TRANSKRIPTIO 🔗
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You. Welcome, everybody. My name is Cheney Ryan.
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I'm a fellow of the Program on Ethics, Law and Conflict, as well as for the other part of the year, a professor of law at the University of Oregon.
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It is our great privilege to have Professor Dean Chatterjee here today, who is a distinguished professor at the law school at the University of Utah,
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and who, among his other accomplishments has just published a book on the ethics of preventive war.
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I should say it's a special treat for me to introduce Dean.
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I've known him for many years in America.
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Some of us date things by relating to which country America had invaded most recently,
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and I met Dean somewhere in between the invasion of Grenada and the invasion of Panama.
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So that was quite a while ago. But Dean has always been someone who I've greatly admired as someone who not only works on war,
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but works on a lot of other issues too, including global poverty, global justice, etc.
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Dean will talk to us for 25 or 30 minutes.
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And then David Roden, also from Iraq, will do some comments and then we will follow that with discussion from everybody.
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DEAN Thank you, John, for this very kind introduction.
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My voice is almost gone, but it's still audible.
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I've been travelling a lot and the last leg of my flight had been a long one and that's when something must have happened.
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But hopefully if I speak slowly, [INAUDIBLE] be able to hear me.
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So that's why, based on David's suggestion, I made my draft much shorter.
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I should not want to inquire non-stop boring reading with this voice,
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but interruption with more informal chatting and more room for my David to respond to any to comment.
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And of course, I'm eager to hear from you. My book, The Ethics of Preventive War, just came out,
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got released in the United States last week and maybe here in this country two weeks before that.
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And this is an important book on this current big controversy on the permissibility of preventive war.
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Oh, of course not. The one that came out not that long ago is Henry.
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Henry and David's book on prevention and prevention.
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That's quite well known, of course. So here, of course, I'll be slighting Henry on something that you will get to see.
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But basically what I am planning to do in a short focussed format is instead of going
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through all the details of all the scholars and authors of what they have said,
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oh, how they have been developing their ideas, where their flaws are and all that, that's going to be extremely boring and tedious.
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And for that, of course, you can you can read the ideas either in this book, in my writing site and in any other place,
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I've tried to give you my response as to where I would like to take this debate on preventive war in view of the current problems of international,
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international law, ethics and issues are basically how I see it is this this idea of preventive war.
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There has been some talk that due to the current nature of warfare in the 21st century,
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there is obviously the blurring of the distinction between pre-emption and prevention,
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and that made our attitude toward preventive war a bit more open, along with other things that I would mention.
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There has also been the other side that is getting more and more prominent, and I'm part of that.
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That side, which is that preventive war, it's permissibility are allows more war and less peace.
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I don't want to make it just in sort of a crass utilitarian sense as to what's wrong with prevent war in case there is real.
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Big need for preventive war. We have to see how in a rather ethical and constrained manner, perhaps we can leave some limited scope for that.
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I would like to show that even if only we leave some limited scope for that, it can get out of control and out of hand very easily.
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And so what is the way to go about it? I would like to show that we have to devise some other ways where instead of preventive intervention,
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perhaps we should go for a different paradigm, which I have dubbed preventive on intervention, preventive non-intervention.
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And what exactly is that? Part of the idea of this just peace theory, just peace theory, that this idea of starting from the just war paradigm,
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if we start with the just peace paradigm, we would not get to this routine nor lead toward preventive intervention.
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It would be somewhere where we find that preventive intervention is getting almost the need for that is almost redundant.
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If we start with this just peace approach. What exactly is this approach?
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Load full transcript
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I would like to develop it a little bit here. Of course, we had ideas on some of these issues for a long, long time, for the last 25, 30 years.
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We know how in-depth the reactor his ideas are.
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I David also is a critic of preventive war, and I have so much sympathy for his views.
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So hopefully between our two views or two sides, something cohesive will emerge.
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So I may have to sit down to take a look at this computer, but hopefully I'll be loud enough.
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Loud enough that you get to understand me.
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Okay. So and I'll be stopping from time to time, too,
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to make myself more clear and discern the certainty factor, the certainty factor of an imminent danger.
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Debated considerably in the just war tradition is now put to severe test.
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In view of in view of the challenges of today's warfare.
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This this most certainty factor of an imminent danger.
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How do we measure it and when should do it?
