Jakson Eastern Orthodox Vs Protestantism, Which Is the True Church: Jay Dyer Vs Dr. David Wood täydellinen litterointi

that, we're going to jump right into this debate. 74 00:03:45.189 --> 00:03:49.150 Jay Dyer is an Eastern Orthodox Christian apologist and author 75 00:03:49.189 --> 00:03:52.710 known for debating theology, philosophy, and culture. He has been 76 00:03:52.789 --> 00:03:57.659 on major platforms, including Tucker Carlson, InfoWars, and TimCast IRL. 77 00:03:58.449 --> 00:04:01.330 He is one of the biggest voices, maybe the biggest 78 00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:04.409 voice in Eastern Orthodox voices online. Please join me in 79 00:04:04.449 --> 00:04:21.699 welcoming Jay Dyer. And then as Jay gets set up, 80 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:24.060 I like this. This is efficient. I'm going to introduce 81 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.680 David and then, oh, there you can, you got it. 82 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:35.730 Pardon me. And I'm going to introduce next David Wood, 83 00:04:36.250 --> 00:04:38.589 who is going to be with us in just a moment. 84 00:04:41.089 --> 00:04:41.529 What the? 85 00:04:41.649 --> 00:04:41.930 Okay. 86 00:04:52.449 --> 00:04:55.009 Yeah, I think he should be back in 30 seconds, 87 00:04:55.129 --> 00:04:56.470 and then I'm going to move that cord just so 88 00:04:56.490 --> 00:05:07.310 it's not in your way as well. Now I will 89 00:05:07.329 --> 00:05:11.410 go over the format as we get ready. So for 90 00:05:11.529 --> 00:05:16.019 the format, we'll have 15 minute opening statements. That'll of 91 00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:19.540 course be starting with Jay. We'll have 10 minute first rebuttals. 92 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:23.100 Then we'll have 25 minutes of open dialogue, seven minutes 93 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:27.899 of second rebuttals and five minutes of conclusions followed by. 94 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:28.720 Q and A. 95 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:32.889 And now that we are ready to roll, I'm going 96 00:05:32.910 --> 00:05:36.149 to introduce David Dr. David Wood earned his PhD in 97 00:05:36.170 --> 00:05:40.689 philosophy at Fordham University and is a Christian apologist, and 98 00:05:40.730 --> 00:05:44.620 in fact, one of the biggest voices online among Christian 99 00:05:45.500 --> 00:05:48.279 Protestant apologists. Please join me in welcoming Dr. 100 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:48.819 David Wood. 101 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:01.250 With that, I have the timer set for you, and 102 00:06:01.269 --> 00:06:02.810 I'll start it on your first. 103 00:06:02.610 --> 00:06:09.629 Word, Jaye. All right, so. 104 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:16.269 This is going to be, I think, another simple demonstration 105 00:06:16.350 --> 00:06:20.750 for what my case, what my side has to demonstrate, 106 00:06:20.769 --> 00:06:22.379 what we have to prove. It's going to be easy 107 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.220 because you might think that I'm going to start with 108 00:06:25.240 --> 00:06:27.660 a bunch of patristic quotes or that I have to 109 00:06:28.259 --> 00:06:31.259 run to a bunch of scholars or authorities per se. 110 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.500 But we're going to go to the shared authority that 111 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:35.920 we both have, which is, first of all, Scripture. 112 00:06:36.930 --> 00:06:38.310 As David is a Protestant. 113 00:06:38.350 --> 00:06:41.629 However, we still don't know exactly what type of evangelical 114 00:06:41.709 --> 00:06:44.470 Protestant David is. And so this makes it very difficult 115 00:06:44.490 --> 00:06:48.069 to actually nail down what his position is on the 116 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:52.000 early church or what Protestant evangelicalism is for him when 117 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:54.939 we have thousands of Protestant sects today, thousands of different 118 00:06:55.399 --> 00:06:56.379 evangelical groups. 119 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:57.620 We're going to see. 120 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:00.879 I think, that not any of those have the ability 121 00:07:00.939 --> 00:07:04.189 to fulfill the four marks of the church that we're 122 00:07:04.209 --> 00:07:08.040 going to talk about today. not beginning with the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, 123 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:09.860 which is where we get the four marks of one 124 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:12.889 holy Catholic apostolic, but rather we're going to go to 125 00:07:12.939 --> 00:07:16.779 the Old Testament to see that the Old Testament itself 126 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:20.540 and the prophets predict a coming period when the Gentiles 127 00:07:20.579 --> 00:07:23.420 will turn to the God of Israel. That will be 128 00:07:23.500 --> 00:07:25.480 one of the signs that the kingdom has come, the 129 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.579 messianic era has come. And thus we're going to see 130 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:32.060 within that first thousand years of Christianity that the fulfillment 131 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:37.329 of those many prophecies throughout the Torah the Psalms, the 132 00:07:37.750 --> 00:07:41.129 minor prophets, major prophets, etc., all point to only one 133 00:07:41.170 --> 00:07:46.199 possibility being the one true church. As we said, the 134 00:07:46.259 --> 00:07:52.160 Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed from 381, the Council in 381, the Second 135 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:56.540 Ecumenical Council, states that there's one holy Catholic and apostolic church. 136 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.279 You've probably heard Roman Catholics say this is their four 137 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:01.720 marks that proves the true church. I'm going to show 138 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.310 you that it actually isn't their church, but All I 139 00:08:04.350 --> 00:08:06.610 have to prove is that the first thousand years of 140 00:08:06.629 --> 00:08:11.970 Christianity isn't David's unknown mysterious evangelical Protestant group of which 141 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:13.930 we have no idea what it is. It's still undefined. 142 00:08:13.949 --> 00:08:18.480 It's still a churchless apologetic. Joel 3 talks about in 143 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.699 the last days there will be a spirit that comes 144 00:08:21.759

--> 00:08:24.420 in a mighty rush, a wind that blows and comes 145 00:08:24.459 --> 00:08:28.129 upon all flesh. And this will be giving dreams and 146 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:33.100 prophecies to those that experience this. Some Protestants and evangelicals 147 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:34.639 extend that to the end of the world. However, we 148 00:08:34.700 --> 00:08:38.139 see that according to Acts 2, this is about Pentecost, 149 00:08:38.179 --> 00:08:42.879 the actual event of Pentecost. That means that Joel 3 150 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.269 is talking about the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, 151 00:08:45.690 --> 00:08:48.330 not just on the Jews to fulfill that promise there 152 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:51.509 in Acts 2, but also by Acts 10 and other chapters, 153 00:08:52.090 --> 00:08:56.230 Cornelius and the Gentiles as well. So the fulfillment of 154 00:08:56.269 --> 00:09:00.960 Joel 3 is the first advent. In Malachi 1, 11, 155 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:05.379 and 12, we read that in the Messianic era, incense 156 00:09:05.419 --> 00:09:08.259 will be offered to my name amongst the Gentiles. 157 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:10.320 Well, now, wait a minute. 158 00:09:10.460 --> 00:09:14.750 Levitical law says that's restricted to the Aaronic priesthood. 159 00:09:14.779 --> 00:09:16.809 How are Gentiles going to do that? That doesn't make 160 00:09:16.870 --> 00:09:17.230 any sense. 161 00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:20.830 Well, the Old Testament, major and minor prophets, David as well, 162 00:09:20.870 --> 00:09:24.090 were being given these predictions about what would be the 163 00:09:24.190 --> 00:09:26.110 signs that the kingdom had come. 164 00:09:26.230 --> 00:09:29.370 The Messianic kingdom was here. And again, incense. 165 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:33.350 which we still offer incense in the Orthodox Church, as 166 00:09:33.490 --> 00:09:37.509 a symbol, as a ritual element that shows that we 167 00:09:37.570 --> 00:09:43.149 are fulfilling, in fact, this prophecy. In Isaiah 65, 21, 168 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:46.470 and Isaiah 61, 5, we read that some of the 169 00:09:46.509 --> 00:09:49.519 Gentiles will be taken to be priests over God's people. 170 00:09:50.379 --> 00:09:54.019 How is that possible in the Aaronic, Mosaic, Levitical system? 171 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:55.580 It's not possible within that system. 172 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:57.899 That means, as Jeremiah says in Jeremiah 31 and 33 173 00:09:57.899 --> 00:10:01.960 in the Masoretic text, there's a new covenant that will 174 00:10:01.980 --> 00:10:05.340 be coming that will be made with all flesh where 175 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:07.860 the law will be written on the heart and it 176 00:10:07.899 --> 00:10:11.980 will include these Gentiles who will become priests in the 177 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:13.659 Messianic era, priests. 178 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:16.519 They will be shepherds over the people. 179 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.730 So notice, it's not just the generic priesthood of all 180 00:10:19.750 --> 00:10:22.169 the believers, which as Orthodox, we also affirm that. 181 00:10:22.769 --> 00:10:26.070 That it also shows a hierarchical priesthood that still exists. 182 00:10:26.850 --> 00:10:32.029 We read in Isaiah 19, 19 to 20, that an 183 00:10:32.210 --> 00:10:34.809 altar will be set up in Egypt to the God 184 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:40.009 of Israel. Altars after the Mosaic period were only allowed 185 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:42.149 in the Mosaic law in Israel. 186 00:10:43.190 --> 00:10:44.330 How is this possible? 187 00:10:46.470 --> 00:10:50.850 In Romans 15, Paul helps us understand the apostolic exegesis 188 00:10:50.870 --> 00:10:52.990 of these passages. He says to the church at Rome, 189 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.190 for this reason, I will confess you amongst the Gentiles 190 00:10:57.269 --> 00:11:00.970 and sing to your name. And again, he says, rejoice, 191 00:11:01.049 --> 00:11:04.409 O Gentiles, with his people. And again, praise the Lord, Gentiles, 192 00:11:04.470 --> 00:11:07.490 with his people. And in Isaiah, he says, there will 193 00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:10.629 be a shoot out of the root of Jesse, and 194 00:11:10.669 --> 00:11:12.309 he will reign over the Gentiles. 195 00:11:12.909 --> 00:11:14.169 And in him, the Gentiles will hope. 196 00:11:14.330 --> 00:11:18.370 Paul is saying that prediction is fulfilled. in the church 197 00:11:18.409 --> 00:11:21.149 of Rome in this period, in this century, in the 198 00:11:21.190 --> 00:11:25.460 Psalms and in Isaiah, etc. Thus, the kingdom is not 199 00:11:25.639 --> 00:11:30.299 a strictly eschatological reality. It has a historical instantiation at 200 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.799 the first advent. In Daniel 2, we have the famous 201 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:35.940 prediction of the kingdom of the Messiah. The God of 202 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:38.419 heaven will raise up a kingdom. It will never be destroyed. 203 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:42.779 Notice it can't die. We can't have a form of restorationism, 204 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:46.289 whether it's the Anabaptist version or whether it's the Mormon 205 00:11:46.330 --> 00:11:49.029 version of the restoration of the church. This kingdom cannot die. 206 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:51.389 The gates of hell will not prevail against it. This 207 00:11:51.429 --> 00:11:53.629 kingdom will not be left to some other group, people group. 208 00:11:53.850 --> 00:11:56.370 It will not be broken in pieces. In fact, it 209 00:11:56.409 --> 00:11:58.389 will crush all of these kingdoms and it will stand 210 00:11:58.429 --> 00:12:01.299 for forever. The stone that you saw cut out without 211 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.240 hands became a cut out of the mountain. It ground 212 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:08.779 the powder and the copper and et cetera, the clay 213 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.179 of the giant idol. So the idol kingdoms collapse forever. 214 00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:16.659 The last of that idol, those four

kingdoms, in its 215 00:12:16.950 --> 00:12:23.750 successive imperial structure is Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome. The Messiah, 216 00:12:24.250 --> 00:12:27.370 we all know, was born under Rome. Thus, the fulfillment 217 00:12:27.409 --> 00:12:31.029 of Daniel 2 is the church set up under the 218 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:34.919 Roman Empire in the days of Christ the Messiah. Jesus 219 00:12:34.940 --> 00:12:38.159 says to his apostles in Luke 10, 16, he who 220 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:42.629 hears you hears me. Thus, the apostles have a delegated, 221 00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:48.100 passed-on authority from Christ. In Paul's epistles, he says to Timothy, 222 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:51.120 in 1 and 2 Timothy, he says, I laid. 223 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:51.799 Hands on you, Timothy. 224 00:12:52.379 --> 00:12:55.830 Do not hastily lay hands on another man, because by 225 00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:57.750 the laying on of hands is the giving of the 226 00:12:57.789 --> 00:12:58.750 gift of the Holy Spirit. 227 00:12:59.230 --> 00:13:01.690 That is a historic, apostolic succession. 228 00:13:02.309 --> 00:13:06.889 In Acts 1, when Judas is removed, it says, let 229 00:13:07.029 --> 00:13:13.210 another take his episcopate. Episcopos, that's Episcopal church governance. Paul 230 00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:15.750 says to Timothy, I put you in authority in Ephesus. 231 00:13:15.850 --> 00:13:20.629 I did not put everybody DIY in Ephesus in authority. Thus, 232 00:13:21.210 --> 00:13:26.730 we see a historical succession from Paul to Timothy in 233 00:13:27.110 --> 00:13:30.129 Ephesus at the church of Ephesus. You can go to 234 00:13:30.169 --> 00:13:31.759 many of these countries to this day and there are 235 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:33.240 still Orthodox churches. 236 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:36.320 That have the exact same beliefs, the exact same structure 237 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:37.120 that we see here. 238 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:40.330 And that's because the structure isn't invented by Paul or 239 00:13:40.370 --> 00:13:43.610 by the fourth, fifth, sixth century Roman church or whatever. 240 00:13:44.149 --> 00:13:46.269 It's the apostolic succession. 241 00:13:45.870 --> 00:13:50.110 Modeled from the book of Numbers when Moses lays hands 242 00:13:50.549 --> 00:13:53.169 and the Spirit passes from Moses to the elders. Paul 243 00:13:53.230 --> 00:13:58.590 is consciously doing this action in fulfillment of the model 244 00:13:58.710 --> 00:14:01.049 of succession in the Old Testament. Now, the model of 245 00:14:01.070 --> 00:14:03.789 succession in the Old Testament was typically, except for the 246 00:14:03.809 --> 00:14:07.759 case of Numbers, Aaronic succession to the priesthood in a 247 00:14:07.820 --> 00:14:08.779 biological sense. 248 00:14:09.379 --> 00:14:12.179 But now the church has been expanded. It is beyond 249 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:13.440 the ethnic component. 250 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.100 We are told by Christ that, in Matthew 19, that 251 00:14:17.139 --> 00:14:20.840 the apostles will judge the tribes of Israel. In Luke 20, 252 00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.679 he says, eat and drink with me at my table, 253 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.679 and you will judge on 12 thrones the tribes of Israel. 254 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:30.350 Who's the tribes of Israel? Is this some sort of evangelical, 255 00:14:30.379 --> 00:14:33.240 premillennial Zionist thing? Well, Peter says in 1 Peter 2, 256 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.049 9 and 10, to the church, That's a Catholic epistle, 257 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:39.409 so we don't exactly know which specific group. 258 00:14:39.450 --> 00:14:42.370 He says, you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, 259 00:14:42.710 --> 00:14:44.559 a holy nation. That's Exodus 19. 260 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:48.399 That's Isaiah, the promises to Israel in the Old Testament, 261 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:51.840 now applied to the New Testament church, which is the kingdom, 262 00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:54.960 Paul says in Galatians 6. To the Galatians, you are 263 00:14:56.299 --> 00:15:00.649 the Israel of God, the church at Galatia. In the 264 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:04.850 patristic era, we move on to note that this succession 265 00:15:04.909 --> 00:15:09.039 doctrine became very apparent from the earliest days. They did 266 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:13.320 not understand this to be some generic democratic, let's just 267 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.799 take these dudes as elders and just DIY, hopefully you 268 00:15:16.830 --> 00:15:19.830 guys can make it work. No, in fact, we have, 269 00:15:19.870 --> 00:15:28.049 for example, in the earliest days, not only ancient apostolic anaphoras, 270 00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:31.029 such as the anaphora of the apostles in St. Hippolytus, 271 00:15:31.049 --> 00:15:33.970 which describes the bishop's place and role at the liturgy, 272 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:37.690 where we see This is dated to around 200-230 A.D. 273 00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:43.970 The Sursum Cordia, the Eucharistia, the Anamnesis, the Oblation, the Epiclesis, 274 00:15:44.070 --> 00:15:47.769 and the Oration. This is an early ancient liturgical text 275 00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:51.250 about how the liturgy was celebrated. There are similar types 276 00:15:51.330 --> 00:15:56.730 of early St. Hippolytus era discussions of how bishops are 277 00:15:56.830 --> 00:16:00.950 ordained in the churches. These are important because liturgy is 278 00:16:01.029 --> 00:16:04.129 more than just a single person's citation. 279 00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:06.409 Or this or that church father. We might cite St. 280 00:16:06.429 --> 00:16:09.850 Augustine about relics and about the tombs of the martyrs 281 00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:12.620 and the real presence, and that's great. But I want 282 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.480 to challenge your thinking about consensus. A lot of times 283 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:19.179 Protestants appeal to, oh, well, the consensus of the church fathers, this,

that. Well, 284 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:21.279 if you want a greater version of consensus, you want 285 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:25.710 to look to early synods, early liturgical texts, which Protestants 286 00:16:25.830 --> 00:16:27.470 never go to and never talk about because they have 287 00:16:27.509 --> 00:16:31.610 no conception of liturgy. Rather, the early liturgical texts show 288 00:16:31.649 --> 00:16:35.659 us what is the pattern throughout many churches today. especially 289 00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:41.919 in various jurisdictions, including the important jurisdiction of Rome. The 290 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.090 real presence doctrine is thus supported not only in these 291 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:48.570 liturgical texts, but as are prayers to the saints. And 292 00:16:48.610 --> 00:16:50.129 beyond that, I want to talk about the canon of 293 00:16:50.149 --> 00:16:54.210 Scripture because Protestants never talk about the apostolic canons, which 294 00:16:54.269 --> 00:16:56.429 are dated to the 4th century. This is the normative 295 00:16:56.470 --> 00:16:59.789 church law in the East, and those apostolic canons at 296 00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:02.129 the very end, the very last canon or one or 297 00:17:02.149 --> 00:17:06.420 two canons, lists the Deuterocanon clearly as part of Scripture, 298 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.220 the Apocrypha. Now, I am not arguing that that infallibly 299 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:14.829 with certitude gave us the canon. I'm saying that was 300 00:17:14.869 --> 00:17:19.589 the normative position in canon law, church law in the East. 301 00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:23.990 Notice canon law, church law. Protestants don't have canon law, 302 00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:27.230 church law, showing that they're not that church of the 303 00:17:27.289 --> 00:17:32.150 early church period. They include the Deuterocanonical text. That's what's 304 00:17:32.210 --> 00:17:35.960 normative for the East. At the same time in Rome, 305 00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:40.440 in the West, Pope Damasus, Pope St. Damasus, affirms the 306 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.380 canonical list of the scriptures that St. Augustine also agreed 307 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.140 with in the West to also include the Deuterocanon. So 308 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:50.119 almost universally, East and West, by the end of the 309 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.880 fourth century, we have a totally different Bible than the 310 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:58.099 Protestant Bible. This is important because many of the texts 311 00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:02.529 in those Deuterocanonical passages support a different doctrine, particularly the 312 00:18:02.900 --> 00:18:05.900 prayers for the dead, almsgiving and prayers for the dead, 313 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:12.519 good works as part of necessary doctrine, part of salvation. 314 00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:15.599 This is why Luther, of course, did not want those 315 00:18:15.660 --> 00:18:19.119 books included. And of course, he explicitly said,

these books 316 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:21.460 don't teach the word of God, therefore they are not 317 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.420 to be contained. His answer was, well, I go to Jerome. 318 00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:29.130 Well, St. Jerome, who had the. 319 00:18:29.309 --> 00:18:32.569 Minor opinion, by the way, notice East and West canonically 320 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:36.009 have universally almost, the Deuterocanonical text included. 321 00:18:36.609 --> 00:18:36.789 St. 322 00:18:36.809 --> 00:18:39.150 Jerome said his private opinion was that he did not 323 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:39.970 think they were scripture. 324 00:18:40.450 --> 00:18:45.539 However, due to the authority of his reigning metropolitan, Pope Damasus, 325 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:49.619 he included the Deuterocanonical text in his Vulgate. Thus, they 326 00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:52.980 became normative east and west in the centuries that succeeded that. 327 00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:57.539 Why are we supposed to choose Jerome if you're a Protestant? 328 00:18:57.779 --> 00:19:01.049 On what normative basis ought we just choose Jerome? Well, 329 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:04.950 because Jerome thought the Jews had the right canon. Well, 330 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:07.420 the rest of the church, the consensus said, we don't 331 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:09.799 think so. In fact, the Jews don't determine the canon 332 00:19:09.819 --> 00:19:12.680 for the church. The church and the apostles determine the 333 00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:15.660 canon for the church. And that canon, according to most 334 00:19:15.700 --> 00:19:19.880 of the cited texts of the apostles from the Septuagint, 335 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:24.380 includes the Deuterocanon. The Septuagint includes it. The New Testament 336 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.250 makes many, many, many references to the Deuterocanonical text, both 337 00:19:27.289 --> 00:19:31.349 in allusions and in citations and references. And that's because 338 00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:34.630 some of those passages, for example, in Wisdom, predict Christ himself, 339 00:19:34.809 --> 00:19:38.349 the Book of Wisdom. Now, elsewhere, if we look at 340 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:42.799 the patristic era, we find not just the notion of 341 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.980 the Eucharist and this kind of stuff, but also practices 342 00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:49.240 that Protestants would immediately have a severe. 343 00:19:50.759 --> 00:19:51.940 hesitation and problem with. 344 00:19:51.980 --> 00:19:55.480 We saw in the previous debate the widespread veneration of 345 00:19:55.539 --> 00:19:59.640 the cross. We saw the widespread admission of many scholars 346 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:04.609 of Protestant and secular origin admitting to royal and holy portraiture. 347 00:20:05.289 --> 00:20:09.009 We saw the veneration and adoration even at times of 348 00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:12.269 the Eucharist, and various patristic citations. 349 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:14.190 I didn't get to all of that in my original talk. 350 00:20:14.210 --> 00:20:18.109 But the meal, the heavenly meal that we're celebrating here, 351 00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:23.970 according to the Didache, very, very early, 90 or so, is. 352 00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:26.990 Said to be a Eucharistia, a Thanksgiving offering. 353 00:20:27.210 --> 00:20:27.730 One minute warning. 354 00:20:28.950 --> 00:20:33.410 If these passages and these citations, which are very well known, 355 00:20:33.509 --> 00:20:37.170 Justin Martyr talks about giving the Eucharist, taking it from 356 00:20:37.230 --> 00:20:39.009 the service, and giving it to those who are sick 357 00:20:39.069 --> 00:20:42.490 and dying, which is last rite, you could say. If 358 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:48.940 the idea of baptismal regeneration cited in St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies, 359 00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:52.500 180 AD, very early and very necessary. If the idea 360 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:56.180 of a church existing without a fixed 66 books, sola scriptura, 361 00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:01.740 final authority canon of scripture, the church is functioning, growing, 362 00:21:01.829 --> 00:21:05.059 flourishing for centuries on this basis. The church has the 363 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:07.240 real presence. The church has prayers for the dead. The 364 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.799 church has early venerable images, the veneration of the cross. 365 00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:15.619 The church has the Eucharistic meal, the celebration seen to 366 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:20.529 be heaven on earth, described in the anaphora of the 367 00:21:20.569 --> 00:21:23.230 church at Rome. The bishop begins, the Lord be with you. 368 00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:26.029 We lift these things up to the Lord. The bishop 369 00:21:26.049 --> 00:21:29.250 gives thanksgiving. And then the words of institution, the prayer 370 00:21:29.309 --> 00:21:31.289 of the Holy Spirit down, this is the second century, 371 00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:35.759 late second century, onto the Eucharistic elements. So within a 372 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:38.839 couple centuries, it's the same doctrine of the Old Testament 373 00:21:38.859 --> 00:21:40.380 to the New Testament to the early church. 374 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:44.849 That is not Protestant. Only the Orthodox Church is one, holy, Catholic, 375 00:21:44.869 --> 00:21:45.789 and apostolic. 376 00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:51.130 And only that church fulfills the Niceno-Constantinopolitan definition of what 377 00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:51.829 the church is. 378 00:21:52.859 --> 00:22:13.130 Thank you very much for that opening, Jay Dyer. And 379 00:22:13.150 --> 00:22:15.170 I've got the timer set for you, David, and I'll 380 00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:32.700 start on your first word and then the projector. In 381 00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:34.269 the meantime, I want to give another thank you to 382 00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:40.470 our sponsors, Apologetics Arc and Roar and Uncensored America and... 383 00:22:40.869 -->

00:22:43.430 Yonaguni International Cuisine, link below. 384 00:22:44.990 --> 00:22:45.670 Ready for you, David. 385 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:49.079 Check, check, check. 386 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:52.000 Check. 387 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:58.039 All right, when it comes to the one true church, 388 00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:03.250 we need to be realistic here. Either the Catholics are 389 00:23:03.289 --> 00:23:06.490 right or the Protestants are right. There's no real third 390 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:12.619 option here. But Jay and I agree that the Roman 391 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:16.400 Catholics don't have it right. That leaves Protestants. I know, 392 00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:19.279 rest my airtight case. But no, I'll share a few 393 00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:25.599 more thoughts. I've noticed this year especially that communication can 394 00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:28.970 be kind of a problem because some people think completely 395 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:31.890 differently from other people. You can watch some videos on 396 00:23:31.910 --> 00:23:33.750 TikTok to find that out. And I don't mean we 397 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:36.769 disagree just on facts or information. I mean, some people's 398 00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:41.839 thinking is completely different from that of other people. And 399 00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:44.299 that can make it very difficult to understand each other. 400 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:50.039 For purposes of this debate, some people think quite dogmatically, 401 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:52.759 whatever the issue is, here's the correct position. If you disagree, 402 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:54.220 you're wrong and you're the enemy and we need to 403 00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:58.380 fight over this. That's just not me. My personal way 404 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.319 of thinking, if I had to name it, would be 405 00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:05.859 called something like Christian skepticism. I'm not advocating anyone else 406 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.920 to think like me. Please don't. It's just how I 407 00:24:08.980 --> 00:24:12.109 think and there's a reason I think this way. I 408 00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:15.529 used to think that cats ruled the world. For all 409 00:24:15.549 --> 00:24:18.390 of 10th grade, I was convinced that I controlled the weather. 410 00:24:19.329 --> 00:24:23.670 After I graduated from high school, I concluded that I 411 00:24:23.750 --> 00:24:26.089 was part of an experiment and that everyone in the 412 00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:29.309 world was reading my mind, but that I couldn't read theirs. 413 00:24:31.089 --> 00:24:35.200 And I, a little later, ended up in jail for 414 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:38.059 trying to murder my father with a hammer. And I 415 00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:42.450 just kept getting worse. While I was in jail, I 416 00:24:42.490 --> 00:24:45.210 started studying the Bible just to refute a Christian who 417 00:24:45.250 --> 00:24:49.970 was annoying me. I lost around 80 pounds from refusing 418 00:24:50.009

