to people about math, and how that lives in their worlds, in their classrooms, and in their districts. 00:56:51.550 --> 00:56:56.800 So I do think that those are conversations that I can start trying to be a little bit more active in. 00:56:57.244 --> 00:57:01.443 Also, I'm just trying to find more opportunities to let math live in my everyday world. 00:57:01.443 --> 00:57:05.693 So that was a pivotal moment yesterday with hanging that crazy picture in this 00:57:05.998 --> 00:57:06.878 I love it 00:57:07.623 --> 00:57:27.492 So just trying to be-- And one of it-- part of it too is just sort of releasing that I'm not a math person anxiety, embracing that being a mather, being a learner, being someone who's willing to, to try and do, but pointing to those moments in my life where I do a math thing successfully or unsuccessfully in the natural world and being thrilled about it. 00:57:27.612 --> 00:57:29.733 I was thrilled about doing fractions yesterday. 00:57:29.983 --> 00:57:32.742 I was thrilled about calculating the tip a couple of weeks ago. 00:57:32.742 --> 00:57:33.393 I was thrilled 00:57:33.583 --> 00:57:34.244 Oh my God 00:57:34.333 --> 00:57:42.530 there are just a couple, a handful of things that I've done that I thought, man, I, six months ago, would not even have attempted, and here I am. 00:57:42.766 --> 00:57:48.666 I, I am blown away because I'm like, truly what I'm thinking is I love math therapizing everyone. 00:57:48.666 --> 00:57:50.407 I want everyone to build a better relationship with math. 00:57:50.686 --> 00:58:07.197 I feel there's something very special about the person you are who does the work you do, where you are dealing with so many teachers who likely have their own math trauma, because we know that a very large, proportion of elementary teachers have their own trauma around math. 00:58:07.407 --> 00:58:15.407 You are like this beacon of light amongst this group of people, and I always say we might not all be teachers of math, but we're all teachers of math attitude. 00:58:15.407 --> 00:58:17.766 So even if you guys aren't talking about math, right? 00:58:17.876 --> 00:58:18.797 That's good. 00:58:19.416 --> 00:58:20.646 That's good 00:58:20.677 --> 00:58:20.737 thank you. 00:58:22.577 --> 00:58:24.987 But you are, uh, you are with the people, right? 00:58:24.987 --> 00:58:27.016 The people who need, who need to hear this, who need... 00:58:27.056 --> 00:58:41.987 So I feel like you truly are doing the people's work, and I'm so curious what your reaction is going to be or has been if this has happened next time you're among a group of educators and they say something like,"Oh yeah, well, I'm glad we're talking about reading. 00:58:41.987 --> 00:58:44.266 This is why I never, you know, I'm so glad I don't teach maths. 00:58:44.266 --> 00:58:47.617 I'm not a math person." Or like, what, what do you think you'll do? 00:58:48.543 --> 00:58:57.402 I'm gonna steal what you exactly just said, and I'm gonna credit you with it, that, you know, we might not all be teachers of math, but we're all teachers of math attitudes, because I think it's beautiful. 00:58:57.413 --> 00:59:09.552 What a better way to communicate that it may not be the subject that I'm singly focused on, but I sure am teaching children how to feel about it or how to think about it or how to internalize their own self-worth around it, right? 00:59:10.083 --> 00:59:17.713 So that's exactly what I'm going to say back to them and, and, and, and join your math committee next time. 00:59:17.722 --> 00:59:24.043 Figure out how to be a part of that curriculum selection the next time you're in the room and you have that opportunity or have a conversation about it. 00:59:24.052 --> 00:59:28.302 But I think that's my big light bulb moment in this conversation. 