Jakson Leading Orthopaedics Through Career Transitions At Penn State with Kevin Black, MD, FAOA täydellinen litterointi

--> 00:05:23.360 April doesn't quite fit that, but I think we can remember an honorary number. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:25.839 And April's chair now, right? 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:39.360 So and I would also mention Johnny Elfar, who's now the chair at Arizona, and in my mind, uh tremendously talented orthopedic surgeon and researcher and educator. 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:44.720 And I am sure that his leadership responsibilities will increase in the years ahead. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:56.720 So the really spectacular chairs and the majority of chairs that I know across the landscape of the U.S. 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:03.120 never, if you really sit back and talk with them, they never intended to become chairs. 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:11.439 They came in like you did to be really, really good at sports medicine and be a fantastic sports medicine surgeon. 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.639 And then these things just rolled out and presented themselves. 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:15.680 Would you agree with that? 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:16.720 100%. 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.920 So what do you think of that transition? 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:24.319 Let's just talk about the transition from I want to be excellent clinically. 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.600 This is a whole different portion of our brain that does leadership. 00:06:27.680 --> 00:06:29.839 I mean, I know everybody in the AOA knows that. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.879 It's much different. 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.160 You can be a fantastic orthopedic surgeon and fail miserably in leadership. 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:37.600 That's a different thing. 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:39.120 How does that work out? 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:44.079 It probably works out differently for different individuals. 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.480 As you stated, I never envisioned myself as an orthopedic department chair. 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:57.360 I wanted to be a good doctor, a good educator, contribute to the literature, and have my kids know who their dad was as they were growing up. 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:19.839 Perhaps three to four months after I took on responsibility as interim chair of the department, several of the faculty approached me and asked if I would be willing to throw my hat into the ring for the department chair job. 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.439 And that was tremendously gratifying. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:36.399 I think probably the reason Doug it worked out that way, is that I became the chair at a time of transition for the organization. 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:41.040 We had been merged with Geisinger, we had come out of the merger with Geisinger. 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.680 There was a fair amount of unrestation. 00:07:46.319 --> 00:08:02.959 And I think my focus at that time as interim, not knowing that I was going to be the department chair, was really to hold the department together, understand what the sources of unrest were, and work to address them. 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:13.439 And it just evolved

from there that I had good relationships, not only with people in my department, but with the other department chairs. 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.399 I had been in Hershey for about eight years when that transition occurred. 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.600 And I found the work really gratifying. 00:08:21.839 --> 00:08:30.959 And it's one of those things that I think to some degree, we are all wired to do certain things really well. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:39.519 And of all the things that we do, there probably are some things that we are just coded to do far better than others. 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:43.120 And I think in many situations we don't know what they are. 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:50.960 And then a situation presents itself, we accept that opportunity. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:56.080 And this was a situation for me where I really enjoyed it. 00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.759 There was tremendous gratification for me in it. 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.440 And it made sense for me to pursue it. 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.720 I think that is what resulted in me becoming the chair. 00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:10.559 So correct me if I'm off base here. 00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:21.759 And we all, I think we could all agree that leadership principles can be learned, and leadership can certainly be refined through education and training and mentorship. 00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:36.559 But what I hear you saying to a certain degree is that the ability to really succeed in this sometimes depends on an inherent genetic or some other predisposition that people have toward it. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.440 I think that is definitely the case. 00:09:39.600 --> 00:10:02.559 But I would also say that I can't think of a single thing, Doug, that any of us do at a high level that is not some combination of genetic predisposition, life experiences, and the effort that we put in it to take whatever competencies we may have and get better at it. 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:03.679 Right. 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:05.440 No, I get you there. 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:16.799 However, you can be the best sports medicine surgeon in the world and really struggle in leadership as a department chair. 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:25.360 Of course, you can lead up from the sidelines, lead in your operating room, lead on the team as that sports medicine physician or an orthoplasty surgeon or trauma respine, whatever. 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:32.879 So there is a certain degree of different skill sets and different education, different talents that require you to be a good chair. 00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.519 Completely agree. 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:49.519 And I think aside from the credibility of being a physician that you could bring to a leadership role, I 100% agree that the leadership competencies are very different. 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.399 And I think central to it is integrity. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:58.960 I think if if you can't uh trust the messenger, you can't trust the message. 00:10:59.600 -->