--> 00:24:52.210 to eat. I had a rash all over me. The 419 00:24:52.269 --> 00:24:55.500 doctor was threatening to tube feed me. The psychiatrist told 420 00:24:55.539 --> 00:24:57.400 me that, well, she told my lawyer that they were 421 00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:59.460 going to have to send me to my third mental hospital. 422 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:02.920 And when I wasn't studying to refute this Christian, all 423 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.819 I thought about was torturing people and peeling their skin off. 424 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.940 But instead of refuting the Christian, I eventually bowed down 425 00:25:12.259 --> 00:25:14.960 on my bed and I asked Jesus to save me. 426 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.829 And when I sat up from that prayer, the entire 427 00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:22.890 world looked different and I didn't want to hurt anyone anymore. 428 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:29.250 In that cell, I realized two very important facts. One, 429 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:35.509 Jesus Christ is Lord. And two, I am a complete, utter, 430 00:25:35.809 --> 00:25:41.710 total moron. I was 20 years old then. I'm 50 now. 431 00:25:42.130 --> 00:25:44.809 In 30 years, I have never doubted Jesus or the 432 00:25:44.849 --> 00:25:47.910 power of the gospel. I doubt all kinds of other things. 433 00:25:48.029 --> 00:25:51.549 I'm a chronic doubter of all kinds of issues because 434 00:25:51.589 --> 00:25:54.190 I learned the hard way not to trust a lot 435 00:25:54.210 --> 00:25:57.269 of the thoughts that go through this head. So, due 436 00:25:57.470 --> 00:26:00.009 in large part to my track record of being really, 437 00:26:00.150 --> 00:26:04.039 really wrong and of doing massive amounts of damage to 438 00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:07.809 myself and to others, When I defend something now, I 439 00:26:07.869 --> 00:26:09.970 try to defend things that are essential and that are 440 00:26:10.109 --> 00:26:15.119 obviously correct, like Jesus' death, resurrection, and deity. When I 441 00:26:15.390 --> 00:26:18.500 attack something, I try to attack things that are obviously wrong, 442 00:26:18.579 --> 00:26:22.460 like Islam. I leave the finer points and the more 443 00:26:22.519 --> 00:26:26.700 difficult concepts to people with superior mental processing ability than 444 00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:33.160 I have, because I'm a moron. Earlier this year, I 445 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.079 found out from the orthobros that I'm not a Christian, 446 00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:39.220 except in the very loose sense of distinguishing me from 447 00:26:39.259 --> 00:26:41.599 an atheist or a Muslim, but definitely not a Christian 448 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:43.680 according to the Bible because I didn't end up in 449 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:47.269 the one true church. So what I need to do, 450 00:26:47.410 --> 00:26:50.049 I've been told, is join the Eastern Orthodox Church, and 451 00:26:50.130 --> 00:26:52.609 then I don't need to be skeptical of my thinking 452 00:26:52.650 --> 00:26:55.210 anymore because I can have the authority of the church 453 00:26:55.269 --> 00:26:57.710 to tell me what to think. So why don't I 454 00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:01.359 just do that? Well, there are reasons. Let's take a 455 00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:04.880 look at the original church council, the Jerusalem council in 456 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:08.599 Acts 15. But some men came down from Judea, these 457 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.220 guys are coming from the Jerusalem church, and were teaching 458 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:14.839 the brothers, unless you are circumcised according to the custom 459 00:27:14.859 --> 00:27:17.920 of Moses, you cannot be saved. They were teaching that 460 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.970 circumcision is necessary for salvation. And after Paul and Barnabas 461 00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:24.930 had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and 462 00:27:24.950 --> 00:27:26.670 Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go 463 00:27:26.730 --> 00:27:29.869 up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question. 464 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.680 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the 465 00:27:33.740 --> 00:27:36.680 church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared 466 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:40.470 all that God had done with them. But some believers 467 00:27:40.829 --> 00:27:42.769 who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up 468 00:27:42.829 --> 00:27:45.589 and said, it is necessary to circumcise them and to 469 00:27:45.809 --> 00:27:49.279 order them to keep the law of Moses. So it's 470 00:27:49.299 --> 00:27:53.839 circumcision and keeping the law of Moses. The apostles and 471 00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.759 the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And 472 00:27:56.940 --> 00:27:59.559 after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and 473 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:01.859 said to them, Brothers, you know that in the early 474 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:03.819 days God made a choice among you, that by my 475 00:28:03.859 --> 00:28:06.460 mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel 476 00:28:06.549 --> 00:28:10.509 and believe. And God, who knows the heart, bore witness 477 00:28:10.529 --> 00:28:13.950 to them. God is the one who bore witness by 478 00:28:14.049 --> 00:28:16.970 giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us. 479 00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:19.609 And he made no distinction between us and them, having 480 00:28:19.690 --> 00:28:23.319 cleansed their hearts by faith. Now, therefore, why are you 481 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.619 putting God to the test by placing a yoke on 482 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:29.000 the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor 483 00:28:29.059 --> 00:28:31.680 we have been able to bear? But we believe that 484 00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:34.490 we will be saved through the grace of the Lord 485 00:28:34.549 --> 00:28:39.529 Jesus Christ just as they will. So some Pharisees who 486 00:28:39.549 -->

00:28:42.529 became Christians claimed that in order to be saved, Gentile 487 00:28:42.569 --> 00:28:45.329 converts had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. 488 00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:49.410 Peter replies by pointing to what God had already revealed 489 00:28:49.700 --> 00:28:52.519 by giving the Holy Spirit to the Gentile believers, just 490 00:28:52.579 --> 00:28:55.180 as he had to the Jewish believers, even though the 491 00:28:55.220 --> 00:28:58.259 Gentile believers weren't circumcised and didn't keep the law of Moses. 492 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.069 And Peter concludes by saying, but we believe that we 493 00:29:02.089 --> 00:29:05.309 will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, 494 00:29:05.369 --> 00:29:09.150 just as they will. Then the apostle James quotes Amos 495 00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:11.369 to show that the prophets had already said that this 496 00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:15.150 would happen. So God revealed this through his acts and 497 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:18.930 through his word. and the Jerusalem church sent a letter 498 00:29:19.009 --> 00:29:23.359 to correct the false teachings of the Judaizers. Notice what 499 00:29:23.579 --> 00:29:27.000 the letter says. Since we have heard that some persons 500 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:29.759 have gone out from us, the false teachers went out 501 00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:33.279 from the Jerusalem church, and troubled you with words, unsettling 502 00:29:33.299 --> 00:29:36.890 your minds, although we gave them no instructions, they went 503 00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:39.369 out from the apostles, but the apostles didn't tell them 504 00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:42.319 to say what they said. It has seemed good to us, 505 00:29:42.380 --> 00:29:45.380 having come to one accord, to choose men and send 506 00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:48.150 them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men 507 00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:49.730 who have risked their lives for the name of the 508 00:29:49.769 --> 00:29:50.430 Lord Jesus Christ. 509 00:29:50.849 --> 00:29:51.369 What happened here? 510 00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:55.609 Some believers went out from the Jerusalem church and added 511 00:29:55.710 --> 00:30:00.890 something to the Peter and James refuted the addition by 512 00:30:01.029 --> 00:30:04.369 pointing to what God said and did. God gave the 513 00:30:04.410 --> 00:30:08.289 Gentiles the Holy Spirit even though they weren't circumcised, so 514 00:30:08.670 --> 00:30:16.000 circumcision isn't necessary for salvation. In Galatians 1, Paul anathematizes 515 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:19.579 the Judaizers for adding circumcision and keeping the law of 516 00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:21.220 Moses to the gospel. 517 00:30:22.099 --> 00:30:22.859 Why is this important? 518 00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:26.130 Well, here are some of the many anathemas from the 519 00:30:26.150 --> 00:30:29.130 Second Council of Nicaea that we looked at. We accept 520 00:30:29.170 --> 00:30:31.970 the sacred images. We subject those who do not believe 521 00:30:32.049 --> 00:30:35.210 accordingly to anathema. To those who do not kiss the 522 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:39.200 holy and venerable images, anathema. To those who knowingly communicate 523 00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.960 with those who insult and dishonor the sacred images, anathema. 524 00:30:41.980 --> 00:30:44.460 To all the heretics, anathema. To the assembly that insulted 525 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:49.339 the sacred images, anathema. If you don't venerate icons, you're 526 00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:51.359 cut off from the church and cut off from God. 527 00:30:51.789 --> 00:30:56.410 In other words, Unless you venerate icons, you cannot be saved. 528 00:30:58.349 --> 00:31:00.890 What did they do at Nicaea II? They added icon 529 00:31:00.910 --> 00:31:05.599 veneration to the gospel. In the first century, it's, but 530 00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:08.220 some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, 531 00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:10.960 unless you are circumcised, according to the custom of Moses, 532 00:31:11.099 --> 00:31:15.099 you cannot be saved. In the eighth century, it's, but 533 00:31:15.140 --> 00:31:17.839 some men came from Empress Irene and were teaching the brothers, 534 00:31:17.900 --> 00:31:20.559 unless you venerate icons, you cannot be saved. 535 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:22.420 Quick question. 536 00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.960 Did God give the Holy Spirit to the Gentile believers 537 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.559 only after they started venerating icons? No, all the Gentiles 538 00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:37.470 did was listen. Peter finishes preaching his message. He concludes with, 539 00:31:37.670 --> 00:31:40.210 to him, all the prophets bear witness that everyone who 540 00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:44.190 believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. 541 00:31:45.789 --> 00:31:46.369 And what happens? 542 00:31:46.930 --> 00:31:49.299 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit 543 00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:52.519 fell on all who heard the word. And the believers 544 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.799 from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were 545 00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.480 amazed because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured 546 00:31:57.539 --> 00:32:01.160 out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them 547 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.920 speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, can 548 00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:08.259 anyone withhold water for baptizing these people who have received 549 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.559 the Holy Spirit just as we have? And he commanded 550 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:14.480 them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 551 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:19.849 Our Orthobro friends read Acts 15 and think that their 552 00:32:19.890 --> 00:32:24.630 church councils are like the Jerusalem Council. But if Acts 553 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:27.789 15 is the model, the parallel to Empress Irene and 554 00:32:27.849 -->

00:32:31.819 Patriarch Terasios wouldn't be Peter and James, the parallel would 555 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:36.160 be the Judaizers. The main difference is that in Acts 15, 556 00:32:36.140 --> 00:32:39.400 there was a system for correcting a corruption of the gospel. 557 00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.339 In the 8th century, when your church council is controlled 558 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.480 by an empress, you can make your corruption of the 559 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:50.460 gospel immune to correction by anathematizing anyone who so much 560 00:32:50.500 --> 00:32:52.420 as quotes the Bible to you. And they did that. 561 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:54.480 But it gets worse. 562 00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:59.259 In the letter the Jerusalem church sends in Acts 15, 563 00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:02.200 they give a few rules for the Gentile believers to follow. 564 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:05.220 One of the rules was to abstain from food sacrificed 565 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:09.369 to idols. But Paul shows in 1 Corinthians 8 and 566 00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:12.089 10 that this wasn't because sacrificing food to an idol 567 00:33:12.130 --> 00:33:15.180 somehow pollutes the food. It was because some Christians from 568 00:33:15.220 --> 00:33:18.059 Jewish backgrounds and pagan backgrounds, still felt like sacrificing the 569 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.420 food to an idol did something to the food and 570 00:33:20.460 --> 00:33:24.359 associated it with the idol. Paul disagrees with them. An 571 00:33:24.460 --> 00:33:28.500 idol is nothing. But he says that if they believe, wrongly, 572 00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:31.700 that food sacrificed to an idol is somehow tainted with idolatry, 573 00:33:32.029 --> 00:33:34.890 they need to avoid the food so that they don't 574 00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:39.130 violate their consciences. And he even says that other Christians 575 00:33:39.170 --> 00:33:42.650 shouldn't eat food sacrificed to idols around them. He says, 576 00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:44.809 but take care that this right of yours does not 577 00:33:44.869 --> 00:33:46.809 somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if 578 00:33:46.869 --> 00:33:49.569 anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, 579 00:33:49.630 --> 00:33:52.089 will he not be encouraged if his conscience is weak 580 00:33:52.410 --> 00:33:55.589 to eat food offered to idols? He goes on to 581 00:33:55.630 --> 00:33:57.150 say that if someone sits food in front of you 582 00:33:57.170 --> 00:33:58.730 and doesn't tell you where it comes from, don't ask. 583 00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:02.190 But if someone says to you, this has been offered 584 00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:04.299 in sacrifice, then do not eat it for the sake 585 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.140 of the one who informed you and for the sake 586 00:34:06.220 --> 00:34:08.900 of conscience. I do not mean your conscience, but his. 587 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:12.039 In other words, If someone mentions to you that the 588 00:34:12.079 -->

00:34:14.949 food was offered in sacrifice to an idol, don't eat 589 00:34:14.969 --> 00:34:18.730 it because the person obviously mentioned it because it's an 590 00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:22.210 issue for him. Why am I bringing this up? Well, 591 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:25.429 the rule about not eating food sacrificed to idols in 592 00:34:25.489 --> 00:34:28.000 Acts 15 was meant to protect people who thought of 593 00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.659 eating food sacrificed to idols as venerating the idols. Paul 594 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.400 says these people are wrong, but the Jerusalem church didn't 595 00:34:34.420 --> 00:34:39.409 want them to violate their consciences. Yesterday, I laid out 596 00:34:39.469 --> 00:34:42.809 how strongly the early iconoclasts felt about venerating images. They 597 00:34:42.829 --> 00:34:45.869 viewed it as idolatry. They felt so strongly about it 598 00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:47.719 that many of them were willing to take an anathema 599 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.639 rather than venerate an icon. If your church follows the 600 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:55.619 example of the Jerusalem church, should you anathematize people for 601 00:34:55.659 --> 00:34:59.019 refusing to do something they view as idolatrous, even if 602 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:02.800 you're completely convinced that they're wrong? The Jerusalem church and 603 00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:04.469 the Apostle Paul say, no, don't make them do it. 604 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.210 Don't even do it around them. Nicaea too says, kick 605 00:35:07.230 --> 00:35:11.050 them out of the church, they're cut off from God. See, 606 00:35:11.070 --> 00:35:13.670 another problem for the Orthodox Church based on the Jerusalem Council. 607 00:35:13.710 --> 00:35:16.769 Notice what's missing from the Jerusalem Council. There's no emperor 608 00:35:17.010 --> 00:35:19.750 or empress calling the shots behind the scenes and controlling 609 00:35:19.769 --> 00:35:22.829 the outcome of the council. The Roman emperor during the 610 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:25.909 Jerusalem Council was Claudius. Just imagine if this had gone differently. 611 00:35:25.929 --> 00:35:28.809 Just imagine the Judaizers claim, if you want to be saved, 612 00:35:28.829 --> 00:35:30.829 you have to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses. 613 00:35:31.889 --> 00:35:35.320 Paul and Barnabas and Peter and James object. But Emperor 614 00:35:35.340 --> 00:35:38.400 Claudius steps in and replaces the apostles with the Judaizers 615 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.239 and the Judaizers run the council and anathematize the apostles. 616 00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:46.570 Would you trust that council? If not, why do you 617 00:35:46.610 --> 00:35:50.170 trust Nicaea too? Because that's what happened. The puppet master 618 00:35:50.210 --> 00:35:51.730 pulling the strings at the council was a woman who 619 00:35:51.750 --> 00:35:53.590 was only in power because her husband died and her 620 00:35:53.610 --> 00:35:56.309 son was

too young to take over as emperor. Side note, 621 00:35:56.809 --> 00:36:01.030 she eventually gouged her son's eyes out and he died. 622 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:05.920 Does that sound like something a trustworthy and reliable person 623 00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:06.960 running your council would do? 624 00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:10.960 It sounds like something I would do. 625 00:36:13.389 --> 00:36:16.349 Empress Irene decided what she wanted and she moved people 626 00:36:16.369 --> 00:36:18.150 into place to get what she wanted. If you look 627 00:36:18.170 --> 00:36:21.449 at that council and say it's infallible, there are permanent 628 00:36:21.489 --> 00:36:25.579 consequences because now it's acceptable for politicians to control the church. 629 00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:26.199 And where does this go? 630 00:36:27.570 --> 00:36:29.900 If you don't know, look at Russia, where the patriarch 631 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.679 of the Russian Orthodox Church is a former KGB spy 632 00:36:32.739 --> 00:36:36.099 who became a multi-billionaire by bending the church to Putin's will. 633 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:39.559 If you affirm Nicaea II, I don't see how you 634 00:36:39.579 --> 00:36:43.260 can object to the Russian Orthodox Church serving Putin's political aims. 635 00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:45.380 Political leaders run the church and call the shots and 636 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.460 use the church to get what they want. How in 637 00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:49.739 the name of common sense can I look at this 638 00:36:49.780 --> 00:36:51.579 and say, this is obviously the one true church and 639 00:36:51.619 --> 00:36:54.119 I have to mindlessly accept all the things that seem 640 00:36:54.139 --> 00:36:57.360 to completely contradict what's in the Bible? I look at 641 00:36:57.380 --> 00:36:59.539 this and think, man, they need to fix some of 642 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:05.300 these problems. They need to reform. But you've made your 643 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:08.179 church impervious to correction by anathematizing anyone who tries to 644 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:13.039 correct you. So reform has to come from outside your church. 645 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:16.980 This means that without some reformist movement outside of your church, 646 00:37:17.099 --> 00:37:20.820 your church is incomplete. You can't be the true church 647 00:37:20.889 --> 00:37:22.989 on your own because your church has fallen into error 648 00:37:23.070 --> 00:37:26.110 and can't be corrected from within. You're nothing like the 649 00:37:26.190 --> 00:37:28.070 Acts 15 church if you don't have a way to 650 00:37:28.110 --> 00:37:30.570 correct the problems that have become embedded in your church. 651 00:37:31.050 --> 00:37:31.610 One minute warning. 652 00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:36.079 You're an incomplete church without the ability to reform. So, 653 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:44.409 my OrthoBro friends, you need Protestants. We complete you. You 654 00:37:44.530 --> 00:37:50.070 need us like the flower needs the rain. You need Protestants. 655 00:37:50.750 --> 00:37:53.969 So stop hating. Start appreciating. We're here to help. 656 00:37:55.699 --> 00:38:06.719 Thank you very much for that opening. We will jump 657 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.699 into the rebuttals. And if you guys would like, we 658 00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.340 can keep the podium up. Otherwise, if you want to 659 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:16.059 do rebuttals from your seat, that works too. 660 00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:16.820 Cool. Okay. 661 00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.360 We'll do it like that then. We have 10 minutes 662 00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:22.909 of rebuttals starting with Jay. The floor is all yours, Jay. 663 00:38:22.929 --> 00:38:25.269 I'll start the clock on your first word. 664 00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:27.239 I want to comment on one of the things he 665 00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:28.679 said at the end of the last debate that he 666 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.480 kind of referenced again. I don't think David is able 667 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:34.079 to understand the basics of what he's reading, even in 668 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.719 the Acts and Decrees of the Second Council of Nicaea. 669 00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:42.159 He thought that you don't communicate with those that disagree 670 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:43.920 as if that means you don't talk to them. 671 00:38:43.940 --> 00:38:45.420 It means communion. 672 00:38:45.699 --> 00:38:48.119 So I don't think David understands the basics of what 673 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:51.380 he's reading. It's not saying you can't verbally communicate with people. 674 00:38:51.460 --> 00:38:54.030 It's saying that you don't commune with those who are schismatics. 675 00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:54.820 This is a great point. 676 00:38:55.429 --> 00:38:58.380 To illustrate the fundamental flaw here in terms of the 677 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.280 notion of the church, the one true church. 678 00:39:00.340 --> 00:39:00.840 Is there one? 679 00:39:01.460 --> 00:39:04.719 It's funny because he mentioned a lot of problems that 680 00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:06.599 he has with this idea of the legalism of the 681 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.070 Pharisees trying to attack on extra things and make certain 682 00:39:10.110 --> 00:39:13.469 things certain and normative and so forth. But if you notice, 683 00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:18.530 it's actually Paul in 1 Corinthians that excommunicates the people 684 00:39:18.570 --> 00:39:21.889 who are engaging in certain illicit immoral acts. Paul has 685 00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:25.000 no problem telling the church at Corinth that he established 686 00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:28.829 that they have the duty, having the apostolic authority that 687 00:39:28.849 --> 00:39:32.809 he passed on, to excommunicate those that are not living correctly. 688 00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:34.510 Guess what? 689 00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.940 Not too long after that, in the early apostolic period, 690 00:39:38.139 --> 00:39:42.539

early church councils and synods prior to Nicaea, there's many 691 00:39:42.579 --> 00:39:44.480 of them by the way, there is the council of 692 00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:47.179 Jerusalem that he mentioned in the book of Acts, that 693 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.159 laid down a pattern and a standard for dealing with 694 00:39:50.219 --> 00:39:52.030 the problems that he brought up at the end of 695 00:39:52.110 --> 00:39:54.570 his discussion that he says the Orthodox Church doesn't have 696 00:39:54.590 --> 00:39:57.130 an ability to deal with, even though we have millennia 697 00:39:57.289 --> 00:40:01.449 of synods and local synods and pan-Orthodox synods that actually 698 00:40:01.489 --> 00:40:04.150 deal with and reform the very problems that he talks about. 699 00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:07.869 He has an unnamed churchless apologetic that he's not told 700 00:40:07.969 --> 00:40:10.070 us what his group is to actually deal with the problems. 701 00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:15.349 So it's David and his Bible, and David says, I 702 00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:16.289 am stupid. 703 00:40:16.690 --> 00:40:19.019 I do not know how to read the Bible, and 704 00:40:19.059 --> 00:40:22.340 that's what I learned when I was in prison. So 705 00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:25.300 we need the dumb Protestants who admit that they don't 706 00:40:25.340 --> 00:40:28.280 know the text to come together and fuss and critique 707 00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:32.659 Orthodox to fix the problems externally? No, Christ set up 708 00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:36.800 an internal mechanism for the governance of the church, and 709 00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:38.989 he gave it a normative authority. This is a key 710 00:40:39.010 --> 00:40:41.070 point I want to make here that I think proves 711 00:40:41.150 --> 00:40:45.079 that Our Messiah was wise enough to understand that there 712 00:40:45.099 --> 00:40:47.800 would be disputes and dissensions in the church, and he 713 00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:51.360 didn't leave it up to individual Protestants with their Bibles 714 00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:53.579 to try to solve all the problems and figure it out. 715 00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:00.030 There's a synodal process, a conciliar process that everyone, even 716 00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:02.969 Roman Catholics admit, is the normative means in the early 717 00:41:02.989 --> 00:41:05.090 church for the first thousand years. Some of these early 718 00:41:05.130 --> 00:41:09.510 synods dealt with confirming things like honoring the saints and 719 00:41:09.530 --> 00:41:12.010 the martyrs prior to Nicaea. Again, something I didn't even 720 00:41:12.050 --> 00:41:15.079 mention that is a very serious problem for Protestants because 721 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.500 it means that from the earliest days, the church already 722 00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:21.199 began to apostatize. This kingdom that the Messiah set up 723 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:24.730 was fraught with problems such that apparently, according to David, 724 00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:27.150 there's some point where the Pharisees got in and kind 725 00:41:27.170 --> 00:41:29.829 of took it over. I want to know at what 726 00:41:29.909 --> 00:41:32.070 point did the church that Jesus set up in the 727 00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:35.429 apostolic period change gets so full of these accretions that 728 00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:38.349 it ceased to be a true church or the church. 729 00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:42.409 David's ecumenist sensibilities and appeal to the audience don't want 730 00:41:42.449 --> 00:41:45.710 to give a hard line on, is justification by faith 731 00:41:45.769 --> 00:41:48.570 alone the gospel? Because that means all of these guys 732 00:41:48.590 --> 00:41:51.159 in the first thousand years don't make the cut. They 733 00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:53.679 didn't have the basics of the gospel because they're teaching 734 00:41:53.719 --> 00:41:57.280 works-based salvation and all this kind of works and asceticism 735 00:41:57.320 --> 00:41:57.860 and so forth. 736 00:41:58.989 --> 00:42:00.110 But when Paul says that. 737 00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:03.650 They need to be excommunicated, the church, after the apostles, 738 00:42:03.750 --> 00:42:08.690 continues that normative authority process to excommunicate people. 739 00:42:08.809 --> 00:42:11.579 They believe they have that authority. Now, maybe you don't 740 00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:13.059 like that. You disagree with it. 741 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:15.519 It's just simply a fact that they had that authority 742 00:42:15.699 --> 00:42:20.380 in their minds. So Nicaea, for example, after these pre-Nicene synods, 743 00:42:21.300 --> 00:42:25.239 excommunicates the Arians. The bishops believe they had the authority 744 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:29.179 to do that. in his loose, broad painting of all 745 00:42:29.219 --> 00:42:33.159 of this, well, that's the Pharisees, because they've added now 746 00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:37.449 affirmation of the theological position of the Nicene Creed, the 747 00:42:37.489 --> 00:42:40.230 first creed, to affirm the deity of Christ to be saved. 748 00:42:40.909 --> 00:42:43.610 If you don't believe that, you've endangered the entire gospel. 749 00:42:46.210 --> 00:42:49.230 One holy Catholic apostolic church is the mark of the 750 00:42:49.329 --> 00:42:52.579 early church's identifier of what the true and false church is. 751 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.420 Irenaeus says in 180, If you read books three and 752 00:42:55.460 --> 00:42:58.969 four of Against Heresies in his day, apostolic succession was 753 00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:00.050 one of the key tests. 754 00:43:00.469 --> 00:43:03.590 He uses Rome as an example. Rome has a succession 755 00:43:03.610 --> 00:43:04.389 of bishops and Peter. 756 00:43:05.050 --> 00:43:08.730 In the Orthodox Church, the Antiochian succession comes from Peter. 757 00:43:09.590 --> 00:43:11.840 That's one of the identifiers of the true marks of 758 00:43:11.860 --> 00:43:14.360 the church, of

the four. Apostolic. 759 00:43:14.619 --> 00:43:19.460 Not just meaning generically apostolic teaching, but the entire apostolic 760 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:23.170 deposit Paul enjoins Timothy to pass on everything that he 761 00:43:23.250 --> 00:43:25.409 heard from Paul in the presence of many witnesses, not 762 00:43:25.449 --> 00:43:27.809 just the written text, the oral teaching of the apostles 763 00:43:27.869 --> 00:43:35.079 as well. So dogmatism is really a dog whistle to just. 764 00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:37.300 Kind of make people seem bad and mean. 765 00:43:38.340 --> 00:43:41.440 But you'll notice the churchless apologetics people, and many of 766 00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.480 them are here, actually exclude the people who are exclusivists. 767 00:43:45.940 --> 00:43:49.550 They will say, if you're an exclusivist, now you've tacked 768 00:43:49.630 --> 00:43:53.389 on extra things according to the gospel that violates Galatians 1, 769 00:43:53.389 --> 00:43:54.090 and that's works. 770 00:43:54.110 --> 00:43:54.570 That's extra. 771 00:43:55.179 --> 00:43:58.699 Again, the ability to have normative authority is essential to 772 00:43:58.739 --> 00:44:03.110 a functioning, sensible church. Even in America, we have the Constitution. 773 00:44:03.469 --> 00:44:06.199 It's not every individual who just does it for himself. 774 00:44:06.429 --> 00:44:09.869 There's a Supreme Court. They have the authority to bind 775 00:44:09.909 --> 00:44:12.170 you to that, whether you like it or not. And 776 00:44:12.210 --> 00:44:14.889 I'm not saying, are you saying the Supreme Court's infallible? 777 00:44:14.949 --> 00:44:15.630 No, of course not. 778 00:44:16.449 --> 00:44:20.139 But they have a normative authority. to exercise authority and 779 00:44:20.179 --> 00:44:23.679 bind consciences. David already admits this and agrees with this 780 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:28.400 because he uses the Bible that comes from apostolic tradition, 781 00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:31.829 particularly with the four gospels. Irenaeus is the first to 782 00:44:31.889 --> 00:44:34.309 say that there's four gospels. There's nothing in the gospels 783 00:44:34.329 --> 00:44:36.469 that tells you that there's four. Where do we get 784 00:44:36.510 --> 00:44:39.969 this idea? Did it just magically come together? No, decisions 785 00:44:40.010 --> 00:44:42.099 were made in the history of the church to confirm that. 786 00:44:42.750 --> 00:44:45.570 And so Acts 15 is the basis for a normative 787 00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:47.949 authority in canon law. Now Jesus says, if you remember 788 00:44:48.050 --> 00:44:51.469 in John 16, I will not leave you. I will 789 00:44:51.510 --> 00:44:53.590 be with you until the end of the age. I 790 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:56.179 will lead you into all. He says in Matthew 28, 20, 791 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.190 I will be with you until the end of the age. 792 00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.480 If he says, I will not leave you or forsake you, 793 00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:01.360 leave you as orphans, I will lead you into all truth. 794 00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:04.260 So the church is promised to have the presence of 795 00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:06.380 Christ until the end of the age. I will not 796 00:45:06.420 --> 00:45:08.300 leave you or forsake you. I will lead you into 797 00:45:08.340 --> 00:45:12.400 all truth. These are fundamental promises to a historical reality. 798 00:45:13.210 --> 00:45:18.230 A historical church. No group in the first thousand years 799 00:45:18.369 --> 00:45:22.750 was Protestant evangelical at all, except for the heretics who 800 00:45:22.789 --> 00:45:25.030 share many of the same beliefs as the Protestants. 801 00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:28.880 Hatred of imagery. Hatred of the real presence. Hatred of relics. 802 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:31.420 Read St. Jerome against Helvidius. Read St. 803 00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:34.739 Jerome against Vigilantius. The exact same positions as the Protestants. 804 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.199 Protestantism is just a rehashed version of all the ancient 805 00:45:38.219 --> 00:45:41.820 heresies and all the different flavors. But we don't even 806 00:45:41.860 --> 00:45:43.719 know David's position because he doesn't tell us what the 807 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:44.119 church is. 808 00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:45.820 He does churchless apologetics. 809 00:45:46.219 --> 00:45:49.079 Have any of the churchless apologists ever thought to look 810 00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:51.699 to the first thousand years and see were there any 811 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.139 churchless apologetics in the church at that time? You could 812 00:45:55.239 --> 00:45:57.780 find a philosopher here or there who talks about these things. 813 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:01.250 I'm talking about recognized within the church, people that Protestants 814 00:46:01.269 --> 00:46:03.230 will appeal to, like I say in Athanasius for the 815 00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:05.050 gospel list of the New Testament. 816 00:46:06.829 --> 00:46:08.030 Were any of these people Protestants? 817 00:46:09.590 --> 00:46:13.090 The famous scholar out of Oxford, Alistair McGrath, wrote a book, 818 00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:16.389 very famous, called Eustacia Day, and came to the conclusion 819 00:46:16.429 --> 00:46:19.579 as a Protestant that Luther's doctrine of justification by faith 820 00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:21.099 alone was not taught in the first thousand years of 821 00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.440 Christianity or prior to Luther. So if that's the gospel, 822 00:46:24.460 --> 00:46:27.000 according to Galatians 1, if anything else is being a 823 00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.309 Pharisee and adding things, then the gospel was lost, even 824 00:46:30.329 --> 00:46:32.110 though Jesus promised to be with us, the church, until 825 00:46:32.150 --> 00:46:34.030 the end of the world. Thus, I want to know 826 00:46:34.929 --> 00:46:37.969 from David, where was anybody that had any of your 827 00:46:37.989 -->