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What should we respond to it? Okay,
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so this blurring of the blurring this blurring of the distinction between pre-emption and prevention in
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matters of peace and security seems to have contributed to a more open attitude toward preventive war.
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Scholars also point out that the permissive interpretation of preventive measures can be found
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in the later just war tradition of gotchas and halts as part of reasonable self-defence,
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and also in Chapter seven of the United Nations Charter pertaining to the Security Council in matters of international peace and security.
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That's one side which seems to claim that sovereignty and non-intervention might be the accepted norms in international law,
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but stipulated measures suggestive of preventive intervention are permissible with Security Council authorisation.
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Thus. Making preventive war legal under current international law.
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That's one side. In fact, even here, we have, of course, controversy.
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For example, David Brody has very much to play.
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Not even forget about preventive war.
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Even when it comes to ending war, it's not that clear that international law allows into war even for get up and prevent war.
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So that's, of course, okay.
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But the other side that tends to question this idea of a more broader attitude, a more permissive attitude toward an not toward preventive war,
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are leading to a broader type of military engagement in the name of self-defence and in rare
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cases now for the so-called rescue rescue wars or the humanitarian military intervention.
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Okay. The other side goes something like this,
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that the provision of preventive war in self-defence can get unduly interventionist, making the world less secure.
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The world needs a justice based approach that addresses the underlying causes of global tension and crisis.
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Deprivation and humiliation. Deprivation and humiliation in our inequitable global order are the two chief reasons for tension and resentment.
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Creating hostilities, confronting deprivation through economic development and responding to humiliation through political recognition
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would go a long way toward mitigating tension and resentment and diminishing the global democracy deficit.
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I'll comment on that a bit more, don't you?
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Studies have shown that non-military measures can be more effective in confronting terrorism than military actions,
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which may even prove to be counterproductive.
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Former United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has famously observed that the ingredients of enduring
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global security lie not necessarily in deploying a nation's military force for global safekeeping,
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but more importantly in promoting just development and comprehensive human rights.
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Well, look, this gets a bit off my view. I'm just coming to old ink so that I can get to the gist of it.
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My view that countries should promote prevention in non-interventionist terms by relying on the soft power of diplomacy and collaboration.
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This is the path toward just peace.
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Just peace, which I promote as the antidote to preventive war.
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If we do not place a principle premium on it, on a proactive and comprehensive,
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non-interventionist policy of just peace, then the option of preventive war.
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However, a constraint could gain undue legitimacy leading to more war, not less.
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The idea of just peace relies on the global project of democratic governments collaborative global political order.
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Let me just use one recent example, an application from New York Times.
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As you put from New York Times, it was Yadlin, the former Amos Yadlin, the former chief of Israeli military intelligence,
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via commenting on a possible Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear facilities.
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Now it's got. Mr. Obama will have to shift the Israeli defence establishment's thinking from a focus on the zone of immunity,
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as he calls it, to a zone of trust, to a zone of trust, unquote.
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However he can choose, however he constitutes the zone of trust in terms of preventive and military intervention.
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He writes, quote, What is needed is an ironclad American assurance that that if Israel refrains from acting
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in its own window of opportunity to justice in the interest of saving for passage,
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you have to share it this way so that he can hopefully.
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However, he constrains the open quote zone of trust, close quote, in terms of preventive military intervention.
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He writes, open quote, What is needed is an ironclad American assurance that if Israel refrains from
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acting in its own window of opportunity and all other options have failed,
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Washington will act to prevent a nuclear Iran while it is still within its power to do so.
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Close quote. In contrast to this expanded just war military approach, my idea of just peace would construe the,
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quote zone of trust in terms of preventive non-intervention,
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creating a zone of trust among nations through a collaborative, proactive approach with an emphasis on recognition,
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syslog and assistance makes the need for preventive military measures obsolete.
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The gradual move in this direction is the move towards just peace, which I have dubbed dubbed preventive non-intervention.
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Unlike the principled anti-interventionist arguments of the pacifist, this stance is anti-interventionist in a contingent sense.
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It is not necessarily against intervention per say.
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As, for instance, when intervention is the only option for pre-emptive reasons, it is against the way it is usually.
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It usually takes place or against its feasibility in a complicated and interdependent world.