00:11:01.919 So I think integrity is foundational. 00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:11.279 You can be a very dishonest person and you could be a despicable human being and motivate people to follow you, but it doesn't make you a great leader. 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.519 But I do think that integrity is central to it. 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:23.120 To me, it's the ability or the willingness to put the needs of others ahead of yourself. 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:30.159 And I think a major part of my experience with that really is just related to the family I was raised in. 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:41.600 My parents committed themselves to giving me and my siblings opportunities that they would not have, that they never had. 00:11:41.840 --> 00:12:02.080 And I had great mentors, Matt Everts, we mentioned before, John Berkfeld from my fellowship, just incredible people that I don't remember consciously thinking this, but when I look back on my experiences with them, I am 100% certain that I was thinking I want to be like them. 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.960 To some degree, I want to do the kind of things that they need to do. 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:26.000 And when I look at all those influences that I had, clearly a servant leader type culture, clearly people that could anticipate what was going to happen down the road, they project where healthcare was going or where sports medicine was going. 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:41.039 People that were very positive about things, that, you know, even when days were hard, they stood tall, they remained positive, and they conveyed that sort of positivity to others. 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:49.120 And I think when you put those things together, it just allows you to establish credibility with others. 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:56.720 I will say that if you had asked me 20 years ago, I didn't have that formulated in my head. 00:12:56.960 --> 00:13:12.720 But now when I look back on why I had all these incredible opportunities that I did, I think it was those things in combination that allowed me to be successful and move forward with other opportunities. 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:14.240 Very good. 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:15.279 I'd like to thank you. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:28.000 So I had it significantly different from many of y'all who come up through the department and become chair because when I came here, I had no practice at all. 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.879 So I didn't have to cut back on my clinical practice yet. 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:34.799 As you said, you are a very busy, very successful sports medicine doctor. 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:48.240 And as a sports surgeon, y'all have a lot of pressures on you guys covering teams and all that, you know, you guys get called all the time about, hey, I've got this VIP that needs to be seen for his knee or shoulder or whatever. 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:50.879 And they suddenly give you guys those calls. 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:55.440 How did you navigate the cut in your clinical exposure? 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:58.799 And I know I talked to April about this when she became chair there. 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:08.320 How did you navigate that cut from very one full 100% FTE sports medicine surgeon to a fraction of that so that you could effectively be chair? 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:12.320 How did you make that step down since you already had a busy practice there? 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.559 You couldn't walk in de novo like I did. 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:16.960 Yeah, it was a gradual process. 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:28.879 And I think it's important to remember, Doug, that when I took on the role of chair, it was a much easier job than it is to be an orthopedic department chair right now. 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:35.679 The dynamics, the relationships, the scope of work is much larger now. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:43.840 So when I went into the interim role, I did not cut back on my clinical practice at all. 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:45.759 I just worked harder. 00:14:46.399 --> 00:15:00.240 And when I did become chair in 2002, I didn't cut back, but it was important to me to have credibility with my colleagues to maintain a busy clinical practice. 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.559 And actually, that was an oversimplification. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.320 I enjoyed taking care of patients. 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.519 I enjoyed the operating room, I enjoyed the clinic. 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:26.799 The first time I really cut back to a major degree was when I became the vice dean for the regional campus, which and our college of medicine is two hours from the main campus, and we established a regional medical campus for our medical students up there in 2012. 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.559 And I started going up there as the vice dean in 2013. 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:33.840 That was tremendously time consuming. 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.960 So that was a major decrease in my clinical activity. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.519 And I think I cut back to about 50% clinical at that time. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.399 I forget exactly what the numbers were. 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:51.440 And even when I transitioned into the dean role, I continued to do surgery and I continued to see patients. 00:15:51.600 --> 00:16:02.240 But the reality was that about eight months into my time as the interim dean, COVID hit, and everybody's clinical practice shut down at that time. 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.519 So for me, it was a gradual process. 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:10.159 I had a great team of people around me that supported me. 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:17.039 And I clearly had a lesser clinical commitment than other people in my department. 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:25.600 But I think it in part because I became a chair at a very young age, I learned how to navigate the administrative responsibilities. 00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:37.440 I was able to manage my clinical practice in parallel to my administrative responsibilities, really, until I took on a lot of work for