00:59:28.333 --> 00:59:35.333 Well, I've had so many in this conversation that we've had, but I really genuinely believe that that's a phrase that carries so much weight and impact. 00:59:35.782 --> 00:59:49.822 And on top of that, while you were talking, it popped in my brain that we have this saying in education that basically, um, what's a good kind of reteach strategy for one student is likely a good reteach strategy for every student in the room. 00:59:49.833 --> 01:00:03.682 So, you know, when we, when we dig in or we, um, intervene or we teach something a little bit deeper, it's probably good for everybody to have an at bat with it too because it just sharpens our skills and gives us the opportunity to expand our thinking. 01:00:04.023 --> 01:00:12.992 And it made me think one of the best things any district can do when they're thinking about how they teach math is host a math therapy session. 01:00:13.003 --> 01:00:20.443 And I mean that genuinely and tru-truly, not just from a, like, we're buddies and I wanna promote everything you do always and forever and want everyone to use you. 01:00:20.952 --> 01:00:30.322 But I actually just in piecing all of this together, what a great entry point for everyone, math haters, math lovers, mathers in the middle. 01:00:30.882 --> 01:00:47.702 What a great entry point for everyone to walk in the room together and be able to values align on what matters in what we're doing every day, and digging into how we feel and think and act about math so that we can start thinking about how we're inviting students to internalize that themselves. 01:00:48.663 --> 01:00:59.253 And I think I'm gonna take back everything that I said before about what I would tell people to do and how I would do my own work if I were to go back in time as an administrator, and I'd still do that stuff. 01:00:59.273 --> 01:01:04.672 But the first thing I would do is engage in a math therapy-- in some math therapy work, right? 01:01:04.672 --> 01:01:13.952 Like really digging into the, to the book, really thinking about the strategies and

practices that you did with me that weren't a heavy-- They-- I hope they weren't a heavy lift for you. 01:01:14.722 --> 01:01:17.932 But they were great, a great heavy lift for me. 01:01:17.932 --> 01:01:25.813 It was thinking and really doing what teachers love to do, which is to get better at what they're doing so that they're better serving the students that are in the classroom. 01:01:26.072 --> 01:01:27.702 And math therapy is the entry point. 01:01:27.943 --> 01:01:29.172 I genuinely believe it. 01:01:30.840 --> 01:01:33.090 Well, like, should I even say anything else? 01:01:33.101 --> 01:01:37.590 Like, I mean, you just, you just Like, that was You're, you're unbelievable at what you do. 01:01:37.590 --> 01:01:39.121 You're now also my official mascot. 01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:41.800 Lauren, I have loved this so much. 01:01:41.840 --> 01:01:43.221 I could talk to you for hours. 01:01:44.045 --> 01:01:47.596 to ask the two final questions that I ask everyone. 01:01:47.606 --> 01:01:48.925 You have 30 seconds to answer. 01:01:48.925 --> 01:01:57.615 And before I do, I wanna tell you guys, I think Lauren and I, if you're listening and something here resonated with you, and you were like,"Oh my God, that's me. 01:01:57.635 --> 01:02:02.755 I think I might not wanna let go of my identity of not being a math person," can you text us? 01:02:03.016 --> 01:02:03.606 Yes 01:02:03.965 --> 01:02:05.085 Hit the link in your show notes. 01:02:05.266 --> 01:02:06.076 I wanna know. 01:02:06.076 --> 01:02:10.706 I wanna, I wanna know if you, like, are like,"Yep, that might be me," and I want to know why. 01:02:10.715 --> 01:02:10.956 Like, 01:02:11.048 --> 01:02:11.878 Yes, me too 01:02:11.936 --> 01:02:13.346 and also, right? 01:02:13.346 --> 01:02:19.585 We wanna know, I also just love what you just said there about, like, this work around math therapy is thinking work, right? 