00:46:40.619 values views, which we still don't even know what they are. 828 00:46:40.659 --> 00:46:42.440 I don't even know if he believes those justifications by 829 00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.000 faith alone. Where was that in the first thousand years? 830 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.239 Name a person, a church father that believed in churchless apologetics, 831 00:46:50.260 --> 00:46:51.800 that we're all just the church, bro. 832 00:46:52.619 --> 00:46:53.639 Just Jesus, bro. 833 00:46:54.420 --> 00:46:56.679 And like maybe icons, but maybe not. 834 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:57.420 I don't know, bro. 835 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.250 It's a radical individualism totally divorced from history. And why 836 00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:07.570 would we listen to a person who self-admittedly says, I'm 837 00:47:07.610 --> 00:47:10.110 not very good in these other subjects. If you're not 838 00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:12.659 good in these subjects, then why do you trust yourself 839 00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:17.739 for what's essential? Because you've decided that these other issues 840 00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:23.000 aren't essential. But you're trusting yourself for what's essential, even 841 00:47:23.019 --> 00:47:25.260 though you're telling us that we shouldn't listen to you. 842 00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:30.039 So Jesus says in Acts 2, 38, 39, or Peter says, 843 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:32.730 excuse me, repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. 844 00:47:33.309 --> 00:47:36.409 And so baptism is a necessary work. And I'd like 845 00:47:36.449 --> 00:47:38.530 to know if he believes in baptismal regeneration or not. 846 00:47:39.889 --> 00:47:52.420 Thank you very much for that rebuttal. We'll kick it 847 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.239 over to David. And friendly reminder, if you can hold 848 00:47:54.260 --> 00:47:58.030 the mic very close. I've got the timer set for you, David, 849 00:47:58.119 --> 00:47:58.869 on your first word. 850 00:48:01.150 --> 00:48:01.289 Check. 851 00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:04.750 In my opening statement, I went through the Jerusalem Council 852 00:48:04.769 --> 00:48:07.809 in Acts 15, where we saw how the church reacted 853 00:48:07.869 --> 00:48:13.030 to some preachers who came from the Jerusalem church adding something. 854 00:48:12.769 --> 00:48:13.349 To the gospel. 855 00:48:13.610 --> 00:48:17.489 Galatians 1, Paul anathematized the false teachers for adding something 856 00:48:17.590 --> 00:48:20.949 to the gospel. The Orthodox Church added icon veneration to 857 00:48:20.969 --> 00:48:25.230 the gospel, but they made correction impossible by anathematizing anyone 858 00:48:25.250 --> 00:48:29.110 who disagreed. How did Jay respond? He cites Paul in 859 00:48:29.110 --> 00:48:34.300 1 Corinthians excommunicating people. Yeah, for some serious moral problems, 860 00:48:34.340 --> 00:48:36.440 not for refusing to add something to the gospel. How 861 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.929 are you even quoting Paul? How are you quoting Paul, 862 00:48:39.949 --> 00:48:42.969 given what he says in Galatians 1, about exactly what 863 00:48:43.250 --> 00:48:45.489 the second council of Nicaea did? And by the way, 864 00:48:45.510 --> 00:48:51.199 in the first chapter of the exact same book, 1 Corinthians, 865 00:48:51.300 --> 00:48:54.489 Paul writes, my brothers and sisters, some from Chloe's household 866 00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:57.469 have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 867 00:48:57.829 --> 00:48:58.590 What I mean is this. 868 00:48:58.690 --> 00:49:01.269 One of you says, I follow Paul. Another, I follow Apollos. Another, 869 00:49:01.309 --> 00:49:04.269 I follow Cephas. Still another, I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? 870 00:49:04.650 --> 00:49:07.449 Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the 871 00:49:07.469 --> 00:49:11.389 name of Paul? You have lots of strong warnings over 872 00:49:11.929 --> 00:49:17.849 dividing up. And I mean, who's more schismatic than these guys? 873 00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:24.480 It's like the king all time. kings. For many, many centuries, 874 00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:25.679 even in the church today. 875 00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:28.699 I mean, how many of these branches of the Eastern 876 00:49:28.739 --> 00:49:31.260 Orthodox Church are in schism with others? Right when we 877 00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:34.869 landed here in Orlando, I saw that the Russian Orthodox 878 00:49:34.909 --> 00:49:38.690 Church had declared that Ukrainian Orthodox now had to be re-baptized. 879 00:49:38.949 --> 00:49:40.409 They don't even require that of Protestants. 880 00:49:40.429 --> 00:49:41.360 Anyway. 881 00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:41.590 Anyway. 882 00:49:42.510 --> 00:49:45.150 Lots of strong warnings about dividing up. And notice if 883 00:49:45.550 --> 00:49:47.730 someone was saying, hey, I follow Apollos. No, I follow 884 00:49:47.769 --> 00:49:50.449 Paul and so on. They're dividing up into groups. Any 885 00:49:50.469 --> 00:49:51.730 one of these guys could have said, yeah, but we're 886 00:49:51.750 --> 00:49:53.269 the only ones who really follow Christ. And they would 887 00:49:53.289 --> 00:49:55.130 have been fine. Paul says, stop doing that. Just stop 888 00:49:55.150 --> 00:49:59.389 doing that stuff. We saw that the Jerusalem church didn't 889 00:49:59.449 --> 00:50:02.820 want people to violate their consciences. What do you do 890 00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:06.159 with this? Jay says they had a normative authority to 891 00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:10.929 bind consciences. I mean, wouldn't the first council have had 892 00:50:10.969 --> 00:50:13.369 the authority to do that? Wouldn't Paul have the authority 893 00:50:13.409 --> 00:50:16.280 to do that? Couldn't Peter and James and Paul all 894 00:50:16.300 --> 00:50:17.940 do that? Paul could have just said, eat the freaking 895 00:50:17.980 --> 00:50:20.039 food sacrificed to an idol, you idiot. I don't care 896 00:50:20.059 --> 00:50:21.000 about your stupid conscience. 897

00:50:22.300 --> 00:50:22.739 He didn't. 898 00:50:23.900 --> 00:50:27.119 In fact, Paul was totally fine with people having all 899 00:50:27.219 --> 00:50:28.340 kinds of differences. 900 00:50:28.949 --> 00:50:29.570 What's he say? 901 00:50:29.809 --> 00:50:34.960 Romans 14. Um, As for the one who is weak 902 00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:37.280 in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 903 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:39.599 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak 904 00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:42.219 person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats 905 00:50:42.300 --> 00:50:44.190 despise the one who abstains, and let not the one 906 00:50:44.210 --> 00:50:46.650 who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for 907 00:50:46.690 --> 00:50:47.530 God has welcomed him. 908 00:50:48.369 --> 00:50:51.429 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? 909 00:50:51.949 --> 00:50:54.719 It is before his own master that he stands or falls, 910 00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:56.880 and he will be upheld, for the Lord is able 911 00:50:56.940 --> 00:51:00.289 to make him stand. One person esteems one day as 912 00:51:00.329 --> 00:51:03.619 better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each 913 00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:07.659 one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The 914 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:09.599 one who observes the day, observes it in honor of 915 00:51:09.619 --> 00:51:11.539 the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of 916 00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:13.429 the Lord, since he gives thanks to God. While the 917 00:51:13.489 --> 00:51:15.750 one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and 918 00:51:15.769 --> 00:51:17.849 gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to 919 00:51:17.889 --> 00:51:20.170 himself and none of us dies to himself. For if 920 00:51:20.250 --> 00:51:22.610 we live, we live to the Lord. And if we die, 921 00:51:22.690 --> 00:51:24.769 we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live 922 00:51:24.909 --> 00:51:28.070 or whether we die, we are the Lord's. And keep 923 00:51:28.090 --> 00:51:33.789 in mind, first century, the dietary restrictions and special days 924 00:51:33.849 --> 00:51:37.110 and holidays and so on, those were really, really, really 925 00:51:37.170 --> 00:51:39.679 big issues for lots of people. Paul says, be convinced 926 00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:41.800 in your own mind and stop judging people if they 927 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:45.619 disagree with you. Now, any of this would be, you'd 928 00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:50.780 be anathematized for having the wrong view. I pointed out 929 00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:53.099 that if you have a church council controlled by an empress, 930 00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:56.940 you open the door to politicians controlling your church. That 931 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:00.250 really is a serious, serious problem as far as I 932 00:52:00.269 --> 00:52:00.590 can see it. 933 00:52:00.829 --> 00:52:01.480 You can't change it. 934 00:52:01.809 --> 00:52:04.030 If you say it's wrong, then why wouldn't it be 935 00:52:04.070 --> 00:52:09.510 wrong for Empress Irene to orchestrate the entire council, put 936 00:52:09.550 --> 00:52:11.659 people in place to do what she wanted to do? 937 00:52:15.380 --> 00:52:16.940 As for the issue of. 938 00:52:18.909 --> 00:52:22.500 Unity, not dividing up. I mean, this would really be 939 00:52:22.579 --> 00:52:27.159 one of the main issues. If I were just reading 940 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:29.960 what the Scriptures say, yeah, there are times when you 941 00:52:29.980 --> 00:52:33.659 divide up, right? Namely, like adding something to the gospel. 942 00:52:33.719 --> 00:52:38.710 That's one of the reasons. Serious, horrible, moral sin. That's 943 00:52:38.809 --> 00:52:43.079 another one. But over and over again, there's this huge 944 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.940 emphasis on unity. And what you see that the emphasis 945 00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:51.539 is on unity is because human beings have this extreme 946 00:52:51.579 --> 00:52:55.139 desire to be the one special group, the group that 947 00:52:55.179 --> 00:52:57.079 gets to point to everyone else and say, look at 948 00:52:57.099 --> 00:53:00.139 you losers, you're not part of the in-group. Easy to 949 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:02.099 fall into that. Over and over again warns against it. 950 00:53:03.130 --> 00:53:05.329 And there are people who take advantage of that desire. 951 00:53:06.230 --> 00:53:10.690 Think about Mark 9. Teacher, said John, we saw someone 952 00:53:10.750 --> 00:53:13.010 driving out demons in your name and we told him 953 00:53:13.050 --> 00:53:16.530 to stop because he was not one of us. They 954 00:53:16.570 --> 00:53:18.070 told him to stop. Stop, you're not one of our group. 955 00:53:18.949 --> 00:53:21.190 Do not stop him, Jesus said, for no one who 956 00:53:21.230 --> 00:53:23.250 does a miracle in my name can in the next 957 00:53:23.329 --> 00:53:26.110 moment say anything bad about me. For whoever is not 958 00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:29.429 against us is for us. Said, hey, if he's performing 959 00:53:29.469 --> 00:53:30.860 miracles in my name, he's not going to talk trash 960 00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:31.150 about me. 961 00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:31.599 Leave him alone. 962 00:53:35.900 --> 00:53:39.219 Philippians 1, Paul writes, It is true that some preach 963 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.949 Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 964 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:44.300 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I 965 00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:46.849 am put here for the defense of the gospel. The 966 00:53:46.909 --> 00:53:51.429 former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing 967 00:53:51.449 --> 00:53:53.969 that they can stir up trouble for me while I 968 00:53:54.010 --> 00:53:57.329 am in chains. But what does it matter? The important 969 00:53:57.369 --> 00:54:00.530 thing is that in every way, whether from false motives 970

00:54:00.710 --> 00:54:04.929 or true, Christ is preached, and because of this I rejoice. 971 00:54:06.900 --> 00:54:12.860 These were anti-Pauline Christians. They hated Paul. But whoever they were, 972 00:54:13.219 --> 00:54:16.340 they were preaching accurately about Christ, and Paul said, I rejoice. 973 00:54:17.309 --> 00:54:18.050 They hated Paul. 974 00:54:18.090 --> 00:54:20.650 They weren't part of Paul's group, but Paul rejoiced because 975 00:54:20.690 --> 00:54:24.070 they were preaching Christ. I found out I'm not supposed 976 00:54:24.090 --> 00:54:26.230 to be preaching Christ because I'm in the wrong church. 977 00:54:28.909 --> 00:54:33.280 Jay brings up apostolic successions. 978 00:54:34.590 --> 00:54:38.110 I mean, my goodness, the Judaizers came directly from the apostles, 979 00:54:38.489 --> 00:54:40.849 and they were false teachers. You find this warning over 980 00:54:40.889 --> 00:54:43.829 and over again. In Acts 20, Paul gathers the elders 981 00:54:44.309 --> 00:54:47.469 of Ephesus together and says, guys, as soon as I'm gone, 982 00:54:47.590 --> 00:54:53.400 false teachers are coming right out from you. In 1 John, 983 00:54:53.500 --> 00:54:55.059 he says, they went out from us, but they weren't 984 00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:58.619 of us. You have false teachers emerging from right within 985 00:54:58.659 --> 00:54:59.099 the church. 986 00:55:00.909 --> 00:55:01.789 What do you do? 987 00:55:01.809 --> 00:55:03.650 You say, well, you know, they're coming from the apostles, 988 00:55:03.690 --> 00:55:05.369 so they're good as gold. No, you still have to 989 00:55:05.409 --> 00:55:10.349 test them. What did the apostles say in Acts 15? 990 00:55:10.349 --> 00:55:13.820 They didn't get this instruction from us. So the test 991 00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.360 is not whether they can trace themselves back somehow. The 992 00:55:17.420 --> 00:55:21.079 test is whether what they're teaching lines up with the 993 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:26.159 instruction of the apostles. Now, Jay makes fun of me, 994 00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:29.320 and I open the door gladly, and I will continue 995 00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.280 to do so. For me saying I'm a moron, I 996 00:55:31.300 --> 00:55:32.420 don't know much about something. 997 00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:33.699 That's true. 998 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:35.480 That's just me. I'm just going to say it. Guys, 999 00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:38.940 if you, if I were you, if I were you 1000 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:40.860 and I knew the thoughts that have gone through this head, 1001 00:55:42.010 --> 00:55:45.150 I would be terrified of me if I were capable 1002 00:55:45.170 --> 00:55:50.590 of fear. But I mean, what's cool is I actually 1003 00:55:51.750 --> 00:55:53.969 I actually like what the Bible says on things like this. 1004 00:55:53.989 --> 00:55:55.989 Like Paul is saying, hey, this person thinks this, this 1005 00:55:56.030 --> 00:55:58.530 person thinks that. And it's fine to have differences. But 1006 00:55:58.630 --> 00:56:02.750 even think of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13. 1007 00:56:02.750 --> 00:56:05.969 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror. 1008 00:56:06.130 --> 00:56:08.550 Then we shall see face to face. Now I know 1009 00:56:09.210 --> 00:56:12.909 in part. Then I shall know fully, even as I 1010 00:56:12.989 --> 00:56:16.800 am fully known. I don't know everything right now. There's 1011 00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:18.699 all kinds of stuff I don't know. I know in part. 1012 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:22.170 I see dimly, like through a glass. What does he 1013 00:56:22.210 --> 00:56:25.389 say right after that? And now these three remain, faith, hope, 1014 00:56:25.670 --> 00:56:27.989 and love, but the greatest of these is love. 1015 00:56:28.849 --> 00:56:29.110 Wrong. 1016 00:56:29.179 --> 00:56:31.860 The greatest of these is massive division all day, every day. 1017 00:56:35.860 --> 00:56:38.619 As far as not knowing things, Jay then says, well, 1018 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:39.900 you know, how do you even know you're right about 1019 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:42.920 the essentials? You can kind of tell what the essentials are, right? 1020 00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:46.099 You read the Gospels. You look at what the apostles 1021 00:56:46.780 --> 00:56:49.820 went out, wherever they taught, wherever they went, they focused 1022 00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:55.719 on Jesus' death for sins, his resurrection, and his divine nature. 1023 00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:59.119 The existence of God. Jesus is the Messiah. You see 1024 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:03.840 what the essentials are. Other things where people, where, I mean, 1025 00:57:03.900 --> 00:57:06.039 even tons of Christians disagree over and over again. 1026 00:57:07.619 --> 00:57:07.980 I don't know. 1027 00:57:08.179 --> 00:57:10.780 If you don't see those laid down as this foundation 1028 00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:12.239 that they spread everywhere. 1029 00:57:12.739 --> 00:57:13.119 One minute. 1030 00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:16.920 Seems like it's not part of the core. And he says, 1031 00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:21.780 why would I trust myself? Look, I understand. I'm not 1032 00:57:21.860 --> 00:57:24.659 saying I'm stupid, so I don't know what to believe 1033 00:57:25.369 --> 00:57:29.110 on basic things or something like that. There are all 1034 00:57:29.170 --> 00:57:32.829 sorts of things that I'm completely convinced are true. There 1035 00:57:32.849 --> 00:57:36.369 are just other things where really smart people disagree. People 1036 00:57:36.409 --> 00:57:38.750 who are way smarter than me think this. People are 1037 00:57:38.789 --> 00:57:40.619 way smarter than me like that. And I look at 1038 00:57:40.659 --> 00:57:42.460 that and I go, I don't know. And I don't 1039 00:57:42.500 --> 00:57:44.599 think I have to know. And if you say, no, 1040 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.460 you have to know this stuff, for what? For salvation? 1041 00:57:48.760 --> 00:57:51.099

To figure out what the one true church is? And 1042 00:57:51.139 --> 00:57:53.820 when I see these things where I go, ah, this 1043 00:57:53.860 --> 00:57:55.840 guy argues this, this guy argues that, this church father 1044 00:57:55.900 --> 00:57:58.800 argued this, this church father argued that, this guy interprets 1045 00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:01.280 it this way, this guy interprets it that way. And 1046 00:58:01.300 --> 00:58:02.679 you say, you have to be, you have to get those, 1047 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:04.030 you have to be right on all those things. And 1048 00:58:04.070 --> 00:58:05.730 I look and it's like, this is in the context 1049 00:58:05.789 --> 00:58:08.929 of you adding things to the gospel and contradicting everything 1050 00:58:08.949 --> 00:58:11.630 we say, we see about the first church council. It's like, 1051 00:58:12.690 --> 00:58:15.909 I really have a problem taking what you say seriously. 1052 00:58:17.150 --> 00:58:27.949 Thank you for that rebuttal as well, David. All right, gentlemen, 1053 00:58:27.969 --> 00:58:30.570 we have the 25 minutes of open dialogue. The floor 1054 00:58:30.630 --> 00:58:31.190 is all yours. 1055 00:58:31.630 --> 00:58:34.030 Jay, I just have one quick thing, because I was 1056 00:58:34.050 --> 00:58:37.170 wondering about this as I was actually talking. And I just, 1057 00:58:37.889 --> 00:58:42.349 I don't know. Because on the one hand, you, I guess, 1058 00:58:42.409 --> 00:58:45.869 are supposed to obey your church leadership. On the other hand, 1059 00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:50.949 sometimes churches get things wrong. So in the situation before, 1060 00:58:51.010 --> 00:58:53.789 like the Second Council of Nicaea, if it was after 1061 00:58:53.829 --> 00:58:59.840 the Council of Hieria, when 338 bishops got together and 1062 00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:05.050 condemned icon veneration, if you were in the church right 1063 00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:08.289 after that, because people went in different directions, some people 1064 00:59:08.329 --> 00:59:10.269 took the anathema and other people said, oh, well, the 1065 00:59:10.289 --> 00:59:12.130 church says it, then I have to obey it. Like, 1066 00:59:12.469 --> 00:59:15.269 is there an official position on if there were a 1067 00:59:15.309 --> 00:59:19.179 council like that, what are you supposed to do? Do 1068 00:59:19.219 --> 00:59:22.199 you obey the council even if you think it's wrong? 1069 00:59:22.219 --> 00:59:25.179 Or do you take the anathema and say, I'm going 1070 00:59:25.219 --> 00:59:25.719 against the church? 1071 00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.360 No, we believe that there are false synods and false councils. 1072 00:59:29.980 --> 00:59:33.780 No, no, I mean, if you're just a regular layman 1073 00:59:34.820 --> 00:59:39.800 Christian in Constantinople, and the ruling came down from the church, 1074 00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:41.199 even if you think it's wrong, you're like, these guys 1075 00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:43.260 are obviously wrong, this is wrong, but it came down 1076 00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:44.619 as the official... I understand. 1077 00:59:44.820 --> 00:59:48.969 The same maxim says that the true church, even if 1078 00:59:49.050 --> 00:59:52.730 it was persecuted and reduced to small numbers at times, 1079 00:59:53.050 --> 00:59:55.909 you have a duty to follow the truth above an 1080 00:59:56.010 --> 00:59:59.059 erring bishop or an erring synod. So we don't think 1081 00:59:59.099 --> 01:00:02.679 that every synod is infallible or inerrant. So that's why 1082 01:00:02.699 --> 01:00:06.070 an orthodox conception of what's a pan-orthodox or an accepted 1083 01:00:06.090 --> 01:00:09.710 synod is, not just did it teach consistently with what 1084 01:00:09.750 --> 01:00:13.269 was prior, but also reception theory that over time, true 1085 01:00:13.289 --> 01:00:15.750 and false councils get ferreted out to be received or 1086 01:00:15.789 --> 01:00:16.570 to be rejected. 1087 01:00:16.949 --> 01:00:21.110 So like, would you, you would say, no, go against 1088 01:00:21.130 --> 01:00:25.030 the council, even though it's like you're out. 1089 01:00:24.570 --> 01:00:24.889 Of the church? 1090 01:00:24.909 --> 01:00:28.400 Well, I would say that a Yeah, so for example, St. 1091 01:00:28.420 --> 01:00:31.199 John Chrysostom was condemned by a synod and was persecuted 1092 01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:33.719 at one time. And the synod would have been above Chrysostom. 1093 01:00:33.800 --> 01:00:37.170 But it was a false persecution of him by, I think, 1094 01:00:37.210 --> 01:00:40.230 another empress. So no, we don't think that the state 1095 01:00:40.409 --> 01:00:44.610 or every local synod or even a false council is 1096 01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:47.489 necessarily binding. So you do have the duty to follow 1097 01:00:47.530 --> 01:00:48.210 a higher authority. 1098 01:00:49.510 --> 01:00:53.250 And just one quick follow-up. I would guess that there's 1099 01:00:54.429 --> 01:00:58.630 like a distinction between... you know, like a priest or 1100 01:00:58.650 --> 01:01:01.369 a bishop and like a layman, like if a layman 1101 01:01:01.389 --> 01:01:03.079 heard the church council and he said, oh, I have to, 1102 01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:05.360 this is what I have to do now, but the 1103 01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:06.079 church was wrong. 1104 01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:09.039 So you might think that we're Roman Catholics where it's 1105 01:01:09.059 --> 01:01:12.610 this sort of dogmatic total top-down system where it's divine fiat. 1106 01:01:12.760 --> 01:01:13.650 It's not that way at all. 1107 01:01:13.690 --> 01:01:15.889 In fact, there's a lot of debate and discussion, which 1108 01:01:15.989 --> 01:01:18.730 is interesting given the fact that we still have the 1109 01:01:18.789 --> 01:01:21.929 same teachings from the first thousand years of Christianity, which 1110 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:25.090 would testify, I think, to something more going on than 1111 01:01:25.139 -->

01:01:28.489 just a human institution. If with all of this freedom 1112 01:01:28.550 --> 01:01:32.550 to debate and discuss these issues and to ferret out 1113 01:01:32.570 --> 01:01:35.769 true and false counsels, if state leaders, as you implied 1114 01:01:35.809 --> 01:01:38.719 with the, you know, Kirill and whatnot, really kind of 1115 01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.739 run and subvert this church, the emperors who were Aryan 1116 01:01:41.780 --> 01:01:44.219 emperors would have long ago subverted the church. 1117 01:01:45.139 --> 01:01:46.579 Jay, if you're able to pull your mic just a 1118 01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:49.269 little bit closer to your mouth. There you go. Thank you. 1119 01:01:49.409 --> 01:01:55.760 So, So I'm not sure how a layman would be 1120 01:01:55.820 --> 01:02:00.079 expected to understand, here's the church, 338 bishops, vote. This 1121 01:02:00.099 --> 01:02:00.579 is just 33 years. 1122 01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:04.099 Actually, in the Byzantine period, laymen were famous for being 1123 01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:07.010 very involved in debates and theology and philosophy. Many of 1124 01:02:07.050 --> 01:02:10.750 them were actually educated. So laymen, for example, who were 1125 01:02:10.789 --> 01:02:14.070 involved in these things would be interested in seeing, does 1126 01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:16.739 the Council of Herera or any of these other synods 1127 01:02:17.050 --> 01:02:20.710 Do they teach what the prior synods taught? For example, 1128 01:02:21.210 --> 01:02:24.030 most ecumenical councils that we accept, one of the first 1129 01:02:24.050 --> 01:02:27.530 things that you read in the canons is, we together 1130 01:02:27.610 --> 01:02:31.940 with the fathers and the previous synods. 1131 01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:33.300 Hold blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1132 01:02:33.400 --> 01:02:36.260 So in other words, it's not like there's this bare 1133 01:02:36.300 --> 01:02:40.440 authoritarianism where the bishop comes in and says, you're bowing 1134 01:02:40.460 --> 01:02:43.650 to this because we said so. The laity, in many cases, 1135 01:02:43.710 --> 01:02:46.710 including the iconoclast controversy, were one of the main drivers 1136 01:02:46.809 --> 01:02:51.739 to go against the errant patriarchs. Monastics and laity won 1137 01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:53.559 the iconodulia controversy. 1138 01:02:54.920 --> 01:02:56.360 I mean, there were some bishops as well. 1139 01:02:56.780 --> 01:02:59.860 I mean, the point is you had lay people on 1140 01:02:59.900 --> 01:03:01.760 both sides of the controversy. You had monks on both 1141 01:03:01.780 --> 01:03:03.469 sides of the controversy. You had bishops on both sides 1142 01:03:03.489 --> 01:03:08.989 of the controversy. One eventually won. But I mean, when 1143 01:03:09.630 --> 01:03:13.929 you look at the reasons behind things, you see, even 1144 01:03:14.210 --> 01:03:17.480 when the Iconoclasts, when they got that, you've got Leo 1145 01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:22.280 III first, and then you've got Constantine V. Constantine V 1146 01:03:22.460 --> 01:03:25.019 is orchestrating things. So it's political. And then later on 1147 01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:29.579 with Irene, it's political. And then even after the Second 1148 01:03:29.619 --> 01:03:33.199 Council of Nicaea, they flip it back because they started 1149 01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:36.969 losing to Muslims and so on again. So it flipped back, 1150 01:03:37.369 --> 01:03:39.170 and then they try to reverse that and so on. 1151 01:03:39.429 --> 01:03:42.190 You could go with a historical conspiracy theory, which, again, 1152 01:03:42.309 --> 01:03:44.710 I thought you didn't really like conspiracy theories. But this 1153 01:03:44.769 --> 01:03:46.829 is a valid conspiracy theory according to David as well 1154 01:03:46.869 --> 01:03:48.610 as the KGB bishops or whatever. 1155 01:03:49.250 --> 01:03:50.329 But it's not a conspiracy. 1156 01:03:50.369 --> 01:03:53.989 You said it was a geopolitical conspiracy for the empresses 1157 01:03:54.110 --> 01:03:56.250 behind this, right? 1158 01:03:56.409 --> 01:03:56.929 Absolutely. 1159 01:03:57.070 --> 01:03:59.489 And I admitted to you that there were Aryan emperors 1160 01:03:59.530 --> 01:04:01.670 who sought to subvert and change the doctrine of the 1161 01:04:01.710 --> 01:04:03.469 deity of Christ, and they didn't succeed. 1162 01:04:03.550 --> 01:04:06.239 Yeah, saying that this empress got this done does not 1163 01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:08.500 mean that every other person who ever tried to do 1164 01:04:08.639 --> 01:04:10.860 something similar got it done. I mean. 1165 01:04:11.139 --> 01:04:14.119 I'm saying it's irrelevant to the topic of whether or 1166 01:04:14.159 --> 01:04:17.360 not the true church is identifiable in these ways. 1167 01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:21.340 One second, one second. You've been dominating this for this 1168 01:04:21.579 --> 01:04:22.840 whole session. I want to. 1169 01:04:22.739 --> 01:04:25.019 Respond real quickly just to one point, which is that 1170 01:04:25.469 --> 01:04:28.269 it's a silly line of argumentation because you could find 1171 01:04:28.550 --> 01:04:33.269 many of the Protestant reformers had German state or state 1172 01:04:33.349 --> 01:04:36.469 support for their reformation. So I could just raise that 1173 01:04:36.510 --> 01:04:39.510 same argument and say, The entire Lutheran Reformation was the 1174 01:04:39.530 --> 01:04:41.550 German princes supporting Luther because they didn't like the Pope. 1175 01:04:41.889 --> 01:04:43.670 So that doesn't tell us anything about what the true 1176 01:04:43.710 --> 01:04:46.309 church is. It's irrelevant to how do we identify the 1177 01:04:46.329 --> 01:04:46.909 true church. 1178 01:04:47.289 --> 01:04:49.090 And I don't even know. It's very irrelevant. What is 1179 01:04:49.110 --> 01:04:51.469 your church? We don't even know. What church do you attend? 1180 01:04:51.489 --> 01:04:53.010 A non-denominational