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But this limited provision for pre-emption, when construed on the premise of just peace but not just war as argued above,
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would not provide the moral mandate and the slippery transition to preventive military measures in the name of peace and security.
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In other words, a just peace approach sanctifies the traditional Augustinian just will ban on
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anticipatory military measures in a way that the premise of just war cannot.
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A just peace initiative allows measured military response if needed,
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as the only option for self-defence or humanitarian reasons, either after an attack has occurred or when an attack is imminent.
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In the strictest sense of imminence require an interception when the offence is evidently erected.
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Arab irrevocable. I share Kant's critique of Grootes and Vettel's doctrine of just war, and the doctrines provide the pretext for justifying wars.
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My idea of global democracy as the Foundation for Peace is quite similar to Kant's
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vision of global of a global federation of Democratic or Republican states,
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like a universal civil society held together for peace and collective security,
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where each state retains all its sovereign rights except in the right to wage war.
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In such a justice based global democracy that strides towards inclusion, participation and empowerment.
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No member state would be considered an outlaw state. Hence, there would be no rogue states that can be targeted for preventive military strikes.
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This democratic global order would vastly increase the prospect of internal democratic reform within states in a peaceful manner a peaceful,
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sorry and peaceful manner with initiatives generated by the states themselves
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because of the privilege of recognition and membership in the global body.
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They would not like to compromise this position through failure, granting democratic rights to citizens.
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For inept states, they would be held from a common pool of funds for development assistance and building stable
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institutions without coercive conditions attached in such a collaborative global order.
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The rhetoric of military intervention for imposing democracy from without would ring hollow also.
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The idea of military strike against a group of subversive non-state actors in remote
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areas who are about to be shipping lethal virus for rape for release in populated areas.
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Alan Buchanan's hypothetical scenario for justifying preventive intervention would be an empty argument.
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If the actors are domestic terrorists, then the question of intervention in a sovereign state does not arise.
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And if they had known foreign terrorists. Then in a collaborative global order, the idea of intervention goes against the thrust of collaboration.
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There are numerous collaborative avenues for responding to such distant threats.
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A few comments. Just. Just passage.
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To not let becoming bitter about some of the ideas that we find in some of these authors.
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I did mention the idea for Rogue State. That's David Luban and David Luban.
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He has been writing important stuff on preventive war.
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He's very much against the idea in general of preventive intervention.
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But he makes a rather small.
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So he calls it small exception of intervention.
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Action in the case of a so-called rogue state, when there is imminent or obvious danger coming from that lawless state.
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Okay. Now, the problem is this. The global order is so tilted and so inequitable.
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It's very easy, as we know quite often, that powerful states or coalition of powerful states can easily, for the sake of global heads.
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They can target weaker states to try to find ways to intervene there, to control them, which has been happening quite often.
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It can never happen the other way round, even though we know that it's not the case that no type of threat happens from the point of view,
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from the sight of two powerful states to the involvement of the states.
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But it's always the case that the powerful states to target development states often in the name of the rhetoric of rogue states.
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Now it is this way, even when it comes to terrorism.
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Think about it. That's also a political rhetoric and propaganda district.
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Political rhetoric. Why so? Well, think about it.
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When just a few powerful states control the rest of the world through their military power for the sake of getting global resources,
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moving in their direction, uninterrupted on their terms.
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And they would like to maintain that status and privilege.
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By even using military means if needed, and without the United Nations Security Council approval,
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if they find it necessary, then the whole idea of who the terrorist states are and who are the who the rogue states are,
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that gets to be rather vague as we know or seems like it's a form of global terrorism
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that often the vulnerable states are held hostage by the power of the powerful states.
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Given this theme, then the question is not if Luban, David Luban leaves open the provision of the rogue state,
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that doesn't end up being a very small exception, as you like to put it.
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It could open up the room for all types of excuses for intervention.
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The way I want to show it here, that we have this idea of preventive non-intervention and down the road,
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I explained that a little bit more in the sense of just peace in a collaborative global order of inclusion,
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discourse, understanding and health, mutual help.
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Then, by definition, the idea of a rogue state is not that it's not just act.
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I mean, using or naturally rogue states happened when, as I mentioned at the beginning of this little essay, when there is deprivation,
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humiliation, neglect, all that once powerful and resourceful states tend to overcome some of these global inequity.