01:02:19.585 --> 01:02:20.565 It's thinking and reflecting. 01:02:20.695 --> 01:02:22.695 We want our students to think and reflect in math. 01:02:22.985 --> 01:02:26.445 Start by having them think and reflect about their feelings around math. 01:02:26.615 --> 01:02:27.485 Okay, are you ready? 01:02:27.516 --> 01:02:27.755 Two 01:02:27.858 --> 01:02:28.239 Yes. 01:02:28.266 --> 01:02:29.195 30 seconds to answer. 01:02:29.518 --> 01:02:29.809 Okay 01:02:30.005 --> 01:02:34.516 one, someone's listening to this, they're like,"Oh my God, I- Lauren, she's so inspiring. 01:02:34.516 --> 01:02:35.675 She's incredible. 01:02:35.675 --> 01:02:41.335 Oh my God, but the thing is, I, sin- I, since as long as I can remember, I have known I'm not a math person. 01:02:41.335 --> 01:02:43.045 This does not apply to me." What would you say? 01:02:43.931 --> 01:02:45.451 Uh, you're a person person first. 01:02:46.731 --> 01:02:49.791 So we're not math people, we're not reading people. 01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:51.621 I'm stealing it from Deborah. 01:02:51.690 --> 01:02:52.981 It really made an impact on

me. 01:02:53.001 --> 01:02:59.940 But we're learners, so I invite you to come be a learner with me, and let's learn not math, not reading 01:02:59.981 --> 01:03:00.661 l- love that. 01:03:00.782 --> 01:03:01.731 Is that what she says? 01:03:01.742 --> 01:03:03.311 We're learners and that's it, 01:03:03.677 --> 01:03:06.827 No, I think she says something more beautiful than that that makes a lot more sense. 01:03:06.836 --> 01:03:12.806 But basically her point is like mathers, writers, readers, they're people who are out there doing a thing. 01:03:13.077 --> 01:03:13.847 We're learners. 01:03:13.847 --> 01:03:14.887 We're out here doing a thing. 01:03:14.916 --> 01:03:15.867 Let's just learn together. 01:03:15.876 --> 01:03:18.516 Remove the boundary of it's math 01:03:19.456 --> 01:03:20.315 I really like that. 01:03:20.496 --> 01:03:26.056 Okay, and finally, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the way math is taught in school right now, what would it be? 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:27.710 Oh my goodness. 01:03:27.791 --> 01:03:31.550 I would, um, eliminate fully and completely time testing. 01:03:31.891 --> 01:03:32.610 You know why. 01:03:32.650 --> 01:03:38.981 We talked about this deeply, but it does not serve the purpose that we want it to serve. 01:03:39.291 --> 01:03:43.686 And it does a tremendous load of damage on students that's life lifelong, right? 01:03:43.695 --> 01:03:45.155 Like poster child here. 01:03:45.155 --> 01:03:46.465 So no more time tests. 01:03:46.846 --> 01:03:48.175 It would help a lot of hearts 01:03:49.623 --> 01:03:51.083 You're so great. 01:03:51.083 --> 01:03:56.233 I wanna move to your Christmas tree farm and just have our own show and talk about this all the time. 01:03:56.233 --> 01:04:02.114 We could have our own guests, and we could do Math Therapy together because I feel like now you're, like, official, right? 01:04:02.114 --> 01:04:03.123 Like, you could be doing the work. 01:04:03.153 --> 01:04:04.184 We could be doing it together. 01:04:04.422 --> 01:04:04.822 Yeah 01:04:04.983 --> 01:04:05.844 cop, bad cop. 01:04:05.853 --> 01:04:06.434 You know what I mean? 01:04:06.434 --> 01:04:07.324 But we're both the good cop 01:04:07.612 --> 01:04:09.831 I was gonna say, I think that doesn't work'cause we're both the good cop. 01:04:12.019 --> 01:04:14.719 Lauren, you were so-- Okay, first of all, pause before I wrap up. 01:04:14.769 --> 01:04:17.579 Is there anything you wanted to say that you didn't get the chance to say? 01:04:17.668 --> 01:04:18.148 No. 01:04:18.418 --> 01:04:36.748 I just wanted to really point to how incredible I don't think that I articulated well just what a big thing your time in my life that day has been over the course of the past couple of months in just reshaping how I really internalize math for myself and for the people in my world. 