Protestant. 1181 01:04:53.650 --> 01:04:56.230 Okay, so you attend a non-denominational church. Yeah, this is 1182 01:04:56.250 --> 01:04:59.090 not me. Okay, does it teach baptismal regeneration, for example? 1183 01:04:59.239 --> 01:04:59.449 Listen. 1184 01:05:01.010 --> 01:05:01.590 One second. 1185 01:05:01.610 --> 01:05:02.409 Why is that funny? 1186 01:05:02.429 --> 01:05:04.849 I don't want to get in the way. I was 1187 01:05:04.869 --> 01:05:06.750 thinking of myself in this situation, like what would I 1188 01:05:06.789 --> 01:05:10.510 do as someone who, okay, what am I supposed to 1189 01:05:10.550 --> 01:05:13.880 do here? If a church council says do this or 1190 01:05:13.900 --> 01:05:18.659 your anathema, and then 33 years later says don't do that. 1191 01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:20.079 Or your anathema. 1192 01:05:20.099 --> 01:05:22.980 The argument is not that a council or an authority 1193 01:05:23.019 --> 01:05:26.170 itself is infallible or that we defer in some sort 1194 01:05:26.190 --> 01:05:27.309 of like worship of authority. 1195 01:05:27.349 --> 01:05:29.199 That's not our position. So it's not real. 1196 01:05:29.219 --> 01:05:31.219 I don't understand how, and how does this identify the 1197 01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:32.539 true church or not? 1198 01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:33.260 That's what I'm saying. 1199 01:05:33.489 --> 01:05:37.150 But I didn't argue that authority. 1200 01:05:36.730 --> 01:05:37.489 Is what identifies it. 1201 01:05:37.570 --> 01:05:40.690 If the exact same church within a period of 33 1202 01:05:40.690 --> 01:05:44.250 years can anathematize you for completely opposite things, I would 1203 01:05:44.289 --> 01:05:46.329 look at that and say, we got a problem here. 1204 01:05:46.809 --> 01:05:51.070 Because the argument is not that the infallibility or preservation 1205 01:05:51.110 --> 01:05:55.059 or indefectibility of the church applies to every local area 1206 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:59.400 or every local controversy. The argument is that throughout the 1207 01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:02.340 eras and the centuries and the ages, there will not 1208 01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:05.460 be an apostasy of this teaching of the church. 1209 01:06:05.579 --> 01:06:07.599 The church will not lose these four. 1210 01:06:07.460 --> 01:06:12.170 Marks that the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed lays out, one holy Catholic apostolic. 1211 01:06:12.329 --> 01:06:15.670 So it's just simply irrelevant to this argument. And by 1212 01:06:15.710 --> 01:06:17.769 the way, I didn't argue that authority is what gives 1213 01:06:17.789 --> 01:06:20.510 you the certitude. I just simply argued that the true 1214 01:06:20.570 --> 01:06:25.170 church must have and would have normative authority as one 1215 01:06:25.190 --> 01:06:28.500 of its marks in And that's one of the things 1216 01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:32.059 that identifies. And since Protestantism doesn't have normative authority as 1217 01:06:32.139 --> 01:06:35.300 one of its traits or one of its characteristics, that's 1218 01:06:35.360 --> 01:06:37.650 an easy way to say you're not in that church. 1219 01:06:38.570 --> 01:06:40.610 And the reason I'm bringing this up, again, here I'm 1220 01:06:40.630 --> 01:06:43.530 just thinking about me, like what would I do in 1221 01:06:44.010 --> 01:06:47.030 various situations? Because it sounds like if you have the 1222 01:06:47.070 --> 01:06:49.050 church ruling this way or you do this or your 1223 01:06:49.070 --> 01:06:50.929 anathema and then don't do this or your anathema and 1224 01:06:50.949 --> 01:06:54.829 they can completely reverse, I would I would be seriously like, 1225 01:06:54.909 --> 01:06:56.309 what the heck do I do here? I mean, it's 1226 01:06:56.329 --> 01:06:58.670 almost like you want to follow Christ, and all of 1227 01:06:58.690 --> 01:07:01.170 a sudden, you're. 1228 01:07:00.420 --> 01:07:01.239 In a minefield. 1229 01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:03.360 You're in a minefield, and you're surrounded by mines in 1230 01:07:03.460 --> 01:07:06.800 one wrong step in any direction, and you're blown. 1231 01:07:06.579 --> 01:07:11.239 Away by anathemines. You're surrounded by anathemines. The promise is. 1232 01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:14.409 That in every era and in every generation, the Holy 1233 01:07:14.449 --> 01:07:17.150 Spirit will be with the church. The gates of hell 1234 01:07:17.190 --> 01:07:20.199 will not prevail universally against that. It doesn't mean that 1235 01:07:20.260 --> 01:07:22.300 in some area in the book of Revelation early on, 1236 01:07:22.340 --> 01:07:24.260 it says that the lampstand of your church could be 1237 01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:24.820 taken away. 1238 01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:25.900 Absolutely. 1239 01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:28.099 We don't have a problem saying that the lampstand of 1240 01:07:28.119 --> 01:07:29.420 the Roman church could be taken away. 1241 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:30.880 But there will. 1242 01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:35.400 Not be a universal apostatizing and loss of the fundamentals 1243 01:07:35.440 --> 01:07:35.960 of the church. 1244 01:07:36.840 --> 01:07:38.099 You agree? I agree. 1245 01:07:38.980 --> 01:07:41.590 Could you name anybody in the first 900 years of 1246 01:07:41.610 --> 01:07:44.590 the church that had your theological non-denominational position? 1247 01:07:45.030 --> 01:07:45.099 Um. 1248 01:07:46.400 --> 01:07:47.679 I just go with the Bible, man. I just go 1249 01:07:47.699 --> 01:07:54.050 with the Bible. I'm just, I'm, I'm, no, I'm just, 1250 01:07:54.090 --> 01:07:56.349 I'm just going with the Bible. But hang on, hang on, 1251 01:07:56.369 --> 01:07:59.210 hang on, hang on. I'm still, I'm actually really trying 1252 01:07:59.250 --> 01:08:04.730 to understand this. And again, I'm very new to all this. 1253 01:08:04.750 --> 01:08:07.519 This all started this year. Suppose I were in the 1254 01:08:07.559 --> 01:08:10.619 situation that I was in and I'm in a jail 1255 01:08:10.659 -->

01:08:14.320 cell and I want to follow Christ. How do I 1256 01:08:14.400 --> 01:08:21.840 get like from there? to the one true church, like there, there, there, 1257 01:08:22.119 --> 01:08:25.960 there aren't even many like Eastern Orthodox church services in prison. 1258 01:08:26.100 --> 01:08:27.460 I never even heard of it. I never even heard 1259 01:08:27.500 --> 01:08:29.520 of it when I was in prison. So like, how 1260 01:08:29.539 --> 01:08:31.380 do you get from there? I mean, can you, can you, 1261 01:08:31.500 --> 01:08:33.020 can you follow Christ or you can't follow Christ? In 1262 01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:34.300 other words, if you're just sitting there with a Bible, 1263 01:08:34.340 --> 01:08:36.079 how do you get from sitting with a Bible in 1264 01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:37.560 a cell to the one true church? 1265 01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:39.970 I have no problem saying with, with what Christ says 1266 01:08:40.020 --> 01:08:41.930 that to whom much is given, much was required. 1267 01:08:42.149 --> 01:08:44.670 The more light you're given, the more you have a 1268 01:08:44.869 --> 01:08:46.090 duty and responsibility. 1269 01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:48.020 But none of that has anything to do with whether 1270 01:08:48.039 --> 01:08:49.500 there is a true church or not, because you could 1271 01:08:49.539 --> 01:08:51.180 say the same thing about the Old Testament. Most people 1272 01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:53.310 in the Old Testament didn't know about the God of Israel. 1273 01:08:53.409 --> 01:08:55.869 So is it unfair and there's no people of God 1274 01:08:55.890 --> 01:08:57.989 in the Old Testament because only the nation of Israel 1275 01:08:58.029 --> 01:08:59.409 had the covenant that God gave them? 1276 01:08:59.430 --> 01:08:59.909 No, of course not. 1277 01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:02.479 So it's a silly line of argumentation. And when you 1278 01:09:02.500 --> 01:09:05.579 talked about essentials, you said, well, it's death, burial, resurrection. 1279 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:07.479 And I forget the other thing you said. You didn't 1280 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:09.609 mention the Trinity. Is the Trinity essential? 1281 01:09:10.050 --> 01:09:10.170 Yeah. 1282 01:09:11.050 --> 01:09:12.170 But that wasn't in your list. 1283 01:09:12.890 --> 01:09:14.869 I mean, there are other things in my list. Those 1284 01:09:14.909 --> 01:09:17.170 were examples. It's like when I said I tend to 1285 01:09:17.210 --> 01:09:19.250 attack things that are obviously false, and I mentioned Islam. 1286 01:09:19.270 --> 01:09:21.710 I'm not saying other things aren't obviously false. 1287 01:09:21.909 --> 01:09:27.579 Did any apostle use the word Trinity? Arguing like a Muslim. 1288 01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:29.079 You see it in the Bible. You see it in 1289 01:09:29.100 --> 01:09:29.399 the Bible. 1290 01:09:29.420 --> 01:09:32.439 No, I'm arguing with a Protestant who argues like a Muslim. 1291 01:09:34.300 --> 01:09:36.460 I mean, is Trinity in the Bible? It's

a serious point. 1292 01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:38.720 Yes, the Trinity is taught in the Bible. 1293 01:09:38.739 --> 01:09:42.079 Is Trinitas or the conception of Trinity in that sense? 1294 01:09:42.100 --> 01:09:44.340 No, the word theology isn't in there, too. There's theology 1295 01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:44.880 in the Bible. 1296 01:09:45.100 --> 01:09:49.859 So the doctrine of the Trinity, right, is solidified. I mean, 1297 01:09:49.890 --> 01:09:52.189 you could argue that it obviously exists prior to Nicaea, 1298 01:09:52.229 --> 01:09:55.109 but the deity of Christ is taught at Nicaea. But 1299 01:09:55.189 --> 01:09:57.810 the codification and mandating, for example, of the deity of 1300 01:09:57.829 --> 01:10:00.590 the Holy Spirit, that's not until Basil and Constantinople I. 1301 01:10:01.210 --> 01:10:05.170 So what I'm saying is, The essentials are the very 1302 01:10:05.250 --> 01:10:08.670 things that the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed is laying out. Do you 1303 01:10:08.710 --> 01:10:12.329 have a problem with creedal Christianity or laying out essentials? 1304 01:10:12.409 --> 01:10:14.109 Because if that's the case, if you don't have a 1305 01:10:14.130 --> 01:10:16.899 problem with it, then you're making my case that there's 1306 01:10:16.939 --> 01:10:19.979 a historic church that has the power to delineate the boundaries. 1307 01:10:20.659 --> 01:10:21.760 How do you know the boundaries? 1308 01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:27.140 If the creed is clarifying and stating what the Bible says, 1309 01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:28.640 which is what you do with the Trinity. So you 1310 01:10:28.680 --> 01:10:29.020 had the. 1311 01:10:32.699 --> 01:10:36.760 At the earliest stage, people are just writing to Christians, 1312 01:10:36.859 --> 01:10:39.460 and they're just quoting the Bible. Eventually, they're dealing with critics, 1313 01:10:39.520 --> 01:10:42.439 and then they start using philosophy. And then later, they're 1314 01:10:42.479 --> 01:10:46.539 using philosophy to clarify things, and that's really good. 1315 01:10:46.579 --> 01:10:48.659 So what I'm saying, David, is if the Council of 1316 01:10:48.699 --> 01:10:51.819 Nicaea sees that they have the ability to anathematize and 1317 01:10:51.899 --> 01:10:54.970 kick out Arians, why would they not have that same 1318 01:10:55.029 --> 01:10:58.909 power if the Apostles give that authority to, when Paul 1319 01:10:58.930 --> 01:11:02.029 tells Corinthians, he says, you excommunicate that person for their 1320 01:11:02.069 --> 01:11:05.369 serious mistake and for their serious sin. Nicaea thought that 1321 01:11:05.409 --> 01:11:08.750 they have the same power to excommunicate the people teaching Arianism. 1322 01:11:08.850 --> 01:11:11.069 And every Arian would say, I'm just following the Bible, dude. 1323 01:11:11.090 --> 01:11:12.680 I'm just following what the New Testament, clearly the New 1324 01:11:12.689 --> 01:11:14.189 Testament teaches Jesus as the. 1325 01:11:14.140 --> 01:11:15.119 Father is greater, right? 1326 01:11:15.539 --> 01:11:19.960 Well, that's an interpretive difficulty that led to a massive 1327 01:11:20.000 --> 01:11:23.560 ecumenical council that says, if you're an Arian, you're out 1328 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:24.079 of the church. 1329 01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:24.760 Get out, bro. 1330 01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:28.109 So I'm just simply saying that Don't you think that 1331 01:11:28.189 --> 01:11:31.229 the true church would have the mark of being able 1332 01:11:31.329 --> 01:11:35.420 to anathematize people and thus your whole argument against Nicaea 2? 1333 01:11:35.420 --> 01:11:38.119 Whether you like Nicaea 2 or not, doesn't the true 1334 01:11:38.180 --> 01:11:40.000 church seemingly need to. 1335 01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:42.199 Have the ability to boot people and anathematize them? 1336 01:11:42.819 --> 01:11:46.640 I have no problem with anathematizing people. We see that 1337 01:11:46.680 --> 01:11:49.220 in the Bible, but we see the kinds of things... 1338 01:11:49.430 --> 01:11:51.989 that anathema would be for if you're adding something to 1339 01:11:52.029 --> 01:11:54.100 the gospel or if you're saying or if you're saying 1340 01:11:54.189 --> 01:11:56.319 uh jesus christ didn't come in the flesh. 1341 01:11:56.039 --> 01:11:57.680 Yeah but you're back in the question because we don't 1342 01:11:57.699 --> 01:12:00.319 they have a problem with the gospel is not. 1343 01:12:00.180 --> 01:12:02.039 Just if you if you say if you say jesus 1344 01:12:02.079 --> 01:12:04.119 where do you get this was created or something how 1345 01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:06.659 can you prove how can you when you said when 1346 01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:08.739 they go out they preach the gospel you listed three 1347 01:12:08.810 --> 01:12:11.170 things and i said well what about the trinity because 1348 01:12:11.210 --> 01:12:13.170 then you said well there's other things too how do 1349 01:12:13.210 --> 01:12:15.590 you delineate and where is the list of the basic 1350 01:12:15.609 --> 01:12:20.800 things that are necessary for the gospel So those would 1351 01:12:20.819 --> 01:12:22.180 be the requirements of the gospel, and then you have 1352 01:12:22.220 --> 01:12:24.439 other things that are clearly true according to the Bible. 1353 01:12:24.460 --> 01:12:27.220 You said those would be the things. What? 1354 01:12:27.319 --> 01:12:30.569 You want a definitive list of what? I think you 1355 01:12:30.590 --> 01:12:32.630 have the duty to give us a definitive list. If 1356 01:12:32.649 --> 01:12:34.670 you're the one arguing that, I just believe the gospel. 1357 01:12:34.689 --> 01:12:37.689 I absolutely don't have a definitive duty to give you 1358 01:12:37.710 --> 01:12:39.029 a list. I thought there was a definitive list of 1359 01:12:39.050 --> 01:12:41.850 the basics of the gospel. Is there a basics? Let's start. 1360 01:12:41.989 --> 01:12:47.020 God exists. God created the world. Hold on. So now 1361

01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:48.199 creation is part of the gospel. 1362 01:12:48.300 --> 01:12:51.050 Now creation is part of it. 1363 01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:53.729 Do the apostles always teach creation when they go out? 1364 01:12:55.449 --> 01:12:55.590 No. 1365 01:12:55.949 --> 01:12:58.390 They don't always mention creation. They believe it. They don't 1366 01:12:58.409 --> 01:12:58.930 always teach it. 1367 01:13:00.130 --> 01:13:02.430 Right. And again, I was not giving a complete list. 1368 01:13:02.449 --> 01:13:04.029 You asked for a complete list. I started giving a 1369 01:13:04.050 --> 01:13:04.729 complete list. 1370 01:13:04.770 --> 01:13:05.210 Oh my goodness. 1371 01:13:05.250 --> 01:13:07.989 Definitive list of what the essence of the gospel. You 1372 01:13:08.029 --> 01:13:09.390 said the essentials. What are the essentials? 1373 01:13:11.489 --> 01:13:11.609 What? 1374 01:13:11.630 --> 01:13:14.229 The essentials of believing in What, believing in Christianity? 1375 01:13:14.250 --> 01:13:17.229 You said the gospel, when they go out, that's what 1376 01:13:17.449 --> 01:13:20.550 is delineating us from the Pharisees. 1377 01:13:20.569 --> 01:13:22.850 Yeah, you can read Peter's sermons. You can read Paul's sermons. 1378 01:13:23.310 --> 01:13:26.020 They're obviously giving you the essentials of what it takes 1379 01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:26.520 to be a Christian. 1380 01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:28.520 So is it everything cited in the sermon? Because they 1381 01:13:28.539 --> 01:13:29.399 go way beyond that. 1382 01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:33.119 Do I need to understand Peter's Old Testament references when 1383 01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:34.859 he talks about stuff from Joel? 1384 01:13:36.060 --> 01:13:37.899 To become a Christian? I don't think so. 1385 01:13:37.939 --> 01:13:39.939 Well, you tell me because I'm asking you on your 1386 01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:40.140 list here. 1387 01:13:40.159 --> 01:13:41.699 Why would you be asking me? What? 1388 01:13:41.880 --> 01:13:45.300 Because you said that's only the essentials, bro. That's the gospel. 1389 01:13:45.340 --> 01:13:45.800 No, no. 1390 01:13:45.840 --> 01:13:48.539 You said we're Pharisees. I focus on the essentials. My goodness, 1391 01:13:48.619 --> 01:13:51.739 it's bad to focus on the essentials. Then tell me 1392 01:13:51.779 --> 01:13:56.430 what they are. The apostles focused on the essentials. If 1393 01:13:56.439 --> 01:13:58.649 they're preaching the same thing over and over again, they 1394 01:13:58.810 --> 01:14:00.409 obviously focused on the essentials. 1395 01:14:00.449 --> 01:14:02.050 And they are what? What a bunch of dopes, according 1396 01:14:02.090 --> 01:14:03.170 to Jay. And they are what? 1397 01:14:04.069 --> 01:14:07.279 All right, on this, back on the issue of how 1398 01:14:07.340 --> 01:14:11.659 I would get to, like, the, what? On the issue 1399 01:14:11.699 --> 01:14:15.100 of what, like, how someone would get to the true church. 1400 01:14:15.510 --> 01:14:19.329 The essentials of the gospel. The essentials of the gospel 1401 01:14:19.350 --> 01:14:20.250 would get you to the one true church? 1402 01:14:21.000 --> 01:14:25.399 I mean, as a Protestant evangelical, it should be like 1403 01:14:25.420 --> 01:14:27.739 the back of your hand. 1404 01:14:27.800 --> 01:14:31.779 I'm actually serious here. If you start off with a Bible, 1405 01:14:32.260 --> 01:14:36.409 how do you get to the one true church? You 1406 01:14:36.430 --> 01:14:38.149 don't read the Bible and it says join the Eastern 1407 01:14:38.189 --> 01:14:42.010 Orthodox Church. You don't do that. Sincere question. 1408 01:14:42.229 --> 01:14:42.649 I don't know. 1409 01:14:42.710 --> 01:14:45.000 How do you get to that? And know that you're 1410 01:14:45.020 --> 01:14:46.060 right and you're in the one true church. 1411 01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:48.619 Well, I mean, most people that come to it come 1412 01:14:48.659 --> 01:14:51.649 to it through study and investigation of all kinds of things. 1413 01:14:51.670 --> 01:14:52.989 It could be history. 1414 01:14:53.090 --> 01:14:55.340 Not recently. Most people who come to it are like, oh, 1415 01:14:55.390 --> 01:14:57.550 it's masculine. Let me go to a masculine church. And 1416 01:14:57.569 --> 01:15:00.149 they convert for the same reason. For the same reason 1417 01:15:00.770 --> 01:15:01.970 they follow Andrew Tate. 1418 01:15:01.989 --> 01:15:03.840 That's in our favor. And the same reason Andrew Tate 1419 01:15:03.850 --> 01:15:04.680 followed Islam. 1420 01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:07.140 It's so masculine. We don't want Skittles Church. So that's 1421 01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:17.060 actually in our favor. So thank you for making my arguments. Now, look, again, 1422 01:15:17.300 --> 01:15:20.500 so the point here is you could ask the question, 1423 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.279 it's a fair question to say, well, what knowledge of 1424 01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:27.369 theology is necessary for salvation? And I already conceded to 1425 01:15:27.409 --> 01:15:30.010 you that I don't think that everybody has the same 1426 01:15:30.390 --> 01:15:35.630 criteria of culpability based on not being exposed to, you know, 1427 01:15:35.649 --> 01:15:38.770 a lot of theology. Our Baptist grandmother doesn't have the 1428 01:15:38.810 --> 01:15:42.600 same culpability as James White, who's been debating this stuff. 1429 01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:44.020 Forever from our vantage point, right? 1430 01:15:44.819 --> 01:15:46.880 But that has nothing to do with, as I gave 1431 01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.039 the example of the Old Testament, I mean, the Old Testament, 1432 01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:50.699 we believe in the harrowing of Hades. So when Jesus 1433 01:15:50.729 --> 01:15:52.699 went to Hades, he preached the gospel to all of 1434 01:15:52.770 --> 01:15:55.350 the dead. So in our position, the harrowing of Hades, which, 1435 01:15:55.390 --> 01:15:57.590 by the way, is really only maintained in the

Orthodox Church, 1436 01:15:57.609 --> 01:15:59.260 the Roman Catholics kind of give verbal credence to it, 1437 01:15:59.289 --> 01:16:02.649 but we think God's perfectly fair and will make it 1438 01:16:03.250 --> 01:16:05.869 clear and open to everybody in their own possible ways. 1439 01:16:06.109 --> 01:16:10.470 Okay, so if this is the one true church, in 1440 01:16:10.489 --> 01:16:13.430 other words, you've got people all over the place, If 1441 01:16:13.489 --> 01:16:15.989 this is the one true church, I'm still asking, how 1442 01:16:16.069 --> 01:16:20.319 do you recognize that as the one true church? You're 1443 01:16:20.340 --> 01:16:23.930 just a regular person. You decide to follow Christ. We 1444 01:16:23.939 --> 01:16:29.460 can understand there's different levels of culpability. But like a person, hey, 1445 01:16:29.500 --> 01:16:30.300 I want to follow Christ. 1446 01:16:30.340 --> 01:16:32.140 How does it get to that? 1447 01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:36.010 Today's argumentation was that when you look at the origin 1448 01:16:36.020 --> 01:16:38.270 of the Bible or when you look at the early church, 1449 01:16:38.310 --> 01:16:41.130 when you look at the earliest creed, every Protestant eventually, 1450 01:16:41.189 --> 01:16:43.510 most of them, gets to be familiar with this idea 1451 01:16:43.529 --> 01:16:45.649 of the Nicene Creed and they hear about Athanasius. I 1452 01:16:45.689 --> 01:16:47.529 heard about that like the second year I was a 1453 01:16:47.550 --> 01:16:49.430 Christian or evangelical. 1454 01:16:49.449 --> 01:16:52.850 So when you are given that light or that information.... 1455 01:16:55.159 --> 01:16:57.880 Then you become more and more culpable, and you say, well, 1456 01:16:58.500 --> 01:16:59.260 what is the church? 1457 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:01.180 Is there a church? Is there one? 1458 01:17:01.239 --> 01:17:04.899 Does it have any ability to define its limits and 1459 01:17:05.300 --> 01:17:08.399 delineate who's in and who's out? But if we had 1460 01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:11.390 your position, there is no way to delineate who's in 1461 01:17:11.409 --> 01:17:12.829 and who's out because you can't even tell me what 1462 01:17:12.850 --> 01:17:13.909 the basics of the gospel are. 1463 01:17:15.550 --> 01:17:19.260 Let me put this a little differently. Um, I don't 1464 01:17:19.279 --> 01:17:23.939 even know where someone would be, where you'd supposedly start, 1465 01:17:24.140 --> 01:17:27.000 because you can't just start with the Bible. You don't 1466 01:17:27.039 --> 01:17:29.699 even know what the Bible is without the church to 1467 01:17:29.739 --> 01:17:32.439 affirm it, but how do you know what the church 1468 01:17:32.720 --> 01:17:35.680 is to affirm this Bible? Where do you even start? 1469 01:17:35.779 --> 01:17:37.689 But the fact that you lack the knowledge of something 1470 01:17:37.729 --> 01:17:39.859 has nothing to do with whether that thing is true 1471 01:17:39.890 --> 01:17:42.210 or