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The whole idea of rogue states where they could be viewed as possible dangerous doesn't that doesn't quite arise in that sense.
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So that's David you know I let it become is oh well this way if I get down and we can I'd like to also mention Michael Doyle and Michael Laughlin.
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Michael Walzer, early on in his classic restatement of the just war doctrine,
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has rather blurred the idea of imminence in what is or what could be an imminent danger.
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So much so that often people say that that's an example, perhaps, of intervention rather than pre-emption.
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And yet, Michael Walzer is extremely reluctant to call his idea interventionist.
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You'd like to use the word pre-emption. All true. So you might do that.
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But he has opened that way.
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And he, of course, has got to and others to show that he has his total support when it comes to his understanding of the last for doctrine.
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But Michael Doyle, in his so-called jurisprudence, Jewish jurisprudence of prevention,
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a very carefully articulated doctrine of of of of those rare cases when we may really need to think of prevention because we just can't wait.
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And how could
you do it so that something like the fiasco of the Iraq war, in the guise of the so-called Bush doctrine would not happen.
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He lays down quite a few procedure issues.
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He calls them both substantive and procedural.
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And it lists several wonderful lawyers about the the the extent of real danger of international law, of United Nations Security Council and all that.
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But it leaves room for unilateralism if needed.
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But that also has to be, in his judgement, based on what he calls the jurisprudence of prevention, meaning the carefully construed need.
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Do you really present it to the rest of the world that was needed?
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That's why the country is going in that direction based on this imminence immediate danger
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to its national security or a massacre of some sort in a country where people are helpless.
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Now, the point is this the moment goes in that direction.
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We understand his concern,
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and that's the concern of some of these extremely well-meaning international just folks here as contemporary industrial theorists like Michael Doyle,
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David Luban. And I'm getting to other countries shortly where we see that they're caught in this conundrum, in this conflict.
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On the one hand, we know that we can not simply promote war mongering and making provision for
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preventive war has invariably the inevitable direction of going in that direction.
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At the same time, that could be those occasions when unless we act, the consequences could be so catastrophic that it would be a disaster.
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In fact, Michael was the early on talks about, in the case of a civil civilizational challenge to our community,
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if we let something of this sort, like the Nazi danger to the allied forces happen, we have to respond.
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What do we need to know? Let problem is this with Michael Doyle.
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When he talks about assessing the severity of danger or finding that it truly passes the test of necessity and all that,
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who decides those things if there is a go alone provision in it?
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Because as Michael Walzer himself famously said, when it comes to existential threat, there is no such thing as legality.
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So it's a matter of, again, subject to an individual assessment.
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So a powerful nation, just as we are found all through, especially in recent times with the Bush Doctrine,
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even before that and even after George Bush term of practice is still continuing that what is happening is that all countries can,
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in the name of the global mandate, need it for its own national security, can claim a global mandate for its policies.
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And once we move in that direction, then we get back to where we have been.
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And Michael died. And in fact, I've had a conversation back and forth with him on that.
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And he is the one who wrote a wonderful endorsement of the book, and he nonetheless mentioned that, I understand you a fair go at everything.
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But the reason I tried to construe this jurisprudence of prevention is seriously because of this conundrum that we have to do something.
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Otherwise things might get out of hand, but we have to do it in such a careful fashion that it would be extremely limited.
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But he says that you are not the first one.
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I've been routinely hearing that this has this lead to the potential for something much more drastic, as we have found in the Bush Doctrine,
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even though it's the Bush doctrine that he has in mind to make sure that never happens again like that, like the Iraq war.
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And that direction is going on with a little bit. It's interesting.
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He is coming from the perspective of global justice, not from the perspective of.
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Sovereign equality. Sovereign equality that you find in Michael Walzer that you find in, but that you find not all.
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Michael Doyle Sovereign equality is a statist approach, statist approach.
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It's not a globalist approach. It's not cosmopolitan.
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And there is a state order that dictates the global policies.
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And we know that it's a very unique, inequitable order in statist order.
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Unfortunately, that's how things are in current international law.
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But kind of gets into the deeper issues of global unrest.
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And there he brings in the ideas of human rights violations.
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He brings in the ideas of deprivation, inequity, all that.
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And he says that those things need to be addressed to come up with what he calls a theory of global justice.
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Now, what's the difference between sovereign equality and global justice?