the University of the State College. 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:49.840 You remind me, as you talk about this in a previous part of life when I foolishly probably considered more political aspirations in the public space. 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:55.519 Tom Price came out of my role practice in resurgence, and I knew Congressman and then Secretary Price fairly well. 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:02.960 And one thing he said was an advantage that doctors have on Capitol Hill is we work way harder than anybody else. 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:10.400 That's kind of what I'm hearing from you is that yeah, I had a very busy clinical practice, and then I added a very busy chair part of it. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:11.759 I just worked hard. 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:13.200 True. 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:25.759 And within reason, and I don't want it to sound heroic because it's my wiring, and I've been this way since I was a child, is to get up at four or five o'clock on Saturdays every day. 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:27.599 I don't use an alarm clock. 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:37.279 So it was easy for me to get up at five o'clock on a Saturday morning, even when my kids were young, and get two or three hours of work in. 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:43.279 And then when the kids would come down, I would close my work and I would spend my time with them. 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:49.839 The reality is that as a team physician, you spend a lot of time in the training room and covering games. 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:54.480 And my kids routinely came to the training when they did not have games. 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:59.279 They would come to the training room with me on Saturday mornings, and I would bring them in. 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:03.680 This was an era where I could bring them in to make rounds with me in the hospital. 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:06.480 So it was time for us to spend together. 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:18.960 And when I was in Wisconsin, I spent a couple of years as a consultant for Green Bay, and that travel was hard because I'm traveling back and forth to Green Bay a couple of times a week. 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:24.400 Fortunately, my kids did not know whether they were seeing dad at six o'clock at night or 10 o'clock. 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:35.519 But it was clear to me that type of time commitment was not something that I wanted to continue to do. 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:43.839 For me, the beauty of coming to Hershey and taking care of an American Hockey League team was that I could get to the arena in 10 minutes. 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:50.160 I had such great flexibility and I could bring my kids to the games with me, and they could be a part of that. 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.200 So, in that sense, the stars really lined up. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:12.880 And I was blessed to be able to manage these things in part because of my circadian rhythm, I guess, my DNA, in part because of the fact that I live in a small town where I've never had a commute to work that was greater than 12 minutes. 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:20.799 And everything I needed to do is in a very small community, and it allowed me to balance things to a greater degree. 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.200 That's a tremendous advantage. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:34.720 We talked about your evolution from a busy clinical practitioner into maintaining your clinical practice and then the increasing responsibilities you had as chair. 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:41.359 Then you entered the area of rarefied air that few get to in these two dean positions. 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:42.559 Can you tell us about that a little bit? 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.920 Tell us about how you got selected into that and the roles that you played there. 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:51.039 I'm happy to delete the regional medical campus vice dean role. 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.359 Really came 100% out of the blue. 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:05.279 And we just established a regional medical campus for 23 third and fourth year students at that time. 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:24.240 We had an individual on that campus who was a great human being, but a big part of the job at that time was navigating relationships between Hershey Medical Center and Mount Nitney Medical Center. 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:38.000 And I don't know the details, but I know there was some tension at that time between Dean, the medical center, Mount Nitney, the relationships, and it wasn't going well. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:46.079 I don't think the challenge was related to uh deficiencies in uh educational content. 00:20:46.160 --> 00:21:04.319 It was really, and this is just my sense, but it was the ability to navigate the relationships between Hershey Medical Center and an organization and a hospital two hours away where we had a relatively small group of physicians. 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:11.759 The ability of the individual in the role at that time to navigate those relationships became very strained. 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:17.119 I think it is in part because of the fact that he came from an outside organization. 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:21.759 He didn't know the people in Hershey and he didn't know the people in the state college. 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:37.519 I moved into that role really quickly based on a phone call from the dean of the medical school at that time, who, at that time, the dean had the role of dean and CEO, dean of the College of Medicine and CEO of the Medical Center. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:45.279 He called me one morning and said that the individual in the state college was resigning, and can I do this? 00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.799 And I really said, Let me think about it. 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:58.240 And in retrospect, when I look back on that period of time, I had already been a chair for a fairly lengthy period of time. 00:21:58.400 --> 00:21:59.759 So I had been orthopedic to. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.359 Chair for 10 years, 11 years, maybe. 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.000 And the department was going well.