false. If I was a Christian in the year 200, 1472 01:17:42.189 --> 01:17:47.899 and I was in Corinth And I was investigating the 1473 01:17:47.920 --> 01:17:50.859 various groups that claim to be, you know, of the 1474 01:17:50.899 --> 01:17:52.939 true God. It could be the Jews. There could be 1475 01:17:53.659 --> 01:17:56.579 pagan groups that believe in a God or deity. And 1476 01:17:56.720 --> 01:17:59.800 if you, again, there's an example of this at that 1477 01:17:59.840 --> 01:18:03.140 very time where Irenaeus says, as the Bishop of Lyon 1478 01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:05.760 in 180, he says, there are all kinds of things 1479 01:18:05.779 --> 01:18:08.310 that we would say are indicators of the true church. 1480 01:18:08.920 --> 01:18:11.640 He lists, for example, an early rule of faith or 1481 01:18:11.659 --> 01:18:13.840 an idea of the things that you could point to. 1482 01:18:14.180 --> 01:18:15.819 One of those things, I did not say the only 1483 01:18:15.859 --> 01:18:18.279 thing is apostolic succession. I said one of the things 1484 01:18:18.300 --> 01:18:21.130 that he points to is the succession of the bishops 1485 01:18:21.310 --> 01:18:21.989 at the Church of. 1486 01:18:22.010 --> 01:18:25.270 Rome from Peter. Wait, so you have to know that, right? 1487 01:18:25.289 --> 01:18:25.810 Apostolic succession. 1488 01:18:25.829 --> 01:18:27.229 You have to know the succession. 1489 01:18:27.470 --> 01:18:30.310 One thing, he also, no, he's just saying if you're 1490 01:18:30.409 --> 01:18:32.590 interested in identifying what the true church is. 1491 01:18:32.569 --> 01:18:35.060 Well, I mean, every Christian should be interested in identifying 1492 01:18:35.079 --> 01:18:36.500 the true church. I'm just saying, how do you do that? 1493 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:36.619 Right. 1494 01:18:37.470 --> 01:18:40.050 I'm telling you right now how the historical examples tell 1495 01:18:40.069 --> 01:18:40.550 you to do that. 1496 01:18:40.569 --> 01:18:42.250 So you study the apostolic succession. 1497 01:18:42.270 --> 01:18:45.350 Well, how about the first... Now, look, most Protestants would 1498 01:18:45.369 --> 01:18:50.390 agree with Nicaea, right? Okay, so if the Nicene Creed publishes... 1499 01:18:50.180 --> 01:18:53.819 these statements about the necessities of doctrine, doesn't it sound 1500 01:18:53.880 --> 01:18:56.640 like those people at that time thought that they had 1501 01:18:56.659 --> 01:18:59.380 the ability to define the delineations of who's in and 1502 01:18:59.399 --> 01:18:59.739 who's out? 1503 01:19:00.520 --> 01:19:04.130 So if you were starting... No, I'm going. If you're 1504 01:19:04.149 --> 01:19:06.869 starting off and you want to follow Christ, you'd eventually 1505 01:19:06.909 --> 01:19:11.119 get to the Council of Nicaea. and you'd study that 1506 01:19:11.140 --> 01:19:11.960 and learn about that. 1507 01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:14.859 Again, it sounds like you're just asking it. 1508 01:19:15.020 --> 01:19:17.619 Is it okay to start with the Bible? 1509 01:19:17.649 --> 01:19:19.710 How does invincible ignorance have anything to do with whether 1510 01:19:19.750 --> 01:19:21.869 there is or is not one true church? 1511 01:19:21.890 --> 01:19:25.109 That's not. If you're trying to get to somewhere, I'm 1512 01:19:25.130 --> 01:19:27.529 saying because it looks like this. Suppose you just start 1513 01:19:27.550 --> 01:19:31.800 with the Bible, and you say, okay, what's. 1514 01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:33.000 The true church? What's the true church out there? 1515 01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:34.880 But you also need to know church history. 1516 01:19:36.319 --> 01:19:38.779 You would say the same thing to a Muslim who says, 1517 01:19:39.420 --> 01:19:42.300 I started reading the Quran and the Quran immediately tells 1518 01:19:42.340 --> 01:19:44.060 me about the God of Abraham, blah, blah, blah, blah. 1519 01:19:44.119 --> 01:19:46.279 And you would say, when you go into the scholarship 1520 01:19:46.319 --> 01:19:47.770 and the history, you find out that the Quran is 1521 01:19:47.810 --> 01:19:49.930 full of errors and the Quran is a late thing. 1522 01:19:49.989 --> 01:19:52.810 And it's, you know, we're talking about, you know, the 1523 01:19:52.850 --> 01:19:54.229 days of St. John of Damascus. Well. 1524 01:19:54.819 --> 01:19:57.260 That's part and parcel of how you would go into 1525 01:19:57.340 --> 01:19:59.159 refuting the error of Islam. 1526 01:19:59.239 --> 01:20:00.460 I'm just simply saying the same thing. 1527 01:20:00.479 --> 01:20:04.119 Yeah, that's the same way that I refute Protestant Islamism, 1528 01:20:04.159 --> 01:20:06.689 which is evangelicalism, is to go back to the early 1529 01:20:06.710 --> 01:20:07.270 church fathers. 1530 01:20:07.409 --> 01:20:10.109 Yeah, well, I mean, it's very easy to refute Islam. 1531 01:20:10.170 --> 01:20:13.649 It's very easy to refute evangelicalism. It takes a few seconds. 1532 01:20:13.930 --> 01:20:17.630 But if you wanted to identify the true church, when 1533 01:20:17.649 --> 01:20:20.090 you have multiple churches claiming to be the true church. 1534 01:20:20.270 --> 01:20:22.789 One, holy, Catholic, apostolic, are the marks. That's what I'm arguing. 1535 01:20:22.909 --> 01:20:26.479 Yeah, so how many PhDs in theology and church history 1536 01:20:26.500 --> 01:20:28.779 do you need before you would like the, oh, this 1537 01:20:28.859 --> 01:20:30.020 is as clear as day? 1538 01:20:30.119 --> 01:20:36.060 I mean, there were millions of peasants for the first four, five, six, 1539 01:20:36.100 --> 01:20:39.350 seven centuries could easily identify this church without PhDs, and 1540 01:20:39.369 --> 01:20:41.510 they couldn't even read. What about in the 11th century? 1541 01:20:41.550 --> 01:20:44.069 What about in the 11th century? What about today? You 1542 01:20:44.090 --> 01:20:45.939 know how a lot of them learned the theology? 1543 01:20:46.800 --> 01:20:47.319 Icons. 1544

01:20:49.199 --> 01:20:49.340 Yeah. 1545 01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:58.319 I don't know what you guys are cheering for. That 1546 01:20:58.359 --> 01:21:00.770 was the position of Gregory the Great, who said we 1547 01:21:00.869 --> 01:21:03.609 use this to educate people and to help educate the illiterate. 1548 01:21:03.649 --> 01:21:07.029 And he was anathematized by Nicaea too for saying that 1549 01:21:07.069 --> 01:21:07.590 it's just. 1550 01:21:08.069 --> 01:21:10.949 It's if you only use them for that and not 1551 01:21:11.029 --> 01:21:13.689 also for their veneration because they're holy and by the way... 1552 01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:16.840 the Seventh Ecumenical Council, and it's iconoclast, you don't even 1553 01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:19.720 have the iconoclast position. Iconoclasts believe in the real presence, 1554 01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:22.380 and they would venerate the cross. 1555 01:21:22.399 --> 01:21:24.539 So you're not even an iconoclast. 1556 01:21:24.659 --> 01:21:28.079 They believed almost everything you believe except venerating icons. But 1557 01:21:28.159 --> 01:21:33.100 I'm saying they venerated the cross and the Eucharist, so 1558 01:21:33.119 --> 01:21:34.800 you're not even an iconoclast according to them. 1559 01:21:34.840 --> 01:21:36.800 You don't even have any of their positions. 1560 01:21:37.279 --> 01:21:38.880 I'm trying to figure out how to get. 1561 01:21:40.600 --> 01:21:43.289 If you think I'm joking here, I still to this 1562 01:21:43.329 --> 01:21:47.890 day have no idea. If you've got multiple churches claiming 1563 01:21:47.930 --> 01:21:50.250 to be the true church... Well, that's a you problem. 1564 01:21:50.270 --> 01:21:52.250 That's a you problem. That's a problem of your own incredulity. 1565 01:21:52.329 --> 01:21:54.710 And they split in multiple directions. 1566 01:21:54.789 --> 01:21:58.409 Bro, the Protestants split every day. What are you talking about? 1567 01:21:58.430 --> 01:22:01.149 There's like a thousand different Protestant groups as we drove 1568 01:22:01.180 --> 01:22:02.100 down here. 1569 01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:05.619 I'm not complaining. Right now, I'm not complaining about the splitting. 1570 01:22:05.720 --> 01:22:07.840 You said we were the most schismatic, dude. I just 1571 01:22:07.859 --> 01:22:10.020 drove past a thousand Protestant churches. 1572 01:22:10.180 --> 01:22:12.439 If you were trying to identify which of the churches 1573 01:22:12.479 --> 01:22:13.779 that claim to be the true church is the one 1574 01:22:13.810 --> 01:22:15.789 true church, you have to look at the reasons why 1575 01:22:15.829 --> 01:22:16.270 they split. 1576 01:22:16.470 --> 01:22:18.989 How about the one that put the Bible together? 1577 01:22:19.010 --> 01:22:22.470 You have to understand who was right and who was wrong, 1578 01:22:22.670 --> 01:22:24.710 and you have to get the answer right. And you 1579 01:22:24.750 --> 01:22:26.930 have to look at each time the church split over something. 1580 01:22:27.130 --> 01:22:29.930 You have to examine that, and you have to know enough. 1581 01:22:30.550 --> 01:22:34.470 philosophy and theology and church history to get it right, 1582 01:22:34.550 --> 01:22:37.479 and then you eventually end up at the one true 1583 01:22:37.600 --> 01:22:40.399 church somehow. Or you can just go eeny, meeny, miny, 1584 01:22:40.420 --> 01:22:41.699 moe and hope that you get it right. 1585 01:22:41.779 --> 01:22:44.640 The opening statement was a very simple argument that the 1586 01:22:44.819 --> 01:22:48.199 one true church would be identified by the church that 1587 01:22:48.260 --> 01:22:51.270 put that 4th century Bible together, East and West, that 1588 01:22:51.279 --> 01:22:53.430 I argued in the opening statement, the one that produced 1589 01:22:53.449 --> 01:22:54.350 the Niceno-Constantinople Decree. 1590 01:22:54.369 --> 01:22:56.470 You guys don't even have a closed canon. You have 1591 01:22:56.489 --> 01:22:59.220 different canons in... You have different canons in the Eastern 1592 01:22:59.239 --> 01:23:01.380 Orthodox Church. Why do you have a problem with that? What? 1593 01:23:01.699 --> 01:23:02.800 Why do you have a problem with that? I'm saying 1594 01:23:02.819 --> 01:23:03.859 I'm having a problem with that. You don't even know 1595 01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:04.939 what the canon is? You're saying you need us for 1596 01:23:04.979 --> 01:23:06.739 the canon. You don't have a canon. If I come 1597 01:23:06.760 --> 01:23:08.699 to you and I say, dude. You got no canon, dude. 1598 01:23:08.739 --> 01:23:10.949 I prayed really hard. The canon misfired in the Eastern 1599 01:23:10.970 --> 01:23:11.390 Orthodox Church. 1600 01:23:11.409 --> 01:23:13.590 I prayed really hard, and there's one gospel, and it's 1601 01:23:13.630 --> 01:23:15.649 two epistles, and that's the Bible. 1602 01:23:15.670 --> 01:23:17.270 I pray really hard about it. He has no way 1603 01:23:17.310 --> 01:23:19.729 to say that's wrong. You have no canon. You don't 1604 01:23:19.750 --> 01:23:21.090 have a canon. Of course I do. 1605 01:23:21.310 --> 01:23:23.350 If I want an official closed canon, I have to 1606 01:23:23.369 --> 01:23:25.119 go to the Catholics. So why in the name of 1607 01:23:25.159 --> 01:23:26.140 common sense wouldn't I go to them? 1608 01:23:26.159 --> 01:23:26.579 It's not even true. 1609 01:23:26.619 --> 01:23:28.539 If I'm looking at all this, if I were doing 1610 01:23:28.560 --> 01:23:31.159 what I said, I'm looking now for the one true 1611 01:23:31.199 --> 01:23:33.789 church and saying, okay, holy and apostolic and apostolic. 1612 01:23:33.409 --> 01:23:33.939 Succession and so on. 1613 01:23:33.949 --> 01:23:36.970 This is a diversion. Hey, they've got a closed canon. 1614 01:23:37.010 --> 01:23:38.369 These guys still haven't figured it out. 1615 01:23:38.649 --> 01:23:41.460 And a bunch of them still don't think Revelation is 1616 01:23:41.500 --> 01:23:44.020 part of the

canon. The Seventh Ecumenical Council confirmed that 1617 01:23:44.079 --> 01:23:47.079 the normative canon for the church is what Trollo laid 1618 01:23:47.199 --> 01:23:50.380 out from the Carthaginian synods, and that includes the Deuterocanon. 1619 01:23:50.399 --> 01:23:52.159 So that's normative for the Orthodox Church. So why do 1620 01:23:52.199 --> 01:23:52.970 you have different canons? 1621 01:23:52.979 --> 01:23:57.010 If there's a church that has an extra Deuterocanonical text, 1622 01:23:57.109 --> 01:23:58.789 we don't make a big deal about it because we 1623 01:23:58.810 --> 01:24:00.010 don't have a sola scriptura of you. 1624 01:24:00.050 --> 01:24:02.470 It's not a problem for us. Oh, okay. So it's fine. 1625 01:24:02.529 --> 01:24:03.270 It's fine to have differences. 1626 01:24:03.979 --> 01:24:06.100 If I don't believe in Sola Scriptura, it's not a problem. 1627 01:24:06.119 --> 01:24:08.520 It's fine to have differences about the canon of Scripture. 1628 01:24:08.569 --> 01:24:09.930 You don't have a way to tell us what the 1629 01:24:09.970 --> 01:24:11.109 essential differences are. 1630 01:24:11.869 --> 01:24:15.250 It's okay to disagree about the canon of Scripture and 1631 01:24:15.289 --> 01:24:15.909 not have a canon. 1632 01:24:16.029 --> 01:24:16.550 That's great. 1633 01:24:16.710 --> 01:24:19.090 A Deuterocanonical book is not essential, and I have a 1634 01:24:19.109 --> 01:24:21.069 way to delineate what is and isn't essential. 1635 01:24:21.220 --> 01:24:22.640 You don't have that. You can't even tell me what 1636 01:24:22.659 --> 01:24:23.619 the gospel basics are. 1637 01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:27.060 Dude, tell me something when you get a canon, dude. 1638 01:24:29.060 --> 01:24:29.340 Oh, man. 1639 01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:29.960 Okay. 1640 01:24:31.000 --> 01:24:34.699 The example is not relevant because it's a Deuterocanonical text 1641 01:24:34.739 --> 01:24:37.770 that a Russian Slavonic Bible might have that's an extra book. 1642 01:24:37.930 --> 01:24:41.050 It's not relevant to what the canonical positions about the 1643 01:24:41.090 --> 01:24:43.729 delineations of the church are. So, for example, there might 1644 01:24:43.770 --> 01:24:46.289 be a tradition that thinks that the book of Enoch 1645 01:24:46.350 --> 01:24:49.300 has valid tradition in it. It's not part of the canon, 1646 01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:51.279 but if I don't believe in Sola Scriptura, I can 1647 01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:53.560 accept the tradition in the Protoevangelium of James. 1648 01:24:54.899 --> 01:24:57.399 Well, that's great. So I guess just pick and choose. 1649 01:24:57.420 --> 01:25:00.500 Pick and choose your own canon because there's no closed canon. No, 1650 01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:01.880 it's not my own canon. 1651 01:25:01.979 --> 01:25:06.050 It's the essentials versus the things that are not essential. 1652 01:25:06.090 --> 01:25:06.939 The essentials? 1653 01:25:07.409 --> 01:25:07.670 What? 1654 01:25:08.529 --> 01:25:10.710 I thought it was stupid and silly to focus on 1655 01:25:10.750 --> 01:25:11.369 the essentials. 1656 01:25:11.390 --> 01:25:15.350 We have a way to identify and delineate essentials. He 1657 01:25:15.409 --> 01:25:17.850 still can't tell us what the basics of the gospel are. 1658 01:25:18.970 --> 01:25:21.069 Of course I can tell you the basics of the gospel. 1659 01:25:21.430 --> 01:25:21.670 Really? 1660 01:25:21.750 --> 01:25:22.560 You could even list them. 1661 01:25:23.460 --> 01:25:25.060 I can't list the basics of the gospel? 1662 01:25:25.340 --> 01:25:26.880 No. 1663 01:25:26.979 --> 01:25:27.539 You tried. 1664 01:25:27.720 --> 01:25:33.750 We're waiting. Try it, please. 1665 01:25:34.149 --> 01:25:37.409 Just one second. When I was saying I focus on 1666 01:25:37.970 --> 01:25:40.109 the essentials, things that are obviously. 1667 01:25:39.729 --> 01:25:40.050 True, it. 1668 01:25:41.819 --> 01:25:46.329 Just is, bro. This is T-Dub level. We're asking you 1669 01:25:46.369 --> 01:25:47.029 what is obvious. 1670 01:25:47.310 --> 01:25:49.609 So you look at the apostles. Jesus died on the 1671 01:25:49.630 --> 01:25:52.649 cross for sins. He rose from the dead. He's Lord. 1672 01:25:52.670 --> 01:25:53.670 Okay. 1673 01:25:53.930 --> 01:25:54.550 Submit to him. 1674 01:25:54.569 --> 01:25:55.250 He rose from the dead. 1675 01:25:55.329 --> 01:25:59.140 As far as accepting the gospel, that's what's required. That's 1676 01:25:59.180 --> 01:26:00.920 not all you would have to believe as a Christian. 1677 01:26:00.939 --> 01:26:02.840 You said the Trinity. Yeah. I said that's not all 1678 01:26:02.880 --> 01:26:05.319 you would have to believe as a Christian. Is that 1679 01:26:05.359 --> 01:26:06.039 not the essentials? 1680 01:26:07.220 --> 01:26:08.739 If you're saying there's all this stuff that you have 1681 01:26:08.779 --> 01:26:10.840 to believe, then what, the people converting in the book 1682 01:26:10.880 --> 01:26:13.539 of Acts based on what the apostles are preaching just 1683 01:26:13.600 --> 01:26:16.560 weren't Christians? This is why this is so weird. In 1684 01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:19.010 the book of Acts, you'll notice. You look at what 1685 01:26:19.029 --> 01:26:21.409 you're saying, and hey, I want to follow Christ. I 1686 01:26:21.710 --> 01:26:24.350 look around me, and I'm in a minefield, and one 1687 01:26:24.489 --> 01:26:27.949 wrong step in the wrong direction blows me to anathema hell. 1688 01:26:28.729 --> 01:26:31.850 And does this sound like the church of the one 1689 01:26:31.909 --> 01:26:34.979 who said, come to me, all you who. 1690 01:26:34.899 --> 01:26:38.220 Are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest? 1691 01:26:38.260 --> 01:26:41.380 That was my experience becoming a Christian. 1692 01:26:41.399 --> 01:26:43.699 Rest. And it didn't turn out to be a nightmare 1693 01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:44.699 until 2026. 1694 01:26:44.699 --> 01:26:47.050 Go ahead, Jay. 1695 01:26:47.310 -->

01:26:47.590 What's that? 1696 01:26:48.649 --> 01:26:49.890 Go ahead, Jay. 1697 01:26:50.890 --> 01:26:52.470 I just want to keep the flow going. 1698 01:26:52.489 --> 01:26:53.229 We've got two minutes left. 1699 01:26:53.850 --> 01:26:55.989 When the apostles are out preaching in the book of Acts, 1700 01:26:56.010 --> 01:26:59.569 for example, we find Paul going out. We find Apollos, 1701 01:26:59.689 --> 01:27:02.520 and we find the disciples of John who had not 1702 01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:06.100 been fully instructed. Do the apostles and do Paul say, 1703 01:27:07.300 --> 01:27:10.199 Good job, dude. You got maybe some essentials. 1704 01:27:10.460 --> 01:27:12.079 DIY. Keep at it, bro. 1705 01:27:12.260 --> 01:27:15.850 No, they bring them under the Episcopate and they then 1706 01:27:15.939 --> 01:27:18.890 instruct them further. So this in the book of Acts 1707 01:27:18.970 --> 01:27:21.489 itself has already happened as a controversy. Go read about 1708 01:27:21.510 --> 01:27:23.069 it in the book of Acts. There's two great chapters 1709 01:27:23.090 --> 01:27:25.350 in the Orthodox Study Bible about this, in the notes even, 1710 01:27:25.710 --> 01:27:29.050 that discuss coming under the Episcopate. That's why Paul says, 1711 01:27:29.649 --> 01:27:32.890 I appointed elders in all of these churches in these cities. 1712 01:27:33.069 --> 01:27:35.470 You should all be of one heart and of one mind. Again, 1713 01:27:36.149 --> 01:27:39.029 It's not DIY. That itself refutes what he's trying to 1714 01:27:39.069 --> 01:27:39.409 argue here. 1715 01:27:40.010 --> 01:27:43.649 Yeah, and I mean, the model in the book of Acts, 1716 01:27:44.229 --> 01:27:47.529 and I mean, in the whole New Testament, you've got 1717 01:27:48.850 --> 01:27:53.920 elders and deacons, not this, you know, the bishops and 1718 01:27:53.939 --> 01:27:54.220 so on. 1719 01:27:54.420 --> 01:27:55.500 Where are your elders and deacons? 1720 01:27:55.520 --> 01:27:57.399 We do have to let the debaters, we're going to 1721 01:27:57.420 --> 01:27:59.640 let the debaters do the debating, so in the audience, 1722 01:27:59.680 --> 01:28:00.380 it needs you to hold back. 1723 01:28:00.819 --> 01:28:03.539 Yeah, quit being rude, guys. What I'm saying is, if 1724 01:28:03.560 --> 01:28:07.409 you say that's the model, and then you've got you've 1725 01:28:08.510 --> 01:28:13.149 added to that, then you'd have to be saying it's 1726 01:28:13.310 --> 01:28:16.460 okay with modifying this as long as you have the 1727 01:28:16.500 --> 01:28:18.640 general idea. Because if you just say this is the 1728 01:28:18.680 --> 01:28:20.159 way it has to be and we're apostolic and we 1729 01:28:20.199 --> 01:28:22.460 go back to that, well, that's not what you have. 1730 01:28:23.039 --> 01:28:23.699 That's not what you have. 1731 01:28:24.060 --> 01:28:24.819 It's been modified. 1732 01:28:24.920 --> 01:28:28.279 Is worshiping both the humanity and the divinity in the 1733 01:28:28.319 -->

01:28:29.699 incarnate Christ necessary? 1734 01:28:31.460 --> 01:28:31.960 How would I know? 1735 01:28:33.640 --> 01:28:37.210 Exactly. You have people. 1736 01:28:37.250 --> 01:28:38.210 Let me break this down for you real quick. 1737 01:28:38.229 --> 01:28:40.720 So you see that these controversies at college... up, they 1738 01:28:40.729 --> 01:28:45.520 get decided what's necessary because it's an implication on the gospel, right? 1739 01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:46.760 And he doesn't even know. 1740 01:28:47.869 --> 01:28:51.149 If you look, they worship Jesus. So if you then 1741 01:28:51.229 --> 01:28:52.970 say to me, what does this mean? Are you doing 1742 01:28:52.989 --> 01:28:57.439 this or that? Every area. Every area. What Bible verse 1743 01:28:57.449 --> 01:29:00.640 gives the answer to that? What Bible verse gives the 1744 01:29:00.680 --> 01:29:03.180 answer to that? What Bible verse answers the question that 1745 01:29:03.199 --> 01:29:03.659 you just asked me? 1746 01:29:04.739 --> 01:29:09.220 Whether we worship the whole Christ? Whether you worship, what 1747 01:29:09.260 --> 01:29:11.109 were you saying? There's not a single Bible verse that 1748 01:29:11.149 --> 01:29:12.229 makes that clear. That's my point. 1749 01:29:13.010 --> 01:29:14.510 So you're saying the Bible doesn't make it clear? 1750 01:29:14.770 --> 01:29:14.949 Correct. 1751 01:29:15.390 --> 01:29:16.130 Okay. 1752 01:29:16.149 --> 01:29:18.130 But you can't tell me if that's an essential or not. 1753 01:29:20.020 --> 01:29:21.699 Where would you get the answer then if it's not 1754 01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:22.159 from the Bible? 1755 01:29:23.029 --> 01:29:24.729 It's a multitude of sources. 1756 01:29:25.109 --> 01:29:27.250 It's going to be the teaching of the church fathers 1757 01:29:27.609 --> 01:29:29.050 and the councils and the. 1758 01:29:28.989 --> 01:29:30.909 Bible and philosophical organizations. So the councils. 1759 01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:33.720 That's the problem. You guys have done this. When you say, 1760 01:29:33.800 --> 01:29:35.760 I have to go with this council, and I look 1761 01:29:36.279 --> 01:29:38.060 at your council, and you've got a council over here 1762 01:29:38.100 --> 01:29:39.779 that you say is also infallible and it's run by 1763 01:29:39.859 --> 01:29:43.880 Psycho Mom, I have to step back and say, okay, 1764 01:29:43.899 --> 01:29:46.800 when they say infallible, I can't just assume that it's 1765 01:29:47.149 --> 01:29:48.350 actually infallible. 1766 01:29:48.659 --> 01:29:51.270 Should I follow anything run by Psycho German Prince? 1767 01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:57.149 If someone seriously messed up, if you look at it 1768 01:29:57.159 --> 01:29:58.789 and you see that it's influenced what he said, I 1769 01:29:58.810 --> 01:29:59.090 would say no. 1770 01:29:59.109 --> 01:30:00.470 Oh, so now you do have to read and study 1771 01:30:00.510 --> 01:30:02.020 history to figure it out, which is the true and 1772 01:30:02.039

--> 01:30:02.300 the false. 1773 01:30:02.319 --> 01:30:06.989 I thought we didn't have to do that. If you're 1774 01:30:07.010 --> 01:30:08.630 the one saying, I have to go with this council, 1775 01:30:08.909 --> 01:30:09.449 and you say. 1776 01:30:09.470 --> 01:30:11.449 You just said, I have to figure out the conspiracies 1777 01:30:11.489 --> 01:30:15.710 of whether the princes are... Your culpability increases as you learn. Well, 1778 01:30:15.750 --> 01:30:18.590 if you don't know anything about Second Nicaea, you could say, yeah, 1779 01:30:18.609 --> 01:30:21.590 it's an infallible church council. The moment you start studying it, 1780 01:30:21.609 --> 01:30:23.350 you see problem after problem after problem. 1781 01:30:23.409 --> 01:30:25.770 Red flag after red flag after red flag. 1782 01:30:25.810 --> 01:30:29.170 And so you're more responsible for seeing the massive number 1783 01:30:29.210 --> 01:30:32.739 of problems? What about the Second Council of Nicaea is 1784 01:30:32.840 --> 01:30:34.840 not a problem? Every single step of the way, it's 1785 01:30:34.880 --> 01:30:35.359 a disaster. 1786 01:30:35.380 --> 01:30:38.359 David, is it possible that you, being new to this 1787 01:30:38.430 --> 01:30:41.890 and admittedly having problems in the past with interpreting things correctly, 1788 01:30:41.970 --> 01:30:44.789 are you perhaps interpreting Nicaea II incorrectly because you thought 1789 01:30:44.810 --> 01:30:47.789 that communicating meant talking verbally when they're talking about communion? 1790 01:30:47.930 --> 01:30:50.640 That's the way it's translated, man. That's the way it 1791 01:30:50.680 --> 01:30:52.560 is in the book. It says communicate with them. So 1792 01:30:52.579 --> 01:30:55.180 the answer is just what it says, bro. And guess what? 1793 01:30:55.340 --> 01:30:57.180 I just started studying this year. 1794 01:30:57.699 --> 01:31:01.020 When I read it and it says anyone who communicates 1795 01:31:01.079 --> 01:31:03.560 with them, and you didn't even correct it yesterday. Someone 1796 01:31:03.579 --> 01:31:05.520 had to email you and tell you, hey, no, it 1797 01:31:05.579 --> 01:31:08.310 actually means communion or something. Totally fine with that. I 1798 01:31:08.329 --> 01:31:11.210 would stand corrected. Now, deal with the issue. 1799 01:31:11.590 --> 01:31:16.470 My goodness, infallible church council? I mean, why do you 1800 01:31:16.489 --> 01:31:17.869 have a problem with that? How can you say that 1801 01:31:17.930 --> 01:31:18.449 that's wrong? 1802 01:31:19.800 --> 01:31:22.600 How can I say it's wrong? Well, one, it flat 1803 01:31:22.640 --> 01:31:28.180 out contradicts the Acts 15 church in multiple ways. Adding 1804 01:31:28.220 --> 01:31:31.619 something to the gospel? They said don't believe it. They 1805 01:31:31.649 --> 01:31:32.640 said don't believe it. 1806 01:31:32.670 --> 01:31:35.609 But by your own definition, Acts 15 and the ruling 1807 01:31:35.689 --> 01:31:38.810 would add things to the gospel, which was your basic list. 1808 01:31:39.029 --> 01:31:41.510 So Acts 15 is actually being a Pharisee. 1809 01:31:41.829 --> 01:31:42.989 What's added to the gospel? 1810 01:31:43.569 --> 01:31:43.710 What? 1811 01:31:43.729 --> 01:31:44.489 I didn't understand that. 1812 01:31:44.510 --> 01:31:47.180 They made the ruling that for Gentile converts to come 1813 01:31:47.189 --> 01:31:49.800 into the church, they have to basically keep the basic 1814 01:31:49.840 --> 01:31:52.920 principles of the Noahic covenant. So where was that in 1815 01:31:52.960 --> 01:31:55.319 the gospel for the priest? That was not taught. That 1816 01:31:55.340 --> 01:31:57.779 was a decision that the council made and then bound 1817 01:31:57.819 --> 01:31:58.380 the churches to. 1818 01:31:58.399 --> 01:32:01.859 No, if you look at that, you can either say 1819 01:32:01.899 --> 01:32:03.699 Paul is wrong, you can say Paul is right. Paul 1820 01:32:03.739 --> 01:32:05.779 interprets that because Paul doesn't have a problem with eating 1821 01:32:05.810 --> 01:32:08.529 a food sacrificed to an idol. It hasn't done anything 1822 01:32:08.550 --> 01:32:10.590 to the idol. He thinks that's a matter of not 1823 01:32:10.949 --> 01:32:13.729 going against people's conscience. There it seems like something to 1824 01:32:13.810 --> 01:32:16.430 avoid divisions with people who have. 1825 01:32:16.510 --> 01:32:17.390 That's not Acts 15. 1826 01:32:17.390 --> 01:32:20.529 Acts 15 is talking about Gentile converts coming into the church. 1827 01:32:20.590 --> 01:32:22.689 Yeah, but Paul gives this understanding of that. Paul doesn't 1828 01:32:22.710 --> 01:32:24.930 think it's a problem eating food sacrificed to an idol. 1829 01:32:24.949 --> 01:32:26.970 So you can say Paul's off in left field and 1830 01:32:26.989 --> 01:32:29.350 he's going against the apostles. I would interpret what they 1831 01:32:29.369 --> 01:32:31.949 said in light of Paul's explanation of why there was 1832 01:32:31.989 --> 01:32:32.270 a rule. 1833 01:32:32.569 --> 01:32:34.409 Well, I don't think I would pit Paul against the 1834 01:32:34.439 --> 01:32:36.060 other apostles, but if you want to say. 1835 01:32:36.079 --> 01:32:38.500 You just did. You're doing it. No, you did that. 1836 01:32:38.539 --> 01:32:39.840 I didn't make that argument. You did. 1837 01:32:40.119 --> 01:32:42.880 I'm saying that the ruling of the Acts 15 Synod 1838 01:32:42.920 --> 01:32:47.760 says that the reception of Gentile converts is by the 1839 01:32:48.020 --> 01:32:50.989 decision of the Holy Spirit. And by the way, Paul 1840 01:32:51.010 --> 01:32:53.130 does at times say that this is my own personal 1841 01:32:53.170 --> 01:32:55.310 opinion and not the Holy Spirit. So even within Paul's letters, 1842 01:32:55.350 --> 01:32:57.510 there can be distinctions of things that are his personal 1843 01:32:58.029 --> 01:33:00.010 ideas versus the teaching of Christ himself. 1844 01:33:00.109 -->