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Basically, this, as I just
mentioned a little bit already.
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Even when we have a word of sovereign equality,
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there could be inequity and human rights violations within states and a lot of resentment and all that, too, within states.
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Whereas in a world where global justice is operative along the line of peace, just peace is a highly idealised theory, of course, and presenting.
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And I would contrast that with the other side, the show where it's maybe idealised and maybe hard to really implement fully.
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But the other side is even harder to implement. And it just has it has had a track record, a proven disastrous failure, because given that,
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can't we do better, which is also a lot less costly and more effective?
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So that's the direction I'm going. So I wouldn't be cutting it.
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Even though he goes in the direction of just peace by promoting the idea of global justice.
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He does bring in this idea of a limited portion of provision for preventive intervention.
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The problem is this, and that's where I tend to show, he says,
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that it doesn't have to be intervention necessarily to attack country, but to intervene in some other sovereign places.
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But suppose in those cases, we find those non-state actors, rogue actors,
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about to ship the lethal virus into some populated area for their misguided ideas.
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What can we do?
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Well, my idea was that in a collaborative global governance, if we know there are known terrorists, and if they happen to be in our own country,
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then the question of preventive intervention by definition doesn't arise because we are not going to go any other countries.
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But if it's in some other country and if they're known terrorist activity, that's this idea that we know that they're about to do that.
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That in a collaborative global order,
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there are there are numerous opportunities to respond to that in a fashion where it's just a one sided flexing of muscles is not needed.
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That's the direction I'm going. So I'll make more comment on that.
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So where do you think the gradual emergence of the global human rights culture in the last 50 years is achieved?
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A certain level of international recognition for justice when there is an egregious violation of negative human rights
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with severe poverty and radical inequality in the socio economic arena are still not recognised as urgent human,
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urgent human rights concerns. This quote unquote holocaust of neglect perpetuates the issues.
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Demonstrating this holocaust of neglect perpetuates deprivation, destabilisation and violence, creating the presumed need for preventive intervention,
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whereas prevented non-intervention and practised as a systematic antidote to the inequity and neglect in the world,
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can take us beyond the need for preventive use of force effective non-military alternatives in the case of terrorism, policing,
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surveillance, diplomacy, education, international cooperation, recognising and meeting genuine grievances in the case of government.
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Persecution of its citizens. Diplomatic pressure.
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Non-violence. Coercive measures, including carefully developed sanctions aimed at the rulers rather than the ruled.
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Economic and financial measures aimed at dictators and legal sanctions against powerful perpetrators.
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These methods, though likely to be effective, are not guaranteed to fully succeed and are not easy to implement in practice.
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But the same is even more true with preventive war. Understanding the idea.
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This is the concluding notion. Understanding the idea of just peace can help us understand the seeming paradox of
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indifference leading to intervention and proactive engagement leading to non-intervention.
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What I'm sorry, I was I was suggesting to that we that we go on to David's comments and then we can have a discussion.
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And I know he has more things to add, but actually it's probably best to be moved on.
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Okay, David, thanks very much. And thanks so much, Dean, for coming along and for heroically persevering,
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despite the best effects of of of agents, biological agents to to intervene.
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I should also just mention that this event, as well as being hosted by ELAC,
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is also hosted by the Carnegie Council on Ethics and International Affairs in New York,
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and particularly by the Global Ethics Network, of which the three of us, Dean, Cheney, myself, are members.
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This event is also a part of the Global Ethics Network, a set of other events and initiatives.
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So very, very briefly, I maybe just will make a couple of comments before handing over to Charlie and then go to discussion.
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And I wanted to, rather than commenting specifically on, on Dean's proposals, because I'm very,
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very much in in support of the idea of moving towards some conception of just war.
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And I think it's very interesting what this is. Sorry, I've just piece I think it's very interesting that this is one of a number of context
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in which scholars are in many different ways trying to move beyond just war paradigms.
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So rather than responding specifically to that,
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I thought I would just try and situate very briefly the debate about pre-emption in the context of a broader
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debate about how we understand human rights and particularly the conditions for forfeiture of human rights.
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So the assumption that I'm going to make is that any kind of war, pre-emptive or not unilateral,
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multilateral or U.N. authorised that a basic precondition for any justified war is going to be that the persons,
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the enemy combatants that you use force against do not, in the relevant sense, have the right not to have force used against them.