00:22:06.079 --> 00:22:09.279 And I do think in the back of my head at that time, I said, so what's next? 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:10.400 What else can I do? 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:12.480 Because the department is doing well. 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:22.480 I actually had been asked at that time to consider the role that I'm currently in as vice dean for education, to consider that job. 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:27.920 But in order to do that, I would have had to give up my role as department chair. 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.119 And I did not want to do that. 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:32.000 I loved being an Orthopedic Department Chair. 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:44.079 So after thinking about it for a little bit, it allowed me to number one stay in my role as the chair of the Orthodox Department. 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:52.400 And also take on some new challenges and branch out in ways that I really did not have significant experience in. 00:22:52.480 --> 00:23:03.599 The scholarship of education was something that I had done some work in, but not at this level, not at this kind of administrative role. 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:12.720 And getting to know more people in the university as well as the community hospital up there, to me was an interesting thing to take on. 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.799 And I think that is what motivated me to do it. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:31.440 So you talked a little bit about it, but are there specific skill sets or talents that you feel are is a difference between being department chair and the dean role? 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:33.119 And how big a jump is that? 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:41.200 Can you compare the jump from department chair to dean versus the jump from clinical orthopedic surgeon to chair? 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:48.000 I think the biggest jump was from being a department chair to the dean. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:48.720 Really? 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:49.039 Okay. 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:49.839 I didn't expect that. 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:58.240 More so than being a clinical faculty member and becoming the department chair, in part because of the preparation I had. 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:13.039 And when I look back, I forget exactly what years this was, but I remember via the AUA going to Kellogg at Northwestern and going to the University of Chicago for some leadership development programs. 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:23.680 And so I had a fair amount of, I felt like foundational preparation that allowed me to take on the department chair role. 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.680 And I had great administrative support within the department. 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.839 So I did not feel that it was that hard. 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:41.440 And my focus at that time was really, well, you need to look at the medical center and the college of medicine broadly while you're a department chair. 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:46.319 I could be more focused on the operations of the department. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:53.839 In moving to from the

department chair to the dean role, the relationships changed. 00:24:54.160 --> 00:25:05.119 So individuals that I had been fellow department chairs with now became people that reported to me, both on the clinical side and on the basic science side. 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:10.079 Certainly my scope of responsibilities had to broaden. 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:22.640 As a department chair, even though we were having a lot of success in regard to research, and I thought we had a great residency education program, the focus was really on clinical activities. 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:36.319 When I moved into the dean role, the responsibilities became much broader, in part because just before I moved into that role, they separated the responsibilities of the dean and the CEO of the organization. 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.759 And the dean's responsibilities really became one of research and education. 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.160 So the department chairs, including the department chairs, still reported to the dean. 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:51.839 But clinical operations really now flowed through the health system to a CEO. 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.680 The relationships had to extend beyond my department chairs. 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:08.960 So now I was interacting with people from the university, people that I really rarely ever saw before, in part because it's a two-hour distance from the main campus down to the College of Medicine. 00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:20.000 And now you're also navigating relationships with board members, both for Hershey Medical Center and the Penn State Health Board and the Penn State University Board. 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:27.599 And as a department chair, those were experiences that I had very limited insights into. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.640 So that was a role that I really had to grow into. 00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:32.400 Wow. 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.799 So like I said, that is rarefied error. 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:36.720 A lot of folks never step into that. 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.599 So can you compare and contrast the two different roles? 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:46.720 So you were in the first role, and then in September of 23, you stepped down from there? 00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:55.680 So I moved into the interim dean of the College of Medicine role in July of 2019. 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.039 And I stayed in that role until September of 2023. 00:26:59.440 --> 00:26:59.759 Okay. 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.640 Prior to that time, I had been the orthopedic department chair. 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:13.680 But for the seven years leading up to that, while I was orthopedic department chair, I was in the role of vice dean for our regional medical campus. 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:14.960 Okay. 00:27:15.200 --> 00:27:21.759 And then what did you do once you stepped down from there before you became the vice dean for education? 