01:33:00.890 But again. 1845 01:33:01.520 --> 01:33:03.399 Don't you think that it would be normative for the 1846 01:33:03.460 --> 01:33:07.239 church that has councils to then also continue to have 1847 01:33:07.300 --> 01:33:09.829 councils and synods? And didn't Jesus promise the Holy Spirit 1848 01:33:09.850 --> 01:33:10.289 to the church? 1849 01:33:10.970 --> 01:33:11.630 Is that in history? 1850 01:33:11.789 --> 01:33:13.229 I'll give you a chance to respond, David, and then 1851 01:33:13.250 --> 01:33:14.710 we've got to wrap up on the open dialogue. 1852 01:33:15.470 --> 01:33:18.710 Yeah, I mean, there'd be a significant difference between later 1853 01:33:18.750 --> 01:33:22.430 councils because here you have the apostles and the elders. 1854 01:33:22.590 --> 01:33:25.050 What's the cutoff point of when the church fell away? 1855 01:33:25.090 --> 01:33:26.489 I don't have a problem with councils. I have a 1856 01:33:26.529 --> 01:33:29.380 problem with councils that are clearly wrong or run by 1857 01:33:29.409 --> 01:33:33.819 psychomoms or that contradict the Scripture. That's when I have 1858 01:33:33.840 --> 01:33:35.619 a problem with counsel. If you have a counsel that 1859 01:33:35.659 --> 01:33:38.680 is completely in line with the Scripture, zero problem with it. 1860 01:33:38.760 --> 01:33:43.689 Or a counsel that's supposed to refute a heresy that arises, 1861 01:33:43.750 --> 01:33:44.989 you definitely need that. 1862 01:33:45.130 --> 01:33:47.750 All kinds of new issues arise. Now we do need counsels. 1863 01:33:47.930 --> 01:33:50.069 Now we do need that. It's great to have counsels. 1864 01:33:50.090 --> 01:33:51.710 What are you talking about? I'm not against counsels. 1865 01:33:51.789 --> 01:33:56.779 I'm against treating them as infallible when they're clearly wrong. 1866 01:33:57.619 --> 01:34:01.039 And if the price of admission to the one true 1867 01:34:01.079 --> 01:34:04.659 church is looking at the Council of Psychomom and saying, hey, 1868 01:34:04.880 --> 01:34:08.149 every possible way I can look at this, it's fallible, 1869 01:34:08.170 --> 01:34:09.550 therefore it's infallible. 1870 01:34:09.689 --> 01:34:11.710 Come down to the Billy Graham Council. We're going to 1871 01:34:11.729 --> 01:34:13.689 have a council of all the Baptists. We're going to 1872 01:34:13.710 --> 01:34:14.869 give you hot cheese pizza. 1873 01:34:15.210 --> 01:34:16.989 Who does the councils in the Protestant world? 1874 01:34:17.010 --> 01:34:19.340 This might be a good time to go to the 1875 01:34:19.380 --> 01:34:21.260 next segment, which is rebuttals. So we have a second 1876 01:34:21.300 --> 01:34:24.619 round of rebuttals. You guys have a chance to draw 1877 01:34:24.659 --> 01:34:27.979 together some of the threads from that open discussion. And 1878 01:34:28.060 --> 01:34:30.859 I've got the timer set at seven minutes for you, Jay. 1879 01:34:30.899 --> 01:34:31.920 The floor is all yours. 1880 01:34:34.539 --> 01:34:37.329 Yeah, I'd like to go back to, again, a lot 1881 01:34:37.350 --> 01:34:39.489 of the key points that were brought up. 1882 01:34:40.590 --> 01:34:41.109 Is this. 1883 01:34:42.590 --> 01:34:44.390 Rebuttal or closing? I forget which one this is. 1884 01:34:45.069 --> 01:34:47.529 This is still rebuttal. Right after we'll have closings. 1885 01:34:48.449 --> 01:34:48.840 Yeah, okay. 1886 01:34:48.859 --> 01:34:51.260 So on this point where we left off here with 1887 01:34:52.520 --> 01:34:55.979 the idea that now councils and synods are a good 1888 01:34:56.079 --> 01:34:58.810 idea and they can be a corrective to the church 1889 01:34:58.850 --> 01:35:02.010 you notice earlier in the discussion he said that the 1890 01:35:02.069 --> 01:35:06.010 protestants could be a valuable source for reforming and helping 1891 01:35:06.050 --> 01:35:09.149 the church because there's no internal mechanism for the church 1892 01:35:09.510 --> 01:35:13.029 to reform itself the entire history of the orthodox church 1893 01:35:13.430 --> 01:35:15.630 the church of the first thousand years where rome and 1894 01:35:15.989 --> 01:35:20.439 orthodoxy were together is a church beset with both controversies 1895 01:35:20.739 --> 01:35:23.779 and synods and councils as the normative means of dealing 1896 01:35:23.819 --> 01:35:28.529 with this. The Protestant Reformation initially wanted to, in the 1897 01:35:28.569 --> 01:35:32.390 magisterial reformers, the classical reformers, continue and keep some of 1898 01:35:32.430 --> 01:35:36.750 these ideas of church governance and maintenance. Some of them 1899 01:35:36.810 --> 01:35:39.810 favored a kind of bishopric, high church Anglicans, etc., but 1900 01:35:39.909 --> 01:35:41.909 that church had a king as the head of it. 1901 01:35:41.970 --> 01:35:46.649 So the beginning of early Protestant period, it's entirely... state-funded 1902 01:35:46.729 --> 01:35:50.489 and state-run churches. And even in Calvin's Geneva, it was 1903 01:35:50.569 --> 01:35:55.189 a state-run theocracy where Calvin decides, oh, you know, Servetus 1904 01:35:55.210 --> 01:35:58.029 can be burned at the stake, etc. Luther decides the 1905 01:35:58.090 --> 01:36:01.829 Anabaptists deserve to be drowned because they don't teach infant baptism. 1906 01:36:02.430 --> 01:36:05.729 So you'll notice immediately the positions that he's trying to 1907 01:36:05.770 --> 01:36:10.960 defend historically have already borne out the insanity of DIY. 1908 01:36:11.000 --> 01:36:12.739 We're all going to try to figure it out together. 1909 01:36:12.840 --> 01:36:15.340 And by the way, We're so humble that we can't 1910 01:36:15.380 --> 01:36:18.060 actually understand these texts, but also you need us to 1911 01:36:18.119 --> 01:36:20.060 help tell you what to do and how to reform 1912 01:36:20.100 --> 01:36:23.479 because you're Pharisees and schismatics. There's nobody more schismatic than 1913 01:36:23.520 --> 01:36:25.420 the evangelical

non-denominational sects. 1914 01:36:25.739 --> 01:36:28.680 There's thousands of them. There's no normative authority. 1915 01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:31.979 I am not saying in this argument that normative authority 1916 01:36:32.340 --> 01:36:36.600 proves your church necessarily in terms of your own personal certitude. 1917 01:36:37.239 --> 01:36:41.779 You might have doubts. You might have disagreements, whatever. I'm saying... 1918 01:36:42.250 --> 01:36:45.649 One of the marks that would identify a true versus 1919 01:36:45.689 --> 01:36:48.369 false church, if you look at the history of the church, 1920 01:36:48.829 --> 01:36:51.939 would be the church that has the normative authority to 1921 01:36:52.020 --> 01:36:54.760 bind consciences. It seems to be at the root of 1922 01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:58.880 this is the Protestant problem with binding consciences. That's why 1923 01:36:58.899 --> 01:37:00.399 he says we're Pharisees. That's why he says you're adding 1924 01:37:00.420 --> 01:37:02.909 to the gospel. You're binding my conscience to things that 1925 01:37:03.050 --> 01:37:05.010 I don't like and I don't want to accept. which 1926 01:37:05.050 --> 01:37:09.300 goes back to the radical autonomy and atomized individualism of 1927 01:37:09.310 --> 01:37:12.579 the Protestant position. There's no reason to prefer Luther's state 1928 01:37:12.619 --> 01:37:16.039 church versus Calvin's state church. Those are state churches. Those 1929 01:37:16.079 --> 01:37:21.859 are state conspiracy churches. So problems that are the very 1930 01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:26.560 origins of Protestantism themselves are laughable when they become the 1931 01:37:26.720 --> 01:37:31.859 accusation against the KGB bishop or the ancient heretical emperor 1932 01:37:31.979 --> 01:37:36.270 or so-called heretical emperor. If emperors were controlling the church, 1933 01:37:36.380 --> 01:37:38.649 the Arian emperors would have destroyed it a long time ago. 1934 01:37:38.689 --> 01:37:41.300 There would have been an Arian Jesus a long time ago. 1935 01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:46.020 But this church has these marks. It continues to have 1936 01:37:46.060 --> 01:37:49.199 these marks. He doesn't even have a church that we 1937 01:37:49.220 --> 01:37:52.159 can identify with any marks. The only mark I could 1938 01:37:52.199 --> 01:37:56.180 get would be a strip mall. Like Pastor Randy Balls' 1939 01:37:56.199 --> 01:37:57.000 strip mall church. 1940 01:37:57.420 --> 01:37:57.819 Maybe. 1941 01:38:00.279 --> 01:38:02.439 Now, yes, some Orthodox churches are in strip malls, but 1942 01:38:02.479 --> 01:38:03.979 we're moving on to bigger stuff, right? 1943 01:38:05.430 --> 01:38:05.850 To be fair. 1944 01:38:07.069 --> 01:38:09.970 But look, anybody can start a denomination in that world. 1945 01:38:10.069 --> 01:38:15.239 Anybody can start a Protestant church. And that's why the 1946 01:38:16.159 --> 01:38:19.060 history is so crucial here, because the same disputes that 1947

01:38:19.079 --> 01:38:24.689 we're having have already happened. We already have the Vigilantiuses. 1948 01:38:24.729 --> 01:38:27.649 We already have the Helvidiuses and these various people that St. 1949 01:38:27.689 --> 01:38:30.619 Jerome wrote against who said, I don't like those relics. 1950 01:38:30.899 --> 01:38:32.819 I don't like images. I don't like Mary. I don't 1951 01:38:32.840 --> 01:38:33.720 like ever virginity. 1952 01:38:33.739 --> 01:38:36.140 I don't like this, that. All of these disputes have 1953 01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:36.619 already happened. 1954 01:38:36.640 --> 01:38:38.859 But wouldn't it be great if Jesus actually gave a 1955 01:38:39.020 --> 01:38:42.770 mechanism to the church to solve and deal with disputes? 1956 01:38:43.850 --> 01:38:44.850 Normative authority. 1957 01:38:45.489 --> 01:38:50.449 Normative authority doesn't give you certitude because yes, in some cases, 1958 01:38:50.770 --> 01:38:52.050 normative authority can make a mistake. 1959 01:38:52.170 --> 01:38:52.989 It can be wrong. 1960 01:38:53.630 --> 01:38:57.050 So the argument is not normative authority equals infallibility in 1961 01:38:57.130 --> 01:39:01.170 all cases. We restrict that to the entirety of the church, 1962 01:39:01.210 --> 01:39:03.090 the holistic conception of the church. 1963 01:39:03.770 --> 01:39:05.720 Rome thinks it's just the Pope. We don't think that. 1964 01:39:05.800 --> 01:39:08.119 We think it's the entirety of the body. That's why 1965 01:39:08.159 --> 01:39:11.500 for us, laity have a role. Laity do play a 1966 01:39:11.500 --> 01:39:13.220 key role in the church, more so than in the 1967 01:39:13.239 --> 01:39:16.869 Roman Catholic church, I would argue. And laity have in 1968 01:39:16.909 --> 01:39:19.909 many cases in history held bishops and priests accountable when 1969 01:39:19.930 --> 01:39:22.880 they made errors and fell into heresy. So all of 1970 01:39:22.909 --> 01:39:25.659 what's being argued is really just kind of low-tier stuff 1971 01:39:25.680 --> 01:39:28.920 that's evangelical slop that's not actually looking at the nuances 1972 01:39:28.960 --> 01:39:32.479 of church history. But there is no church history over here. 1973 01:39:32.760 --> 01:39:36.819 There is no mark of anything other than an arbitrary 1974 01:39:36.899 --> 01:39:40.079 sort of list of, well, this is the basics of 1975 01:39:40.119 --> 01:39:43.119 the gospel. I asked them to give one person within 1976 01:39:43.159 --> 01:39:46.439 church history, within the first nine centuries, that has this 1977 01:39:46.800 --> 01:39:49.279 sort of basic list of what the essentials of the 1978 01:39:49.319 --> 01:39:50.010 gospel was. 1979 01:39:50.930 --> 01:39:53.590 And you heard tonight that the essentials flipped and changed. 1980 01:39:53.609 --> 01:39:57.369 They went from, well, it's also maybe creation, and then 1981 01:39:57.430 --> 01:40:00.890 Peter taught a sermon, and Peter's sermons talks about all 1982 01:40:00.909 --> 01:40:04.449 kinds of things. Is all of that within the sermon essential? Well, 1983 01:40:04.510 --> 01:40:06.609 it's the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. What about 1984 01:40:06.630 --> 01:40:10.949 the ascension? Did he mention the ascension? I mean, the 1985 01:40:10.979 --> 01:40:15.520 ascension is absolutely essential as part of that redemptive historical... 1986 01:40:15.369 --> 01:40:18.789 mission that Christ engaged in. What about his preaching? What 1987 01:40:18.829 --> 01:40:20.789 if I say, I believe in the resurrection, but I 1988 01:40:20.810 --> 01:40:22.329 don't believe he actually preached. I believe he was a 1989 01:40:22.430 --> 01:40:25.109 phantasm who just appeared and there was no preaching. You 1990 01:40:25.149 --> 01:40:28.750 see how silly this gets, right? Because there are necessary 1991 01:40:28.789 --> 01:40:36.239 implications to these individual ideas. The death of Christ, does 1992 01:40:36.279 --> 01:40:38.979 that mean the divinity died? Does that mean that Jesus 1993 01:40:39.020 --> 01:40:42.380 was damned by the Father like historic Protestantism taught? So 1994 01:40:42.420 --> 01:40:45.100 just saying these words as if they're sort of basic 1995 01:40:45.159 --> 01:40:48.430 calling cards or whatever is missing the whole point that 1996 01:40:48.939 --> 01:40:51.229 every heretic says he can believe in that and then 1997 01:40:51.250 --> 01:40:54.729 just reinterpret the words in his own way. Nestorius said, 1998 01:40:54.750 --> 01:40:57.670 of course I believe in worshiping Christ, but his position 1999 01:40:57.710 --> 01:41:02.130 was a dual Christology. There's a historic person, Jesus of Nazareth, 2000 01:41:02.329 --> 01:41:04.350 and there's also the divine person of Logos who sometimes 2001 01:41:04.390 --> 01:41:08.090 inhabits and sometimes is there with the historic person. That 2002 01:41:08.189 --> 01:41:11.050 becomes a difficult thing for the church to deal with. 2003 01:41:11.239 --> 01:41:15.329 And so the Council of Ephesus condemns Nestorius. But that's 2004 01:41:15.409 --> 01:41:18.710 why later controversies help us decide these problems as well, 2005 01:41:18.750 --> 01:41:22.050 because Protestantism, although it's new, is also not new. It 2006 01:41:22.090 --> 01:41:25.109 rehashes iconoclasm. It rehashes the denial of the real presence. 2007 01:41:25.170 --> 01:41:25.930 It rehashes the. 2008 01:41:25.909 --> 01:41:29.029 Hatred of relics, hatred of holy objects and images. 2009 01:41:29.569 --> 01:41:32.460 And that's because there is no mark of the church, 2010 01:41:33.079 --> 01:41:36.770 because in Protestantism there is no church. I'm not saying 2011 01:41:36.789 --> 01:41:38.409 you don't have a building, you don't have friends that 2012 01:41:38.449 --> 01:41:41.560 you meet with and that you congregate with. But Protestantism 2013 01:41:41.680 --> 01:41:49.380 is premised on rejecting apostolic succession. It's premised on rejecting sacramentalism. 2014

01:41:50.199 --> 01:41:53.899 It doesn't produce recognized, knowable saints that are honored throughout 2015 01:41:53.939 --> 01:41:54.739 the world, like St. 2016 01:41:54.840 --> 01:41:55.399 Athanasius. 2017 01:41:55.880 --> 01:41:56.020 St. 2018 01:41:56.039 --> 01:41:57.539 Athanasius wrote about the real presence. 2019 01:41:57.760 --> 01:41:58.260 Ten seconds. 2020 01:41:58.960 --> 01:42:01.560 No Protestant would be in communion with St. Athanasius if 2021 01:42:01.579 --> 01:42:03.199 he was living in that day, and he would not 2022 01:42:03.239 --> 01:42:04.689 go to his church. He would not be welcomed there. 2023 01:42:06.329 --> 01:42:09.829 Thank you very much for that rebuttal. We will kick 2024 01:42:09.850 --> 01:42:12.149 it over to Dr. David Wood for his seven-minute rebuttal 2025 01:42:12.170 --> 01:42:13.369 as well. The floor is all yours, David. 2026 01:42:18.949 --> 01:42:22.939 No church in Protestantism. You've got the church used in 2027 01:42:22.960 --> 01:42:26.300 a couple different ways in the Bible. It's usually just 2028 01:42:26.399 --> 01:42:30.239 the local church. It's the church in Corinth, the church here, 2029 01:42:30.260 --> 01:42:33.659 the church there. Sometimes you have it in the sense 2030 01:42:33.680 --> 01:42:37.380 of universal church as in Husbands, love your wives as 2031 01:42:37.439 --> 01:42:39.590 Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. 2032 01:42:39.659 --> 01:42:43.909 So the church would be those that Christ gave himself 2033 01:42:44.029 --> 01:42:49.489 up for and so on. But if believing the gospel 2034 01:42:49.550 --> 01:42:53.890 doesn't get you into that church, I don't even know 2035 01:42:53.909 --> 01:42:55.310 what the Bible's for at this point. I don't even 2036 01:42:55.329 --> 01:42:58.020 know what the book of Acts is for, because it's 2037 01:42:58.060 --> 01:43:03.550 just apparently going to lead you astray from I don't know, 2038 01:43:04.090 --> 01:43:07.250 centuries later in church councils. It actually seems like it's bad. 2039 01:43:07.270 --> 01:43:10.109 It's a bad idea. You can understand why lots of 2040 01:43:10.149 --> 01:43:12.880 times in history they didn't want people reading the Bible 2041 01:43:12.939 --> 01:43:16.180 and didn't want people quoting the Bible to respond to 2042 01:43:16.220 --> 01:43:21.359 what they were saying. Jay says Protestantism is this DYI thing. 2043 01:43:21.699 --> 01:43:28.560 I have to point out, you guys did this. The 2044 01:43:28.659 --> 01:43:31.340 earlier churches are the ones who led to the need 2045 01:43:31.420 --> 01:43:35.479 for a reformation. When someone says, hey, you're doing this, 2046 01:43:35.520 --> 01:43:37.880 you're teaching this, it's clearly wrong, fix that. 2047 01:43:37.899 --> 01:43:38.500 And you say, no. 2048 01:43:38.770 --> 01:43:41.430 You say, but it's really, really wrong, and you're not 2049 01:43:41.529 --> 01:43:43.829 fixing it. Just fix this thing. And you go, no, 2050 01:43:44.050 --> 01:43:46.949 you're not fixing anything. All right, well, what do you 2051 01:43:46.989 --> 01:43:49.609 have then? You have people who say, okay, I guess 2052 01:43:49.670 --> 01:43:56.479 we can't submit to what you're saying right now. they said, 2053 01:43:56.579 --> 01:43:59.399 Protestant churches have been state-run as well. I'm not talking 2054 01:43:59.439 --> 01:44:03.649 about something being state-run. If the state is controlling the 2055 01:44:03.689 --> 01:44:08.449 church and bending it to the will of the leaders, 2056 01:44:09.130 --> 01:44:15.590 as we saw with Empress Irene, she was actually taking 2057 01:44:15.630 --> 01:44:18.890 people and moving them to other parts of the empire 2058 01:44:19.170 --> 01:44:23.649 so that she could get what she wanted. She elevated 2059 01:44:24.689 --> 01:44:32.210 her secretary, who was a layman, to deacon, then to priest, 2060 01:44:32.409 --> 01:44:38.399 then to bishop, then to patriarch of Constantinople, all in 2061 01:44:38.439 --> 01:44:42.600 a few days. Okay, to get the results she want. 2062 01:44:43.020 --> 01:44:44.600 How you look at that and don't see the difference 2063 01:44:44.640 --> 01:44:48.279 between that and a state-funded church or something like that, 2064 01:44:48.520 --> 01:44:52.239 where they're not interfering, totally different situation, totally different situation. 2065 01:44:52.680 --> 01:44:56.590 And again, that set the pattern. After the Ottoman Empire 2066 01:44:56.609 --> 01:45:02.699 took over, how did you become patriarch of Constantinople? Highest bidder. 2067 01:45:03.500 --> 01:45:05.300 You had to be the highest bidder. Here are 2,000 2068 01:45:05.300 --> 01:45:08.220 gold coins. I want to be the new patriarch of Constantinople. 2069 01:45:08.340 --> 01:45:11.439 Ottomans say, okay, you're in. And this sets the pattern. 2070 01:45:11.920 --> 01:45:13.420 Am I allowed to object to that? Am I allowed 2071 01:45:13.439 --> 01:45:15.939 to say that's a problem? Or that I don't want 2072 01:45:15.970 --> 01:45:18.250 to be a part of that? Again, this leads all 2073 01:45:18.270 --> 01:45:22.140 the way down until we get to Putin. So again, 2074 01:45:22.300 --> 01:45:25.180 you know, state-funded church or something like that, that's one thing. 2075 01:45:25.760 --> 01:45:29.729 The state controlling the church and bending it to the 2076 01:45:29.789 --> 01:45:34.930 will of the state to get the Christians to do 2077 01:45:34.989 --> 01:45:38.229 things really that they shouldn't be doing for the sake 2078 01:45:38.250 --> 01:45:40.359 of the state, that's kind of an issue. But it's 2079 01:45:40.399 --> 01:45:43.920 built into it. It's built into your church at this point, 2080 01:45:43.979 --> 01:45:47.140 if you accept the Second Council of Nicaea as infallible. 2081 01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:52.920 Jay continues to say, well, if emperors were controlling the 2082 01:45:53.039 --> 01:45:57.000 church in, let's say, the 8th or 9th

century, then 2083 01:45:57.020 --> 01:46:02.840 the Arians would have won. Unless the Christians back then 2084 01:46:02.979 --> 01:46:05.220 were better at standing their ground and saying, we're not 2085 01:46:05.239 --> 01:46:08.899 going along with this. What would have happened if Constantine said, 2086 01:46:08.939 --> 01:46:11.149 this is the way it is? Was the church going 2087 01:46:11.170 --> 01:46:16.779 to go along with it back then? They started doing 2088 01:46:16.810 --> 01:46:18.449 that in the eighth and ninth centuries. That's the problem. 2089 01:46:19.029 --> 01:46:21.010 The idea that, oh, if you messed up here, then 2090 01:46:21.189 --> 01:46:23.149 anyone would have done the exact same thing in any 2091 01:46:23.189 --> 01:46:28.329 situation is just silly. He says Protestants have a problem 2092 01:46:28.350 --> 01:46:33.350 with binding consciences. Yeah, because the apostles had a problem 2093 01:46:33.369 --> 01:46:38.010 with binding consciences. They said, don't do it. Don't do that. Again, 2094 01:46:38.109 --> 01:46:41.229 the apostle Paul could have said, shut up, eat the 2095 01:46:41.250 --> 01:46:43.630 stupid food. They could have done that. They didn't want to. 2096 01:46:44.329 --> 01:46:46.829 He could have said, oh, you think this day is special, 2097 01:46:46.909 --> 01:46:48.590 you think every day is alike. He could have said, 2098 01:46:48.750 --> 01:46:49.390 shut up, you're wrong. 2099 01:46:49.529 --> 01:46:49.970 He didn't. 2100 01:46:50.529 --> 01:46:52.409 He was fine with the differences. And it's not until 2101 01:46:52.439 --> 01:46:54.859 later you say, no, you can't have the differences. It 2102 01:46:55.659 --> 01:46:57.020 doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter if you 2103 01:46:57.039 --> 01:46:58.600 think something is idolatry, you've got to do it anyway. 2104 01:47:00.859 --> 01:47:03.020 Jay said, well, now I admit that councils are a 2105 01:47:03.039 --> 01:47:05.659 good idea. Councils are a good idea. I've never disputed that. 2106 01:47:06.060 --> 01:47:10.539 They're a bad idea. They're a bad idea. If they're 2107 01:47:10.619 --> 01:47:14.539 wrong and they're contradicting scripture and they're contradicting the gospel 2108 01:47:14.920 --> 01:47:17.600 and they claim to be infallible and they're accepted as such. 2109 01:47:17.800 --> 01:47:22.260 That's my, of course you need councils. Heresies arise. Controversies arise. 2110 01:47:22.579 --> 01:47:23.779 Christians need to get together. 2111 01:47:25.350 --> 01:47:25.819 Obviously. 2112 01:47:26.529 --> 01:47:28.489 So I don't, I don't even know what Jay's responding 2113 01:47:28.510 --> 01:47:34.630 to there. He was making fun of strip mall churches. 2114 01:47:36.460 --> 01:47:38.100 You know, in the first century, you had house churches, 2115 01:47:38.300 --> 01:47:43.890 and then where would Paul be preaching? The Agora, the marketplace. 2116 01:47:44.239 --> 01:47:44.510 Really? 2117 01:47:45.119 --> 01:47:48.649 Look at Randy Ball's Paul there for preaching in the 2118 01:47:48.729 --> 01:47:50.130 marketplace right next. 2119 01:47:49.949 --> 01:47:51.729 To the, you know, what? Really? 2120 01:47:51.750 --> 01:47:53.090 That's what you're going to make fun of people for? 2121 01:47:55.050 --> 01:47:58.029 As far as who in the first nine centuries agreed 2122 01:47:58.069 --> 01:48:02.430 with me on what? That Jesus died for sins? A 2123 01:48:02.630 --> 01:48:04.409 lot of people. That he rose from the dead? A 2124 01:48:04.409 --> 01:48:06.460 lot of people. That he's Lord? A lot of people. 2125 01:48:06.800 --> 01:48:07.920 That God is triune? 2126 01:48:08.060 --> 01:48:08.619 A lot of people. 2127 01:48:08.760 --> 01:48:12.420 That God exists? That the Bible's the word of God? 2128 01:48:13.119 --> 01:48:14.279 What? 2129 01:48:15.430 --> 01:48:18.569 If you're talking about extra stuff that came along later 2130 01:48:19.390 --> 01:48:24.930 and is biblical, it's a question of... What reason do 2131 01:48:25.029 --> 01:48:27.689 I have for believing that? If you can give me 2132 01:48:27.729 --> 01:48:30.439 a good reason for believing it, I will totally believe it. 2133 01:48:30.789 --> 01:48:34.930 If you just say it's because this infallible church council 2134 01:48:35.010 --> 01:48:41.949 said it, and the church council looks really, really, really fallible, yeah, sorry, 2135 01:48:41.970 --> 01:48:44.029 I have a problem with that. And if Jay has 2136 01:48:44.050 --> 01:48:47.210 a problem with the idea of sticking with the basics, again, 2137 01:48:47.250 --> 01:48:49.989 you've got a problem with the apostles. You look in 2138 01:48:50.010 --> 01:48:51.270 the book of Acts when they go out and preach, 2139 01:48:51.760 --> 01:48:55.149 they tend to tended to focus on certain essentials. 2140 01:48:54.770 --> 01:48:55.289 Of the gospel. 2141 01:48:55.409 --> 01:48:58.529 I don't know why it would be hilarious to mock 2142 01:48:59.310 --> 01:49:04.109 focusing on the essentials. And, yeah, that's about it. 2143 01:49:05.020 --> 01:49:07.300 Thank you very much for that rebuttal as well, David. 2144 01:49:07.319 --> 01:49:10.680 We'll jump right into the closings, then we'll have Q 2145 01:49:10.680 --> 01:49:13.500 & A after that, and I've got the timer set 2146 01:49:13.539 --> 01:49:16.260 for you, Jay, for five minutes for your closing statement. 2147 01:49:18.640 --> 01:49:24.079 Is the church essential? I think that's a good question 2148 01:49:24.119 --> 01:49:26.300 we could ask at this point. Because we heard a 2149 01:49:26.319 --> 01:49:28.750 lot about things that are and are not essential. We 2150 01:49:28.770 --> 01:49:32.109 didn't actually hear a consistent, coherent account of what is essential. 2151 01:49:32.670 --> 01:49:35.630 Wouldn't it be great if the church historically had actually 2152 01:49:35.789 --> 01:49:38.329 dealt with what are the essentials? 2153 01:49:38.670 --> 01:49:39.470 Well, it turns