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So in the techniques that we say that they are liable to the use of force.
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So one of the one of the ways of phrasing the question about pre-emption then, is to situate it in the context of a broader set of questions,
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which is about how ideas of proximity effect our conception of the rights that
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persons have and the conditions under which they lose or forfeit rights.
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So we might think about the questions about pre-emption as being questions about temporal proximity, right?
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So the distance in time that an agent is from an attack and we might want to look at this in the context of other
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proximity relationships and the effect that they have on the response of rights and responsibilities of agents.
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So we might want to think about three different contexts where these proximity questions arise.
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So one of these would be in the context of what we might call social relational proximity.
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So the idea here is that certain kinds of rights and responsibilities increase or have a greater stringency,
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the closer social relationship to that agent, or as we're familiar with,
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the idea that you can have greater responsibilities of care to our children than we do to strangers,
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greater responsibilities of care to perhaps our friends,
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colleagues occur nationals potentially than we do to strangers who do not share those relationships.
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Another set of issues may have to do with the effect that spatial proximity has to our rights and responsibilities.
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And again, there is some intuitive force to the idea that spatial proximity can indeed have
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an effect on the rights and responsibilities that we bear towards other agencies.
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This, of course,
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was famously denied by Peter Singer and his and his paper on famine and affluence with the example of the child and the and the fountain.
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And so the debate about pre-emption can be seen in the context of this as it as a debate, as also debate about the effects of proximity.
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But here, what we're worried about is not social relational, relational proximity.
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So spatial proximity, it's temporal proximity. But what's different about this context compared with the other two are a couple of different things.
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The first one is that. It seems to relate to negative duties, duties not to harm in the way that relational proximity and spatial proximity,
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to the extent that they are persuasive, seem to only relate to duties to assist.
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Right. So we don't believe that we have any less of an obligation not to actively harm somebody a very, very long way away from us in another country,
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someone who is not socially related to us, but arguably we do in terms of duties to assist the temporal.
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The temporal proximity questions are interesting because they precisely relate to questions of duties not to harm.
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They're also different in the sense that there are two dimensions to the temporal proximity question.
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So we ask the question both about the temporal distance after a wrongful attack, and we ask questions about which is the.
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And we ask questions, which is the pre-emptive question about the proximity prior to the attack.
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Right. So so pre-emption, we ask, are we permitted to use defensive force a considerable period of time before the attack actually occurs?
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But is a symmetrical set of questions, which is what are our permissions to use, as it were,
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a defensive force against a person who is responsible for a past wrongful attack.
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So you might think, for example, about the case of a person who
wrongfully attacks me.
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He tries to kill me, but he fails to kill me. That leaves me with a dangerous weather, with a wound.
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And a year later, that wound becomes infected, flares up, and it threatens to kill me.
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And the only way that I could save myself would be by killing the original aggressor, taking out his organ, and transplanting it into me.
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So the question is, does the fact that this the temporal proximity is now a year later, does that make a difference to the defence of rights?
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And intuitively, I think a lot of people think, yeah, it does make a difference if you if you can use force in that context.
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At the very least, perhaps the force is less that you can use and maybe it's for different reasons as well.
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So that's proximity after the effect. Pre-emption is different again, because we're asking about the the temporal proximity prior to the attack.
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And one of the things that a number of people have said is that the proximity itself isn't doing any of the work.
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What's really doing the work is conceptions of necessity or, as Dean put it, conceptions of certainty.
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So it's something that Jeff McMahon has argued in a number of places. It's like that.
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The length of time itself is irrelevant. The temporal proximity is just a proxy for whether it's necessary to engage in the defence of
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force against the person who at some later point in time will in fact harm you ingesting.
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No, I think that can't be right. And one way to see that is to think about examples like this one.
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All right. So imagine that I'm looking at my nemesis through a high powered telescope,
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and I can see that he's in my study and he's reading through a series of my papers.
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And one of those papers is a letter written by May to his wife, proving that I've been unfaithful with his wife.
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And I know based on his character, that as soon as he sees that letter, he is almost 100% certain,
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as soon as we can be to fly into a homicidal rage, in effect, to act upon that.
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So I know that in a very short period of time, he will, in fact, form and act upon a murderous intention.
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And I'm sitting there with my high powered rifle and I can shoot that person.