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:32.400 So I was the vice dean for education from 2013 to 2019 while I was still orthopedic department chair. 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:43.440 Then in 2019, when I went into the role of interim dean, I stepped out of the role of the vice dean of the original medical campus. 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:49.119 I basically just continued with those responsibilities because I had those relationships established. 00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.599 And that is when April Armstrong became the acting chair of the department. 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.599 She became acting chair because my goal was really to go back and be the orthopedic department chair. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:04.400 But for a variety of reasons, one of which was COVID. 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:16.400 The provost for the university, in my first year as the interim dean, so 2019 to 2020, the provost asked me if I would consider staying on for a period of time. 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:20.640 I really didn't know what a period of time was going to be. 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.119 But it was in my second year as the interim dean. 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:36.960 Now it's this is 2020 to 2021, when I did not feel that I was doing the department a service by keeping April in an acting chair role. 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:46.559 And it was clear to me that I was going to be in the interim dean role for an uncertain, to be determined period of time. 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:52.880 And that's when I started the search for a new orthopedic department chair, and that ultimately became April. 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:53.599 Okay. 00:28:54.880 --> 00:29:02.480 So I think you told me before we got on the microphone that you may hold the record at Penn State for interim dean. 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:11.839 I think when I look at my interim roles, I was an interim chair of orthopedics for pretty much a year. 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:17.920 I was interim dean of the medical school for over four years. 00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:27.440 And in February of 2027, I will be the interim vice dean for educational affairs for two years. 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:35.839 So seven years out of maybe 34-year tenure at Penn State in interim roles. 00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:38.880 Wow, okay. 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:41.200 And you still are clinical at this point. 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.599 No, I actually shut down my clinical practice in my last year as interim dean. 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:54.000 And the reason behind that was when I moved into the dean role, I did decrease my clinic time. 00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:58.480 And what I found was that my surgical practice started to decrease. 00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:02.880 And then COVID hit in March of 20. 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:12.000 And the university asked me to take on some other COVID-related roles, leadership roles with the university. 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:24.480 It was pretty clear to me that at least for an extended period of time, I was not going to be able to build up a busy clinical practice again. 00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:33.519 And the thought occurred to me at that point,

at what point do you start to lose your surgical skills? 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:40.079 And once that thought popped into my head, I was very uncomfortable with myself. 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:44.960 And I certainly did not feel that my skills had deteriorated. 00:30:45.279 --> 00:31:04.960 But if you're not a busy surgeon, it occurred to me that the reason I was continuing to do surgery was for me and not for my patients, because I had other people in the department that were just as good technically as I was and were able to do the same work that I was doing. 00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:16.160 And I just did not want to be somebody that people, you know, where the discussion started that he's lost it or he's not as sharp as he was in the operating room. 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:21.200 So at that time I made the decision that I was going to stop doing surgery. 00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:26.400 And then I continued to see patients in the clinic for another couple of years. 00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.440 But for a variety of reasons. 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.480 And one of the reasons was not going to the OR and then not following them afterwards. 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:37.839 Seeing patients in the clinic just was not enjoyable. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.960 There were other administrative issues, right, that made clinic harder. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:45.519 But I just made the decision. 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.440 I've had a great career clinically and I've loved taking care of patients. 00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.200 And in fact, patients still calling the office and wanting appointments. 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.000 They call the medical school saying they want to see me. 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.319 But it was time to stop. 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.400 Let me ask you a couple of impossible questions here. 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.079 So let's look at your three roles. 00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:13.039 Number one is clinical orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine, and compare that to department chair, compare that to the dean roles. 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.799 Which did you find the most challenging of the three? 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:18.880 It's an impossible question. 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:24.400 Yeah, it so it was not being an orthopedic department chair. 00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:34.799 It was hard work, but you as a department chair, everybody in your department in general is rowing in the same direction. 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:36.559 You are unified. 