out they have. 2154 01:49:41.279 --> 01:49:47.079 At the Council 381, we're told, along with the rest 2155 01:49:47.119 --> 01:49:50.539 of the earlier Nicene Creed, there's one holy Catholic apostolic church. 2156 01:49:51.640 --> 01:49:53.260 For the Christians of the 4th century. 2157 01:49:53.340 --> 01:49:57.760 The same era in which the East and West, through 2158 01:49:57.800 --> 01:50:03.539 its canonical decisions, almost universally, believed that the Deuterocanon was 2159 01:50:03.579 --> 01:50:08.579 part of Scripture. They believed in the real presence, almost unanimously, 2160 01:50:08.640 --> 01:50:10.680 as far as we can tell from the citations and 2161 01:50:11.140 --> 01:50:16.170 classic patristic quotes. They believed unanimously in baptismal regeneration. For 2162 01:50:16.189 --> 01:50:18.850 a lot of the evangelical Protestants, that would be adding 2163 01:50:18.930 --> 01:50:21.449 to the gospel. That would be falling under the ban 2164 01:50:21.470 --> 01:50:24.329 of Galatians 1, that these are Pharisees. And yet the 2165 01:50:24.369 --> 01:50:28.390 same people that composed that Nicene Creed, at Nicaea 1, 2166 01:50:28.390 --> 01:50:31.449 including St. Athanasius and others, they said this was done 2167 01:50:31.670 --> 01:50:34.770 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He said, I 2168 01:50:34.810 --> 01:50:37.149 don't like councils that talk about it being infallible or 2169 01:50:37.170 --> 01:50:39.909 the voice of the Holy Spirit or whatever. Well, they 2170 01:50:39.949 --> 01:50:42.670 at Nicaea used the same terminology that Acts 15 uses, 2171 01:50:42.689 --> 01:50:44.630 that it seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit. 2172 01:50:45.909 --> 01:50:48.550 So Protestants want to say, I like Nicaea for some 2173 01:50:48.569 --> 01:50:50.310 of these things, but I don't like these other things. 2174 01:50:51.229 --> 01:50:54.569 And at the same time, I'm pointing out that there 2175 01:50:54.630 --> 01:51:05.579 were no non-denominational Christians or churches in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 2176 01:51:06.100 --> 01:51:11.859 16th centuries. Protestant reformers were not non-denominationalists. They thought that 2177 01:51:12.689 --> 01:51:17.060 if you denied baptism... or infant baptism, you should be 2178 01:51:17.100 --> 01:51:20.279 put to death. They put the Anabaptists to death. The 2179 01:51:20.319 --> 01:51:24.960 Presbyterians fought in wars against the Anglicans over church governance. 2180 01:51:25.779 --> 01:51:29.609 The fact that Protestants today don't fight over those topics 2181 01:51:29.810 --> 01:51:33.369 doesn't mean that Protestantism is a superior spiritual position because 2182 01:51:33.390 --> 01:51:37.210 of ecumenism or because tolerance, bro. It just means that 2183 01:51:37.229 --> 01:51:41.020 you're weaker and more watered down. It means that the 2184 01:51:41.069 --> 01:51:44.569 churches of those early centuries understood that not only that 2185 01:51:44.609 --> 01:51:47.329 they had the power and the right, but also a 2186 01:51:47.409 --> 01:51:52.270 duty to excommunicate false teachers and heretics. The Orthodox Church 2187 01:51:52.310 --> 01:51:55.970 to this day still does the anathema service in regard 2188 01:51:56.029 --> 01:52:02.000 to our Sunday of Triumph of Orthodoxy. Many bishops are 2189 01:52:02.079 --> 01:52:05.399 able to add certain things in that and the way 2190 01:52:05.439 --> 01:52:08.140 they do that locally, and they include things like Jehovah's 2191 01:52:08.180 --> 01:52:13.550 Witnesses or Freemasons. And That's appropriate because this was the 2192 01:52:13.670 --> 01:52:17.149 attitude of the church. Orthodox church is actually decentralized. It's 2193 01:52:17.210 --> 01:52:19.829 not centralized. This is a big misconception that people had. 2194 01:52:20.909 --> 01:52:24.979 It's decentralized because it's synodal and it's conciliar. And that 2195 01:52:25.039 --> 01:52:29.579 means that it's got a firewall and an internal mechanism 2196 01:52:29.659 --> 01:52:33.060 for dealing with problems and dissensions and issues. The Protestant 2197 01:52:33.079 --> 01:52:36.500 world doesn't have any of that. It lacks these fundamental 2198 01:52:36.539 --> 01:52:39.939 components because although they have meeting places, because they come 2199 01:52:40.000 --> 01:52:43.680 together and they pray, That's good and well, but there 2200 01:52:43.920 --> 01:52:45.100 is a historic church. 2201 01:52:45.520 --> 01:52:48.300 And if your church is not that historic church, it 2202 01:52:48.319 --> 01:52:49.149 ain't the church. 2203 01:52:49.590 --> 01:52:55.250 The church has certain indicators, signifiers, and marks. And that 2204 01:52:55.350 --> 01:52:58.310 early creed tells us that most Christians. 2205 01:52:58.069 --> 01:52:58.569 Would agree with. 2206 01:52:58.590 --> 01:53:00.029 I mean, when I was a Protestant, when I was 2207 01:53:00.050 --> 01:53:03.029 an evangelical, we would recite the Nicene Creed. Of course, 2208 01:53:03.050 --> 01:53:06.960 it had the filioque, but the interpolated creed. Well, we 2209 01:53:06.979 --> 01:53:09.560 would always say, one holy Catholic apostolic. What did we 2210 01:53:09.600 --> 01:53:11.619 say when we said that? Well, that means that it's 2211 01:53:11.680 --> 01:53:15.670 the individual secret belief of all the known Christians that 2212 01:53:15.710 --> 01:53:18.869 God secretly knows amongst all the different groups. But that's 2213 01:53:18.949 --> 01:53:21.750 not what the composers of the creed believed. That's not 2214 01:53:21.810 --> 01:53:23.930 what Paul is talking about when he says to the Ephesians, 2215 01:53:24.250 --> 01:53:27.310 there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. That 2216 01:53:27.409 --> 01:53:31.960 one body was the actual church at Ephesus that Timothy 2217 01:53:32.039 --> 01:53:34.739 was the presider or the bishop over. 2218

01:53:35.920 --> 01:53:37.340 He had the same power. 2219 01:53:37.079 --> 01:53:40.270 And authority that Paul passed on to him Paul tells him, 2220 01:53:40.630 --> 01:53:43.489 pass that same authority and power on to people after 2221 01:53:43.550 --> 01:53:46.510 him because the giving of the Holy Spirit is transferred 2222 01:53:46.569 --> 01:53:49.649 in the laying on of hands. There are no Protestant 2223 01:53:49.770 --> 01:53:53.810 classical Reformation groups that believe that there's a historical lineage 2224 01:53:55.109 --> 01:53:58.609 of laying on of hands and passing that Holy Spirit, 2225 01:53:58.689 --> 01:54:00.310 exactly what we saw in the book of Numbers as 2226 01:54:00.390 --> 01:54:03.609 I said in my opening statement. That's one of the 2227 01:54:03.680 --> 01:54:06.100 indicators of the true church, and that's one of the 2228 01:54:06.109 --> 01:54:08.899 indicators of having that power and that authority that's normative. 2229 01:54:09.659 --> 01:54:13.899 not infallible in every instance locally, but normative in terms 2230 01:54:13.960 --> 01:54:17.390 of synodal binding power, and that's what all the Christians 2231 01:54:17.430 --> 01:54:21.189 in these centuries believed and exercised. And he thinks, well, 2232 01:54:21.229 --> 01:54:23.189 it went bad at Nicaea too, and we've got to 2233 01:54:23.210 --> 01:54:25.369 get it back on track. No, Jesus said, I will 2234 01:54:25.390 --> 01:54:27.649 be with you until the end of the age. The 2235 01:54:27.670 --> 01:54:30.229 kingdom will not collapse. It will not fall apart. The 2236 01:54:30.250 --> 01:54:33.319 gates will not prevail. If Protestantism is true, then some 2237 01:54:33.359 --> 01:54:35.659 form of restorationism must be true, and we might as 2238 01:54:35.680 --> 01:54:36.279 well be Mormons. 2239 01:54:37.520 --> 01:54:41.220 Thank you very much for that closing as well. All right, David, 2240 01:54:41.239 --> 01:54:43.479 I've got the timer set for you at five minutes. 2241 01:54:45.140 --> 01:54:47.779 Jay quoted Jesus saying, the gates of hell will not 2242 01:54:47.819 --> 01:54:48.720 prevail against the church. 2243 01:54:49.239 --> 01:54:49.619 It hasn't. 2244 01:54:49.659 --> 01:54:52.729 Church is still here, guys. If he interprets that as 2245 01:54:52.789 --> 01:54:55.329 church will never go into error or that every church 2246 01:54:55.369 --> 01:54:57.569 council will be infallible or something like that. Yeah, I'm 2247 01:54:57.609 --> 01:55:00.390 not seeing that in the text. Jay asked, is the 2248 01:55:00.430 --> 01:55:01.109 church essential? 2249 01:55:01.350 --> 01:55:01.850 Absolutely. 2250 01:55:02.939 --> 01:55:08.439 Is your church exclusivity essential? Absolutely not. Is reform essential? 2251 01:55:08.720 --> 01:55:14.199 I would say absolutely yes. So what happens if you 2252 01:55:14.220 --> 01:55:18.470 make reform from within impossible? If you say, if you 2253 01:55:18.489 --> 01:55:21.430 so much as question this or quote the Bible about this, 2254 01:55:22.430 --> 01:55:25.289 you're anathema. If you make it impossible from within, I'd 2255 01:55:25.329 --> 01:55:31.609 say you are basically calling for reform from without. Jay said, ah, 2256 01:55:31.619 --> 01:55:34.399 there weren't these non-denominational churches in the first nine centuries. Like, 2257 01:55:34.439 --> 01:55:37.420 but what What denomination was the church in Corinth or 2258 01:55:37.539 --> 01:55:38.619 Ephesus or something like that? 2259 01:55:38.649 --> 01:55:38.930 Orthodox. 2260 01:55:42.489 --> 01:55:45.170 Orthodox as defined today? 2261 01:55:45.270 --> 01:55:45.750 No, they weren't. 2262 01:55:46.130 --> 01:55:48.189 No, they weren't. No, they weren't. 2263 01:55:48.289 --> 01:55:51.170 They weren't anathematizing people for not venerating images. 2264 01:55:51.210 --> 01:55:51.569 They weren't. 2265 01:55:51.869 --> 01:55:55.439 That's later. That's way, way, way later. So you could 2266 01:55:55.460 --> 01:55:59.439 call it whatever you want. But you had a bunch 2267 01:55:59.479 --> 01:56:03.300 of churches with a bunch of differences. And Paul keeps saying, hey, 2268 01:56:03.500 --> 01:56:07.859 don't divide up over these things. You guys did that 2269 01:56:07.880 --> 01:56:13.539 for a long time before Protestants ever came along. As 2270 01:56:13.560 --> 01:56:15.520 far as church development and councils and so on, the 2271 01:56:15.560 --> 01:56:18.800 church obviously is to deal with controversies and heresies and 2272 01:56:18.819 --> 01:56:20.819 to react to various things that happen. And we see 2273 01:56:20.840 --> 01:56:23.619 a lot of this in the church. And we see 2274 01:56:23.699 --> 01:56:25.100 that this has a lot to do with the development 2275 01:56:25.119 --> 01:56:27.539 of the church. Like, you get the canon. Who made 2276 01:56:27.560 --> 01:56:32.350 the first canon? Marcion, heretic, right? And so. 2277 01:56:33.930 --> 01:56:35.909 They're pointing, hey, this guy came up with a canon. Well, 2278 01:56:36.149 --> 01:56:36.550 they're wrong. 2279 01:56:36.630 --> 01:56:41.300 Okay, we need to address that sort of thing. Who 2280 01:56:41.319 --> 01:56:47.409 started claiming apostolic succession? Who started that? The Gnostics. The 2281 01:56:47.430 --> 01:56:51.390 Gnostics started apostolic. the claims of apostolic succession. They would 2282 01:56:51.430 --> 01:56:54.310 come out with their weird Gnostic teachings, and when you said, hey, 2283 01:56:54.329 --> 01:56:56.869 where'd that come from? We don't see that. They say, yeah, 2284 01:56:57.210 --> 01:56:59.029 we got it from the apostle. We got it from 2285 01:56:59.090 --> 01:57:01.460 apostle so-and-so who passed it on, who passed it on, 2286 01:57:01.489 --> 01:57:05.880 who passed it on. Irenaeus responded, and he said, no, 2287 01:57:06.000 --> 01:57:10.739 apostolic succession is not in secret. It's in public in 2288 01:57:10.760 --> 01:57:13.579 the church, and that wasn't

apostolic succession of authority. That 2289 01:57:13.640 --> 01:57:16.310 also came later, but the point is, That's a reaction. 2290 01:57:16.350 --> 01:57:18.050 That's a reaction to things that are going on. So 2291 01:57:18.090 --> 01:57:19.710 the church does need to react to these things. And 2292 01:57:20.869 --> 01:57:23.640 lots of developments happen through that. And that's good. You 2293 01:57:23.659 --> 01:57:27.520 have to do that. So I'm still in this weird 2294 01:57:27.560 --> 01:57:31.979 situation of I still haven't figured out how you would 2295 01:57:32.180 --> 01:57:35.109 accurately get to the one true church if one of 2296 01:57:35.149 --> 01:57:40.729 these denominations is the one true church. You have to 2297 01:57:40.770 --> 01:57:44.100 start somewhere. When you start with the Bible, you say 2298 01:57:44.119 --> 01:57:45.300 you can't start with the Bible because you don't even 2299 01:57:45.319 --> 01:57:47.000 know what the canon is or something like that. But 2300 01:57:47.020 --> 01:57:48.649 suppose you do it anyway and you start with the Bible. 2301 01:57:49.060 --> 01:57:51.829 And so you read the Bible. And you would have 2302 01:57:51.869 --> 01:57:53.489 to do what? You'd have to, if you want to 2303 01:57:53.529 --> 01:57:57.470 know which of the one true churches is the actual 2304 01:57:57.569 --> 01:58:00.569 one true church, because you see they've divided up over 2305 01:58:00.600 --> 01:58:03.859 the centuries, you'd have to look at why they divided. 2306 01:58:03.939 --> 01:58:06.859 You'd have to say, oh, they had a dispute over this. 2307 01:58:06.960 --> 01:58:08.720 This church went in this direction. This church went in 2308 01:58:08.760 --> 01:58:13.029 that direction. And you'd have to examine that and see 2309 01:58:13.210 --> 01:58:17.399 which one got it right. And if you're wrong, too 2310 01:58:17.439 --> 01:58:19.960 bad you're in, you're not in the one true church, 2311 01:58:19.979 --> 01:58:22.760 you're cut off. And then so you'd have to, once 2312 01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:24.439 you said, okay, these guys got it right, then you 2313 01:58:24.460 --> 01:58:26.159 have to go along, look at the next church split, 2314 01:58:26.579 --> 01:58:29.909 look at why they split and say, Okay, these guys 2315 01:58:29.930 --> 01:58:31.850 got it right, these guys got it wrong, so I'm 2316 01:58:31.890 --> 01:58:33.350 going with these guys. Then you have to look at 2317 01:58:33.390 --> 01:58:35.329 the next church split and the next one, and you 2318 01:58:35.430 --> 01:58:40.069 have to get this right every single time or you're 2319 01:58:40.180 --> 01:58:46.020 not in the one true church. How much church history 2320 01:58:46.460 --> 01:58:50.680 and how much theology and how much philosophy, how accurate 2321 01:58:50.720 --> 01:58:52.880 do you think you'd have to be in those fields 2322 01:58:53.279 --> 01:58:55.600 to get every single one of these issues right? 2323 01:58:55.819 --> 01:58:56.119 One minute. 2324 01:58:57.560 --> 01:59:00.760 Do you think that's what God is requiring of you 2325 01:59:01.220 --> 01:59:06.140 to be in the church? I just don't see that anywhere. Again, 2326 01:59:06.199 --> 01:59:08.739 I quoted it before. Does that sound like the church 2327 01:59:08.899 --> 01:59:12.159 of the one who said, come to me, all you 2328 01:59:12.180 --> 01:59:16.880 who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest? No. 2329 01:59:17.020 --> 01:59:20.359 It sounds like, hey, you want this ongoing nightmare of 2330 01:59:20.439 --> 01:59:23.840 never figuring out what the true church is and having 2331 01:59:23.899 --> 01:59:32.029 to navigate this historical and theological minefield sounds like something completely, 2332 01:59:32.069 --> 01:59:34.949 completely different from what we read from Jesus and from 2333 01:59:35.010 --> 01:59:35.550 the apostles. 2334 01:59:37.670 --> 01:59:40.130 Can we have a one-minute additional back and forth? 2335 01:59:41.569 --> 01:59:45.050 If you guys would like for a little bit. We 2336 01:59:45.069 --> 01:59:46.470 do have to take it out of the Q & 2337 01:59:45.989 --> 01:59:49.560 A time, though, because we have promised the venue that 2338 01:59:49.600 --> 01:59:52.260 we'd be out of the room by 10 p.m. So 2339 01:59:52.359 --> 01:59:53.560 depending on how many you want. 2340 01:59:54.180 --> 01:59:54.300 One. 2341 01:59:54.739 --> 01:59:55.319 You just want one? 2342 01:59:55.500 --> 01:59:55.760 Okay. 2343 01:59:56.760 --> 01:59:58.680 So Jay will have you go for one. Well, actually, 2344 01:59:58.699 --> 02:00:02.250 forgive me, because we're changing the format during the debate. David, 2345 02:00:02.350 --> 02:00:05.409 this is only if you agree, because it is. 2346 02:00:05.430 --> 02:00:05.510 I. 2347 02:00:07.989 --> 02:00:09.899 Think Jay just wanted to respond to something I said, 2348 02:00:09.909 --> 02:00:10.600 so I don't care. 2349 02:00:11.020 --> 02:00:11.279 Okay. 2350 02:00:11.500 --> 02:00:12.960 I mean, if you want to respond, I don't care either, 2351 02:00:13.159 --> 02:00:14.100 since I'm going to respond. 2352 02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:15.720 But he mentioned. 2353 02:00:16.229 --> 02:00:19.489 Irenaeus, you mentioned the Gnostics, and I think it's really 2354 02:00:19.510 --> 02:00:22.170 great to point out that the very argument is the 2355 02:00:22.310 --> 02:00:24.909 opposite of what he argued, if you read Irenaeus in 2356 02:00:24.930 --> 02:00:28.229 Against Heresies, Book 3. Book 3, Chapter 3, says that 2357 02:00:28.289 --> 02:00:33.520 to refute the Gnostics, we look to the perpetual succession 2358 02:00:33.760 --> 02:00:37.180 of the bishops in the churches that the apostles established. 2359 02:00:37.899 --> 02:00:41.380 His first example is the preeminent Church of Rome, because 2360 02:00:41.439 --> 02:00:43.909 it was founded by Peter and Paul. He then lists 2361 02:00:43.949 --> 02:00:50.949 the succession of the bishops in Rome,

Pius and Acetus, Soter, Eleutherius, etc., 2362 02:00:50.840 --> 02:00:53.819 from the apostles. And then he mentions Polycarp elsewhere in 2363 02:00:53.859 --> 02:00:57.729 another place, the apostles and their successors in the churches 2364 02:00:57.770 --> 02:01:01.189 of Smyrna and Asia Minor. So apostolic succession is the 2365 02:01:01.470 --> 02:01:04.319 opposite of what he said, that it's a Gnostic claim. 2366 02:01:04.699 --> 02:01:04.840 St. 2367 02:01:04.880 --> 02:01:09.520 Irenaeus says the Gnostics are refuted by apostolic succession. 2368 02:01:09.800 --> 02:01:12.819 Yeah, that's just not what I was saying at all. 2369 02:01:13.460 --> 02:01:16.750 So you have it there in Irenaeus. Yes, you had people, 2370 02:01:17.689 --> 02:01:22.449 you had apostolic succession. As far as arguing for apostolic succession, 2371 02:01:22.930 --> 02:01:25.789 the Gnostics, and Irenaeus responded and said, no, this is 2372 02:01:25.850 --> 02:01:28.029 not secret. This is in public in the churches. 2373 02:01:28.600 --> 02:01:28.720 So. 2374 02:01:29.770 --> 02:01:30.220 That's what happened. 2375 02:01:30.760 --> 02:01:33.850 With that, we are going to jump into the Q 2376 02:01:33.850 --> 02:01:35.819 & A. Folks, if you want to line up on 2377 02:01:35.859 --> 02:01:38.199 my right, this will be a short Q & A, 2378 02:01:39.020 --> 02:01:41.890 which means that we'll only be able to have one question. 2379 02:01:41.930 --> 02:01:43.829 We can't do follow-up questions as we want to get 2380 02:01:44.109 --> 02:01:49.510 to as many people's questions as possible. Also, there's only 2381 02:01:49.630 --> 02:01:51.579 one question at a time, so please don't do the 2382 02:01:51.659 --> 02:01:54.640 I have two questions thing. And we also want to 2383 02:01:54.659 --> 02:01:57.060 say a huge thank you to our sponsors, Apologetics Arc, 2384 02:01:57.479 --> 02:02:03.750 Uncensored America, Roar, Revival of the Anointed, and Yonaguni International Cuisine, 2385 02:02:03.810 --> 02:02:07.909 linked in the description box. Check out those sponsors right now. 2386 02:02:07.949 --> 02:02:10.840 And with that, we're going to jump right into it. Again, 2387 02:02:11.569 --> 02:02:13.800 just one question, no follow-ups. It has to be a 2388 02:02:13.840 --> 02:02:14.520 total knockout. 2389 02:02:14.560 --> 02:02:17.399 Ready? David, Jay asked you about baptism. 2390 02:02:17.640 --> 02:02:18.220 Folks, I need it. 2391 02:02:18.279 --> 02:02:20.909 Thank you. Jay asked you about baptism. 2392 02:02:20.930 --> 02:02:23.890 I'm curious, in your view, which church or denomination has 2393 02:02:23.930 --> 02:02:26.130 the right interpretation of 1 Peter 3.21? 2394 02:02:26.130 --> 02:02:32.050 Yeah, I'm not, dude, I'm just not a fan of 2395 02:02:32.069 --> 02:02:33.590 the one, if you look, if you look at the 2396 02:02:33.609 --> 02:02:35.689 book of Acts, it's, it's, it's kind of all, it's 2397 02:02:35.710 --> 02:02:37.529 kind of all over the place, right? Sometimes you get 2398 02:02:37.689 --> 02:02:40.850 baptized and you receive the Holy Spirit, you receive the baptism, 2399 02:02:41.170 --> 02:02:43.520 I mean, you, you receive the Holy Spirit before baptism 2400 02:02:43.529 --> 02:02:45.880 and so on. I'm, I'm, there's no scenario where I'm 2401 02:02:45.899 --> 02:02:47.760 going to say this church is right about this and 2402 02:02:47.779 --> 02:02:49.340 other churches are, are wrong, so. 2403 02:02:50.550 --> 02:02:51.729 We have to go to the next question. 2404 02:02:52.640 --> 02:02:55.039 This is directed to David, but I mean, if Jay 2405 02:02:55.100 --> 02:02:58.329 and David could both respond, that'd be great. Galatians 5, 2406 02:02:58.329 --> 02:03:00.779 19 to 21 lists some deeds of the flesh that 2407 02:03:00.800 --> 02:03:03.640 will exclude you from the kingdom of God. So that's, 2408 02:03:04.039 --> 02:03:08.069 these are salvation issues. Listed among those salvation issues is 2409 02:03:08.170 --> 02:03:12.329 dissensions and heresies. Now, David, you've been asked numerous times 2410 02:03:12.369 --> 02:03:14.689 to explain what the essential doctrines are. 2411 02:03:14.989 --> 02:03:17.640 You haven't been able to do it. In your system, 2412 02:03:18.119 --> 02:03:19.380 how can you tell. 2413 02:03:19.199 --> 02:03:21.989 Me what a heresy is that will exclude you from 2414 02:03:22.029 --> 02:03:22.750 the kingdom of God? 2415 02:03:22.869 --> 02:03:24.020 On what basis can you do that? 2416 02:03:27.060 --> 02:03:29.520 Um, I wouldn't do it unless it, unless it's like 2417 02:03:29.880 --> 02:03:32.819 along the lines of what you find in, in scripture. 2418 02:03:33.020 --> 02:03:36.500 So adding something, adding something, adding something to the gospel, 2419 02:03:36.520 --> 02:03:39.770 denying something that's clear about Christ and so on. So that's, 2420 02:03:39.890 --> 02:03:42.869 that's totally, absolutely biblical. Once you start going beyond that 2421 02:03:42.909 --> 02:03:46.329 and saying we anathematize people for not adding to the gospel, 2422 02:03:46.489 --> 02:03:48.069 then that's when I had the issues. 2423 02:03:48.489 --> 02:03:48.869 Ready for you. 2424 02:03:49.869 --> 02:03:53.689 David, even though I would assume that you will appeal 2425 02:03:53.750 --> 02:03:57.689 to an arbitrary consensus of interpretation. Reality would say that 2426 02:03:57.729 --> 02:04:00.640 is a fallacy, but I'll still ask my question. If 2427 02:04:00.680 --> 02:04:05.140 the church is, according to 1 Timothy 3.15, the pillar 2428 02:04:05.220 --> 02:04:07.739 and bulwark of truth, do you believe that the truth 2429 02:04:07.800 --> 02:04:10.010 is inaccessible, or do you believe that there is a 2430 02:04:10.050 --> 02:04:13.050 church with that truth? If so, identify that church. 2431 02:04:15.220 --> 02:04:18.500 Yeah, I believe the church is that, and the Bible 2432 02:04:18.520 --> 02:04:21.300 says that. If you say your exclusive one true church