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So the question is, is necessity in that case sufficient?
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And most people would say, no, it's not necessity itself.
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It's not all that's doing the work. There's something deeper there, which is about agency and responsibility.
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So one of the thoughts that you might have is, well, the temporal condition is in part a requirement that there is a genuine act which is sufficient
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to ground responsibility for the unjust harm in the agent against whom one uses defensive force.
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Now, that's, again, in a way, a form of scepticism against the idea that it's proximity itself alone that's doing the work.
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But I think it still gives a closer reading to that than the one that ties it, particularly to necessity.
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And one of the worries that you might have, particularly about notions of pre-emptive preventive war in this case,
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is that the agency and responsibility requirements, if that's what we think they are, seem very,
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very marginally and problematically to be met in cases of pre-emptive, certainly preventive,
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and I think even in many cases a pre-emptive war, because one might worry here about whether what you have is pre-emption against.
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To put it crudely, the wrong moral agents. Right. So you have a state that is engaged in some forms of.
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Active preparation for a wrongful aggression, let's say, against another body.
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Now we ask the question, then, Will who amongst the agents within that state have taken the steps sufficient to assume
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responsibility for a wrongful attack such that they might be appropriate objects of defensive force?
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Well, it seems pretty clear that the agents that we're going to identify by asking that question
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will be at the very most members of the government and members of the senior leadership.
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The ordinary members of the the armed forces are doing what they always do.
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They are training, preparing in a state of readiness.
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But those if we think about it in the model of a criminal conspiracy, they don't seem to have taken that active step where they look like, in a sense,
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the person reading through the letter,
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we may have reasonable certainty that they will at some point in the future be actively involved in a wrongful attack.
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But until they themselves have taken that step of agency, it seems very,
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very hard to understand how they themselves could have that liability to
defensive force.
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Let me leave it there and maybe pick up on some of those things.
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Well, we want to invite comments.
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I'll begin with one or two of my own. I think that they're very interesting philosophical issues about pre-emption and prevention.
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You run into almost all of them in domestic law in the United States, in the law of self-defence involving what's called the battered spouse issue.
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And these are cases where women have good reason to believe that their life is in danger.
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And how much can they act?
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In particular, can they use lethal force against someone without an imminent threat, etcetera, etcetera, as preventive pre-emption?
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So I think the issues that David is raising and those raised in the literature about the rights and liability to attack are fascinating issues.
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I have to say, quite frankly, they have nothing to do with international affairs as far as I can see.
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The problem that people who believe in preventive war or pre-emptive war is giving us many examples of where we can,
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but in the most minimal sense agree that it was justified. Interestingly, when you study the battered spouse problem,
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almost every case you read about that there's one where you're sympathetic to the spouse on some level that she had good reason after she did.
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The problem is, is that the discussion of pre-emptive war and preventive war is now under the shadow of the invasion of Iraq.
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And someone, it seems to me, to make a case for is going to have to show why this is not just something that we can imagine justified,
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but can be justified in the real world, because the way the discussion often goes, as well as so that the President is not George W Bush,
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but an enlightened, nice guy with only good intentions.
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Assume that the U.S. military is not the institution that it is, but something that has only justice on its side.
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Assume that we have perfect knowledge of the threat and assume that the sea has turned to lemonade, gas and Somalia stuck.
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Okay, we have rules like this, like no prevention because we live in the real world.
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We have rules about police not doing things because we live in the real world.
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And I think that that's part of the debate here, is how much some of these domestic arguments map onto the international case.
389
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:07,800
I think Dean's suggestion is is just peace is great.
390
00:50:07,810 --> 00:50:14,140
It seems to me that what he's basically suggesting is disconnecting sovereignty from armed violence.
391
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:21,920
The modern state system arose with the notion of what it meant to be a sovereign state, just was to be able to employ armed violence.
392
00:50:22,270 --> 00:50:25,510
And it seems to me that we're moving actually not towards a world.
393
00:50:25,810 --> 00:50:33,219
I think we still need sovereignty, along with moving towards as a world in which sovereignty is disconnected from our own violence.
394
00:50:33,220 --> 00:50:39,070
And that's part of what I hear in the kind of federalist model that they suggest, and that seems to be very attractive.
395
00:50:40,090 --> 00:50:43,630
So with that, I'll invite comments.