01:04:36.748 --> 01:04:42.128 So ultimately, if I could say the one thing that I wanna say, it's just really, like, thanks. 01:04:42.288 --> 01:04:54.478 Thank you for conceptualizing this thing, doing this work, not being afraid of people who are really resistant in general to math and likely have terrible attitudes about it. 01:04:54.487 --> 01:04:55.398 That's hard work to do. 01:04:55.427 --> 01:05:00.679 So you have changed this human being in a really, really big way 01:05:01.460 --> 01:05:07.989 you know, it means so much to me,'cause sometimes I feel like, oh my God, we spent, like, an hour and a half- well, we spent the day together, but, 01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:08.210 Yeah. 01:05:08.389 --> 01:05:09.789 one time together, 01:05:09.889 --> 01:05:10.210 Yeah 01:05:10.250 --> 01:05:18.599 I know a lot of people will say, like, you know,"There's no such thing as one and done," and,"How effective is it?" And I'm like, I always feel like, of course, it would be amazing if I could meet with you every single week. 01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:19.219 Like, sure. 01:05:19.500 --> 01:05:24.289 But I think I want everyone listening to This isn't to, like, just boost myself here. 01:05:24.289 --> 01:05:26.690 Like, I'm just saying what you said, so you've said it for me. 01:05:26.929 --> 01:05:30.239 But it's like, don't underestimate the impact you can have in one interaction. 01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:33.820 You can turn a student off of math in one interaction. 01:05:33.820 --> 01:05:37.639 You can say something that turns them off of math, and you can say something that really boosts their confidence. 01:05:37.639 --> 01:05:39.769 So fine, we all wish we had more time. 01:05:39.789 --> 01:05:43.320 I wish I could move to Lauren's Christmas tree farm and hang out and do math therapy with her every day. 01:05:43.590 --> 01:05:47.570 But you still are making an impact just in one interaction, so that actually means a lot. 01:05:47.873 --> 01:05:48.284 Okay. 01:05:49.521 --> 01:05:50.916 this is our own Christmas rom-com. 01:05:51.181 --> 01:05:52.360 I think we're best friends forever. 01:05:52.690 --> 01:05:52.960 Oh, yeah. 01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:54.900 Put some Christmas music in this part. 01:05:55.179 --> 01:05:56.489 Oh, yeah 01:05:56.701 --> 01:05:57.170 ho, ho. 01:05:59.943 --> 01:06:00.324 Okay. 01:06:00.344 --> 01:06:04.744 Was that not the best non-Love Island reunion literally ever? 01:06:05.123 --> 01:06:07.443 I mean, talk about a Hallmark rom-com ending. 01:06:07.474 --> 01:06:17.804 And yes, I know I'm mixing up Hollywood tropes and metaphors, but what I'm really trying to say is I'm so grateful to Lauren for sharing her story with us, and I really do want to move to her Christmas tree farm. 01:06:18.264 --> 01:06:27.153 If you or anyone you know are struggling with math trauma, I hope this two-part series gave you hope that it's never too late to build a happier, healthier relationship with math. 01:06:27.784 --> 01:06:36.384 I always say that confidence isn't just positive thinking, it's remembered evidence, and I hope this series serves as evidence that it can happen for anyone, including you. 01:06:37.003 --> 01:06:48.088 Also, guys, I'm not even joking, I've emailed three people at Duolingo and DM'd two of them on LinkedIn, and I'm serious about getting this sponsorship, so if you know anyone who knows anyone who works there, text me. 01:06:48.099 --> 01:06:51.208 Hit the Text Us link in your show notes and spill the tea. 01:06:51.338 --> 01:06:52.338 Let's make this happen. 01:06:52.583 --> 01:06:55.409 #Manifesting#seeyounextweek