2433 02:04:21.439 --> 02:04:23.800 is that, and I see it filled with errors, then 2434 02:04:23.859 --> 02:04:26.590 I'd have an issue with that. As far as 1 2435 02:04:26.590 --> 02:04:31.649 Peter 3.15, the church is the pillar and foundation. The 2436 02:04:31.689 --> 02:04:35.109 second word there, foundation, is a little unclear because it's 2437 02:04:35.170 --> 02:04:38.189 not clear what it means in Greek. Some translate it 2438 02:04:38.270 --> 02:04:40.340 as like buttress or something like that, but the pillar 2439 02:04:40.350 --> 02:04:44.720 part is is clear as far as what it means. But, 2440 02:04:44.739 --> 02:04:48.640 I mean, listen, like the pillar of the truth. So 2441 02:04:48.779 --> 02:04:54.579 it's what's holding up the truth for other people to see, 2442 02:04:54.680 --> 02:04:56.619 for the world to see, right? Something's on a pillar. 2443 02:04:56.640 --> 02:05:00.720 No, no, no, we're not doing follow-ups. Sit down. Hey, buddy. Hey, 2444 02:05:01.420 --> 02:05:04.699 get out. If I say no follow-ups and you're going 2445 02:05:04.720 --> 02:05:06.039 to talk. Yeah. 2446 02:05:06.409 --> 02:05:08.630 So I believe that is what the church is. The 2447 02:05:08.649 --> 02:05:11.890 church is upholding the truth for others to see. If 2448 02:05:11.930 --> 02:05:14.710 you interpret that as no church counselor or something can, 2449 02:05:15.310 --> 02:05:18.489 or infallible church counselors, it doesn't sound like that's what 2450 02:05:18.529 --> 02:05:20.239 it's saying to me. Ready. 2451 02:05:20.699 --> 02:05:24.079 This is actually for Mr. Dyer. What is a, oh, sorry. 2452 02:05:24.520 --> 02:05:27.039 Isn't the practice of praying with the saints redundant due 2453 02:05:27.079 --> 02:05:28.739 to the fact that we have direct. 2454 02:05:28.619 --> 02:05:31.140 Access to the Father through Christ Jesus, our high priest? 2455 02:05:31.659 --> 02:05:34.329 Doesn't this practice attribute omniscience to the saints that should 2456 02:05:34.350 --> 02:05:35.090 be reserved. 2457 02:05:34.789 --> 02:05:36.229 For God alone? No. 2458 02:05:36.569 --> 02:05:38.930 The prayer of a righteous man availeth much, and you 2459 02:05:39.010 --> 02:05:41.840 are instructed many times to ask other people to pray 2460 02:05:41.899 --> 02:05:43.920 for you. We all do this practice. We all ask 2461 02:05:43.960 --> 02:05:46.279 the people to pray for us. And so a righteous 2462 02:05:46.319 --> 02:05:48.500 man on earth, in the case of Amos, was able 2463 02:05:48.539 --> 02:05:51.689 to avert the disaster and destruction of Israel. God says, 2464 02:05:51.710 --> 02:05:54.750 I did this because you prayed. So he condescended to 2465 02:05:55.590 --> 02:05:59.409 affirm the prayer request. So, no, if the saints are 2466 02:05:59.529 --> 02:06:02.659 alive and amongst us in the liturgy, they are not dead, 2467 02:06:02.720 --> 02:06:06.159 they are righteous, and in the book of Revelation, chapters 2468 02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:09.140 5 through 9, they are actively praying for and engaged 2469 02:06:09.239 --> 02:06:11.079 with the life of the church on earth. 2470 02:06:12.569 --> 02:06:14.010 All right, after jumping to this question, why don't we 2471 02:06:14.029 --> 02:06:14.890 get through as many as we can. 2472 02:06:14.930 --> 02:06:15.149 Go ahead. 2473 02:06:16.289 --> 02:06:19.750 So, this is for Jay. My genuine goal today is 2474 02:06:19.770 --> 02:06:23.300 to understand the Orthodox perspective. There's something that I can't 2475 02:06:23.409 --> 02:06:26.390 specifically reconcile, and I'd love your thoughts on it. So, 2476 02:06:26.609 --> 02:06:29.770 as someone who sincerely wants to please God, it seems 2477 02:06:29.850 --> 02:06:32.210 reasonable to me that if I believe and follow everything 2478 02:06:32.229 --> 02:06:35.640 that Jesus said, that I'd be pleasing God. When I 2479 02:06:35.680 --> 02:06:38.340 look at the Protestant perspective, I see an emphasis on 2480 02:06:38.420 --> 02:06:42.319 sticking to Jesus' direct instructions. They agree with Paul that 2481 02:06:42.380 --> 02:06:45.140 matters not tied to salvation don't need to be fought over. 2482 02:06:45.739 --> 02:06:48.850 The Orthodox perspective, on the other hand, seems to hold 2483 02:06:48.899 --> 02:06:52.189 dogma on things that Jesus never directly asked of anyone. 2484 02:06:52.810 --> 02:06:55.899 And even if a council hundreds of years later established 2485 02:06:55.920 --> 02:06:58.819 something as dogma, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus 2486 02:06:58.840 --> 02:07:02.300 didn't consider it important enough to state directly, how do 2487 02:07:02.340 --> 02:07:02.869 you see it? 2488 02:07:03.680 --> 02:07:06.020 Yeah, Jesus said, he who hears you hears me. 2489 02:07:06.159 --> 02:07:08.710 So that itself refutes the idea that I only have 2490 02:07:08.750 --> 02:07:10.590 to listen to what Jesus said because he gave his 2491 02:07:10.630 --> 02:07:13.829 authority to his apostles to go out and establish a church. 2492 02:07:13.989 --> 02:07:16.109 And thus, by that argument, you don't have to listen 2493 02:07:16.170 --> 02:07:20.300 to Peter or Paul. No, in fact, the apostles teach 2494 02:07:20.840 --> 02:07:23.899 everything that they were handed down, whether oral or written, 2495 02:07:23.939 --> 02:07:26.729 and Paul tells the church at Thessaloniki to pass on 2496 02:07:26.770 --> 02:07:29.210 the oral and written teaching. So that alone would refute 2497 02:07:29.329 --> 02:07:31.670 this only read the red letters stuff. 2498 02:07:32.369 --> 02:07:32.710 Ready for you. 2499 02:07:33.770 --> 02:07:34.789 My question's for Jay. 2500 02:07:35.890 --> 02:07:38.909 My question's for Jay. I assume you would say that 2501 02:07:38.930 --> 02:07:43.010 the way we know what essentials are is from the Nicene, Constantinople, 2502 02:07:43.050 --> 02:07:48.350 and Creed, but that Creed includes seemingly trivial things like 2503 02:07:49.069 --> 02:07:52.640 that

Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate and rose on 2504 02:07:53.159 --> 02:07:53.640 the fourth day? 2505 02:07:53.659 --> 02:07:54.859 I understand. 2506 02:07:55.020 --> 02:07:57.149 But what if someone were to say he was crucified 2507 02:07:57.270 --> 02:07:59.409 under someone else, Pontius Pilate was not governor, or that 2508 02:07:59.430 --> 02:08:00.979 he rose on the fourth day? on the fourth day? 2509 02:08:01.039 --> 02:08:02.819 Those would be stupid things. But are you really going 2510 02:08:02.840 --> 02:08:04.989 to say someone would be cut off from hell? because 2511 02:08:05.050 --> 02:08:07.489 I don't think Pontius Pilate was governor. I'm just curious. 2512 02:08:07.670 --> 02:08:10.909 Creedal definitions are not intended to be these sort of 2513 02:08:10.989 --> 02:08:14.050 spurgey things where if somebody makes a simple mistake, creedal 2514 02:08:14.069 --> 02:08:18.180 definitions are there to delineate when people are publicly teaching heresy, 2515 02:08:18.220 --> 02:08:20.359 which would then exclude them. So no, simply making a 2516 02:08:20.399 --> 02:08:23.819 mistake or being what is sometimes called a material heretic 2517 02:08:24.300 --> 02:08:26.640 is not the same thing as a formal heretic, meaning 2518 02:08:26.699 --> 02:08:29.159 somebody who is a public teacher of error or heresy. 2519 02:08:29.199 --> 02:08:31.819 So James White, again, not the same thing as Baptist grandma. 2520 02:08:32.350 --> 02:08:35.869 even though both are erroneous. So the difference is material 2521 02:08:35.890 --> 02:08:36.949 versus formal heresy. 2522 02:08:37.890 --> 02:08:39.270 Ready for the question. Thank you. 2523 02:08:40.130 --> 02:08:40.590 Hi, David. 2524 02:08:41.050 --> 02:08:44.159 I'm wondering if over the course of the past number 2525 02:08:44.180 --> 02:08:45.880 of months, you've come to a conclusion on whether you 2526 02:08:45.899 --> 02:08:47.960 believe in the five solas, and if you could tell 2527 02:08:48.000 --> 02:08:49.600 me whether or not I need to believe in them 2528 02:08:49.640 --> 02:08:50.199 to be saved. 2529 02:08:54.560 --> 02:08:57.539 Yeah. So the issue is, as far as the five solas, 2530 02:08:58.159 --> 02:09:00.689 my view is I don't like going with what people 2531 02:09:01.800 --> 02:09:05.399 Said centuries later, as far as, I'd rather just go 2532 02:09:05.689 --> 02:09:12.289 with what the Bible says. With that said, four of them, 2533 02:09:12.670 --> 02:09:16.489 so let's see, you've got Sola Scriptura aside for one second, 2534 02:09:16.729 --> 02:09:21.800 but Sola Gratia, yeah, that's clear from Scripture. Sola fide, 2535 02:09:21.819 --> 02:09:25.569 that's clear from Scripture. Solus Christus. And the reason I 2536 02:09:25.569 --> 02:09:28.590 don't like just saying that is I want people to 2537 02:09:28.729 --> 02:09:31.750 clearly define what they're based on so that there's no misunderstanding. 2538 02:09:31.770 --> 02:09:33.590 So when you say, Solus Christus, Christ alone, what does 2539 02:09:33.609 --> 02:09:36.329 that mean? Well, there's one mediator. So it's actually just 2540 02:09:36.390 --> 02:09:38.329 a Bible verse. So I'd be inclined to just stick 2541 02:09:38.350 --> 02:09:44.619 with the Bible verse. And then solidea gloriae. that glory, 2542 02:09:44.800 --> 02:09:46.539 glory to God alone. And you say, what do you 2543 02:09:46.579 --> 02:09:48.279 mean glory to God? There can be glory in other 2544 02:09:48.319 --> 02:09:50.439 senses for other people. Well, if you understand it, it's, well, 2545 02:09:50.510 --> 02:09:54.470 since God is the author of our salvation, he's responsible 2546 02:09:54.489 --> 02:09:56.850 for everything, then he gets the glory for that alone. 2547 02:09:56.909 --> 02:09:59.369 So I don't know. I just like things either just 2548 02:09:59.590 --> 02:10:03.189 lay out everything. Oh, and so with those four, I 2549 02:10:03.229 --> 02:10:05.930 think they all flow right from the Bible or direct 2550 02:10:05.970 --> 02:10:09.449 inference from the Bible, sola scriptura, I would be open. 2551 02:10:09.529 --> 02:10:14.829 I'd be open to some additional infallible authority. It's just 2552 02:10:14.909 --> 02:10:16.970 when I look at the things that are claimed to 2553 02:10:17.010 --> 02:10:19.960 be the infallible authorities, I don't see how they could 2554 02:10:19.979 --> 02:10:23.920 possibly be the infallible authority. So I'm kind of sola scriptura, 2555 02:10:24.199 --> 02:10:28.859 as far as like infallible authority, by default, by default, 2556 02:10:28.939 --> 02:10:32.079 until someone comes along and shows me something else. But anyway, 2557 02:10:32.520 --> 02:10:34.340 the point is, and I don't like to hate you 2558 02:10:34.399 --> 02:10:38.119 from these things when I think, what is your understanding 2559 02:10:38.149 --> 02:10:40.550 of all these things? And why wouldn't I just go 2560 02:10:40.569 --> 02:10:42.909 with the Bible on what the Bible says on those things? 2561 02:10:43.529 --> 02:10:46.170 I haven't done a good job of getting questions for Jay. 2562 02:10:46.189 --> 02:10:48.109 Does anyone have a challenge for Jay? Come on up. 2563 02:10:49.920 --> 02:10:54.079 So you mentioned several times that there are no deacons 2564 02:10:54.260 --> 02:10:57.659 and elders and bishops. I don't know what church you 2565 02:10:57.699 --> 02:10:59.840 went to, but I have never heard of a church 2566 02:10:59.859 --> 02:11:05.869 without a deacon. Usually there's elders, most Protestant denominations. Here's 2567 02:11:05.909 --> 02:11:14.210 a diagram of my church's non-denominational Bible teaching. Jesus, pastor, elders, deacons, board, 2568 02:11:14.270 --> 02:11:18.199 assistant pastors, congregation. So I don't know what church you 2569 02:11:18.220 --> 02:11:19.979 go to that's Protestant without deacons. 2570 02:11:20.060 --> 02:11:23.899 I never said there's no presbyters or preachers or deacons 2571 02:11:23.979 --> 02:11:24.779

in Protestant churches. 2572 02:11:24.819 --> 02:11:28.220 Never said that. That's ridiculous. So you weren't listening. 2573 02:11:28.720 --> 02:11:29.159 Next question. 2574 02:11:29.779 --> 02:11:33.779 Questions for David. It was hinted at today, but yesterday 2575 02:11:33.800 --> 02:11:36.119 you said it more clearly that the veneration of icons 2576 02:11:36.159 --> 02:11:38.880 did not arise until around the 6th or 7th century, 2577 02:11:39.300 --> 02:11:42.470 according to the historians that you've read. I've read some 2578 02:11:42.569 --> 02:11:46.430 art historiography that says something a little bit different. So 2579 02:11:46.550 --> 02:11:49.130 in 2016, The Dawn of Christian Art was published by 2580 02:11:49.170 --> 02:11:52.680 Thomas Matthews, who's a professor emeritus at NYU Institute of 2581 02:11:52.720 --> 02:11:55.539 Fine Arts, and by Norman Muller, who's a conservator at 2582 02:11:55.560 --> 02:11:59.710 the Princeton University Art Museum, so two secular universities. art museums, 2583 02:11:59.789 --> 02:12:03.989 two separate institutions, funded under two separate research grants in 2584 02:12:04.029 --> 02:12:10.449 a secular capacity, and published under the J. Paul Getty 2585 02:12:10.529 --> 02:12:13.560 Art Museum. This is what they said in this book. Quote, 2586 02:12:14.039 --> 02:12:17.539 Colt is the most contested issue of modern icon study, 2587 02:12:17.939 --> 02:12:20.979 as a sizable contingent of scholars agree with Mango and Brubaker, 2588 02:12:21.079 --> 02:12:24.090 which are 6th, 7th century scholars, that the veneration of 2589 02:12:24.119 --> 02:12:27.199 images had no place in early Christian worship. but our 2590 02:12:27.260 --> 02:12:31.189 project explores evidence to the contrary. We believe that the 2591 02:12:31.250 --> 02:12:35.640 cultic use of panel paintings was a continuous tradition from 2592 02:12:35.720 --> 02:12:40.920 antiquity into Christianity. That tradition evolved, sorry, and developed, it 2593 02:12:40.960 --> 02:12:44.210 expanded and contracted, and the images that it generated continued 2594 02:12:44.229 --> 02:12:46.329 to change, yet it seems to remain as a strong 2595 02:12:46.390 --> 02:12:49.970 line of cultural continuity and deserves to be studied as such, 2596 02:12:50.430 --> 02:12:54.489 end quote. Can you help reconcile what you've claimed and 2597 02:12:54.550 --> 02:12:57.930 said with what I've been reading in secular art historiography? 2598 02:12:59.010 --> 02:13:02.430 Yeah, and even prior to the debate, I did notice 2599 02:13:03.560 --> 02:13:08.260 To be fair, I did notice some different claims from, one, 2600 02:13:08.359 --> 02:13:13.739 the church historians looking at the history of it, and 2601 02:13:14.310 --> 02:13:17.069 the art historians. I've seen claims like that from the 2602 02:13:17.109 --> 02:13:25.130 art historians, whereas the books that I went to, whether 2603 02:13:25.170 --> 02:13:28.449 by Roman Catholic scholars or Eastern Orthodox scholars, and even here, 2604 02:13:28.819 --> 02:13:32.550 I'm sure there are differences, but They keep saying things 2605 02:13:32.630 --> 02:13:34.550 along the lines. So this is Richard Price again. I 2606 02:13:34.550 --> 02:13:39.210 quoted this yesterday. The iconoclasts claim that reverence towards the 2607 02:13:39.310 --> 02:13:41.750 images did not go back to the golden age of 2608 02:13:41.789 --> 02:13:44.710 the fathers, still less to the apostles, would be judged 2609 02:13:45.170 --> 02:13:49.630 by impartial historians today to be simply correct. The iconophile 2610 02:13:49.649 --> 02:13:52.029 view of the history of Christian thought and devotion was 2611 02:13:52.109 --> 02:13:55.680 virtually a denial of history in favor of a myth 2612 02:13:55.720 --> 02:13:57.880 of a religion that had been perfect from the first 2613 02:13:57.939 --> 02:14:00.979 and needed no addition or subtraction. As far as the 2614 02:14:01.039 --> 02:14:08.140 difference that you see, I think they might have some 2615 02:14:08.340 --> 02:14:11.319 different criteria. And what it really looks like is some 2616 02:14:11.350 --> 02:14:13.010 people are just looking, well, here's an image, and here's 2617 02:14:13.050 --> 02:14:14.609 an image, and here's an image, and here's an image. 2618 02:14:14.630 --> 02:14:17.250 These are obviously for veneration or something like that. And 2619 02:14:17.270 --> 02:14:19.170 other people are saying, no, you got a bunch of pictures. 2620 02:14:19.229 --> 02:14:23.390 Where are you getting the veneration part? But I mean... 2621 02:14:24.420 --> 02:14:27.050 I don't know. I'd have to really go through what 2622 02:14:27.100 --> 02:14:30.189 the art historians are saying because the church historians are 2623 02:14:30.210 --> 02:14:30.729 saying something different. 2624 02:14:31.710 --> 02:14:33.310 Yeah. Can we reply or no? 2625 02:14:33.449 --> 02:14:33.590 Yeah. 2626 02:14:34.090 --> 02:14:36.609 Yeah, but also, as we pointed out in my statement 2627 02:14:36.670 --> 02:14:39.029 on that, if you get the Michael Garten book, recent 2628 02:14:39.050 --> 02:14:42.479 scholarship has challenged a lot of those claims, including numerous 2629 02:14:42.529 --> 02:14:47.380 Protestant and even atheistic religious scholars pointing out that the 2630 02:14:47.539 --> 02:14:51.359 apotropaic approach is pretty consistent amongst a lot of the 2631 02:14:51.420 --> 02:14:52.020 early church. 2632 02:14:52.119 --> 02:14:52.539 That means. 2633 02:14:53.189 --> 02:14:56.479 For example, the cross being a thing that wards off evil, right? 2634 02:14:57.060 --> 02:14:58.739 So the veneration of the cross was one of the 2635 02:14:58.760 --> 02:14:59.840 key examples that I gave. 2636 02:15:00.920 --> 02:15:05.720 And one basically extra hurdle here is, so you've got 2637 02:15:05.760 --> 02:15:08.430 multiple levels here. So you've got one, what art is there? 2638 02:15:09.289 --> 02:15:13.409 And then the

second issue is, was this art being venerated? 2639 02:15:14.369 --> 02:15:17.369 And then the third is, who was doing the venerating 2640 02:15:17.470 --> 02:15:23.310 and how widespread or universal was the veneration? And then 2641 02:15:23.529 --> 02:15:27.260 beyond that, was it thought of as a requirement for 2642 02:15:27.310 --> 02:15:30.779 salvation and so on? And yeah, I think the further 2643 02:15:30.819 --> 02:15:36.399 up you go on that scale, the more problems you have. 2644 02:15:37.859 --> 02:15:38.880 All right, one last question. 2645 02:15:39.800 --> 02:15:42.659 The prompt of the debate, this is for you, the 2646 02:15:42.699 --> 02:15:44.760 prompt of the debate was, which is the true church? 2647 02:15:44.899 --> 02:15:46.319 And you argued for Protestantism. 2648 02:15:47.000 --> 02:15:49.819 If we can agree that God gave us one objective truth, 2649 02:15:49.979 --> 02:15:53.239 then we would expect the innumerable Protestant denominations to reflect 2650 02:15:53.300 --> 02:15:55.000 different levels of that one truth. 2651 02:15:55.819 --> 02:15:57.180 Which do you think is the most true? 2652 02:16:00.380 --> 02:16:05.039 Here I would, I just wouldn't say. It would have 2653 02:16:05.060 --> 02:16:06.760 to be on a case-by-case basis, because I don't want 2654 02:16:06.779 --> 02:16:10.319 to say, oh, that denomination, when there might be a 2655 02:16:10.350 --> 02:16:15.609 really screwed up church in that denomination. But yeah. I mean, 2656 02:16:17.029 --> 02:16:19.920 I'm thinking of churches I know and going, well, that's pretty, 2657 02:16:19.939 --> 02:16:22.000 they're right on the money there. They're right on line. 2658 02:16:22.039 --> 02:16:24.880 But I mean, I've seen Presbyterian churches where I'm like, eh, 2659 02:16:25.039 --> 02:16:27.359 these guys are right on the money. And I've been 2660 02:16:27.380 --> 02:16:29.659 in Baptist churches where, I've been in Baptist churches where 2661 02:16:29.680 --> 02:16:30.899 they're like, what the heck is this? And I've been 2662 02:16:30.920 --> 02:16:33.899 in Baptist churches where, hey, this is a really, really 2663 02:16:34.059 --> 02:16:37.399 solid biblical church. So yeah, I wouldn't say this denomination 2664 02:16:37.440 --> 02:16:38.059 or that denomination. 2665 02:16:39.079 --> 02:16:41.899 Is there going to be book sell time, or do 2666 02:16:41.920 --> 02:16:42.840 we have to get out of here, James? 2667 02:16:43.850 --> 02:16:45.930 Yes, you can as we're taking down. 2668 02:16:46.010 --> 02:16:48.239 My goodness, did you see James' lats when he. 2669 02:16:49.889 --> 02:16:53.500 It's... All right, David, control yourself. 2670 02:16:53.530 --> 02:16:54.780 He is not skipping lat. 2671 02:16:54.639 --> 02:16:55.219 Day, man. 2672 02:16:55.299 --> 02:16:57.979 David's checking out dudes bending over. 2673 02:16:58.579 --> 02:17:01.260 Lats, man. I was waist up, man. I was looking 2674 02:17:01.280 --> 02:17:01.690 waist up. 2675 02:17:01.700 --> 02:17:05.540 I want to say a couple of quick housekeeping things. First, 2676 02:17:05.559 --> 02:17:08.190 I want to say thank you so much for your questions. 2677 02:17:08.209 --> 02:17:10.010 Thanks so much. Let's give a huge round of applause 2678 02:17:10.030 --> 02:17:12.350 for our speakers. That was amazing. 2679 02:17:12.370 --> 02:17:12.569 Thank you. 2680 02:17:18.739 --> 02:17:23.870 That was outstanding. And so I want to give a 2681 02:17:24.010 --> 02:17:25.809 couple of thank yous. We do want to move quickly 2682 02:17:25.850 --> 02:17:28.170 just because basically once I wrap up, if you can 2683 02:17:28.190 --> 02:17:30.030 do me a favor, we do want to get everybody, 2684 02:17:30.370 --> 02:17:32.059 if you can, vacate the room because we have to 2685 02:17:32.090 --> 02:17:33.760 do a rapid takedown because we want to keep our 2686 02:17:33.780 --> 02:17:35.260 promise to the venue of getting out of here at 2687 02:17:35.299 --> 02:17:38.700 the time that we promised. And... The venue's been so 2688 02:17:38.760 --> 02:17:41.120 good to us, but you've also been so good to us. 2689 02:17:41.139 --> 02:17:43.260 We appreciate that. I do want to do a couple 2690 02:17:43.280 --> 02:17:45.260 of quick things. I want to do some thank yous 2691 02:17:45.340 --> 02:17:47.569 as well as announce something very juicy. So if you 2692 02:17:47.590 --> 02:17:49.950 can just give me one minute before you do clear. 2693 02:17:50.159 --> 02:17:50.270 Out. 2694 02:17:50.579 --> 02:17:55.459 We are thrilled to announce DebateConX will be this February 2695 02:17:55.760 --> 02:18:00.200 20th and 21st in Dallas. This will feature Cenk Uygur 2696 02:18:00.280 --> 02:18:05.360 versus Destiny as well as Jay Dyer versus Trent Horn 2697 02:18:05.719 --> 02:18:09.040 and Andrew Wilson versus Cenk Uygur. You don't want to 2698 02:18:09.059 --> 02:18:11.610 miss it. That is linked in the description box if 2699 02:18:11.629 --> 02:18:14.829 you're watching from home. But I want to give thank 2700 02:18:14.870 --> 02:18:18.940 yous to so many people. Bob is my right-hand man. 2701 02:18:18.979 --> 02:18:21.420 He does so much of the organizing for the event 2702 02:18:21.459 --> 02:18:23.579 in terms of food, all sorts of stuff, security. I 2703 02:18:23.579 --> 02:18:25.280 want to say thank you so much for the security, 2704 02:18:25.319 --> 02:18:27.420 for their help. I also want to say a huge 2705 02:18:27.459 --> 02:18:29.729 thank you to Sean, our tech guy. He does an 2706 02:18:29.770 --> 02:18:32.649 amazing job. It's crazy how much he does. I want 2707 02:18:32.670 --> 02:18:35.670 to say a huge thank you to Mike. Big Mike. Yeah, 2708 02:18:35.930 --> 02:18:36.569 he's my boy. 2709 02:18:36.590 --> 02:18:38.030 We love Mike. 2710 02:18:40.620 --> 02:18:44.250 Patrick as well. Patrick, are you in here? Where are you, Patrick? 2711 02:18:44.489 --> 02:18:48.069 But as well as Adrian Delgado, who I happened to 2712 02:18:48.129 --> 02:18:50.829 kick out. He's an awesome guy, and I feel really 2713 02:18:50.879 --> 02:18:53.739 bad about that. Adrian's awesome. He's been helping out a lot. 2714 02:18:54.000 --> 02:18:56.239 So please give him a high five. We love Adrian. 2715 02:18:56.940 --> 02:18:59.059 And I want to say, though, thank you guys so 2716 02:18:59.100 --> 02:19:01.590 much for supporting this event, you guys. We appreciate you. 2717 02:19:01.610 --> 02:19:04.659 We hope to see you at the next one. Drive safe. Oh, 2718 02:19:04.690 --> 02:19:06.229 and then if you are all access, if you have 2719 02:19:06.250 --> 02:19:09.569 a red wristband, we do have Mike up here has 2720 02:19:10.069 --> 02:19:12.110 the signed emblem pages for you. Be sure to get 2721 02:19:12.149 --> 02:19:14.590 that on your way out if you have a red wristband. 2722 02:19:14.969 --> 02:19:17.090 Thanks so much, folks. We'll see you at the next one. 2723 02:19:17.290 --> 02:19:26.409 Drive safe. Huge thanks to Revival of the Anointed's Rule, 2724 02:19:26.729 --> 02:19:30.629 equipping Christians to fight for biblical values through policy victories. 2725 02:19:30.790 --> 02:19:41.559 Check out revivetheroar.org. Special thanks to our sponsor, Uncensored America. 2726 02:19:41.579 --> 02:19:45.399 Want to host a controversial speaker on your college campus? 2727 02:19:45.659 --> 02:19:54.030 Start a chapter now on your campus at uncensoredamerica.us. Huge 2728 02:19:54.069 --> 02:19:57.889 thanks to our sponsor, Apologetics Arc. Check out their app 2729 02:19:57.909 --> 02:20:01.510 today by downloading it. 1 Peter 3.15 says always be 2730 02:20:01.569 --> 02:20:09.950 ready to give a defense. Huge thank you to our sponsor, 2731 02:20:10.049 --> 02:20:15.139 Yonaguni International Cuisine of Aguadilla, Puerto Rico. Check them out 2732 02:20:15.280 --> 02:20:15.959 on your next trip.