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:43.519 The time as Dean was challenging, and I would say in every role, I have had great people around me. 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:52.400 I've just had a great team of people to work with and support me and provide guidance to me on things that I was not a content expert for. 00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:08.559 When I went into the dean role, there was actually much like when I became a department chair, there was this there was a fair amount of unrest in the organization because they had just separated for the very first time the roles of the dean and the CEO. 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:20.880 And many of the clinical faculty here were unhappy with that, and they were looking for leadership from somebody that they could identify with as a physician. 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:36.960 It was also challenging in the sense that while I had a great relationship with my basic science chair colleagues, I did not know anywhere near the same number of basic scientists as I did clinical faculty. 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:48.319 And I think it's fair to say that I had to work to establish credibility with that component of the faculty that I did not have to do with the clinical faculty so much. 00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:55.599 And with COVID, there was a significant reduction in funds flow coming to the College of Medicine from the health system. 00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:03.279 So our model here at Penn State is that the College of Medicine has to be financially self-sufficient. 00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.920 We do not receive dollars from the university. 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:08.239 We do not receive dollars from the state. 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.800 Our subsidy comes from the health system. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:21.440 So when the health system had financial challenges at that time, it created some real issues in terms of making ends meet in the college. 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:26.639 So that was a really challenging thing to go through. 00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:49.280 The role I'm in right now, I think parallels it in the sense that when our previous vice dean for education resigned in February of 2025, we were nine months away from having to submit our materials, our reaccreditation materials for the LCME. 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.760 And that is a world that I never lived in before. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:59.679 The whole reaccreditation process was on-the-job training for me. 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:05.440 And we were significantly behind in terms of our readiness. 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:09.760 So if you were to say to me, what is the hardest period of time that you worked? 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:31.199 It was the interval between February of 2025 and November of 2025, when we had to get our shop in order, create a 700-page reaccreditation document, and get that material submitted to the LCME. 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.800 So I don't think I ever worked harder than I did in that period of time. 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:43.199 Thankfully, just like everything else, the team of people that surrounded me, they were remarkable human beings. 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:48.800 And they just joined me and worked equally hard. 00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:53.199 And ultimately, it led to our successful reaccreditation. 00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:01.440 So when I look at those situations, they were all tremendously gratifying. 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:17.760 But I think the challenges associated with the Dean role and the vice dean for education and preparing for reaccreditation, those last two roles, there were certain issues that lined up that created a perfect storm. 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:26.159 And I really had to draw upon every leadership experience I had had to move the organization forward. 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.920 Which one do you think you enjoyed the most about three roles? 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:32.400 Being orthopedic department chair. 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:33.039 Okay. 00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:34.480 That's fair. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:36.480 I could clearly see that. 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.960 And just they were all great roles. 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.360 My goal was to retire as an orthopedic department chair. 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.480 And it was just an easier job. 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:53.920 And but each of the roles that I've had really, I consider myself blessed to have had those kinds of experiences. 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:59.039 Because if I go back to starting my career, once again, I wanted to be a good doctor. 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880 I wanted to be a good educator. 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:03.519 I wanted to contribute to the literature. 00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:09.039 And I wanted to be a good family person and to have the opportunities that I've had. 00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:14.559 They were all great experiences that have just been tremendously meaningful for me. 00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:17.119 That's great. 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:19.840 And I think that's a perfect spot to end this. 00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.880 So it has been an absolute pleasure talking with Dr. 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:30.719 Kevin Black at Penn State about the transition from clinical practitioner to department chair and then into his dean roles. 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:30.960 Dr. 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.920 Black, thank you so much, sir, for being on the podcast series. 00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:35.119 Doug, thank you so much. 00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:36.000 Really enjoy it. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:38.159 Thanks for all you do for the AOA. 00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:39.280 Thank you, sir. 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:44.000 And y'all join us again for future episodes in this podcast series.